#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-02-09

wolfspraulGuest94289: yes?00:53
Guest94289interested in ben nanonote device00:54
Guest94289how capable is it?00:54
Guest94289is it a kit?00:55
wolfspraulhow 'capable' - you can think of it like an unconnected PDA00:57
wolfsprauldo you know the specs? what do you have in mind with 'capable'?00:58
Guest94289well, what does "open hardware" mean?00:58
Guest94289is it a device, or just instructions and a bag of components?00:58
wolfspraulah good point :-)00:59
wolfspraulopen hardware means that we try everything possible to not hide hardware or manufacturing secrets00:59
wolfspraulin the end it's a normal portable computing device, in addition one that has very good free software support, and one you could theoretically build yourself01:00
Guest94289by "manufacturing" do you mean you assemble it out of "off the shelf" parts?01:00
Guest94289or do you actually design everything from scratch?01:01
wolfspraul'from scratch' is relative. no, there are many closed parts in it still.01:02
wolfspraulwhich perspective do you look at the NanoNote from?01:02
wolfspraulas someone who just wants to use it?01:02
wolfspraulas someone who wants to port free software to it, for whatever reason?01:03
wolfspraulor as someone who wants to manufacture an improved version and sell that?01:03
Guest94289from a perspective of someone who wants to learn how hardware works01:03
wolfspraulah cool, that's good01:04
wolfspraul'hardware works' as in the design/development of hardware, or the making/manufacturing of hardware?01:05
Guest94289well, I guess one needs to know both01:05
wolfspraulfor what need?01:06
wolfspraulyou will find a wealth of information about both things on qi-hardware.com01:06
wolfspraulthe mailing list, this channel here, the wiki and projects server01:06
wolfspraulthe planet01:06
wolfspraulBen NanoNote and (upcoming) Milkymist One are two products with some focus on01:07
Guest94289so basically this device is a CPU, some controllers, memory, flash, and keyboard/display, right?01:08
Guest94289what kind of a CPU is it?01:09
wolfspraulthe NanoNote? it's a normal, bit old-fashioned unconnected PDA01:09
wolfspraul336 Mhz mips-like01:09
Guest94289I'm not familiar with PDAs01:09
wolfspraulyou can use it as a music player, for note taking, many other small tasks you could do on-the-go01:10
wolfspraulyou can use it as a 2 gb usb-storage with keyboard & screen, password safe, etc.01:10
Guest94289where's documentation for it?01:11
Guest94289I mean hardware architecture, instruction set, etc01:12
wolfsprauljust google, most of it is in the wiki but google should have the best search access01:12
Guest94289i did, but havent' found anything01:14
Guest94289could you please post the link?01:14
wolfspraulif I google, the second link is not bad http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote01:18
wolfspraulthat's the NanoNote homepage in the wiki, in dire need of a massive cleanup but still it's a starting point01:18
wolfspraul(sorry) http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Hardware-Ben01:19
wolfspraulthere's another one01:19
wolfsprauland another one01:19
wolfspraulthere are pointers to datasheets as well01:19
wolfspraulthere are kicad and orcad schematics and layouts in the projects and downloads servers, pdf schematics01:20
Guest94289yep, just found it, thanks01:20
Guest94289who assembled it?01:21
Guest94289and how many of them exist?01:22
wolfspraulwho assembled it? workers at the Sunty factory in Shenzhen, China01:26
wolfspraulabout 1100 were sold so far01:26
wolfspraulbasically we've made 2 batches of 1000 each so far, first batch sold out, second batch selling now01:26
Guest94289i see01:27
kyakwolfspraul: since a lot of discussion is going on lately about 8:10 or ubb, or ben-wpan - is there any schedule when the new version of Ben might appear?01:31
wolfspraulyou mean a whole device? (Ya NanoNote)01:33
kyakah, so it's all coming for Ya NanoNote? then yes, i'01:35
kyaki'm speaking about Ya01:35
kyak(i though there going to be some Ben update first)01:35
wolfspraulno Ben update, and for the Ya we need a strong package and more business partners (distributors, marketing, etc)01:36
kyakok, so there is no schedule so far?01:36
wolfspraulfor sure we would want to include something like ben-wpan, but that's still quite a bit of work to make that work well, produce more, etc.01:37
wolfsprauldefinitely no schedule01:37
wolfspraulit's ready when it's ready? :-)01:37
wolfspraulmy schedule is to sell more Ben, and make the Ben stronger. any of that strength will carry over to Ya. If someone else can do it faster, more power to them.01:37
wolfspraulit is still way too hard to update the software on Ben, and the connection between Ben and free data sources (music, maps, etc) is also basically non-existant today.01:38
kyakok then :) have you thought about creating some kind of model line? i mean, right now there is Ben only, and it is the same for everyone. Then it's going to be Ya, but who know when01:39
kyakmaybe you can do some minor update to Ben hardware, add some intersting feature, and create a model line?01:39
wolfspraulno, I will sell my stock of Ben, and if I can sell it out I will make more.01:40
kyakok, i got your point01:40
wolfspraulwe haven't found the sweet spot of product features, brand awareness, fulfilling customer demands yet.01:41
wolfspraul'blindly' adding new hardware features would be a guaranteed way to make the project fail, imho01:41
wolfspraulof course it can also fail if we don't do that, but hey, I try one way. others can try other ways :-)01:41
wolfspraulwith 'blindly' adding I mean that I don't have strong enough real customer feedback for this or that feature.01:42
wolfsprauland that is because the business partners for ben are too weak, not willing to invest/order/etc. so we grow it slowly...01:42
wolfspraulthe size of orders on my end has to go up, there must be tangible (real) interest in some features01:42
wolfspraulif you want to order 500 ben, we are talking :-)01:43
wolfspraulyou pre-pay 50% when you order, the other 50% when I ship01:43
wolfspraulif I have a bunch of people where each says "I buy 1 if feature X (and Y and Z) are included", that's going nowhere01:43
wolfspraulsorry I meant if you want to order 500 ben+01:44
wolfspraulthere are very good steps happening on both hw and sw side, I think. so I am patient and continuing.01:45
kyakok, thanks for explanation!01:46
wolfspraulhow about you? are you still using your nano? are you interested in bringing more functionality to it?01:48
wolfspraulI hope we can include the mplayer you worked on asap.01:48
wolfspraulactually I'm also wondering whether it's possible to turn the Ben into a voip client.01:48
wolfspraulI still fire up my old Mac and use Skype - bah. :-)01:48
kyaklately, my wife is using it more than me :) beeting the crap out of gottet (tetris) :) sometimes we fight, when i need to reflash it :)01:49
wolfspraulhe, that doesn't sound too bad01:49
wolfspraulhopefully you still get your hands on it once in a while for polishing or more porting01:50
wolfspraulyou have been very helpful on the internationalization side, for example (among other things)01:50
wolfspraulwe need people like you for that...01:50
wolfspraulyou just cannot do this in theory by turning on a few features (config options), and thinking you are done01:51
kyakmplayer is good.. i used to watch videos in car on a way home from work.. Now the traffic is a little better, so i can't watch videos01:51
wolfspraulneeds a real user to uncover all small details01:51
wolfspraulanother thing that is on my radar/wishlist is better scripting language support01:51
kyaksure, sure.. the latest fixes of iconv/gettext are already inside openwrt-packages01:52
wolfspraulI hope we have a set of 5-10 scripting languages that are well supported, meaning that they are configured well, and have actual users.01:52
wolfspraulphp, python, perl, lua, erlang, tcl, maybe others?01:52
wolfspraulsh of course :-) and make01:52
wolfspraulI think right now there's a lot of loose ends on the scripting language side. we have enabled some, but the configuration options are essentially random, and I don't think many people use them, so the config options won't get better either.01:53
kyakyeah.. i use tcl from time to time, but not on Ben..01:54
kyakthough i commited my .tclshrc :)01:55
wolfspraulis tcl on ben already? (I don't even know)01:55
wolfsprauldo you think it is in an actually usable state?01:55
wolfspraulor just 'compiles and installs' quality :-)01:56
kyakyeah, it's usable and even in openwrt feeds01:56
wolfspraulwith php we are now including some more modules, also pear although I don't know how/whether it works. pecl is another beast there, probably hard on Ben.01:57
wolfspraulI think the main problem with scripting languages is that we need people who are actively using them.01:57
kyakyou know, the problem for me is that i can't do a lot of fun things offline01:57
wolfspraulif we have them, and get good feedback from them, it should get better fast. if we don't have them, whatever we do that language will most likely be a stub/empty promise in reality.01:57
