#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2011-03-13

tuxbrain_awaykristianpaul: well not really :)00:00
Jay7wpwrak: NN 'StarWars' mod :)00:00
tuxbrain_awayn8 guys :)00:00
wpwraktuxbrain_away: can you reveal the type of 3d printer ? makerbot-ish ? or more like the 10k+ USD desktop thingies ?00:00
kristianpaulreprap-ish..00:01
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, that's a better word00:01
kristianpaullike the one from bits from bytes?00:01
Jay7btw, what is relation between reprap and markerbot?00:02
Jay7(if any)00:02
kristianpauldunno..00:02
kristianpaulwell once i time same electronics,but that changed00:03
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: kristianpaul , when time come information will be revealed, but it will not be a 10k+ for sure :)00:03
wpwrakhopefully cheaper yet better then :)00:05
kristianpaulcheap, i hope too00:05
kristianpaulalso wich can mills pcb as wpwrak do00:05
kristianpauland do smt later? ;-)00:05
Jay7hehe.. soldering machine :)00:06
kristianpaulha, you should see the ones just for reflow00:06
wpwrak< USD 100, prints all kinds of materials including plastics and metals, with color, can print over any cavities, resolution 10 um or better, blindingly fast, very compact, maximum workpiece size something like 50x50x30 cm, yeah, that would be about the specs :)00:06
kristianpaulfrom what dream that came?00:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: (smt) hey, just extrude 20 nm structures :)00:07
wpwraktuxbrain_away: i wonder if you could get them interested in making a ben case, as a proof of concept project00:08
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: mmm interesting , I will propose :)00:10
kristianpauland they will kill you00:10
kristianpaulat leasy you have a good proposal for support material  :-)00:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: if they still do it afterwards, it will be a fine sacrifice :)00:10
kristianpaulanyway..00:10
kristianpaulkeep us posted00:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: the absence of suitable case-making experience is still a big obstacles on the path to a potential ya00:11
tuxbrain_awaywhy? I'm a lovely guy with shreck's cat on boots eyes00:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: and i think it would be best to develop and test these skills with a known device, namely the ben00:12
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: the files you have will be suitable to do so?00:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: That case you be made, by some one with cad skills, and please  parametric ones too00:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: a case for the ben boards yes, a similar design for current one, not a cheap copy00:13
wpwraktuxbrain_away: for making a case ? no, not really. you need to make a proper design first. but you can use them a inputs, to speed up the process00:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: (parametic) oh, totally. anything else would feel prehistoric00:14
kristianpaulwpwrak: you already scaned all boards isnt?00:15
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: ok I will aks them , they are not good at electronics (they had asked me for help so judge your self :P) but seem quite pro on mechanical desing let's see I have a meeting with them next week,00:15
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: ()mechanical desing) show then the ben boards, please !!00:16
wpwrakkristianpaul: no, i still need to make a few more scans. i had suspended them because i needed the mill for other stuff, and if i can't dedicate to scanning for at least a week at a time, it doesn't make much sense to even try00:16
kristianpaulwe need a case with no screws easy to put.. can be ugly at first and shaped later00:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah, slow scan is pain..00:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: and now i also have the problem that the pc with the scanning software (proprietary junk running on windows in a virtualbox) died, so i need to rebuild that setup, too00:17
kristianpaulhmm..00:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: (tried wine, but no luck)00:17
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (ME skills) that's exactly what's missing on our end :)00:17
tuxbrain_awaykristianpaul: I dont understand you about the case can you elaborate?00:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: (no scews) oh, i would use screws. they're much easier to handle than making snap-in parts00:18
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: we have two boards, main one and lcm for ben nanonote00:18
kristianpaulwpwrak:(screws) i gues should be betters ways.. i hope00:19
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: lets imagine no case00:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: with snap-on, you also get material dependencies, dynamic behaviour, aging, and so on. that's a lot harder00:19
