#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-02-07

wolfspraulgone too fast...00:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system add nanonote script files package http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/eeb380300:58
kyakJay7: viric is not russian, though he speaks russian :) LunohoD, apparently, is from Russia :)01:14
kyakif i remember correclty, there were 7-10 Bens sold in Russia, so we should seek for the rest of 4-7 guys :)_01:15
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add more boot option default value to fw_setenv_default http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c9080ab02:02
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: u-boot add-more-boot-option http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/e8eeb9d02:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: not so shy ! ;-) "News item 2: we now also sell MilkyMist One boards directly from sharism. [...]"03:04
Jay7hehe.. yes, people are comparing NN with Zipit2 and choose second03:50
Jay7because (surprise) of wifi03:50
Jay7not sure about usb-host03:50
kyakinteresting, they look comparable03:52
kyakhoweverm it seems that they are far behind on the software side03:54
wpwrakugly design, too. lacks the all-black coolness of the ben :)03:56
kyakbut the hardware is really far ahead :) wifi (as you mentioned), expansion slot03:57
kyakyes, looks like shit, too03:57
kyakand... where is the price?03:59
kyakok, they also have prop. things there04:00
kyaknot comparable at all04:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, pcbnew needs one more option: --exclude-board-edges  for "plot"04:01
wpwrakkyak: (price) google for  zipit z204:01
kyakok, it's cheaper04:02
wpwrakthe price is indeed interesting, considering the sheer quantity of hardware they're packing. the ben is a much more integrated solution. well, it has a lot of expensive flash ...04:03
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb: cleaned up board for "production readiness" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/7fba9a205:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben: straightened traces inside 8:10 card slot to reduce risk of shorts http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/bb2894f05:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok got it (pcbnew param). need to see when I get to it.06:23
wolfspraulI haven't done anything yet on the kicad side since my announcement - not good :-)06:24
wolfspraulI mean the announcement on their list that I would work on upstreaming those patches...06:24
wolfspraulas I understand they are close to another release, maybe I uplevel after that06:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, that may be a good time. let's hope "close to another release" won't be a condition that lasts for years :)06:42
kristianpaulmorning Jay707:23
kristianpaul( zipit z2) put a GSM chip in the nano plus simcard, and a sofware to just connect to facebook and twitter, and you're done ! :p07:27
kristianpaulis cheap this device indeed07:28
steve|mkristianpaul: then you could directly use a MediaTek MT6235 as cpu :P07:40
steve|mgsm layer1 inside the linux kernel - this would be awesome07:46
kristianpaulLUA BOOOTS !!08:17
zrafawpwrak: do you remember people complaining about ubifs on nand broken after booting jlime or another system on SD? I found something related08:19
kristianpaultuxbrain: now i want my congrats back !! ;-)08:19
zrafakristianpaul: expired ;-))08:20
kristianpaulnow some proper blog post about this08:20
kristianpaulzrafa: lol08:20
zrafakristianpaul: great stuff man btw :)08:20
kristianpaulnow lets clean this mess08:21
kristianpauland make a proper patch ? ha08:21
wpwrakzrafa: (ubifs) aaah ?08:28
kristianpaulbooo ;)08:28
zrafawpwrak: ah.. you do not remember :)08:29
wpwrakzrafa: yes yes, i do remember. i was one of them :)08:29
zrafawpwrak: okey.. I am working with gamerunner distro for freerunner. It uses an old openmoko distro as base system. And this system tries to mount the freerunner jffs2 nand at boot time. My current system, qtmoko, uses ubifs, no jffs2. Well, after booting gamerunner it broke the ubifs on nand08:31
