#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-02-02

rjeffriesPamda|x201 where ar eyou located in terms of geography (I am in Calif, usa)00:45
tuxbrainwpwrak: when I grow up I want to be like you, great work dude! (aka ben_8:10_uart +1)01:26
tuxbrainwolfspraul: have you seen it?01:27
tuxbrainhow should be the cost of produce lets say a hundred in china/taiwan?01:27
wolfspraultuxbrain: seen what?01:32
tuxbrain8:10 uart board01:33
tuxbrain http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/01:33
tuxbrainwpwrak: how easy is to access to the serial is right now?01:36
tuxbrainI bet is harder than echo "whatever" > /dev/ben810tty01:37
tuxbrainwow, you have patched avrdude to be able to use sdio as programer :)01:43
tuxbrainwolfspraul: this should be added to default distro asap :)01:44
rjeffriesactually first I have a small work project to finish. when I get that done I'll do that "for fun"02:34
rjeffriessorry that was dupe02:34
rjeffrieswpwrak did some PCB quotes rough estimate (was standard thickness for example) at qty 2 $31/ea02:41
tuxbrainand qty 100 ?02:41
rjeffriesqty 25 $13.50 qty 50 $7.29 qty 100 $3.87 this is VERY very rough but two sided etc02:42
rjeffriesI did not bother with higher qty tomorrow will stry to get a more accurate quote02:44
rjeffriesthe vendor is https://www.protoexpress.com/02:44
rjeffriesI hope that the thiner fiberglass his uart needs will decrease cost02:44
rjeffrieshello David a.k.a. tuxbrain02:44
rjeffrieswhoops there goes our bot02:44
rjeffrieshi xiangfu02:45
xiangfurjeffries: Hi02:45
tuxbrainthanks rjeffries :)02:47
tuxbrainsee you later guys02:47
wolfspraul100 is a very hard number to make, hard economically02:48
rjeffriestoo low02:48
wolfspraulalso it requires smt, another big block of costs02:48
wolfspraulyou will see later :-)02:48
rjeffriesI was really looking at small number for playing around02:49
wolfspraulup to 10 is one path, for little boards like this you solder by hand if at all possible02:49
rjeffriesI am only thinking of PCB fab02:49
wolfspraul100 for this thing is very tough02:49
wolfspraulI made 100 jtag-serial and it cost me 30 USD / pc, not even including the high-speed bug we still haven't fixed.02:49
rjeffriesheh you do NOT understand I was lookig at how to get ONE for me and not have to do the whole PCB DIY is all\02:50
wolfspraulhow do you solder?02:50
wolfspraulhave you made stuff before?02:50
rjeffrieslook you think I am somthething I am not02:50
rjeffriesI personally solder by hand02:50
rjeffriesbut I am aware people do small run smt using simple equipmet02:51
wolfspraulit's a qfn-28, right?02:51
rjeffriesI have to look at all the specs02:51
wolfspraulok anyway your approach is right, the numbers you posted also look right02:52
rjeffriesI am NOt repeat NOT setting up a mfg busines was poking around to get some clue02:52
wolfspraulyes, great!02:52
rjeffrieson wherher I might avoid misery02:52
wolfspraulI like to see familiar numbers :-)02:52
rjeffriesyou are paranoid I think02:52
rjeffriessmall smile02:53
rjeffriesnobody can compete with Taiwan so copyleft is no threat02:53
wolfspraulcould not disagree more02:53
rjeffriesI suspec you may not mfg the werner uart board02:54
wolfsprauldon't know yet. it just arrived on the scene for me.02:54
rjeffriesthose prices were RAW PCB02:54
wolfspraulof course02:54
rjeffriesno assembly although that house will do it02:54
rjeffriesit is a simle board IMO02:54
rjeffriestuxvran (david) has some dreams02:55
wolfspraulyou can very well compete with Taiwan, or China, even if you do everything in or from the US.02:55
rjeffriesmaybe he will make them and I can buy one eventually02:55
wolfspraulI don't know whether the big guys will move out of China one day, but I definitely expect a lot of small startups manufacturing stuff outside China in coming years.02:56
rjeffrieswell the uart board opens the door to Nano talkin to control boards such as various and sundry aduino knockoffs02:56
wolfspraulalong those lines, just quick, I read an interesting comment from HTC a few days ago02:56
wolfspraulthey posted fantastic 2010 numbers, and expect even more growth in 201102:56
wolfspraulmostly Android driven it seems02:56
rjeffriesok no big surprise02:57
wolfspraulbut now - they will double the capacity of their factory near Shanghai02:57
rjeffriesyup they make a great android phone maybe the best02:57
wolfspraulalso no surprise02:57
wolfsprauland - build a new factory in Taiwan!02:57
rjeffriesthat is not a surprise is it02:57
rjeffriesog that is interesting02:57
wolfspraulthat's a big surprise. there has been nothing but a mass exodus in Taiwan the last 10 years.02:57
