#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-03-27

kristianpaulha !!00:04
kristianpaulthansk to Clifford Kelley, i confirm00:04
kristianpaul1). I'm using same compresion format (two  4 bits in a byte)00:04
kristianpaul2). Decimation is not needed, or can even be considered00:05
kristianpaul3). Byte orientation is bytewise00:06
kristianpaulNow i should take a look at the  correlation subroutine00:06
kristianpaulfyi osgps is the only "soft" correlator that dint ask me for SIMD :-)00:09
rmhello all01:02
rmyes :)01:03
rmkristianpaul, do you also work on nanonote?)01:04
kristianpaulyup :-)01:04
rmI wanted to ask, does anyone know if there are Desktop PC (nettop?) available, which would use the XBurst SoC01:04
kristianpauli think there are01:05
kristianpaulbut not freed01:05
kristianpaulI remenber tuxbrain have one?01:05
kristianpaulrm: ie http://ur1.ca/3oj1r01:08
kristianpaulbut i dont remenber if is same as one from tuxbrain01:08
rmI do not see such a thing at tuxbrain01:09
rmkristianpaul, I mean not netbook01:09
kristianpaulbtw there are other people from russia here01:09
kristianpaulrm: ah sorry, what you mean then?01:10
kristianpaulah nettop01:10
rmbut a box that would only connect to external monitor+keyboard+mouse01:10
kristianpauldunno :/01:10
kristianpaulmay be ask ingenic directly?01:11
rme.g. see this one: http://www.genesi-usa.com/products/efika01:11
rmbut that one is on a different CPU, not ingenic01:12
rmand it uses a proprietary GPU01:12
rmrequiring either 'many megabytes' of proprietary code, or using just the fbdev01:12
kristianpaulhe, well ingenic is not very about his video aceleration in his soc either ;)01:13
rmand our yeeloong doesn't *have* any acceleration to begin with01:14
rmso no problem here :D01:14
rmok, I'll idle here for a bit, while I'll go get some sleep01:15
kristianpaulyou are wellcome !01:15
rmbye :)01:15
kristianpaulha,!! first time osgps run and seems to analize something :D01:16
kristianpaulrm: if you want a more close free cpu, you can buy a Milkymist One ;)01:20
kristianpaulalso it have vga out, mouse and keyboard if you need it :-)01:21
rjeffrieskristianpaul and others: how difficult to port Nanonote system to http://ur1.ca/3oj1r maybe ignoring wifi at first01:43
rjeffriesrm the Seagate Dockstar (no longer manufactured) use Marvel SOC (ARM) has good linux support and is cheap(!!)01:44
kristianpaul1 year more?..01:44
kristianpaulsame as nanote if you have similar people behind the effort01:45
kristianpaulmoment, a sample rate is defined by a TCXO..01:47
kristianpaulin Mhz and not in MSPS..01:48
kristianpaulhmm sample clock01:52
kristianpaulthats sound better01:52
kristianpaulsample rate clock01:52
wolfspraulDocScrutinizer: he :-) welcome back!05:24
DocScrutinizero/ :-D05:25
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: heya, been a long time ! :)05:35
DocScrutinizeryeah, adore my uptime. The channel is still on autojoin05:36
wpwrakwow, then it's mightly long indeed :)05:37
DocScrutinizer07:34am  up 185 days 15:0705:38
DocScrutinizerfeels like I never moved my fat arse outa this seat since05:39
wpwrakstarted skinny, now it must be too fat to move. do you have acquired moons already ? :)05:40
DocScrutinizerthe pizza service here is abysmal, so no chance to grow fat(ter) while watching this idiotic LCD05:41
Action: DocScrutinizer sighs when reading "gta04/diversity" in http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2008-June/002987.html05:58
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: better read the tail-between-the-legs statement that "you can't 'make' hardware" and then see how far we've come already06:10
DocScrutinizerwho stated that?06:12
DocScrutinizerand who's "you"? ;-D06:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: sean had a presentation on openmoko scheduled for i think it was just after the first bloodletting. at a conference in switzerland, if i remember right. and there he made a statement in that sense. i probably got the wording wrong, though.06:14
DocScrutinizeraah, by "you" he meant OM mgmt ;-P06:15
DocScrutinizerI.E. self()06:15
wpwrakwith the implied assertion of universality. it's all Kant in a way ;-)06:17
DocScrutinizerit's never been the 'making' that's the problem. Always the 'marketing' though06:17
wpwraknaw, marketing must have been easy, with all the hype surrounding openmoko. that was really incredible. wish we had half that for qi-hw.06:18
DocScrutinizerqi-hw is missing the intriguing topic of "smartphone"06:19
wpwrakoh, today it wouldn't get so much interest either06:19
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe qi is ahead of time, next buzzword been "tablet"06:19
wpwrakyeah. let's make nanonote and milkymist the next big thing after the tablet06:20