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: so this guys as are related with mechanical part, sureally arelady have some know how about a case design based on the boards00:20
wpwrakkristianpaul: (snap) and of course, you also get undercuts. just a big mess. no, i love my screws :)00:20
tuxbrain_awaykristianpaul: (no case) ok that's easy , imaginated00:20
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: no matter if what they try is ugly or teo speare parts, but make boads fit is hard part00:20
kristianpaulwpwrak: ok, screws :-)00:20
Jay7just print case around board! :)00:21
Action: wpwrak takes out the silicone "gun"00:21
kristianpaulnoo00:21
Action: tuxbrain_away can also make a blob of hot glue too :P00:21
kristianpaulnooo00:22
wpwrakkristianpaul: i wouldn't even worry about longevity. make the case cheap to build, then you can just throw it away when the threads of the holes you screw into fail00:22
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: go and finish your printer :-)00:22
tuxbrain_awayok ok now yes good n8 guys00:23
kristianpauln800:23
wpwraknow, lemme try to figure out the logic of wolfgang's kicad patch. then i can add the exclude-pcb-edge option, and finally make the pcb fab files with a script00:24
wolfsprauloops00:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: almost done :)00:48
wolfsprauleh :-) I just started, quite embarassing.00:49
wolfspraulI look into the color thing too then.00:49
wolfspraulif ( parser.Found( wxT("exclude-pcb-edge") ) ) frame->Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true;00:50
wolfspraulsomething like this should do it, testing...00:50
wpwrakah, maybe you'll still beat me to it :)00:51
wpwraki tried the global setting. but that didn't work. thinking of it, i set it to "false" ...00:51
wolfspraulsorry g_pcb_plot_options.00:51
wolfsprauloh that didn't work?00:52
wolfspraullet me do this now, no worries00:52
wolfspraulgive me 1h, then you can complain again :-) (sorry I have been so slow on this)00:52
wolfsprauldid you try to set g_pcb_plot_options.Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true; ?00:53
wpwrakthat's what i'm trying now00:53
wolfspraulwithout even reading the implementation, I would hope that's the right variable00:53
wolfspraulI'll fix the eeschema color problem too00:54
wpwrakyeha, that worked00:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: kicad-patches/exclude-pcb-edge.patch:: added option -e / --exclude-pcb-edge http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/46dbda600:56
wpwrakhere it is00:56
wpwrakthat was actually easier than i thought. your approach of handling these things is nicely extensible00:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile: generate proper Gerbers (without edge) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e0d827101:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/README-PCB: mention that the back solder mask is empty http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/20717b201:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: do we have the file package adam sent for smt'ing the jtag board somewhere ?01:01
wolfspraulyou mean the last jtag-serial run?01:06
wolfspraulok, I will rebase on your -e patch, and fix the eeschema color problem now01:06
wpwrakor just merge my patch. it's simple enough01:07
wpwrak(eeschema color) great ! that one's a fly in the ointment :)01:07
wpwrakkristianpaul, tuxbrain_away: for review: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atben-110219.tar.gz http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atben-110219.zip01:20
Action: kristianpaul think twice in seding like gz..01:22
kristianpaulthansk wpwrak !01:22
wolfspraulwpwrak: are you still looking for some file from Adam? which one? jtag-serial run?01:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes, for SMT. i don't know what exactly the fabs need for that01:24
wpwrakwhat i generated now are just the files for making PCBs01:24
wolfspraulmost important is the AI file I think, automatic insertion01:28
wolfspraulwait I think there is a wiki page somewhere01:28
wolfsprauljust a fragment http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/KiCad_Automatic_Insertion_File01:29
wolfspraulhere's some more good info http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/JTAG_Serial_Cable_run_1_for_Milkymist_One01:30
wolfspraulEngineering files to SMT manufacturer01:31
wolfspraulBoM/AI/panel gerber/placement top/placement bottom/parts polarity top/released parts' qty information/page 58 of Soldering reflow profile in FT2232HQ01:31
wolfspraulthat second wiki page is good, it should have the information you are looking for01:32
kristianpaulwpwrak: done, sent info for quoute01:32
kristianpaul160usd for 10PCB still expensive i think01:32
kristianpaulwell they tought the pcb was squared..01:32
wpwrak(kicad ai) ah, nice, thanks. that's already one item i didn't know.01:32