rjeffriesspreading the risk around I guess02:57
rjeffriesoh OK02:58
wolfspraulso maybe I'm overrating this from a press release, maybe it's just a small experimental line or whatever. but there may also be some bigger strategic thinking behind it.02:58
wolfspraulI found it interesting.02:58
rjeffriesme too. I assumed China shadow is very marge over Taiwan02:58
wolfspraulthe last phone manufacturing in Germany closed many years ago, I believe it was a Motorola line making some high-end (back then) 3G phones02:59
rjeffriesyup US has stupidly moved almost all mfg to China02:59
wolfspraulNokia closed one too, maybe that was the last one.02:59
wolfspraulnot sure about stupid, but yeah. there are very good reasons to do so.02:59
wolfspraulwhere are the non-stupid people then that invest contrarian ? :-)03:00
rjeffriesfor fast turn proto US can compete as you save time and hassle of customs and shipping costs03:00
wolfspraulif work like the one from Werner and copyleft hw in general continues, products like phones, smartphones, tablets, etc will first of all be demystified03:00
wolfspraulfrom there it should not be too big of a step to a real profitable business03:00
rjeffriesoh I understand but in some ways globalization totally sucks03:01
rjeffriesmaybe that is a stretch to me  but also not something I worry about03:01
rjeffriesOn another matter I will email you a couple of questions directly03:02
czrNokia still has a protoline in Salo AFAIK03:15
czrthey closed the main higher-end one in Oulu already some years back03:16
czralso, regarding manuf in china/tw, AFAIK it's not really sane for batches of under 1k03:16
czrand there will always be interesting issues, certainly with higher technology stuff (BGA esp).03:17
rjeffriesczr i worked at a US company that moved all manufacturing to China03:22
rjeffriesit save a lot of money and in general with a LOT of care and feeding03:23
rjeffriesquality was OK to excellent03:23
rjeffriesthey had dense ball grid arrays to yes soldering issues are always a bitch03:23
rjeffriesczr may I ask weher you are on the globe? ;) I am california03:24
tuxbrainI'm back03:24
rjeffriestuxbrain hello03:24
tuxbrainhi, so dreaming hum?03:24
rjeffriesI just sent wolfspraul a letter asking about uart card03:25
czrrjeffries, in Finland03:25
rjeffriesNice place I have visted a few times in an earlier life03:25
czrrjeffries, did you have existing people in China and how large batches did you do?03:25
czrit's nice in the summer. it's winter now. %#$#^#!!1one.03:26
rjeffriesthe compaby where I worked never had on-site person in China.03:26
Action: czr isn't a winter-person03:26
czrhmm. so how did you find the proper factory over there?03:26
rjeffriesbatches were form a fe hundred to a few thousand very complex 8 or more llayer boards03:27
rjeffriestrust me quality was an ongoing issue03:27
czrnarrow pitch?03:27
czrit always is03:27
rjeffriesthe sheet metal was ok03:27
rjeffriesoh yes. our CTO had a rule03:27
czrI guess the main problem would be how to communicate effectively the quality stuff..03:27
rjeffriesif you have any gree showing on the PCB you have not packed enough on it03:28
rjeffriesthe contract manufacturer we used has SOME people with good english skills and who were smart03:28
czrwell, the problem with electronics manuf nowadays is that even if you want to do PCBs locally, it's getting harder and harder now.03:28
rjeffriesbut lots of conference calls were dreadful03:28
czrwe used to have a large electronics manuf industry in finland03:28
rjeffriesyes it is due to environmental and other issues03:29
czrbut all those companies have relocated to china now and pretty much no remaining manuf lines here anymore03:29
rjeffriesbut in medium quantity we can do ok in USA03:29
Action: czr nods03:29
rjeffriesar eyou an EE03:29
czrwe mainly do quite small runs, <50003:29
rjeffrieswhat does your company do if I might sk03:30
czrI don't know what I am really. I interface quite a bit with our electronics designers and handle system level software issues.03:30
czrwe make affordable modular home automation platform/system.03:30
czr(current market is in Finland only, so the web pages are all in finnish: www.ebts.fi)03:30
rjeffriesok cool. I will check it out03:31
rjeffrieswell there is this thing called google translate03:31
czryes there is, but considering the pages are mostly marketing crap, I wouldn't really hold your hopes too high :-).03:31
czrdo ask though, if interested..03:32
rjeffriesok. so what communication method do you use between master and slaves is it wirelss03:32
czrwe don't do wireless since there's no reliable way of doing it03:33
