#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-02-03

wpwrakthis should provide an easy start: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/ubb.jpg00:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb: universal breakout board in 8:10 card format http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/817246400:06
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb/cam: CAM process for cutting the PCB, now with parametrized "mkmk" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/5b7cc3e00:06
tuxbrainwpwrak: You deserve a post with all that picutres :)01:36
wpwraki'll post to the list when i have the other side of it, too01:37
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atmega8u2.lib (PB2): end list of pin names with a slash if wrapped http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b32310001:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb-pgm: programming adapter that connects to the Universal Breakout Board http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/452183701:49
wpwrakthis one :)01:49
tuxbrainUniversal breakout board :) will be UBB a new standard? :P01:56
wpwraktuxbrain: it simplifies the making of things that connect to the ben. now you just need an UBB, a bit of ribbon cable, and the board/adapter you connect to (or go straight to a crimped connector with it)01:58
wpwraktuxbrain: kinda the "poor man's version" of wolfgang's breakout cable :)02:03
tuxbrainsoldering pads of the ubb are too narrow for my taste , I was the designer I had enlarger that end or put some kind of female connector, but yes , the combo ubb+ribon cable seem a good solution for DIY crowd  , and surelly more afordabel than wolfgans's breakout cable02:03
tuxbrainif I was the designer02:04
tuxbrainI will talk with him to go straigh ahead with that , and offer them on the shop02:04
wpwraktuxbrain: the pads are at 50 mil, just like the ribbon cable. doesn't get easier to solder ;-)02:06
wpwraktuxbrain: peel the cable, maybe trim and tin the wires, superglue the cable to the landing area, wait a bit, then solder the wire ends. done.02:07
tuxbrainyeah, it's sound easy until you realize on the size of a 8:10 card :P02:08
wpwraktuxbrain: it's just a piece of pcb. you can find a pcb house for it yourself :)02:08
wpwraktuxbrain: (easy) small doesn't necessarily mean difficult ;-)02:08
tuxbrainyes that's the idea, but if we go this way, maybe the wolfgans' cable loss it's sense02:08
tuxbrainthat's why I want to talk with wolfspraul02:09
wpwrakah, i see02:09
tuxbrainI think he will agree, he has a lot of other things to do, in addition is chinese new year so even if he want to do something he can't right now02:10
rjeffriesUBB rocks wpwrak02:21
rjeffriesto do an efficient PCB run at a board house I think we need a maytix of a bunch of UBBs02:22
rjeffrieswith drawing showing where to make the snap apart zones (I do not know correct lingo)02:23
rjeffriestuxbrain are you here02:28
wpwrakrjeffries: yes, you'd want to make a panel. the pcb house may also be able to do this for you.02:33
wpwrakrjeffries: the only difficulty is the precise outline of the 8:10 card02:34
rjeffrieshow well is that shown in the KiCad file?02:39
wpwrakrjeffries: also, you probably want to make around 1000 pieces or more. otherwise, the setup cost is something like 90% of the price.02:39
rjeffriesanuhow you are on a roll. do you consider the uart 8:10 as being good to go now?02:40
wpwrakthe kicad file has the exact outline02:40
rjeffrieswpwrak  understood. wonder how much pcb place will charge to mill out the ofset part02:40
wpwrakthe uart isn't fully tested yet. also, one thing to consider is whether it should have zener diodes on the tx/rx lines, in case someone connects a 5V (or worse) source02:41
wpwrakrjeffries: calculate USD 500-1000 if doing it in the US02:41
rjeffriesoh yes good thought and my gut says yes. smebody will screw up and that will I think blow the Ben02:42
rjeffriesyou mean 500-1000 final BOB 810 right? might be a panel that has woo small images on it that break apart?02:43
wpwraknot sure if 5 V through an I/O pin will do much to it. Ron should be ~100 Ohm, and it has to go through at least one diode, so that's another ~0.5 V. but you never know ...02:43
rjeffriesyou can tell I am not an EE02:43
wpwrakBOB ?02:45
B_LizzardNot me, sorry,02:45
rjeffriesI was thinking that uart 8:10 might be even better wuth RJ45 female connector. thos are cheap02:45
rjeffriesbut yout 3 prong connector ain't bad either02:45
wpwrakrjeffries: the USD 500-1000 are based on a quite i ran on 4pcb.com. for quantities 1-1000.02:46
wpwrakrj45 is huge02:46
rjeffriescool for this board or other?02:46
wpwrakyou want this to be very small, so that the mechanical forces don't get out of hand02:46
wpwrak(quote) for UBB.02:47
rjeffriesthe BOB-8:10 should end up at what? %1 USD02:47
wpwrakat 1000 pieces, it would be .... about USD 1.08 :)02:47
wpwrakless if you want to wait > 1 week02:48
rjeffriesa week is nothing02:48
rjeffrieswould those be cut apart and milled to the right shape?02:48
wpwrakthat's the question :) they should be able to cut them properly. but it's very demanding, so you'd have to ask them about their abilities.02:49
wpwrakwell, let me rephrase this: i'm pretty sure that they can do it. the question is just if it costs extra :)02:50
rjeffrieshow well specified is that. Oh I assume it costs extra. an extra step02:50
rjeffrieswhat does that notch do on 8:10 is it a detent?02:51
wpwrakit's a visual marker to indicate where you should slow down with the coating02:52
wpwrakdoesn't look too great, though. well, it would serve its purpose.02:52
rjeffriesI understand that wiyj uart or atBEN bit not for BOB02:53
wpwrak(coating) that is, if you choose to apply some.02:53
rjeffriesyou said coating did you mean cutting02:53
rjeffriesfor BOB why bother?02:53
wpwrakwhat does BOB mean ?02:53
rjeffriesbreak out board I thought you called it BOB ;)02:54
wpwrakUBB ! :)02:54
wolfspraulI've uploaded the milkymist one test report http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=File:Reichl_milkymist_one_tests_11000301.pdf02:54
wolfspraul31 pages, I need to read it a bit more thoroughly in due time...02:55
rjeffriesoh what is UBB02:55
rjeffriesuniversal breakout board I guess02:55
rjeffriesBOB only lived for thre eminutes. May he rest in peace02:55