zrafawpwrak: very related I would say. The really suck thing is why ubifs breaks after some system tries to mount it with another layout or trying a different fs?08:32
wpwrakzrafa: maybe it's jffs2 that doesn't notice that this is ubifs and tries to do something funny with it08:33
wpwrakzrafa: as in "of, this looks broken". let's fix some things.08:33
zrafawpwrak: I am trying gamerunner in my freerunner from SD, similar like jlime on nanonote booting from uSD trying to mount nand08:33
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. but what about the situation with nanonote?. ON this case jlime tries to mount the ubifs nand.. but because qi-openwrt uses a different layout jlime can not mount that ubifs, but it breaks it :)08:34
zrafawpwrak: it is like.. "if I can not mount it I will break" :P08:34
wpwrakzrafa: yes, that's a little odd. maybe ubifs has the same kind of destructive behaviour like jffs2 then08:35
kristianpauldisable jffs2 support in the kernel and thats it??08:35
zrafakristianpaul: he.. well, but that would not fix the problem.. just avoid it :)08:36
kristianpaullets avoid jffs2 ;-)08:36
kristianpaulAnd see if the problem still there08:36
zrafakristianpaul: and I do not need to disablle jffs2 in kernel.. that is some script at /etc/rc* who tries to mount the nand08:36
zrafakristianpaul: I could comment out the line trying to mount all the things around08:37
zrafaif I want to avoid08:37
kristianpaulah i see08:37
zrafakristianpaul: but, anyway, I am not trying to avoid the problem. I would like to know what is happening08:37
wpwrakit may well be that at least jffs2 will mount anything it is told to mount, and just treat anything that doesn't look right as defective08:41
wpwrakphew. done.10:10
wpwraktuxbrain, rjeffries: all you'll ever wish to forget about UBB is about to hit the list :)10:11
rjeffrieshi wpwrak10:26
wpwrakrjeffries: let's see who has the first boards - you or tuxbrain ;-)10:28
rjeffriesI think I;ll have a bronze statue of you created and place it on a pedestal in my yeard11:01
rjeffriesif nothing else...11:02
wpwrakthat's easy. for writing only 299 lines. other guys have to write a lot more before they get a statue :-)11:03
rohhm. boards?11:14
wpwrakroh: UBBs11:16
rohjust seens the mail... tldr;11:16
wpwrakroh: that's the nerd's equivalent of a government posting new laws in its gazette. you can always say later "but i wrote it here" ;-)11:18
rohwpwrak: well.. you know what 'tldr;' stands for?11:23
rohalso works gread as sidenote on paper11:24
kristianpaulwpwrak: write and blood actually11:25
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, but one or the other is usually sufficient :)11:26
wpwrakroh: you should become a teacher11:26
rohi dont critisise... its just too much text for breakfast.. need to read it kater11:27
roheh later11:27
kristianpauldamn long11:30
kristianpaulwpwrak: Thats a nice copyleft plan let me tell you ! :-)11:35
wpwrakcopyleft plan ?11:37
kristianpaulplans != plan ?11:38
wpwraksure. but what plan are you referring to ? or do you mean "plan" as in "guide" or "instructions" ?11:39
kristianpaul"copyleft plans and software for manufacturing"11:39
kristianpaulplans a guide and preparatory instructions11:40
wpwrakah, more in the latter sense then. not "intention", "projection" :)11:40
kristianpaula/as a11:40
tuxbrainwpwrak: thanks a lot for the acurated and extense information :)13:54
rohwpwrak: archieved to read your mail. nice idea14:12
rohjust one problem: if all the stuff uses the '8:10' slot .. where should i store data?14:12
rohfor me io-extensions dont make sense if they block the only place for mass-storage14:13
kristianpaulroh: use the nand?14:23
rohkristianpaul: laughable capacity14:24
rohwears out fast. not exchangeable14:24
rohif i would design a device now i would not add any flash chip if possible14:25
rohuse the romloader, boot from sd. add 2 sdslots in total minimum.14:25
