#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-01-28

Action: rjeffries agrees with what <roh> said01:28
wolfsprauland wolfspraul agrees too01:32
wolfspraulroh - you are our savior!01:32
wolfspraulthat reminds me that roh also wrote some excellent posts on the list a while back in response to Carlos01:32
wolfspraulcopyleft hardware is difficult, everybody who is serious about it and wants it to succeed agrees01:33
wolfspraulthere is no point in redoing multi-billion USD investments that are able to make fantastic chips that make our lives so much better01:33
wolfsprauland it will never happen anyway01:33
wolfspraulbut there is a point somewhere, where remote-kill switches, drm, closed firmwares start and innovation and creativity suffers01:34
wolfspraulwe will find the sweet spot between those two, I'm sure :-)01:34
wpwrakthere are a lot of people out there who very much want you to believe you could never even begin to compete with them and their work ;-)01:36
wpwrakafter all, demoralizing your competitors before they even start is the most convenient way of beating them :)01:37
wolfspraulwpwrak: which products are you talking about?01:37
tuxbrain_awayindeed we can't, even worst we don't want to compete :), the  way we are walking is the good one and they are welcome to walk with us :)01:39
wpwrakoh, pretty much anything. patents are part of that game too, of course.01:40
wpwraktuxbrain_away: it's actually easy. you just have to ignore that what you're trying to do it impossible. once you got going, you'll eventually find some new direction.01:41
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: move all nanonote openwrt package file to this repo http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/fbcbd8702:32
kyakxiangfu: hi! have you had a chance to check if gottet is workign for you?02:32
xiangfukyak: have checked, still the same. :(02:33
kyakxiangfu: btw, i built it on buildhost, and it is working just fine (even without the latest "fix")02:33
kyakseems that you do have to build from scratch02:33
xiangfuseems there are some special configure in your nanonote, I also tried reflash my nanonote to 2010-12-14,02:40
xiangfukyak: and I have two nanonotes. both got the same result. 3/4 screen.02:40
xiangfukyak: I just tried install your buildhost gottex...ipk . same result in two nanonote. :(02:41
kyaktwo nanonotes, you are a rich man! :)02:41
kyakthe problem is not in the gottet ipk02:41
kyakit might be in one of the libs02:41
kyakqt4, maybe02:41
kyakso you would have to install "my" qt4, too02:42
kyaki wonder what could be so special about my nanonote..02:42
kyakit is flashed with the latest image build from git02:42
xiangfukyak: ok. I will test and report again. my build will finish in several hours. I will test your ubi file and mines02:47
xiangfukyak: oh.. no ubi file in your buildhost openwrt.02:48
kyakxiangfu: yeah.. it's not finished.. i gave up :)02:51
kyakIGNORE_ERRORS=y doesn't work02:52
kyakand there are "y" packages that fail to build02:52
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add some sections http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/1d8fe2c02:53
kyakxiangfu: you don't necessarily have to check my ubi.. yours should work the same, i just ask if you can build from scratch02:53
xiangfuyes. fetchmail and php5 will fail.02:53
kyakguile, too02:53
xiangfukyak: my build is still compiling02:54
xiangfuguile works fine in my home folder.02:54
kyakit's amazign how my can have different results on the same host :)02:57
xiangfukyak: maybe the package build order.02:58
xiangfukyak: I have enable all package. so guile maybe build later. I think that is the only different between yours and my .config file02:59
kyaki enabled all packages, too02:59
kyaki have: feeds.conf (qi-packages first, no @revision). then i git pull in openwrt-packages and git pull in openwrt-xburst. then i make clean; rm -rf build_dir staging_dir dl feeds tmp; make package/symlinks03:01
kyakthen i copy config from data/.. and yes | &03:01
kyakthen i make03:01
kyakthis is how i build from scratch, this way i make sure there is no leftover from previsou build03:02
xiangfuhmm.. with out .config you can not 'make package/symlinks' it's will show 'menuconfig'03:02
kyakxiangfu: there is some .config at this point03:02
