#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-02-10

wolfspraulnot sure people here saw it - mirko posted a nice hoperf on ben article http://nanl.de/blog/2011/02/ben-nanonote-able-to-control-radio-power-sockets/00:56
wolfspraulleft too soon :-)01:06
tuxbrainnext new releases will have cute entries :)01:14
tuxbrainmirko's rf, Jay7 wife's cases, werner's ubb, fosdem pics ,kristianpaul's MM lua port and sure I'm missing something01:17
tuxbrainmirko did you have any other rf source to comm with NN?, a video demo of it working will be awesome to have :)01:19
wolfspraultuxbrain: can you add a few of those things are notes to the news page?01:22
wolfspraulI'll do it too but I have trouble keeping up with everything sometimes...01:23
tuxbrainYa with rfm12 and 6lowpan the new rf standard instead of Bluetooth an wifi :)01:23
tuxbrainok wolf I will01:23
wolfspraulno need for prettyprinting, just drop a note01:24
wolfspraulJay7: the work of your wife is truly amazing! also congrats from me! Can you or your wife license this under cc-by so I can upload the pics into the qi wiki?01:24
wolfspraulif you just say 'that's ok' in this channel, that's perfectly fine...01:25
wolfspraultuxbrain: did you see the case group hug?01:26
tuxbrainyep, I would love see Jane and Jay7's wife working toguether on this, huge potential dude01:30
tuxbrainJay7: how many time takes to your wife do one of this marvells?01:32
wolfspraultuxbrain: did you say you want to have a cnc machine do the crocheting?01:33
wolfsprauldid I understand you correctly there?01:34
tuxbrainthat would be awesome :)01:34
wolfspraulha! :-) hilarious01:34
wolfspraulI think it would be very very hard, but hey, anything is possible. Don't underestimate the human hand...01:34
tuxbrainyeah awesome and funny at same time, yes I agree on dificulty I don't know how crochet works, but I remember my grandma doing very quick and complicated movements , if that movements can be translated to some kind of rotary/linear movements, as for example a sewing machine, can face it, a crochet RipRap or makerbot head. a video showing on slow motion the diferent crochet movements and diferent kind of dots, might help to think in such cnc tool.01:41
kyakwolfspraul: hi! i made some adjustments to the bot and documented it in server_setup. Could you have a look if this is sufficient to not swap it away on server reinstall/cleanup? :)01:52
wolfspraulkyak: no worry, I came across a bit drakonian, but actually I very much appreciate every bit of help, as you know :-)01:58
wolfspraullet me check the doc...01:59
wolfsprauloh I think it's nice!02:00
wolfspraulyou built the 2 .so files on your local machine?02:00
kyaknope, on the server02:00
wolfspraulyes we could document that, but we can also do that next time. documentation can improve slowly :-)02:01
wolfspraulI may go over it one day to format it a bit more in line with the rest, but it's great! thanks a lot!02:01
wolfspraulso those modules are already working now?02:02
wolfspraulhow does it work? we can send commands to qi-bot?02:02
kyak!stats wolfspraul02:02
wolfspraul!stats wolfspraul02:02
kyakliek this :)02:02
kyakpublic commands are mentioned in wiki02:02
wolfsprauldoes everybody see the response?02:02
kyaksame can be used in private msg, without "!"02:03
rjeffries!stats rjeffries02:03
wolfspraulprivate msg to the bot?02:03
wolfspraul /msg qi-bot ?02:03
kyakyes, the response is sent to channel or privates msg02:03
kyak/msg qi-bot stat #qi-hardware nick02:04
kyakyea, me to -\02:04
rjeffriesluak a small suggestion> IMO "stats" is more natural that "stat"02:05
kyaknp to add anothe bind02:05
kyakluke :)02:05
rjeffrieswhat does idle-factor mean02:06
kyaksome ratio between the time you idle and time you speak02:07
kyakthe bigger the factor, the less you speak02:08
rjeffriesso 99 would be nearly pure lurker and 0.5 would be always talking more or less02:09
kyaki think so02:09
rjeffriesok. cool.02:09
kyakwolfspraul: is there a way to upload text files (like configs) in wiki?02:14
wolfspraulI just added .txt upload for Jane, but she said it didn't work for her (strange cause I tested it)02:14
wolfspraulin general I would say - no02:14
wolfspraulthe idea of wiki is wiki marup02:14
wolfsprauluploads are at best meant for really non-textual files like audio, video, pictures02:15
wolfspraulof course we are also uploading pdfs, and there is a nice viewer for them02:15
kyakwhat is the best way to keep track of changed config files according to your scheme?02:15
wolfspraulespecially for pdfs that we get from outside, there really is no other option02:15
wolfspraulI just remember the edits I made manually.02:15
wolfspraul(remember = document)02:16
wolfspraulsome people go as far as putting the entire /etc folder into a revision control system etc. (david mentioned something along those lines yesterday)02:16
wolfspraulI use this free-style notes only, the way you wrote it there is perfect.02:17
kyakok, i didn't mention what was changed in configs, but it's not a big deal.. the configs are relatively tiny02:17
kyakthe *.so build process is "documented" in bash_history, so won't be too hard to extract it, too :)02:18
tuxbrainwiki is randomly failing, can you check on your part?02:18
wolfspra1ldon't worry what you have looks great. we can improve this later.02:18
wolfspra1lbash_history documentation sounds a bit, well, exotic ;-)02:19
wolfspra1ltuxbrain: just added a url, worked02:20
wolfspra1lin which way does it fail for you?02:20
kyaknot so bad, put it in revision control, make infinite history size (or rotate it), and all your changes are documented, too :)02:20
kyakof course, you need to edit configs with sed/awk :)02:20
wolfspraulsvn for config is over-engineered imho, I want to document system-level decisions too, rescue plans, lvm setup, snapshot scripts, etc.02:23
wolfspraulso I just use a free-flow text file, basically 'notes'02:23
wolfspraulbut there are many good systems, if someone else uses svn for config, fine, I would go along02:24
wolfspraulI could put my extra stuff in /etc/dont_forget.conf02:24
wolfspraulwow, on the Nokia front I just read that Nokia spends 4 times as much on R&D than Apple02:31
wolfspraulit certainly doesn't look like that... :-)02:31
