#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-02-01

rjeffrieswolfspraul assuse you saw data I provided on "Made in  ..." issue?00:23
wolfspraulsure, yes00:37
Action: rjeffries nods00:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: in a way, the google translation got the point more clearly: "please do not not participate" ;-)02:42
tuxbrainmmm not not = yes :P02:45
tuxbrainwpwrak: is my uart card ready yet? :P02:46
rjeffriestuxbrain you must be excited by the progress wprak is making on a VERY cool card02:46
tuxbrainI hope you include me in the beta testers this time :)02:46
rjeffrieswhat are some yse cases you see for UART card02:46
tuxbrainmailnly Arduino comm :)02:47
Action: rjeffries nods that could be a biggie02:47
wpwraktuxbrain: not entirely yet. figuring out how much offset i need to add to the mill this time. the first runs ended up too small. they'd probably work, but didn't fit nicely.02:47
rjeffriesI have thought that was a great idea for a long time02:47
wpwraktuxbrain: then it's etching, soldering, and then programming.02:48
tuxbrainalso it open the door to comm with a lot of uart ready modules , like gps and maybe gsm02:48
rjeffriestuxbrain yes indeed Ben Nanonte may hit its stride as small cheap controller for a few things02:49
wpwraktuxbrain: well, flash programming to be precise. i don't care much about the actual "UART" firmware for now. all this is more an exercise for the programming - the uart is a byproduct :)02:49
wpwraktuxbrain: (open the door) and show how to interface an AVR directly with the 8:10 card interface02:49
rjeffrieswprak your uart card uses a small ar correct?02:49
tuxbrainwpwrak: do you plan to flash it trhoug NN02:49
wpwrakrjeffries: an ATmega48-MMU, yes02:50
wpwraktuxbrain: yup02:50
tuxbrainawesome :)02:51
wpwraktuxbrain: it's in ben-blinkenlights, directory uart/02:51
tuxbrainI will take a look later on :) , today is OE +qt messing arround day02:52
tuxbrainAfter fosdem I will plan a NN lastest hacks messing arround day02:52
wpwraktuxbrain: just one day ? :)02:53
rjeffrieswprak does atUSB have an MCU02:55
wpwrakrjeffries: it sure does: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/atusb/pdf_head/USB.pdf02:56
wpwrakhmm, pin 16 looks garbled. seens that my clever "wrap long names" hack didn't work so well02:57
wpwraklooks fine on screen, though02:58
wolfspraulwhy does hackable devices list the m1 as 'out of stock' * David Kuehling wrote an article about Forth on the Ben NanoNote that was published in the 4/2010 issue of German Forth magazine 4th Dimension. [http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-January/007038.html], [http://www.forth-ev.de/repos/vd/4d2010-04.pdf article pdf]02:59
wolfsprauloops, here's the link http://hackable-devices.org/shop/product/milkymist-one-early-developers-kit03:00
wolfspraulI think I more or less finished the 02-01 news, feedback welcome03:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: (hackable) maybe they sold out quickly ?03:04
wpwrak(news) how about mentioning FOSDEM ?03:05
wpwrak(news) hmm, "rssi traffic" isn't quite right. it's just an indication of the signal strength at the various channels. maybe "ben-wpan showing the RSSI of background traffic" ?03:08
wpwrak(or "WLAN traffic", though this could be misunderstood)03:09
rjeffrieswolfspraul when you mention (in news) that Carlos asked "david" to leave project, it is not clear which David. <aybe a last name would be useful03:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: thanks that's exactly the kind of feedback I need03:14
wolfspraulI cannot get the wording right for all those details, unless I really dive deeper myself everywhere...03:14
rohi dont get it at all. how could a project be open if somebody can ask people to leave?03:14
rohsounds very non-open03:14
rohalso.. android has not much to do with foss in general... dont wonder if i kick some project in the nuts here and there ;)03:15
wolfspraulroh: yeah that's pretty amazing, but he really did.03:15
wolfsprauland he also says hardware contributions/specs are not welcome? I still don't fully understand the Spanish, but it seems something like that.03:15
rohpeople applying android show very clearly that somebody has massive disconnect from that foss means.03:16
wpwrakroh: well, you can always ask people to leave ...03:16
wolfspraulroh: don't worry about Android, it will never run on the 64 mb memory this board has, if it's ever even produced.03:16
rohwolfspraul: my bet is that he archieves running their pre-broken kernel03:16
wolfspraulcannot boot on 64mb03:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: (carlos) he basically says that he doesn't want to be bothered by stupid people who don't understand how hard it is to make hardware03:17
wolfspraulroh: we will get through the Android dark age, I think it will end roughly like Java.03:18
wpwrakwolfspraul: (rssi) maybe s/rssi/signal strength/  (unless you prefer the acronym to make it look more mysterious :)03:18
rohwolfspraul: ignore android.03:18
wolfspraulnot more mysterious, but we could add a link to wikipedia or so explaining.03:18
rohwolfspraul: most android devices are gpl violations. we are on it.03:18
wolfspraulhonestly, if I were behind Android, I would have a team working on an Apache-licensed microkernel replacement for the Linux kernel already03:18
rohthe majority of android devices are basically closed and have nothing left of the openness. see them as closed source products03:19
wolfspraulbut it's a spectactular success for Google, exactly as planned. they have excellent people working on it. too bad for the wrong cause :-)03:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: (rssi) even better ! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rssi03:19
rohwolfspraul: it also doesnt solve any of the issues of verticals03:19
rohtheir idea was to 'make it easier' for hw vendors, coders, users03:20
rohits only easier for the user -> lock in03:20
rohthe coder gets broken apis which change in every version like symbian or similar shit before03:20
rohthe hw vendors still have no upgrade path.03:20
roh1.5/1.6 -> 2.x.. there is none. everything just throw-away code. unmergable03:21
wolfspraulwpwrak: beautiful, link added03:21
wolfspraulroh: upgrade path is to throw away device03:21
rohso one doesnt need to go down to licensing or java foo...03:21
wolfspraulcost of devices will come down, I expect most android devices to be < 50 usd within 5 years03:21
wpwrakroh: yeah, the upgrade issues are just beautiful. one could forgive android a lot of the other things, but that's just embarrassing03:21
rohwolfspraul: doesnt make it easier for the vendor to make new products.03:21
wolfspraulwhat doesn't make it easier? throw away is the perfect upgrade path for a hardware manufacturer.03:22
wpwrakwolfspraul: (throw away) so much about the high-margin end of the market :)03:22
rohwolfspraul: he still cannot re-use previous work and experiences. THATS what it was all about when using linux in the first place. not to need to reinvent the wheel every product.03:22
wolfspraulplays to the interests of both the manufacturer as well as user by bringing per-unit cost down.03:22
Action: rjeffries clears throat03:22
rohgoogle failed massively there in my eyes.03:22
wolfspraulroh: embedded is about achieving world records in some field/spec, then being first to market with that and sell on the leadership.03:23
wolfspraulI think Android will work there, why not.03:24