rjeffriesanybody want to contribute to flowers for his funraL02:56
rjeffriesmemorial service will be held on irc. after he is cremated02:56
wpwrakwolfspraul: looks pretty impressive03:00
rjeffriesciao all03:01
wpwrakrjeffries: (coating) isolation03:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: well need to sift through to understand the key points, whether/how we can improve etc.03:01
wolfspraulof course this is a template from reichl, so if we use him more we will see similarly formatted reports for ben-wpan etc.03:02
wolfspraulfor me this is enough to self-certify CE compliance, about FCC I am not sure yet, need to investigate a bit more03:02
wolfspraulI will also compare this document with the CE & FCC reports we did back in the day for Ben NanoNote (they are also uploaded in the wiki)03:04
wpwrakgood. that'll show if there are any areas one or the other doesn't have03:05
Ornotermeswpwrak: you should have something like this to come with UBB: http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=488103:06
wolfspraulcan uart functionality be implemented with the ubb, without the additional IC that is on the actual uart board?03:07
wpwrakOrnotermes: yeah, there are a lot of things you can connect to it :-)03:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: (uart) dunno. maintaining this kind of timing accuracy isn't easy, particularly at higher bit rates.03:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: (well, at some point it gets easy again. you just disable all interrupts and busy loop ;-)03:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: ARMs have the FIQ that can be used for such crazy real-time. not sure if the xburst has something similar. probably not.03:10
wolfspraulok but most applications will only need 57 kbit or so, maybe 115?03:11
wolfspraulthat's too much you think?03:11
wolfspraul(to handle in software)03:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: if you want to do it all in software on the ben, maybe 300 bps would be more realistic :)03:11
Ornotermeswpwrak: ofc :) but it makes it easier to make a 100mil head for prototyping boards03:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: the problem is that each time something turns off interrupts, you get that duration added as jitter to your timer03:13
wpwrakOrnotermes: the easiest solution would be to crimp a connector. having two rows may be a problem, though.03:14
wpwrakOrnotermes: but if you look at ben-wpan/atusb-pgm/, you'll see that i have something very similar to your adapter in mind :)03:14
wpwrakOrnotermes: just optimized for another use (and with the power signals moved to one side)03:15
wolfspraulwpwrak: what is the ubb good for then?03:18
wolfspraulwhich application/use case03:18
Ornotermeswpwrak: nice :)03:18
wpwrakwolfspraul: (UBB) it's purpose it to export the 8:10 card signals. you can then connect a cable that then goes to whatever you fancy03:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: e.g., ben-wpan/atusb-pgm/03:22
wolfsprauldon't understand03:25
wolfspraulI first use the ubb, then a cable to another board?03:25
wolfspraulwhy not plug the other board into the 8:10 connector right away?03:25
rjeffriesre UBB I would argue u=it also makes it fairly easy to connect a bredaboard where one can do e.g. things like the uart design03:25
wolfspraulubb then ben-wpan?03:25
wolfspraulfine, breadboard then what?03:26
rjeffrieswolfspraul any number of diy designs prolly using a AVR chip.03:26
wolfspraulhow do you talk to that avr chip?03:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: making ubb is non-trivial, because of the narrow tolerances. once you have solved that problem, you can then go to easier boards.03:28
rjeffrieswolf you probably STEAL the wpwrak circuit design that alreday exists but you might use a different (non surface mount) AVT03:28
wpwrakone of these days i'll also find those crimp connectors on digi-key ...03:28
rjeffriesUBB should be not too hard for a commercial PCB fab03:28
rjeffrieswhy are you so negative Wolfspraul?03:29
rjeffriesit's not like you personally will be responible for mfh this simple PCB unless you choose to03:29
wolfspraulI am in no way negative at all.03:30
wpwrakhere we go: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=609-3570-ND03:30
wolfspraulI don't understand what it connects to.03:30
wpwrakthe 8 pos variant is a bit exotic. 10 pos should be more common. so just use a wider cable and cut off two signals.03:30
rjeffrieswolfspraul I am puzzled why you don't get it that extending the SPI signals to where a DIY person can muck about is awesome03:30
wolfspraulI try to understand what that means. I am listening to Beethoven's Waldstein sonata on my ben now, it's very clear to me what that is. Maybe I'm just a little old fashioned :-)03:32
wolfspraulbut I will get it eventually03:32
wolfspraul(the ubb I mean)03:32
wpwrakrjeffries: the GPIOs plus power. not necessarily SPI :)03:32
rjeffriesthe design on uart 8:10 uses smt as YOu pointed out to me. so UBB extends toe Nen GPIos to where anybody03:33
wolfspraulalso I try to understand what makes more sense from a packaging standpoint. the ubb alone, or the ubb plus wire soldered to it already.03:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: the idea is simply to separate the difficult/unique part from the more common part. ribbon cables are well known and people generally know how to handle them03:33
rjeffriescan build a board that uses serial connection to Ben03:33
wolfspraulrjeffries: you mean serial connection with the ubb, without additional ic?03:33
wolfspraulthat was my thought, but werner killed it (too slow)03:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: i was aiming to keep the production cost down. UBB is what comes right out of the PCB fab. repackage, ship, done ;-)03:34
wolfsprauloh sure, we can add it to every ben03:34
rjeffriesNO. it is a non-starter electronically. you need a couple of chips. this ain't rocket science03:34
rjeffriesand if you don't like UBB that is ok. it is a free world03:34
wolfspraulbut I try to understand how all these different boards and cables connect together. and what people will then do with them.03:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: (serial) you could use SPI. that would be faster than UART, because the ben can dictate the clock.03:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, i have a lot of little boards now ;-)03:35