kyakthen i overwrite it with config from data, if necessary03:03
kyakmenuconfig shows up if there is no .config only because it wants to know about toolchain options03:04
kyaki.e. gcc and uclibc version03:04
xiangfuI have:  1. make distclean, 2. cp data...config | yes... 2. make package/symlinks 3. cp data...config | yes.. again 4 make03:04
kyakxiangfu: i think your way is even better.03:05
kyaki don't like distclean because it rm's dl dir - i don't always want it..03:05
xiangfukyak: it's a symbolic here. :)03:06
xiangfusymbolic links.03:07
kyaksmart :)03:07
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x move all file to it's repo, keep here as small as possible http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/fcb547603:20
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed Made on Earth http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/0d44fa903:45
rohhm. too bad. i liked that03:51
wolfspraulroh: yes!03:51
wolfspraulthank you03:51
wolfspraulme too :-)03:51
wolfspraulbut we were outnumbered by people who think it's better to not upset customs03:51
rohwell.. i liked the idea to point out its a multinational effort03:52
wolfspraulmaybe we have another text that is less confrontational?03:52
roh'made' is so unspecific. which part? code? materials? pcb? assembled where? in what parts?03:53
Action: tuxbrain_away are part of that crowd03:53
wolfspraulsure, I agree.03:53
rohand i liked it being so unspecific.03:53
wolfsprauland I don't even think this matters at all in customs, it's more an issue for some people/users who turn to the back of the device because they like to know who made this thing etc.03:53
tuxbrain_awayyou an set that in whatever place in the box as marketing message, but not in the product definition label03:53
wolfspraulMade in Many Countries?03:54
rohi think if we would try to list only 30% of the hw and sw compoents and their origin on the back the sticker would cover the whole box below03:54
wolfspraulI like that too :-)03:54
rohmade in too many countries to list.03:54
tuxbrain_awaymade in qi-hardware :P03:56
roh'proud work of the revoutionary forces working towards open devices on planet earth'03:57
wolfspraulworks for me04:00
wolfsprauljust a bit long, small font?04:00
rohwrite it around the sticker. in small bold font04:00
rohinstead of a limiting thick line04:00
rohkind as a 'goof' for people watching closely04:01
wolfspraulhow about 'collaborative work of many people'04:10
wolfspraulbassel: good morning, where are you now?04:45
wolfspraulI'm reading about egyptian internet shut-down, interesting stuff.04:47
basselhey wolfspraul, morning05:05
basselat Syria now05:05
rohwolfspraul: could be a good idea to get a backup satlink into the shack.. for darker times05:05
basselwolfspraul even in Syria they blocked wifi in public places05:05
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: did you get that WEEE registration pulster is talking about? should we add the WEEE logo on m1?05:10
wolfspraulbassel: wow. if egypt goes down then I would think they may totally lock you down as well.05:11
wolfspraulI mean if the protests continue and the govt and secret service collapse.05:11
wolfspraulthen we won't see good old bassel for a while, in that case: hang in there!05:11
basselwolfspraul totally, weird shit happening here05:11
basselI'm going back to Singapore soon05:12
basseljust got back here to see it's fucked up05:12
basselinternet and mobile shut down05:15
basselthat's weird05:15
basselthe totally turned off the internet in egypt05:15
wolfspraulyes it seems they disconnected all bgp routes05:16
wolfspraulor nearly all, some small isp providing connectivity for the stock exchange and some others seems to be exempt05:16
wolfspraulchina has been doing similar things when they crack down and kill people in tibet or xinjiang, only that it's too remote for any voices to come out from the siege05:17
wolfspraulbut egype is more westernize, and surrounded by watchful people, so the whole way they try to lock it down will be much better understood and observed05:18
wolfspraulso: let's see how it continues :-) always some good ideas from this how to make routing and network protocols stronger, no? :-)05:18
wolfspraulI would think this will drive a lot more people to the streets now, if it really continues. not sure how deeply the internet is already connected into many small or large businesses.05:19