rjeffriesIMO it is a waste of mental energy and perfectly good electrons to spend any time talking about Carlos here. He did what he did, he is pursuing a different Copyleft project, may 1,000 flowers bloom03:24
wolfspraulrjeffries: agreed. does the news item sound negative in any way?03:24
wolfspraulif so, it's not meant like that and we should reword it.03:24
rjeffriesI ws mainly reacting to in-channel talk about Carlos, clearly there is some bad feelings all the way around03:25
wolfspraularen't you the one who keeps saying one can disagree respectfully? :-)03:25
rjeffrieswho gives a damn if he does Android or something else>|.03:25
tuxbrainrjeffries: now you start to understand us?....03:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe make "linuxencaja.net" a link ?03:25
rjeffriesoh absolutrely yes yes and HELL yes03:25
rjeffriesthat is a don't care. I thought you were generous acy=tually03:26
wolfspraulyes, link is always good (there is one at the end of the line already, but let's make another one)03:26
rohwolfspraul: sure. still it doesnt get the profit of linux to either users nor to vendors.03:26
rjeffriesin the open source world these disagreemnets and resulting forks are not rare03:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah ... the numbered references, right. easy to overlook :)03:27
rohwolfspraul: basically it doesnt get any of the strength the type of development can give. thus they failed in my eyes.03:27
rjeffriessince his goals are differnt that yours what the hell,03:27
rjeffrieswprak no I do not think that at all03:27
wolfspraulroh: the strength is just market success, sales, money. (and it fits with google's business model)03:28
rjeffriestime will tell if he has some measure of sucess. since SIE was not core to sharism, it ain't no big deal03:28
rohwolfspraul: well. i couldnt care less. if you ask me, google should have not used linux. spared them a lot of anger03:29
rjeffriesby the way (donning fireproof underwaer) as a marketing gimmick "Android Stamp" is a play on "Basic Stamp. that is not crazy03:29
wpwrakrjeffries: (think that at all) err ... what ?03:29
rohwolfspraul: and would have spared some of their customers a call from a lawyer ;)03:29
rjeffriesit may be misleading until more RAM is glued on that board but it is pretty good marketing03:29
wolfspraulroh: yes. did you read my microkernel comment? I would do some experiments in that direction already...03:29
rjeffrieswpwrak: wolfspraul: ah ... the numbered references, right. easy to overlook :) // nope I saw them and clicked through;)03:31
wolfspraulalright, any more community news feedback?03:31
wolfspraulsomething I forgot?03:31
wolfspraulfosdem is a good idea, but it should be specific, with reference when/where to meet David, Sebastien, Jon03:31
rohwolfspraul: writing tht would been too much work. sure they gain from linux. but only on a very low technical level which a lot of embedded os can give03:31
wpwrakrjeffries: if the thing doesn't actually run android, calling it "androidstamp" seems at least a bit dishonest. kinda as if i'd pick a nick "sexylolita" :)03:32
rohits just sad to see all the additional advantages of foss been thrown away03:32
rjeffrieswpwrak damn. I yjought you were an 18 yr old beautiful woman03:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: (fosdem) or instructions for how to find them :) (e.g., if there are stands, are there also maps ?)03:33
rjeffriesTucbrain could supply the Fosdem info with 10 minutes investment03:33
rohwolfspraul: about your cases.. where should i send them?03:34
rohi am 90% done (another 2 cases to laeser, sorting small stuff)03:34
rjeffrieswolfspraul in terms of community news, would it make sense to give a brief status on how atBen and atUSB are coming alonh with NO shhip date>03:34
wolfspraulsure everything that is well written and interesting and understandable is good. it's just about time. I wrote up this thing so far, it's a wiki...03:35
wpwrakrjeffries: wolfgang doesn't like to have projections in the news :)03:35
wolfspraulsame for fosdem03:35
wolfspraulyes, no announcements, I gladly leave that to others03:35
rjeffriesok I was talking about letting people who do not come to irc know it is moving ali=ong03:36
wpwraknot sure if the (tentative) switch to AVR is newsworthy yet. february 1st is a few days too early for this :)03:36
rohwpwrak: later is a better announce date anyways03:36
wolfspraulthe wiki news page is up for edits an entire month03:36
wolfspraultypically nothing is written up, not even drafts/notes03:36
rohfeb, 1st.. in egypt its revolution time ;)03:36
wolfspraulthen I hurry something up on the last day :-)03:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: you could add a varpourware/gossip column. maybe ron could be its editor ;-)03:37
wolfspraulsure. well written gossip is cool!03:37
wolfspraulbut even that takes time03:37
rjeffrieswprak what convinced you to chnage MCU on atUSB? I am delighte dyou are likely going with AVR but wi=onder what trigged the new direction03:37
wpwraktuxbrain: if you're awake, why not tell wolfgang where people can find you (and maybe other qi-hw folks) at fosdem ?03:38
wolfspraulroh: send to Taiwan, but Adam is out for about a week anyway, so let's talk about that again in a few days when you have it all complete.03:38
rjeffrieswprak you are on thin ice dude. vice that has barely frosen ove maybe 1 cm deep at most03:38
wolfspraulplease edit the wiki page directly, it can't be any easier anymore.03:38
wolfspraulI can postpone pushing out the news over rss for a few more hours, no problem. time for feedback/improvements.03:39
wpwrakrjeffries: mainly avr being a more popular choice in the diy community than silabs. the chip may also be a little more efficient (has hw-assisted spi while i had to bit-bang on the silabs chip)03:39
wolfspraulrjeffries: question for the native speaker. is it "published an introduction to Milkymist One" or "published an introduceion for Milkymist One"?03:39
rjeffrieswprak works for me. I am EXCITED youmay use AVR will increase salebility IMO03:40
rohwolfspraul: ok. so you have no rush because of fosdem?03:40
wolfspraulnot me, that's bearstech03:40
rohok. thanks. will care about that first then ;)03:41
wolfspraulI do want my 10 asap, but no need to stress out on your end.03:41
rjeffrieswoldspraul either usage is proper I prefer "tO slight over "for"03:41
wolfspraulonce I have them, I will start selling complete products only.03:41
wolfspraulwell, some more work needed, like a new box.03:41
rjeffries"Madein Taiwan" (I could ~NOT~ resist)03:41
wolfspraulroh: yes definitely. bearstech first.03:41
wolfspraulI will fill in some data there, see how it works/looks03:42
wolfspraulI am not 100% sure about sourcemap.org yet, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt.03:42
rjeffriesthat is very cool but will not satisfy customs. but you will learn. no problemo03:42
wolfspraulabsolutely no problem. if a second 'made in taiwan' sticker is needed to pass certain customs, we will glue it all over for those guys, left, right, power adapter, everywhere.03:44
rjeffriesI am late to bed03:44
rjeffriesyou need Made in Taiwan. You will see.03:44
wpwrakrjeffries: most customers probably don't really care where it's made. they only get pissed off if it gets stuck at customs :)03:44
rjeffrieshave fun, make a gazillion dollars03:44
rjeffriesthat is what I am saying this is not end user issue it is customs.03:44
wolfspraulI put a few loose 'made in abc' stickers into the box!03:45
rjeffriesbut I shall not beat a dead horse. nope03:45