rjeffriesmu vision is as follows: atBen we all understand03:35
wolfspraulI can throw a ubb into every ben box, no problem. I am thinking about adding a second battery also (different subject).03:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: (ubb) your distributors may prefer little bags with 10 or so :)03:36
wolfspraulin fact I would have added the second battery in the last batch if I would have had the idea earlier. when I had the idea it was too late because lead-time was 3 weeks and I had some orders to fill.03:36
rjeffriesuart 8:10 gives one a righeos serial to connect to GPSm and and numver of other bards03:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: for each project you connect to, you'd make you custom adapter, with UBB on one end03:36
wolfspraulrjeffries: yes, the uart board (with uart ic)03:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: that is, unless you need to integrate (atben or my uart project)03:37
wolfspraulwell, but the ubb is cut off (the pcb), so placing the following ics on the same pcb as the uart/ben-wpan do is much nicer, no?03:37
wpwrakneed/wish :)03:37
rjeffriesthe UBB does not belong in BEN box because many people do not need it03:37
rjeffriesit belongs in an experimentes kit03:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes, it's much nicer. but also harder to do.03:37
wolfspraulsure but it costs 20 cents, let's say nothing03:37
wolfspraulbut yes, the real question is where does this lead and what is the right way to sell it (in which package/kit)03:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: UBB is only relevant for DIYers.03:38
wolfspraulwhat is it that the diyers do themselves then?03:38
rjeffriesthat is your question. you approach this as if copyleft does not mean that the tuxcrain s or others do not start making little add-ons03:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: those that are sufficiently tooled up may not need it either (e.g., if they make integrated boards anyway)03:39
wolfsprauloh sure that's great. I never do something I don't understand anyway.03:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: they do the rest of the circuit :)03:39
rjeffriesthink about Asafruit. You dislike them am Sparkfun and one would assume dANGEROUS pROTOTYPES AND sEED sTUDIOS03:39
wolfsprauldislike? man, if anybody is paranoid it's you.03:39
rjeffriesBUT THOSE ARE ALL HEALTL (sorr for vcap accidentaiL\\03:39
wolfspraulthose are (afaik) all 3 great businesses03:39
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes, so the ones that can make boards themselves won't need ubb. and the ones that want uart or 802.15.4 don't need it either.03:40
wolfspraulwhich means I don't know which cases remain for ubb proper.03:40
rjeffriesso what is it soi hard for you to wrap your (smart!) mind around boards like UBB and uart 8:10.03:40
wolfspraulI fully understand uart 8:10. I am trying to understand ubb.03:41
rjeffriesoh that is crap. making ubb by hand as a one off is a pain in the ass03:41
rjeffriesI'd much rather pay say $5usd or more and be done with it03:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: UBB would be for those who want to connect a DIY project to the ben03:41
wolfspraulnobody would make one ubb by hand, if they can do that they would make something more integrated right away.03:41
rjeffriesI woul NOT burden the Ben with the extra cost03:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: so typically ubb would lead to a breadboard?03:42
rjeffriesyou do not care to cater to DIY hobbyist that is OK.03:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: for example, yes03:42
rjeffriesbreadboad is prolly best example03:42
wpwrakrjeffries: relax :)03:42
wolfspraulrjeffries: maybe I actually care what those hobbyists do, rather than selling into their cluelessness.03:42
rjeffriesso if you wnat to make it better, add the cable, put the right connector on other end for breadboard and charge I dunno $2003:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: or some other circuit they have. e.g., an arduino or such should have signals (SPI or similar) this could connect to03:43
wolfspraulrjeffries: yes but we had the breakout cable already, in fact I already made 10 and gave them away here and there.03:43
rjeffriesok so I am clueless I don;t care what you say aboy that03:43
wolfspraulso the ubb seems like a step back from that, unless there are use cases I overlook/don't understand.03:43
rjeffriesyou have a valid focus ther are other viewpoints03:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: the UBB is a small step backwards from the cable you made, correct03:44
rjeffrieswhich part of connect to a breadboard do you not understand? it is so obvious03:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's a more focussed variation of the same theme if you want03:44
rjeffriesjust because YOU don't want doesnt mean that engineering students would not03:44
wolfspraulargh :-)03:44
wolfspraulron, relax.03:44
rjeffriesI am nbaffled03:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: where's /ignore when you need it, eh ? ;-)03:45
wolfspraulwe did a breakout cable before, do you know?03:45
wolfspraulI am just trying to understand ubb.03:45
rjeffriesI do not know that what did it cost03:45
wolfspraulI paid 800 RMB for 10. so that's 12 USD / piece.03:45
wolfspraulstreet job, no documentation nothing03:45
wolfspraulbut they made the cables03:45
rjeffriesok. was it 9:10 at one end?03:46
wolfspraulfor example I gave 3 to mirko vogt at 27c3, and he is working to hookup a hoperf module with them03:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: UBB is a building block that's easy to manufacture very cheaply and in arbitrary numbers. so you don't have to make (relatively) expensive cables.03:46
rjeffriesso ubb does that but will be cheaper by a factpor of 1003:46
wolfspraulhe changed the 100 mil connector to a little board, then soldered it to the hoperf module03:47
wolfspraulas he told me yesterday he is now able to talk to remote controllable power switches03:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: i also had the impression that you had a bit given up on the cables03:47
tuxbraincalm down guys, wolfspraul I thing is not good idea to put in NN by default, but is a good addon to sell separartly03:47