kristianpaullet see how they react witht L like explanation about the pcb01:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: (10 pcb) you may want to ask for larger quantities as well. very often, 100 is basically the same price as 10.01:33
kristianpauli dont money for 10001:33
kristianpaul10 is on my limit..01:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: in the case of UBB, even 100 would have been a bad choice. 500 was only something like 10% more expensive01:33
kristianpaulhmm01:34
wpwrakkristianpaul: money for 100 may be only very very little more than money for 10 :)01:34
kristianpaulhmm, i dont think so..01:35
wpwrakkristianpaul: the ubb cost structure for 100 or 500 units was something like EUR 405 + units * EUR 0.17, if i remember this correctly01:35
kristianpaulnot here but i can try01:35
kristianpaulask dont hurt01:35
wpwrakkristianpaul: it depends on the fab. some have almost linear prices, others have a big setup fee and then a low per unit price01:35
wolfspraulit's a pure factor of labor cost01:36
wolfspraulone-time fees in the US are a few times higher than one-time fees in Taiwan, where they are still about double the one-time fees in China01:36
wpwrakkristianpaul: e.g., the quite ron got was from a place with a lower fixed cost but high per unit price. that's why the 500 unit cost would have been insane01:36
wpwraks/quite/quote/01:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: some places also bundle (small) orders, so they can spread out the setup cost01:37
wolfspraulactually if a place like Colombia would get their act together, they could beat China01:37
wolfspraulbut that's more of a social problem than a technical one01:37
kristianpaulyeah..01:37
wolfspraulin China people who earn 5 USD per day come to work nicely every day, don't steal, are not drunk or violent, etc.01:38
wolfspraulof course the Chinese society holds draconian measures in place for those that think they have something to complain about a 5 usd / day lifestyle01:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: (2nd link) oh, great. exactly what i was looking for. thanks !01:38
wolfspraulwhile in Colombia, even though many people survive on 2-3 USD / day, well, the truth is they are violent, steal a lot, etc. no fun running a factory with them.01:39
wolfspraulso it's still back to China, I guess...01:39
kristianpaul:-)01:39
kristianpaulchina will build a small town at the north of the cuntry, thats tne romuor.. oh well01:40
wolfsprauldefinitely imaginable01:40
wolfspraulthey are doing this in a lot of countries01:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: regarding smt, if you want to make a small number if atben, then you may want to consider manual soldering01:40
wolfspraulbut watch out, it will be CHinese culture there01:41
wolfspraulthere will be gates, with Chinese guards asking for ID, etc. Colombian police will not go in.01:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: atben isn't too hard to solder, both from the component count and the general difficulty01:41
kristianpaulwpwrak: i'lldo manual, soldering01:41
kristianpaulsmt will blowout my pocket..01:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: good, then you're on the right track already :)01:42
wolfspraulit's already happening massively in south-east asia (say cambodia), where Chinese companies buy huge areas of land, invest billions of USD, and create something like a 'colony'01:42
wpwrakatusb is harder. about twice the number of components, and larger ground areas, so heat loss becomes more of a problem. it's still doable, though.01:42
wolfspraulairport, beach resort, vacation homes, etc.01:42
wolfspraulCambodian police will not go into those areas.01:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: so what do they look for there ? just nice beaches ?01:43
wolfspraulthere are many projects, I guess it differs01:43
wolfspraulsometimes precious resources, sometimes vacation investments, etc.01:43
wolfspraulbut the size is so big, it looks like they buy a chunk of that country, of course01:43
wolfspraulwhat can a country like Cambodia say or do about it?01:44
wolfspraulthey will just be sidelined01:44
wolfspraulthe Chinese are coming with billions of USD, high-tech, thousands of workers, etc. etc.01:44
wolfsprauland with a huge industrial hinterland (China), that can supply anything they need01:44
wpwrakinteresting approach to colonialization01:45
wolfspraulfirst time I hear from kristianpaul that this is also planned in Colombia, but I'm not surprised01:45
wolfspraulit's just a little further away :-)01:45
wolfspraulthey don't see it like that. just an investment.01:45
wolfspraulof course they think the locals are poor and lazy.01:45
wolfspraulwork only 5 days a week, etc.01:45
wpwrak;-))01:45
wolfspraulso China brings civilization01:45
Action: kristianpaul work 4 days a week01:45
kristianpaulbtw01:45
wolfspraulwell, exactly. :-)01:46
wpwrakkristianpaul is being civilized by a project from china-based sharism, so that he can work the remaining days of the week, too ;-)01:46
kristianpaul:-)01:46