wolfspraul'made in usa' 'made in germany' 'made in taiwan'03:45
wolfspraulhow about that?03:45
rjeffriesthat does not work as I am sure you know03:45
wolfspraulthen it can be used as needed?03:45
rjeffriesthat would be a great way to fuck it up.03:45
rjeffriesnew topic briefly?03:46
rjeffriesI will be at a VC meeting Thursday, just seeing lay of the land.03:46
wpwrakrjeffries: in german, we have a saying "if the donkey feels too confident, he goes on the ice"03:46
rjeffriesdo you have a business plan you would show a potential investor?03:47
rjeffriessay you mainly want to commercialize MM (I have no idea)03:47
wolfspraulno. print one page, just write 'contrarian' in big letters. see whether there is a true contrarian among them. otherwise no need to waste time.03:48
rjeffrieswhat is investment, what is payback, how long does it take03:48
rjeffriesthey want a nice payback as you know03:48
wolfspraul90% of vcs are greed driven, forget those03:48
rohwpwrak: hrhr03:48
wolfspraulthey are into zynga and what not right now03:48
Action: roh doesnt like VC . bad experiences03:48
rjeffrieswolfspraul VC busines is business. risks are high, most startups fail, they have to make good money on their wins03:49
wolfspraulrecession? great: let's invest in gambling and alcohol, that will grow. they are even proud of such ingenuity.03:49
rjeffriesoh I don't like VCs either03:49
wolfspraulI like to work with serious investors, don't get me wrong.03:49
rjeffriesthat is a valid position.03:49
wolfspraulfor the most part what copyleft hardware needs is a strong marketing partner03:49
wolfspraulsales channel03:50
wolfspraula clear vision and plan to grow a brand03:50
wolfspraulwe have some good ingredients for that, but it lacks execution03:50
rjeffriesmaybe wolfsproul can rob banks at night to finance dsharisim at work03:50
rjeffriesI am JOKING people.03:50
wolfspraulmaybe there are vertical markets with strong brands that could be interested. mobility, medical, furniture even.03:51
rjeffriesangels investors want to see a simple business plan ofcourse03:51
wolfspraulbuy low, sell high03:51
wpwrakrjeffries: he does seem to show a certain destructive streak lately, doesn't he ? doesn't want money, seeks trouble with customs, ...03:51
rjeffrieswolfspraul those may be potential markets,03:51
rohrjeffries: in general: i dont like people working with not their own money.03:52
rjeffriesyeah I am a professional pain in the ass. and worth every cent you pay me. ;)03:52
rohrjeffries: so if somebody is rich and wants to invest its fine. if its a banker, i cannot care less.03:52
wolfspraulI am as clear as hell on the business plan, no need to kid around about it. but many vcs are simply into those viral addictive things, make money quick and run.03:52
wolfspraulrjeffries: strong marketing partner, that's what we need.03:52
rohwolfspraul: some? ALL.03:53
wolfspraulwe only have some raw diamonds right now, nothing more.03:53
wpwrakroh: i very much love to not work with my own money :)03:53
rjeffriesroh that's cool. works especially well if you can bootstart real cheaply and start getting positive cash flow and build unit volume so you improve gross margins03:53
rohwolfspraul: none of the vcs has any interrest in technology, or ideals. they only want money.03:53
rohrjeffries: sure. i do all my stuff from 'gain' .. i dont like having debt.03:54
rohrjeffries: to be fair: i see business building on debt as a bad idea in itself.03:54
rjeffriesroh I appreciate the zeal for ideals. and will leave now becaus emy throat is sore *ongoing cold) and it is way past my bedtim03:54
rjeffriesroh I pretty much agree on that principle03:54
rohheh. its 10 to 10am here ;)03:54
wpwrakrjeffries: for a "roadmap", maybe this can give you an idea: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/timeline.pdf03:55
wpwrakrjeffries: not that it's overly accurate or up to date. more a rough projection i did a while ago.03:55
rjeffriesroh forgive me, where ar eyou located? it takes me a while to remember03:55
rohberlin, old europe03:55
wolfspraulthere is room for strong new businesses around free software and free data03:55
wolfspraulabove and below software03:55
rjeffriesagree. I have a software idea cooking as we speak.03:56
wolfspraulshould be a no-brainer in hardware, really :-)03:56
rjeffriesnot boiling, more of a simmer.03:56
wolfsprauljust need to get it running. of course 1100 nanos is not enough.03:56
wolfspraulwe'll see.03:56
wolfspraulrjeffries: let us know how it went.03:56
rjeffrieswpwrak I will grab that document and read over morning cofee03:57
wpwrakroh: (work on debt) consider it a question of distributing the risk03:57
wpwrakrjeffries: it's just a graph :) not a biz plan03:57
rjeffriesalready opened it03:57
wpwrakwell, SIEv3 should be removed now :)03:57
wpwrakand xue probably too. how fast things change :)03:58
rjeffriessince SIE is now ancient history, what happens to that camera card? that has potential03:58
rjeffriesis xue the camera?03:58
wpwrakxue is the camera, yes03:58
wpwraksort of fell asleep03:58
rjeffriesyou know what? that is all good. wolf can not manage that many things with his staff03:58
rohwpwrak: well.. i see that as a very essential groundlaying concept.03:58
rohwpwrak: the us and most of the western worlds business is built on debt.03:59
rjeffriesBen sales could improve when it has wpwrak's RF modules and this cool new uart card03:59
rohand some crazy people like me dont like that and work on a debit concept. have what you invenst. invest only what you can risk. gives much more continuity and is also less math ;)04:00
Action: tuxbrain agrees with rjeffries.... this happens too often lately :P04:00
rjeffrieshell it should be sold by Adafruit I am serious. naturally they'd need to sell Ben at a profit04:00
wpwrakroh: if you make enough money, you can always buy out the others, if you want. if you don't, you'll be happy that someone with a few MUSD more of disposable money that you is footing the bill, no ?04:00
rohwpwrak: some millions would be nice. but please make it real money not us$ ;)04:01
wpwraktuxbrain: wolfgang needs a bit of FOSDEM info for the monthly news04:01
tuxbrain(fosdem) yes I will have a stand04:01
wpwraktuxbrain: how does someone who goes there find you ?04:01
rjeffriesok gentlemen (and that includes YOU wpwrak;))) I amg turning out the lights. sG'nite04:01
tuxbrainbut I don't know where is placed I will take a look and come back later04:01
wpwraktuxbrain: and what will be on display at the stand ?04:01
wpwrakroh: you just have to spend 'em quickly :)04:02
tuxbrainNN, M1, rugged PDA, and me :)04:02
wpwrak"tuxbrain with nn, mm1, and more"04:03
wolfspraulrjeffries: can you talk to adafruit?04:03
wolfspraulthey have a different business model, you will find out :-)04:04
wolfspraulin the end we (qi/copyleft hardware) believe in the strength of free software04:04
wolfsprauland just sell the matching silicon/plastics for it04:04
rohwolfspraul: different in what way?04:04
wpwrakroh: maybe their real business is the selling of canned meat of orphan baby seals cooked alive, and the rest is just a front ? ;-)04:06
wolfspraulnot sure I never talked to them personally. my feeling is the real margins are in capacitors (for example) they can source for .1 cent and sell for 3 USD.04:06
wolfspraulthe 'products' are just loss leaders04:07
wolfspraulthat's how a large part of the arduino ecosystem works04:07
wolfspraulbuy an arduino for 30 usd, that's just the start. by the time you have an installation that works you spent several hundred USD, and all of those little things you bought at huge margins.04:07