wolfspraulroh: the raumfahrtagentur blog is the only one I couldn't get into the qi planet because it seems to be https only and for some reason the old planetplanet I'm using didn't pick it up05:22
wolfspraulbut - I need to go back at this and get https to work... I found some newer planet versions recently, need to upgrade then see if it works.05:23
Action: Jay7 is looking on cases by Jane05:23
basselwolfspraul I don't believe that the internet has main role in the current middle east protest05:24
basselit might have some part05:24
rohwolfspraul: planetplanet uses some weird python lib which is weird with ssl05:24
basselbut people are putting there lifes for this05:24
basselit's more than the internet05:24
basselblocking the internet will just fuel the fire more05:25
rohif it finds that lib it goes bonkers. remove it and it uses the python fallback which works properly05:26
wolfspraulbassel: oh sure the internet is just a small tool.05:26
wolfspraulbut for a government that has a lot to hide it's still a big problem, even if people just chat about which music they like.05:27
basselyeah the governments now are scared to shit05:27
basselI had to suspend all hackerspace activities05:28
wolfspraulsure, take good care, it's better to be around for the long run.05:28
wolfspraulone of my ex-neighbors had his second court date today, let me check whether there's a result finally... (he's already in jail for 7 months now)05:29
wolfspraulbah still no sentencing http://www.facebook.com/note.php?created&note_id=193916787286346&id=12836628720833005:31
wolfspraulhe will get 1-3 years05:31
wolfspraulit would be better if he could continue outside :-)05:31
wolfspraulroh: how do I remove that library that causes the problem?05:32
rohhm.. dunno anymore.. searched the .so and removed it i guess05:32
basselthey just shut down the Casino in Syria, it was just opened one month ago05:33
basselthey blocked gambling again05:33
basselafter one month of allowing it05:33
basselthey trying to make good relation with Muslims05:33
rohwolfspraul: check if there is a /usr/share/python-support/planet/planet/_timeoutsocket.py05:37
rohi just removed it05:37
wolfspraulyou mean on the qi server?05:37
rohon the machine the planet is installed05:38
wolfspraulyour machine?05:38
rohi just deleted it. just remember to delete it again after an upgrade05:38
wolfspraulanyway, I still see it on the qi server05:38
wolfspraulmaybe I rename it to timeoutstocket.py.disabled ?05:38
rohi removed it on mine to get ssl working05:38
rohi just deleted it. dunno if rename works.. should i guess05:39
wolfspraulsure that's great I will try05:39
wolfspraulquick fix, can upgrade to a newer planet sw later05:39
lekernelwolfspraul: ianal but I think the "made in" should identify the country where the last major manufacturing step took place - in this case Taiwan05:49
wolfspraullekernel: I'm not aware of any regulations that actually mandate that, so out with it05:51
wolfspraulit's confusing and contradicts our copyleft goals05:51
wolfspraulwe rather really document where stuff was made, sourcemap.org etc.05:52
lekernelI've seen label that read "Designed in California by xxx, Made in China"05:52
lekernelwe could use a similar phrasing05:52
lekernellet's not try to attract customs problems :)05:52
wolfspraulMade in: See sourcemap.org05:52
wolfspraulI have by far the most customs experience of anyone in this channel.05:53
wolfspraullet me just be arrogant a little :-)05:53
lekernelso why is every product using a proper "made in <country>" label?05:54
wolfsprauldon't know05:54
lekerneldon't you think they might have a good reason for that?05:54
wolfspraul'proper' because everybody does it?05:54
lekernel"The requirements for Country of Origin markings are complex and depend both domestic rules permitting the designation 'Made in X', 'Product of X' etc; and the import country requirements for disclosure."05:56
wolfspraulwhat does that tell you?05:56
lekerneldo you really want to play with that, or just do as everyone does?05:56
lekernellaw and regulations are boring, and in this case I'm not sure it's worth messing with them for what it brings...05:57
wolfspraulno messing05:57
wolfspraulin fact I actually take those regulations serious and do a ton of paperwork all the time05:58
