#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-02-16

kristianpaulxiangfu: do we have new image? :-)02:45
kristianpaulxiangfu: morning there02:46
kristianpaul!02:46
xiangfukristianpaul: test version : http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02132011-0750/02:46
xiangfukristianpaul: I am also testing...  :)02:46
kristianpaulgood, i'll do same02:46
xiangfuI will do a fast test. then send email to list. then move them to downloads.qi-hardware.com02:46
kristianpaulkk02:47
kristianpaulIs sdk avalible for 686?..02:48
kristianpaulargg http://paste.debian.net/107781/02:51
xiangfukristianpaul: no. but I can try to build it in my PC. but you need wait at least ~30 hours. build from 0 needs ~30 hours. maybe I not build all packages in my pc. :)02:52
xiangfukristianpaul: the "len 454656 " is not correct.02:53
xiangfuit's should be :"Finish! (len 524288 start_page 0 page_num 128)"02:54
xiangfuare you sure using : http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.full_system-02132011-0750/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin ?02:54
xiangfuboot to usbboot hardware mode , try again.02:55
kristianpaulnp i can build on mine too02:55
kristianpauljust asking just i case ;-)02:55
kristianpauli chenged usb port it works now02:56
xiangfukristianpaul: ok. check the http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image#Configuration. you may want remove the CONFIG_ALL=y :)03:02
xiangfukristianpaul: by the way there are bug when compile openwrt. I put the patch here: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.patches/03:03
xiangfueverytime we update the feeds.conf there are different package not compile :(03:03
kristianpaul:S03:04
wolfspraulxiangfu: did we set CONFIG_ALL=y in config.full_system ?03:07
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes.03:07
wolfspraulI don't think that's a good idea.03:07
wolfspraulthe people that were used to using config.full_system will all (100%) run into this and need manual explanation to remove it.03:07
wolfspraulif you make a change like this, you need a new name03:07
wolfspraulconfig.something_new03:07
wolfspraulotherwise others will fall into the trap (as you see now)03:08
xiangfuno, I will not create another new name.03:08
xiangfuI can add "CONFIG_ALL=y" manually in buildhost.03:08
wolfspraulsure, also works03:08
xiangfuthere only one line different "CONFIG_ALL=y"03:09
wolfspraulmy point is just that by enabling CONFIG_ALL=y, you change the nature/main characteristic of building config.full_system03:09
wolfspraulso other people who are using config.full_system will learn this the hard way03:09
xiangfuok.03:09
wolfspraulnot out of their own choice, at their own timing, but by having their expectation what config.full_system does suddenly broken one day03:09
xiangfuI will remove it. add some comment in config.full_system.03:10
wolfspraulgood thing we only have a few people bulding config.full_system, I think they all already fell into this by now.03:10
wolfspraulif we had more people using it, you would need to communicate with each one of them now :-)03:10
wolfsprauland explain them about CONFIG_ALL and that they have to manually disable it.03:10
xiangfuyes.03:11
xiangfuI enable by thinking. config.full_system is reproduce the buildhost compile :)03:13
xiangfuok I will disable it now. and add some comment.03:13
wolfspraulI understand why you enabled it. but you forgot the consequence for others using config.full_system. the difficulty of communicating this change to them, and the timing of the change for them.03:13
wolfsprauleven though there are only 3-5 people using this, it's hard to communicate the same message to them at the same time.03:14
wolfspraulif there were dozens or hundreds, it would be crazy difficult03:14
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes. now understand03:16
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: disable CONFIG_ALL, add Tile and gottet http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a344fe03:16
kristianpaulCan i just freely set CC=my-gcc just before a ./configure ?03:17
kristianpaulOr how i can really force to not use the CC=gcc already defined on a Makefile..03:18
kristianpaulah ok... prefix=$HOME CC=cc CFLAGS="-O4" ./configure03:21
kristianpauloh my fault ! i need read more about gnu :-)03:23
Action: kristianpaul hate hiden spaces03:23
zrafakristianpaul: well.. you are right, but no all work always. Are you trying to use a toolchain ?03:30
kristianpaulzrafa: yes03:30
zrafaokey.. you could set some vars if the toolchain does not bring some profile03:31
kristianpaulyeah is already documented it seems03:31
kristianpaulzrafa: http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_build_instructions03:31
kristianpaultake a look plese :-)03:31
kristianpaulI think i'll end with a script to automat that, is so annying do it manually for 5th time !!03:32
zrafakristianpaul: okey.. but first.. YOu can set some vars. Like CC, LD, CFLAGS, AS, AR, LDFLAGS, STRIP, OBJDUMP03:32
zrafakristianpaul: and most of the configure(s) will use them03:32
kristianpaulset as?03:32
zrafaexport CC=my-gcc03:33
kristianpaulexport CC=sdsds or CC ./configure --03:33
kristianpaulah !03:33
zrafaexport CFLAGS="-I/my/path/to/include -Os.. etc"03:33
zrafalike that03:33
kristianpaulthat more clean, less typing also :-)03:34
zrafanow let me check those build instructions03:34
zrafakristianpaul: I use often the --host= with configure.. and for example, when I have set the env with the openmoko tooolchain or with jlime toolchain I run configure with : ./configure --host=arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi (for openmoko.. which has all the toolchain binaries named arm-angstrom-linux-gnueabi-*)03:36