kyakNokia has 10 times more devices than Apple.. so it could be02:32
wolfspraulthey must be 10 times less effective02:32
wolfsprauloh I'm sure the money is spent02:32
wolfspraulthat's always the easy part. getting results, and focusing them on one spot, is a bit harder.02:32
tuxbrainok me also but navigator has  has return some server too much long to respond errors02:33
wolfspraulis it working for you now or you still have issues?02:33
tuxbrainapple mkt department is what is awesome, not his R+D02:33
tuxbrainnow is working02:33
wolfspraulI am aware of intermettent problems, very hard to track down.02:34
wolfspraulmy only hope would be a complete from-scratch installation, for example on Debian Squeeze02:34
wolfspraulor a controlled upgrade to a clean Squeez02:34
wolfspraulbut that's a lot of work, so for now we can just 'hang in' with the wiki...02:34
wolfspraultuxbrain: if you have more trouble, please holler02:34
wolfspraulI'm editing all the time too, and I think the problems are rare.02:34
kyakxiangfu: hi! good to see you back :)03:38
xiangfukyak: Hi03:38
xiangfukyak: finally, I back to Beijing. :)03:40
kyakdid you have a good rest?03:40
wolfspraulxiangfu: ah hi!03:44
wolfspraulxiangfu: you were so dearly missed that kyak even installed a seen extension to qi-bot so we can monitor when you come back :-)03:44
xiangfuhaha :-)03:45
xiangfukyak: much better now. arrive Beijing today morning.03:47
kyakxiangfu: can i start buggin you already? :) we need your git super powers to merge latest backfire into our branch. There was some important backport of cmake.mk03:49
kyakxiangfu: could you perhaps create a short how-to do it?03:50
wolfspraulxiangfu: ah yes, and David reported a gettext compile error. I wanted to run a config.full_system build myself to reproduce it, but now that you are there maybe you will get to it before me...03:52
wolfspraulif you took an overnight train, maybe you need to rest a little first :-)03:52
kyakgettext compile error?03:53
wolfspraulhow many hours was your train ride?03:53
wolfspraulyes, it was on the list03:53
kyakok, it is fixed already03:54
kyakDavid must update his feeds03:54
kyakhere is the fix https://dev.openwrt.org/changeset/2538903:55
kyakhere is the  bug https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/841303:55
wolfspraulcan you reply? just run scripts/feeds update -a && scripts/feeds install -a ?03:55
kyakrun make package/symlinks03:56
wolfspraulI can reply.03:56
wolfspraulfirst scripts/feeds update / install ?03:56
wolfspraulor only make package/symlinks ?03:56
kyakonly make package/symlinks03:56
xMffodd, the gettext error happens inside #  if __GLIBC__ >= 2 && !defined __UCLIBC__03:57
kyakoh, he might be using feeds.conf from data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf03:57
xMffshould not even be seen by the compiler if uclibc is in use03:57
kyakthe feeds revision is fixed there.. i don't know whether there was such bug in that revision03:58
kyakxMff: yes, made us wonder, too03:58
xMffoh... heh03:59
xMffhttps://dev.openwrt.org/browser/packages/libs/gettext-full/patches/005-uclibc-0.9.30-compat.patch - that was the patch from the ticket03:59
xMffis not in yet or is it not effective?03:59
kyakis effective for me03:59
kyaki guess David might be on wrong feeds revision04:00
xMffso maybe the people with build issues just don't have it yet?04:00
kyaknot the latest04:00
xMffI see04:00
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update feeds.conf revision for recently NLS update http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/40c0a9804:01
wolfspraulkyak: xiangfu ok I am lost somewhere there. so what does David need to do to fix his bug?04:09
kyakfor now, use the feeds.conf which was just updated by xiangfu. Then update his feeds with make package/symlinks04:10
xMff./scripts/feeds update  works too04:11
xiangfuthis bug have report at :  https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8413.  Fixed with r25389.  I just reply his email04:12
kyakcool :)04:12
xMffthe glib2 error is odd, did not encounter it here04:15
xiangfuxMff: the last 100 lines is here: http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild-02092011-0900/BUILD_LOG.02092011-1024.last10004:19
xiangfuyou can find full build log at http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild-02092011-0900/04:20
xMffxiangfu: /home/xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-  would be interesting04:20
xiangfuxMff: http://svn.fttrc.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.dailybuild/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-
xiangfukyak: hi, I add one little script file for nanonote : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/nanonote-files/script-files/usr/bin/mtd.nn04:26
xiangfunow u-boot support 5 different boot . [M] for boot from sd card. [F1/2/3/4] can boot different kernel with different kernel command line04:27
xiangfuand end user can easy modify the them by using this little 'mtd.nn' and 'fw_setenv'04:28
Jay7morning :)04:51
Jay7wolfspraul: you may think that photos are in public domain04:51
Jay7tuxbrain: both cases was made in two days04:53
Jay7even in two evenings04:53
wpwraksometimes, it really helps to just throw away your tree and rebuild from scratch ...05:01
xMffsolved heisenbugs?05:01
wpwrakxMff: mysterious USB problem just evaporated05:02
kyakxiangfu: that's great! is it loading the same kernel, but with different options?05:06
kyakxiangfu: it seems that mtd.nn still has 1730MiB data, is it correct?05:07
xiangfukyak: 1730 not correct. also the help message. fixing now.05:08
kyakwpwrak: actually, your problems evaporated the moment you thrown away your tree. Rebuild is optional :)05:08
wpwrakkyak: ;-))05:08
xiangfukyak: it's can load different kernel by edit 'bootcmdf1/2/3/4' http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/nanonote-files/script-files/usr/bin/mtd.nn#L6805:08
xiangfukyak: the L59 is default kernel from nand. L68 will load the kernel form sd card.05:09
kyakxiangfu: ah, it's very useful!05:09
kyakso currently it is set to boot from varios sd partitions05:11
xiangfukyak: since the kernel < 2M(the kernel partitions is 4M). we reflash two kernel to ben nanonote nand.  offset 4M and offset 6M05:11
