#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-03-31

wpwraksigh. yet another day of failing infrastructure. first my ISP goes dead for 4+ hours. then my mail server is unreachable.00:41
wpwrakinteresting. my cry of joy when the ISP came up for a moment (just to go down for some more minutes) made it out00:43
wpwraktuxbrain: (important mail) i don't know how long it will take for almesberger.net to be back up. werner@openmoko.org should work until then.01:16
kristianpaul"I don't understand this problem, but I'm hoping it's fixed enough now."04:11
Action: kristianpaul looks at wpwrak 04:11
kristianpaulI'm getting the same error on my debian stable mipsel..04:11
kristianpaulI wonder if you solved it?04:12
Action: kristianpaul checking mesa versions04:16
kyakmth: i think you can just do it :)05:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: (on debian stable mipsel) you're running heekscad on mipsel ?05:40
wpwrakyay, mail flows again05:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: enlarged USB positioning pin hole; general cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f4342f406:40
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: bumped PCB and fab version numbers to 110330, for consistency with atusb http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7e5123406:40
panda|x201wolfspraul, oh, yeah ~09:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/INFO: corrected island size of QFN32-VHHD-2 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ae1aa610:01
kyaki totally agree10:56
kyaka fucked up day10:56
whitequarkoh. that was not intentional :/10:57
Jay7hehe :)10:59
Jay7+1 to sentence above10:59
kyak=5<=>3> ?@02>A;02=>3> C=8:>40 =8:>340 =5 ?><5H05B ;)11:00
whitequarkthe combination of crappy wifi, huge packet loss, irssi and wrong keyboard layout isn't very good11:03
C-Keenwhitequark: that's the source of the best conversations :)11:04
kyakrule of a thumb: when your terminal is stuck, whatever you do, don't press Enter :)11:07
whitequarkkyak: you can do ~. in ssh session, that escape sequence drops it immediately, but it only works following a newline11:08
whitequarkand N is ~. in russian layout11:09
kyakwhitequark: it's ok, i don't blame you :)11:11
whitequarkwell, I guess most of people on this channel don't know what these symbols mean...11:20
wpwraktuxbrain: you'll like this: http://www.google.com/+1/button/11:44
tuxbrainwpwrak: yeah! +1 powa!13:48
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: MIPS: JZ4740: Convert to new irq functions http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/e7c93ce13:56
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: MIPS: JZ4740: GPIO: Use common irq chip for all gpios http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/bd6196113:56
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: MIPS: JZ4740: Set one-shot feature flag for the clockevent http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/b0a533613:56
tuxbrainhey rusian faction whitequark, Jay7, kyak , and other custom wise, and ok and wolfspraul you too :P , now seriously  a rusian nanonoter   need our help please http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/007644.html14:01
Jay7tuxbrain: there is small possibility for me to attend on LinuxTag14:04
Jay7I can try to bring it there.. but I'm still unsure14:05
Jay7well, I should go now14:06
Jay7afk for some hours14:06
whitequarktuxbrain: regarding the nanonote, there really is a law which forbids importing of unauthorized crypto devices14:56
whitequarkbut for NN, this is not the case AFAIK, as that law only applies to _hardware_ crypto devices14:57
whitequarkthere is no AES/etc. in processor itself, and no wireless devices or others which include crypto cores14:57
whitequarkso, while I'm of course not a lawyer, it should not require any action for sharism to distribute NNs in russia14:58
whitequarkin this particular case, it's probably just greedy customs wanting a bribe14:59
wpwrakwhitequark: seems that someone didn't get the drift15:03
wpwrakwhitequark: atben/atusb will be fun. they have AES in the transceiver. luckily, even the US .gov has realized that this isn't a treat to them and have lifted the export restrictions that existed previously for that chip. (last time i checked, they still had them for quite similar chips from TI)15:04
