#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-02-25

wpwrakwolfspraul: i think i may have things ready for shipping my monday. now, there's one problem: it seems that there's a customs restriction in argentina for non-commercial export of one shipment per person and month.01:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: what are the options ? shall i try to circumvent this ? just send everything to adam and he'll forward one set each to roh and richard ? other ?01:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: how is this being enforced?01:43
wolfspraulare you reading too many regulations again?01:43
wolfspraulwhy 'export'? can't you send out some gifts to some of your friends?01:44
wolfspraulan Argentine is only allowed to send one gift per month to his many friends in foreign countries?01:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: for sending things, they usually want a document number. so they could match numbers.01:45
wolfsprauldocument number? you can send those boards as regular letters, no?01:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: that's basically what the regulations say, yes. that's from the same page that's been a very reliable guide for what causes problems and what doesn't in the past01:46
wolfspraul'could match' - you are reading too many regulations again, don't you? :-)01:46
wolfspraulyou should read what the German customs pages say about taking a video camera to an international vacation trip01:46
wolfspraulgood thing that millions of Germans each year blatantly ignore this nonsense01:47
wolfspraulthey want you to declare the video camera with serial number etc in advance (need proof of purchase etc). then you get a re-entry permit.01:47
wolfspraulotherwise when you come back your video camera may be taxed as import.01:47
wolfspraulha ha01:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: not sure what happens if i send things undeclared. could get confiscated. customs have a 50% hit rate for finding cheques among regular mail, so i wouldn't count on them easily overlooking things01:47
wpwraki guess every once in a while, someone does get bothered this way :)01:48
wolfspraulwell I cannot tell you how crazy Argentine customs or mail handling is.01:48
wolfspraulthere are a lot of regulations that have no let's say 'match' in reality :-)01:49
wolfspraulthey are just there to justify the jobs of the people that are twiddling their thumbs every day, but can claim to be the guarantors of stability, or whatever01:49
rohcant you send them as 'nonfunctional prototypes, examples' or so?01:49
wpwrakbut here it's also a big difference between the things you carry with you as a traveler and the things you send by mail. with the latter, they have all the time in the world to search for something they can use.01:49
wolfspraulI'd say relax. you need to try.01:49
wolfspraulif you are so paranoid, send some broken ones as test letters first.01:49
wpwrakroh: i'd send them as "samples without commercial value"01:50
wolfspraulthe test is cheaper than a long discussion here.01:50
wolfspraulwhy can't this just be a birthday card?01:50
wolfspraulwith some electronic attachment01:50
wolfspraulyou can buy them in every stationery in the whole world01:50
wolfspraulbuy some birthday cards, and personalize them a little01:51
wolfspraulattach the boards on them01:51
wpwrakit's a bit thick for a birthday card :) the programmer boards have protruding contacts that need to be protected. so the whole things is about 1 cm thick.01:51
wolfspraulargentina is not north korea. if one can trust the news just a little.01:52
wolfspraulI don't know, you have to decide.01:52
wolfspraulit sounds like you are reading too many regulations, and thinking too much. :-)01:52
wolfspraulwpwrak: roh should tell you when he orders 10 whatever in china, they take the time to ship as 10 separate letters, and add a hand-written note into each one so it passes German customs as a 'gift'01:53
wolfspraulcall that CUSTOMER SERVICE!01:54
wpwrakwell, your choice. i'll have four sets of boards: 4 x (1 x atusb, 1 x atben, 1 x (atusb-pgm + ubb)). you tell me how and where i shall send them. the rest is up to fate :-)01:54
rohwolfspraul: hrhr01:54
wolfspraulI have been in argentina twice, for a few days each.01:54
rohtrue. a friend of mine ordered sdcards and they came tesa-stripped to greeting cards01:54
wolfspraulmaybe I live in China too long01:54
wpwrakroh: nice :)01:54
rohi am also so glad my package to taiwan went through01:55
wolfspraulthe attitude here is 'just get the shit done and the money paid' (money first). talk and especially paper is meaningless.01:55
wolfspraulthe Chinese seem to be quite successful with that economically, if the rest of the world has time and money for paperwork - fine.01:55
rohwelll.. in the end china seems to work more on the 'pragmatic' side of things01:56
wolfspraulroh: yes it went well.01:56
wpwrakshipping choices i know are: regular mail (not sure if only air mail overseas or also surface mail), EMS, and FedEx, DHL, UPS, TNT01:56
rohalso.. in the end the country can act like a supernational company if neccessary.. that for sure helps move things01:56
wolfspraulI'd say regular mail, tape into a birthday greeting card. try with broken boards first.01:57
wolfspraulI go bottom up - test the cheapest most underground way first :-)01:57
rohwe dont have emx here. but the last 4 + dpd and stuff like hermes and gls01:57
wolfspraulat the top end we have fedex01:57
wolfspraultotal overkill01:57
wpwrakwhat do i do with the atusb-pgm adapters ?01:57
wolfspraulfedex will help you overwhelm whatever customs idiot is in the way with so much paper and numbers that they will just let it pass :-)01:57
rohddos a hole into the customs firewall ;)01:58
wpwrakhere's a picture: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusb-pgm-20110203.jpg01:58
wolfspraulroh: do you know the German rules about 'video cameras'01:58
wolfspraulit's really hilarious01:58
wolfspraulyou are supposed to get this 're-rentry permit' in advance01:58
wpwrak(video cameras) probably the same for laptops and such01:59
wpwrakevery country has this01:59
wolfspraulif the 20+ million Germans leaving Germany each year would actually do this, the offices you are supposed to go to in person (!) to show your 're-entry equipment' would be flooded with lines several miles long.01:59
wolfspraulevery smartphone would need to be registered01:59