wolfspraul(sparkfun is big with arduino, not adafruit)04:08
wolfspraulanyway we need to talk to them, listen to what they say04:08
wolfspraulour technology is open :-)04:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: so ... should i add a special antenna connector to ben-wpan ? :)04:08
rohwolfspraul: ack.04:08
wpwrakthere are some nice ones that are quite tricky to source;-)04:09
wolfspraulI try to sell products with the strength of the actual product, and ease of use end-user experience.04:09
wolfspraulnot very successful to date though :-)04:09
wolfspraulmaybe selling little things I source for 1 cent for x usd, and organizing a little party around that is a more successful model :-)04:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah. products still need a bit more polishing. for mm1, this means time and developers. for nanonote, it means a new device. new device means negative money ...04:10
wpwrakaha ! that's why my mill produces junk. the coordinates are wrong ! now, who's doing that, and why ...04:29
lekernelkristianpaul: where can I find the datasheet of your sige evb?04:32
tuxbrainadded fosdem tip on news, I know jon and others will be there but I don't know where they will be ... I you want to use Tuxbrain corner as qi-hardware  Meetitng Point  for me is ok :)04:34
wpwraktuxbrain: "in" Brussels ? and  sharing "a" stand ? (i think you could say "share stand", but it sounds a little odd. not sure if that's intentional.)04:39
rohanybody a clue of french mailfoo?04:39
tuxbrainwpwrak: fixed :)04:40
lekernelroh: huh?04:40
wpwrakroh: le main, la lettre, le timbre, ... ?04:41
lekernelwpwrak: courrier04:41
lekernelwe don't say "mail" except to refer to e-mail (people from Quebec say "courriel")04:42
wpwraklekernel: \'electronique ;-)04:42
wpwraklekernel: the quebecois speak weird :)04:43
jluistuxbrain: usually Hackable-devices is near the job-corner http://fosdem.org/news/job-corner05:04
rohthe question basically is: what carrier do i use to mail the stuff to H:D ?05:05
wpwrakroh: ask them ?05:30
lekernelroh: there are tons of them, depends what service you and they need05:38
lekernelyou can use regular post, which is the cheapest but also the slowest05:38
lekernelor, there is DHL, Fedex, UPS and others, which are faster and provide good tracking, but are also very expensive05:39
rohlekernel: hm. dhl is regular post here05:47
lekernelis there any "regular" post in Germany...? :)05:47
rohthe question is rather: does it arrive in time if i send it out tomorrow05:47
lekernelwith fedex/ups definitely, with others maybe, I'm not sure05:48
lekerneli'd go with fedex or ups05:49
lekernelbut ask them05:49
lekernelor find someone who's going to Brussels from Berlin...05:49
rohgood idea.05:50
kristianpaul"Apache-licensed microkernel replacement for the Linux kernel already" wee :-)06:04
wolfspraulI pushed the 02-01 news out, thanks for all the help everybody!07:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: thanks for keeping the news flowing !07:41
wolfspraulnah we need to do MUCH more07:42
wolfspraul335 subscribers on the discussion list now, 900 on the announce list07:44
kyakas much as the first lot of Ben!07:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: (more) that i agree with :)07:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: if you still have energy left for today, how about a business plan ? even if you don't like traditional investors, you'll get asked for that by anyone. (well, except if you run into a fairy that grants you three wishes, no questions asked :) should also help with your own planning.07:48
wpwraksome other area that needs a bit of work seems to be what i'd call "DIY extension"07:49
wpwrakseems that when someone does something hardware-wise, everyone expects the only way to benefit from this is via sharism07:50
wolfsprauldon't understand07:50
wolfspraulyou mean they think only sharism ltd. can manufacture the stuff?07:50
wpwrakit shouldn't be like this. e.g., some things are very diy-able and within the reach of many hobbyists07:50
wpwrakall the talk about arduino has me wondering. it's odd that everyone seems to be missing connectivity there, yet they all wait for someone else to solve these relatively simple problems07:51
wpwrakstarting with the breakout board. in its simplest incarnation, it would be a bare piece of pcb to which you solder stuff. 100% locally sourceable, wherever you are. as Ornotermes has proven, also DIY-able without fancy machinery.07:53
wpwrakyet, where are the cool circuits with breakout boards ? maybe SPI to an arduino or whatever.07:54
wolfspraulI think the number of people who actually want that is very very small.07:55
wpwrakso either this falls on the wrong side of people's cost/benefit calculation, or it's perceived as harder than it is, or it's not as hotly in demand as it seems, or we've simply not reached the group of people who would do such things.07:55
wpwrak(small) yeah, i do't know the arduino. but there are other DIY circuits that would benefit from exactly the same technology.07:56
wpwrakso why isn't anyone using their ben as an embedded controller ? i think it's great for this.07:57
wolfspraulwhere would people look for and buy an embedded controller?07:58
wolfspraultuxbrain is the one that would know most about this07:58
wolfspraulhe is the only nanonote/arduino crossover :-)07:58
rohwpwrak: i think the next ben ('ya' ?) should feature some extension connector07:58
wpwrakfor DIY projects, most people probably try to use a PC in one way or another. then have an MCU for the real work.07:59
rohfree gpio, atleast one irq, i2c, spi.. something like that.07:59
rohnew geek port. with a plastic cover for those not using it.07:59
tuxbrainwolfspraul: not the only one , but at least I admit it publicy :P07:59
rohthe nanonote would have made a nice controlling-computer for stuff like the reprap07:59
wpwrakroh: the 8:10 card is already quite nice. six signals plus power. one of the signals can be a very precise configurable clock. does it get any better ? :)07:59
rohwpwrak: 8:10 is to 'flimsy' for normal peoples hacking level ;)08:00
tuxbraindefine embedded controller08:00
rohwpwrak: and too slow for some stuff (needs external cpu again for timing)08:00
wpwrakroh: (slow) if precision timing is an issue, yes. but it also gives you an "easy" start in cases where your timing is less critical.08:01
zrafaroh: do you know how I could fill a bug or claim for the openmoko ML down ?08:03
zrafaroh: or where to do that?08:03
wpwrak(flimsy) some way of locking the card maybe be useful, so that it can't get pulled/shaken out so easily. the contacts seems to be quite okay. designed for many insertions, relativelt generous spacing. could be a lot worse.08:03
rohzrafa: in the admin-trac08:04
wpwraktuxbrain: (embedded controller) can be at several levels. e.g., the one that talks to a sensor/actuator.08:04
rohzrafa: i got a mail about that but havent had time to care yet08:05
wpwraktuxbrain: or the one that talks to a lower-level processor. e.g., have the UI on the ben, let some avr worry about creating those precisely 1.537 ms pulses.08:05
tuxbrainI supose farnell, digikey, or mouser can have those things? isn't it?08:06
zrafaroh: but you are doing that just on your free time right? I mean, it is not a paid job. I would like to know if there is somebody in charge of that.. THe owner is still Sean or somebody else? (or the guy who pays the space for the wiki etc).. Maybe it is just a free service now?08:06