zrafakristianpaul: well, the http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flickernoise_build_instructions instructions are clear :)03:37
kristianpaulsure !03:37
zrafait set all the env at the same command line of configure03:37
zrafathat is okey03:37
zrafawhat is wrong?03:37
kristianpaulopenjpeg need to modify Makefile...03:37
kristianpaulwhy??03:37
zrafaI do not know .. you asked "can i just set... bla bla?"03:38
kristianpauljje03:38
kristianpaulyes03:38
kristianpaulthats another question :-)03:38
zrafakristianpaul: if the makefile has harcoded the gcc family binaries and the soft does not provide configure then yes, you will need to modify makefile. You could do it generic03:39
zrafaso it just use CC value03:39
zrafauses03:39
kristianpaulah missing configure, right03:43
kyakbartbes: hey! it's cool. How do i know which games are available? Have you thought about something like nlove-run --list to list available games from the repo?05:53
qi-bot[commit] kyak: supertux: fix some levels using salcon.mod instead of SALCON.MOD http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9cf9d6706:20
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: add supertux, terminus-font http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/846efe806:27
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: build gcc-mips, make, binutils as modules. Remove http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d18c10806:27
kyakxiangfu: do you think it makes sense to remove packages that are built as modules from config.full_system at all? Since you are building CONFIG_ALL, they will be included as modules anyway...06:29
xiangfuyes. sure.06:30
xiangfukyak: by the way. I got an idea that remove the openwrt-xburst.git/files/ to a package.06:31
xiangfumv them to nanonote-file package.06:31
xiangfuthen add small shell script file to /etc/uci-defaults. copy all those overwrite file from like '/usr/lib/nanonote-overwrite/*' to /etc/06:32
xiangfukyak: I mess up the build folder of buildhost. I have to re-build from "0" again. mean needs wait more then 30 hours, I can release a test version of image.06:33
Action: xiangfu feel sorry for so delay for openwrt release. :(06:33
kyakxiangfu: not a problem. A consistent image would be so much better06:40
kyak(also so the people would see #1 compilation count in uname -a, it is an indication that the image was built from the first time and fine)06:41
kyakit also feels kinda funny to see numbers like #32 in jlime :)06:41
kyakthe number shows the level of confidence in make system06:42
qi-bot[commit] kyak: config.full_system: remove "=m" packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/40a69aa06:49
Jay7wow! I'm in top-10 smiles09:04
kyakwhere is your smile at the end? :)09:05
Jay7;)09:15
Jay7and pair for reserve :) :)09:15
Jay7hm.. my friend posted message about openpandora09:57
Jay7(in russian) http://www.hpc.ru/board/viewtopic.php?p=1683414#168341409:58
kyaklooks like your friend is disappointed10:13
Jay7kinda..10:17
Jay7devices with keyboard are unpopular10:17
Jay7because most of users are readers, not writers :)10:17
dvdkxiangfu: still missed brainless in your last patch to config.full_system :'(10:31
kyakdvdk: why won't you add it yourself? ;)10:35
Action: dvdk does not want to inject more bugs :)10:36
kyakthat's called "injecting your packages into rootfs" :)10:37
bartbeskyak: ehm, there's no way yet11:37
bartbesbut once I get some more spare time I will do stuff like that11:37
bartbestogether with versioning11:37
bartbesI can give you the current list though11:38
kyaksure, go ahead11:40
bartbesCartesianCardinalZap11:42
bartbesclock11:42
bartbesEarthDefenders11:42
bartbesnpong11:42
bartbessnake11:42
kyakok, i'll give it a try :)11:43
kyakCartesianCardinalZap - what a name!11:43
bartbesyeah...11:43
zrafakyak: uname # number does not show any level of confidence in make system. It is just from kernel IIRC (and it is not built with rootfs). And in fact, it shows our work with kernel 2.6.34, adding new features and removing uneeded12:53
zrafakyak: building kernel always works if compiler is a good one for kernel and your config is okey12:54
kyakzrafa: bigger # show how many times the kernel has been built without running make clean. If you trust your make system, feel free to us old object files. I prefer (and it is generally accepted - have a look it linux distros around) to know that my kernel..12:56
kyak..was built from scratch, thus leaving no chance for odl lefovers12:56
zrafakyak: yeah, sure. But it is not wrong when you are just adding and removing features. The idea was showing kristoffer all the features added/removed until he thinks it is fine12:58
zrafait is make, it knows a bit what to do12:59
kyakyeah, i just wondering why it is such a problem to build the release image of jlime from scratch13:01
kyakjust like xiangfy is doing now for openwrt13:02
zrafakyak: about distros and kernel: yeah, you are right. But it is not a distro from scratch (if you are talking about betas).. It is a work which shows features to discuss. If you want to build jlime from scratch use OE, B_Lizzard is doing some work with preview release there. Maybe you like that, we give you that13:03
zrafakyak: no a lot of advertising about that here because that is not a proper distro for qi, very log discussed already13:04
kyakbtw, i've seen one of the images of B_Lizzard, it's pretty good13:04
B_LizzardThanks, kyak13:04
kyakthe setup wizard is a nice idea13:04
B_LizzardI think I'll start over right this time13:05
B_LizzardWith EFL13:05
zrafaB_Lizzard: it was showed on fosdem13:05
zrafaB_Lizzard: EFL will not like you on nn :(13:05
B_Lizzardzrafa, I know, I made an image for tuxbrain with quake etc13:05
B_LizzardWhy not?13:05
zrafaB_Lizzard: it uses 32bbp internally IIRC, and nn just hast 16bbp mode. Maybe I am wrong, I should check nn features13:06