wolfspraulonly a government employee has his brains reduced to the point that he doesn't have to laugh at this. well, they make their money that way, so it has to be taken seriously :-)01:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: the difference between germany and argentina is that here, you have those offices with lines that go around several blocks ...02:00
wolfspraulmaybe in another 20 years in a big 'reform' those regulations are abolished.02:00
rohwolfspraul: dunno. special import tax?02:01
wolfspraulwhen you enter Germany with a video camera, you may have bought it abroad.02:01
wolfspraulany tech equipment02:01
wolfspraulthe official way to proove that you had it before is that before your trip, you go to some office, put the stuff on the table, together with purchase receipts02:02
wolfspraulthen you get some form that will allow you to 're-enter' Germany with that same (serial-number) equipment tax-free02:02
rohi know people like harald and others who travel with like 10 phones and equipment like 19" servers in hardcase trolleys...02:02
wolfsprauloh sure02:02
wolfspraulbut a government employee won't quit his job because his task has been 100% obsoleted02:03
rohjust clean the crap and make sure you can make up a good story and dont have forbidden stuff in there02:03
wolfspraulworst case he goes to the office every day reading the newspaper or surfing the web02:03
rohwolfspraul: they do.02:03
rohbut not only in such jobs. all the 'normal office workers' do02:03
wpwrakwhen a shipment via mail arrives, and they think they want a look or it's too valuable to just let the postman collect the fees, they send you a card inviting you to come to the customs office. there, you pull a number from a roll, then wait in a crowded room for about 1 h until it's your turn. then they take your card, let you pay whatever it due for storage, have you show your document and sign, and then send you to the next room. th02:03
wolfspraulok we should be nice to them :-)02:04
wpwrakere, you can sit (usually). over a speaker, the shipment numbers are read. no display, so you have to pay attention. when your is announced, after another hour or so, you can proceed inside to the customs desks.02:04
roh70% of your time you need to be there and waste time to get payed. so one does it. work seems only to be 30% or less02:04
wpwrakthere, they have a quick look at it, give you a form, with which you go to a bank branch, pay the duties in cash, then come back and retrieve your parcel. that's the level of efficiency you have to expect from argentine bureaucracy.02:05
rohwpwrak: sounds like germany in totally unoptimized02:05
rohhere the cost-pressure of privatisation killed lots of the bloat. now less people need to work too much and do the same or worse service than before and earn less at it.02:06
rohalso i wouldnt worry too much about the argentinian customs. i worry about german customs. packages from south america02:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: atusb-pgm is about 7 mm thick. atusb, with its usb connector, about 6 mm. so, greeting cards ?02:07
wolfspraulregular mail may be treated harshly in some sorting machines, like rolling around a curve. maybe it got better now.02:08
rohisnt there something, some goods, cheap,  easy to export, something typical argentinian?02:08
wolfspraulif I would live in Argentina, I would test this type of things with broken/fake stuff.02:08
wpwrakroh: meat ;-)02:08
rohhm. difficult at customs. 'not dead enough yet'02:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: we can do that. will delay things even further, of course02:09
rohi would say 'wickel es in ein schnitzel' .. but the time it takes to travel and eu customs on bio-stuff... naaah02:10
wpwrakroh: wrap it in smelly socks ? ;-)02:10
wpwrakroh: actually, they require a certificate of sterilization or such for clothes02:11
wpwrakroh: well, except for obviously  new ones02:11
wolfspraulWerner in the regulation jungle02:11
wolfspraulit's funny how much text people can write02:11
wolfspraulas someone who can type > 100 words / minute I sympathize with them02:12
rohwolfspraul: true. what a gigantic waste of time02:12
wpwrakroh: you also get stopped at some province borders for insecticide treatment (they just spray your entire car. of course, you have to pay for that service.)02:12
rohhm. 3:12 am.. and -8°C again02:14
rohfeels like -13.2°C ... great. thats less unfriendly than yesterday02:15
xMffyeah, spring approaching in germany ;)02:15
xMffthis winter felt like being in siberia and not europe...02:16
rohits the same in berlin every year as far as i can remember02:16
rohbeen here 10 years with some interruptions now02:16
wolfspraulok so we have 3 recipients: roh, richard, adam02:20
rohhm. not sure.. seems the mailserver stayed in one piece02:21
wpwrakroh: still connection refused02:29
rohwpwrak: i know. still working on it. cant do a full backup of it due to -enospace02:30
rohi wish we could refurbish the setup to new boxes costing the same02:31
rohwpwrak: i just learned that only the host machine is nullrouted. the service hosts they let online02:31
rohi cant even ssh to chandra. i am tunneling through agni02:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: tough call.02:33
wolfspraulI would probably send as regular letter, maybe really put a birthday card around it (even a self made one, just fold a thick cardboard)02:37
wolfspraulbut I have never done it before myself, and I'm hesitating to do anything I haven't tested :-)02:38
wolfspraulmaybe there are floods of fake shipments with sloppy 'happy birthday' notes jotted down somewhere already, and 'happy birthday' is a good way to make someone stop the letter? don't know02:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: chances are that people try all sorts of things, yes. your "try to beat the system wherever you can" attitude is rather common in argentina :)02:39
wolfspraulit may still be better than trying to comply with obsolete regulations02:40
wolfspraulfilling out lost of forms and in the end making a formal (!) mistake in that approach02:40
wolfspraulif you say 'yes' in field A.23, you have to supply additional form E-1002:41
wolfsprauland becuse E-10 is missing, shipment is held02:41
wolfspraulor best - if H.23-4 on page 17 is left empty, you need to supply additional ...02:43
wolfspraul"hell yeah, I overlooked H.23-4 on p. 17"02:43
wolfsprauldo you know someone who is mailing out a lot of stuff?02:45
wpwraki think it's just the pro forma invoice plus somehow avoiding the 1 shipment per personmonth trap02:45
wolfspraulthat souds like very hard/never enforced02:45