wpwraktuxbrain: well, they have eval boards. but it's more a system decision. some people just add displays and buttons to their microcontrollers and make them self-sufficient. others hook them up to the pc somehow.08:07
rohzrafa: sean stopped paying. basically everything that is still there is community funded effort08:07
wpwraktuxbrain: hooking up to the pc is already tricky. either you use something from ftdi or you have to deal with a "real" USB device (which is probably overwhelming for most hobbyists), or try to connect to a legacy interface, like parallel printer port or rs-232.08:08
zrafaroh: but somebody is paying yet or not? (or community has some donations maybe?). Or it is just there because you and others do a bit of free effort to keep that08:08
rohzrafa: i think the last bill was paid by harald08:09
zrafaroh: :(08:09
rohzrafa: so its more 'the private will of a few' than broad support08:09
zrafaroh: yeat, I see08:09
wpwraktuxbrain: the latter two are a) messy and b) increasingly difficult to do. e.g., big-banging over serial used to be possible. now that more and more systems are legacy-free (e.g., laptops), you need a usb dongle, which is very slow for bit-banging.08:09
rohif we find a way to fund the ~100E or so a month for the hosting would be nice. moving all the services would be loads of pain and eat that many hours that we keeping the hosting we have is 'cheaper'08:10
wpwrakzrafa, roh: openmoko.org mail per se works fine. so things can't be too bad :)08:10
zrafawpwrak: well, mailing list is not working since a lot of days ago08:11
rohwpwrak: i'll discuss it with gismo and see then.08:11
zrafawpwrak: so nobody is gettings mails from community08:11
zrafawpwrak: so all the people will simply leave08:11
zrafawpwrak: forced08:11
wpwrakzrafa: that doesn't sound good, agreed08:11
Action: roh is distracted by events in egypt08:12
zrafawpwrak: you have wiki and mail service for people with @openmoko.org address (I guess that you are the only one there :) )08:12
zrafawpwrak: ML are dead and projects as well08:12
zrafawpwrak: people could use the irc a bit.. but the irc does not have all the people who was interested in openmoko ..08:13
wpwrakhmm, am i ? that would be bad08:13
zrafawpwrak: wiki is for all, mail service I mean. No sure who else uses @openmoko.org these days :)08:13
tuxbrainanother "smart" move of Sean... they still selling something under openmoko brand?08:15
zrafawpwrak: and community ML has been having a good amount of mails lately.. qtmoko is alive.. I saw some shr mails as well. Also the gta04 privated project.. and several people talking about different kind of things08:15
zrafawpwrak: but now.. all of that is down.. so people enjoying yet the community is forced to leave without chance to know what to do :)08:16
wolfspraulroh: egypt is amazing, agreed. especially from my beijing perspective.08:16
rohwolfspraul: do you get aljazeera english?08:17
wpwrak(having a peek at egypt)08:17
wolfspraulof course 'egypt' is already censored here, although the govt personnel flat out lies about it saying the "chinese internet is open" (!)08:17
wolfspraulthey did learn the 'open' word means you are one of the good guys08:17
wolfspraulno matter how much blood you have on your hands08:17
wolfspraulchinese progress, I guess08:17
wolfspraulroh: no I am not following that closely.08:17
wolfspraulI get everything, I am on a 100% openvpn tunnel to Germany.08:18
wpwrakand it seems to have reached jordan as well. major domino effect.08:18
wolfspraulbut they play tricks with encrypted traffic already, all sorts of things08:18
wolfspraulartificial packet loss, packet delays, certain tls handshake packets just not getting through at all, etc.08:18
wolfsprauleverything imaginable08:19
wolfspraulwell, "the chinese internet is open"08:19
wolfspraulopen for the criminals to manipulate, yeah08:19
wpwrakzrafa: if roh and gismo don't have time to fix it, maybe they could let you have a look ?08:19
kyakwolfspraul: though you are kind of encrypted now, don't forget about the public logging08:19
wolfsprauloh I am in no way at all worried about my free speech08:20
wolfspraulwe are many more, don't forget :-)08:20
wolfspraulif the chinese govt decides to single me out and come after me, nothing will stop them anyway. but it won't happen, their resources are very limited.08:20
rohwolfspraul: i think as long as one isnt active politically you should be fine08:21
zrafawpwrak: no sure if I have time :( .. but at least we could ask on openmoko devel irc. If somebody well known is okey to help it could be good for ML08:22
zrafawpwrak: of course, if roh and gismo are okey with that08:22
rohzrafa: i am sure we can work something out. forming a new, bigger team would help, yes.08:22
rohstill i think it would be important to guide someone in there. quite some quirks and side-effects to know about the kind of setup08:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: just start blogging in chinese and they'll get very interested in you :)08:23
roh'tangled' sw ;I)08:23
wolfspraulsure, if I would blog in Chinese - not good. but even then it would take time for me to become better known, would need some of the know dissidents to link to my blog :-)08:24
wolfspraulalso of course if I would go to tiananmen square, just with a strange smile - not good08:24
wolfspraulforeigners are mostly kicked out though, 5 year ban from reentry08:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: nice and simple08:25
wolfspraulkyak: if you have time and want to read a very detailed report of how it is if the chinese govt does decide to spend some resources to keep you in check, read this http://www.hrichina.org/public/contents/press?revision_id=192059&item_id=19194708:25
wolfspraulbut you need to be in the a-list of dissidents to deserve such treatment :-)08:25
wpwrakso, seems that i've found the right correction for cutting the uart board. i'm not quite sure what sort of physics i have that -10 mil deflection to thank for, but it i just accept it without asking why, the dimensions are right.08:26
wolfspraulin this case Ding Zilin, a very noble retired philosophy professor whose sun was killed in 198908:27
wolfspraulshe would have been another good choice for nobel peace prize. she's the founder of tiananmen mothers.08:27
kyakwolfspraul: sure, thanks.. i'll read it08:27
wolfspraulanyway, I'm on 100% openvpn and I'm fine :-) yes, I can confirm what the govt is saying "the chinese internet is open"08:28
wolfspraul(with openvpn)08:28
wolfspraulbtw, the censorship is so bad that any foss hacker cannot work inside china without vpn08:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: if you can state this on state tv and swallow the part in the parentheses, they may give you a medal :)08:28
wolfspraulso many mailing list archives are blocked, maybe 50% of random tech searches I would do on a regular day in google08:28
kyakwolfspraul: it sounds like working in some big corporation :)08:29
wolfspraulwpwrak: oh sure. they are very smart in how to stay in power. they pride themselves on that, no sweat right now. egypt censored, done.08:29
kyakwolfspraul: are you sure German government, or special service or whatever is not blocking anything?08:30
rohkyak: not possible to hide easily. germany is quite well webbed08:32
wolfspraulin Germany anything like this is just unimaginable08:35
wolfspraulthat would be a huge huge scandal with lots of officials stepping down08:36