xiangfukyak: yes.05:11
kyakoh, we should write the second kernel exactly at 6M offset, then05:12
kyakxiangfu: btw, i'm also not seeing the glib2 bug...05:14
kyaki'll try to re-build it now05:15
xiangfukyak: ok. maybe it's the host system problem. I am start a new build in buildhost.05:17
kyakhowever, i do have this error with pango: https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/881305:17
xMffkyak: was the autoreconf successful?05:19
xMffkyak: during pango compilation05:19
kyakxMff: give me a sec, i'll finish glib2 build05:20
dvdkxiangfu: wrt plplot build problem: can you add VERBOSE=1 to Host/Compile make command line and post build logs?05:20
kyakok, glib2 builds fine...05:21
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: nanonote script file mtd.nn update help message and data partition size http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c63119705:25
xiangfudvdk: sure.05:26
kyakxMff: http://pastebin.mandriva.com/2190705:26
kyakthis is the complete pango log05:27
xMffah right backfire...05:27
wolfspraulJay7: public domain, perfect05:27
wolfspraulthanks a lot05:27
xMfftry changing PKG_FIXUP:=libtool to PKG_FIXUP:=autoreconf05:28
Jay7wolfspraul: :)05:28
xMffI'll soon backport the whole autofoo workarounds from trunk05:28
wpwrakxMff: how about a little expert system, let's call it "luddite", that liberates projects from autofoo, leaving a nice and clean makefile ? ;-)05:30
kyakxMff: hmm, now it fails from the very beginneing05:31
xMffautofail ftw05:31
kyakwell ok, we'll just wait for that magica backport and take it together with cmake.mk :)05:32
mirkotuxbrain: a little video demonstrating switching units is planned :)05:45
mirkohowever i'd like to finish one feature first (state sharing)05:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: support device -> host side of the ATUSB EP0 protocol http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ec21e4b05:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: updated board parameters for latest run http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/dadc68305:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/ep0.c: make commands needed for sending work http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6969e7d05:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/: move board-specific items to board-specific file http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/4f0af3905:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2/: assigned hardware revision code point; some cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/dcfa68905:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: added proper support for interrupt polling http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3e9f96105:54
rjeffriesGood morning tuxbrain07:25
tuxbrainhi all , ok mirko , good morning rjeffries :)07:28
rjeffriesjoke mode ON tuxbrain, will you sell me a quantity of UBB when it is ready I can be yur USA sub-distributor07:30
tuxbrainok :) once I got prices I will ask you how many do you want, I think due it size we can use the regular mail with some "warranties" to avoid lossess and so (spain national mail is a nighmare) to not increase much the price due shipping.07:32
rohi think we should oem something like this http://pulster.de/index.htm?d__is01__Sharp_IS011340.htm  and remove the not international working stuff07:36
rohmeans tv and cdma07:36
rohtv is idsb if its japan, such it wouldn work anywhere besides there.07:37
rohi knew the netwalker and its about 450E, which iss too expensive. that one could sell for 200 given real volume07:38
rjeffriesI like Netwalker but the price is high07:47
rohsure. my thought was that the is01 solves that07:48
rjeffrieswhat is is01 please07:48
rjeffriesI had a discouraging discuzzion with a group of 20 hackers last night about Ben Nanonote07:49
wolfspraulroh: how do we get the m1 cases to Taiwan?07:53
wpwrakrjeffries: (ubb) giving up on looking for a pcb maker in the US already ?07:53
tuxbrainrjeffries: discouraging?07:55
rjeffrieswpwrak: have not had time yet. very busy period. will get first email off now07:56
rjeffriestuxbrain: I will write a short report to the qi-hardware list. briefly, they think it is better to buy say a used android phone and root it07:57
wpwrakrjeffries: (ubb) so you're still trying. good. will be useful for also have quotes from different places.07:57
tuxbrainbah, antivendor scheme is a no go business...07:58
rjeffrieswpwrak I am convinced UBB will be important. no problemo. but smart people are not convinced of value of Ben07:59
wolfspraulthere is no way you can convince them otherwise I think, the only thing that works is lead by example.07:59
wolfspraulI hope they actually do some reverse engineering though, and not just more armchair generals.08:00
rjeffriesthey really dislike lack of WiFi, and are not members of the Wolfgang Church of Copyleft08:00
wolfspraulI've done a lot. I believed in this approach, wait, maybe 8 years ago? (for phones)08:00
rjeffrieswell two people may order. I can;t do grouo buy, but the price difference to them is only an extar $2008:00
wolfspraulthey've probably also never got a complete wifi solution to actually work well (you could ask them).08:01
wolfspraulit's hard to discuss when there is a big experience gap. I'm not sure what they did or plan to do, maybe they have some ideas we overlooked :-)08:01
wolfspraulbut of course, it sounds very familiar. just need to keep in mind that in my experience, 95% of people just talk, at most 5% act08:01
wpwrakrjeffries: (root android) that's called the antivendor approach. it's been tried and failed miserably. it looks attractive but is only applicable in very very small niches.08:02
rjeffriesthese guys at a Hackerspace are quite practical they use Arduino to control robots that sort of thing. they are not bad guys at all08:02
wolfspraulnobody said that. we talk about phones in particular.08:02
rjeffrieswpwrak I am not representing thier viewpoint. I am only reporting. They did listen (it was irc) but were not moved08:03
wolfspraulsure. it's good you tried.08:03
wolfspraulmost people simply gave up on phones, that's what I hear08:04