wolfspraulthat's just on paper to that people cannot build a big business without registering (and paying taxes) at some point02:45
wolfspraulvirtual threat02:45
wpwrak(ship a lot) no, not really02:46
rohwpwrak: care to try mail?02:46
rohsita is not up yet. so no lists and incoming mail. but the imap should do.02:47
wolfspraula lot of these regulations are written for legal reasons02:48
wolfspraulyou have a big legal system, and it needs to be legally tight otherwise lawyers have too much upside for their clients02:48
wolfspraulso some regulation A is only written as the logical counterpart of regulation B02:48
wolfspraulA is not actually enforceable, but it can be pulled out when needed02:48
wolfspraulso let's say you run a big shipping business shipping thousands of whatever per month. after 4 years some auditor finds you and wants more taxes - he can pull out this regulation.02:49
wpwrakroh: imap works ! thanks ! now i just need the new mails to flow in, too :)02:49
wolfspraulin my experience, if you really read regulatory texts directly, 90% or more of the stuff in there is there to set a certain legal baseline02:49
wolfspraulnot because this is enforced in reality every single day02:49
wolfspraulyou need to keep that in mind when you are trying to send 3 little pieces of nearly nothing to 3 friends02:50
wolfspraulthe regulation was never written with that kind of target in mind, guaranteed. Argentina is not that crazy.02:50
rohwpwrak: working on sita already. we should reset passwords for mail soon too.02:51
rohjust to be sure.02:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: don't know how strictly they enforce those "flow control" regulations. there's also something for imports, which they mentioned when i was at customs about every month because things from openmoko had tripped up another trap, but they didn't seem to be too concerned about that rule at that time02:52
wolfspraulyou read those regulatory texts, and you mentally apply it all to yourself02:52
wolfspraulI don't know why om had all these problems. I have been shipping hundreds of packages all over the world the last 1.5 years.02:53
wpwrakroh: yeah, better safe than sorry. or leave the old ones around as honeytraps :)02:53
wolfsprauland except for 1 airmail letter to Colombia (which was never delivered), I neved had one single problem.02:53
rohto be fair: i'd like to do some kind of 'reset' somewhere02:53
wolfsprauland that lost one I didn't send myself, so I'm not 100% how or where from it was exactly sent.02:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: perhaps argentine customs are just a little nastier than the rest ? :)02:54
rohmake it all smaller, easier to administrate and less work to do so. need to check that with gismo and harald02:54
wpwrakroh: what did you have in mind of resetting ?02:54
rohmaybe weed out most of the old accounts. see who is forwarding mail and who is not checking at all.02:55
rohwpwrak: the moko universe.02:55
rohwe have quite some overhead at some places left over from the internal/external complex account seperation etc.02:55
wpwrakhmm yes02:55
rohi'd like to change to 'kiss vms'02:56
rohone does mail, one does lists (one of these is also primary mx), one docs, one wiki, one git, one admin-foo and one downloads and one buildhost (if we still want to)02:57
wpwrak"roh loves VAX/VMS" ? ;-)02:57
rohnah. 'make the vm as noncomplex as possible' .. dont mix services (always a hell to untangle/fix when broken)02:58
rohalso makes backup dead easy and moving to other hosting muuuuch easier02:58
wpwrak3/5 atusb enumerate. 2/5 will need more encouragement ...02:59
rohi just need to shutdown the vm, backup it as always, move the tarball over and restore, restart and fix the routing. yes it has downtime (could be done without with shared routing and storage)02:59
Action: roh loves self-contained stuff.03:00
rohwpwrak: ah. still bugfixing the hw?03:00
rjeffrieswolfspraul ?03:03
rjeffrieswpwrak are you here03:06
wpwrakroh: yeah. building that stuff takes a looong time ...03:12
wpwrakroh: i've basically been making boards for three weeks in a row now. well, including a few false starts with the atben redesign, and discarding the silabs-based atusb boards i had prepared earlier.03:13
wpwrakrjeffries: yup03:15
wpwrakroh: (silabs) just unpopulated pcbs, luckily03:16
rohwhich silabs?03:21
roheh. which chips03:21
rjeffrieswpwrak I think I let the fab quote die, thinking about the "why" do not wish to burn brudges for next time03:33
wpwrakrjeffries: don't want to try to see if this can be improved ?03:46
rjeffrieswell, in any case it will not make sense to buy fabs, since tuxbrain_away tuxbrain has a firm order in process03:47
wpwrakrjeffries: we still don't know how good/bad his UBBs will be. yours could be plan B03:49
wpwrakmail ! mail ! a little, at least :)03:49
rohwill be back in a few minutes (+ retry wobble) i hope03:52
wpwrakroh: great. thanks a lot !!!03:54
rjeffrieswpwrak I did ask her if the quote reflected all conditions of fab spec. was worried they had shined on the laser cutting03:59
wpwrakrjeffries: hmm, may be better to ask what it would take to bring the cost down. also, that fab may not be the best place for a low price at such quantities. their typical range may be well below 100.04:01
wpwrakrjeffries: also, when you visit their web site, their list of equipment doesn't mention a laser cutter. but that's okay. if they have a mill that can do it, that's just as good.04:01
rjeffriesokI'll continue the dialog04:02
rjeffriesalso remember I have anotrher guy waiting to bid.04:02
wpwrakrjeffries: yeah, competition is good. the invisible hand of the market ;-)04:03
rjeffriesbut... this is very likely a game,,, with no order from me forthcoming04:04
wpwrakrjeffries: playing games you learn for the real hunt04:05
rohwpwrak: yay. mail got in04:06
rjeffrieson the quoute from spain was that a 2-sided board?04:07
wpwraki think so04:07
rohyay. lists work too. now we need to wait04:15
wpwrakroh: just got "die 5." :)04:17
rohalso wrote a mail to community with that link. somehow i have problems just letting it die04:40
wpwrakroh: letting it die ... the community ? the lists ? the server ? ...04:46
rohexactly :)04:47
rohchandra is a wreck.. basically i'd like to redo some service-vms as well as all besides agni (already a recent ubuntu)04:48
rohs/all/all vm-hosts/g04:48
rohi think i'll start by moving all disabled vms we dont use anymore from the disks to the backup storage (and get that one online again)04:50