tuxbrainthe first use I see of UBB is as Atmega flasher, wpwrak has demonstrate is posible03:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: one of the nice things about UBB is that you can still make it cheaply if you don't have direct access to the chinese street workforce ;-)03:48
rjeffriestuxbrain anything that increases cost of ben hrst sharism03:48
tuxbrainI was disposed to finance the production of some hundreds of this one03:49
Ornotermeswolfspraul: don't think of UBB as a PCB, think of it as a connector. a bridge between Ben and DIY03:49
rjeffriestuxbrain good on you will you build in Europe or??03:49
tuxbrainwhatever is more economical and quick03:50
kyakif you put it into Ben by default, wouldn't Ben lose its microSD capability?03:50
wpwraktuxbrain: (flasher) yup. that's what i'll use it for. just instead of having a custom 8:10 board plus a custom other end, like i did for the silabs chip, i split the two.03:50
rjeffriestuxbrain hav eyou started shopping it around? I assume there are proto PCB fabs in Spain?03:50
wpwrakrjeffries: (increases the cost) au contraire :-) whatever accessory can be sold in addition to the ben HELPS sharism and the distributors ;-)03:51
tuxbrainyes they are I have contacted for another project that finally doesn't see the sun light but i thing I will conctact them again03:51
rjeffrieswpwrak yes AGREE wolfspraul had mentione just throwing ubb in Benevery ben box. that increases Ben COGS by a follar or so03:52
rjeffriesdistributors love accessories03:52
tuxbrainrjeffries: please tellme that follar-> dolar03:52
rjeffriestuxbrain yes s/follar/dollar03:53
tuxbrainfollar= fuck in spanish :P03:53
rjeffriesoh good I learned something new!!!!03:53
wolfspraulrjeffries: I am thinking, trying to understand. so I ask myself questions, like "what if I would add this to every ben?" (and many other questions)03:53
wpwraktuxbrain: "COGS" ... follar ... ;-)03:53
wolfspraulyou are reading things into this, don't know why. this is a discussion channel.03:53
rjeffriesgood wolfspraul that's why ypu run sharism and whatever you do will be fine by me03:53
rjeffriesCOGS cost of goods sold but you already know that03:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: you could add it as a sample, like a sticker, if you want. or as a teaser ;-)03:54
tuxbrainPlease don't :(03:54
tuxbrainThis is like to mark whole NN as DIY thing and that is not03:55
rjeffriestuxbrain can make an extra several USD with this litt;e board03:55
wpwrakwolfspraul: since the boards should be quite cheap, it would make sense to sell them in larger packs. also, because people who use one will probably want more. (e.g., for different projects, project variants, and so on)03:55
tuxbrainSell this apart, cheap but apart03:55
Action: rjeffries nods to tuxbrain03:55
tuxbrainwpwrak: +1 to the multiple pieces kit, for those prolific that will need more than one03:56
rjeffriestuxbrain that would imply someone with multiple NNhow common is that?03:57
wpwraktuxbrain: with <10, overhead would dominate the price anyway :)03:57
wpwrakrjeffries: see above :)03:57
wpwrakrjeffries: most DIYers make more than one project in their lifetime :)03:57
tuxbrainexample: 1 UBB+piece of ribon=3¬, 10 UBB =5¬03:58
tuxbrainand a roll of ribonn cable sold separatly03:58
tuxbrain50 UBB=20¬ 100=30¬ and so on03:58
wpwrakrjeffries: and they refine their projects, too.03:58
rjeffrieswhatever. DIY is not a dirty word in my worl. it is not central focus og NN but can provide extra sales03:58
tuxbrainprice is totally orientative until I know the cost of the UBB and Ribon cable but you got the idea03:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: we can glue one on the outside of the box :-)03:59
rjeffriesI talked with a grad student EE and he was quite interested in NN used in lab and as a master for a small conytol system03:59
wpwraktuxbrain: not sure what price point you get with the UBB board (PCB cost alone). may be in the 0.5-1 EUR range.03:59
wolfspraulI have seen business cards of IC sales people where they glued an actual IC onto the business card. pretty cool I think :-)03:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: nice :)04:00
tuxbrainwolfspraul: please stop free additions to BNN :)04:00
rjeffriesnow that wpwrak and others have opened Ben to interfacing to outside stuff, it opens many doors04:00
wolfspraulwe have a lot of boards now. ubb, the old Ornotermes inspired 8:10 breakout cable ending in a 100 mil header. the new 8:10 uart. atben.04:01
rjeffriesatBen is your wireless lifeline04:01
wolfsprauland if mirko gets something with hoperf to work really well, maybe we should make a little 8:10 board that has the hoperf module soldered onto it on the outside04:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: i wouldn't worry too much about the uart for now04:01
wolfspraulwhy not?04:02
rjeffriesthe old Ornoterms breakout is prolly for him only04:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: 1) not done yet, 2) probably less useful than UBB04:02
tuxbrainyes I agree and I am very happy with that, but we don't have to miss the point that BNN is not a DIY, but it can become handy for DIY guys and it can atract good HW hackers to the Qi-Hardware scene04:02
rjeffriesBen needs hardwrae people04:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, and 3) harder to make (SMT)04:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: UBB is minimum investment for maximum return ;-)04:03
rjeffriesBNN is right now an unconnected Linux system04:03
rjeffriesatBen + atUSB give it a wireless link04:03
tuxbrainwpwrak: I dissagree, don't  trow away the 8:10 UART04:03
rjeffriesUBB lets me build any damn thing I want to04:03
wpwraktuxbrain: i didn't say "throw it away". just to give it a low priority for now04:04
wolfsprauloh, and we have the old 8:10 to full-size adapters I gave away as Qi christmas gifts in 200904:04
tuxbrainif is in change of bost the atben ok04:04
tuxbrainwolfspraul: that is my actual breackout board now :)04:04
wolfsprauland the fpc variant of them to wrap around the ben04:04
rjeffriesso who cares if Uart plus directly in, or is on seperate NanoPod (TM, rjeffries;)04:04
wpwraktuxbrain: e.g., i won't do anything on the uart before atusb is done :)04:05
rjeffrieswolfspraul what is fpv ??04:05