rohkristianpaul: also flash gets cheaper and bigger faster than you can develop. so if you plan your device with available chips now, they will be smaller than the cheap sdcards when you are in prodution and still cost you more than sdcards the same size14:27
kristianpaul12Gb nand !14:29
kyak800x600 touch display!14:30
kristianpaulUMTS !!14:30
kyakfor 35 bucks!14:30
kyakno, for 3.5!14:30
kristianpaul(not exchangeable) are you beating current desoldering techniques??14:32
rohkristianpaul: soldered flash is not user replaceable.14:34
rohhackers dont count at all (from a business pov)14:34
tuxbrainroh: I don't dislike the idea of dual 8:10 slot, also if both are accesible (as Openpandora has with SD) Nanonote can be used as 8:10 storage cards duplicator if you charge the SO in ram of course :)14:44
rohtuxbrain: one can be hidden behind the battery from my pov14:44
tuxbrainmmm this will "protect" the "system" card but I like more the idea of being accesible, then you have two slots to play with UBB things :P14:46
rohremoving the rootfs sucks14:46
rohfrom a software view, also from a complexity view.14:46
rohalso sd is _slow_14:46
rohso copying lots of data on the run is bullshit in reality14:47
rohhaving to exchange cards at all to expand total useable storage already sucks.. flash is just too slow and small still.14:48
rohatleast for serious computers.14:48
roh(or to expensive, pick your choice)14:48
tuxbrainmmm so flash is no way and sd is slow... so what is the alternative?14:49
kristianpaulsd is slow?14:50
rohkristianpaul: yes. same as usb storage.14:50
rohusb 'thumbsticks'14:50
rohall crap with <20mbyte/sec write speed.14:50
rohtuxbrain: from my pov the next nanonote needs to be more like a sharp netwalker.. atleast the performance.14:51
rohanything else will stay 'fisherprice toys'14:52
tuxbrainwhat storage is using netwalker?14:52
roh>500mhz. atleast 1/4 gb ram, maybe some nor for a bootloader, but no soldered nand.14:52
rohdunno. i think some flash and a disk14:52
tuxbrainI agree with you is a beautiful machine14:52
tuxbrainI have one :)14:53
tuxbrainbut damn expensive14:53
rohtrue. thats its problem.14:53
rohthe point is: one can DO stuff with it.14:53
rohin the real world. not just some fantasy-env14:53
rohah. no disk. sd external and 4gb nand.14:54
mstevensIs there going to be a next nanonote?14:54
rohwell.. internal nand only gives one pain, and work. better add more ram for disk-cache to make the second sd fast enough to use14:54
tuxbrainmethril has take a look at the insights , and his first though was it was a integration wet dream for any EE14:54
rohmstevens: at some point.14:55
rohah. i am talking about the pc-z1, not the tablet crap14:55
tuxbrainbut netwalker also use flash...is flash !=nand?14:56
tuxbrainyes me too14:56
Action: mstevens remembers tuxbrain sold him a nanonote14:56
rohtuxbrain: yes it uses flash. i dont say copy it. its just an example ;)14:56
rohnand is one kind of flash14:57
tuxbrainok clarified14:57
rohthe 'bad kind' .. which everybody uses since its lower price and bigger size than other types of flash14:57
tuxbrainmstevens: and that is good or that is bad? :P14:57
mstevenstuxbrain: good!14:57
rohthere is also nor, but its expensive and only available in small amounts a piece (few mbytes)14:57
tuxbrainroh: I agree with you than netwalkwer was a beautiful beast to wear in your pocket, but we also must face the following facts:15:08
tuxbraina) We don't have sharp resources15:08
tuxbrainb) Netwalker has a lot of privative stuff (which has made the kernel not advance in mainline and his ubuntu has not evoluted since his release)15:08
tuxbrainc)Nanonote form factor is awesome and also it's keyboard compared with Netwalker (I think is one of his main flaws)15:08
tuxbraind)I don't consider NN with 64 (or better 128)MB RAM , dual SD, 640x480 (or better a wide format) touchscreen,6LowPAN,GPS a toy at all , and when Harald Welte ends his Free GSM stack we can also add GPRS modem15:08
rohtuxbrain: a) b) sure.15:09
rohc) the nanonote multiple key suck (need diodes)15:10
rohdiode-matrix. enables you to do a keyboard which is useable, not broken like in ben15:11