wpwrakroh: so mail will live on for a bit longer ?04:51
rohi hope so. its one of the services which need updating (now lenny) and moving to a better hw as well as a fresher vmhost-os04:52
wpwrakinteresting. now the board that didn't enumerate before do05:38
wpwrakwhat i changed: nothing at all05:39
wpwrakmaybe another case of flux resistance. the more it dries, the less if conducts ...05:39
qi-bot[commit] kyak: moc: various changes http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/51e26e306:02
rohwpwrak: got any flux cleaner?06:03
rohspray on, press out with air06:03
xiangfukyak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Kinyin-chinese-notepad.png06:16
kyakxiangfu: awesome! i will add it to applications: )06:17
xiangfukyak: already in there.06:17
kyakoh! even better :)06:17
xiangfukyak: if I run 'kinyin' --> 'fbgrab /root/kinyin.png' --> scp to pc --> the picture not correct.06:18
xiangfukyak: I have to run 'kinyin' --> 'fbgrab /root/kinyin_1.png' --> 'exit kinyin' --> 'imgv /root/kinyin_1.png' --> 'fbgrab' again. --> scp to pc --> picture show up.06:19
kyakxiangfu: i know, seems that fbgrab is not working quite correctly in some cases. If you do convert kinyin.png kinyin.jpg on your PC, it works fine06:19
kyakconvert kinyin.png kinyin.png should also work.. it seems to me that fbgrab is adding some transparetn layer or something06:21
xiangfukyak: ok. screen shot update: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Kinyin-chinese-notepad.png06:22
kyakoh, much cleaner now!06:22
wolfspraul06:20 < xiangfu> kyak: ok. screen shot update: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Kinyin-chinese-notepad.png06:25
kyakwejp: a question: can gmu's mp3 decoder work also with libmad, or libmpg123 only?06:31
wpwrakroh: (flux cleaner) naw, ran out of it. it's kinda hard to find, too. several passes with water and alcohol seem to work, too.06:36
rohhard to find?06:38
rohhm. adam should send you a carepackage from asia06:38
rohok. i'll head home now. 7:40 already (outdoors gets annoying. people are awake and running around)06:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: so how shall things be sent ? dimensions will be around 10 mm x 50 mm x 120 mm for each kit, if minimizing thickness06:58
tuxbrainarg!!! gcc version I have being compiling doesn't have atmega328 support!!!06:58
kyakwejp: seems that it's libmpg123 only :)06:59
Action: tuxbrain knoks his head on the keybq9reh opgnq fpgiuq qpreytabmpodif06:59
wpwraktuxbrain: no problem. it'll only take a day or two to make another ;-)06:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: I would still try a regular airmail letter07:01
wolfspraulor fedex, but then it's a lot more expensive07:02
wolfspraulA LOT07:02
wolfspraulfor the airmail letter, maybe try 1 first, wait a week to see whether it arrives07:02
wolfspraulif you want to send it as a regular mail package, and you need to fill out a small customs form somewhere, I'd say "usb stick"07:03
wpwrakwhich one shall go first ? a)dam, j)oachim, or r)ichard ?07:04
wolfspraulpick the nearest and most common thing :-)07:04
wolfspraulI'd say roh, adam is in the midst of some critical m1 rc3 fixes that he wants to finish first07:04
wolfspraulAdam only needs his as a guideline through the production process.07:05
wolfspraulroh will probably look into mechanical, and richard into software stack (?) hopefully...07:06
wpwrakregular mail takes <= 10-12 days to the US, <= 14-15 days to europe/asia07:07
wpwrak(typical time)07:08
wpwraki've seen things spend between 1-3 weeks, so this seems to be a reasonably accurate estimate07:09
wolfspraulwow that's slow07:11
wpwrakand a customs form is required. let's see what it says ...07:12
wolfspraulfor a letter or for a package?07:12
wolfspraulnormally the customs snippet is only for packages07:13
wpwrakpackage. let's see what it is for letters ...07:14
wolfspraulif you send as a small package, I'd declare it as 'usb stick' or even 'usb gadget'07:20
wpwrakdon't specify anything07:20
wolfspraulgive them something to chew on, if they want to chew07:20
wpwrakhmm, it's three distinct items, one with a cable between boards07:21
wolfspraul"adapter cable"07:21
wolfspraulit doesn't matter much, for sure07:21
wolfspraulthe only problem is I feel really lost commenting on which way to send something out of Argentina is best07:22
wolfspraulso I'm just guessing07:22
wolfspraulroh just send this package to Adam and it was pretty good07:22
wolfspraultracking wasn't great but worked07:22
wolfspraulwas delivered by normal Taiwan Post on the other side07:23
wpwraki know that letters containing letters pass without problems. i know that other stuff with courier passes with only minor problems (and i think i can anticipate these by now)07:25
wpwraki have no idea what happens if you send something that isn't a letter as a letter. i know that at least inbound mail is examined carefully enough that they caught two cheques out of 3-4 (and stole them)07:26
wolfspraulrelax. who says that 'letter' cannot be 'electronic letter'.07:26
wolfspraulI can ship an ipad and say I thought it's a 'letter'.07:27
wpwrake-mail ;-) hah, why haven't i thought of this ;-)07:27
wolfspraulbecause when you turn it on it shows my letter!07:27
wolfspraulI left it right there on the screen!07:27
wpwrakgood luck arguing that ;-)07:27
wolfspraulno problem07:27
wolfsprauldidn't you see that Apple advertisement?07:27
wpwraki think they'll just pocket your ipad and be done with it :)07:27
wolfspraulnot sure. but I am somewhat serious with my argument.07:28
wolfsprauldon't always assume you know or understand everything.07:28
wolfspraulI am not saying I know how to get away with something.07:28
wolfspraulbut yes, you can totally stand there and say you thought this ipad is a letter. why not.07:28
wolfspraulI left my text right on the screen!07:28
wolfspraultrust me this happens07:28
wolfsprauland not by people who do it on purpose07:28
wpwrakwell, i don't disagree that the average alzheimer patient may believe all sort of things, but ...07:29
wpwraki sometimes try the "me foreigner, don't understand nothing" approach, but it rarely works07:30
wolfspraulkids grow up with this stuff07:34
wpwrakwell, some people dry their pets in the microwave ...07:37
wpwrak... or at least try to :)07:37
wolfspraulbtw, in China they are leading in sniffiness again. first few times when I send a package I still felt somewhat insulted. they open it right in front of you, and peel through everything you have their, asking questions.07:37