rjeffriesdata on how potential customers view a product is neither good or bad it just  is data08:04
rjeffriesthese guys are not into phones08:04
wolfspraulis also a far stretch to imagine if you look at the Ben :-)08:05
rjeffriesmore on the robot front. amd other little hardwar eprojects such as a LED cube that makes pretty colors08:05
wolfspraulI will try to get some voip software to it, it has speaker and microphone, maybe something can work.08:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: anti-vendor also has its issues outside of phones. maybe slightly less, because you have a little less closed junk and a bit longer lifecycles, but still08:06
rjeffrieswolfgang when the wpwrak radio for Ben and matching radio for PC is ready that may really help08:06
rohwolfspraul: not sure yet. was in bed the last days08:06
rjeffriesmy idea is Ben as dedicated controller in home automation network will be interesting08:07
rohrjeffries: do you read whats written here or only write?08:07
kyakwrite :)08:08
rjeffriesOFFTOPIC but really interesting technology: http://gigaom.com/2011/02/09/pelican-imaging/08:08
rjeffriesroh what do you mean by that sir>08:09
wpwrakkyak: we should also get the commits/words ratio :-)08:10
rjeffrieswpwrak guys I can go away. thanks for such a friendly atmosphere. I never presented mself as aLinux software guru08:11
steve|mwords/commits: Division by zero!08:11
rohrjeffries: scroll up.08:11
wolfspraulroh: ok. do you feel better now?08:11
rohrjeffries: your question suggest that you do not read what i wrote.08:11
wpwraksteve|m: that's why you have to pick your operands carefully ;-)08:11
rohwolfspraul: a bit. on the way... still in bed tho08:12
wolfspraulroh: my current favorite is 2 * 2kg airmail letter. print the chinese address on a label and attach outside as well.08:12
wolfspraulmy worry would be how long it takes to ship, but I'm not really in a rush (want to get it off the table though). and theoretically if it's lost, not sure for letters there is any sort of insurance.08:13
wolfspraulwell, it should arrive08:13
wolfspraulmaybe we just do that?08:13
wolfspraulI hope you get a receipt that can proove it was exported.08:13
wolfspraulroh: let me know when you are fully recovered then we seal the (shipping) deal.08:14
rohwolfspraul: sure08:14
wolfspraulI want to get those 10 to Taiwan first, play with them a little, then order the next 80 (or 75) at some point.08:14
wpwrakusing a transceiver without any RF components at all is fun. it works. just about 30 dB weaker than with them :-)08:15
wolfspraulyou mean without antenna?08:15
rohwolfspraul: to be fair: i still think its uneconomic to send such amounts of stuff around the planet twice08:15
wpwrakwithout antenna, balun, dc blocking caps08:15
rohsomehow even unecologic *sigh*08:16
wpwrakroh: you're so sure the shipments will get lost ?08:16
rohno. not that. its just expensive and if its sent back to europe in the end its kinda superflous08:17
rjeffriessteve|m give me a break, nit everyone in this community does the same thing. some people crochet cases. some write driver. others create acrylic cases for Milkymist. some are serious DIY onlookers who want to fand a way to use Ben in clever ways.\08:17
wpwrakroh: ah, you mean sent back with an mm1 inside ? well, for europe, local distributors may be more attractive anyway08:18
rohrjeffries: about your 'talks with hackers'08:19
rjeffriesroh message me to tell me what I should have read. I read it all. I also later read the damn logs08:19
rjeffrieswhat about it roh? don't be shy I can take it08:19
rohrjeffries: i have one old prototype and some oem device with different sw but basically the same mainboard around. no 'final' nanonote.08:19
rohstill i wouldnt know a single friend or hacker around here who i could sell one of these.08:19
rjeffriesok roh that is fine08:20
rohwhy? well.. no usecase.08:20
rohrjeffries: http://pulster.de/index.htm?d__is01__Sharp_IS011340.htm08:20
rohdunno the sharp url.08:20
rjeffriesok. cool. so maybe we have similar data. thank you, I agree the use case if one is not strong copylet person is weak08:20
rohpropably in for-me-unparsable-ja-chars anyhow08:21
wolfspraulroh: I agree but I cannot optimize that aspect now. I need to get the whole package together, and fast, and sell it.08:21
wolfspraulthen we can optimize optimize optimize. and that is definitely one part of it, for sure.08:21
rohrjeffries: well.. what usecase? you can use it for what its sold in asia.. as lexicon, as translator (install dict? etc)08:21
rohbut without connectivity.. nada.08:21
rohwolfspraul: sure08:22
rohrjeffries: i got suggestions to use it as kind of a crypto-vault (which is basically the only usecase which i know which needs to NOT have connnectivity.08:22
rohbut thats senseless without hw support like a real rng etc.08:22
rjeffriesroh yes I looked at that Pulster is01 page earlier. I loke that device. I do not like the price so yes, if somone could shenzen it, that would be awesome08:23
wpwrakroh: with UBB you can use to talk to your electronics :) i must say i quite enjoy using it in this role - much more convenient than gta02+debug board or, even worse, concocting something that attaches to a pc08:23
rohrjeffries: 250E isnt that bad.08:23
rohwpwrak: ubb still doesnt solve the issue. it mediates it. not solve.08:23
rjeffriesI think woldspraul is an existence proof that shenzen process does not translate into fabulous sales08:23
rohwpwrak: i think we should step up. we are much too slow right now.08:24
wpwrakroh: UBB helps you talk to your electronics08:24
rohwpwrak: ubb is your new name for 'the 802.15.4 wireless modem'?08:24
wpwrakroh: (step up) oh, agrees. but this needs more resources. any suggestions  ? :)08:24
wpwrakroh: (UBB) you've really been out for a long time ;)08:24
wpwrakroh: UBB is your "tldr" :)08:25
roh2 things: you guys rename shit too often. and second these 'abbreviations' do only generate confusion08:25
rohi mean.. if I cannot follow you guys.. that should be a bright blinking red indicator.08:25
wpwrakroh: UBB started as UBB and was never renamed :)08:26
rohhm. there isnt even a wikipage about it08:27
rohaaah.. now i get it. the breakout thingie?08:27
rohnah. that solves nothing for non-devels.08:27