DocScrutinizerwearables - if I may dare a prophecy06:21
wpwrakthat may not be a bad guess. we're certainly heading this way.06:21
DocScrutinizerqi should be at the exactly right location for this enterprise. Isn't all western clothing manufactured in far east? (yeah, or Bangladesh)06:22
wpwrakwherever it is, the next qi-hw representative ain't far ;-)06:24
DocScrutinizerQi-HW, Berlin London, New York, Taipei, Bangalore06:24
wpwrakit gives me the chills though that i'd be the closest representative for antarctica. well, until rafa comes back06:25
wpwrakbarcelona, colombia, ...06:25
DocScrutinizerseems even 'big players' only have EMEA, America, Asia06:26
wpwrakwe don't seem to have much coverage in africa and au/nz either, though06:27
DocScrutinizerno coverage in Ozz? how's that?06:28
DocScrutinizerquite unusual, I'm always amazed how many users are from there06:30
Action: DocScrutinizer curses missing regex grep on userlist of IRC client06:30
DocScrutinizero/ roh06:31
wpwrakdunno. just haven't noticed anyone from down under06:31
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: i think kyak is now the official IRC bot enhancer :)06:32
DocScrutinizeraah, you think like06:33
DocScrutinizerqi-bot: seen *au*06:33
wpwrakhas a nice ring to it, no ?06:34
DocScrutinizerhihi cttv tests RL-twitter, with megaphone down in the streets. Strange, it doesn't work06:35
wpwrakanyway, time for me to crash for a bit. had a busy day.06:35
DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   06:35
DocScrutinizer(I'd love to design a few wearables together with qi-hw :-D )06:36
DocScrutinizermeh, qi-bot is quite uncommunicative06:49
LunaVorax_minierp ?07:54
DocScrutinizerkyak: nice :-D08:34
DocScrutinizerkyak: the plan however was to find australian users in this chan. Seems it's not exactly simple to establish that using the !seen *xy* cmd08:36
DocScrutinizerkyak: of course I tried "help" (plus a few others) in a /query qi-bot, which resulted in [2011-03-27 08:46:16] <DocScrutinizer> meh, qi-bot is quite uncommunicative08:41
DocScrutinizer[So 27. März 2011] |[08:45:15] <DocScrutinizer>| help08:42
DocScrutinizer[So 27. März 2011] |[08:45:22] <DocScrutinizer>| ?08:42
DocScrutinizer[2011-03-27 10:33:53] <qi-bot> ... All commands can sent to me in pm without "!" prefix.--08:42
DocScrutinizerI.E. this isn't exactly true, 'help' doesn't work this way08:43
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer:  (wearables) Yes!, also very in line with Arduino next move :), David Cuartielles one of his founders, has also near to publish a book about it :) , so some atmegas arround jacket and trousers and a brain/hmi based on qi-hw is not really a bat a idea at all08:45
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: :-D08:50
DocScrutinizerI'm more interested in the 'embeeded' (enweaved) things though, not the hmi/mmi08:53
DocScrutinizerideally there's no such thing like a dedicated device for mmi. Just a 'service terminal' you hook up at home, to configure things08:54
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: and why not configure it directly on the ankward of you foreaarm with a wearable screen that make you able to do so on the go , and with an 6lowpan that make you able to even configure it with your desktop computer without need to plug anything? :)09:06
tuxbrainor even better a cute light glasses to view and reserve the forearm for control/typing :)09:08
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: yeah, of course.09:16
DocScrutinizerreminds me to file a few patents for my special glasses09:17
DocScrutinizerdamn, that's where hw-development starts to get annoyingly expensive and unfeasible for a mere mortal09:19
DocScrutinizerspecial build of LCDs etc09:19
DocScrutinizerpossibly even non-standard LC itself (not that you'd be able to get such thing like "standard" LC in small quantities)09:21
DocScrutinizernot to mention the glass electrodes coated with transparent conductive material09:22
DocScrutinizerspacers, whatnot09:23
kyakDocScrutinizer: --^ :)09:24
Action: DocScrutinizer scribbles on a virtual postit note "install eggdrop" and sticks that note to some part of his neocortex09:27
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: please translate all above tech mambo jambo to an aprox amount.09:47
tuxbrainand if you have a abstract of that idea please let me take an eye.09:48
DocScrutinizerthe simple bottom line: you actually can not build your own LCD09:49
DocScrutinizer(as you'd need e.g. for a shutter glasses' glasses, or would you like to use goggles with two pcs 2.4" LCDs as glasses?)09:51
tuxbrainDoc I'm a little bit lose on the vocabulary shutter? googgles? any let me search to see what you mean09:53