wolfspraulwith letters, they are touching around with more sensitivity than the average urologist would go about a prostate check07:37
wolfsprauland if anything doesn't 'feel' right - asking questions07:38
wolfspraulof course there is still a flood of stuff being sent in all imaginable ways, because the other side (the senders) are equally ignorant of whatever regulation may be written somewhere07:38
wolfspraulignorance is bliss07:38
wolfspraulif the argentine post has a small international package, maybe that's a good idea07:40
wolfspraulthat would be the same as roh's package to Adam07:40
wolfspraulit would be trackable, has a short customs form (I'd just say "usb adapter" or so), and it would hopefully arrive in about a week or so, at reasonable cost07:41
wpwrakthey have small parcels, with customs form07:41
wolfspraulthe tracking number gives you at least the illusion that you know more about the package, and one could assume they are trying to move those faster through the system.07:41
wpwraktracking at least inside argentina. and the recipient has to sign.07:43
wpwraktracking may also discourage theft a little07:43
wolfspraulyou really think they will apply that 1 package/month rule?07:46
wolfspraulif they do, you probably cannot drop all 3 packages at the same time :-)07:46
wolfspraulunless you write 3 different sender addresses onto them07:46
wolfspraulsince multiple people can live at your same address, that shouldn't be too much of a problem either :-)07:46
wolfspraulthere are street addresses with thousands of businesses 'residing' at that very same small office building :-)07:47
wpwraki don't know what they control. if they want to see the sender's ID, then it's not so easy07:47
wolfspraultrue true, many things are possible. so you need to try.07:47
wolfspraulsee what is actually going on in reality.07:48
wolfspraulin China I need to show my passport (show = they scan it) to receive an Amazon book shipment07:48
wolfspraulbig brother is collecting data, the more the better07:48
wpwrakyou almost certainly have to put the ID number somewhere. they ask that for virtually any transaction. (also credit card payments, for example)07:48
wpwrakwell, books are ammunition ;-)07:48
wolfsprauluntil you try it's all speculation07:49
wolfspraulwhat if you give a fake/random ID? do you think it's actually cross-checked in any way?07:51
wpwrakah .. that form is an internationally standardized document. interesting.07:52
wpwrakprobably not, but i don't have any fake IDs07:52
wpwrakdon't know how hard it would be to get some made or - probably easier - get a stolen one ...07:53
qi-bot[commit] kyak: moc: rearrange dependencies http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2dc783807:53
wolfsprauloh, I was more thinking if you just have to write down a number, maybe you can make it up on the spot :-)07:53
wolfspraulyou should see me filling out forms :-)07:54
wolfspraulthe more data is being asked from me, the more I happily provide (ahem)07:54
wolfspraulnobody showed the regulation to me at the right time that one wasn't allowed to fill out the form in drunk state07:54
wolfspraula lot of these things are just run so the other side has a bit of paperwork so some people can have a steady income filing stuff07:55
wolfspraulnot to be taken too seriously :-)07:55
wolfspraul"nur kein stress"07:55
wpwrakhmm, the thingy they require can range from simple to the equivalent of the declaration you include with a courier shipment. it's the CN22 form. simple: http://www.altacarta.com/espanol/customs.html07:56
wpwrakinvolved: ftp://ftp.royalmail.com/Downloads/public/ctf/rm/CN22_2.pdf07:57
wolfspraulI would say "USB adapter", I would not check gift or sample, and write the value as 8 USD07:58
wolfspraulalternatively you can also check 'gift', 'sample' would be my last option07:58
wpwraksample can be a trap, yes07:58
wolfspraulthe key is the low value, but not zero07:58
wpwrakyeah. zero is another trap :)07:59
wolfsprauland a reasonably small thing, 'usb adapter' is perfect, everybody has heard of 'usb'07:59
wpwrakthe problem is that it's three distinct parts and only one looks like a usb adapter08:00
wolfspraulnot in a million years would anyone object, imho08:01
wolfspraulthen say 'adapter cable', how about that?08:01
wolfspraulor just 'adapter'08:01
wpwrakthe art is to make it look harmless and not create the impression that you're actually trying to hide something :)08:01
wolfsprauldon't worry08:01
wolfspraulmillions of things are being sent around every day08:02
wolfspraulI read some numbers that 10% or so of medicine in the US is now coming in illegally in packages from all sorts of countries08:02
wolfspraulbecause medicine prices in the US are very high, and many people simply cannot afford them, have no health care etc.08:03
wolfspraulso it's either I get that cheap antibiotic shipped over from 'country of your choice', or I have no antibiotic at all08:03
wolfsprauland I guarantee you, the flood will come, every day, and is unstoppable08:04
wolfspraulin all that mess you have your 3 earth-shaking ben-wpan boards now...08:04
wolfspraulI'm mostly worried we loose a lot of time if the shipment goes missing, and also your time to make them.08:05
wolfspraulthe 'let's ship cheap antibiotics' people don't have that problem08:05
wolfspraulthey will win economically08:06
wolfspraulthey will just send the stuff in 100 different forms and ways and can work with percentages that pass in this or that way08:06
wolfspraulbut since about a year ago I have shipped way over 500 packages here and there, and have to say: extremely few problems08:07
wolfspraulI lost exactly one as I mentioned, and that was sent in a bit of chaotic way, so I'm not sure where it was actually mishandled.08:07
wolfsprauleverything else, 100%, arrive08:07
wolfspraulletters, packages, courier shipments08:08
wolfspraulthe nastiest problems is stuff into mainland China08:08
wolfspraulChinese customs has the advantage of being able to hire tens of thousands of little ants to go through stuff08:08
wpwrakfor your shipments, did you make them as a private person ? or as a company exporting things ?08:08
wolfspraulthen they have draconian paranoid dictators running the country08:08
wolfspraulall sorts of things08:09
wolfspraulprivate, company, this that08:09
wolfspraulit doesn't matter08:09
wolfspraulalso nowadays what I see a lot is that courier companies are rejecting stuff08:09
wolfspraulthat makes it easier08:09
wolfspraulthey specialize in certain areas08:09
wolfspraulso they say "no electronics into China"08:09