tuxbrainwpwrak: agree in your work path04:05
Ornotermesrjeffries: my breakout board is made with DIY in mind, but there is nothing stoping you or anyone else to manufacture and sell them04:05
tuxbrainwolfspraul: when I return from fosdem I will contact my local pcb maker to quot for UBB04:06
wolfspraulOrnotermes: you mean your cable? I had 10 made at some point as giveaways.04:06
rjeffriesI know that. need to understand tradeoff of yor design vs the wpwrak UBB04:06
wolfspraulactually I am just now searching the one I thought I left to myself, but cannot find it :-)04:06
Ornotermeswolfspraul: yes. nice :)04:06
tuxbrainI think wpwrak UBB approach is the most quick and efficient04:07
rjeffriesI do like wpwrak way to attach cable with superglue04:07
tuxbrainI have to test myself how "easy" is to solder to finally make me decide04:08
rjeffriesnot sure best way to handle the breadboard end of the ribbon cable04:08
tuxbrainif I attach some kind of connector or not04:08
rjeffriestuxbrain understood but that drives cost up due to connector cost and assembly.04:09
wolfspraultoo bad cannot find my cable anymore. maybe I gave away one too much.04:10
rjeffriesafter 18 monyjs BNN is well understood as a linux small pocket computer04:10
wolfspraultuxbrain: you have most overview in all these cables, and their applications.04:10
wolfsprauland you also sell arduinos04:10
rjeffrieshaving it ALSO serve in lab environments is all good04:11
wolfspraulso maybe I first focus on the 802.15.4 boards, make 100 of them04:11
wolfspraulthen I want to run them through some tests like we did with milkymist one04:11
rjeffrieswolfspraul I did not thing atBen was even a question04:11
wolfspraulthey are definitely intentional radiators, that's a new level for us04:11
Ornotermeswolfspraul: Whan about a Benduino, an arduino shaped card that can both talk to ben and be programmed directly from it?04:12
tuxbrainwolfspraul: ok you deal with atben, I deal with UBB04:12
Ornotermesmight catch some interest from new groups04:12
rjeffrieswell the complexity of that is about 100x UBB but whatever04:12
wolfspraulsounds good04:12
wolfspraulalso right now I will not make more breakout cables, and werner just said above to hold back on the uart one for a while04:12
tuxbrainOrnotermes: this can be theoretically be done directly with a UBB board and SPI protocol04:13
rjeffriesOrmotermes that is the direction that will interest many people04:13
Ornotermestuxbrain: i know, thats the whole point :)04:13
wolfspraulrjeffries: I can make ubb in a heartbeat. we are discussing how to best parallelize things among us, and how to find actual valuable use cases as quick as possible.04:13
rjeffrieswolspraul so you wnat to pass on UBB even though it is simple04:13
rjeffriesdo you agree of use case for UBB now04:14
wolfspraulof course. do you think I should do something simply because it is simple?04:14
tuxbrainno it don't pass we share the work that must be done04:14
wolfspraulyeah :-)04:14
wolfspraulI am focusing on the milkymist one rc3 run, and then as a second job on the atben and atusb boards.04:14
tuxbrainwolfspraul: fine :)04:15
wolfspraulI can make some more breakout cables, no problem. but I would like to understand the bigger picture, especially how someone like tuxbrain can sell them.04:15
rjeffrieswolfgang I am going to bed. ok too many things on  your plate. tuxbrain let us know how soon you can build ubb04:15
wolfspraultuxbrain: did you get one of those Ornotermes breakout cables I made?04:15
wolfspraulmaybe mirko still has one he can give away and send to you04:15
tuxbrainbut I don't like the final price it reach04:16
wolfspraulin the end those are all small variations of the same thing over and over04:16
wolfspraulunless we integrate an ic (uart) or a ic+antenna (802.15.4)04:16
wolfspraultuxbrain: that's a price for making 10 pieces04:16
tuxbrainI know04:16
rjeffrieswolfspraul do you have an approx number of Bens now in USA04:16
wolfspraulin the whole world nobody can beat that. of course my own time is zero (it's a street job so it has some overhead on my end).04:17
wolfspraultuxbrain: you will have the price problem with all those boards.04:17
wolfspraulthe real issue is not the bom, it's the number of boards you make.04:17
wolfspraulif you make 1000, you will have a good price.04:17
wolfspraulbelow that it gets painful for someone.04:17
wolfspraulrjeffries: roughly 40004:18
rjeffriesso what will you sell the street 8:q0 cable for wolfspraul04:18
wolfspraulI think 12 USD per piece to make 10 of them is awesome.04:18
tuxbrainI think I can have 100 UBB for 120-150¬ here in spain so no shiping no vat added04:18
rjeffriesbut you must mark them up so I assume sell at $2504:18
wolfspraulubb yes, that's just a pcb. you can also try batchpcb.com or pcbcart.com04:18
rjeffriesI am noodling about doing a batch in USA04:19
wolfspraulrjeffries: I give it away, because no matter which way I turn this, I cannot make a business out of it.04:20
rjeffrieswould not make economic sense to ship outside usa04:20
tuxbrainwell, is a maketing strategy to do them in spain also04:20
wolfspraulI mean those 10 I made.04:20
rjeffriesI understand wolfspraul04:20
wolfspraulit's just for fun, on the side, see whether some sparks of creativity or insanity show up somewhere...04:20
rjeffriesthe other thought is how doe we find an entire new market(s) for BNN04:21
rjeffriesonce it can be interfaces, life changes04:21
wolfspraulslowly we are building a nice set of 'stuff' on the 8:10 side04:21
wolfsprauljust someone needs to see the big marketable package somewhere, and go for it04:21
tuxbrainrjeffries: there is only one way, improving software04:21
wolfspraultuxbrain: definitely, ben software needs to support all this stuff out of the box04:22
wolfspraulno recompiling kernel, not even installing this or that package04:22
tuxbrainwolfspraul: patched avrdude form wpwrak should be a must when ubb is ready04:22
wolfspraulI have to work on categorizing file uploads in the wiki.04:22
rjeffriestuxbrain that is happening but I would argue that BNN is good enough now for the stuff I see wher eit is a cheap dedicated master for a sensor/actuator Pod04:22
rjeffriesa NanoPod(tm)04:22
wolfspraulcannot find all those pics of 8:10 boards and cables. 2900 file uploads, most of them uncategorized of course :-)04:23