zrafabut if that is like I remember then every time EFL wants to show something it will take time translating 32 -> 1613:06
kyakeh, what EFL?13:06
kyak*what is13:06
zrafakyak: Enlightenment Foundation Libraries13:07
zrafaB_Lizzard: but well, for simple widgets it should be nice anyway.. And no a lot of time lost (we will not write games with that :P )13:08
kyakah, ok.. that reminds we about efforts of bartbes to build e17 for usage without X13:09
B_Lizzardzrafa, otherwise we should try making our own widget set13:09
B_LizzardOr porting SDL-Widgets to C13:09
zrafakyak: how was that bartbes work?13:09
kyakbartbes: btw, did you have any luck building e17?13:09
kyakhm, i think i remembered correctly.. now i'm not sure :)13:10
zrafakyak: the libraries works on fb+sdl, but no sure if the WM13:10
zrafakyak: I remember I built for him e17. It is on extra packages.13:10
zrafakyak: but no remember him building it himself13:10
kyakzrafa: oh, ok.. So the WM is not going to work without X, right?13:11
zrafaB_Lizzard: I did a little wrapper for SDL-Widgets for just a button. No nice :( It works, but it takes work. The developer is not interested, and also I started to add some way to press buttons with keyboard. ANd the developer did not like the idea :P13:11
zrafaB_Lizzard: he said that if we are going to do that (adding qwerty support to SDL-widgets) he will not accept those features and we will need to fork .. He was happy it seems :)13:12
B_LizzardAs I said, either from scratch or remake it in C13:12
zrafakyak: I think so, but no sure13:12
B_LizzardThis should take work13:12
kyakzrafa: do i understand corretly that you are trying to build some WM using EFL on top of fb/SDL?13:13
B_LizzardEFL is promising, it has Samsung's backing, and it recently reached version 1.013:13
B_LizzardWell, the base EFL libraries, anyways.13:13
zrafakyak: no. I just built the EFL and e17. No more. I tried to start the wm on X. Black screen appeared like if it is working. Because there are not shortcuts.. I could not do anything (I would need to press right mouse button to find some menu for example). After that13:15
zrafaI stoped trying. I just uploaded the packages because maybe somebody would like to try some E17 application, which should work.13:15
zrafa(or write an application using efl)13:15
zrafaB_Lizzard: yeah, we could write that in C and sdl. And we need qwerty support :P13:17
B_Lizzardzrafa, you are the expert here13:18
B_LizzardI basically need some way of making applications with a modern widget set13:18
B_LizzardI cannot continue making Muffinman without applications13:18
B_LizzardI am going to address tuxbrain's various issues13:19
B_LizzardBut really, my main problem is the lack of applications13:19
zrafaB_Lizzard: expert: no much, just theory. We can start using sdl-widgets as start point as you suggested. And write a few widgets. It could be useful for qi-openwrt as well because we are going to use sdl.13:19
B_LizzardThe SDL-Widgets source code is a mess13:20
wpwrakzrafa: do there's a new release of jlime coming ? btw, i don't see a reason why we couldn't discuss jlime (in the context of the nanonote) here13:20
B_LizzardI wonder how you can find your way through that mess13:20
B_Lizzardwpwrak, the latest release from me is available on the website13:20
B_LizzardCheck the front page for that blog post13:21
zrafawpwrak: B_Lizzard is doing the proper work with muffinman on OE (and kristoffer is pushing the patches, he has the power). No idea when I will try to do something for a muffinman useful for qi. I mean, qi community would need some way to build the OE jlime without the already patented problem discussed. Who will do that work? (on OE I mean)13:22
B_Lizzardzrafa, if it wasn't for EFL and Elementary I wouldn't think of it twice, but it seems a bit useless13:23
zrafaB_Lizzard: sdl-widgets.. yes. I read it. It is not big thought, and it is simple (still if it is a mess).13:23
B_LizzardIf you think we can work something up quickly (in months), we could sure do that13:24
B_LizzardI'd be interested in making a shell-script bindings13:24
B_Lizzard-a13:24
kyakzrafa: i thought you resolved patented issues and OE was capable of making the "clean" rootfs by using some flags (as seen in mplayer's recipy, for instance)13:24
zrafawpwrak: so.. yes, muffinman has had a lot of work last weeks (thanks B_Lizzard for that). Just we did not say much here.13:24
zrafakyak: no. I just did a jlime version without patented technologis for qi servers.13:25
zrafaB_Lizzard: ah.. like zenity?13:26
B_LizzardUgh, no13:26
zrafaB_Lizzard: more like what?13:26
kyakwhat's the problem to make the clean version again? it doesn't require any manual work, just set the flag?13:26
wpwrakzrafa: i think the "build fill distro, then remove the offending stuff before uploading" approach would be quite acceptable13:26
B_LizzardWell, a bit more powerful13:27
B_LizzardI guess13:27
B_Lizzardzenity doesn't let you play with widgets13:27
zrafaB_Lizzard: yea, but the idea I mean. SOmething useful to use with scripts right?13:27
B_LizzardYeah, but more powerful for full applications and whatnot13:28
wpwrakB_Lizzard: (front page) nice !13:28
zrafakyak: no sure. I do not know OE (internally). Which flag you mean?13:28
wpwrakkyak: i think the issue is that there is no such flag in OE :)13:28
B_LizzardYes, yes, you can have OE build you stuff sans patented technologies by setting a variable13:28
wpwrakB_Lizzard: oh, great ! so the problem has already been solved ?13:29
zrafawpwrak: ("build fill distro, then remove the offending stuff before uploading) yeah, but the rootfs built from OE is hard to modify. The repository would be okey13:29
B_LizzardENTERPRISE_DISTRO13:29