rohin ben it fails as soon as you press the 3rd key.15:12
tuxbrainhave you a link of that kind of kbd?15:12
rohwell.. google for keyboard matrix with diodes and without15:13
rohthe current one doestn have diodes. so it can by definition not detect multiple keypresses at the same time without error15:13
tuxbrainok :)  understood15:14
tuxbrainalso to add to d) usb host :)15:16
rohsure. i thought thats obvious15:16
wpwrakroh: (data storage) nfs-over-cdc_net-over-usb ;-)15:25
rohusb is not intresting for me.15:26
wpwrakroh: but i agree with you criticism if built-nand on all counts. i'd love to have a second 8:10 card slot and that's what i'd consider a "must have" feature for the ya15:26
rohbesides temporary connecting15:26
tuxbrainok then , seems that the "dual 8:10 on ya" lobby is growing15:30
kristianpaullua is fast on the milkymist :-)15:30
wpwrakroh: (kbd) you can detect 0, 1, 2, and > 2 keys. so just ignore anything that happens when you have > 2.15:31
tuxbrainkristianpaul: you achive to make it run on the board? awesome :)15:31
tuxbraincan I congrat you now?15:31
kristianpaultuxbrain: http://kristianpaul.org/comoblog/Hacked_port_of_Lua_for_the_Milkymist_One.html15:31
kristianpaultuxbrain: :-)15:31
tuxbrainFELICIDADES MACHOTE!!!!15:32
kristianpaulNow lets hack flickernoise, hehe15:33
wpwrakroh: it's not as if anyone would type with a lot of fingers at the same time anyway ;-) well, the modifier keys need some special consideration15:35
rohwpwrak: sure. still i see it as kind of a 'too low end' concept15:36
rohdiodes are cheap15:36
zrafawpwrak: we have used 3 keys at the same time, which is the problem? the tiny keys?15:36
Jay7my wife is creating another case for nanonote ;)16:03
Jay7coming soon :)16:03
urandom__lua on Milkymist? awesome!16:07
urandom__but am i the only one who thinks "lua + fpga ’ lua-maschine"? not realistic i know16:11
kristianpauli think is same history as forth16:14
kristianpaulremenber forth processors?16:14
kristianpaulbut who knows !16:14
urandom__remember lisp-maschines, they used to be really awesome16:15
kristianpaullisp? i dint knew that one16:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: your web server is written in lisp isnt?16:16
urandom__wow thats sad, its important that people still remember what lisp-maschines where and what have been awesome about them16:17
kristianpaulurandom__: i born i 1987, i miss so much importants thing in computer science :/16:18
urandom__the sad part is, there have been not many important ideas after 1987.. (well i was born a bit later)16:20
wpwrakkristianpaul: my web server ? you mean the one i run at almesberger.net, awhttpd ? (i didn't write it) now, that one's written in C16:22
urandom__the short story is that lisp-maschines have been superior in many aspects and you might argue they still are but well in IT world the worse technology seems to win mostly16:22
urandom__kristianpaul start reading here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine16:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeap, ah ok, i was confused16:23
kristianpaulurandom__: already reading :-)16:23
kristianpaullook wikireader, can we call it a forth machine?16:24
urandom__wikireader ist running forth?16:24
wpwrakurandom__: lisp is a hard language to program in. particularly if you need efficiency, not only elegance.16:28
urandom__wpwrak well you need elegance and (a bit of) efficiency, just going for efficiency will end up in crap16:30
urandom__but what is hard about lisp?16:30
wpwrakurandom__: well, if you program lisp in a very procedural way, you can avoid most of the difficulties. but then, why use lisp in the first place ?16:37
kristianpaullets code in haskell !16:38
wpwrakurandom__: if you stay close to the functional paradigm, complex data structures get hard to manage. languages like C do a better job there (while having their own problems, like not ensuring referential integrity)16:39
wpwrakkristianpaul: do { while (easy(lang[i]) && !done) program_in(lang[i]); i++; } while (!done);16:40
kristianpauleasy -> done -> happy -> works !16:43