czrwe use a star-topology and all the edge devices are "stupid"03:33
czrwhich keeps the cost down03:33
czrcabling is regular cat, nothing fancy.03:33
czrthis also means that the system isn't really suitable for installs after the house has completed.03:33
czra wireless sensor/switch-thingy is under development, but I'm busy with other crap now, so it will have to wait.. :-)03:34
rjeffriesczr yeah wireless will help for existing residence03:42
Action: czr nods03:43
rjeffrieshave you loked at waht Jee abs is doing?03:43
czrthe main issue we have with wireless is security really.03:43
rjeffriessecurity is a bitch I agree03:43
czrhmm, not seen it03:44
rjeffriesbright guy one man shop very inventive and a nice guy03:45
czrwhat does it use for radio and implementation?03:45
czrwe've been playing around with a custom protol on top of 15.4 hw radio parts03:46
czrprotocol even..03:47
rjeffrieshe uses the HopeRF  or similar chips in 800 Mhz or so03:48
rjeffriesI think 802.15.4 radios is a good idea, that is waht werner is using03:48
rjeffriesfor atBen and atUSB (as you know)03:48
czrI did take a look at them at some point03:49
czrI really liked AT86RF stuff03:49
czrthe problem with that is while it has integrated AES engine, you'd need to pass the data twice over SPI to the chip in order to do the stuff. and it has no integrated key storage so you'd need to pass the key as well over SPI03:50
czrso that kind of blows quite majorly.03:50
czralthough there should be an integrated version of AT86RF and ATmega soon for the euro-band as well.03:50
czryeah, it was a fun project, but as said, been busy with other crap as of late..03:51
czralso, I really need to implement the crypto stuff properly. was thinking of using binary ECC, but its performance really blows03:51
czrso will have to try other stuff.03:51
rjeffriesI had not thought through the security stuff at all03:52
rjeffriesI've been thinking about a non-hostile environment03:53
czrthere are no non-hostile environments with RF.03:53
rjeffriesbut that is naive for many real world situatons such as BUILGING COTROL03:53
czrwhich is why we don't do RF yet03:53
czrin our products I mean.03:53
Action: rjeffries nods03:53
rjeffrieswhy ar eyou endpoint non-intelligent? MCUs are so cheap maybe you did not mean no MCU, just limited intelligence03:54
czrso that we don't have to manufacture them and people are free to choose whichever switches they want according to their interior decoration needs03:55
czrwhile MCUs are "cheap", using MCUs is not.03:55
Action: rjeffries has "limited intelligence" and needs sleep to maintain the small number of remaining brain cells. a neuron is a terrible thing to waste03:56
czrthey need sofrware. they need someone to program them. they need software updates.. etc.. and everything costs.03:56
rjeffriesok I see what you are doing03:56
czryeah, I should really be working anyway.. :-)03:56
czryeah, while from a hobbyist perspective, things are always easy03:56
rjeffriesthose 3rd party switches have mcus but it is not YOUR problem03:56
czrreal life production tends to complicate stuff quite a bit :-).03:56
rjeffriesok nice meeting you and good dat/night/morning hwatever03:57
czrlikewise, night night :-)03:57
czr(haven't had even lunch over here yet)03:57
wpwrakwolfspraul: qfn-28 with a 0.45 mm pitch ;-) but it's not really harder than the usual 0.5 mm.05:07
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes but manually soldering those is in the higher levels of skill05:08
wolfspraulso unless Ron has soldered qfn before, that will already be a major learning blocker for him :-)05:08
wolfspraulnot bad of course, can learn that too...05:08
wpwraktuxbrain: (how easy to use) well, first someone has to write some real firmware. right now, all it does is blink a LED :) doesn't even talk to the host.05:09
tuxbrainthat someone is already assigned?05:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: (higher levels) indeed. takes a bit of practice and a slightly above baseline home lab. nothing overly fancy, though.05:20
wpwraktuxbrain: (assigned) i guess i'll be the default victim :) but only when done/bored with atusb. that uart was mainly to test the programming process on a simple board, where mistakes hurt less.05:21
tuxbrainok understood, something I can do to help you meanwhile just tellme , surelly the anwer will be "now I'm busy, I will do it later" :P05:26
wpwraktuxbrain: that's roughly what i had in mind indeed :-)05:27
wpwraktuxbrain: but you can of course make a board and start hacking. don't have to wait for me :)05:28