kyakzrafa: well, if you have a look here : http://cgit.openembedded.org/cgit.cgi/openembedded/tree/recipes/mplayer/mplayer_0.0+1.0rc2.bb, you'll see the ENTERPRISE_DISTRO flag13:29
B_LizzardWell, I don't set that but I guess yes.13:29
kyakso building a clean image is just the matter of unsetting this flag13:29
B_LizzardNot really13:30
kyakjust like BUILD_PATENDED in openwrt13:30
zrafakyak: B_Lizzard: have you tried that? (flag). I remember now others talking about that flag. It did not work for others when they discussed that13:30
B_LizzardI still ship GMU and mpg123 and whatnot13:30
zrafaB_Lizzard: FLAG=PATENTED_STUFF_ONLY13:31
kyakopenwrt ships gmu, too. Just exclude mp3 support for clean image13:31
zrafaB_Lizzard: then build :)13:31
wpwrakkyak: i think ENTERPRISE_DISTRO works the other way: set it and the nasty things disappear13:31
kyakwpwrak: whatever.. :)13:31
wpwrakzrafa: (root image) well, one could just adopt the myroot approach for making the rootfs image anyway. that would make it more sane anyway. away with all the heathen rituals surrounding these rootfs images ! :)13:33
kyakzrafa: i'm not really into patents and stuff, but aren't you afraid to host "unclean" images on your server? Is it legal? If it is legal, why qi is not doing that?13:33
zrafaB_Lizzard:  build_repo.sh :  for i in all_packages ; do   package_has_patented_stuff j && build j   ; done13:34
B_LizzardSo, zrafa, what do you think?13:34
wpwrakkyak: jlime doesn't sell hardware13:34
kyakwpwrak: so it is only prohibited for companies who sell hardware?13:34
zrafakyak: it is legal if you do not sell hardware with that13:34
B_LizzardI don't think Sweden respects software patents.13:34
zrafawpwrak: yeah, my root would be the best. I agree13:35
wpwrakkyak: well ... let's say that you're much less likely to get into trouble with software13:35
kyakqi could ship "free" versions of openwrt and suggest "non-free" version for re-flasinh. Would it be legal?13:35
zrafawpwrak: and like I have said before, I do not like openwrt or OE or whatever for building rootfs :)13:35
wpwrakkyak: with hardware, we know that you get attacked if you do that13:35
kyakwpwrak: ok, i see13:35
wpwrakkyak: qi can't officially "suggest". that would still be considered infringement13:36
zrafakyak: all is okey. But qi could be sue by others if that patented stuff is on qi servers or links from qi servers13:36
wpwrakkyak: you'd basically advertize the capability13:36
zrafakyak: still if qi does not sell the hardware with the problem inside13:36
zrafaB_Lizzard: Sweden does not respect anything13:37
kyakthey could say that the "official software image" page on qi-s wiki links to jlime. And jlime offeres patented stuff. Then jlime will have problems13:37
B_LizzardUm, I don't think it has to do with selling hardware or not13:37
B_LizzardNor is Qi responsible is someone downloads an mp3 codec when he hasn't payed the license cost13:38
B_LizzardWell, wherever that applies.13:38
wpwrakkyak: (link to jlime) most likely, qi would have a problem, because it would be advertized as "official"13:39
zrafakyak: jlime does not sell hardware, so jlime is okey.13:40
wpwrakkyak: opions differ in whether a "non-advertizing" link would also be an issue. wolfgang thinks it would.13:40
zrafakyak: I mean, jlime will not have problems for the patented stuff. Just the people selling hardware will have.13:40
kyakwpwrak: it's there on wiki.. http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Official_Software_Image13:41
zrafakyak: so if you do, let me put some jlime link on your web site if you would like to check out if that is true or not :D13:41
kyakzrafa: Russia is just like Sweden :)13:41
zrafakyak: no13:41
zrafakyak: the link on http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Official_Software_Image13:42
zrafadoes not point to jlime.com13:42
zrafakyak: so that link is okey13:42
wpwrakzrafa: jlime could probably still get problems. e.g., they could try to get the server shut down. or go after any participants in countries where they can make the patents stick. (note that also the EU is partially allowing sw patenta)13:42
kyakzrafa: hm, yeah, it's pointing to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Jlime which in turn points to jlime.com!13:43
zrafawpwrak: yeah, but that is another issue. The people doing sues want money13:43
wpwrakzrafa: but it would a) cost more than what they could wring out of you guys, b) may look bad, c) you're not visible enough to really matter.13:43
zrafakyak: yes?13:43
zrafaare you sure? I did not add that13:43
wpwrakzrafa: change jlime to ubuntu or fedora and the story may be very different13:43
kyakyeah, i'm reading now13:43
zrafakyak: the first link. Right. Let me fix. That is not the idea. It is supposly dont having links13:44
wpwrakkyak: ("official" link) heh ;-) i'll leave this to wolfgang to sort out. in my opinion, a mere reference ought to be fine13:44
kyakwell, teechnically speaking, just mentioning "jlime" in qi-'s wiki then would lead to problems13:45
kyakbecause a customer can google for jlime13:45
wpwrakzrafa: (people suing want money) sometimes, they just sue you even if you have no money, to intimidate others13:45
zrafakyak: fixed. great13:45
wpwrakkyak: wolfgang says that google is enough of a barrier13:45
kyakall right! it looks for me, that it is both super hard and super easy to sue someone for patenting issues..13:46
wpwrakkyak: there are no clear legal rules in all this. the question is simply at what level of provocation you'd expect the other side to leash out13:46
kyakit's a very complicated question :)13:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: I guess it's patent day again. I am proposing a slight semantic clarification.13:47
zrafawpwrak: well, I will try to upload all the stuff as anonymous, using a proxy, and asking to my sister to do that. So I do not get in troubles ;)13:47