kyakmost of the time, Ben is connected to laptop via USB01:58
kyakwhen i'm offline, the best i can do is play games :)01:58
wolfspraulsame for me. real offline is only listening to music and some note taking.01:58
wolfspraulah yes, games too.01:58
kyakor maybe do some random things in shell01:58
kyakexplore openwrt internals :)01:58
qi-bot[commit] kyak: qstardict: needs setting QMAKE_CXX explicitely http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/70f619803:41
kyakmirko: weird, qstardict failed to build after recent qt4 updates. I had to make the change as above -^03:42
kyakstrangely, other qt4 apps still build fine03:43
qi-bot[commit] kyak: links: update version, enable openssl, enable svgalib (working!) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d799c0a04:00
kyakwolfspraul: may i ask you to give me access to gmenu2x git repo?04:04
tuxbrainhi rejon, skype call pending , when do you want to schedule it?05:34
rejonlets do on friday05:36
rohhey rejon05:40
rejonwordup roh05:40
roheverything went fine on fosdem?05:40
rejonpackage delivered05:40
wolfspraulkyak: of course, nothing easier than that05:46
wolfspraulkyak: added, thanks a lot for asking05:48
kyakwolfspraul: thanks!05:48
tuxbrainrejon friday will be complicated due I have an whole day Arduino Event... let schedule it without delay on monday05:54
rejonsounds good05:54
rejontuxbrain 6 pm your time05:55
rejonoh wait05:55
rejonlets do 4 pm your time05:55
tuxbrainmmmm then I will have only about 30 mins, I'm (mostly)free form 10:00am to 16:30 and then avobe 19:3005:56
tuxbrainwpwrak: in 20 mins or so I will have a call from the pcb maker ... let's see...05:57
tuxbrainlast time for a one sided 100 units of a 50x40mm pcb where 120¬ to setup and then 1,23¬ each, lets see how much this time05:58
qi-bot[commit] kyak: links: forcedly disable mouse for svgalib http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5030cca06:05
wpwraktuxbrain: you write this 37 min ago. what did they say ? :)06:36
tuxbrainpatience mes ami, if he don't call back at in other 25 I will call him :)06:37
tuxbrainI was quite bussy on the phone today so maybe I was on a call when he does ...06:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: (scripting) for making scripting real fun, the keyboard needs a bit of a cleanup. most programming languages like special characters. their placement is a bit of a brain-twister.06:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: (connectedness) maybe, "real work only when connected" is the way to go. or, rather, users behaving very different in connected and unconnected mode.06:48
kyakwhat a man! nothing can be left behind him hidden in scrollback :)06:49
wpwraknothing better than a fat backlog to start the day :)06:49
kyakso you admit that there is such thing as "the start of the day"? :)06:50
wpwrakthat time after a multihour sleep period, between maybe 3am and noon local time. closes approximation i have :)06:52
kyakso now you admit that you actually sleep? :)06:55
wpwrakkyak: (kbd) actually, about 50% of what i want the ya for is a new keyboard :) i've become increasingly convinced of the general horridness of the two fn-like modifiers. and of course, if there's a change to kill the F# keys, it would be a shame to miss it :)06:55
wpwrakkyak: let's call it think afk, with the eyes closed:)06:55
wolfspraulwpwrak: didn't you upload a proposed layout somewhere?06:58
wolfspraulit's not linked from the ya page yet I think, I want to add the link06:58
zrafawolfspraul: your explanations are great every time somebody gets in and ask "what is ben?" "should I buy a ben?" Somebody should take all your answers and put them on a FAQ wiki page. And about somebody buying many bens to help to grow the project: I am trying to catch that guy named sujan.. just to help this. I guess that this guy could buy those 500+ ben :) Really, and I am serioues about. Just that when he was asking me a lot of things I was very busy 06:58
wpwraklemme find it ...06:58
kyakwpwrak: i agree, also would be nice to have a possibility for localized keyboards.. i'm not sure if you udnerstand, it looks like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Keyboard_KAZ.png06:59
zrafatuxbrain: you could help me to find that guy and you could sell 500+ bens in once06:59
zrafatuxbrain: help/convince06:59
wolfspraulzrafa: sure I am convinced a real business opportunity (= real buyer) will emerge07:00
wolfspraulyour help is VERY appreciated, we need to follow every serious lead07:00
wpwrakkyak: (localized) yes, i've been thinking of you :)07:00
zrafawolfspraul: he is perfect I guess. If the things he was telling me are true07:00
zrafawolfspraul: then he is some of those guy (real business)07:00
wpwrakkyak: my goal would be a) make the (current) layout more friendly, and b) make the keyboard more regular (only straight lines, etc.)07:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: the F keys would remain in that proposal?07:01
wpwrakkyak: with b), if should become easier to make custom keycaps. in the days of laser engraving, that can't be too difficult.07:01
kyakwpwrak: do you mean, all buttons are aligned in rows and columns?07:01
wolfspraulthere were a bunch of proposals, I just want to link to them from the Ya page for now07:01
zrafawolfspraul: IIRC he is a phd student.. and he is developing (with other students) one machine for poor countries which helps with education, very basic education. He showed me a machine doing that right now. And that machine has only 3 or 4 buttons and a speaker and mic07:02
zrafawolfspraul: no more07:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: the F# keys go away. the F# key function would still be available. F1 would be fn+Space+Q07:02
zrafawolfspraul: he is wanting to use a new machine with new software more powerful. And with screen nn has it would be better he told me. Moreover he likes the idea this hardware should be copyleft hardware07:03
wolfspraulok I linked to the pdf07:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: i need a better name for "fn" and "Fn", though. Fn = fn+Space would be the modifier that turns the top row into F# keys07:03
kyakwpwrak: oh, ok. yes, i think laser engaving is how it's usually done to make localized keyboards.. however, latin inscriptions have to be shifted a bit on the buttons07:03
zrafawolfspraul: he said me they already has around 20+ nn for this project, so I guess that he was serious about07:03
wpwrakkyak: rows and columns as much as possible, yes. if you look at http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/layout.pdf07:03
wpwrakkyak: you see that there are only few exceptions. and all the new ones (space, enter) just span multiple single key cells07:04
wolfspraulwpwrak: but the space for the F keys would still be there, you just want to keep that empty?07:04
wpwrakkyak: i left the cursor "diamond" for compatibility reasons. wouldn't mind scrapping that one, too.07:04
zrafawolfspraul: if they already has 20+ nns then they are really working on that maybe. ANd of course, all his idea is for his phd. The big problem I saw is they do not have enought software skills, because he was doing me a lot of very basic software development questions, like "should I use gtk or sdl?". So I guessed that they are just starting07:05
wolfspraulyour pdf only has 5 rows, but the ben keyboard has 6 rows (including F keys)07:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: i would cover it with plastic. the ya would have a new case, right ? :)07:05
kyakwpwrak: looking at it.. i guess there is a reason for not making lines straight07:05
kyakwpwrak: i guess it's for easier typing07:05
kyakwpwrak: ok, your layout leaves no space for putting of localized letters :)07:06
kyakmaybe at least have some common symbols, like euro or umlauts?07:06
wpwrakkyak: my layout actually leaves a lot of space :) i don't use any fn+symbol combinations. so if you need more glyphs, you can start assigning these07:06
wpwrakkyak: if you just need different glyphs, move some of the existing ones07:07
zrafawolfspraul: but well, for the requirements he needs I guessed that they needs a specific software for nn, able to record audio, play audio, show on screen some messages and stuff. I was thinking that he has a really great project, with a lot of nns for him and students, and finally, if we can help him with software side his foundation or whatever would buy surely a lot of nns to be real the project on poor countries.07:07
tuxbrainwpwrak: the anwers was too long mail please ... where is the gerber file? lol07:07
wpwrakkyak: (umlauts) that's a software problem :) if you need umlauts occasionally, make them dead keys. so "ae" becomes " followed by a07:08
kyakwpwrak: most of the buttons have two symbols, some have three. do you think there is enough space to put 1 or 2 more symbols?07:08
zrafawolfspraul: Also, his project is not like OLPC .. no, they need a really basic machine. In fact, currently he showed me the current hardware being used. And that is just a tiny machine with just 3 buttons, nomore.07:08