rohthe internet shutdown in egypt also was reportet first to me by friends who 'do run tor'08:36
rohwolfspraul: shutting down the internet like in egypt wouldn be that easy to do and also meet much more barriers, technically as well as personal and juristic. besides that this would cripple economy in a way that it would be synonymous to a war declaration of the government against all businesses and civil society.08:37
wpwrakroh: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Oesterreich-bereitet-Kill-Switch-fuer-das-Internet-vor-Update-1181448.html08:55
tuxbrainwpwrak: I was thining... if you where able to flash a through a the sdio, this also means you can flash the ATmega family chips with a board exposing sdio  a breadboard and some cables?08:55
wpwrakroh: kinda anachronistic ;-)08:55
tuxbrainthining-> thinking08:56
wpwraktuxbrain: not sdio, but a the serial programming signals, yes08:56
tuxbrainat least those 3V308:56
wpwraktuxbrain: the uart board is in fact just a test for that. i'll need it for atusb.08:56
tuxbrainonce you have done I will want to try it with a ATmega23808:57
tuxbrainwe have to see how to accel the 8:10 expander  DIY hacking interface08:59
tuxbrainwolf you have done finlly those 8:10 nude boards?09:00
wpwraktuxbrain: i was actually wondering why you're not making "8::10 nude" boards :) in the simplest case, you just need a little pcb with the 8:10 contacts on one side and some solder pads on the other side. that's a rather trivial project :)09:02
tuxbrainand what are we waiting for?09:03
wpwraktuxbrain: i don't know, what are you waiting for ? ;-) the design files and such have been around for months09:05
rohtuxbrain: wpwrak says: he wouldnt need to etch them himself if you would sell em ;)09:06
wpwrakroh: naw, i make mine a bit more sophisticated and put the whole circuit on the 8:10 card :) but then i'm a little obsessed with making things small. others don't necessarily have to share that obsession ;-)09:09
tuxbrainlastest news I have about it is that wolfgang was searching for sourcing some of them but I don't know in was state is that or if there is something like money that has stop that thing,09:12
tuxbrainwatever please pointme to the right file I have to forward to a local board maker, to have a qoute on how much can cost me to do some.09:13
wpwraktuxbrain: wolfgang was making some boards with a cable. something like these, but nicer: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/f32x/c2ben-run1.jpg09:14
tuxbrainyes but I know nothing about this for some time,09:15
wpwraktuxbrain: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/components/8_10-card.lib09:15
wpwraktuxbrain: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/kicad-libs/source/tree/master/modules/8_10-card.fpd09:15
tuxbrainwith what soft has that to be opened, rememeber I'm just a shopkeer09:16
zrafawpwrak: (a little obsessed with making things small): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atben-20110123-side.jpg  Nahhh... ;-))09:17
tuxbrainwell whatever09:17
wpwraktuxbrain: (that's all. ben-blinkenlights/uart would be a recent usage example. or ben-wpan/atben, of course. the uart is slightly nicer, because i used metric grid. but this in turn means that there are rounding errors in the gerbers. not sure if your pcb maker would have a problem with that or not))09:17
wpwrakzrafa: yeah. i admit, atben is now frighteningly large :-(09:17
wpwrakzrafa: if we make a 2nd generation, i want a 4-layer board and microvias. then you'll see how small this can really get :)09:18
zrafawpwrak: WHAT??... I do not see free space on the board.. I was just kidding. I can not believe how fit are all the components (from an 0 skills guy point of view)09:18
wpwraktuxbrain: the .lib with kicad (eeschema). the .fpd first needs converting with fped, then access the resulting .mod file with kicad (pcbnew)09:19
wpwrakzrafa: a lot of space is used by traces. on a multilayer board, they could be hidden :)09:19
zrafawpwrak: if any hw hobbist would do a new atben it would be 5 times bigger09:19
zrafaI am sur09:19
wpwrakzrafa: i think you'll like the uart board :) won't take long, i hope09:21
zrafatuxbrain2: your answers on ML just writting "+1" or "great :)" on the body of the mail does me to remember the manager guys of the big companies who think that doing that will improve the optimism and energy of their emploees :P09:24
zrafatuxbrain2: and of course, those managers do not have time to write or think something better for that (and maybe they did not check the work made properly). Sorry.. I worked for some few big ones and they were doing that :P09:26
tuxbrain2zrafa: well I was just noticing I have read this and I just remember I have not give greetings to Jane for his work09:26
wpwrakzrafa: he's planning ahead for when tuxbrain will also be a big company :)09:27
tuxbrain2and yes I'm surelly one of this kinds of bosses right now :P no time for writing more that that09:27
tuxbrain2hehehehe bastards09:28
zrafanow Jane will stop doing nice work09:28
zrafabecause the effect is the contrary, of course. It is not like the managers read on the "good manager" book09:30
wpwrakit would actually be even nicer if she used a process that could be automated. of course, wolfgang can those two bags he's buying for USD 8 apiece to the army of chinese workers he finds right waiting at the backdoor, and then have 2 millions made for a tenth of a cent each :)09:30
wpwrakzrafa: but when they retire, they write one :)09:30
tuxbrain2I firstly see that +1 notation in the openmoko mailing list09:32
tuxbrain2I like it and make it mine, I don't have read such good manager books.... scary09:33
tuxbrain2so since then if +1 was so autostima destroyer ... I hould have ruined aaaloot of projects :P09:34
zrafawell, I think that it is not the "+1" itself.. the amount of words and letters written does the bad effect for EMPLOYEES09:36
wpwrakzrafa: hmm, dunno. sometimes more words only make it worse :)09:37
tuxbrain2ok I will remember to not +1ing you if you become some day my employee :)09:37
wpwrakzrafa: i think the ideal situation is if manager simply let you do your job and stay quiet ;-)09:37
Mauro_Rwpwrak: '4-layer board and microvias', you will need a microscope to work on it :-)09:39
zrafawpwrak: I am speaking for my experience. It is not a rule, and I have not been affected never for long of ultra short two letters mails. I just saw that on employees who were working for a really long time for some goal and got that as answer form their bosses. I have not worked for a long time on just one project (no good for that) :P09:39
Mauro_Rwpwrak: btw excellent job ..09:39
zrafalong of ultra short= long or ultra short09:39
wpwrakzrafa: ah, i see. yeah, for a larger project, that's a little terse.09:40
wpwrakMauro_R: thanks :) 4 layer may actually be less crowded, because one can sends things to another layer09:41
Mauro_Rwpwrak: the 4 layer could be applied with the same width of board?09:58
wpwrakMauro_R: width or thickness ? in any case, yes :)09:59
wpwrakMauro_R: of course, i couldn't build a multilayer board at home10:00
Mauro_Rwpwrak: thickness is the right word, sorry :-)10:02
wolfspraultuxbrain2: I made 10 8:10 breakout cables, gave away a few here and there, nothing much came from it so it fizzled out10:27
B_Lizzardtuxbrain/tuxbrain2: I made a ubi image with a couple of games and some example files inside...10:28
kristianpaulwolfspraul: did you wired that 8:10 breakout cable with the RFM12B?10:32