wpwrakkyak: you can sue anyone at any time13:47
wolfspraul'software patent' means that a patent infringement claim can be made against a software vendor13:47
wpwrakkyak: even if you have nothing, you can make this very costly for them13:47
kristianpaulplop13:47
kyakwpwrak: sue and wine, i mean13:48
kyak*win13:48
wolfspraul'software patent' does not mean that a non-software patent is not covering software. in any of the big patent jurisdictions, you can bring forward a 'software patent' infringement claim against a hardware vendor. what is patented is the implementation (which has to be a physical machine)13:48
wpwrakkyak: define "victory" :-) get a judge rule in your favour ? or are yuo happy enough if you've destroyed your opponent ?13:48
wolfspraulthe discussion about 'software patents' is largely misleading (and in favor of patent owners who can calm down some people)13:49
wpwrakkyak: note that a lot of cases don't finish - people settle out of court13:49
wolfspraul'software patents' would never be a thread to pure free software anyway, because even if the patent applies, you cannot expect to squeeze much money out of people who have no money and are not making money with software.13:49
wolfspraulthreat13:49
wolfspraulthe point of 'software patents' is to be able to tax software vendors, the largest are in the US, so that's all fine13:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: (no threat to free sw) except if it's "pour encouranger les autres"13:50
wolfspraulextending true 'software patents' to the EU would yield negligible additional revenue for the patent owners13:50
wolfspraulmp3 patents are 'software patents' of course, they describe an algorithm/program13:50
kyakwolfspraul: it is not completely correct that there is nothing to take from free software. Free sftware is stealing their clients13:51
wolfspraulbut in the EU the infringement can only be brought forward if you sell a physical machine13:51
wolfspraulwhich is where the money is anyway. look at the money and you understand why the patent owners don't need software patents in the EU :-)13:51
wolfspraul'software patent' = patent that allows an infringement claim against Microsoft13:52
wolfspraulI rest my case. :-)13:52
wpwrak;-)13:52
kyakwolfspraul: do you have an idea how much it would cost to include the mp3 support, for exmaple?13:53
kyaki mean, legally13:53
wolfspraulthe biggest cost would come in the exclusion of others, submitting oneself to a bad system, breaking the idea of copyleft13:54
wolfspraulif you have to have this patent license, you need to make a down-payment of a 6-figure USD amount into an escrow account (as a protection in case you go bankrupt).13:55
wolfspraulthen you need to pay per device, the amount is somewhere between a few cents and a few USD13:55
wolfspraulthey also tie you into strict NDAs so you cannot talk about any of your specific arrangements13:56
wolfspraulI'm sure people get grossly different deals in this system :-)13:56
wolfspraulthat's why there is this idea of a 'patent flat tax', which of course the patent owners fight as hard as they can.13:56
zrafakyak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Jlime&diff=17468&oldid=16858  : Some "Janvlug" guy added13:57
kyakbut everyone has to do that sooner or later? look at all major linux vendors13:57
wolfspraula patent owner is not obliged to license the patent under the same terms to everybody13:57
wolfspraulkyak: absolutely not.13:57
zrafakyak: that link to jlime.com. I guess that it is a little hard to keep the wiki pages without links13:57
wolfsprauleverybody has to wait another 4-7 years until this taxing scheme is over.13:57
zrafakyak: no idea how somebody at qi would suggest to track that13:57
kyakzrafa: "Janvlug", what a backstubber ;)13:57
wolfspraul80% of the world population are not affected anyway, so we are only talking about the other 20%13:57
zrafakyak: hehe :)13:58
urandom__paying a criminal organisation money is immoral13:58
kyakwolfspraul: 4-7 years? Do you mean that you only have to pay for 4-7 years?13:58
kyakor maybe you are saying that Free Software will take over the world in 4-7 years? :)14:00
kyakdefinitely mp3 will become patent-free in 70 years...14:01
wpwrakkyak: i think you're confusing patents and copyright here :)14:01
kyaki surely confuse a lot, because i'm not into the subject14:02
urandom__in 70 year there might be no intellectual property at all, at least i hope so14:03
kyakof course! no humans - no intellectual property -)14:03
urandom__nah i hope humans figure out that the whole intellectual property concept ist totally bullshit14:05
urandom__though i fear 70 years arent that realistic, sadly14:05
wolfspraulkyak: mp3 will become patent free in a few years14:06
urandom__patent rights and copyright might have had some use in the past but now they just do harm mainly14:07
wolfspraulcopyright is even longer than that - it's 70 years after the death of the author14:07
wolfsprauland in some cases even more, like 90, 100 years after death of author14:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: copyright is as long as disney sees fit :)14:13
bartbeskyak, zrafa: I successfully built the EFL for nn14:38
bartbese17 however, needs X14:38
bartbesthough I don't know if you guys have heard of OPIE?14:39
kyakso what use is EFL without e17?14:39
bartbesit's like gtk14:40
bartbes"so what use is Gtk without Gnome?"14:40
bartbessame answer14:40
kyakok, so one can write gui applications using EFL14:40
bartbesyes14:40
kyakis it using linux framebuffer directly?14:40
bartbesit can use several backends, including directfb and fbdev14:41
kyakok, sounds intersting14:41
kyakare there many usable apps utilizing EFL?14:41