wpwraktuxbrain: oh, you just forwarded the mail. you're brutal ;-)07:08
wpwraktuxbrain: i hope you also sent him this one: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/edge.pdf07:09
kyakwpwrak: i don't mean from the software side. i mean, literally looking at keyboard and seeing what you are hgoing to type07:09
tuxbrainyes I have send a summarized mail with gerber, mesures, edge, and dri...07:09
wolfspraultuxbrain: werner's mail is highly unusual07:11
wolfspraulthis is not how the industry works, and how a 100 EUR business can be dealt with. let's see what they do :-)07:11
wolfspraulin the end that ubb is so brutally simple, you either just do it right away, or forget about it07:12
wolfspraul(I'm talking about the pcb maker, not you)07:12
tuxbrainyeah :)07:12
wpwrakkyak: are dead keys pretty straightforward ? probably cleaner than having a ' somewhere that's just a ', and then another ' that's an accent. or a bunch of accented characters scattered all over the place. i mean for the "default" keyboard.07:12
wolfspraulwe have time to dwell over those things with ridiculous over-thinking over-engineering practices07:12
wolfspraulhardware and manufacturing is all about economics, not technology07:13
wolfspraultake the milkymist one rc2 run for example07:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: to be honest, my mail wasn't meant for sending to the factory "as is". maybe the production part. but pcb fabs normally don't care about why and how you'd use it ;-)07:13
wolfspraulthe magic is not that 34 boards out of 40 pass 100%, the magic is that all the work on the smt side was done for 40 USD / piece07:13
wolfspraulwpwrak: oh sure, I know. that's what I'm saying.07:14
wolfspraulhardware/manufacturing is brutal, every minute disappears and every penny needs to be made _NOW_, or never. it's not software where you can get the rewards later.07:14
wolfspraulthe factory will look at your mail like a message from another planet07:15
wolfspraulsome alien culture07:15
kyakwpwrak: i'm talking about layout switching. And thus having at least two layouts engraved on buttons (like in the link i gave above). Btw, why is curly/square brackets arrangement so strange? (not like on PC keyboard)07:15
wolfspraulin China/Taiwan there would simply be no reply at all07:15
wpwrakkyak: (braces) i think i started to run out of buttons :)07:16
kyakwpwrak: i mean the order. Opened and closed braces are usually near each other07:17
wpwrakkyak: i wanted the symbols normally on the top row to be more or less at the usual places. alas, our rows are not long enough for the upper right corner which has a lot of non-letter symbols on the pc keyboard07:18
wpwrakkyak: oh. i was following the existing ben design there. no strong preference on my part07:18
kyakah, ok07:19
wpwrakzrafa: where are they deploying these devices ?07:19
wpwrakkyak: one could also make a case for reordering things in the Tab and Esc rows. e.g., move " and ' to the right and everything else a bit to the left.07:20
wpwrakkyak: for localized keyboards, i would try to make it so easy to produce them that one could just order them along with the ben. either as a pack or maybe as ben + one additional design.07:21
zrafawpwrak: let me find some links07:22
wpwrakkyak: e.g., you could commit your whatever keyboard design in some ya-keyboards project. then it gets a bit of review to make sure it's technically correct. and then it could just become a choice in the shop. when someone orders, say, ya with klingon, they take a ya-generic box, put an empty keyboard into the laser engraver, run the klingon.keycaps job, put the klingon keyboard into the box as well, and off with it.07:23
kyakwpwrak: very cool :) easily replaceble keyboard designs07:24
wpwrakkyak: may not be possible to implement this on one leap (e.g., you'd need engraving capabilities close to the warehouse), but i think this should be a longer-term goal07:24
kyakwpwrak: yeah, then one could say instead of "take notes on the go" - "take notes in native language on the go" :)07:25
wpwrakheh :)07:26
kyakbecause frankly speaking, typing with Ben in cyrillic is a pain.. unless you use phonetic layout07:26
kyakwhich is not very convenient07:26
kyakso i usually just show wonders of blind typing :)07:27
wpwrakkyak: (pain) yeah, i can imagine. (blind typing) wow07:27
wpwrakregarding dead keys, you could also create a "compose" key that would work as  compose + sequence, e.g.,  compose e =  or compose = e  for Euro07:28
wpwrakso dead keys don't have to be dead keys all the time. depending on how frequently you use them07:28
kyakyup, i know this07:28
kyakwpwrak: (rows straight) this is really questionable if such buttons layout will make typing easier.. i think the rows are even shifted on all qwerty smartphones07:29
wpwrakkyak: you mean the columns. yeah, hard to say. but it's the most space-efficient and flexible approach :)07:30
kyakcolumns, sure :)07:31
wpwrakkyak: e.g., you could (probably - needs verifying) implement my Enter and Space keys with two standard key slots07:31
wpwrakkyak: so if someone needs more buttons, they could shrink space and enter07:31
kyaksome keys can be 1.5 size. .then you could still be space efficient07:31
wpwrakkyak: only if you have two next to each other. and then you'd have an ambiguous middle position.07:32
wpwrakkyak: if you start shifting rows by fractional positions, you lose buttons07:33
wpwrakkyak: well, potential buttons. you could shift my Esc...Enter row and lose nothing, at the cost of no longer being able to shrink Enter07:33
kyakwpwrak: for example, make Enter 1.5 size, and align its row right. then all buttons will be shifted07:33
kyakmaybe 1.75 even07:34
wpwraki'm not sure the shifting really matters so much. the keyboard is quite small, so you won't have many fingers on it anyway07:34
kyakyou'll only know when you try :)07:34
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak :  the guy who will buy 500+ bens (I write that so you read what I write :) ) is working/phd at itc4d (http://www.ict4d.org.uk/). His project is : "Open Platform - Offline Mobile Learning for ICT4D : Using open hardware/software - delivering mobile learning offline in a developing country, considering the poor information infrastructure, unavailability of electricity and the problems of network connectivity, network latency, 07:35
wpwrakfor O(2) fingers use, a clean square matrix works quite well.07:35
wpwrakzrafa: yes ! finally someone who won't ask for wifi !!! ;-)07:35
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : he was asking me a lot about how to write sdl or gtk applications for nn.07:35
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : http://www.research.tvu.ac.uk/staffprofiles/view_profile.aspx?email=Sujan.Shrestha@pilot.tvu.ac.uk07:36
wpwrakkyak: (square matrix) e.g., the OQO 01 and OQO 01+ have that. works beautifully. actually one of the best small keyboards i know.07:36
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : that ^ was his web page. He has some blog which I do not find useful : http://offlinemobile.blogspot.com/2010/11/jlime-for-nanonote.html07:36
kyakwpwrak: i have to believe you. I didn't use small keyboards a lot07:36
wpwrakkyak: http://mobileoffice.about.com/od/tabletpcs/ss/oqomodelo1tpc_8.htm07:37
wpwrakkyak: here's a better picture: http://www.tomsguide.com/us/is-the-world,review-661-5.html07:37
tuxbraintell him to be free to talk wit us :) , if he pretends to buy 500+ he is actully rise to the status of "friend of soul" or blood-brother or his wife if he want :)07:37
wpwrakkyak: i think what helps a lot is to keep the layout clean. many small devices have horribly crowded keyboard. so whenever you don't remember a key, you're lost for a while.07:38
kyakwpwrak: replaceble/customized keyboards is a key. I liked this idea a lot!07:39
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : they already have around 20+ nns for their project07:39
tuxbrainok I know him :)07:40
tuxbrainor at least one of his dudes on his university.07:40
wpwraktuxbrain: already have that "20 bens" order hanging at the wall ? :)07:40
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : so that is no just an idea.. I guess that they are working on that. They want to do something with nn to replace another machine. Let me find some link of that machine (which is currently being used on some countries for offline learning)07:41
tuxbrainwith caoba frame and specialy lighted :)07:41
kyakhm..i guess if i need the second Ben i need to hurry before indians buy it all!07:42
zrafatuxbrain: wolfspraul : wpwrak : I guess that they will not but 500+ nns if they do not do anything with the current ones. For his questions he was very far. For example, he needs just to know how to write a tiny application for nn (using sdl, gtk, whatever) to show a menu with 3 options. Or how to record and play sound. Simple stuff. SO I guess that they need some help on software side before their project sucess and they buy 1xxxx nns.07:43
zrafaFor his questions= From his questions07:43