wolfspraulor "no phones into Taiwan"08:09
wolfspraulbut then with others it's no problem at all :-)08:09
wolfspraulgo figure08:09
wolfspraula lot of them are fuzzy about batteries now08:10
wpwrakor toner cartridges :)08:10
wolfspraulthe real stuff that is hot is (aside from the obvious nuclear, weapons, drugs) - medicine, chemicals, pornography or political content (in some countries)08:11
wolfspraulso if you think about it that way, really our stuff is the most harmless possible08:11
wolfspraulit's nothing actually08:12
wolfspraulit doesn't even work right :-)08:12
wpwrakwhat's also hot here is any form of tax evasion08:12
wolfspraulnot sure08:12
wolfspraulagain the courier companies are behind this08:12
wolfspraultax authorities are not stupid08:12
wolfspraulthey work with fedex, ups directly08:12
wolfspraulso you don't need to worry, if you use a courier company they will reject if if there is a tax problem08:13
wolfspraulas you already mentioned with the 1000 USD or 3000 USD rule - that type of thing08:13
wpwrakthen there's the flow control thing ... well, there's but on way to find out whether they check this08:14
wolfspraulbut can you imagine how many things are being sent all the time? and can you imagine how much whatever regulation is written up somewhere matches the reality every single day?08:14
wpwrakthis is something that won't be caught at the counter and since non-courier parcels have no phone number, there won't be a call either, just return to sender08:14
wolfspraulI think you need to move to testing phase.08:15
wolfspraulif you are too worried, send some broken stuff first.08:15
wolfspraulhave some fun, be a little Chinese :-)08:15
wpwraknaw, the first one should pass if properly declared08:15
wolfspraulGerman style still08:15
wpwrak#2 and #3 are riskier08:15
wolfspraulfirst read, then understand, then act08:15
wolfspraulchinese style would be: act, try to survive, act again, try to survive, rinse & repeat08:16
wolfspraulno read, especially no understand. can skip those steps.08:16
wpwraksign with XXX ;-)08:18
wpwrakhmm. probably best to declare it as "gift". "other" could be interpreted as commercial shipment.08:25
larsci guess half of the consumer electronics stuff leaving china is a declared as a gift08:28
wpwraklarsc: so "gift" is the new "commercial" ? ;-)08:29
larsci guess ;)08:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: will roh just do the case or do you expect him to also use his devices for any EMI measurements ?08:38
wpwrakaw_: will you need a device with very accurate physical dimensions ? (to show to pcb/smt manufacturers, to make a fixture, whatever) or would be some 0.2-0.3 mm of tolerance be acceptable for your use ?08:40
wpwrak(the atbens are all quite accurate, but only two of the atusbs are close to the nominal dimensions while the others are a bit smaller.)08:41
wpwrak(layout and such is identical. in the small devices, components/traces are just a bit closer to the board edge)08:42
aw_wpwrak, yes, if you could mark the tolerance somewhere clearly.08:46
aw_actually i know the pcb_edge's line width, surely we mark the difference firstly before I sending to pcb maker, u know there will be probably having surprises while asking them and finally they could even not produce it. so i don't know yet.08:49
wolfspraulI would not do 'gift' as I said above. leave both unchecked and make it a small value.08:49
wolfspraul8 USD08:49
wolfsprauleven in Germany stuff that is declared less than 22 EUR passes without any vat (assuming the declared value is deemed reasonable)08:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: the most common kind of CN22 has "gift", "commercial sample", "documents", and "other"08:51
wolfsprauland you have to check one of them?08:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: "other" suggests that, yes :)08:51
wolfspraulthis is what you posted before, I would check neither one08:52
wpwrakhere are a lot more, all with 4 choices: http://tungblog.atikomtrirat.com/2008/06/cn22.html08:53
wolfspraulgift or other or nothing (sometimes when you check nothing the post guy will just check one for you)08:56
wolfspraulit all doesn't matter much for what you are sending, I'm sure08:56
wpwrakyeah, probably not08:57
wpwrakhah, found one from argentina ! http://www.flickr.com/photos/33164377@N08/3101061054/09:02
wpwrakthat's the simple form09:02
kyaknames wolfsprau :)09:15
xiangfuFusin: Hi10:36
xiangfuFusin: do you have Ben NanoNote ?10:36
Fusinyep, but without display10:36
Fusini have to return for exchanging10:36
xiangfuFusin so you can still login your ben by using ssh. ;-)10:40
Fusinyep that works ;)10:40
Fusinbut bot usefull on the road ;)10:40
Fusin-bot +not10:41
qi-bot[commit] kyak: moc depends on libsamplerate http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/17dd26b10:58
wejpkyak, yes it works with mpg123 only11:58
kristianpaulwolfspraul: http://cryptome.org/0003/gwf-father.htm You may like this12:00
kristianpaulMorning all btw :-)12:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: hey, did you send the package already?12:35
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes I know these kinds of things.13:00
kristianpaulah, ok, you live there (near), so :-)13:01
wolfspraulI'm not sure what's funny about abusing education to manipulate and enslave others, but it's no news that human behavior can sink incredibly low. at least that guy serves as a good warning sign for that :-)13:02
wolfspraultheir days are numbered though13:04
kristianpaul(abusing education to manipulate and enslave others), You should read to Paulo Freire13:05
qi-bot[commit] kyak: mpg123 and libmpg123 initial port http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/bdfc6c113:22
qi-bot[commit] kyak: gmu: build support for mp3 (if BUILD_PATENTED is set) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8f5504b13:22
kyakwejp: works very good, thank you :)13:22
kyakwejp: if you could accumulate the patches here (http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/8f5504b/gmu/patches) in your next gmu version, this would be gret, too13:24
kyakthey are related to nanonote.mk, so should be good13:24
wejpok, i'll have a look at them13:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: no i haven't sent anything yet. just got up :) today, i'll see if i can find decent packaging material nearby and find out if the postal shops around the corner do this sort of shipment of if i have to go to a larger post office.14:45
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: include GNU tar http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/7c6146a16:48