bartbesI suppose just about all apps written for e17 but not directly part of e17 itself14:42
bartbesin fact, since in e17 just about everything is an edje file14:43
bartbesyou could even 'run' a wallpaper14:43
bartbes:P14:43
kyaki think it would be really great to replace gmenu2x some day14:43
bartbesor at least drastically rework it14:44
bartbeswhich is why I thought OPIE is interesting14:44
bartbesthat and the fact that it's qt based afaik14:44
kyakit means "rewrite" it.. because as fasr as i know it was already heavily reworked14:44
bartbesand since qt runs on the nn already14:44
kyaknever heard of OPIE14:44
bartbeswikipedia links ftw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPIE_user_interface14:45
kyakhm it says jlime is using opie14:46
kyakwhen i think about how many interfaces are avaialble without X, i don't even understand why X still exists :) sdl/qt4/gtk/svga/efl... what else14:47
bartbesheh14:48
bartbesbecause of multiple clients14:48
bartbesI don't know if you've noticed, but there can only be one app using the framebuffer at any given time14:48
bartbeswhich is the reason why gmenu2x closes, runs its app, then restarts14:49
kyakhm, i'm not sure.. there could be /dev/fbX14:49
kyakthen several apps could be run?14:49
bartbespossibly.. but in any case not in the same window14:49
kyakgmenu2x is closed for memory saving reasons :)14:49
bartbesi.e. a window manager won't really work14:49
bartbesnot just that14:49
bartbesas long as it's open no other framebuffer app can run14:50
kyakhttp://home.comcast.net/~fbui/14:52
kyaki'm sure there are others14:52
kyakframebuffer window managers14:52
kyakgtg now14:52
bartbeskyak: that looks very nice, but doesn't it need programs to support it?14:55
zrafait should be part of qi, because it is the drink of programmers : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_%28drink%2915:21
zrafabartbes: we used opien long time ago in jlime, but no now. It is good if you just use it and only that15:23
zrafakyak: EFL is the only good library for embedded devices around, but it needs power and modern devices (for modern I mean most of current closed mobile phones and things like that)15:25
urandom__wow that fbui indeed looks nice, seems like it is not developed actively anymore but the idea is very great15:32
wpwrakzrafa: hmm, no opencola light ? :(15:56
zrafawpwrak: remove sugar :P15:57
wpwrakeek16:02
Action: rjeffries smiles17:02
kristianpaulrjeffries: If you can hookup a SPI like ethernet card to the nanonote you have your tiny freedombox17:12
kristianpaulIs easy i think, as linux already have drivers for then..17:12
kristianpaulActually i want to do it, may be with the basic ethernet module jeelabs sell17:13
rjeffriesmaybe wpwrak will design an ethernet 8:10 card. but would it need it;s own power supply?17:14
kristianpaulor a custom desig if you want be fancy, but not for me now17:14
kristianpauldont think other people will, just do it or buy it :-)17:14
kristianpaulpower suply, easy part it just get that from the nanonote17:15
rjeffrieskristianpaul17:15
rjeffriesunderstood17:15
zrafakristianpaul: http://hacknmod.com/hack/add-internet-to-your-arduino-on-the-same-circuit-board/ something like that?17:15
kristianpaulfood17:15
kristianpauli need go lunch soon :-)17:16
kristianpaulrjeffries: but hey man, it is posible !!!17:16
kristianpaulI like freedombox idea more if you can power it with a nanonote, why not...17:16
kristianpaulany wway..17:16
zrafakristianpaul: I do not know anything about, so I am asking like a pre newbie, without any knowledge about17:16
rjeffriesafter spending time with Ben, my thought veer toward how practical it might be for somone other than sharism to do a derivative17:16
rjeffriesthat does NOt use the current case. "Tiny" is not high on my desired funcy=tionality list17:17
rjeffriesthen the question becomes, is that investment a better idea that using some other mass produced gadget17:18
kristianpaulzrafa: yes that chip, (microchip one) i have one, also the ethernet connector and oscilator, just lack  skills to design the PCB..17:18
rjeffriesmaybe one of the 5,000 cheap tablets...17:18
kristianpaulbut may be that could be my hello world i kicad :')17:18
kristianpauls/i/in17:18
rjeffrieskristianpaul I do not have EE myself. I know people who could hack out a little ethernet addon17:19
rjeffriesin their sleep.17:19
dvdkkyak: bartbes: what about nano-x http://www.microwindows.org/; they even have libx11 compatability wrappers (but NO x-server)17:19
rjeffriescould use UBB at first to connect to say a JeeLabs module, yes indeed17:19
rjeffriesthere is a global market demand for UBB that approaches maybe... 75 UBB boards17:20
rjeffriesI will soon be shopping for a private islam]nd with all the profits17:20
kristianpaulrjeffries: i'm not EE either but people can read, think, do, and learn those days easilly :-)17:22
kristianpaulrjeffries: sure UBB will help a lot17:23
bartbesdvdk: you are free to port it, you know17:23
kristianpaulrjeffries: you aalready made it, right ? :D17:23
bartbes:P17:23
kristianpaulport !17:23
kristianpaul:)17:23
rjeffrieskristianpaul I like how you think actually I am sure I could copy amd paste a first design, then have expert clean it up. no problemo. but is that where I wish to invest my time?17:24
bartbesalso17:24
bartbes"Window management is not included, and the window look and feel must be created through a widget set or directly by the applications programmer."17:24
bartbesand "There is some discussion about converting the Nano-X API to be X Window System compatible."17:24
rjeffrieskristianpaul No, I have an almost final PCB fab spec, should be done in a day or so. then send a few docments to a PCB fab expert and ask for quotes17:25
rjeffriestuxbrain is far ahead of me. my effort is prolly at best a crosscheck to see how USA prices compare with EU prices17:25