wpwrakzrafa: they should talk to the CS department of their university. universities are a place where great quantities of cheap slave labour are readily available. turn those things into semester projects. post them to the CS students. voila.07:45
wpwrakwell, he is actually CS, isn't he ? so, even easier07:46
wpwrakyeah. computing and technology07:46
zrafawpwrak: I think so. But well, I would like to bring up again his name and that he has a project which would be from my point of view the the most important use case for nn. As offline learning machine. And with that, the idea about he/university/foundation could need 500+ bens for that :)07:47
wpwrakzrafa: oh, i agree. i'm just thinking of the "what does he need from our side" case07:48
zrafawpwrak: at least, he is trying to use the nn for something real, no just to play music and use bc07:48
kyakbtw, i nice idea to have simple "hello world" guides for sdl/gtk/qt development in wiki07:48
zrafawpwrak: and also he is not asking for wifi(c) for his project.07:48
wpwrakzrafa: on sw, he shouldn't need much. maybe he could invite you to come over for a week or two to give a seminar ? :) introduction to jlime, gui programming, all that07:49
wpwrakzrafa: london in late spring/summer wouldn't be too bad07:49
zrafawpwrak: If he will buy many nns I go free :)07:49
wpwrakzrafa: travel money and equipment are different items in the budget ;-)07:50
zrafawpwrak: but well, I was encouraging him to talk more on this or jlime channel.07:51
zrafawpwrak: and also, I have not had news from him since december07:52
wpwrakzrafa: maybe they're busy coding ;) well, couldn't hurt to ping him then, just to see how things are going07:52
kyakzrafa: according to logs, he has been here 2010-11-01 (Monday):07:57
wpwrakkyak: nothing escapes the all-seeing eye of qi-bot ;-)08:00
kyakwpwrak: qi-bot and you :)08:02
kyakactually, i suggested to have stats/seens here long ago.. would have been a useful feature08:02
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. maybe they do not have time to talk :)08:05
wpwrakkyak: maybe send wolfgang a patch ? ideally not just a patch for the ever growing to do list ;-)08:06
Action: wpwrak imagines wolfgang's work environment. some small dark room, a simple table, a laptop, a lamp. this is where all his work is. the room has door to the rest of the apartment, also small and austere. and another door. the other door leads to a multistory complex of breathtaking technology. like the "plant" in "forbidden planet". that's the storage system where he keeps the to do list.08:09
kyakwpwrak: i could do this myself, it's not that hard. Only need access to the bot :) or maybe a separate bot, to live on fidelio08:09
wpwrakkyak: you should ask wolfgang then. he's quite open with giving access to things08:10
kyakwpwrak: sure,08:13
kyakwolfspraul: what do you think about having a stats/seen bot on fidelio?08:14
wpwrakgrmbl. this is a week of tuesdays. monday, i felt as if it was already tuesday. today, i feel as if it should still be tuesday.08:28
kyakhm.. i was about to sat that it IS tuesday today!08:31
kyak*to say08:31
wolfspraulkyak: I'm not a friend of bots, but you surely can do it yourself, if you like08:45
wolfspraulemail me your public key and I get you root access on the server08:45
wolfspraulafter that, if you make configuration changes to eggdrop, please update the server_setup document08:46
kyakwolfspraul: if it is fidelio (build host), i'm already there08:46
wolfspraulyou can also tell me what you did and I update it, if the formatting is unusual for you08:46
wolfspraulI don't know what you plan exactly, but I hope you can just configure the existing eggdrop to do this as well08:46
wolfspraulit might be as easy as a few lines in the config file08:46
wolfspraulfidelio is a pure 'cache' buildhost type machine, no backup08:46
kyakif the modules are isntalled already, then yes, it's the matter of config files08:47
wolfspraulall of the active and data generating (i.e. backed up) stuff is running on turandot08:47
wolfspraulfidelio just to offload some load, schhist, buildhost, etc.08:47
kyakok then, i'll send you the pub key and document the changes08:48
wolfspraulok if your key is on fidelio, I can just copy it over08:48
wolfspraulwell I have it already, let me check...08:48
kyakyes, this would work ,too08:48
kyak(copying the key from fidelio)08:48
wolfspraulok try turandot.qi-hardware.com08:49
wolfspraulthe current eggdrop setup is documented here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#eggdrop08:50
wolfspraulsebastien may have made some changes to log #milkymist, without updating the server setup document08:50
wolfspraulI'm quite radical with this kind of changes - next time I get to it it will be reverted to the state of the document08:50
wolfspraulI have managed servers far too long to accept server setups where even 1 tiny bit of configuration setting is not documented.08:51
wolfspraulin other words - if you run into some config that is not documented like that, don't hesitate to revert to the documentation08:51
wolfspraulthe documentation is right08:51
wolfspraulwhen you are done, either you or me can update the doc08:51
wolfspraulto avoid that next time I upgrade something, your changes are lost08:51
kyakwolfspraul: i'm there :)08:52
kyakok, got your point about documenting08:53
wolfspraul(to be nice, I will try to update the documentation and not rip out stuff done by others without documentation on purpose. but my patience in understanding undocumented stuff is limited)08:53
wolfspraulif it's still in use, whoever did it will speak up fairly quickly, and then it can be redone and documented properly as well :-)08:54
kyaksure, sure :)08:54
kyakbtw, i think i will follow the same path next time i reinstall my server08:54
wolfspraulI've tried to use automated ways like a diff from the installed baseline.08:55
wolfspraulbut mostly a simple text file is by far the best way to document what was installed, why this or that setting was changed, etc.08:55
wolfspraulthe only downside is that it requires some discipline in keeping the real server and the text file in sync08:56
kyakcurrently, i use rpm facilities for that.. it can track changed configuration files08:56
wolfspraulsure, that is also good08:56
wolfspraulit could make the documentation shorter08:56
dvdki've been using SVN for managing server configs.08:56
dvdkone Makefile w/ 'make install' to update the system config to the version in the SVN dir08:57
wolfspraulthere you go, another option :-)08:57
dvdkmakes it easy to test changes: just install the config locally and test08:57
dvdkmany subdirs, for different programs etc.  so I  can partially install updated stuff08:57
dvdkplus: SVN log replaces all your other documentation :)08:58
kyakpretty good, yes08:58
dvdkand... you easily see what's important.  i hate having to grep or search through /etc/ to find out what parts are non-standard08:58
kyakwolfspraul: ok, the gseen/stats modules are not there, will have to build them manually09:02
wolfspraulhmm, really not there?09:04
wolfspraulit's a standard debian eggdrop package, no?09:04
wolfspraulmaybe just install a few tcl files?09:04
kyaknah, these are third party modules09:06
kyakdon't worry, i'll handle it :)09:06
wolfspraulha, since you are near there, can you also add a capability for the bot to maintain a list of nicks that are not logged?09:16
wolfsprauland a way to query the bot for the list?09:16
wolfspraulor maybe if that's not safe at least every nick should be able to query its own logging status privately, and enable/disable09:16
wolfspraulI would go for an opt-out model, but if someone doesn't like the logging they can send a message to the bot and exclude themselves.09:17
kyakthis could make logs useless at all09:22
kyaklike some people could be speaking with themselves :)09:23
kyakor the other way around, the missing messages could be reversed-engineered09:23
kyakin fact, i have some experience with eggdrops/tcl, so if you think about some cool things, it is possible to do that09:23
wolfspraulit's totally up to you09:25
kyaklet's start with stats/seen thing09:25
mirkokyak: oh, yeah - indeed10:03
mirkokyak: however that's the way to do it then10:04
mirkokyak: (referring to the changes to qstardict you made)10:04
rjeffriesmirko: forgive me, which of the two mirkos are you? ;)10:08
wpwrakrjeffries: the other one ;-)10:10
rjeffriesI knew someone whould be a SMARTASS <grin>10:11
rjeffrieswpwrak you NEVER dissapoint10:11
rjeffriesis there now a ~single~ document of UBB PCB fab specs one might send to a pcfab "consultant?"10:17
kristianpaulask tuxbrain ;-)10:21
kristianpaulzrafa: i really want to see the gui concept this phd stunend have in mind10:21
tuxbrainI had just send the gerber , the measures, the edge and the drill file10:21
wpwraktuxbrain: did you also specify the board material, thickness, and surface finish ? particularly the thickness is important10:22
wpwrak(0.8 mm)10:22
kristianpaulzrafa: actually i know some people from sugar labs, i wonder if he is linked or aware of this kind of sofware projects related to learning process, i really want hear his comments about it10:23