wolfspraulMade in: See sourcemap.org05:58
wolfspraullekernel: you are not telling me that we should improperly mark the product as 'made in taiwan', when in fact a weapons-grade dual-use fpga is 'made in usa' and affected by us export control laws.06:01
wolfspraulor are you?06:01
lekernelfrom my understanding of the regulation, the label should say where the last major production step of the product occured06:02
wolfspraulthere are far less regulations about 'labels' than many people here think06:03
wolfspraulthe regulations are about declarations, and sometimes about protected names, like the whole famous 'champagne' case06:03
wolfspraulif I make a cheese in china, but I say "cheese from switzerland"06:03
wolfspraulthat's not going to go down very well06:03
wolfspraulfirst rule of business - stick with the truth06:03
wolfspraulI am not trying to hide where things are done, quite to the contrary.06:04
wolfsprauland we will properly declare everything as required by customs.06:04
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: yes I have all WEEE things in order here so yes put that logo also .06:22
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: how difficult was it to get the WEEE stuff. do you have some unique number now?06:40
tuxbrain_awaywell is a little messy but sumarizing you have to pay :P,06:41
tuxbrain_awayyou have to be afiliated to one of the local WEEE associations and pay an anual fee + a small amount for each device imported each 3 months, you have to deliver a documentation each tree montsh and they invoice you06:42
wpwraktuxbrain_away: i still think you're confusing "wipe" and "whip" :)06:43
wolfspraulthat's supposed to be environmentally friendly?06:43
tuxbrain_awayyes I have a number Nº de Productor REI-RAEE 00329806:44
wolfspraulare you doing anything with actual devices? or just paying people and producing admin overhead?06:44
tuxbrain_awayNº REI-RPA 667  RD.106/200806:44
tuxbrain_awayhaahahah yes06:44
wolfsprauldoes this mean that a customer anywhere in the EU can return the device to a WEEE collection point?06:45
tuxbrain_awayin theory that money is used to cover the cost of recicling the electronic waste you are introducing in the sistem06:45
wolfspraulmost likely I think way too practical :-)06:45
wolfspraulyes but what does it mean for an actual customer of our devices?06:45
wolfspraulwhere can he go to return the device?06:45
wolfspraulroh: socket thing didn't work, still got 'internal server error'06:45
tuxbrain_awaybeing practical is not my problem :P , but in theory costumer must go to the local waste station (don't know its name in english) or at least here in my town there is a free pick up service you you have to call and put the waste near the paper/plastic/whatever container on the street06:48
wolfspraulis that connected to WEEE ?06:51
wolfspraulin other words - do they only pickup stuff that has a WEEE label?06:51
tuxbrain_awayno, they pick up all waste,  but if goverment catch a company introducing electronic waste on the system (aka importing or producing) without pay that fee.... tachan!!!! the fee becomes a prette sue and a lot of money to pay06:54
tuxbrain_awayso if your question is if there is a clear relation on WEEE and ecology answer is no, weee is just another tax with green flavour but a tax06:55
wolfspraulI see.06:56
wolfspraulwell then, let's add the logo for now, later hopefully we can participate in more meaningful programs as well.06:56
wolfspraulthe main thing is the longevity of devices, imho06:56
tuxbrain_awayI agree06:56
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (wipe/whip) especially when used in connection with someone's behind :)06:58
wpwrakregarding "made in", there's also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_origin06:58
tuxbrain_awayhahaha wipe ->clean. dry dish hahahaahah07:01
tuxbrain_awayok ok I will stop wipe your back man,07:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: and here's something that's even better than my "u5D": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_mark#China_export07:03
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: yes, that is all fine (wikipedia article). And that is exactly why the label will not have a reference to a country, so we can correctly declare it depending on the circumstances.07:10