tuxbrainok shutter understood wide range of geekosity vs stilish form this http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/350983940/3D_Shutter_Glasses_3D_Active_Glasses.jpg to this http://zapp5.staticworld.net/howto/graphics/211361-panasonis-shutter-glasses_180.jpg10:02
tuxbraingooggles : mmm maybe something more integrate that this but with same spirit whould be no so bad idea http://f00.inventorspot.com/images/smartgogglesJSH_228x342.jpg10:05
DocScrutinizeryeah, and the point is you can't built the needed shutter LCDs yourself. I'd have some rather smart (IMHO) ideas regarding combining shutter function, HMD (actual content mirrored in to the glasses via micro projector), and some ultra-geeky sunglasses function like selective dimming.10:05
DocScrutinizer~dict goggles10:06
DocScrutinizeroops, no ibot here10:06
DocScrutinizer!dict goggles10:06
DocScrutinizerthought as much10:06
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: yeah, the last one is what my idea is based on10:07
DocScrutinizere.g. camera can detect direction of sun and selectively dim out that area in the goggle's shutter glasses10:08
DocScrutinizeryou can have true alpha channel in content mirrored into your view10:09
DocScrutinizerget the picture?10:10
tuxbrainI agree to , we can found a way that it can be addapted to existent glasses too? maybe without some ot the fancy fucntions like auto dark glass, just show me info device?10:10
tuxbrainI have found the page of the guy of the googles :) http://www.isi.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~nakayama/index_en.htm10:47
tuxbrainI'm thinking to aks him if there is more techinical information about the hardware he uses, DocScrutinizer you think it worth the meaning?10:48
DocScrutinizerI'm *very* interested in HMDs10:52
DocScrutinizerand shutter goggles, and related topics10:52
DocScrutinizerwow, that's incredible: http://www.isi.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~nakayama/annotation_en.htm10:56
tuxbrainthe last one, scotland that is awesome (of course if is a scottish landscape :P)11:11
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: http://www.inition.co.uk/inition/pdf/EG-7b.pdf11:47
DocScrutinizerhard to find good links, even harder to find vivid sites actually selling11:47
DocScrutinizer>>wearable computing: Wearable computing hopes to shatter this myth of how a computer should be used. A person's computer should be worn, much as eyeglasses or clothing are worn, and interact with the user based on the context of the situation. With heads-up displays, unobtrusive input devices, personal wireless local area networks, and a host of other context sensing and communication tools, the wearable computer can act as an11:56
DocScrutinizerintelligent assistant, whether it be through a Remembrance Agent, augmented reality, or intellectual collectives. (from the MIT Wearable Computing WWW page)<<  hardly anything to add - from http://www.hitl.washington.edu/scivw/visual-faq.html11:56
GNUtoo|bug20does the arduino lilipad count in wearable computing?11:58
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.vrealities.com/addvisor150.html not quite stylish, but meh. It's for the operation principles, for stylish see prev link12:06
DocScrutinizer(the inition glasses)12:09
tuxbrainGNUtoo|bug20: lilipad I think yes it is :)12:38
GNUtoo|bug20bt kbd issues12:42
rejonnice post by xiangfu: http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=87513:18
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: http://www.cs.vassar.edu/people/priestdo/wearables/top#linux_on_the_sony_vgn-ux280p13:22
tuxbrainWhat is the amount to create a free production Microoptical EG7 device?!!!13:28
rejontuxbrain ha13:28
kristianpaulhmm, i need more data but i think i got the peak for two PRN codes..13:36
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: you need the display, the optics, the case. The rest is pfff13:43
kristianpaulhmm, i need to fix the offset frequency for my particular clock.. so i need will need automate this calibrationa at some point..13:44
kristianpaulHow do usually is measured a clock  freq error?..13:45
Action: kristianpaul looks at wpwrak 13:46
kristianpaulI can put the scope there and see what freq i get, but dunno if this is the best procedure13:46
kristianpaulhi DocScrutinizer :-)13:46
Action: kristianpaul gets an update almanac13:51
DocScrutinizerhi kristianpaul13:57
DocScrutinizersee man hwclock and man /etc/adjtime13:57
DocScrutinizeryou can't check clock freq base with a scope13:58
kristianpaulwhat device i need?13:59
DocScrutinizerthe clock itself and a reference :-D13:59
DocScrutinizerthe way hwclock is doing that is the most accurate way to determine the actual exact freq of the clock osc14:00
DocScrutinizerexcept if you're talking about sth like 20% off14:01