wpwrakrjeffries: if you want to send a lot of stuff, you'd send the "Industrially producing UBB" section. maybe remove things that are clearly background, like the disclaimer.10:23
wpwrakrjeffries: (plus the drill file)10:23
wpwrakrjeffries: if you want to send something a pcb fab can use directly, without the consultant making detail decisions for you, you'd read through the mail and process the decisions as they are outlined. then either pass them on, or just prepare an answer and wait if they need one.10:25
kristianpaulzrafa: i agree bc and play music is not the _real_world_ use case10:25
wpwrakrjeffries: wait and see has the benefit that you won't over-specify the board, possibly requesting details you don't actually care about but that make it harder to produce it10:26
wpwraktuxbrain: (board thickness) perfect10:26
rjeffriesis tuxbrain awake? I'll be damned. ;)10:27
rjeffriestuxbarin, a serious question, sir: if you produce UBB, and sell in europe for price X (tbd)10:28
rjeffrieshow hard will it be to ship to USA?10:28
tuxbrainI bet the shipping cost will not compesate unless you want some big qty10:29
tuxbrainbut we will find out if you wish I must move10:29
rjeffriesI recently had good luck on mail foorm USA to Sweden10:31
rjeffriescheap and fast10:31
wpwrakrjeffries: is the idea for your "pcb fab consultant" to choose the fab and communicate with them ? or to advise you ? or do you mean that the "consultant" is actually the fab's person who accepts new orders ?10:32
rjeffriestuxbrain I look forward to you producing UBB. prolly will be able to purchase in quantity from Span and make available to my peeps10:32
wpwrakrjeffries: for the quanitities you need for a reasonable price point, shipping shouldn't be such a big deal. after all, people order prototype pcbs in china.10:33
rjeffrieswpwrak "consultant" was a big word for a simple idea. a friend who has designed a VDSL2 box for10:33
wpwrakrjeffries: "consultant" ah, okay. just send him the two mails then and tell him to skip all the stuff at the top of the first mail10:34
rjeffriesknows a guy who has intimate knowledge of pcb fab. since I have cursory knowledge only10:34
wpwrakrjeffries: (or read it only if he's got time to kill ;-)10:34
rjeffriesI hope that as a friend he will give me a freebie 15 minutes of advice10:34
rjeffriesI will start out with only teling him the helicopter view10:35
rjeffriessize of pcb10:35
rjeffriesnumber of layers10:35
rjeffriescritical dimensions10:35
rjeffriesnumber if vias10:35
wpwrakrjeffries: what is is :)10:35
rjeffriesnot sure what that means sorry. (I am serious)10:36
kristianpaulrjeffries: try filling the quote form at batchpcb.com later take care of details10:36
wpwrakrjeffries: that it's a little board that goes into those receptacles that are marketed as "microsd card holders"10:37
wpwrakkristianpaul: batchpcb only seem to do 1.6 mm boards10:37
kristianpaulrjeffries: no need to know what means just copy and paste values10:37
kristianpaulwpwrak: ouch10:37
rjeffrieskristianpaul I actually do know what most of it means, but this is not my area of expertise10:37
rjeffriesI am mainly a wanker ;)10:38
rjeffriesI'll make a few calls/emails today10:38
kristianpauljust give values and pay that all what they care about you as a customer10:39
kristianpaulclaim later !10:39
Action: wpwrak wonders what that "career" ladder wuold be - wanker, fucker, pimp ? :)10:39
rjeffrieswpwrak part oof carer requires being a PITA to bright creative visionary risk-takers like wolfsproul10:43
rjeffriesI hav eexhausted that phase, it takes too much of my LIMITED mental energy. ;)10:44
kristianpaulhwo old are you then?10:45
zrafakristianpaul: they are wanting to replace a machine which does not do anything :P.. so they are not designing a GUI for users10:45
kristianpaul(sorry for asking personal info)10:45
kristianpaulzrafa: gui -> buttons?10:45
zrafakristianpaul: they just need a machine which does the same than before.. (the before machine just play words, and records sound)10:45
zrafakristianpaul: yes10:45
kristianpaulzrafa: is not that tooo expreme ?10:45
zrafa3 buttons10:45
zrafakristianpaul: well, of course. If they are going to use the nn then they want to use the screen at least (he told me)10:46
zrafakristianpaul: previous machines does not have screen10:46
kristianpaulzrafa: phewww10:46
rjeffrieskristiuanpaul was question for me?10:46
kristianpaulrjeffries: yes10:46
rjeffriesI am (are you sitting down)???10:46
rjeffriesold enough to be either your father or grandfather. how old are you sir? <smile>10:47
kristianpaulwell, i'm 2310:47
rjeffriesif I spound young, you have given me a GREAT comliment10:48
kristianpaulyou do,10:48
rjeffriesin another 20 years you will be the age of my son. ;)10:48
rjeffriesI suspect (with high degree of certantity) I am the LEAST young person who follows the qi-hardware community10:49
rjeffrieskristianpaul, you j=have mad emy day. I am serious. yes I am playful, but it hides a serious level10:49
rjeffriess/made emy/made my/10:49
kristianpaulzrafa: ah thats the machine to record/play sound?, i remenber  now from #jlime before10:50
kristianpaulrjeffries: You own a Ben right?10:50
rjeffriesI suggest wolfsproul write new rules that nobody under og, 40 yrs of age is allowed to participate10:50
rjeffrieskristianpaul now you as a SENSITIVE question10:51
rjeffriesno, I do not personally own a Ben. a close friend bought one because I showed it]10:51
rjeffriesto our linus users group10:51
rjeffriesI can use his when if I need to10:51
rjeffriesbut I will buy at some point10:52
rjeffriesI am a person who is NOT the deep hacker Ben appeals (mainly) to10:52
larsc"linus user group" :)10:52
rjeffriesI have waited for software stability and functionalityu10:52
rjeffriess/linus/Linux  I make many typos, I confess10:52
kristianpaullarsc: ;)10:53
rjeffriesI have offered a group buy to my friends, too soon to see. only two people say yes so far10:53
wpwrakrjeffries: (age of consent for qi-hw at 40) i don't see wolfgang do this for a while :)10:53
kristianpaulrjeffries: you shoukd buy one or own it not for a while, you feed back will be wellcome10:54
rjeffriesI figured wolfsproul at 30 something10:54
kristianpaulrjeffries: as you seems to care in sofware end user side isnt?10:54
wpwrakrjeffries: which would make it a self-excluding move :)10:54
rjeffrieskristianpaul I am close to buying one that is why I attemp to organize a group buy10:55
kristianpaulrjeffries: are you in the USA?10:55
rjeffrieskristianpaul I care about software yes. bt I have a passion for sensors/actuators etc and see Ben as a cool little "main node" for such a system10:55
kristianpaulrjeffries: if, already talked with djbclark ? freedom-included?10:56
rjeffriesyes live in California USA10:56
kristianpaulrjeffries: do you have an arduino?10:56
rjeffriesI know of djbclark. at one point he was going to become distributor (sorta kinda) for sharism10:57
rjeffriesI do not know if he did10:57
rjeffriesI have easy access to arduino10:57
rjeffriesdo not own yet10:58
rjeffriesby the way I am a software guy sorta kinda who loves hardware but is not an EE10:58
kristianpaulare you really interested in own something. you said you like sensors/actuators but you dint have even an arduino?10:59
rjeffriesBen software is now getting ti a level of maturity that I will invest $125 (with shipping)10:59
kristianpaulwow !10:59
kristianpaulgoood :)10:59
mirkorjeffries: Mirko Vogt :)11:00
rjeffrieskristianpaul God bless you, but i do not need to defend what I like or do. I have a wide range of activities. I write a book, I publish a newsletter, I am an avide photographer I even have a REAL darkroom (not used much but now and then)11:00
rjeffrieshello Mr Vogt, You have ben missed on the qi list. By me. Nobody else even noticed you had dissapeared. [smile]11:01
rjeffriesno I also have not ordered a Milkymist. I will someday. not now. ;) It is a very excitity project11:02
mirkorjeffries: yeah, i have been quite busy an didn't follow the list regularly :/11:03
kristianpaulok tell us when you got your Ben, i really want read your comments when having it around, not just borrow ;-)11:03
mirkorjeffries: will do so in the evening, after finishing my post about the rfm12 <-> NN stuff11:03
rjeffriesmirko, I was kidding. understood.11:03
kristianpaulmirko: rfm12 !! :D11:04
rjeffriesoh yes wolfsproul did mention you had onebles and were playing with HopeRF of his Frankenca11:04
mirkoappetizer: https://foo.mirko.in/nanonote_rfm12.jpg :)11:04
mirkocontrolling radio sockets11:05
rjeffriess/Frankenca/Franken-cables/  (8:10 to cable done as "street job"11:05
rjeffriesdot in  .in is .... India? what area?11:05
mirkorjeffries: yeah, india - sth. available  as mirko.TLD was difficult to get :)11:06
steve|mmy dns doesn't seem to resolve that hostname11:06
rjeffriesit worked for me but giot warning abut untrusted site certificate11:06
rjeffrieswhat an idiot I am. .in does not mean YOU live in India. I think you live in Europe.11:07
wpwrakmirko: nice :) no antenna ?11:07
mirkohttps:// /
mirkowpwrak: soldered in onto the back of the board11:07