kristianpaulwolfspraul: what are your plans/ideas with microkernels?,i saw your comments before10:33
kristianpaulah nothing much, is that rfm12b plus 8:10 breakout a result of that then..10:33
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I have no microkernel ideas, that was pure android speculation.10:51
wolfspraulkristianpaul: mirko vogt indeed wired up one of those cables to a hoperf module http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Rfm12_microsd.jpg10:52
wolfspraulbut I think it doesn't work yet10:52
wolfspraulkristianpaul: didn't I send one of them to you as well?10:52
wolfspraulI forgot where I sent them. I gave all away. Maybe I have one left for myself.10:52
kristianpaulyeah i got one,i think i'll wire it to my rfm12 chip aswell, in a easy removable way11:30
kristianpaulah yes mirko told that time ago. bad memory i have..11:31
kristianpaulhey GNUtoo :')11:56
kristianpaulgot a nanonote? ;)11:56
GNUtooI just logged on my desktop11:57
GNUtoofor using pastebin11:57
GNUtooit's compiling11:57
GNUtooand failed11:57
GNUtooso to paste the pastebin I launched xchat11:57
GNUtoowhich connected to #qi-hardware11:57
GNUtoobasically we're bisecting for palm-pre which I don't have yet11:58
kristianpaulah ok12:01
kristianpaulnice to see you around here anyway :-)12:01
GNUtoonote that I'm arround in #jlime on my laptopp12:09
kristianpaulyeap  sure :-)12:11
wpwraktuxbrain: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/12:13
kristianpaulwhoa, tha 3 pin conectors is giant !12:18
kristianpaulwpwrak: nice pics !12:19
kristianpaulor i'm so exited to try to make mw own dual layer board plugable on the nanonote some day... :-)12:20
kristianpaulgreat work wpwrak !!12:21
kristianpauldoest it works? :-)12:22
wpwrak(connector) yeah, it's a bit of a monster. at least it makes sure i have plenty of space :)12:22
wpwrak(work) good question :) first, i have to write a programmer. or port an existing one.12:23
kristianpaulavrdude port?12:24
wpwraki need to see if the code is sufficiently reusable. would be nice if it is.12:25
wpwrakof course, i need about 1% of its functionality ...12:25
qi-bot[commit] kyak: backgammon: set 4x8 to avoid segfault http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/297565712:57
bartbeskyak: want me to edit the launcher in gmenu2x?13:09
kyakbartbes: would be great, if you have access13:10
bartbesI do13:10
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: Backgammon launcher now uses backgammon.sh http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/c61959413:11
bartbeskyak: there we go13:12
kyakbartbes: thanks!13:12
bartbesI saw your mail on the mailing list and remembered I still had commit access13:13
kyakhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Applications looks really cool13:13
kristianpaulsmoke tests are good too, thanks Yi !13:14
kyakall the screenshots and descriptions.. very attractive13:14
kristianpaula bookled based on that will be nice too13:18
kristianpaulso far ben manual is no too much informative about this kind of stuff, at least when i bought mine13:18
kristianpaulhe, the how to exit, or xx or xxx or xxx or take battery off (:p) is really fun :')13:21
zrafathat os off topic.. but the us justice is more off topic closing the original site, when they did not do anything :)13:22
kristianpaulp2p dns will be fun this year :-)13:25
tuxbrainwpwrak: avrdude work on devian, it was what I used to flash the arduino... so it's only mater to port it to openwrt and I can remove that from my todo list also :P (it was very very deep in the scale but removing an items is allways source of joy :)14:08
tuxbrainwpwrak: better this than ..+1 to avrdude :P14:08
tuxbrainwpwrak, by far the most elegant uart solution until now dude :)14:10
kristianpaultuxbrain: ergg,, but flash arduino wich already run a bootloader14:18
kristianpaulstill missing first boostrap14:18
kristianpaulsure avrdude can do that do.14:19
kristianpaulyou just need to choose the simpler and already supported avr programer and try make that work with the SDIO..14:19
wpwraktuxbrain: (+1) heh :) i'll leave packing for distros to others :) all i care about if cross-compilation and finding a way for adding my low-level interface15:06
GNUtoo|laptophi tuxbrain15:59
tuxbrainhi GNUtoo|laptop16:24
tuxbrainYou will come  to fosdem?16:24
GNUtoo|laptoptuxbrain, yes16:31
GNUtoo|laptopthat's the reason why I pinged you16:31
tuxbraingreat :)16:31
GNUtoo|laptopbtw do you have some sparse debug cable?16:31
GNUtoo|laptopfor the openmoko16:32
GNUtoo|laptopmine broke in the transport last summer16:32
tuxbrainnop sorry, I have resell all OM stuff to pulster16:32
GNUtoo|laptopah ok16:32
GNUtoo|laptopso you're focussing on nanonote now?16:32
tuxbrainin the free hardware part yes16:33
GNUtoo|laptopah? there are other parts?16:33
tuxbrainrugged PDAs and Point of sales terminals with linux16:33
GNUtoo|laptopand you still want SHR on it16:34
tuxbrainon one of the pdas yes16:34
GNUtoo|laptopbring one to the fosdem then16:34
GNUtoo|laptopI could take a look16:34
tuxbrainsure :)16:34
GNUtoo|laptopbasically I can evaluate it16:35
tuxbrainI will love to talk about it with you16:35
tuxbrainI think the main problem will be with the kernel16:35
GNUtoo|laptopevaluate means look at stuff and see the possible problems16:35
GNUtoo|laptopdo theses device have serial?16:35
tuxbrainthe american gues that has signed some ndas and are taking a look on what are under them and what not16:36
GNUtoo|laptopgues ???16:37
tuxbrainusb with u-boot for reflashing but I I don't see any serial conection right now but I can ask16:37
tuxbrainwhat they use for kernel debugin and so16:40
GNUtoo|laptopI guess no one will want to use printks for debugging16:40
GNUtoo|laptopI did it for the htc dream16:40
GNUtoo|laptopand alsa16:40
tuxbrainthey are very coalborative, and really wants to improve their opennes in the devices so that's why I finally decide to work with them16:40
GNUtoo|laptopand I don't want to do it again.....16:40
tuxbrainheheeheh I understand :)16:40
GNUtoo|laptopmaybe we'd better talking in #openmoko-cdevel than highjacking this channel16:40
tuxbrainI must leave right now, but I'm glad to hear from you16:40
tuxbrainsee you16:40
GNUtoo|laptopok then a last thing16:40
GNUtoo|laptopif uboot has usb support16:40
GNUtoo|laptopyou can have cdc_ethernet16:40
GNUtoo|laptopwhich is nice16:40
GNUtoo|laptopso you can md the dmesg buffer16:41
GNUtoo|laptopok see you16:41
wpwrakGNUtoo|laptop: printks are great for debugging !! :)16:42
GNUtoo|laptoptry debugging a badly written alsa driver with printk, without prior knowledge of alsa16:42
GNUtoo|laptopeven palm failed to fix the alsa driver I'm talking about16:43
GNUtoo|laptopthey worked arround instead16:43
wpwrakGNUtoo|laptop: bah, i've debugged ATM drivers with printk :)16:43
GNUtoo|laptopI've debugged a lot of stuff with printk16:44
GNUtoo|laptopsome stuff are ok16:44
GNUtoo|laptopbut having kgdb would be great16:44
wpwrakpure luxury :)16:45
GNUtoo|laptopif it can save you some time, why not using it?16:47
kristianpaulhmm printk16:47
GNUtoo|laptopbacktrace are usefull16:48
GNUtoo|laptopbut imagine the power of gdb16:48
wpwrakwell, sometimes saves a few compile/rerun cycles16:50
GNUtoo|laptopyes indeed16:51
GNUtoo|laptopaltough a few depends on the complexity of what you're debugging16:51
GNUtoo|laptopif it's something simple16:51
GNUtoo|laptopwith code you know16:51
GNUtoo|laptopyou don't need kgdb16:51
GNUtoo|laptopbut in the case of the alsa driver I debugged....16:51
GNUtoo|laptopit would have been nice to have it16:51