DocScrutinizerwhich I guess is impossible you'll ever run into such a problem14:01
kristianpaulthe clock i need measure is a TCXO for a gps L1 rf front end14:02
DocScrutinizeruhh, no idea14:02
DocScrutinizeruse a counter, connect it and probe for one hour14:02
kristianpaulbut according to the datasheet this is +- 1.5ppm14:02
DocScrutinizer*exactly* one hour. Then device the counts / 360014:03
DocScrutinizeras making sure the *exactly* one hour prerequisite might get tricky, you may want to probe for exactly 1 day, maybe 1 week ;-D14:05
DocScrutinizerso an inaccuracy of 0.5s for the probing timespan has less impact14:05
steve|mdoesn't the TCXO of GPS-receivers automatically calibrate to the GPS clock, like GSM phones do as well?14:06
steve|msome frequency counters have a GPS receiver as clock reference14:06
DocScrutinizeryeah, afaik it's supposed to do14:06
kristianpaulsteve|m: yes, mine said +- 1.5ppm, but for the *front-end*, the receiver, well thats my job ;)14:07
steve|mwhat's the frequency of the tcxo you're talking about? it's something odd, right?14:08
kristianpaul16.384 Mhz14:10
steve|mhm, too bad.. I used a phone and osmocom-bb to calibrate my Racal GSM Test Set, by 'stealing' the clock of a commercial cell14:11
steve|mhad both clocks on my scope, triggered on one, and calibrated it until the second waveform wasn't moving anymore ;)14:12
DocScrutinizersteve|m: cool14:13
steve|mdo commercial gps receivers have the same frontend clock you could tap?14:15
kristianpauli have one with sirf chip i dunno14:17
DocScrutinizersteve|m: even easier would've been to use one for X and the other for Y14:17
DocScrutinizerthen calibrate to get a lissajous that doesn't move14:17
steve|mwell, it kept moving a bit back and forth, was quite funny..14:18
steve|meverytime when the AFC-DAC was updated14:18
DocScrutinizertuxbrain: http://www.vrealities.com/vrprost.html 10.500.- hehe14:33
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (lissajous) nice ! finally a good use for xy mode :)14:38
wpwrakkristianpaul: if you can just count cycles, you can synchronize with ntp. ntp has very little drift but there's a possibly large random-ish offset when you take the sample. a few ppm for a measurement period of ~1h should be feasible, though.14:40
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: yeah, but still you need a reference that's not too far off from what you try to calibrate14:40
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: only if you're in a hurry :)14:41
DocScrutinizere.g. here in EU we got dcf77 which is a 77.5(?)kHz RF frequency and time normal14:41
wpwrakyeah, dcf77 is nice14:41
DocScrutinizeryou can't get useful lissajous with that, for e.g 16Mhz14:41
wpwrakah, sure. i wasn't talking about lissajous. i was thinking of counting cycles over one ntp hour, then see how many you got, and tune accordingly. repeat until you either have it right or until you declare defeat in before overwhelming temperature drift :)14:42
rmI wish nanonote would have built-in wifi :/14:46
wpwrakwpan ! wpan ! wpan ! :)14:52
Action: DocScrutinizer gigs thru his boxes in attic to find the WPAN AP14:54
steve|mwho said jehova? ;)14:54
kristianpaulrm, wpwrak already develop an copyleft alternative to clasic wifi (wpan)14:55
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: you have to look in those labeled "future"14:56
DocScrutinizerwhat's the name of those pills?14:56
rmor bluetooth (but bluetooth is ewwww)14:59
rmand also highly proprietary, no14:59
rmpoint is, if it had wireless communication out of the box, it'd be an order of magnitude more attractive/useful15:00
DocScrutinizerthat's the point15:00
rmI am watching videos at https://www.tuxbrain.net/shop/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=99&osCsid=mira7ic2cjqc8v117lpl5sqme715:01
rm(i am not a nanowar fan, just some I found)15:01
kristianpaulalso highly proprietary as wifi, same our lemote have ;)15:01
Action: DocScrutinizer suggests a few "embedded USB bays" for future devices of qi-hw15:01
rmkristianpaul, afaik bluetooth requires licensing fee per device sold15:01
rmdoes wifi?15:01
rmI always thought that's why most cheap wireless mice/keyboards use their own thing instead of bluetooth15:02
kristianpauli dunno, ask to the wifi chip manufacturer15:02
kristianpaulbu i guess it need at least to pay for the MAC addressing same as Ethernet15:03
wpwrakkristianpaul: the MAC is cheap. and you need it for almost anything15:03
wpwrakkristianpaul: well, you actually don't get a MAC but an OUI. then you manage your own MAC address space under that OUI15:04
wpwrakkristianpaul: plus, they money has already been spent: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/IEEE_OUI_assignments15:05