urandom__maybe lua or some lua like subset ist really the way to go for a new kind of lisp-maschine, i mean i understand some people dont like lisp but even c people should like lua, I dont really know how lua would do on bare hardware but would be fun to try16:44
urandom__(lua might have ALGOL style syntax but has many similaritys with lisp/scheme)16:47
kristianpaulno more excuses manifesto :-)17:11
wpwrakyeah, mission accomplished :)17:14
zrafaI am still reading the mail :)17:19
zrafaone of the longest17:19
wpwrakhow to stop all work in a project for one entire monday ;-)17:22
wpwrakwell, i have another mail in the making. about the CAM process. that one is only 114 lines so far, but still needs one or two major sections. also, it's dense text. only very few links and no pictures. should be fun :)17:26
wpwrakbut that won't hit the list too soon. maybe in a week or two.17:29
kristianpaulI hope it got more pictures in the remaining time for publication, mainlly because is CAM related. i think17:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: drawings would be nice ... but are also a lot of work. maybe in a later version :)17:32
kristianpaulI'll use my mind and imagination then ;-)17:35
viricwpwrak: what MUA do you use?18:54
viricI wonder how comfortable you keep some half-written letters, read others, ...18:55
wpwrakviric: i use mutt. i have a lot of parallel sessions :)18:56
wpwrakviric: besides, all the mails i write are just text files. so when i notice that something takes very long, i just save it with a proper name.18:57
kristianpaulwpwrak: parallel sessions? what for?18:58
kristianpaulmutt -f ?18:58
wpwrakkristianpaul: so that i don't have to finish reading/processing/answering one mail before reading/processing/answering the next.18:59
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah18:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: e.g., i have two mutt sessions in my inbox. that's where all the non-mailing-list traffic and some low-volume mailing lists end up. then three mutts on the qi-hw list. and one on the openmoko community list (because rafa asked about activity there). that's a fairly quiet setup.19:01
wpwraks/sessions in/sessions on/19:02
kristianpaulare you using mbox or mail-dir?19:03
wpwraki have to use maildir. don't remember exactly why .. i think because that's all isync supports. i like the easily searchable mbox better.19:05
kristianpaul(easily searchable mbox) yay19:05
kristianpaulAnyway is good to have VGA output from time to time :-)19:12
kristianpaulI like pdf thing19:12
wolfspraulkristianpaul: congrats you got lua to run on m1 :-)20:46
wolfspraulI don't know what you can do now with it, but it sounds cool...20:46
kristianpaul(do now with it) me either :p20:47
kristianpaulLets wait for a proper integration with flickernoise and see what came up :-)20:47
Action: kristianpaul trying to compile flickernoise for third time20:48
kristianpaulwolfspraul: I'm getting ready to migrate from SIE20:48
kristianpaulmorning adamw_21:15
adamw_kristianpaul, hi morning!21:16
pirokokristianpaul told me to ask you guys how typing is on the nanonote. I'm very curious21:35
xMffpunctuation can be hard to reach21:39
pirokoIn actual use, do you type on it like you would a cell phone? Like, with two hands using your thumbs?21:41
xMffat least me :)21:42
pirokoHuh. Interesting. You using it for anything interesting? I'm debating getting one, but I haven't thought of a good use for it yet21:42
pirokoI mean, I have my cell phone, which runs android, lasts all day, and can talk to my bluetooth keyboard. I'm just trying to figure out where the nanonote would fit21:43
wolfspraulpiroko: if you think purely practically, your Android phone is a very large superset of the NanoNote21:44
pirokoAnd thinking not purely practically?21:44
xMffcurrently I do not much with it due to a lack of time. I used it on the road as mp3 player and sometimes for chatting with irssi (got my self a wifi microsdio card)21:44