rjeffriesgood night all. I aplogize for meing enthusiastic about what wpwrak is doing.04:23
wolfspraulwe are all04:23
rjeffriesI will try to do better. wolfspraul whne will you resond to my email of yesterday?04:24
wolfsprauljust saw it (old email address)04:24
wolfspraulchinese new year here04:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: (batchpcb) they only do 1.6 mm boards. you need 0.8 mm for UBB.04:24
wolfspraulyear of rabbit04:24
rjeffrieswhat is correct email pls04:24
wolfspraulbottle of australian red wine next to me. do you really want me to reply now?04:24
rjeffriesok sorry for my mistake04:24
rjeffriesgood night04:24
wolfspraulno no04:24
wolfspraulno mistake04:25
wolfspraulI should setup a forward04:25
tuxbrainaustralian... common nothing like spanish wines man04:25
wolfspraulone for spain!04:25
wolfspraulnext time!04:25
wpwrakspanish wines are nice ... for europe :)04:26
rjeffriesif you desire a decent bottle of wine I live in wine country. although I do understand wines from Argintina are drinkable;)04:28
rjeffriesciao and ducks04:28
wolfspraultuxbrain: maybe the main attraction of ubb is that it can be made at cheap per-unit prices in low volume, low meaning 100-500 units.04:33
wolfspraullike you said you think you can make 100 for 150 EUR04:33
wolfspraulsee whether that drives some NanoNote sales, or whether a bigger use cases emerges that a lot of people go for04:34
wolfspraulthen you can first assemble a set for those people, and at a later point also make more integrated boards.04:34
tuxbrainwolfspraul: yes, low risk and if for whatever reason we succeed and ther is demand for a more finished cable we can move forward but ubb idea is a good thing to start04:34
wolfspraulmakes sense04:34
wolfspraulI will not make 1000 8:10 breakout cables just into the blue, so you can buy 20 from me for 3 USD.04:35
wolfspraulthere are too many variations of this stuff, and the risk that I end up with lots of unsold items of this or that breakout solution is too high.04:35
wolfsprauland you will probably not want to buy 1000 either.04:35
wolfspraulubb may break through that blockage04:36
tuxbrainplus shiping .... I donk think it gonna happen04:36
wolfspraulat 1000 shipping should be OK too04:36
tuxbrainI think the most cleaver is to do it here localy and sold as kit04:36
wolfspraulthen see which use cases emerge04:36
wolfsprauloptimize the kit on your end04:37
tuxbrainyes when we reach the 1k need  sure china will be better source04:37
wolfspraulsmt and testing are nasty at low volumes04:37
wolfspraultesting is actually really bad, maybe a lot of those little somethings are not tested very well actually. don't know.04:38
tuxbrainubb kit = ubb pcd + piece of ribbon cable+ 8 pins female-male conector for breadboard04:38
wolfspraulif I make breakout cables, I need to setup a test station and software, and someone has to test them all, which takes time. then the inevitable failed boards need to be fixed.04:39
wolfspraulnothing can be simple enough to not need testing. well who knows, maybe ubb proves that wrong? :-)04:39
wolfspraulgood thing it is such a simple pcb. there can be so many things wrong with pcbs...04:39
wpwraktuxbrain: does it even make sense to add ribbon cable and connector ? you can't put a huge margin on these, and they should be very easy to source anywhere.04:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: (testing and ubb) if your pcb maker has a yield of anything less than 99.9% on that board, you'll really have to wonder ... :)04:41
wolfspraulI have stopped wondering.04:41
tuxbrainwpwrak:  the most sold item from my shop is the arduino workshop kit, is just a bag with components that you can source any where, but people like it all toguether04:41
wolfsprauleverything that can fail will fail eventually.04:41
wpwrakwell, i could imagine the cnc tool breaking. but they'll notice this :-)04:41
wpwraktuxbrain: okay ;-)04:41
wolfspraulI understand. this pcb is so simple maybe really nothing can go wrong.04:41
wolfspraulbut with a more normal pcb with more layers, microvias etc. many many things can go wrong.04:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: the trickiest part will be to get the first one made. i.e., a) find a pcb maker that accepts it, and b) also delivers something that works. the mechanical tolerances are quite small.04:43
tuxbrainwpwrak: do you have a link or the denomitaion for that ribon cable to find the same on my normal component provider?04:43
wpwraktuxbrain: lemme look it up on digi-key ....04:44
tuxbrainfor 8 pin connector I have those sourced for Arduino04:44
wolfspraulwpwrak: another advantage of my street jobs. the use case is communicated orally, and they can try it out themselves (they know I will return it if it doesn't fit). They can fall back to files or any other manual trick to get those 10 made and sold to me :-)04:45
wpwraktuxbrain: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=MD08R-100-ND04:45
wolfspraulall included in the price...04:45
wpwraktuxbrain:or get the one with 10 conductors and strip two of them. it's a lot cheaper: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AE10G-300-ND04:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, the manual fine-tuning is nice :)04:49
tuxbrainwow lot more cheaper04:50
tuxbrain46$->30m vs 38$->90m04:50
wpwrakthe joy of unusual sizes :)04:50
wpwrakstill more expensive than a shop here in buenos aires, though ;-) they only have basic stuff, but their prices are incredible04:51
tuxbrainI will also search here,04:52
wpwrake.g., this ribbon cable, USD 0.39/m, MOQ 1 m.04:52
wpwrakwolfgang can probably get it for USD 2.30 per 1 ton spool at the corner shop :)04:53
tuxbrainbtw there is gerber/eagle files to pass to the pcb maker? and please don't tellme convert it from kicad :P04:53
wpwrakyes. convert from kicad :) kicad can output gerber.04:53
tuxbrainwell he can ship it to me in the next BNN order04:54
tuxbrainkmon wpwrak, I don't have kicad installed yet...04:54
tuxbrainplease please please...04:54
wpwrakyou better get it installed :) the pcb maker may ask you to make some changes or such.04:57
wpwraktuxbrain: also, this is how the board should be cut: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/edge.pdf04:58
wpwraktuxbrain: i.e., the board edge (after cutting) is at the _center_ of the board edge line.04:59