kristianpaulbtw this coming wpan linux support hopefully will allo to hookup a wpan to my linksys router isnt? same as with the RFM12B module15:09
steve|mwpwrak: heh, it's already in the wireshark OUI-database as well :)15:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: does your linksys have usb host ?15:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: or at least spi / gpios for bit-banging ?15:12
kristianpauli WILL *not* use USB :-D15:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: yes spi :-)15:12
wpwrakwho "*not*" usb ?15:12
kristianpaulI consider un necesary15:13
kristianpaulfor the troughput you may get15:13
wpwrak(spi) then you'll be able to hack an atben to do your bidding :) well, you'll also need a few more gpios for control signals. reset (semi-optional), standby (optional), interrupt15:14
wpwrakthe advantage of usb would be that you could just plug in an atusb :)15:14
kristianpaulthast true15:14
wpwrak(and increase tuxbrain sales in the process :)15:15
kristianpauloh sure :-)15:15
rmwhat games would you suggest15:21
rmto try on "simple" devices like nanonote (and for me right now on yeeloong)15:21
kristianpauljlime muffinman ships nice games15:25
kristianpaulthere is also a #jlime channel in wich you can get better recomendations about games ;-)15:35
kristianpauldingux also use same Xbusrt SoC as nanonote and is a game console oriented device15:35
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://home.earthlink.net/~cwkelley/OSGPS_chapter_3.pdf (check page 11, nice graph about that old signmag discussion)15:38
tuxbrainDocScrutinizer: wow that was very very pricy!, I'm afraid the how much the beautiful Microoptical EG7 can cost15:48
tuxbrainwpwrak: atusb on wifi AP, yummi yummi15:49
tuxbrainwpwrak kristianpaul, that means instant inet access on NN :)15:49
DocScrutinizerat those hefty price tags I actually start to rethink my position about "you can't build your own LCD"15:49
DocScrutinizerhell, for 10k$ I can get one handmade to my specs15:50
DocScrutinizerI guess selling two of those per week actually is a working business model15:51
DocScrutinizeralso I'd like to investigate about usability of DLPs for this purpose15:53
kristianpaultuxbrain: exactly :-)15:53
wpwrakkristianpaul: nice description ! too bad it gets a little sketchy right after page 1116:09
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: this should fill in the gap :-) http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html18:03
kristianpaulDocScrutinizer: great link!18:05
kristianpauloh, nice graphs http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html18:06
kristianpaulergg http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/halfcorr.gif18:06
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gif/signals.gif  http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html18:13
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/clkcor.html :-D18:15
DocScrutinizerI should recommend this one http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps.html rather than the *_f.html framed one18:15
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: one question is a bit more basic: what do the Q/I components really signify ?19:28
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: it's more clear in the FFT. but in the time domain, what does the imaginary part really mean ?19:28
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: where?19:34
DocScrutinizerusually iirc the I component is the 90° shifted part so basically the phase19:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (where) for example in the chip kristianpaul uses. there, he gets Q and I19:36
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: and i have the same in the USRP. so i'm kinda curious what this really means, too :)19:37
DocScrutinizersorry, I can't follow. is that a signal, or what?19:38
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (phase) yes, i understand that for the frequency domain. but what does it mean in the time domain ? how does even the concept of a phase enter in individual samples ?19:38
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: my DSP book explains the complex time domain also more or less in terms of the frequency domain, so this doesn't really help19:39
DocScrutinizersorry, I never seen any I and/or Q on e.g. an AD converter19:42
kristianpaulI/Q is part of a downconvertion19:42
DocScrutinizerso I can't comment on whatever you're asking me19:42
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/480519:43
kristianpaulbut i'm not sure of this at all19:48
kristianpaulADC gives two bit sign/mag data20:45
kristianpaulDowncoveter / Serializer  provides I/Q20:46
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