tuxbrain_awayok is an option :)07:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: seems that some places require a declaration on the label, too. well, i guess you'll find out ...07:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: could also be that lack of such indications simply means "worst case" treatment and fees. not sure how different "taiwan" is from "worst case"07:13
wolfsprauland the rules for determination of country of origin may differ depending on country of destination. what now?07:13
wolfspraulMade in: See sourcemap.org07:13
wolfspraulyou seem to think that every rule is designed to be your enemy :-)07:14
wolfspraulmake them your friend, Werner07:14
wolfspraulthe rules are there to help you!07:14
wolfsprauljust use them!07:14
wpwrak(sourcemap) ah, but that's not the legal country of origin :)07:14
wolfspraulbut it adds some facts into the machine07:16
wpwrak(rules) well, for me the question is "how do i avoid undue attention by those who try to enforce those rules". it's like airport security - the real enemy are nowadays the screeners. the average passenger probably spends a lot more time worrying about how to get past them unmolested than about any hypothetical blowing up the plane.07:16
wpwrakhypothetical terrorist07:17
wpwrakdon't see the fnords ;-)07:17
zrafawpwrak: wolfspraul : I have an idea for some test for werner future customs ezeiza airport travels. Werner, what about if when you need to get something you try to get it via another guy with a name more spanish? better, some very common name here. "Juan Perez" for example (we do not have any friend with that name, but someone with a similar name). I guess that some of the troubles you had on the past is because customs in airport read "ahhh.. Werner Alme07:27
wpwrak(tunesia, egypt, etc.) i wonder if we may be seeing the kyklos in action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyklos07:28
wolfspraulzrafa: so far all Werner said about Argentina sounded very reasonable.07:30
wolfspraulthere are clear and solid declaration levels for normal couriers, 1000 usd for fedex, 3000 usd for ems.07:30
wolfspraulwerner seemed to have serious problems only in connection with the power adapter without 'A' symbol07:31
wolfspraulbut other than that it seems stuff just passes without further ado, no?07:31
wpwrakzrafa: (funny name) naw, i don't think so. argentina has traditionally been a melting pot, and all sorts of germanic names exist here. i might well be the grandson of some (")political refugee(") from the 1940es :)07:31
wolfspraulthe reason the couriers have those limits is also just because of their business model07:32
wolfspraulmaybe things above those levels tend to generate too much bureaucratic overhead, so they cannot handle it at their price range and margin expectations07:32
wpwrakzrafa: things may get more intersting with obviously asian names. these would almost all be recent immigrants07:32
wolfspraulI'm not at all worried about Argentine customs right now, had a number of shipments and they all just passed.07:33
zrafawolfspraul: I have read some post (a long time ago) about guys going to ezeiza airport because customs stop the package, and customs people doing them pay customs dreamed previous night before giving you the package07:33
wolfspraulsure, but I think that was because of the power adapters without 'A' symbol07:33
wolfspraulok, we learnt that now. done.07:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: (power) without (S)07:33
wolfspraul'S' ok. that's what I meant.07:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: two of the (S) problems were connected with the goods also exceeding the USD 1000 barrier on couriers. they didn't dwell on that point, though.07:34
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. from the 1940es there are many germanic names07:34
wolfspraulcompare that to a 75 USD limit into China now07:35
wolfspraulI think Argentine is just fine, really.07:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: what happens at that USD 75 limit ?07:35
wolfspraulfedex won't take it07:35
wpwrakwow :)07:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: moving back to taiwan soon ? :)07:36