wpwrakmirko: aah ! how far does it go ?11:08
mirkowpwrak: it's just for testing - not optimized for best transfer11:09
mirkowpwrak: works in my room so far, however if you use a lambda/2 antenna you get quite more out of it11:09
rjeffriesMirko, that is a thing of beauty. more or less. ;)11:09
mirkowpwrak: but that's 17cm which i didn't wanna take with me all the time moving around11:09
rjeffriesso mirko do you already have it talking to light switches etc?11:10
mirkorjeffries: yep11:10
mirkorjeffries: more or less finished :)11:10
rjeffriesCOOL BEANS11:11
mirkowill write a summary / post about it11:11
mirkoand publish it in the evening11:11
mirkowith all the urls to the driver module / userspace software / uis i wrote11:11
rjeffriesNow we need to get this info to Jean Paul at JeeLabs he has a LOT of boards that will be interesting11:12
wpwrakmirko: (room without a proper antenna) that's a good start11:12
rjeffriesalso he can promote Ben as a central point for his stuff.11:12
rjeffriesTHAT is why I have been urging that Tcl be wel supported11:12
rjeffriesbe is a cool dude. I have exchanged emails with him several times11:13
rjeffriesJean-Claude Wippler  JeeLabs  jcw@equi4.com Libes in Houten, a village near Utrecht in the middle of the Netherlands,11:14
larscwpwrak: mirko also as kernel patches for spi support on the mmc pins, so i guess that should be a good start for the uart board11:14
rjeffriesI am not positive he uses HopeRF, maybe a competing radio11:14
mirkowpwrak: it's just ASK, don't know how it behaves when transmitting via FM11:14
rohhey mirko11:15
mirkohey roh :)11:15
mirkoneed to grab some food now - didn't eat anything yet today :( - see ya later...11:16
wpwraklarsc: very good. does it handle handover from the mmc driver, too ?11:17
larsci don't think so11:17
mirkowpwrak: not yet, but shouldn't be too difficult11:17
larscyou can either bind the mmc or the spi driver11:17
mirkolarsc: i found some examples11:17
mirkolarsc: which act as wrappers11:18
mirkothey bind to the pins, but handle different devices11:18
mirkoanyway, i'm off for the next half an hour...11:18
zrafarjeffries: and are you telling that tcl does not work?11:34
rjeffrieszarfa I have asked on list (I do not have a Ben) and did not get a solid answer11:48
dvdkzrafa, rjeffries: what's the problenm with tcl?  you mean tcl on nanonote?11:51
lekernelthose little piezos are amazing... i'm sending half a watt into one, and it doesn't break and makes a nice vibration12:00
kyakmirko: no problem for me to do it in qt apps Makefiles.. i just don't understand why some qt apps need it, and some don;t12:00
kyakguess it depends on their .pro files...12:00
lekernelinteresting to notice that it handles low frequencies pretty well, e.g. you could get better bass in a laptop using them12:00
lekernel(that's some 200 volts p/p...)12:05
kristianpaulwhat do you need that piezos, generate sound?12:09
lekernelactuate a tuning rod into a DRO to modulate its frequency12:10
lekernelbut i'm also happily surprised with the sound quality you get by pressing said piezo into a hard and large surface12:11
lekerneli'm using my computer soundcard to generate the waveforms, which then feeds a computer speaker amplifier with the speaker replaced with the piezo and a power supply transformer mounted backwards to adapt the impedance a bit (and step up the voltage)12:12
lekernelso I can easily play music as well12:12
lekernelthe DRO thingy is part of a cheap doppler radar module (www.edparadis.com/radar)  and I want to see what I can do with it12:14
lekernelideally http://www.mit.edu/~gr20603/Dr.%20Gregory%20L.%20Charvat%20Projects/$240%20High%20Res%20Rail%20SAR.html but I don't know if I can get this far12:15
lekernelprobably not :)12:16
lekernelat least by staying under 50E, radar module included, and simple manipulations12:16
wpwrakhmm ... that sound system would be like in some 1970 sci-fi movies then. alien planet. mysterious crystals everywhere.12:17
lekerneloh well :)12:20
lekernelthose aren't unusual, are they?12:20
wpwrakoh, pretty standard indeed12:21
lekernelyup. amazing they handle 100 volts12:21
lekerneland I don't know the limit, my amplifier saturates before the piezo breaks...12:22
wpwrakwith 100 V, arcing becomes a possibility ...12:23
lekernelyeah, but apparently they don't arc12:23
lekernelotoh there is the complete layer of ceramic which is half a millimeter thick between the electrodes12:24
lekernelso it was worth testing12:24
wpwrak0.5 mm should be plenty of separation for 100 V. that is, as long as the ceramic mixture doesn't arc much better than air.12:26
mirkokyak: OpenWrt passed env variables to all C/C++ sources since they are generic12:36
mirkokyak: qmake however does use some in a different manner (as e.g. AR)12:36
mirkoso i renamed them all to TARGET_* to avoid further confusion12:36
mirkoand tell qmake it should explicitly use stuff defined by TARGET_*12:37
Aylamy dingoo resumed just fine12:38
Aylaafter a ~20h suspend12:38
kyakmirko: ok then12:38
Aylaso apparently, we don't have that bug :p12:38
dvdkmirko: kyak: if you use the qmake that's part of the staging_dir_host, shouldn't all variables be set up correctly?12:39
dvdki.e. qmake remembers the settings that it got when cross-version of Qt itself was compiled12:40
mirkodvdk: they should, kyak however is doing some stuff manually instead of using qmake.mk of OpenWrt12:40
mirkokyak: any reason btw?12:40
mirkokyak: best case is doing so as simple as it's done in the NanoMap Makefile12:41
mirkodefine Build/Configure12:42
mirko»···$(call Build/Configure/Qmake,nanomap)12:42
mirkowhich creates a Makefile from nanomap.pro inside the src dir12:42
dvdkmirko: didn't even know openwrt had qmake support.12:42
kyakmirko: you can check the Makefile, i call the Qmake12:43
kyakhowever, not all paths are exported correctly12:43
kyakor exported at all12:43
kyakanyway, i found these workaround to work12:44
dvdkyeah, spend quite some time rgrepp'ing over the openwrt .mk files last time I tried to port a cmake project.  strange that i didn't hit the Qmake.mk at that time12:44
mirkokyak: we should try to make it generic i think12:44
kyakmirko: definitely we should12:44
rjeffries_speaking of piezos: I used to work at a p;ace that made areally  range of piezo devices. including the stuff used in submarines to locate various things such as other submarines12:44
mirkoevery change which is an improvement and does not break any other qt project i commit into OpenWrt immediatly12:44
rjeffries_the whole area of transducers is fascinating. manufacturing process is almost black magic12:45
kristianpaulother piezo uses is the coming diy reprap inkjet tech http://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet12:47
dvdkmirko: kyak: any objections against adding a cmake.mk to openwrt/include, then.  could simplify the plplot/Makefile quite a lot.  also i have some more cmake based projects on my todo list12:47
kristianpaulAyla: good for youu !12:47
kristianpaulbad for us...12:47
Aylakristianpaul: well, maybe it demonstrates that it is not a hardware bug12:48
kyakdvdk: cmake.mk is already backported to backfire.. just waiting for xiangfu or someone else to merge it into our branch12:48
Ayladoes it occur every time? Maybe I was just lucky12:48
kyakneed the git super powers for that12:48
mirkodvdk: if it works i'd like to commit it to OpenWrt upstream12:48
dvdkkyak: ok, then all the headaches were for nothing :)12:48
mirkoso we reduce the diff between OpenWrt and the qi-branch12:48
kyakmirko: is already commited12:48
kristianpaulAyla: still not demostrate as dingux have different IC12:48
mirkokyak: i meant the cmake stuff12:49
kristianpaulAyla: but same kernel  !12:49
kristianpaulseems to be hw bug...12:49
Aylait's not the same kernel12:49
kristianpaulfrom our side12:49
Aylaand the nanonote is not jz4740 based?12:49
mirkokyak: oh, sry - overread...12:49
kyakhere it is12:49
mirkowasn't aware of any cmake.mk either12:49
kyakand we can get it right away12:49
rjeffries_Ayla does dingoo have a microSD slot a.k.a 8:10 in Ben-talk12:49
kristianpaul4720 Ayla12:50
dvdkkykyak: mirko: ok 'll try it out during the next sw porting timeslice12:50
Aylarjeffries_: ehrmm, sorry?12:50
mirkogotta go - bye12:50
rjeffries_Ayla I assume you hav eth Dingo ??12:50
kristianpaulAyla: what is different in your kernel? you dont follow upstream?12:50
rjeffries_what interfaces does it have? is there a microSD slot like Ben12:51
Aylafor most of the drivers, we do12:51
Aylaand it's a miniSD slot12:51
lekernelrjeffries_: if I understand it correctly, piezos are also used for moving the probe in tunelling microscopes12:51
lekernelamazing they can get so precise12:51
lekerneland still relatively cheap (only hundreds of euros for a suitable actuator)12:52
rjeffries_lekernel piezos are very widly used. Ultrasound, and also cheap BBQ lighters12:52
kyakbtw, thanks to David and his awesome job with svgalib, look what a nice app we now got: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications#links12:52
lekernelhttp://www.e-basteln.de/index_m.htm and others12:53