wolfspraulin Cambodia they are doing 99 year leases01:47
wolfsprauljust like Hong Kong, so funny01:47
wolfspraulwhere the China propaganda machine cannot stop complaining about that01:47
wolfspraulthey do exactly the same01:47
wolfspraullet's see whether they return properly in 99 years, as the British did01:47
wolfspraulwell, we won't see, I guess.01:47
wolfspraulI would have big doubts though.01:48
wpwrakby then, they'll have assimilated the rest of the country anyway ;-)01:49
wolfspraulthe last chunk they cut out of Cambodia was about 1/3rd the size of Hong Kong, several times the size of Macau.01:50
wolfspraulkristianpaul: let's build copyleft hardware in the non-China part of Colombia, eh? we don't need to go to that new city :-)01:50
kristianpaulactually i hope all still as rumour01:51
kristianpauland i live in the south01:51
wolfspraulnah, makes perfect sense.01:51
wolfspraulthis is happening everywhere, Chinese companies are looking for investments everywhere01:51
kristianpaulaway from such us dangers ;-)01:51
wolfsprauland they will protect their investments01:51
wpwraki wonder if the "buy chunks of a country" approach is better or worse than the "just buy the politicans" approach of the west01:51
wpwrakin the end, it may all end up in the same pockets, of course01:52
kristianpaulwolfspraul: I'm hapy in where i live, so no need to move, well just for working to the capital, but thats 4 days no more01:55
wolfspraulwe're just kidding, no worries.01:55
kristianpaulsure01:55
wolfspraulChinese culture is horribly unattractive to anyone who has seen life outside.01:55
wolfspraulso that whole process will come to a halt because the Chinese themselves will realize life is about more than piling up money.01:55
wpwrakbtw, there's one footprint in atben/atusb i'm not so sure about yet. that's the balun. i used the recommended land pattern, but it barely reaches the bottom of the contacts. you have plenty of room on the side, though.01:56
wolfspraulwith 'Chinese culture' I mean the special characteristics as implemented by the so called communists right now. That nonsense will stop sooner or later :-)01:56
wpwrakso this may not be very smt-friendly. for manual soldering, you don't have much of a problem, though01:56
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what are you trying to manufacture?01:57
wolfspraulmore ubbs?01:57
kristianpaulnooo01:57
kristianpaul:-)01:57
kristianpaulatben01:57
wolfsprauloh01:57
wpwraki like what's happening - when wolfgang doesn't move quickly enough, others do ;-)01:57
kristianpaulfirst PCB if all went okay, order from digikey01:58
kristianpauland DIY SMT01:58
wpwrakwhich is of course precisely what open design hw should enable to happen01:58
wpwrakso the plan works :)01:58
kristianpaulHe the plan include sell some board to university01:59
wolfspraulawesome!01:59
kristianpaullocal university**01:59
kristianpaulbut let see01:59
kristianpauli go slow, as money allow :-)02:00
wpwrakkristianpaul: even better if it actually generates revenue :)02:00
kristianpaul;-)02:01
kristianpaulwolfspraul: there are bens sold to ecuador or venezuela?02:03
kristianpauli dont found in wiki, but asking just in case02:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: in eeschema_scripted.cpp, there is a line g_DrawBgColor = BLACK; Can you try commenting that out?02:04
wolfspraulI did and it seems the .ps output is still good.02:04
wolfspraulremoving that line should keep the background color untouched (I guess the variable is persisted some time during app exit)02:05
wolfspraulkristianpaul: there only were 1 or 2 fraudulent orders from those countries :-)02:05
wolfspraul(no deliveries)02:05
wolfspraullike I said, the Chinese will come and bring some civilization. You just wait :-)02:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: (black) let's see ...02:09
kristianpaulah, shame02:09
wolfspraulfrom the little I learnt when I was there, I'd say Colombia is by far the one with the most potential, and most fertile breeding ground.02:12
wolfspraulif it doesn't work in Colombia, for sure it won't work in Venezuela or Ecuador.02:12
wolfspraulof course there can be pioneers everywhere...02:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: (pcbnew and black) looks good02:14
wolfsprauleeschema02:14
wpwrakoh ;-)02:14
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you can try contacting Carlos, why not? :-)02:14
wpwraki was wondering why pcbnew :)02:14
kristianpaulwolfspraul: Carlos? what for?ah, you mean atben? sure i will02:15
wolfspraulwait - it fixed your problem or not?02:15
wolfspraulI saw the color issue in eeschema. is there another one in pcbnew?02:15
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes, for atben.02:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: pcbnew already defaults to black. not sure if there would be one if you changed that02:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: eeschema looks good. the color bug is gone02:16
wolfspraulok great. I really apologize that I was so crazy slow on this.02:17