wolfspraulthe reason you may like the NanoNote is for the pure joy of knowing you can control 100% of the software, maybe because lots of unusual apps like vi, mutt, aewan, gmu and others are running on it out of the box21:45
wolfspraulI use mine primarily as a music player21:45
wolfsprauldon't have an Android phone though, barely use any cell phone21:46
pirokoYeah, I ssh to a real computer via my phone, so the nanonote probably wouldn't be very useful to me21:46
wolfspraulpiroko: you can also get a NanoNote just for the heck of supporting this project :-)21:46
pirokoIt's still very interesting to me though :)21:46
pirokohaha yes, plus the form factor is pretty sweet. How's the battery life?21:46
wolfspraulnot just financially, but more importantly in feedback and contributions21:47
wolfspraulbattery life... I think with screen on ca 4-6 hours, maybe more. with screen off just playing music I've heard 15 hours, but mine won't last that long.21:47
wolfspraulyou can fit slightly larger (thicker) batteries into the battery slot though, then it might be better. I think most people are satisfied with the battery life, in relation to how they use the device.21:48
wolfspraulso few people are trying to put larger batteries into it.21:48
wolfspraulit's definitely the most mobile pure Linux device on the market, I think21:48
wolfspraulthe downside is that the hardware specs are not really competitive, starting from things like usb on-the-go (host), to screen resolution, memory, lack of wifi, lack of touch, lack of gps/bluetooth, lack of gsm/edge/3g, lack of accelerometers21:49
wolfspraulI love the device though, and the community around it.21:50
wolfspraulyou can run openwrt, jlime, debian, gentoo on it21:51
wolfspraulfor debian and gentoo I personally think it's not very functional, but some people seem to prefer Debian still. (biggest problem is 32 mb memory, which is really too low for Debian)21:52
wolfspraulthe 2 best distros are definitely jlime and openwrt, imho21:52
wolfsprauloh, there is even a small microkernel being developed on and with the Ben, it's called Iris21:53
wolfspraula capability based microkernel21:53
pirokoWow. Thanks for the intro21:54
pirokoI find it interesting that jlime has ported their stuff over to the nanonote. I used to use jlime heavily on my jornadas21:54
wolfspraulthere's a lot of people that would argue that jlime is the best distro for NanoNote, it's quite actively supported and most importantly I think it will get better over time21:56
wolfsprauljlime and openwrt share very different philosophies, that's why I like them both21:57
wolfspraulopenwrt is always 'build from source' type, optimized for size & speed21:57
wolfspraulyou can create 4 mb sized bootable rootfs for the NanoNote, with openwrt21:57
wolfspraulbusybox, uclibc, etc.21:57
wolfspraulmy nanonote with openwrt boots in 15 seconds21:57
wolfsprauljlime on the other hand is using openembedded on the backend, which is more of a meta-distribution type of environment21:58
wolfspraulso you would typically not want to build jlime yourself from source, instead you see jlime as a 'built for you' environment with lots of packages ready to be installed21:58
wolfspraulin numbers, openwrt has about 2000-2500 packages, jlime about 15,00021:59
wolfspraul(note that most of them wouldn't make sense or even run successfully on the NanoNote anyway)21:59
wolfspraulthose numbers just to illustrate my point21:59
pirokoRight. I've dealt with openembedded. It was pretty much the worst experience of my life, and the jlime guys will attest to its horridness. But they still do a great job of packaging stuff up22:01
wolfspraulwe share the same experience :-)22:01
wolfspraulso the 2 'official' and currently most supported distros for the Ben are jlime and openwrt22:01
wolfspraulthen there is Debian which is also quite actively maintained22:01
wolfspraulgentoo I've only read once, and never heard much from anymore22:02
pirokohaha. I wonder if there's someone out there who actually installs their packages ON the nanonote in gentoo22:02
wolfspraulfedora was interested at some point, but backed off when they found out about 32 mb memory, since they officially only support platforms with 64 mb memory or more (and even that was just lowered from 128 to 64).22:02