rjeffries_I got to see the ceramic factory that made a wide range of piezo based devices. it was next door to my office12:53
dvdkkyak: cool, so this is svgalib based?12:53
rjeffries_which "David" is this pls?12:53
dvdkalready had dillo or sth similar on my todo list.  so that won't be neccessary any more12:54
xMffnetsurf sounded interesting12:54
kristianpaulkyak: thats links?? wowow12:55
dvdkrjeffries_: david k.12:55
kristianpaulfinally html on the nanonote !12:55
kyakyup, it's svga-based links212:55
dvdki.e. me12:55
kyakand working hell good12:55
mthkristianpaul: this is the opendingux kernel: https://github.com/mthuurne/opendingux-kernel12:55
mthit's very similar to qi-kernel, but not exactly the same12:55
qi-bot[commit] kyak: links2: add gmenu2x icon http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/b891feb12:57
rjeffries_I assume one or more of you guys are fluent in grep or awk?12:57
rjeffries_don't everyone raise your hands all at same time12:58
Action: dvdk has written lengthly sed scripts12:59
dvdkrjeffries_: so that should mostly translate to grep12:59
rjeffries_dvdk indeed12:59
Action: kristianpaul hides13:00
kyakok, it haz stats/gseen noqw13:00
rjeffries_dvdk I am NOt flunet and am not at this moment using Linux. I know I am an EVIL man13:01
kristianpaul!google nanonote13:01
rjeffries_dvdk accepting that sad fact, would yoy hack a quick script and run this log through it and only print lines conatining http: or https: so I can find links easily13:02
kristianpaulkyak: what else it can do now?13:02
dvdkrjeffries_: you mean 'grep 'http:\|https:' ?13:03
rjeffries_qi-bot? I thought wolfspraul was asleep for sure13:03
kyakkristianpaul: nothing else :)13:03
rjeffries_whatever I do not have grep avail right now and need to chase down links in this long log13:03
rjeffries_dvdl PLEASE do not tell anybody that at this moment I am using a Vista lappie I would be so embarassed13:04
rjeffries_and wolfspraul may permanently ban me, I dunno13:05
dvdkrjeffries_: there's a cure: install cygwin :)13:05
Mauro_Rjaja ... u r using Vista ....13:05
rjeffries_I have other wasy Vbox with Ubuntu and it dual boots Ubuntu so if nobody will take 30 sec to do this favor I will do it later13:06
kyakwpwrak: if you are not seeing yourself in top10, you can use !top20 :)13:06
kristianpaultop 10 words or niicks?13:06
kristianpaulcan i avoid nicks?13:06
kyakwhat do you mean?13:06
rjeffries_Mauro Vista is not the horrible OS everyone assumes but in Microsoft land Wui 7 is far better13:06
wpwrakkyak: the s/foo/bar/ is missing ! :)13:07
wpwrakalmost ! ;-)13:07
kyakwpwrak is #1 in smileys13:07
wpwrakoh dear ;-)13:07
wpwrakdoes it recognize this one too ? (-:C13:07
kyakkristianpaul: if you mean not counting stats for specific user, it can be done13:08
rjeffries_what is argumanet to Top20??13:08
kristianpaulkyak: ah, i got , word count per nick, i tought was words in general top13:08
wpwraknice, it did !13:08
kyakwpwrak: set smileys ":-) :) ;) ;-) ^_^ :-D :-P :P =) ;D -)"13:08
kyakthis is the list :)13:08
rjeffries_so waht else can top20 ( ..) do?13:09
wpwrakhmm, then some messages must have crossed13:09
wpwrakthe word count really seems to be a nick count, though13:09
kyaka nick count?13:09
rjeffries_No more smiles for me13:10
rjeffries_oh my god13:10
kyak3. kyak(180) 3. kyak(182) - is word count!13:10
wpwrakkyak: a) top10/20 only show nicks. b) top20 stops after 12. there are certainly more than 12 different words in use here13:10
kristianpaulkristianpaul: kristianpaul kristianpaul13:10
kyakis word COUNT13:10
kyakper nick13:11
kristianpaulso confusing ;)13:11
kyak12 nicks, others didn't speak yet :L)13:11
wpwrakoooh. the number of words per nick ! now i get it13:11
rjeffries_that is totally AWEFUL13:11
wpwraki thought it was the frequency at which certain words appear on the channel13:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: me too13:11
kyakno, not like this13:11
rjeffries_I assume scope is current log only?13:11
kristianpaulthat will awesome (frequency at which certain words appear on the channel)13:11
wpwraklivetime of current qi-bot process ?13:12
wpwraklifetime even13:12
kyakkristianpaul: there is such thing. but it's cpu and memory intensive, so it's disabled13:12
kristianpaulkyak: oh yes please ;) poor server..13:12
rjeffries_oh but we do not know how long qi-bot has been alive unless he reports13:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: the ultimate goal is to burn all available system resources on such gimmicks ;-)13:12
rjeffries_how beefy is the server? just curious?13:13
kyakrjeffries_: the assumption is, that qi-bot is always online :)13:13
kristianpauli bet it even cant tun munin for it self ;P13:13
rjeffries_so I guess my dream would be that wolfspraul adds a gadegt to qi-bot that filters out links and shows them13:14
kyakshows where?13:15
rjeffries_maybe output goes to a different log of links13:15
kyakdo you mean, it speaks the title?13:15
kristianpaulkyak: really is thattoo cpu intensive? may be i can be run once a day with the backlog?13:15
rjeffries_simply filter the irc log and only display lines that contain http: or https:13:15
Mauro_Rrjeffries_: oh, I thought you were talking about the OS, sorry ...13:16
rjeffries_once a day yes not on demand!13:16
kyakkristianpaul: ok, let's see how it works with that and then we see if word frequency stats should be enabled13:16
kyakrjeffries_: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/search?q=http13:17
rjeffries_kyak so that was there all along?13:17
kyakrjeffries_: why don't you read the topic?13:18
rjeffries_holy crap. perfect just run it twice once pr http ahgain for https13:18
rjeffries_what topic kyak? I don not know what you are talking about O use smuxi as my client13:19
kyakok, you not IRC guy. the topic says:13:20
kyakCopyleft hardware - time is on our side |  public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs | Welcome and  please ask your questions...13:20
kristianpaulnote it said "last seen quitting #milkymist "13:49
kristianpaul!see Mauro_R13:51
kyakkristianpaul: sure, it sits in #milkymist, too13:52
kristianpaulyes it is14:07
kristianpaulir forgot that14:07
wpwrakkyak: total surveillance :)14:21
kyakwpwrak: s/qi-bot/qi-cop :)14:30
wpwrakkyak: now we just have to hide it and we'll have our own little secret police :)14:32
wpwrakrjeffries_: let's not forget jlime among the distros. it's probably the most polished in terms of end-user experience.14:33
wpwrakrjeffries_: a better link for atusb schematics would be http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/atusb/pdf_atusb.pdf14:34
wpwrakrjeffries_: that's the whole board, not just the USB side14:35
rjeffries_wpwrak. would you take my email, edit it then I can stand on your shoulders.14:42
rjeffries_I did not send to wolfspraul because he may not like what I am trying to do.14:42
rjeffries_I have already sent the email but will GLADY send a correcetd reworded even better more awesome email14:43
rjeffries_I do nt understand JLime. In general Ben shares with OpenMoko the :many distros" bessing and curse14:44
tuxbrainkyak: well in my old days of irc addict when I was young , the bot can give you special powers like kick and ban, I guess if qi-bot can do that but surelly ChanServ is the one that can do so14:45
wpwrakrjeffries_: jlime is an openembedded derivate. originally for the hp jornada, but has since been ported to other portable devices, including the ben nanonote14:45
kyaktuxbrain: sure bot can do these and many other things. For now it only has stats/seen powers :)14:46
wpwrakrjeffries_: thanks to openembedded, it has about ten times as many packages as openwrt. (not all of them are truly useful, of course - some exist but are just too big)14:46
tuxbrainno list of commands?14:47
wpwrakkyak: it could use an AI that detects when someone speaks badly about the bot and remembers it. then, sample the message timing in relation to message length. once you have a good correlation, wait for the moment just before a particularly long message would be sent. then kick :)14:47
rjeffries_wpwrak I had no idea re Jlime14:48
wpwraknot the unix way either14:48
wpwrakrjeffries_: zrafa did quite a lot of work to make it run nicely on the ben14:48
kyaktuxbrain: yeah, perhaps some basic help should be shown...14:48
rjeffries_tuxbrain when will your UBB pcbs be finished?14:48
tuxbrainit's fun becaus eit's true14:48
tuxbrainrjeffries_: well first they have to be quoted :)14:49
rjeffries_what is a short answer to how OpenERt Jlime and Debian compare on Ben14:49
kyakwpwrak: then we need to call it qi-bitch :)14:49
rohapples onions and potatos14:49
rjeffries_tivbrain I am just having a little fun. I thought you would have them done next week14:49
rohthings are much too complex for simple comparisons14:50
wpwrakrjeffries_: openwrt most compact, limited choice of packages. jlime large choice of packages. not sure how the two compare today in terms of user experience. jlime used to be far ahead but openwrt has tried to catch up.14:50
wpwrakrjeffries_: debian seems to be more a proof of concept. probably would need some major effort to trim it down and make it run efficiently. i also don't know what user interface they have.14:51