whitequarkwpwrak: I'm sure they know perfectly what is really legal and illegal. they just want more money15:07
whitequarkregarding the atben. i don't know much about export restrictions, and the bad thing here is import ones. basically they do it because they want to know that there is a way to decrypt anything you'll transmit in reasonable time15:09
whitequarki think that ssh with a certain key length is technically illegal too15:09
wpwrakwhitequark: good luck enforcing that ;-)15:10
whitequarkanyway, all these restrictions aren't there to prevent illegal activites. they exist just to get a reason to blame someone15:10
whitequarki.e. "everyone is criminal"15:11
whitequarksomething like that15:11
whitequarkwpwrak: there are more problems with wireless modules. unless you are using an already-done wireless part, you'll need to get a certificate for it15:11
whitequarkin US/Europe you need "FCC Approved" mark too AFAIK15:12
wpwrakit seems that you can bypass import restrictions in many cases by labeling such things as "kits" (i.e., unfinished)15:14
whitequarkregarding the AES, well, no one is bothered about that. probably the people you'll work with here won't know what AES is15:14
whitequarkhm. it should work in the ISM band then, I guess15:14
wpwrakit probably also helps to keep the (declared and intuitive) value low15:14
rohwhitequark: ignore us exports. just import only.15:14
wpwrakit's ISM, yes. 2.4 GHz15:14
whitequarkwpwrak: well, you can actually sell them as kits, why not?:) it's fun soldering smd rf parts!15:15
wpwrakwhitequark: that would be one choice ;-) heh, tuxbrain, are you listening ? maybe keep a few parts kits for really difficult cases :)15:18
wpwrakwhitequark: perhaps the absence of a case and instead a pack of silicone would make it plausible enough that it is truly a kit. of course, the RF side would be all made and tested ...15:19
whitequarkwpwrak: selling a board separately from case, huh. that's truly russian way of solving such problems15:21
wpwrakwhitequark: i take this as meaning "clever, ingenious" :)15:24
whitequarkthis too, of course. but the main meaning of that phrase is "a clever (and a little absurd) solution which was only required because of meaningless, and perfectly absurd, problem which came out of stupidity"15:27
wpwraksounds perfectly fine to me :)15:28
wpwrakwe have that sort of stuff in argentina as well. once, i made the mistake of trying to mail-order some gadget (a sharp zaurus) with payment from my bank account in argentina. first of all, whenever money crosses the border, this is not something one can do just via e-banking. no, you have to go to the bank for this.15:29
whitequarkthat's even funny... first several times. it isn't when practically everything is done that way15:29
whitequarkyou can encounter a whole stack of absurd problems, depending on each other and first on the last15:30
wpwraksecond, in this case, you actually have to go to the bank's office for foreign commerce (i.e., not just to the next branch office), fill out something like four forms, and present them a quote for the purchase. furthermore, you have to return to the bank once you have received the goods, and show them the customs forms, so that they can verify that you did indeed use this for an import, and close the transaction.15:31
wpwraknow, in this case, there was a snag. the product wasn't available anymore. so the distributor returned my payment. unfortunately, it came from a different account than the one to which i had paid. the bank refused to accept these two as "matching". so they requested some additional verification (forgot what that was), but then considered that also this wasn't enough.15:34
wpwrakin the end, we worked out the following deal: they would unblock the returned payment, i would then withdraw this, go to another bank, buy a cheque denominated in yen (that's what the original payment had been in) for the original amount, then go back to my bank, and they would cash the cheque and cancel/resolve the transaction.15:35