wolfspraul5 lines for exclude-edges, 1 line for eeschema color.02:17
wolfspraulthat should have been done in an hour weeks ago, oh well..02:17
wpwrakyeah, it was a little odd ;)02:17
wpwraki don't even see a way to change the bg color in pcbnew. so the setting to black is probably harmless. (doesn't seem to accomplish anything either, though)02:19
wolfspraulthe worst is that I got really good feedback on the kicad list but haven't done anything since02:20
wolfspraulneed to speedup...02:20
kristianpaulwpwrak: is drc also avaliable by command line btw?02:21
wolfspraulyes02:21
kristianpaulfood :-)02:21
kristianpaulgood**02:21
wolfsprauland the plan was to automate that on the server too, another nice todo item.02:21
wolfspraulin fact the jtag-serial high-speed bug showed that that is a good idea :-)02:22
wpwrakauto-drc may benefit from a filtering mechanism, too. e.g., atben/atusb don't pass DRC, because of the antenna02:23
wpwrakand ERC has even more false positives02:23
kristianpaulokay, but you can override the atena warnings, isnt?02:24
kristianpaulantenna**02:24
wpwraki can just ignore them :-)02:24
kristianpaulok02:25
wpwrakfor review (pcb fab files): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusb-110214.tar.gz http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusb-110214.zip02:37
Action: kristianpaul dont want to mess with usb for now02:38
wpwrakkristianpaul: it's kinda useful to be able to talk to your pc :)02:40
kristianpauli know...02:42
kristianpaulbut i'll ignore that for now02:42
wpwrak;-)02:43
wpwrakah, and i need some hack to put the version number on copper and silk screen02:47
Action: wpwrak wonders if more recent versions of kicad don't have such a thing already. seems rather useful02:48
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile: cleanup and a small bug fix http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6bbe3bf02:52
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: added fab file generation, like in atben http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cdf382502:52
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: mupdf compile fine now. remove useless fonts and cmaps, not test yet http://qi-hw.com/p/UNNAMED PROJECT/acd102303:55
xiangfuwhy my project is "UNNAMED PROJECT" ?03:57
wolfspraulxiangfu: there's a 'description' file, wait I update it...04:37
wolfspraulxiangfu: I updated it, in /home/git/repositories/m1s.git/description04:40
wolfspraulIndefero should do it automatically, but it doesn't...04:40
xiangfuwolfspraul: thanks04:41
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: a simple work version http://qi-hw.com/p/m1s/239193d06:03
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: merged Werner's patch, fixed eeschema background color bug http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/a074fa107:29
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: are smt files already in the tar.gz/files you send?07:38
wpwraktuxbrain_away: no, not yet07:39
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak:  ok I will wait until you send this to me.07:39
wpwraktuxbrain_away: also note that the pcb files may still change a little. namely, with a size change of one footprint07:40
wpwraktuxbrain_away: will the place that did the pcbs also do the smt ?07:40
wolfspraulcurious about that one. I'd say it's very unlikely. for some reason pcb factories and smt factories always seem separate.07:41
wolfspraulunless you take the giants like foxconn, who have everything somewhere (still separate subsidiaries, of course)07:41
wolfspraulmaybe it's the skillset? maybe the lack of overlap in capital expenditure? don't know...07:42
wolfspraulsome pcb makers will offer you to take care of smt though, by involving a partner company07:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: new patch set works like a charm. thanks !07:43
wpwrak(different companies) maybe because there's very little overlap in the actual activities07:44
wpwrakalso, pcbs are easier to ship around than component stock.07:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile (gen): corrected use of --plot (for style - not really used) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7ef1c0907:47
wolfspraulyes, the shippability may also be a factor08:11
wolfspraulpcb is often remote, smt rarely/never08:12
wolfspraulbut let's see what tuxbrain says, I'm very curious about the answer.08:12
wpwrakdo many smt houses offer to buy/stock components for you ?08:12
wolfspraulalways like to understand what kind of services are clustered where and how, because we need to know the reasons in order to make best use of them08:13
wolfspraulonly very basic parts, like smd passive components08:13
wpwrakyeah. just "it's all easier in china" may not always be true08:13
wolfspraulanything unique/special to your product you need to hand in08:13
wolfsprauloh of course not. people who say 'it's all easier in china' just document how little they know about China.08:14