kristianpaulroh: i agree, i just pointed that because, well i know abot our all work done here about copyleft hardware, i understand always there are cheap alternatinves as our 3 usd~ ingenic chip, but now we can look further and do some sacrifies buying a expensive (yeah but is reconfigurable) fpga, in wich i canput a free CPU, even tought ! there is a side project (llhdl) for other _hole_ misssing in free sofware for hardware, but is a human d07:51
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yeah, redoing is not good, inovating it is, thats what you can do with mm i think07:59
kristianpaulnice http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File%3AExternal-speaker-ben.JPG08:01
lekernelI don't think it's a good idea to use a FPGA for just a CPU. MM can live with that because the FPGA also brings technical advantages and absorbs some of the chips (and cost) that would normally be needed in such a system08:04
lekernelotherwise fpga's are expensive and slow, and cheapness and functionality beat freedom08:04
kristianpaulno no, s/CPU/SoC :-)08:04
lekernelyeah well08:06
kristianpauland custom cores..08:06
lekernelsmall soc's with just a lcd driver, memory controller, keyboard and memory card are more or less the same08:06
lekernelwhat custom cores do you need for a nanonote?08:06
kristianpauli dint said nanonote :-), but may be ogg/ogv aceleration08:07
kristianpaulsomething for games perhaps... is just matter of see what people can do with08:09
kristianpaulremenber the guy on m1 list that said he was using lm32 for L108:09
wpwraklekernel: more mmc engines, gps data conversion, maybe correlation, any interface some diy circuit may require, ...08:09
lekernelwhat's l1?08:09
lekerneldiy? diy != FPGA08:10
lekerneldiy = led blinkers08:10
kristianpaulL1 signal processing, i dont remenber the appp now08:11
wpwraklekernel: the thing the arduinauts will do once they've grown up ;-)08:11
kristianpaulMobile telephony layer 1 processing mostly.08:12
wpwraklekernel: also, application-specific acceleration engines, even small ones. see also the MS eMIPS port for BSD. (alas, i only have an article in german about this)08:12
kristianpaulis this diy^ ?08:12
lekernel3 years and a half of milkymist, and: I only got minor FPGA contribs, and lost a lots of delusions about opencores and the like, while every nerd complains about the lack of a MMU but no one would implement it08:12
lekernelso sorry but I have somehow lost faith in the capability of DIY people to do interesting things with FPGAs08:13
lekernelthere are some exceptions, but it's a very niche market08:13
wpwraklekernel: give us the fpga, the Free synthesis tools, and a few months to tinker, and i'm sure there will be unique and meaningful uses ;-)08:13
wpwraklekernel: you're still at the very very beginning. you're like columbus writing the final report of his voyage minutes after leaving the harbor :)08:15
kristianpaulalso now there is Sharism wich produce the HW, distributors, etc..08:15
lekernelyeah, maybe this will improve. but I wouldn't bet on it, though08:16
wolfspraullekernel: they ask about mmu because that's the first thing they find that they both know and understand is missing. I wouldn't read too much into it, it's a process. I'm on that path too.08:16
wolfspraulyou need to give others some time to catch up08:16
wolfspraulI learnt from lars that 'lots of programs want it'. ok. next step: which ones. then 'why do they want it'. then 'what if they don't get it'. 'what can i do without it'. etc.08:17
lekernelyeah, it's true, many traditional programs want it08:17
kristianpaullekernel: diy != fpga, just wait they got cheaper :-)08:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: a mmap is just part of the basic infrastructure today. it's almost like asking "what if we didn't have multiplication" ? sure, you can work around it, but ...08:23
lekernelwpwrak: not everyone's running GNU/Linux or even Unix08:24
Action: lekernel is a bit fed up of Ulrich Drepper style arguments "use GNU/Linux or die"...08:25
wpwraklekernel: i'm sure that, unless MM1 is a spectacular failure, which is very much hope it won't be, i'll be a fine linux platform before too long. and you'll probably come to like it too :)08:29
urandom__nah i gues there is more interesting stuff i would try instead of using it as a linux platform08:32
wpwrakurandom__: linux is just your baseline. doesn't have to be the focus of your activity.08:35