wpwraklesson learned: never use an account in argentina for such transactions. instead, usw an account money abroad, where all this is done with a mouse click.15:36
kyaktuxbrain: the guy has only one option - go to the customs office himself and fight-fight-fight, and hope for the luck15:43
kyakknock the doors, write claims and so on15:44
tuxbrainkyak, Jay7, whitequark I'm also pushing on my side, with the UPS and my local courier at my side as angry costumer, last time I had problems of this kind, finally I was able to convince autorities NN was a fucking dictionary, let's see If I succed this time again.17:02
wpwraktuxbrain: which country was this ?17:10
wpwrakJay7: your ben ? :)17:12
Jay7no, my ben come from CELF17:12
Jay7w/o any problems but delivery was 2 month17:13
wpwrakJay7: a problem in itself :)17:13
Jay7problem is in russian customs law and customs people17:14
Jay7e.g. it may be stolen on customs17:14
Jay7so tuxbrain is lucky because he got NN back17:14
Jay7only really working way is delivery with some relative :)17:15
Jay7someone who flight from spain to russia e.g.17:16
wpwrakJay7: seems that in the current case, the prospective owner will cross the border often, and expects to be searched.17:16
wpwrakJay7: not sure how realistic this assumption is. do russian customs really go through your luggage looking for undeclared cryptographical devices ?17:17
Jay7wpwrak: not your luggage17:17
wpwrakJay7: around here, they're mainly interested in valuables or drugs.17:18
Jay7if your parcel contain something which may do crypto it going to hold17:18
wpwrakJay7: so traveling shouldn;t be an issue then17:18
Jay7waiting one month for some 'notification' (possible only for organization, not for physical person)17:19
wpwrakJay7: yeah, similar to argentina. ship anything with a power cord and it's likely to cause trouble. carry it with you and nobody cares.17:19
Jay7if there was no notification, they are sent parcell back17:19
Jay7wpwrak: they are CRAZY17:19
wpwrakJay7: "broker" = the guy who arranges the bribe, correct ?17:19
Jay7I have no better words :)17:19
Jay7wpwrak: kind of :)17:19
whitequarkJay7: so are you from russia too?17:19
wpwrakJay7: you;d feel right at home in argentina ;-)17:20
Jay7almost all customs brockers have some ways to go through customs but with some bribe :)17:20
Jay7whitequark: yes :)17:20
Jay7wpwrak: hm.. I like that country more and more :))17:20
wpwrakJay7: we have better weather ;-)17:21
Jay7sure :)17:21
Jay7wpwrak: what about some job for opensource guys? :)17:23
Jay7in argentina I mean :)17:23
Jay7I've talked with lawyer btw some time ago17:24
Jay7official import of anything will increase price about 50-200%17:25
Jay7so.. no way17:25
whitequarkJay7: how do you think, would the 'kit' trick work?17:27
Jay7whitequark: may be.. something like developer kit, developer sample or (as tuxbrain said) dictionary17:28
whitequarkI mean, for the RF parts17:28
whitequarkto aviod certification17:28
wpwrakJay7: (open source jobs) locally, the situation is piss-poor. but you have the internet ...17:28
Jay7you shouldn't do certification if you have no plan for sale17:29
Jay7wpwrak: .. then I may work from any place of the world :)17:29
wpwrakJay7: (official import) 50% doesn't sound all bad. around here, we have about 50% of import taxes. consumer electronics are often sold at about twice the US price, sometimes more. nice margins, wouldn't you say so ? :)17:30
Jay7wpwrak: same thing here17:30
whitequarkJay7: I thought tuxbrain was going to sell them. not for profit, probably, but that still counts as sale17:30
wpwrakJay7: (any place of the world) that's basically what I do ;-)17:30
Jay7whitequark: I have no prob with certification17:30
wpwrakwhitequark: i very much hope he does make some profit :)17:31
Jay7and personally I have no prob with crypto notification17:31
Jay7I'm just lucky seems :)17:32
whitequarkwpwrak: sure :)17:33
tuxbrainwhitequark: don't guet confused I love copyleft hardware philosophy but I'm doing this for profit than will one day eventually apear some place :P17:48
tuxbrainBtw what do you thing is the cripto they have detected in NN?17:49
tuxbrainlars_: ouch!17:54
wpwrakrot13 ... no, it doesn't have that :)17:55