wolfspraulwe are trying very hard to get patches upstream, everwhere22:03
wolfspraullarsc has been exceptionally successful in getting most of the NanoNote Linux kernel patches into kernel.org22:03
wolfspraulthat should help come out with newer Debian builds22:03
wolfspraulI've also heard the jlime folks are working on getting some of their stuff back into OpenEmbedded, which is great22:04
wolfspraulxiangfu is working on getting u-boot patches into u-boot proper22:04
wolfsprauland so on22:04
wolfspraulafter a year we succeeded in getting the nanonote-specific usbboot utility (for unbricking) into Debian unstable :-)22:05
wolfsprauldamn what? your Android phone just broke?22:07
pirokoDamn that it took a year22:09
larscunfortunately things don't tend to happen magical, so you have to some effort into them and they take some time22:11
pirokoOf course22:11
pirokoAnd debian is a HUGE project22:11
rohwolfspraul: any hint how i get a fedex box? or should i use some of mine?22:12
wolfspraulroh: did you confirm that the fedex airway bill is enough for you as a proof of export?22:13
rohit seems so. i will talk with the fedex guys on the phone lateron.22:14
wolfspraulor should we just believe the fedex rep that < 1000 EUR it is enough...22:14
wolfspraulsure. I would probably trust them, but the risk is on your side so I ask you.22:14
rohmy tax guy basically confirmed it22:14
wolfspraulah great22:14
wolfspraulso then, next question, what is the lowest price fedex can offer22:14
wolfspraulI think they have some calculator on their website, let me check22:14
rohhehe. i need to find a scale to re-weight the package22:15
wolfspraulbasically there are 2 options, you can use the sharism fedex account, or you can just pay cash22:15
wolfspraulmust be ca. 3 KG22:15
wolfspraulusing the sharism account is easiest for you, but if it's more expensive than you paying cash I would rather save the money22:15
rohsure. but i guess its more expensive when i pay cash than your account (which for sure has better conditions than single packages)22:16
wolfspraulon one hand sharism gets a (small) discount, because we ship quite a bit with them, on the other hand getting a package from Germany to Taiwan is called a '3rd party shipment', because the sharism account is in hong kong22:16
wolfspraulno, not that easy22:16
wolfspraulfedex has many great services, but well, they make money on those services :-)22:16
wolfspraulof course you can just give them the number and the shipment is on the way. but sharism (=me) has to pay for that luxury :-)22:17
rohi guess for my papers its easier to get the airway-bill directly22:17
wolfspraulthey can even pick it up (ring, more fees)22:17
rohjust thinking...22:17
wolfspraulyou will get the airway bill in any case22:17
rohpickup? i guess so. have no clue how to get packages to them otherwise. i am not aware of any fedex stations22:17
wolfspraulsometimes sending in a fedex standard envelope/box is cheaper, they will give you those for free22:18
wolfspraulone by one22:18
wolfspraulwe learn, also for future shipments22:18
roheh. ok. so i will call them for conditions, terms and getting their box somehow.22:18
wolfspraulgoing to their office at least once is not bad, you can chat a bit and get some free envelopes/packages etc.22:18
wolfspraulalso we need to see how much they charge for pickup22:18
wolfspraullet me try to find their calculator now... Germany to Taiwan22:19
wolfspraulroh: they also mention this 7-digit customs number, which seems mandatory for a lot of shipments since jan 1, 201122:21
wolfspraulmaybe you should get one for yourself. it's probably easy, just some paperwork. Harald has one too, I use it for the shipments I send to him.22:22
wolfspraulwww.zoll.de has it, supposedly22:22
wolfspraulVordruck 087022:22
wolfspraulwe don't need it for this shipment, but with such a number you have more power for the future :-)22:22
wolfspraulah, and for shipments over 1000 EUR you need this: https://www.ausfuhr.internetzollanmeldung.de/22:26