tuxbrainha! maximum experiment is to plug an Atmega328 on a bread board and try to mimic the connections with the breakout board, try to compile your patched avrdude, and see what happens05:30
tuxbrainI onli have a really basic soldering iron and no skills for smt05:31
wpwraktuxbrain: yet you build UV boxes for pcb-making ? :)05:32
tuxbrainthat was victor :)05:33
wpwraktuxbrain: ah well, so you have an in-house backup available :)05:33
tuxbrainbut we still have the problem of cut, and soldering05:33
wpwraktuxbrain: the cutting will be a bit tricky. may take a few attempts to get right. you have a few 100 um of acceptable tolerance, though.05:34
tuxbrainhehehe narrow margin for manual cut :P05:35
tuxbrainshit.. the atmegas I have arround are 5V05:36
wpwraktuxbrain: best to make a rough cut with a dremel first, then work the fine details with a knife05:38
wpwraktuxbrain: atmegas that can't do 3.3 V ? wow. are you sure ?05:39
tuxbrainI will review the ATMEGA328P-PU spreadsheet05:40
wpwrak1.8-5.5 V :)05:41
tuxbraingreat then :) experiment is mantained in the todo list :)05:42
tuxbrainArduino lovers will apreciate also to have a portable and cute atmega firmware flasher that can also play tetris :)05:44
tuxbrainand listen music05:44
czrtuxbrain, the voltage defines the max freq05:45
czralso most atmegas don't actually supprot 1.8V, only the PV series AFAIK05:45
czr3.3V is pretty safe all up to ~15-16MHz.05:45
wpwraktuxbrain: now someone has to compose a song to play while flashing the firmware ;-)05:45
tuxbrainmmm but you have given me an idea :), a guided flashing tool, a simple gui front end that tells you where to pinch what , select a file to upload and a tadaaaa! at the end of the flashing this + some arduino edit-compile enviroment even in console, will catch up more than 20.000x2 eyes :) maybe some one can decide also to buy one05:50
steve|mfirmware-flashing via midi? hey, playing notes is way cooler than punchcards05:55
tuxbrainchanging slightly of topic. I prefer female connections in the board if one day you decide to make me one :)05:55
czrsteve|m, considering that midi doesn't even have crc.. :-).05:58
czralthough one could add the crc separately by playing it. check-chord after 4 notes.05:58
zrafawolfspraul: I know at least an artist who just does art. Her work was made for fun, to put the imagination on some paper, etc.. It is just pure art for her.. He would like to show her work to the world if she could. And she is really enjoying doing similar works with some collegues because they do things like workshops or similar (dont know the exact word). BUt well, I would like to tell you that if she needs some day to put some license on her work she w07:51
zrafawolfspraul: And I know that she hates capitalismo and communism as well.. like the stickers.. no capitalism no communism..07:52
zrafawolfspraul: but well, my point is.. if she needs some day to use some license because that is like the things work.. she would like to share the stuff but she would not like to see her stuff for sale. No becuse others could get money, because she hates that and she is not happy with art and money together..07:53
zrafawolfspraul: would not be okey for her some license CC but no for commercial?07:53
zrafaI ask you because it looks like from your last mail you thinks that CC should have never done the non-commercial.. but I think that for some cases maybe it is useful. Still if it is useful for other meanings like the friend of mine (who would not use that license to avoid other to get money, she would use just because her thoughts are not happy with art and money together)07:56
wolfspraulzrafa: I think -nc and -nd are horrible ideas, yes.09:24
wolfspraulthe lawyers who invented them should have interpreted their professional responsibility in such a way as to never create those licenses in the first place.09:24
wolfspraulI doubt the practical enforceability, let's just start somewhere.09:24
Action: kristianpaul saluda09:25
wolfspraulthere has been a lot of chat on this channel about -nc and -nd, no need to repeat even more, the archives should still have it09:26
zrafawolfspraul: no, and I do not want to talk much about that (licenses). :)09:38
zrafawolfspraul: just I was thinking on some usage of that09:38
wpwrakzrafa: -nc is just some expression of paranoia ;-)09:38
qi-bot[commit] kyak: qball: make Enter key work and change fonts http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9da19d409:42
wolfspraullekernel: hi there. do you know the de-bug.de magazine?09:49
lekernelno, I don't09:49
wolfspraulok, I don't know the circulation (number of readers), but I want to take a shot to intro m1 to them, see whether they like it.09:50