wpwrak;-)08:14
wpwrakbut it's sooo cheap :)08:14
wolfspraulyeah. especially if it's crap, or doesn't work.08:15
wolfspraulChinese themselves know very well, that's why the streets are full of (real) Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.08:15
wpwrak:-)08:15
wolfsprauland the occasional Ferrari and Lamborghini, I may add08:15
wpwraki think the realization that not all is gold in china also reached western firms by now, but it certainly took them long enough08:16
wpwrakand the less scrupulous merchants still make a good buck on defunct junk08:16
wolfspraulyes but I think many buyers get what they deserve.08:17
wolfspraulmy sympathy is with the Chinese there.08:17
wpwrakmine is also with the end customers, who don't even get a choice08:17
wolfspraulfair enough. in a perfect world nobody would touch knowingly broken/defective stuff.08:18
wpwrakbut yes, the chinese are doing everything right. the fools demand, they supply08:19
wolfspraulyes. isn't it amazing that some people want consumer electronics where the smt and pcb fabrication is staffed by totally clueless 17 year old kids, who have fun playing with the many buttons?08:21
wolfspraulat least the western consumers finance a big 'learning by doing' program that way08:21
wolfspraulI try to see the positive side. the kids are having fun, and underage is watched. so be it then...08:21
wolfspraulsome of them are really laughing at the defunct crap they are producing, there are a lot of funny youtube videos and blog posts along these lines.08:22
wolfspraulwhat can they do, eventually they will figure out how this all works, then they are ready for the next better company...08:22
wolfspraulone thing I find interesting. this china thing has made many western companies not know anymore what they are producing, even why I think.08:30
wpwrakwell, as long as they're having fun :)08:31
wpwrakand most customers probably don't understand just how things could go wrong anyway. they just see things that inexplicably fail.08:32
wolfspraulwell but the drive towards cheap means they are changing things faster than the software side, even marketing side, can catch up to08:32
wolfspraulso it all becomes a very automated industry. good thing we have apple, who act like a global loudspeaker.08:32
wolfspraulso when apple comes out with something new, everybody else of the brain-disconnected companies suddenly knows what the next big thing is they are supposed to do.08:33
wpwrakapple is still a very high-margin company. quite different from the bottom feeders that flood the market with junk08:33
wolfsprauleven though by themselves, they have no communication channels anymore to get any complex thought communicated08:33
wpwrakoh, yes. the herd effect is amazing08:33
wolfspraulyes but that's my point. there are no more communication channels :-)08:33
wpwrakwho needs cartels if you have steve jobs ? :)08:33
wolfspraulthe people that would understand have been cut (too expensive)08:33
wolfspraulso it's all in auto-pilot mode08:34
wolfspraulyou cannot communicate any complex new idea down the supply chain08:34
wolfspraulwhere 'complex' can be brutally simple actually, given where things stand nowadays08:34
wolfspraulso if you want to work with suppliers that have not cut such people, it's immediately more expensive (china or otherwise).08:35
wpwrakof course08:35
wpwrakso the question is how long the bottom feeders really can compete08:35
wolfspraula software engineer working for a foreign company in Shanghai will now make 2500 USD or more08:36
wpwrakboth in terms of demand (which may exist forever) but also in terms of denying their betters access to the market08:36
wolfspraulthat's his (more or less) net salary, so for the company it's at least 4000 USD08:36
wolfspraulthese are normal rates for (good) graduate students (say guys that can really do engineering)08:37
wpwrakdoesn't sound too bad08:37
wolfspraulyou just need to do a little math to understand that many low marging hardware suppliers have no room for such people08:37
wolfspraulno room = no money08:37
wolfspraulso how do they keep their factory running? :-)08:38
wolfspraulmagic?08:38
wolfspraulhe he08:38
wolfspraulI know how :-)08:38
wpwrakexcuses ? ;-)08:38
wolfspraulnah08:38
wolfspraulhire someone for 800 USD / month, or less08:38
wolfsprauland then close your eyes, and close them hard08:38
wpwrakexcuses :)08:39
wolfspraulwpwrak: with 'access to market' you mean access to China market?08:40
wolfspraulaccess to China market depends a lot on each industry, it's tightly regulated. for consumer electronics, there are no problems getting in, _IF_ you pay the high import taxes (and consequently the Chinese consumers are willing to pay them as well)08:41
wolfspraulyou know the whole business of the 'export zones', and how expensive it is to get a product from an export zone into China proper08:41
wolfspraulbut other than high taxes, the market (in consumer electronics) is very open and very competitive08:41