rjeffrieswpwrak You have mail18:09
wpwrakrjeffries: ah, werner@openmoko.org works again. better to use that one.18:14
rjeffriesyou are tough to track18:15
rjeffriesshall I resenf18:15
wpwrakrjeffries: 3) would there be a place that can do it at a lower cost ? :)18:15
wpwrak(resend) naw, don't worry18:15
rjeffriesI think thAT QUESTION IS IMPLIED she is a sales person after all18:15
wpwrakrjeffries: in general, you could offer a bit more information. e.g., in this case, that you already know of a similar order in spain that was _much_ cheaper (although with tin-plating instead of ENIG, and we don't know the outcome yet). that would set the expectations. otherwise, you may get a slightly reduced offer, and have to "haggle" things down.18:29
rjeffriesclever DIY hack for very cheap SD card adapter: http://www.instructables.com/id/Cheap-DIY-SD-card-breadboard-socket/18:29
wpwrakthe inverse of our problem :)18:30
rjeffrieswpwrak understood. however since on  UBB it is now very unlikley that I will proceed for a few reasons:18:30
rjeffries1) Tuxbrain_away has corned the GLOBAL market for UBBs ;)18:30
rjeffries2) the demand for UBB will take some time to build18:31
rjeffries3) if UBB was significant Adam and Wolfspraul can do it cheapest of all18:31
rjeffries4) I am not a reseller of Ben Nanonote18:31
wpwraki was just referring to your request for an updated quote18:32
larscwpwrak: you don't have a tool by any changes which creates adds oob-data with ecc to an gta01 image?18:32
rjeffriesanyway I have learned a lot so far. assuming I back away (as makes sense) I should not wear out Paula or she will never respond for future quotes ;)18:32
wpwraklarsc: hmm .. no, never did such things "off-line"18:33
rjeffrieswpwrak the most inteeresting (missing) data point would be is wolfsprail would use my fab spec and get quote in China18:34
rjeffriesthat will set the bar18:34
wpwraka .cn quote for comparison would interesting, yes. well, we'll sort of get that for atben. that device is quite similar, just a little larger.18:36
rjeffriesTwo potentially useful sources of DIY parts: http://embedded-lab.com/blog/?p=176619:42
rjeffrieswpwrak for atBen how many vias?19:43
qi-bot[commit] kyak: w3m: build-in image support (not without ugly hacks) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2b645dd19:44
rjeffriessweet  http://dangerousprototypes.com/2011/02/24/xqfp-breakouts-back-in-stock/19:46
kyakhm, i just noticed that the http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications has some broken formatting...19:47
rjeffrieswpwrak this little system could be a Most Excellent target to talk with your atBen 802.15.4 device19:48
kristianpauldammit, my getmail is getting mails twice!20:28
qi-bot[commit] kyak: abook: works fine at 53x20 minimum http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/463c20c20:30
kristianpaulmessage deleted, hmm, really? -> gandi20:33
wpwrakrjeffries: (vias) atben: 5621:16
wpwrakrjeffries: (zigduino) a bit pricy, but yeah, why not21:17
rjeffrieswpwrak what is agood alternative to zigduino?21:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: che21:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://www.sase.com.ar/2011/case/articulos-case/el-papel-del-hardware-copyleft-en-la-ensenanza-de-sistemas-embebidos/21:25
kristianpaulhope wolfgang add this to news some how..21:27
rjeffriesanybody know how to get Google to translate a PDF? http://www.sase.com.ar/2011/files/2011/02/case2011_submission_18.pdf21:36
rjeffriesthanks kristianpaul !!21:37
kristianpaulYou may need convert it to text first21:39
kristianpaulThere are bunch of apps for apps, but i never did it ;)21:39
Jay7pdf2txt :)21:40
qi-bot[commit] kyak: kinyin: resize open/save dialog to 320x240 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e50bd7f21:42
wpwrakrjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it directly, three of the programming pins work both ways (and you could even reuse reset if you dare)21:52
rjeffriesthanks Jay721:54
rjeffriesinteresting idea! 13:50 <wpwrak> rjeffries: (alternative) you could just modify the atusb design - or even reuse it22:00
wpwrakrjeffries: after all, if i can make such devices at home, others can, too ;-)22:02
rjeffrieswpwrak remind me shich avr chip you used? did you bring most  of the signals out or...22:03
wpwrakrjeffries: atmega32u2. no, as few as possible. the board is already crowded enough as it as. you have three signals you can reuse without any difficulties. one more if you're willing to lose reset (you could still load firmware over usb). if you redesign, you could pick a different avr and put ios instead of usb. should give you room for quite a lot of contacts22:06
wpwrakif you want anything but bare contacts, just integrate the transceiver into your circuit22:06
wpwrakit's largely copy & paste ;-)22:07
wpwrakthe three "easy" signals are on the round contacts on the right side of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusb-20110131.jpg22:07
wpwrak(there are six contacts. besides the three general-purpose ones, one is ground, one is 3.3V, and one is reset in)22:08
wpwrakthey're spaced 100 mil apart, so you could just solder a header or such22:09
wpwrak(thinking of it, i should migrate to 2 mm headers. that would have saved a bit of space on that board)22:09
kristianpaulkyak: nice w3m with img support :-), wich lib is it?22:32
rjeffrieswpwrak driver on Linux for atUSB is your implementation of 6LoWPAN correct?22:38
rjeffriesis it valid to think about one linux box talking to another linux box (not Ben) over a pair of atUSBs? seels like that would work??22:39
rjeffriesthis little dev board blows my mind22:46
tuxbrain_awayrjeffries: (two atusb) why not?22:53
rjeffriestuxbrain_away unlike you, my friend, I do not syffer from a migrain today. ;)22:53
rjeffrieson a serious note, in the TBD category, wpwrak has yet to disclose how a few atBENs in a conference rool might talk to each other22:55
tuxbrain_awaytouche! I think I will go to bed22:55
rjeffriesit is a multicast type of application22:55
kristianpaulIf is said that the data is 16-bit IQ interleaved23:03
kristianpaulIt means i have a chain of uint16_t I and Q variables23:04
kristianpaulHmm, also i could make a struct but i think i dont want keep mixed the I and Q all time23:04
wpwrakrjeffries: there's no proper driver yet. just some test tools. but yes, there will be a low-level driver for the IEEE 802.15.4 stack and then 6LoWPAN on top23:07