kristianpaullekernel: ok, lets forgot diy for a majority of this, what do you think about amateur?08:35
kristianpaulthats one, but there are others i bet :-)08:37
wpwrakatmel surely know how to design their chips such that they maximize routing complexity :-( the atmega8u2 is quite impressive in that regard. usb and power all bunched together, with three times vdd, but always other things in the way.08:59
bartbesoh wow09:02
bartbesso I read that pdf david mailed09:02
bartbesand I don't know who writes it, but he sure invested a lot of time in it09:02
bartbeshe wrote assembly to call c functions09:02
bartbesthen used that to create bindings to the framebuffer09:03
bartbesand then drew a mandelbrot09:03
wpwrakbartbes: looks as if it was david himself who did this, no ?09:15
LunaVoraxHello everyone !14:14
LunaVoraxI have a precise question about the USB of the Ben Nanonote14:15
LunaVoraxIf I'm connecting two Ben Nanonote with a USB Mini B Male to Mini B Male. Will they be able to communicate wih each other ?14:16
kristianpaulno no !14:24
kristianpaulDONT do that14:24
kristianpaulLunaVorax: nanonote is NOT usb on-the-go14:25
kristianpauljust usb sclient14:25
kristianpaulif you want to nanonote to talk each other, try usign your PC as Hub and then asign IP in the same range to both nanonotes14:26
LunaVoraxkristianpaul, it would have been hard to implement such a feature ?14:52
LunaVoraxNanonotes linked to each other only with usb cable ?14:52
kristianpaulmust be usb?14:53
kristianpaulyou can use serial port..14:53
kristianpaulSDIO perhaps but i'm not aware of wich protocols support it por p2p links.14:54
LunaVoraxI don't know I was thinking about a small port14:54
kristianpaulLunaVorax: yes it will14:54
LunaVoraxComplex you mean ?14:54
kristianpaulit seems or that what i get from other people told14:55
wpwrakserial would work. you could use ppp ;-)15:55
LunaVoraxppp ?16:00
LunaVoraxPoint to Point Protocol ?16:01
LunaVoraxwpwrak ?16:17
wpwrakyes. that was used for internet connectivity over telephone modems16:25
kristianpaulhe that remenber me that i have a gsm modem somwhere..16:46
kristianpaulah, i found cncmap17:20
kristianpaulnow i see what i should buy in the future a MDX-15/20 if i want get in touch with cnc :-)17:20
kristianpaulfuture as is out of my budget now :-)17:20
kristianpaulor who know, inject technology is getting cheaper too17:22
wpwrakthere are some DIY-ish variants that are a bit cheaper. you may want to look around the local market. maybe someone if making some.17:39
kristianpauli want scan too ;-)17:45
kristianpaulmay be laser and powder... there are so many choices, i'm not i a hurry so time will tell17:47
qwebirc83362hey guys i need a little bit of advice19:03
coopmeister123i have a tablet with a jz4760, any suggestions on where to get the windows driver?19:05
rjeffriesreading #qi-hardware irc logs is fascinating! who wrote the prgarm that formats the logs? Nice looking, easy to scan.20:51
rjeffrieswolf I have contacted a friend who can provide authoritative info regarding labels. His full time job is compliance21:46
wolfspraulrjeffries: very appreciated!21:51
wolfspraulbut... :-) you probably already know, sometimes I see rules as worthy following, and sometimes I see them as worthy changing21:52
wolfsprauldoing that with truly experienced people on your side is so much more fun, of course21:52
wolfspraulthe reason I spend quite a bit of time on those small bureaucratic details is because I think they will stay with us in the future, in fact they will become even more important21:53
wolfspraulI will finally try out sourcemap.org a bit now, always wanted to but now is a good opportunity.21:54
wolfspraulafter milkymist one is done, the next interesting thing will be ben-wpan as an 'intentional radiator', some more fcc reading on the todo list...21:55
rjeffriesagree with you pursuit of freedom, but not following the rules may cause real issues for your distributor. I do not understand the regualtion, so am gettingadvice. Trying to get it from two independent source. we shall see21:57
wolfspraulthe actual regulations are far far more flexible than some people here think21:58
wolfspraulwhich is only natural since they need to survive in the real world, not in some engineer's dream of how the world is programmed...21:59