rohnot sure i get such a number. i only have a vat-id. no handelsregisterauszug or gewerbeanmeldung22:28
wolfspraulI'm sure you get one. anybody can get one.22:31
wolfspraulfirst price I get from fedex is 217 EUR. too much.22:31
rjeffrieshow much work is required to reflash Ben to a new version? assume NEW user, not tools set up pls. Tanks22:42
wolfspraulif you have a Debian-based Linux host (debian/ubuntu/etc), you can install the xburst-tools .deb package, then run reflash_ben.sh22:45
wolfspraulfirst time it needs to download the files, so depending on your network speed that may take 30 minutes for downloading, then another 30-40 minutes for flashing22:45
wolfspraulsecond device only the flashing time, reflash_ben.sh will pickup the downloaded files from a local cache22:46
rjeffriesI have Ubunto machines22:46
rohshould just work22:46
wolfspraulroh: if the fedex price stays that high, I think we should opt for a cheaper option22:47
wolfspraulI will see whether I can bring it down somehow, using a fedex envelope/pack, the sharism account, etc.22:47
wolfspraulI thought about 100 EUR max, but if it's < 150 EUR maybe we just go for it, move things forward22:47
wolfspraul> 150 EUR is definitely too much, then we rather try dhl or even regular airmail22:48
wolfspraulyou can airmail a 2 KG letter for 16 EUR (the size requirements for 'letter' are quite large nowadays)22:49
wolfspraulso you could send 2 such letters, 5 cases in each = 32 EUR22:49
wolfspraulmy only concern then would be the export stuff, but maybe if you get a receipt from the postoffice that's still enough because we are < 1000 EUR22:49
rohi'll find out22:50
rjeffriesI just sent a Dockstar (small computer) to Sweden by mail, cosy ne $15, was there in about 1 week. pleasantly surprsies22:50
rohwould be much easier to sell within the eu22:50
wolfspraulroh: that letter option is definitely good, only thing is proof of export22:51
rohstill quite expensive22:51
wolfspraulthat's our fallback, we know we can get 2 such letters airmailed to Taiwan for 32 EUR22:51
wolfspraulreading this more carefully, they also mention the 1000 EUR limit for the export decalaration stuff22:55
wolfspraulso we should be safe on that end22:55
wolfspraul(page 21)22:55
wolfspraulyou would have to fill out a form too, they have two forms (cn22 for value < 340 EUR, and cn23 for value > 340 EUR)22:56
wolfspraulmy concern with using that route is that the deliver in Taiwan is being done by Taiwan Post. if you only have an English address on the letter, they will be adding a time consuming 'translation' step.22:56
wolfspraulthat is, the letter will first go to a translation office, where they lookup the chinese address, add it to the letter, and then back into the local system22:57
wolfspraul(same procedure in China btw)22:57
wolfspraulthis translation office is often overloaded or just plain slow. I have seen airmailed letters needing 4-6 weeks until they were finally delivered.22:57
wolfspraulthe delay was on the translation side. So... if we use this way I will send you Adam's address in Chinese, you print it out and attach it besides/under the English address on the letters.22:58
wolfspraulthat way we hopefully bypass the translation step and the letter can immediately be delivered locally.22:58
wolfspraulwith an integrated system like fedex there is no such problem, since fedex handles the entire process, and their entire system runs on English characters.22:58
wolfspraulroh: should we just go this airmail letter route? 2 * 16 EUR = 32 EUR?22:59
wolfspraulthen I will email you Adam's address in Chinese, and you can go to the postoffice to airmail them out...22:59
wolfspraulthe size is very generous, you only need to prepare 2 small packets where the weight is less than 2 kg each23:00
rohdunno yet. will go sleep now23:13
rohalready 5am and i feel kinda sick last 2 days.. better sleep it off.23:13
wolfspraulsure, sleep well. n823:26
wolfspraulI will email you Adam's address in Chinese.23:26
--- Tue Feb 8 201100:00

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