Jay7tuxbrain: they are looking for possible crypto application of device17:57
Jay7i.e. if device have CPU capable to run some crypto code it may be decided as crypto device17:58
Jay7they are crazy as I said before17:58
whitequarktuxbrain: practically that's better imo. when one's going to make profit, he usually does things much better than some fanatic :)17:58
Jay7sure there are some non-crazy people who doens't holding things w/o real crypto apps17:59
Jay7but you know.. there are some crazy people who doing this17:59
whitequarkJay7: is that true? I've never heard of _that_ stupidity, and that looks like ravings of a madman17:59
whitequarkI mean, about 'possible crypto uses'18:00
Jay7whitequark: I'm sure they have some devices list/categories18:00
kristianpaulwow https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:World_Map_Index_of_perception_of_corruption_2010.svg18:00
Jay7but I'm sure any embedded motherboard may be hold on customs as possible crypto device18:00
Jay7as any PDA, phone, etc18:01
Jay7but most of wide-used devices already have 'notifications'18:01
Jay7so they have no problems18:01
Jay7new or non-wide-used devices have problems usually18:01
whitequarkphones are already certified crypto devices18:01
whitequarkas most modern pdas have wifi/gsm module, they should be too18:02
whitequarkbtw, the map is impressive18:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: (corruption) those lame colombians :)18:03
kristianpaullol ;)18:03
whitequarkany turing-complete cpu may run some crypto code, hm. and you can get a turing machine with your brain, pen and a piece of paper. they definitely should forbid all of the above18:04
Jay7we have lot of laws that are actively used only for bribes taking18:04
Jay7e.g. law about personal data security18:04
Jay7it have nothing common with real data security18:04
Jay7you just should buy special software/hardware or pay for certifications18:05
Jay7good is that small business are out of area of interest :)18:06
kristianpaulhmm rusia have same paypal issue like in colombia (not allowed to receive money)18:09
rmhey kristianpaul18:12
rmwhat was the question again18:12
kristianpaultuxbrain: sent a Nanonote toa  guy in rusia18:13
kristianpaulas this is a microcomputer that have a cryptographic software installed by default18:14
rmok... aaand18:14
kristianpaulNanonote will come back to spain18:14
rmdo you have a confirmation it is declined by customs?18:15
kristianpaulFSB/customs seems have laws about this stuff18:15
rmor are you just guessing18:15
kristianpaulno no, tuxbrain drop a mail18:15
kristianpaulsecond i'll find archive18:15
kristianpaulrm: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/007644.html18:16
kristianpaulSo i wonder how do you get the lemote, or if you have some recomendation/tought with this issue18:16
kristianpaulTHe goal will be dmitry get his nanonote18:17
kristianpaulrm: are you in russia right? :-)18:17
rmI never heard of any such problems18:19
kristianpauloh, really :o18:19
rmpeople in russia order devices like Chinese iPads by 1000s18:19
kristianpaulSo what you think happened?18:19
lars_wpwrak: tr A-Za-z N-ZA-Mn-za-m18:19
rmand we were purchasing Lemotes in 3 separate shipments, no problems with either of those18:20
rmand one person received Efika MX too18:20
rmetc etc etc18:20
kristianpaulokay, please stay here, i'll sure more question will rise about this topic18:21
rmis the guy also here?18:21
kristianpaulyou think is better ship the nanonote from china instead of spain  may be?18:21
rmso my suggestion for now is to not use UPS18:22
wpwraklars_: you ... crypto-terrorist !!!18:22
rmLemotes were shipped using EMS18:22
rmand other products I mentioned routinely come by regular post18:22
rm(with tracking)18:23
kristianpaulAny toughs about UPS  there?18:23
rmalso I would suggest to not send him a refund18:23
rmuntil QI actually gets the device back18:23
rmhow do you know what he says is even true18:23
kristianpauli dunno, tuxbrain may explain that later18:24
Jay7rm: I have no such problems before too18:24
Jay7but I know people who can't get some device because there is no 'notification' on customs18:25