rohnice to play for guys like me. but we solder smt directly to the nn if needed.08:28
wpwrakroh: (crypto-vault) i don't think you need a high-rate source of randomness. the existing low-rate sources should be plenty.08:28
rohwpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world-sales angle.08:29
rohwpwrak: for proper crypto we need proper random. currently we got NONE.08:29
rohand kids bs like noisy resistors isnt good enough by far.08:29
rohbtw. that crypto vault idea was suggested by someone living from crypto products he produces.08:30
wpwrakroh: UBB could be attractive for basically the same demographic group that today does arduino. that's already a few. certainly no world domination yet, but a start.08:30
wpwrakroh: win one segment at a time :)08:30
rohwpwrak: sure. but why use a board which needs a device which costs 100E?08:30
roharduinos cost 2-digit euros. some even one-digit.08:31
wpwrakroh: for development. maybe you make it autonomous later. whatever.08:31
rohthe cpu costs 2.30E08:31
roh(atmega168 or so)08:31
rohwe use it a lot.08:31
rohbut usually via isp and not with an arduino bootloader. and basically never with arduino pcb08:32
wpwrakroh: (crypto vault) it's kind of an obvious idea :) i had the same idea when wolfgang visited last year. still haven't made the bestie yet, though08:32
rohthe difference between arduino and avr for me is 'reproduceability for people less experienced as me'08:33
rohthus i use the .pde style files and their libs quite often.08:33
wpwrakroh: (crypto vault) i'd be much less worried about the RNG than about device integrity. attacks against the crypto or the RNG are very rare and basically only happen if you have ancient stuff or int random(void) { return 4; /* random dice throw */ }08:33
wpwrakroh: (avr) what's .pde ?08:34
rohwpwrak: the arduino 'sources'08:35
rjeffriescompared with Ben, Arduinio community is huge08:35
rohit gets preprocessed by adding a header and then compiled by avr-gcc. nothing weird.08:35
wpwrakroh: ah, poor man's IDE :)08:36
rohin the end Arduinio is the way teaching people C without the need to let them know up infront08:36
rohi dont use their ide. i have a makefile.08:36
rohwpwrak: https://m21.hyte.de/wiki/EmcArduino08:37
rohthe top most link has the .pde linked08:37
rjeffriessmiles: 05:27 <roh> wpwrak: please dont let me pull you down. i am just viewing this from a real-world sales angle //WAIT that is MY job description. we should start  aUnion08:38
dvdkwho complained about missing RNG in nanonote?  just sample the microphone input :)08:38
rohdvdk: you need to go back to school about whats random really is;)08:38
rohand true. rng is only ONE of the issues08:39
dvdkroh: who needs to go back to school here? :)  entropy is entropy even if not in the shape of a gauss distribution.08:39
rohit would also need tamper protection etc.08:39
xiangfudvdk: here is the plplot compile log: http://buildhost.openmobilefree.net/~xiangfu/plplot.compile.log.bz2  (after update openwrt-xburst.git and qipackages)08:39
rohdvdk: mic input isnt random at all.08:39
dvdkhi xiangfu, thanks; maybe won't be able to do anything about that until saturday08:40
wpwrakroh: (pde) hmm yes, a bit clumsy but definitely C08:40
xiangfudvdk: sure.08:40
wpwrakroh: (tamper protection for the RNG) probably overkill. that would only matter if the device is being tampered with when you generate your keys.08:42
dvdkroh: but part of if is. (i.e. thermical noise of amplifier, whatever).  i.e. there is _some_ entropy in it.  more than you could otherwise (easily) gather in the nn.08:42
wpwrakroh: (tamper protection) i would just install a keylogger ;-)08:42
rohwpwrak: not for the rng. for the full device.08:43
wpwrakroh: (full device) ah, here we agree :)08:43
rohwpwrak: like in well built otp-generators or cash terminals.08:43
wpwrakroh: yeah. fill it with phosphor and seal it airtight. that should teach the tamperers :)08:44
rjeffriesI would use a password vault. but wpwrak is right, the main PC must be secure. it is a Hard Problem08:44
wpwrakroh: another tricky problem is replacement08:45
wpwrakroh: in the end, it all depend how valuable a target you are08:45
rohdvdk: its still no proper random that can or should be used for crypto. it could be ONE of several sources. but its by far too bad.08:45
rohto be used alone atleast.08:47
wpwrakroh: (random) do you know how /dev/random works ? with the randomness pool, different sources, and rate control ?08:47
dvdkroh: i'm lacking the crypto background; just judging from signal processing (wireless comm.) stuff I did.  there we had the reverse problem, though.08:49
wpwrakdvdk: hah, when we add wireless, we let the crypt-vault just suck all the randomness bits out of the signal. both win ;-))08:50
dvdkalso I'd say, putting microphone samples in a long, long "shift register", the output should tend to gaussian distribution (when shift reg long enough).  as there's no long-time correlation in the input samples (long-long-time correlation cannot even be 'injected' by an attacker due to clock drift, jitter etc.)08:51
dvdki mean shift-register with taps and xor/adding for output, btw08:51
rjeffriesmarketing ideaL rename the radio as H2O RANDOMNESS SUCKER08:51
wpwrakdvdk: naw, you make a pool. xor any new bit(s) with the pool, then run the pool through a hash to "mix" the new bits with the rest.08:52
dvdkwhatever we do, bit-rate of entropy bits won't be much larger than 2*sample_rate08:52
wpwrakdvdk: LSRs are a bit scary for crypto applications. i would use something stronger. md5 or such.08:53
wpwrakdvdk: probably much less08:53
rohwpwrak: i do. i wouldnt use it for a cryptovault.08:53
rohwpwrak: http://warmcat.com/_wp/2009/05/21/whirlygig-pcb/08:53
rohdvdk: dont reinvent the wheel badly. please. read up about random.08:54
dvdkwpwrak: was just a "thought experiment".  you won't be able to statistically analyze microphone-input + md5 :)08:54
rohalso please differenciate between rng and prng08:55
rohafaik the best method is 'lava lamps'08:56
wpwrakroh: that's a very high-rate random number source. well, perhaps we're talking about different usage scenarios. what i have in mind is a password safe. there you need just a few kbits every now and then08:57