wpwraktuxbrain: if they don't offset the tool, the board will be too small. if they offset the tool by the tool radius plus half the edge line width, the board will be slightly too big (0.127 mm)05:00
wpwraktuxbrain: if they offset by just the tool radius, it will be perfect.05:00
tuxbrainI don't undesrtand nothing of what you said but I hope the pcb maker will05:00
tuxbrainok offset by the tool radious05:01
wpwraktuxbrain: i've never had a PCB commercially made, so i don't know how they work. may need some iterations to get those bits straight.05:01
tuxbrainwell they can compare with an actual uSD05:02
wpwraktuxbrain: we can give them the measures ;-) 9.6 mm wide at the connector, 11.0 mm wide total. the length isn't so critical.05:03
wpwrak(at the connector) i mean the contacts. the narrowest part.05:03
wpwrakand you can also measure it in kicad :)05:04
wpwraktuxbrain: but if you tell them what it is (in case they can't guess it), give them the gerbers, and http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/edge.pdf05:05
wpwraktuxbrain: then they should understand what needs to be done05:06
tuxbraincan you please sendme the gerber file? please please please please05:06
wpwraktuxbrain: they may or may not do the panelization for you, too05:06
tuxbrainyes they do05:06
tuxbrainthey also will telme how many  per panel and bonificates orders in multiples of05:07
tuxbrainor better said doesn't make you pay for a full panel if you only use part of it05:08
tuxbrainwell whatever, I will retake this after fosdem05:09
tuxbraingoing to prepare bagage and dress devices a little to it's presentation in society (again)05:09
tuxbrainyou have a whole weekend to sendme the gerber :P05:10
tuxbrainI love you man05:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: (bottle of wine) oh, right ! feb 3 is new year's day. happy new year ! ;-)05:14
tuxbrainmmm another topic... BNN+UBB=6bits logic analizer?05:18
tuxbrainand also with arduino ADC +GNUplot simple osciloscope .... uff stop procarstinating and do the ugly work tuxbrain!!!!05:20
wolfspraulwpwrak: thanks! fireworks all around, Chinese do know how to party...05:23
kristianpaulfireworks :-)05:54
kristianpaul(they only have basic stuff, but their prices are incredible) same here, well at least ribbon cable is cheap, thats something i'll never buy from digikey, but who knows05:54
kristianpaul(ubb), who needs that? :-)05:55
tuxbrain_awayyeah real man do his own pcbs ... with a lighter and a nail05:56
kristianpaulJust jump to a 8:10 based board from Werner desgins and make something usefull.. thats better i think05:56
kristianpaulprototype will no be an excuse for ubb, thats why i think05:57
kristianpaulmay be a breakout board in wich you can solder a smat like product ir RFMB12, or some ethernet breakout.. seems more viable for prototyping, at leasy keep you our of troubles from the 8:10 mechanical part ;-)06:00
kristianpaulbut anyway.. i jus started to dream again :-)06:00
tuxbrain_awaymake it biger will only bring mechanical issues, you better create your prototipe you own pcb or in a breadborad and solder or plug the ribon cable, and if it works then go to design a more integrated solution, isn't it a right way of doing things?06:02
kristianpaul[ot] nice, kepler in some years will be more valuable, damn that nasa dont publish telemetry as such us data from their space stuff06:02
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: right way is go straight to PCB i think06:03
kristianpauloh right, i must leave to work, read you in some hrs again :-)06:03
wolfspraulif the main point of ubb is the price, and the fact that it is pcb only, one could still argue to make it bigger and leave footprints for 'different things' on the outside.06:04
wolfsprauldifferent things being maybe different types of headers that people might have, or even some common ics like uart06:05
wolfspraulit's still a bare pcb then, but better starting point and will barely increase the price06:05
kristianpaullike ben based game using and external acelerometer, (take that iphone !! ;))06:05
tuxbrain_awayI'm worrried about mechanical pain, not "allowing" to put more than a cable for me is the best solution to avoid this....06:07
tuxbrain_awayif docking was more solid, I will totally agree on create such a 8:10 breadboard , only with the 8:10 as only atachmentpoint.... I don't see it clear.06:09
wolfspraulI agree it's fragile, very fragile, but to understand what that means one would need to think about the actual use case.06:14
wolfspraulI guess you are not trying to wire up a mobile computing solution that you can wear on you while jogging.06:14
wolfspraulif it's just a quick connection for 20 seconds to reflash something, mechanical stability shouldn't matter much.06:14
wolfspraulalso the question is how tolerant the software on both sides is to interruptions.06:15
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: I trust you will really try this out and push forward only stuff that actually works :-)06:15
wolfspraulso many products are just a 'good idea', but once you try it in real life you find out the (often fatal) downsides quickly. let's not do that.06:16
wpwrak(mechanical) that would also be my concern. also, what do you put on a "general purpose" experiment board ? through-hole components ? that would certainly overload the poor little 8:10 card slot.06:23
wpwrakthis will be the cable for atusb: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusb-pgm-20110203.jpg06:37
wpwrak(well, the pads are too small for the base of the pogo pins. maybe i'll make one with bigger pads.)06:37
steve|mheh, Qi-Hardware mentioned at heise: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Hardware-Upgrade-fuer-Openmoko-Smartphones-geplant-1182783.html08:06
tuxbrainmmm I'm traying to flash nn but I can't !!08:11
tuxbrainError - can't claim XBurst interface: could not claim interface 0: No such file or directory08:11
tuxbrainlsusb reports Bus 001 Device 008: ID 601a:474008:12
tuxbrainI'm doing it under root08:12
wolfspraulstrange error. when did you last flash successfully and what has changed since then?08:17
wolfspraulthe ben still boots?08:18
rohsteve|m: hrhr.. and they didnt understand what project B was... funny.. we didnt either first ;)08:20
tuxbrainben boots yes,08:21
wolfspraulroh: it's sad to see it all go down like this. whole foss approach is discredited for phones thanks to om.08:24