tuxbrainrm no but I can suggest him to connect,  whatever I have talked directly with that guy, tomorrow I will recive answer from UPS, so you suggest better regular post better than UPS in case of Rusia?18:25
Jay7I've missed18:26
Jay7tuxbrain: was it UPS?18:26
rmnot sure18:26
tuxbrainI will also ask the guy if the have any document about that rejection from customs.18:26
Jay7UPS doesn't doing delivery to physical persons in Russia iirc18:26
rmbut I believe UPS is by far the less common method of shipment to Russia18:27
wpwrakfedex are usually quite good at avoiding the minor annoyances18:27
rmusually it's either the regular post, or EMS18:27
rmand perhaps both of those know special tricks on how to work with customs18:27
rmrather, EMS knows18:27
tuxbrainmmmm ok I will take this in acount on next shipment18:27
rmand the regular just has a huge volume18:27
rmand is not looked through too strictly18:27
rmthat's just guesses18:28
Jay7yes, I got my NN here via regular post18:28
Jay7and efika mx via fedex18:28
Jay7but I'll prefer EMS this time just because of speed18:29
Jay7well.. because of regular post slow speed :)18:29
rohthat sounds kinda interresting18:47
tuxbrainroh wow yes it is :)19:17
rohdidnt read these slides but sounds fitting...19:23
virichm some times I forget to join the channel20:24
tuxbrainroh I have readed the slides, and well... the first one seems more interesting than second one, take note on the "seems" due I have really not understand nothing from the first one , the second one CoRE, is about the aplication level and I have understand it slightly better and I found it a little "light" but I don't know if it's because there is no real specification yet or because of the author want's to keep it as it is for coherence with the targ21:09
tuxbrainet audience21:09
tuxbrainwpwrak: which is the distance btwenn pins on the atusb-prg? yes I can try to print a atusb on paper and mesure it but I'm a fucking lazy spaniard21:12
rohthe chip on that chibiduino board seems the same like on the atben/usb21:13
rohwell.. its the 'old' version 230 not 231.. but i think they were pin-compatible.21:14
rohin the end they should be able to communicate with each other.. so that board is like a perfect fit if people want to build own stuff to talk to the atben or atusb21:15
rohdunno how easy these boards are available. or if it makes sense to order a larger number to europe from japan21:15
rohi guess these guys have other problems there right now. i dont dare to even mail him right now. akihaba hackspace in tokyo does support-work right now. building and giving out solar lamps and such21:16
tuxbrainauch japanish? I though they where US... japan customs are also a nighmare ....21:16
tuxbrainroh: oh man...:( I will keep an eye on updates to see if they publish that list of needed items and if I can help in some way.... a 10% of happened there happens in spain, riots and madness and robbery had caused more victims than the event itself ... I admire japanish people...21:34
tuxbraina 10%-> if a 10%21:34
rohtuxbrain: true.21:37
rohyet i was very happy when i got note of my friends there being on a plane to the us21:37
rohtook quite some work to get them to leave21:37
wpwraktuxbrain: (atusb-pgm) 100 mil. see also ben-wpan/atusb-pgm/ :-)21:40
wpwraktuxbrain: if sharism.cc won't do any production of ben-wpan, then adam should send you his samples. they include two atusb-pgm boards.21:41
wpwrakroh: (230 vs. 231) they're not exactly pin compatible but very similar. the 230 has a few quirks that have been solved in the 231. e.g., that an incoming new frame can overwrite an old frame that's not been retrieved yet.21:43
tuxbrain100 mil=100 milimeters? I don't think so... what unit is mil.21:47
wpwraktuxbrain: units 100mil mm21:48
tuxbrainwpwrak: (atusb-pgm boards) ok for me but just one is enough21:48
wpwraktuxbrain: mayme you know them as "thou". the australians call them that way. in the us and most other places, it's mil, though21:49
wpwraktuxbrain: (atusb-pgm) you want a backup for when it breaks :)21:49
tuxbrainwpwrak: I will make my machine then :P21:50
tuxbrainwpwrak: equivalence in milimeters please ...21:51
wpwraktuxbrain: 1 mil = 1/1000 inch; 100 mil = 2.54 mm21:51
tuxbrainok so practically the standar distantance that now undestand why has such fancy amount :)21:53