kristianpaulwpwrak: (gold code) you mentiones something about this before, i think osgps project have a portable code about correlating gold codes by the use of a acumulator (dont ask me how now)23:07
wpwrakrjeffries: (linux-to-linux) in what way is the ben different from "another linux box" ? ;-)23:07
kristianpaulBut is the only code seems to compile on a mips(sel) machine and not complaing abotu MMX/SSE or other SIMD23:07
kristianpaulThe bad side, is that have some ASM code for reading a PCI Acquisition Board.23:08
wpwrak kristianpaul seems that there's a lot of ugliness out there ;-)23:08
kristianpaulwell _later_ it can be consider to do a more focused SDR task, on the nanonote23:08
kristianpaulwpwrak: (ugliness), ah you already check this project?23:09
wpwrakrjeffries: (multicast) uh, nobody uses multicast (unless you're a router or working towards a PhD)23:09
kristianpaulImagine that!, last versio run on windows and do real time correlation!23:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: no no, but your description of MMX here, asm there sounds bad :)23:09
kristianpaulthey are usign same chip as me, as a dongle, plus the cypress high speed thing as usrp23:10
rjeffrieswpwrak ok (but Mcast used all the time in Etherent world)23:10
rjeffrieslet me state the problem differently23:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: (asm) ./gp2021.c:26:#   include <asm/io.h>23:11
rjeffriesin a conference situation with say 10 Ben NN freaks in attendace, I assume at a minimu sombody needs23:11
rjeffriesto have a sort of "directory" where one can find address for other Ben atBen users23:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: anyway, just telling you, i think you mentioned something about gold code algorithms the other time, but due my PC shutdown i lost the log :(23:12
rjeffriesmulticats transmission from the directory node would go to all Bens in shouting distance so they know where the directory is located (IP address)23:12
kristianpaulwpwrak: i dont like SIMD, well is nice, but when you have mipsel laptop you realize how non-portable some code is :(23:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: (gold code) yeah, i was wondering how hard it would be to make a state machine that would translate a bit stream into code number and phase (bit position)23:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: (simd) indeed :)23:14
kristianpaulwpwrak: not so hard, as i said i need a book with better algorithms, my current literature just talk about fft and parallel correlation. bla bla..23:14
wpwrakrjeffries: i know what multicast can do ;-) it's just that nobody seriously uses it, except for certain infrastructure services.23:15
kristianpaulah there is a code called fastgps is on SF too, i dont remenber if is SIMD dependand.. i think it is23:15
wpwrakrjeffries: (and tightly integrated niche applications, things like iptv over catv)23:15
kristianpaulha, fastgps i C++ coded now i remenber :D23:17
wpwrakrjeffries: i think what you have in mind is a network with mobile/variable infrastructure. that would  be below IP.23:17
kristianpauland rely on msse2 too23:17
kristianpaulnice combination?23:17
wpwrakrjeffries: this stuff is called "ad hoc" network, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MANET23:17
rjeffriesI come from a networking background. thanks23:18
wpwrakrjeffries: again, still mainly a research topic, although there are some applications, mainly military23:18
wpwrakme too ;-)23:18
rjeffriesthis is so simple23:18
rjeffriesI will ask a different question23:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: seems that they all *really* like their simd instructions :)23:19
rjeffrieshow will two arBens communicate to each other when rere are three or more atBens within the radio range23:19
rjeffriesatBens sorry23:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: maybe intel put some CGGC operation in there (Correlate Gps Gold Code) ;-)23:19
kristianpaulwpwrak: well.. lassy ness? (like simd)23:20
rjeffrieshow deso one atBen find the other atBen23:20
kristianpaulwpwrak: i bet ARM did btw23:20
kristianpaulso roh theority can be proben ;-)23:20
wpwrakrjeffries: typically, they would go via a common server. but that's mainly determined by the application. if you had something that goes peer-to-peer, then you could also use that.23:20
wpwrakrjeffries: but if you consider things like IRC or such, they're all server-oriented23:20
rjeffriesit begs the question, when atBen shios and we have the fist Glbal Ben Conference23:21
wpwrakrjeffries: ;-)23:21
rjeffriesand wpwrak Ben wants to talk to krustianpaul Ben how do you know what to do23:22
rjeffriesI am mot jerking your chain, asking about an obvious early use case23:22
wpwrakrjeffries: i'm readying the prototypes for shipping. now the issue is how to get them to the various recipients. i investigated a bit today but didn't find what i was looking for. to be continued on monday.23:23
wpwrakrjeffries: what does "talk" mean ? ping ? IRC ? ronchat ? email ? skype ?23:24
rjeffriesronchat would work. l)23:24
wpwrakthat one gives you the most freedom in implementation choices ;-)23:24
rjeffriesi watched with amusement as wolfspraul gave you long distance counselling23:25
rjeffriesrf is by it's natyre a broadcast media so I guess the two parties transmit their unique ID (tbd) and tehn  can establish a connection that is semi encrypted23:27
wpwrakyeah. i think i'll actually try regular mail, see how it goes.23:27
wpwrakrjeffries: i don't know yet if 6LoWPAN provides for direct peer to peer communication. probably yes, or if not yet, then it would at least leave the option for it open.23:29
wpwrakrjeffries: right now, there are still much bigger holes to fix, such as proper TCP support23:29
kristianpaulwpwrak: avahi is you friend :-)23:32
kristianpaulor others encarnations of zero conf stuff23:33
wpwrakyeah, some of it is already part of basic IPv6 functionality23:36
kristianpauloh, really?23:39
Action: kristianpaul need to read mroe about ipv6 then23:39
kristianpaulwell ipv4 too23:39
kristianpaulipv6 is just fancy i think23:39
rjeffriesavahi does look interesting kristianpaul23:43
rjeffriesipv6 has longer addresses than V4 and a bunch of otehr stuff. 6LoWpan looks like it will be widely deployed for device networks23:44
kristianpaulrjeffries: http://xkcd.com/865/23:46
kristianpaulperhaps? debian alioth have some benchmarks for lanagues i think, ask in #debian at ofct23:47
rjeffrieskristianpaul great xkcd link! too funny23:48
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