rjeffries_that helps a lot14:51
tuxbraindon't hold your breath, you know in spain we take things a little bit more... relaxed... thing that is not quite fun sometimes but well at the end you get used to it14:52
rjeffries_I wish sharism could di a simple online survey to see how many Ben owners use which distro, with option of also saying their Ben is not in active use14:53
wpwrakrjeffries_: jlime also has a very friendly cross-development environment, with the ability to install precompiled packages directly into the cross-development environment. not sure where openwrt is in this regard.14:53
tuxbrainand you are lucky that I'm from barcelona, quite north, the more south more relaxed14:53
rjeffries_tuxbrain it is almost time for my siesta right now. ;))14:53
tuxbrainhahahaha :) lucky you man, happy nap14:53
rjeffries_how is the wine in your region tuxbrain14:53
rjeffries_tuxbrain I have not time for a siesta b ut it is a MOST EXCELLENT idea14:54
wpwrakin the south, they still have bedpans, so they don't have to get out of bed just for urinating :)14:54
kyaktuxbrain: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#eggdrop - scroll down to "Public commmands".14:57
tuxbrainwe have some quite good,  priorat I think is the best, but there are some good Penedes or Terra Alta  also you can see a more in deep analisys of catalonian wines here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_wine14:58
wpwrakseems that we can keep the old stop lists for a bit longer :)15:00
wpwrakheh :)15:00
tuxbrainwpwrak: rjeffries_4 more used word :) hehehe15:01
steve|mto the a of you is in it and i15:01
wpwrak"you the more can that well" so yoda15:02
rjeffries_!words rjeffries15:07
tuxbrainsorry rjeffries_ only works with NN owners :P15:08
rjeffries_that is so damn funny. you are a genius15:08
Action: kyak stares at wpwrak15:12
kyak..and it's sleeping time15:13
wpwrakhah ! :)15:15
tuxbrainwolfgang, lekernel, wpwrak, larsc, roh, kristianpaul, mirko, Ornotermes and sometimes B_Lizzard are genius , I'm just a spaniard with good wine, sun and better food  so sense of humor come easy :)15:15
tuxbrainconclusion wpwrak should invest a little more time in "phisical" world15:16
kristianpaulgood wide, i dont know nothing about wines... :/15:16
wpwraki smell a bug :)15:17
kristianpaulha !15:19
wpwrakbah. now it calls me an egomaniac15:20
kristianpaulbug indeed15:25
tuxbrainsooo I think is just configured to keep an eye on you wpwrak15:25
wpwrakeverything gets attributed to me15:26
wpwrak!exec /n paparazzi-bot15:27
Last message repeated 1 time(s).15:28
wpwrakmaybe it needs a bit of time15:28
wpwraksee ?15:28
kristianpauli give up15:30
kristianpaulburn the bot!15:30
wpwrakvillagers unite ! down with the evil machine !15:32
tuxbrainI would like to see wolfgangs face when he reads the logs when he wakes up , lol15:32
wpwraktuxbrain: the best thing is that neither the commands now the responses show up in the public log, making it even more mysterious :)15:36
tuxbrainnow being serious for a while, it should be better if command an replies only shown to the requester , isn't it?15:39
kristianpauli triedn by /msg but it dint reply15:39
wpwraktuxbrain: +115:39
wpwrakof course, everyone would still see the command ...15:40
kristianpaul /msg -Freenode qi-bot topwords #qi-hardware15:40
kristianpaulit works15:40
wpwrakah yes. nice.15:41
roh21:39 < wpwrak> ah yes. nice.15:44
rjeffries_does not work for meL 12:39 <kristianpaul>  /msg -Freenode qi-bot topwords #qi-hardware16:08
wpwraktry just  /msg qi-bot topwords #qi-hardware16:13
Jay7my wife published photos of cases :)16:24
Jay7(russian text around)16:25
Action: steve|m had some fun with GIMP: http://i.imgur.com/wFZwb.jpg16:26
rohJay7: nice. i like the green one16:26
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: svgalib: fix mode detection (used to detect non-existent 24-bit modes) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/bc9547116:30
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: add icon for zgv http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/d5cef5b16:52
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: add icon for gnuplot http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/766824f17:08
dvdkhuh, what's that: after updating I now get hundreds of errors a la "ERROR: please fix feeds/qipackages/*" for almost all packages.17:09
dvdkok, solved: had only updated openwrt-packages.git, and not openwrt-xburst.git (have a custom feeds.conf that uses local openwrt-xburst.git checkout)17:11
kristianpaulsteve|m: he, you could not resist :D17:47
kristianpaulhmm Qt, i forgot that one17:48
zrafawpwrak: tuxbrain : which is the program you use to edit videos?.. (and where you put messages on videos)18:06
tuxbrainbeatifull 4mins video of fosdem, waiting for non-comercial clause those no tight to a company in his blogs please promote it , I have asked (or annoyed) the author to know the licence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPh0lhL_Nx818:08
lekernelmilkymist presentation: http://blip.tv/file/4433721 (with some flickernoise walk-through near the end)18:08
lekernel(not the fosdem one)18:08
tuxbrainzrafa: I use Openshot, and prepare the subtitles directly on Inkscape, openshots have some templates but usually doesnt fit on what I want.18:10
lekernel"high performance javascript"... hahahahaha18:10
tuxbrainlekernel: you where filmed by fosdem at your conf? will be your fosdem speach aviable?18:11
lekernelyeah, I was filmed. I don't know when they release the videos18:12
lekernelmy experience with nerd conferences is that they release them late because the pressure of the event just dropped18:12
lekernelhaha, and the video ends with a BSoD :)18:13
lekernelso typical :)18:13
lekernelas if GNU/Linux never crashes :)18:13
lekernelat fosdem 2012 i'll ask that guy to use a picture of GCC crashing instead18:14
tuxbrainwell any powered on sistem can fail... is matter on frequiency :P18:14
lekernel(atm, the gcc tree doesn't even compile for lm32 with a xgcc segfault, and I'm pretty pissed off about that)18:15
tuxbrainand also is not the same to hang a compile proccess that the whole system , but whatever nobody says linux is perfect, but there are systems less perfects by far :)18:17
zrafatuxbrain: ah.. thanks.. let me check18:19
wpwrakzrafa: i use kdenlive to edit videos18:37
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: nanonote.patch: decrease extra delay from 100 to 20 us (sufficient and faster) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/0d6dddf19:21
zrafawpwrak: great, thanks. I can not install any of them :P .. debian testing needs to fix some dependences before19:24
wpwrakzrafa: :-( kdenlive installs without trouble on ubuntu ...19:31
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. but because I use debian testing (which is useful because you never needs to do an upgrade between distros) it also has this kind of problems.. at some moments testing is not able to install some packages because those are being worked19:48
zrafawpwrak: so using debian testing you are in the middle of latest latest version of every software and stable debian version. If I had debian stable of course everything would install, but I will miss some latest version of many packages19:49
zrafathat is why I choose debian testing, so I know I have always very new version of packages, still if sometimes there are problems (I just need to wait some days surely and all will work)19:50
zrafano today gggrrr19:52
wpwrakwell, as long as they fix things quickly ...19:58
xMffdidn't they release recently? I suppose a lot of new stuff is flooding testing now19:59
steve|m"If you live on Mars and can't get a four layer board manufactured, Ubertooth Zero is a two layer alternative."20:55
steve|mhttp://ubertooth.sourceforge.net/hardware/build/ heh20:56
Ironicusdon't know if I am in the good channel, just saw the word "hardware", but I just wanna know the model of my motherboard to download the damn driver. I got many numbers, there is asus and intel21:24
Ironicuswell too much possibilities for me21:24
kristianpaulwrong channel sorry Ironicus21:26
kristianpaulbut you can try asking on #electronics21:27
kristianpaulIs a topic most close to your needs i think21:27
kristianpaulI wonder if this hardware questions are google fault? (may be qi-hardware is the top of searches about hardware now days ;-))21:28
larscomfg: http://blog.tridgell.net/?p=14121:35
Action: steve|m wasted almost an hour finding a msp430-gcc fault.. left-shifts > 12 fail, it only shifts 12 times21:35
kristianpaullarsc: do you have blog btw?21:42
larscnot yet21:45
larscwell i have one, but it's run by ghostwritters and its not about technical stuff or something21:46
larscmy plan is to setup one when i'm done with my electrical engineering exams and have some more time21:48
mirkotadaa: http://nanl.de/blog/2011/02/ben-nanonote-able-to-control-radio-power-sockets/ :)22:23
mirkogoing to bed now... good night folks22:24
--- Thu Feb 10 201100:00

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