wolfspraulI recently bought a Samsung video projector, 'made in china'. The price at amazon.com would have been about 2800 RMB (4xx USD), I paid 4400 RMB in China (that was a good price after searching).08:42
wolfspraulthat's a 57% markup!08:43
wpwrak(market access) more the international market. china market is tricky08:43
wolfspraulbut foreign brands are still selling very well in China08:43
wolfspraulthe Chinese government is making the most of this product, for sure08:44
wpwrak(market access) e.g., better quality products being replaced by cheap ones, thus the more expensive but good companies dying08:44
wolfspraulnot sure where this is happening. if 'better quality' is actually meaningful, it won't be replaced.08:44
wpwrak(57% markup) in argentina, we get 100% or more for consumer electronics ...08:45
wolfspraulnot all 'better quality' is actually better though, and the Chinese are trying hard every day to find that additional little thing that you can leave out without hurting functionality.08:45
wolfspraulsometimes they go too far in that search, but luckily there are consumers ready to finance this activity :-)08:45
wolfspraulthat's how I see it. You cannot scale broken. definitely not.08:46
wolfspraulbroken is an anomaly, though if you can find consumers that help you mitigate the costs of broken, then why not...08:46
wpwrak(better quality) oh, when you can buy a screwdriver that will crack under high load or corrode quickly for price X or one that will last much longer for price 2 X, it may be difficult for the average customer to decide on buying the latter08:46
wpwrakthus the better company loses the non-expert customers08:47
wolfspraulmaybe many people buy screwdrivers they never use, or only once a year08:47
wolfspraulmy bottom line is: I don't think 'China' as a phenomenom is in any way a prerequisite for successful copyleft hardware.08:48
wolfspraulit's just a country, like many others08:48
wolfspraulit's not true that 'things' are cheaper in China08:48
wpwrakthat too. but of course, with the market getting flooded by the cheap ones, it also gets hard on the buyer side to get anything better08:48
wolfspraulonce we have stabilized our knowledge platform, we may even be able to be cheaper outside of China. the overhead in China is still bad, and not getting better.08:48
wpwrakthey probably are, where a lot of unskilled labour is enough08:48
wpwrakyup. we're far from unskilled labour08:49
wpwrakwhat we find boring, we automate :)08:49
panda|x201wolfspraul, ping :-)13:59
wolfspraulpanda|x201: yes, still here.14:02
kristianpaulwifispy dont look that bad at all16:28
kristianpaulthe price it is..16:29
rohwell.. its not a measuring tool. rather a 'estimation meter'16:34
kristianpaulyeah..16:36
rozzinAnyone interested hacking on a NanoNote music-player project?16:45
rozzinI think I just started an awesome one by accident, but I don't know how much time I'm going to be able to give it right now.16:54
kyakrozzin: there is "gmu" already, what could have been better? :)17:03
B_LizzardROCKBOX17:06
kristianpaul:D17:07
B_LizzardIt has ROCK in the name17:07
rozzinhttp://identi.ca/conversation/6602981217:07
B_LizzardThis got me all jazzed up17:07
wejpshould i rename Gmu into RockGmu? ;D17:08
kristianpaulbut MPD rely on networks17:08
kristianpaulwejp: could be :-)17:08
wejp:D17:08
B_Lizzardwejp name it rockrock17:08
wejplol17:08
B_Lizzard:)17:08
rozzinkristianpaul: MPD works perfectly find on a loopback socket.17:08
kristianpaulrozzin: yeah, i was thiking that too17:08
kristianpaulat least it could allow me to swich to other apps17:09
kristianpaulrozzin: at home is on a separate machine, but yeah loopback is valida17:09
rozzinkristianpaul: I's how I'm running it, right now.17:09
wejpyou can siwtch to other apps with gmu too17:09
wejpswitch17:10
kristianpaulwejp: oh, yeah??17:10
kristianpaulalt + ..17:10
wejpyes, just change the terminal17:10
kristianpaulha, i was afraid to try just to not lost the track of my song.. :-)17:10
kristianpaulgood to know17:10
wejpyeah, works nicely :)17:10
rozzinIt's a lot less work to hook GJay into MPD than into GMU.17:10
wejpwith the latest version of gmu it also does no longer turn off the screen when in gmu is running in the backround17:11
kristianpaulrozzin: you could ask to the list, music player alternatives are always wellcome i think17:11
rozzinMostly because I already did the GJay+MPD part. ;)17:11
kristianpaulshit17:11
kristianpauloops17:11
kristianpaulB_Lizzard: rockbox menu is written in wich language?17:12
rozzinThe work that remains is all getting GJay integrated into openwrt.17:12
B_LizzardI think most of Rockbox is either assembly or C17:12
kristianpaulrozzin: upstream yeap :-)17:12
B_LizzardUm, it's both assembly and C17:12
B_LizzardThat's what I meant17:12
B_LizzardI guess the menu is in C17:12
rozzinAnd possibly modularising-out all of the stuff that's not useful on the NanoNote.17:12
B_LizzardBut Rockbox ain't Linux17:12
B_LizzardIt's an OS in itself.17:13
kristianpaulah..17:13
kristianpaulwow17:13