rjeffrieswe know that China would be cheap, but volume of UBB demand does not warrnet going to China17:26
kristianpaulcome on !, you dont China for a UBB17:27
kristianpaulor you said 10000 UBB ?17:27
kristianpaulunits*17:27
kristianpaul:D17:27
rjeffriesdata point re Ben: plugged it into a Vista laptop. Windows asks for a driver disk for "Ethernet Gadget"17:27
zrafabartbes: dvdk : why somebody would like to use something X Window System compatible without using X?17:27
bartbesI just told him it isn't compatible :P17:28
rjeffriesat some point being able to attache Ben to windows would be A Good Idea. easy way to move files back and forth17:28
wpwrakkristianpaul: i think the main issue with china is that you don't have a previous contact. shipping can be relatively inexpensive.17:28
rjeffrieswpwrak the people I use do LOTS of stuff in chana, and shipping is no big deal17:29
wpwrakrjeffries: alright, then you have a choice there17:29
rjeffriesFor say 1,000 UBBs it may or may nor make sense that China fab wins17:29
rjeffriesI don't care where PCBs are fabbed17:29
kyakdvdk: oh, it even has "Nano" in name17:29
wpwrakrjeffries: yup. contrary to popular belief, there is R&D in china - and they also need small prototype quantities :)17:30
rjeffriesby the way the consuktant (from a medium size and sucessful telecom company) suggested we request a small "first artcle" rin to check design17:31
rjeffriesI think for UBB they would run 1,000 or 500, set them aside, ship us say qty 10 to cehck17:31
rjeffrieshigh probability it is ok, if yes they ship rest17:32
rjeffriesif no they adjuuts process and re-run17:32
dvdkzrafa: nanoX has an efficient native interface without libX1117:33
dvdkzrafa: it just supports libX11 wrapper for easier porting of old apps17:33
rjeffriesdoes anybody have a thought on what it would take so Ben can be seen as a disk by Windows? That must be available17:33
dvdkzrafa: or do you want to rewrite any gui capable s/w you like?  i think the Tk gui of Tcl runs on nano-x's libx1117:34
rjeffrieswolfspraul using Ben attached to Windows is not a crazy idea. please comment17:34
rjeffriesdvdl Tk gui for TCL would be very desirable on Ben. especially in context of Ben as mnaster node for JeeLabs stuff17:35
rjeffrieshe uses Tcl a LOT17:35
dvdkwho is he?17:35
bartbesdvdk: yeah I think tk can do that17:35
kristianpauldvdk: jeelabs founder or master developert i think17:41
dvdkkristianpaul: what is  jeelabs?17:47
Action: dvdk googles17:47
wpwrakrjeffries: (sample) maybe. would depend on what the fab house charges.17:48
wpwrakrjeffries: (windows) since you seem to care about windows, that sounds like a nice development project for you :)17:49
rjeffrieswpwrak I am not a developer. if only developers are welcome here I have come to the wrong place17:51
rjeffriesI doubt very much this requires a new driver.17:52
kyaka small introduction about connecting Ben to Windows used to be here: http://www.nanohacks.org/groups/nanohackers/forum/topic/ben-nanonote-ethernet-over-usb-in-windows/17:52
kyaknow it's gone -\17:52
wpwrakrjeffries: ah, and what prevent you from becoming a developer ? :)17:52
rjeffriesthat has to have been done N times, so many personal nav devices use linux but attache to Windows. TomTom is17:53
rjeffrieswpwrak I am not at anywhere near the competence of others developers, and I spend my time in other wasy.17:53
kyakto tell the truth, nobody cares about Windows17:53
wpwrakkyak: did you delete it just not so that ron won't find it ? ;-))17:53
kyakand i seriously doubt someone using Windows will be even remotely intersted in Ben17:54
rjeffrieskyak so nobody HERE cares about windows. Understood17:54
rjeffrieskyak you think wrong in my opinon17:54
rjeffriessomeone who has a nice big lappie might enjoy a $99 fill linux Ben that he can tarnsfer files back and forth17:54
kyakyou use flash drive for that17:55
rjeffriesif you only target True Belivers..., well what argue17:55
rjeffrieskyak thank you for telling me why I do not want a Nanonote to attach as a USB gadet to windows.17:55
kyakwpwrak: the nebajoth guy used to maintain nanohacks.org.. dunno where he is now :)17:56
kristianpaulnice17:57
kyakrjeffries: hey, don't take it personally.. i'm just trying to say that hardly someone worked into that direction17:57
rjeffriesdvdk JeeLabs is an interesting outfit, cgeck it out. Very smart guy, TOTALLY oen17:57
rjeffrieskyak there must be two DOZEN linux small devces that talk to Windows.17:58
rjeffriesthis is likely a solved problem.17:58
kyakrjeffries: and there are ten DOZEN of devices who don't know a damn thing about linux17:58
kyakso let's jsut say that Ben is maintaining this equillibrium :)17:59
kristianpaulkyak: linux version shipped with nanonote is?..17:59
kristianpaulah nv18:01
kyakhttp://www.arhlabs.es/blog/?p=50 hmm, someone was able to use a Linux virtual machine to connect with Ben from windows18:01
kyakrjeffries: a hint: you will need to download this driver here: http://www.thesycon.de/eng/usb_cdcecm.shtml to be able to talk to Ben from windows18:02
kyakunfortunately, it only works 4 hours in a row. THen you need to reboot your PC18:03
kyakunless you pay for it, of course18:03
kyakrndis support is disabled, since it's not working anyway. .So ben will be detected as cdc/ecm usb device (if you have the appropriate driver)18:04
kyakbasically, the same was written in the article i mentioned18:04
kyakonyl at that time it was necessary to patch the kernel to disable that rndis18:05
Jay7hm.. another toolking discussion here18:05
kyakthen you can use any scp client (winscp?) to copy files between Ben and PC18:05
Jay7opie is fine for low-memory devices18:06
Jay7but dead18:06
Jay7efl is good but need more apps18:06