dvdkyou guys are probably right. and more educated than me.08:57
wpwrakroh: you can of course over-engineer the rng at your heart's content, but that's like gold-plated cables for audiophiles :)08:58
dvdkroh: wpwrak: this sums it up, won't it: http://xkcd.com/538/08:59
rohdvdk: only for the fun aspect. i know people who only survived certain situation due to proper crypto.09:00
wpwrakdvdk: yeah, that's their BATNA :)09:01
wpwrakroh: their opponents can't have been very serious. when i rule the world, i'll not only have those executed who know something they shouldn't, but also those i suspect of knowing something :)09:03
rohwpwrak: wrong side. you cant be forced to give up passwords in .de09:03
rohone of the reasons i dont ever visit us or uk.09:04
dvdkroh: you mean, cannot be forced /by the government/09:04
rohdvdk: ack.09:04
wpwrakroh: i'm sure this little oversight will be corrected in one way or another when it matters09:05
rjeffrieswpwrak You have mail.09:05
rohwpwrak: nope. i dont see that. we will have other issues first.09:06
wpwrakwhoa. soon, i'll need a rjeffries folder :)09:06
rjeffrieswpwraK yes, you will. it is all good09:06
rohwpwrak: in the end its not politician who decide. its business. and business around here has no interrest in giving up their secret passwords. think deutsche bank and such;)09:07
rohespecially not to law enforcement09:07
wpwrakroh: business will of course be exempted. at least in real life :)09:09
wpwrakrjeffries: he didn't really understand what you want. you should have sent him at least a link to the gerbers09:10
rjeffrieswell I can tell him I have the gerbers09:11
wpwrakrjeffries: send him the link. don't make him ask for every bit of information individually :)09:11
rjeffriesis there now one or two links that describe the project? pls remind me09:11
rjeffriesmy friend is a busy guy I only asked him for high level info. I may send the package to that consultant guy however09:12
wpwrakrjeffries: maybe just forward him the production section of the mail. plus a link to a picture of the board.09:12
wpwrakrjeffries: for panelization, the best would be if the fab can do it. for this, they need to understand that the pcb itself is the final product. i.e., you don't care in which form and arrangement you receive the pcbs. in particular, you don't won't feed them to any machine (smt or such)09:14
rjeffriesthe guy who answered me has other things to do. he pointed me to resources. I can send them a package, once I find the right bits09:14
wpwrakrjeffries: if the fab doesn't want to do it, then you need their specs for doing it09:14
rjeffriesok, rw panelization I get it09:14
rjeffriesok fine09:14
wpwrakrjeffries: (resources) ok. try them then. maybe also ping your "consultant" for possibly cheaper places.09:15
rjeffriesconsultant can send it to China and the extra time is a don't care09:15
wpwrakrjeffries: the main constraints are board thickness and the accuracy of the cut. the cheapest "hobbyist" places can't even do 0.8 mm. (and they won't be able to cut the board either)09:16
wpwrakrjeffries: china is always an option, yes. there, they also have modern machines :)09:16
rjeffriesI have already figured that out09:16
rjeffriesso I get maybe 250 emails a day. do I look in qi-hardware mail list archive to find the correct emails?09:17
wpwrakif you search long enough, you'll find old-fashioned places that only do things > 10 mil and with 100 mil copper-to-board-edge separation ;-)09:17
rjeffrieswpwrak you know a LT about pcb fab09:18
wpwrakonly 250 ? lucky man. yes, the "the Universal Breakout Board (UBB)" thread09:18
wpwrakrjeffries: (know a lot) only some basics. i've never had one manufactured myself. the simple ones, i rather do myself. the complex ones quickly get too expensive for this poor hobbyist.09:19
rjeffries_wpwrak pls look at this page. are top two items what I should use?09:28
wpwrakrjeffries_: yes. of the long one, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/ubb.jpg09:30
wpwrakrjeffries_: and the section "Industrially producing UBB"09:30
wpwrakrjeffries_: (unless your friend likes to read a lot :)09:31
rjeffries_now I have too edit? /// laughs out loud /// you assume a high IQ that may or may not be true09:31
wpwrakrjeffries_: well, let your secretary do it :)09:32
rjeffries_oh, now I need ti hire a secretary. Great idea. I'll get on it. ;)09:33
rjeffries_I am creating an email now09:34
rohanybody tried the web-calculators of the prominent pcb manufs?09:35
rohah. pcb-pool doesnt have 0.8 in the online-thingie. custom quote has it.09:37
tuxbrainwpwrak: maybe I will have access to a smt machine soon, also this guy works on recover things with plastic instead of pack them in a box (whatever techname it has) , what about if instead of build a box for atben/atusb, recover them with resin?09:37
tuxbrainI have to talk directly to him to have more info09:37
rjeffries_roh I tried one of online web tools was a pain in the ass everything needed to be in inches09:38
rohheh. imperial crap. used by the us and ... birma.09:44
wpwrakroh: i ran one on 4pcb. per-board cost about USD 1 for ~1-2 kunits09:51
wpwrakroh: it's a bit hard to calculate this, because they have a minimum size of 1 in x 1 in09:52
wpwraktuxbrain: (resin) hmm, that's not very open, isn't it ?09:53
wpwraktuxbrain: if all else fails, we could just dunk them in silicone. that can be removed cleanly, if necessary09:53
tuxbrainno a resined electronic will be dificult to hack indeed,09:54
wpwraktuxbrain: i also found non-corrosive silicone :)09:54
tuxbrainbut we can have some unresined ones for hack and covered ones.. is an option, whatever I must asses me better on this once I talk with the guy09:55
rohwpwrak: pcbpool seems to have no problem doing 100pcs of 10x30mm boards09:56
roh1.0 and 1.6mm thick is about the same cost09:56
rohdunno about 0.809:56
rohits about 1.0-1.2E/piece09:57
tuxbrainI say resin but I have not clear what material is , is used to give ip65 to things from electronics to passtrough holes for cables09:57
tuxbrainroh plus shipping?09:57
tuxbrainand customs?09:57
wpwraktuxbrain: http://www.siloc.com.ar/siloc/serie_industrial.php?series_key=SILICONA_INDUSTRIAL_NEUTRA10:00