rohwolfspraul: only for the clueless08:24
rohwolfspraul: most foss users i know have a N900 now. seems to be the only platform which gives you a rootshell without much work08:24
wolfspraulnah, perceptions are strong and this one will last for a while, unfortunately. it's not even over yet, gta04...08:25
rohstill its fscking slow due to bad sw08:25
rohwolfspraul: continuing the openmoko naming or concept path is fail by design in my eyes.08:25
wolfspraulthe way things look right now, I don't give meego more than 2 years.08:25
rohboth were impressivly bad08:25
wolfspraulnokia doesn't have the strength anymore to introduce 'another' Linux into the industry08:26
wolfspraulunfortunately, because their Linux would have been better than the other one08:27
wolfspraulthe jury is still out and I very much hope they can make it, but things don't look good08:27
rohif nokia cant do it in the phone market it will get tough.08:27
rohbecause there are only smaller player08:28
wolfspraultuxbrain: just reboot your host and ben, did you try that yet? still have the problem?08:30
wolfspraultry another host08:30
wolfspraultry another ben :-)08:30
wolfspraulI don't remember seeing that particular bug before, sounds like either something on the usb side of the host, or a problem with the stage1/stage2 binaries that are uploaded to the Ben for usbboot flashing.08:31
rohbbl.. need to go print manuals now (still need somebody to pay me my color laserprinter!)08:33
tuxbrainok was the usb port, changing that seems that solves the issue. flashing ...08:37
B_Lizzardtuxbrain, does it work for you then?09:11
tuxbrainB_Lizzard: impresive new jlime graphics dude09:14
tuxbrainthe splash screen, the icons,  really goood09:15
B_LizzardI'll ask xiangfu or kristoffer if they can make me a silent bootloader with a splash screen09:16
tuxbrainbut I find it a litlle bit more slow than usual... (or maybe is that I have not time to play with NN for a while)09:16
B_LizzardSo that the boot process is cleaner09:16
B_LizzardIt's slower to boot on NAND than it is on MicroSD09:16
tuxbrainmmm the miss the swap thing, that will improve a little the performace09:17
roh*sigh* ... these copyshops are crazy09:17
tuxbrainterminal font also has to be reviwed, a little blurry09:17
B_LizzardAh, if you have your swap partition on the second partition of the MicroSD card it'll mount it automatically09:18
roh'no i did not want to buy the machine' was my answer before i left09:18
B_LizzardEveryone says it's blurry09:18
B_LizzardYou old farts09:18
rohtuxbrain: i will never be 'sharp' . but thats not the font. thats the display09:19
rohit does have a RGBRGB... \nBGRBGR..., screen09:19
B_LizzardWell, the font is set in .Xdefaults, I can either make it bigger (*cringe*) or have a non-ttf font.09:19
rohso every second line has Red and Blue swapped in subpixel-position09:19
tuxbrainbut I see it better in previouse releases09:19
tuxbrainand it's the same display09:20
B_LizzardI'll ask rafa what he uses.09:20
roheh. ttf font? stupid idea09:20
B_LizzardYeah, but it looks good for my 20/20 eyes.09:20
rohuse a pixelfont. anything else lootks shitty on such resolutions09:20
B_LizzardOh well, any recommendations?09:21
tuxbrainbattery icon doesn't work yet isn't ?09:24
B_LizzardIt should work09:26
tuxbrainI will try with other batt09:27
B_LizzardWhat's the problem?09:27
B_LizzardIt should change depending on the charge level and whether it's plugged in or no09:27
tuxbrainit mark 0% but is funny when I pull out the bat it says 80% :P09:28
tuxbrainmmm somethings wrong with kernel :(,  I can only read "Fatal exception in iterruptot syncin"09:31
B_LizzardMust be the instability larsc was talking about09:32
tuxbrainafter UBI data offset09:32
B_LizzardLooks good on my NN09:33
tuxbrainmmm it had booted once , why not now? stupid machine09:34
tuxbrainok it boots whithout the usb plugged09:35
tuxbrainyes it's reproducible , if I try to boot with usb plugged it fails09:39
tuxbrainbooting only with bat no problem09:39
B_LizzardUSB plugged into PC?09:40
B_LizzardLemme see.09:40
tuxbrainbooting only with cable also problem09:40
tuxbrainboting only with bat no problem09:40
B_LizzardHeh, boots normally for me.09:41
B_LizzardIn any case, you can flash this kernel which doesn't have usb-net support09:41
tuxbrainnah, I preffer to mantain the usb-net and reboot it unplugged.09:43
wolfspraulroh: sure you know that's a feature not a bug. I think it's called 'delta display', but I forgot the exact term.10:01
wolfspraulit's optimized to supposedly make images, for example as taken by a digital camera, look better10:02
wolfspraulin a console/small pixel font environment it does make things harder, because normal fonts make assumptions about straight lines :-)10:03
rohwolfspraul: its a feature for video display only.10:07
wolfspraulagreed, I'm not saying I like it. we never thought about it in depth back then, we were happy to find an lcm with open datasheet.10:11
rohwolfspraul: sure. :) i know the reasoning.11:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/pads.fpd: added 80 mil / 2 mm circular pad "PAD_80x80" http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/cf1240d11:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb-pgm: changed pogo pad footprint from 60 mil diameter to 80 mil (PAD_80x80) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0e11d5811:56
zrafaroh: some mails from OM ML arrived.. did you do something for that? or miracle? :)15:44
wpwrakzrafa: the openmoko lists seem to be back :)16:05
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. god is a good boy :)16:17
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: zgv: fix thumbnail-less file-browser true-color support ('v' key) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3f2660416:26
kristianpaulalo :-)20:10
wpwrakno mm1 !!20:30
kristianpaultuxbrain: !!!!20:34
kristianpaulbtw androidstamp is intented to use Dalvik  as a basis for robotic platform20:34
kristianpaulcool, addint custom comands to rtems is not so hard, i need learn a bit more about tasks, but yaffs2 support seems so transparent thanks to the lekernel port :-)20:37
kristianpaulwpwrak: may be he dont want to get in inline competion with H:D ;-)20:45
wpwraknaw. we want to see a fight. with live video :)20:54
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