Jay7and own graphics server instead of X18:07
bartbesrjeffries: actually18:15
bartbesthere was a driver18:15
bartbesit's in there too18:15
bartbesdon't remember the name, but in theory all you need is a kernel recompile18:16
kyakthe name's cdc/ecm and no need to recompile the kernel :)18:17
wpwraki vaguely remember that what one needed was some INF file for windows that would tell it that this thing that identifies itself as a cnc net device need the - surprise, surprise - cnc net driver.18:18
wpwrakor at least that's what one source said :)18:19
bartbeskyak: a mass storage driver, not usb networking18:19
kyakah, that18:19
kristianpaulzrafa: are you interested in having a nanonote with ethernet port?18:25
rjeffrieskyak yes mass storage is all easy peasy lemon squeezy18:25
bartbesoh btw18:29
bartbesI found a use case18:29
bartbes;)18:29
bartbesI use a website to study for tests18:29
bartbesit's specifically for learning languages18:29
bartbesyou enter some vocabulary and it starts testing you18:30
bartbeswell, I found an easy export format, wrote a small lua script18:30
bartbesand now I can practice on my ben18:30
wpwrakbartbes: great !18:32
urandom__oh i was thinking about using ben for learning vocabs myself but always forgot about it18:32
urandom__what website do you use, bartbes?18:33
bartbesit's a dutch website18:33
bartbesthe file format was "Backpack" though18:33
urandom__i use Parley for learning vocabs mostly18:35
bartbesI doubt it's of any use to non-dutch speakers18:35
bartbeslink?18:35
bartbesoh, it's a kde thing?18:35
urandom__yeah18:36
bartbesewwww xml18:36
urandom__i used to be a kde guy before kde 4 got released, sad story18:36
bartbesI should get back to studying..18:36
bartbesthere has to be an easy format just about everything supports though18:37
bartbesthat "backpack" format was \r-seperated entries18:37
bartbesand then18:37
bartbesfrom18:37
bartbes*from\tto18:37
bartbesso it was like:18:37
bartbesfrom1\tto1\rfrom2\tto218:37
bartbeswhich is.. extremely easy to parse18:37
wpwrakas long as you don't lose count :)18:39
urandom__well some additional information could be usefull, like how often you trained the word and so on18:39
bartbesurandom__: sure, but anything is better than nothing18:41
rjeffrieskyak thanks for the driver URL I have downloaded it. need to sort out the manual instal procedure. THANKS18:43
urandom__i wonder if there is some good simple file format fo vocabulary18:44
bartbescsv would work18:44
rjeffrieswpwrak guess what? the Been on my desk tips backwards it will not sit up straight. Imagine that!18:45
xMffcsv can be a pita w.r.t. escaping separators18:46
urandom__bartbes yeah csv should be relative simple und good enough18:46
bartbesit's like one of the easiest to handle file formats18:47
urandom__so time to roll my own vocabulary app18:49
bartbesoh18:52
bartbesand *please* support multiple answers18:52
bartbesit sucks having to type them all18:52
kyakxiangfu: are you there?19:00
kyakxiangfu: what do you think about kicking out fbgs and ghostscript from rootfs and build them as packages? nupdf is much better than "poor man's" fbgs and ghostscript was only ported, to tell the truth, as a dependency of fbgs.19:03
zrafakristianpaul: no idea. Maybe that is a good thing to have. BUt I am sure that I can not do that :)21:33
tuxbraindear channel I'm proud to annouce UBB are on the go, the order has been placed and payed, soon I will post a mail on the list with the preorder conditions with more details and surelly if you bough a NN to me I will annoy you also by mail, on the preorders will be just the following options 10x 30¬  50x 80¬  100x 120¬ 500x 500¬, (taxes and shipping not included) . I will ask tomorrow morning to a more accurated delivery date but expect two we23:17
tuxbraineks from now to be finished. and start shipping.23:17
Jay7tuxbrain: do you need any special case for NN + UBB? ;)23:18
tuxbrainwpwrak: your creature only two weeks far to see hit the real world23:19
tuxbraincase?23:19
Jay7yes, crocheted case :)23:19
tuxbrainheheheeheh23:19
Jay7;)23:20
tuxbrainit depents on what people will attach to that UBB, but mmm what case with leds controled by NN though UBB? :)23:21
wpwraktuxbrain: wheee !! 1st of march will mark the beginning of world control :)23:21
tuxbrainworld control though SDIO :P23:21
Jay7world control interface :)23:21
wpwrakyeah ! ;-)23:23
wpwraktuxbrain: through 8:10 bit-banging :)23:23
Jay7btw23:26
Jay7now user may control audio playback via UBB23:26
tuxbrainoh dammit is true 8:10 8:10 8:10 (one day in one place we must explain WTF is 8:10) I know, but rest of the world outside this channel (I not include the list) doens't know about it and why. they will look at the 8:10 hole and will think to himself... but this is a fu%ing "microesedé"(or in english microesdee)23:28
Jay7hehe23:28
Action: Jay7 is23:28
tuxbrainJay7 yeah! and play/pause their empeethree.... ouch again! :P23:29
Jay7tuxbrain: that is idea, yes :)23:30
Jay7prev, play/pause, stop, ff23:30
Jay7we may create some kind of wired hands-free with 8:10 + 3" jack at one side and 3" female jack at other23:33
Jay7and with buttons + microphone inbetween :)23:34
tuxbrainwell dudes time to some sleep,  tomorrow is some spam to do, btw I was thinking maybe I will add to the preorder if people send me a link with a post on blog, identica, tweet or facebook or even a clasic html page with a date higher than the UBB announcement , with a pic with  NN doing a funny thing I will discount 5 eur on the UBB , what do you think.... I will read anwer tomorrow morning. see you23:37
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (8:10 card explanation) already done :) http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-January/006908.html23:43
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