rohtuxbrain: dunno. both dead cheap withing europe.10:01
rohno customs. where on earth are you?10:01
tuxbrainsorry I was thinking it was in china, I'm from spain dude :)10:01
rjeffries_wpwrak I have draft email to PCB consultant in your mail box10:03
tuxbrainwpwrak: I know that kind of silicon :) I had worked in costruction in my youth, but this kind of cober will not protect the electronics to torsion or hits... is a very soft an elastic material.10:04
wpwrakrjeffries_: looks good. i would remove the two references at the end, though. they're from a different section10:06
rjeffries_I wondered about that10:07
wpwraktuxbrain: torsion and hits ... leave your ben at home when you go to the fight club ! ;-)10:07
tuxbrainit will need quite thick amount to cover it to protect from hits and avoid be removed by friction... and my nasty mind imagin such thing with that amount of silicon and with this touch feel will look like a sexual toy10:07
tuxbrainand there was enough fun on this with OM and the vibrator aplication :P10:11
wpwraktuxbrain: the 8:10 card slot should quite severely limit the amount of fun you could get out of this little toy ...10:13
tuxbrainrjeffries_: we can have some nude boards for hackers and so, but I don't thing ,if rentable, that cover the electronics to avoid accidental shortcuts and give it some protection is a bad idea10:13
wpwraktuxbrain: maybe you should think of it like an us-american strip club. just look, but no touching :)10:13
tuxbrainis not the size is how you use it10:14
rjeffries_tuxbrain at the start I would leave it bare. send advice on how to solder ribbon cable and dip in silicon10:14
tuxbrainI know that this gonna happens when I mentioned "sexual" on a geek channel :P10:14
rjeffries_I am inclined to buy the flat ribbin cable and ship a short length so user doesn't need to find that vital item10:15
tuxbrainnonono not talking on UBB, I was talking on atben/atusb10:15
tuxbrainthat has electronics and maybe used by not so DiY guys10:15
tuxbrainUBB is clearly a DIY audience10:16
rjeffries_tuxbarin agree10:16
rjeffries_tuxbrain I agree UBB is DIY and other experimenters10:16
rjeffries_marketing idea: JEFFRIES RESEARCH we sell NIDE Boards. X-rated. mailed in plian envelope10:17
rjeffries_BEDROOM BEN NANONOTE makes your woman orgasm faster10:18
tuxbrainI cannot discard our artist in comunitye use UBB them for any else porpose10:18
tuxbrainbut maybe not with you due you problable being hacking on BNN10:19
tuxbrainBen NN the IT powder box is for me the best definiton now a days :)10:20
rjeffries_a friend sent me this linkL http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdcard/10:22
rjeffries_When is the Chinese New Year over, anybody know?10:24
Mauro_Rrjeffries_: It is determined by the moon calendar. Between 30 and 59 days after of december 21st. Change every year.10:29
rjeffries_must be over now10:30
rjeffries_maybe google is my friend?10:30
Mauro_Rnice photos :-) I think that this new year it's between 2 and 17 of february ...10:35
rjeffries_phone model cycle is now 6 to9 months use3d to be 3 years10:36
rjeffries_Motorola Razor was top model for FIVE (5) years. FIVE YEARS10:36
tuxbraintime to be father for a while, see you later guys10:39
wpwrakrjeffries_: (sd card link) yeah. but what you need are the non-public dimensions ;-)10:39
rjeffries_ok no big deal to me I thinbk you already know what is needed10:45
rjeffries_I noticed that document said 1 mm thickness rather tha 0.8 mm ;)10:46
wpwrakyes, that's the overall thickness of the card. the contacts are a bit on the inside, though11:02
wpwrakbut maybe you can fit an 1.0 mm board, too11:02
wpwrak(if you can find one in the US ;)11:04
wpwrakrjeffries_: if you want to make it perfect, you can try to glue some plastic sheet on the non-contact part of the permanently inserted zone. the transparency films used for laser printers are about 100 um so plus glue and all, it would be about right.11:06
rjeffries_wpwtak sorry to be dumb but the transparancy film would be to provide insulation I think?11:12
wpwrakthat, but you don't really need isolation, because a) the traces there could only really touch metal parts with the same signal, and b) you already have a solder mask there.11:14
wpwrakbut it would add thickness, so you get to the nominal 1.0 mm. and you could use it for decorative purposes :)11:14
wpwrakin any case, don't worry. you don't need it.11:19
rohrjeffries_: i still use a motorola razr v3i. the second now. (first one died of mechanical issues/got unreliable)11:28
rjeffriessTazoe/Razor that is a funny typo11:44
rjeffriesthe transparency film could carry contact info (where to buy)11:45
Action: kyak suddenly realizes that dvdk is David Kuehling11:51
wpwrakrjeffries: fwiw, "qi-hw.com" is already printed on the silk screen (if you keep it)11:56
rjeffriesthat URL does not seem to work/11:59
rjeffrieslook if I make this investment of time and risk a few bucks, I will NOT take credit for the work og wprak12:00
rjeffriesthat is not what I am about12:00
rjeffriesmay add label that says" //joke mode ON: PROOF OF CONCEPT12:01
rjeffriestoo bad wolfsoraul is asleep (I assume)12:01
rjeffriesthat one is for wolfspraul as you know12:02
wpwrakrjeffries: (url) are you sure ? works fine for me. redirects to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Main_Page12:03
rjeffriescool it now works when I first tried it a few days a go no worky12:04
rjeffriesthat is a good url I  LOVE how short it is!!!!12:05
rjeffriesI thought I'd have a photo of myself on that laser printed protective label. The Cornel Sanders of th eUBB Empire12:06
rjeffriesKentucky Fried Chicken is still big in USA and, I think, China12:06
wpwrakrjeffries: btw, to "sell" the ben to your hacker friends, you really ought to meet them in real life and show them the device. its compactness has a convincing effect of its own that just looking at pictures and specs doesn't.12:17
dvdkkyak: pssst, don't tell anyone :)  constantly trying to escape the google indexer.12:19
kyakdvdk: pssst, don't mention google, or it will index you :)12:22
Action: dvdk is looking for a new nick :)12:23
kyakdvdk: anyway, good to meet you here :) it's much more convenient to drop a couple of lines in IRC rather than writing an e-mail12:24