wpwrakwell, i've never wrestled with alsa. maybe it is uniquely difficult ...16:57
kristianpaulah, printk is a linux thing17:07
kristianpaulafaik is not in wikipedia and i have to use google :S17:07
kristianpaul   printk("*** I am a kernel hacker! ***\n");  hehe17:08
kristianpaulhmm dmesg plus that seems usefull17:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: uart/cam/: the usual CAM process for cutting the PCB http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/f67f7a919:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: uart/avrdude/: patch and build instructions for avrdude http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1826cc219:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: uart/fw/: dummy firmware with build and programming process http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/979be2920:48
wpwraknow i wonder if anyone has the balls to actually build this thingy ;-)20:49
zrafawpwrak: is it easier than ledtoy?20:52
zrafawpwrak: can I build it using the same tools as for ledtoy?20:52
zrafawpwrak: will I use it for something? (for example to sell tuxbrain it?)20:53
kristianpaulcan i build with out the cnc thing like in your place?20:53
wpwrakzrafa: a lot less components. but they're a bit smaller.20:53
kristianpauli can try source a motor tool20:53
kristianpauland i'm willing to do my first order in digikey :D20:53
wpwrakkristianpaul: Ornotermes has built his 8:10 card PCB without a CNC mill. so it seems to be possible :)20:53
zrafakristianpaul: great ;)20:53
kristianpaulwpwrak: ya, but you'rs is double layered right?20:54
kristianpaulhmm wait  amin20:54
zrafakristianpaul: you could write a little wiki page with complete instructions. Dont know anything about that.. Maybe others trying Diy would like to know20:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: yes, 2 layers. but the the mechanical part is the same20:54
kristianpaulfew holes, thats good..20:55
zrafakristianpaul: wiki page: (about digikey order)20:55
rjeffrieswpwrak which thingie20:56
kristianpaulrjeffries: are you reading qi-bot lines?20:56
rjeffriesI will go back sorry20:56
kristianpaulzrafa: there is boom, that helps, but yes i can document my process when i encorge my self to order20:57
kristianpaulwpwrak: there is  BOM isnt?20:57
rjeffrieswpwrak still unclear. I *think* it is the new uart 8:10 vard i sthat correct20:58
kristianpaulwpwrak: wow, you're relly good,  !!21:00
kristianpaulis it done? sofware part it seems..21:00
wpwrakrjeffries: the uart board21:00
wpwrakkristianpaul: (bom) ah, haven't fed boom yet21:00
kristianpauls/software/firmware/patches hello world !21:00
rjeffrieshave you made first one?21:00
rjeffriesor design is done21:00
kristianpaulrjeffries: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/uart/pix/21:01
rjeffriesthat was for wpwrak sorry21:01
wpwrakkristianpaul: the fw just blinks the led. but it shows that avrdude and the firmware build process work.21:01
kristianpaulthats for you  rjeffries  :-)21:01
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah i noticed the blink :-)21:02
kristianpaulis not that the idea of the project? :-)21:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: there could still be bugs in the SPI interface, the UART interface, or the clock handling. but for now, i'll assume perfection :)21:02
rjeffriesmaybe Ornotermes can build first one outside of wpwrak's flat21:02
rjeffriesOrnoterms are you listening? ;)21:03
wpwrakkristianpaul: i still need to check the clock. but yes, than i have all the answers i want for continuing with atusb. don't need the uart to actually work :)21:03
wpwraklemme do the bom ...21:03
rjeffriesoh shit dome of use want the uart to work There's theis guy some call tuxbrain or tuxbrain_away ;))21:04
wpwrakgrmbl. just clobbered my makefile. luckily it's a really simple one. the joy of missing a git add ...21:06
kristianpaulgit status?21:07
kristianpaulah clobbered.21:08
kristianpaulzrafa: are you going to build one?21:11
kristianpaulwho want Diy with sharism around ;-)21:11
kristianpaulwell, this is a small and tiny project21:11
kristianpaulfor potential users.. may be tuxbrain will wake up after read this ;-)21:12
kristianpaulgit reset HEAD -- Makefile !21:13
wpwrakyeah, doesn't get much smaller. it's a bit hairy to solder, but actually not as bad as i thought21:14
wpwrakkristianpaul: (makefile) naw, i had forgotten to commit it and then overwrote it by mistake. nothing git can solve.21:14
kristianpaulcp can do backups, just in case ;-)21:16
wpwraki already rewrote it21:17
qi-bot[commit] Joachim Steiger:  more exact button assembly instructions http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/caf327121:40
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: uart/Makefile: forgot to commit this one. oopsie. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/0ec7bb421:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: uart: added more values to schematics, added files for BOM processing http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/5d7c78e21:46
Action: rjeffries wonders how much it would cost him to do a run of qty 10 pcbs using one of the many low qty fast turnaround pcb shops21:47
wpwrakrjeffries: quite a few should have online quotes21:48
rjeffrieswpwrak I assume design is simple enough that you have high confidence PCB is sound and you have built a PROOF OF CONCEPT** first article21:49
rjeffrieswolfspraul ** saud in ALL CAPS just for you my friend21:49
rjeffrieswpwrak so the pcb thickness is what? and what are outside dimensions (you know off top of your head)21:50
wpwrakrjeffries: which project are you talking about ?21:50
wpwrak0.8 mm thickness21:51
rjeffriesuart for Ben21:51
rjeffrieswhat else is there> ;)))21:51
wpwrakoh. a lot :)21:51
wpwrakyes, i built a proof of concept :)21:51
rjeffriesI know that I am KIDDING21:51
rjeffriesyou will have to answer to wolfspraul for doing PROOF OF CONCEPT since that terms lack precision21:52
wpwrakoutside dimensions: 25.5 x 13.7 mm21:52
rjeffriesto get a quoute I guess I need to know number of vias and the (what is it called) line pitch? this is not a highly critical board I assume21:53
wpwrak0.45 mm for the finest-pitch component (a QFN). the small passives are 0402 or larger.21:54
wpwraktraces: see Design Rules in pcbnew.21:54
rjeffriesok on wiki or is that in git21:55
wpwrakvias: see File > Fabrication Outputs > Drill File21:55
rjeffrieswhere is my starting directory URL pls21:55
wpwrakyou need to check out the ben-blinkenlights project, cd uart, make brd21:55
rjeffriescheck out as in install git then check out files right21:56
wpwrakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/ is where it ALL starts :)21:56
wpwrakif you don't have git yet, yes :)21:56
rjeffriesok I am newbie. and a work in progress21:56
wpwrakand you need kicad, of course21:56
rjeffriesI met with a cool EE grad student today from a local university21:57
rjeffriesI guess I will document my steps as I start from scratch it may help someone in fure, or not21:57
wpwrakthat's always a good idea21:57
rjeffriesmost people probably syaty with more knowledge than me21:58
rjeffriesthe good news: I am not hoplessly stupid. and I am patient more or less21:58
rjeffriesI am now going to do a first pass look at what it would take to fab some pcbs21:59
rjeffriesactually first I have a small work project to finish. when I get that done I'll do that "for fun"22:00
--- Wed Feb 2 201100:00

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