wolfspraulthe reason I wanted to do CE and FCC compliance for m1 was because I like to know how well the product holds up as an actual quality product21:59
wolfspraulit's not just the label21:59
wolfspraulthe label is nothing actually, it's about what it means21:59
wolfsprauland those standards are big, with questions like "is your product primarily used at home, or also professionally?"22:00
wolfspraulyou tend to answer "PROFESSIONALLY!"22:00
wolfspraulthen the next question "also in public places like theaters?"22:00
wolfspraulthen you go "ooops"22:00
wolfspraulbecause you already know it will be about fire safety etc.22:00
wolfspraul"ahhh. maybe not.... :-)"22:01
wolfspraulnow look at the fine print of any digital camera you buy, somewhere it will say "not for professional use"22:01
wolfspraulbut why?22:01
wolfspraulsome conspiracy theorists think it's because of some nasty mpeg licensing22:01
wolfspraulmaybe it is, maybe not22:01
wolfspraulmaybe it's just because when they went through the ce testing, they said "not in theaters"22:02
wolfspraulsebastien asked adafruit about fcc, the answer was "we don't care about fcc"22:03
wolfspraulwelcome to the real world22:03
wolfspraulmaybe they are successful because they focus on the right things22:04
wolfspraulfor me it's about meaning, not forms. get me into a lab, and I can be concentrated 14h / day. put a stack of forms in front of me, and on page 2 I will get really giggly and just fill out so that it passes.22:05
rjeffriesAdafriot can say we don't care about the FCC but that does not remove their legal liability. If they ship a device that produces interference with other devices they can face substanntial fines22:08
rjeffriesas a product manager, ne I alwasy focus on is saftey. that is the largest potential liability, and easy too avoid.22:08
rjeffriesI once joined a company and took over a product where the team had neglected saftey.22:09
rjeffriesin that product there were high currents, and someone culd reach inside and if male was wearing a wedding ring and his finger was even slightly damp from sweat would get a nasty potentially fatal jolt22:11
rjeffriesso it was hard to fix but we did.22:11
rjeffriessemi unrealted I AGREE with you that next revision of MM should include protection against reverse polarity.22:12
rjeffriesI was in support department and the cmpany got careless abd shipped a product that did not have protection against reversal22:12
rjeffriesI can't begin to explain the damage to custmer satisfaction and the cost in USD22:13
wolfspraulwe are on the same page22:14
wolfspraulI said I am excited and concentrated in the lab.22:14
wolfspraulwith the hard data I learn there I am well prepared to fill out the forms.22:14
wolfsprauldiscussions about forms without such hard data is a waste of time22:14
wolfspraulat least I'm not interested as you can tell :-)22:14
wolfspraulof course the power supply circuit on m1 needs to get stronger, but not necessarily for our next run of 80-90 units.22:15
wolfspraulm1 performed very well in the tests we did, sebastien made some wise design decisions22:16
wolfspraulfor 'legal liability' - it's everywhere. lawyers advise on risks, business people decide which risks are worth taking. it's a natural give and take.22:17
wolfspraulsuccessful businesses find the right balance22:17
Action: rjeffries nods22:33
rjeffriesHow did MM do on ESD testing?22:34
rjeffriesfrom context I assume EMI results wer OK and provide some margin22:35
rjeffriestesting emi on a procuct that ships as a board seems like it would be a challenge22:36
rjeffriesnothing to attenuate the rf that sprays out. ;)22:37
kristianpaulwolfspraul: So roh will produce 80-90 cases too ? or planning scale using china manufacturing rules..22:42
wolfspraulwe are not shipping as a board22:57
wolfspraulI don't think you can do reasonable ce or fcc tests with a bare board22:57
wolfspraulI think the meaning of those tests is still misunderstood. mostly it's about consumer protection, or professional standards.22:58
wolfspraulwe did a round of tests including the case, and including power adapter.22:58
wolfspraulwhat's being tested is the whole 'product'22:58
kristianpaulrjeffries: ^23:01
rjeffriesI understand now. your approach is what one would expect.23:16
--- Sat Jan 29 201100:00

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