Action: kyak doesn't like mailing lists12:24
dvdkkyak: only if the recipient is watching the irc channel12:24
Action: dvdk only likes irc as long as it isn't logged :)12:25
kyakhow is logging in IRC different from mailing lists logging?12:25
Action: dvdk might get fired for watching irc while at work :)12:25
kyakme too12:26
dvdkkyak: good argument.12:26
kyakor even for commits during workday...hmmm12:26
Action: dvdk is planning to create the timestamp obfuscating git client :)12:27
kyakis a very good idea!12:27
Action: dvdk is also planning to make an irc logfile nick anonymizer :)12:27
Action: dvdk is new no irc, btw.12:28
kyakwhat if the local date is changed just before the commit..?12:28
kyakwill this time be recorded in commit?12:28
dvdkkyak: you're right that's the nice thing about distributed version control.  no central server -> no central clock.12:29
kyakhm cool! what if this time is "before" the last recorded commit in repo?12:29
dvdkor in the future?12:30
kyakyeah.. like, the future midnight12:30
kyakso looks like it's the matter of env GIT_AUTHOR_DATE12:38
kyakmight want to create a wrapper around git commit12:39
dvdki guess that may trigger problems with Make for people trying to build after pull.  but then they'll just have to wait till midnight.12:40
kyakhmm, do you think this date is set for all the files in repo?12:42
dvdkmight be set for modified files on checkout12:42
dvdkMake doesn't like future timestamps12:42
kyakwhat about setting it to the previous date?12:43
dvdkhmm, i guess git must set the timestamp of the checkout, not the timestamp of the commit, else make won't correctly rebuild anyways12:43
dvdkso future dates won't be a prlobme12:44
kyakyeah, sounds reasonable12:45
kyakdo you have a commit to test? :)12:45
dvdknot today :)12:46
dvdkbut the future midnight :)12:47
kyakok, i'll try to remember it next time i commit12:47
dvdkcan't await to see whether it works12:48
kyakwill commit always at 4 a.m. My employer won't have a clue ;) I'm a tough man, working at nights :)13:00
wpwrakkyak: then rumors will start spreading that you're always sleepy during the day :)13:03
kyakgood point :)13:07
lekernelwow, when I hear that I'm happy of my choice of not having an employer to tell me where I should commit code and when :)14:14
rjeffrieslooks like someone will soon have their hands on a Ben15:45
wpwrakand besides the heisenboard, there's the tamagochiban (i wonder if this kind of morphing works - anyone speaking japanese here ? :). the tamagochiban works, but only for a while. then it need some random debugging, after which it works again for a while.18:39
rohlgpl successfull in court19:21
wpwrakroh: yeah. a bit awkwardly handled, but a success nevertheless :)19:21
rohwell..they tried.19:25
rohthe 'soft' way first... seems it didnt help19:26
wpwrakroh: probably a case of a company with lawyers in need of justifying their existence19:26
rohwpwrak: naah.. i dont think so.19:27
rohi guess it wasnt cheap to go through that at all.. so the payments should pay the legal bills if at all19:27
wpwrakno, i mean on the side of the violators19:29
rohvertriebsexperten... means. clueless idiots in sales.19:32
kristianpaulxiangfu: morning !19:50
kristianpaulwee my local owrt finish okay, so i'm not going to complaing with you for now ;-)19:51
wpwrakxiangfu: kristianpaul spends the whole day searching for bugs to annoy you with when you get up :)19:58
kristianpaullekernel: ^20:24
kristianpaulwtf http://venezuela.campus-party.org/2011/cultura-libre.html#CopyleftHardware20:48
steve|mand why the hell do they show punkbuster in the console window?20:53
kristianpaulmessy party ;)20:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: looks almost like mm1 with jtag board :)20:54
wpwrakor is it actually the mm1 ?20:55
kristianpaulseems you dont have a mm1 ;)20:56
kristianpaulit is wpwrak20:56
steve|mwell, it's on the first page of course ;) http://www.google.de/images?hl=de&source=imghp&q="copyleft+hardware"20:56
steve|msorry.. rather http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q="copyleft+hardware"20:57
kristianpauli see why wolfgang likes google now :p20:59
kristianpaulwell, actually there are no other copyleft hardware projests (yet) around isnt.. ;-)21:00
steve|myes, "commercial copyleft"21:01
wpwrakrjeffries: hmmm ... Anarctica ... in spanish, the "h" of the greek-transliterated "ch" tends to get dropped. so is this an anarchist's utopia ?21:57
rohwpwrak: ooooohhhhh *bigeyes* anarchika! *ducks*22:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: autonomously restore the clock output settings after an RF reset http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e8b680422:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: small layout improvements, mainly for solderability http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/696844122:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: draw in bottom edge by 5 mil to prevent touching the connector http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/509542a22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw2: further abstract board functions http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f8fbb0222:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib: cache chip ID in the descriptor http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e73ca5f22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools: give the driver control over CLKM (for ATmega32U2 boards) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b0c15b722:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/Makefile (clean): didn't remove Ben-specific object files http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/19926ae22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-id.c (show_usb_info): pretty-print the MCU type for ATUSB boards http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1d6fbcb22:20
rjeffriesjust gave the Ben pitch to a group of 12 guys in Sanluis Obispo22:21
rohwpwrak: any ideas about cheap flights to the carribean not involving the us from europe?23:46
rohfriend of mine wants to visit a conference on st. lucia23:46
--- Fri Feb 11 201100:00

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