wpwrakyeah ;-)21:53
wpwrakyou also get 6, 8, 10, etc. mil traces and such21:54
steve|mwpwrak: thanks by the way regarding the mini usb lib, worked fine21:55
tuxbrainthere are plenty of pins  on my shelf and also protoboards (those to solder with holes) with such distance so I can make my own , the led +resistor has only the function to aknowledge something is happening isn't it? we can live without that if needed.21:57
wpwraksteve|m: great ! :)21:57
wpwraktuxbrain: yes, you don't need the led. of course, it helps if you can see when things are done without having to look at the pc/ben.21:58
wpwraktuxbrain: btw, how many atusb will you ask the pcb fab to make ?22:00
tuxbrainnow they are multiple of 10 :)22:01
wpwrakokay, good22:02
wpwraktuxbrain: you'll also need the samples adam has for setting up the testing process22:06
tuxbrainwpwrak: yes that would be good22:07
tuxbrainI will have my wpan NN ! yay!22:07
wpwraktuxbrain: for testing, what equipment will you have access to ? voltmeter, oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, usrp, vector signal analyzer/generator, ... ?22:07
wpwraktuxbrain: you should just get everything adam has (i.e., 2 atben, 2 atusb, and 2 atusb-pgm). you can always send him some production units later.22:08
tuxbrainthat's for sure :) his falcon eye can see things that we can just imagine :P22:09
tuxbrainfalcon or better said elf :)22:10
wpwraktuxbrain: he hasn't commented on the boards yet. so i guess he's really overloaded and didn't have time to look at them yet, or he didn't spot any obvious problems.22:25
tuxbrainI think the first one is very probable, but we can't also dismiss your blacksmith skills :)22:29
tuxbrainwpwrak:(equipment) hahahahaahahahaahah22:36
tuxbrainwpwrak: ah no , are you talking seriously?22:36
wpwraktuxbrain: well, was kidding about the vector signal thingy. they tend to be expensive. think sports car. pricy sports car, not just some cheap BMW ;-)22:37
tuxbrainok volmeter.... and ..... a volmeter.... and.... yes is the same volmeter22:38
wpwraktuxbrain: but for the rest, what do you have access to ? (own / can borrow / they have it at the smt fab)22:38
tuxbrainI will ask smt fab, they "invite" me to their instalations to record the mounting process of the boards with the cam22:39
wpwraktuxbrain: (invite) excellent. it's also good if you can test at least some board immediately when they come off the line. that way, you can spot mistakes that might just trash the entire run.22:40
tuxbrainbut even having access to the devices... I don't have idea on how to use them, I had used an osciloscope once about 15 years ago22:41
wpwraktuxbrain: oh dear ;-) do you know people who have such things, either at home, at work, at their university, ... ?22:41
wpwraktuxbrain: an oscilloscope would be useful for detecting why a problem board fails. there are a few typical patterns you can spot easily (i.e., within seconds)22:42
tuxbrainthey are funny things with a bright green dot than somtimes move22:42
tuxbrainand a lot of buttons22:42
wpwraktuxbrain: modern scope have that big "auto" button that does all the setup for you. works most of the time ;-)22:43
wpwraktuxbrain: now, a spectrum analyzer or usrp would be useful for checking RF performance. you can also use an atben/atusb for that, but it's a lot more convenient with a spectrum analyzer22:44
wpwrak(usrp can act as a spectrum analyzer. if you know people at a university or at companies that do RF R&D, you may want to ask them if they have an analyzer or an usrp)22:46
tuxbrainOk I have some candidates that can have some of that :)22:46
tuxbrainI will ask them22:47
wpwrakthey would also know how to operate it. since your run is small, there shouldn't be a problem for them to let you spend a few hours in their lab.22:47
Action: tuxbrain is sleepy22:48
rohyay. friday. weekend22:49
tuxbraingn8 guys, I will dream with green bright stripes and a alot of unknown and magical terms like spectrum and megaherz22:49
wpwrakgigahertz ! :)22:51
wpwrakroh: weekday, weekend, it's all a blur, isn't it ? :)22:51
tuxbrain2400 MegaHerz :P22:51
rohwpwrak: depends22:51
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