kristianpaulnice :-)17:13
kristianpaulit will boot reallt fast on the nanonote i bet17:13
B_LizzardProbably yeah17:13
B_LizzardI say to hell with this Linux crap17:13
rozzinAnd maybe switching GJay's DB format from XML to sqlite or something, depending on how it ends up performing.17:13
B_LizzardUse plain text!17:14
kristianpaulyes please17:14
B_LizzardXML sucketh.17:14
B_LizzardMaybe we could port Emacs OS on the nanonote17:15
kristianpaulwhat?17:16
kristianpaulnoo ;-)17:16
rozzinB_Lizzard: having to spend 15 seconds loading 3 MB of `plain text' on every playlist-refresh doesn't sound all that much better than having to spend 30 seconds loading 4 MB of XML.17:16
B_LizzardUgh17:16
B_Lizzard3MB of plain text?17:16
B_LizzardThat's a big-ass playlist.17:17
B_Lizzard:)17:17
rozzinB_Lizzard: Though, if you're offering to help, I'll take you up on the offer regardless of what DB-format you think you want to use.17:17
B_LizzardI get your point.17:17
rozzinB_Lizzard: That's not the playlist. That's the DB of song-metadata.17:17
B_LizzardUm, I'm not even sure what you're doing, sir.17:17
B_LizzardAh, a mixing thing?17:17
rozzinB_Lizzard: See the URL I dropped earlier.17:18
rozzinHm. I seem to have dropped the useful commentary from the script.17:20
Action: rozzin goes and finds it, puts it back in...17:20
kristianpaulB_Lizzard: 12:16 < stripwax> yep, if it runs linux, then it could run the rockbox sdl app.17:21
kristianpaulfrom #rockbox17:21
B_LizzardAh, didn't know about that17:22
B_Lizzard*blood pressure rises*17:22
kyakxMff: when you have some time, could you have a look at https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/9044, please17:22
rozzinFixed: http://www.hackerposse.com/~rozzin/mpdjay17:26
rozzinI was going to work on copying the GJay algorithms into Rockbox, a few years ago,17:27
rozzinbut I didn't get any significant part of it done before I ended up deciding that Rockbox was a dead end.17:27
rozzinThat may not be true anymore.17:28
rozzinMPD+GJay+ncmpc/NanoNote actually seems pretty viable right now, though,17:28
rozzinand mostly more desirable than Rockbox.17:29
kristianpaulhttp://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2010-08/0097.shtml17:29
rozzinI totally don't get the concept of an `Android port'.17:31
rozzinAh, I see--Android actually had the native kit by that point.17:33
rozzinWas going to say, `how does rewriting the entire system from scratch in a different language qualify as a port?'.17:33
rozzinAnyway; the solicitation is out there. :)17:37
rozzinYow--no lack of traffic on the discussion list.17:53
qi-bot[commit] kyak: catch up with alsa-lib from openwrt feeds, fix versionsort http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/67a708218:37
tuxbrain_awayyay! the author of the avr-toolchain script where I had based to do the mipsel avr toolchain has bough 2 NN :)21:00
tuxbrain_away/s/bough/bought21:01
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: great !21:21
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: you are good making sales ;-)21:21
tuxbrain_awaywell not not the amount in that case what makes me so exicited.. is the client and his positive feedback on the avrfreaks forum  what makes me happy :)21:22
kristianpaulthats potencially more sales ! ;)21:29
kristianpaulYou're asking fro avrfreaks nock you door last night, woah ! that was fast21:30
kristianpaulnock and bouhgt21:30
tuxbrain_awaymmm I think I have found what I was searching for about SPI slave on AVR ... now I have just to understand it and translate the master part to  to 8:10 gpios http://www.rocketnumbernine.com/2009/07/03/using-spi-on-an-avr-3/21:36
tuxbrain_awayYAY! twice , blog post confirmed to apear in the Arduino oficial blog! :)21:41
tuxbrain_awaywpwrak: do you thing it will worth the meaning once produced to present atben/atusb in some way to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lowpan/charter/ guys?22:03
tuxbrain_awayat least to point to us if there is any linux oficial implematation of the protocol on going somewhere?22:04
tuxbrain_awayand/or any other hardware alredy on the market using 6Lowpan22:05
tuxbrain_awaymmm if this can be done with just an micro and an tiny lcd... what can we achieve with a NN? http://labs.teague.com/?p=933 well regards and good night :) going to sleep, tomorrow I have some NN to send :)22:21
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (6lowpan) it's probably not very appropriate to do outright advertizing. but if you participate there, you may be able to drop the name :)22:55
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (official linux) afaik, there's nothing that works very well. and certainly not in mainline. the linux-related action (very little of it) is on linux-zigbee22:56
wpwraktuxbrain_away: there are some devices on the market, some of which even work with linux. they're usually targetted at having more local intelligence, though, so they're more complex, more expensive, etc.22:57
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