wolfspraulI have a good introduction (a journalist who used to write for them years ago). They are in Berlin.09:50
wolfspraulso if it works out and they are interested, maybe you can go there to demo m1 to them?09:50
lekernelyeah go ahead09:51
wolfspraulok, just wanted to check first09:51
wolfspraulI will email them, and basically offer that you go there for a demo (cc you, although I don't know whether I should email in German or English, maybe I email in German)09:52
wolfspraulwhen are you back in Berlin roughly?09:52
lekernelok, i'll be back to Berlin on the 7th09:52
rohwindow 1412:47
xMffwho may I talk to about openwrt libiconv/libintl full/stub issues? I am about to make them switchable but packages needing them need some minor changes13:26
xMffI think I talked to kyak and bartbes the last time but not sure13:27
bartbesyeah, you talked to me13:27
bartbesbut I can only complain ;)13:28
xMffas I've noticed, qi-hardware now pins its feed to a fixed rev which is good, I just want to explain the new conventions for the intl/iconv stuff in case the feeds get updated sometime13:30
wpwrakxMff: kyak was the one who seem to have suffered most. not sure who's actually taking leadership on architectural questions, though13:31
wpwrakxMff: if you're subscribed to discussion@lists.en.qi-hardware.com, that may be a good place to post the conventions13:32
xMffI am not yet but will probably subscribe later13:32
xMffI followed the list through the online archives until now13:32
wpwraki hope everyone who cares reads the list. sometimes they're a little shy with responding :)13:39
kyakxMff: would be good to know about the switchable solution you've mentioned, could you post it in qi-hardware mailing list?13:44
xMffkyak: I'll post a summary13:45
xMffit boils down to an extra indirection and a new menuconfig option13:46
xMffhere's a big changeset which demonstrates the usage: http://luci.subsignal.org/~jow/packages-use-nls.patch - I'll commit that within the next hour13:46
xMffthe gettext-full package is now also fixed13:48
kyakxMff: it's pretty clear on the packages side. A what's the menuconfig option?13:51
xMffits in Global Build Settings, [ ] Compile packages with full langauge support13:51
xMffthe symbol is called CONFIG_BUILD_NLS13:51
xMffa bool13:52
xMffif it is enabled, resulting affected packages will depen on lib{iconv,intl}-full13:53
xMffif its disabled, they're build against the stubs and no opkg dependency arises13:54
xMffI did some compile testing with dbus, gtk, glib2, mpd and they currently build fine with both variants13:54
xMffwill watch for the buildbot results during the next few days to catch new issues that crept in13:55
kyakxMff: thanks a lot, this is great!13:59
kyakxMff: do you think similar can be done to ncurses/ncursesw?14:00
xMffhmm. whats the diff there?14:00
kyakthe thing is, many packages get built against ncurses, which doesn't support wide characters14:01
kyaklike irssi, for instance14:01
kyakso there could be a global flag to build these against wide version of ncurses (i.e. ncursesw)14:01
kyakof, course it would require a big job on packages side, like you did this time14:02
xMffwell, luckily our buildbots now generate a tarball of all config.log files, makes it easy to grep for packages dealing with ncurses14:03
kyakxMff: oh, btw, do you plan to backport this menuconfig flag to backfire?14:04
xMffit already is14:04
xMffI'll see what I can do about ncurses, might take a while though14:12
xMffimo it would make sense to couple it with the same option14:13
kyakyes, sounds reasonable14:13
kyakwe have 15 packages in qi-openwrt-packages that depend on libiconv14:16
kyakhope to test the BUILD_NLS soon, after xiangfu merges latest backfire into qi's git14:17
xMffif you include nls.mk the TARGET_*FLAGS get automatically amended to include -I/-L to whatever iconv implementation14:17
kyakyep, i got it14:17
kyakvery convenient14:17
xMffif you use other options like EXTRA_*FLAGS you have to add $(ICONV_PREFIX) yourself14:17
xMffDEPENDS:=+libiconv +libintl should be replaced with DEPENDS:=$(ICONV_DEPENDS) $(INTL_DEPENDS)14:18
kyakit looks like this process can be automated14:18
kyaknot that it is really necessary to 15 apps...14:18
xMffwell some well-crafted sed commands will do the trick I supposer14:19
kyakdid you crawl through all the packages by hand?14:19
kyakit's more error-prune :)14:20
xMffvim $(rgrep ...)14:20
kyakoh, i meant, less errors by hand :)14:20
xMffyes indeed14:21
xMffbut gets a bit repetitive after a while14:22
kyaktime to sleep now.. thanks again for great efforts!14:23
xMffnp. bye14:23
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