#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-01-24

wpwrakroh: (6LoWPAN) i've only skimmed the RFC so far, but it doesn't look very complex.02:02
wpwrakroh: (video) ah, interesting. downloading ...02:03
wpwrakkristianpaul: (kernel driver) in the end, there will be an AT86RF231 kernel driver, probably with an internal high/low level division, the high level implementing device operations and the low level talking to the interface. e.g. one to SDIO, the other to USB.02:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: linux-zigbee already has a kernel driver for AT86RF230. it's very simple, though, leaving a lot to software to implement (which per se isn't wrong, but ...). including timing-critical functions (which may be a problem)02:08
rohwpwrak: less stuff than zigbee, still quite some stack foobar02:52
wpwrakroh: it seems that people are using much of the stack from contiki. but i haven't investigated how exactly things are done.03:00
rohhavent looked at any code (yet)03:01
rohbut it seems that there are not several modules and usb based modules avail03:02
rohe.g. from http://www.dresden-elektronik.de/shop/cat4_33.html03:02
rohor http://www.dresden-elektronik.de/shop/cat4_32.html03:03
wpwrakyes, there's a bunch of hardware out there. of course, nothing tailored for the ben :)03:05
rohtrue. but maybe for the other end03:10
wpwraksure. an alternative for atusb, for example03:15
rohand it got an arm7 which should be strong enough to be able to run the stack and expose something like cdc-eth03:18
wpwraki suppose an AVR would be cpable enough already. but sure, the more power you have, the better :)03:20
rohdunno. question of optimized code/ram i guess03:20
wpwrakmy approach for atusb is simpler, though. just reuse as much of the driver as possible, don't write some complex standalone firmware03:21
rohseems like we need to reassemble packets with serious mtu (>1200 <1500byte)03:21
rohsure. but it also needs a linux pc on the other end then. or something like openwrt.03:21
wpwrakwho cares about non-linux ? ;-))03:21
rohatleast i know nobody writing osx and win32 drivers;)03:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: move project name to central NAME variable http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/50bd38c03:38
wolfspraulxiangfu: how do I format and mount the data partition on my nano?05:56
xiangfuwolfspraul: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Format_Data_Partition05:57
xiangfuwolfspraul: the fidelio.qi-hardware.com server become very slow recently.06:01
xiangfuwolfspraul: check this build: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/openwrt-xburst.all_packages-01212011-2200/06:02
xiangfuit's start at "21-Jan", until today, it still build, never happen before.06:02
wolfspraulok, the wiki page works like a charm06:02
wolfspraulslowness on build host, hmm...06:02
wolfspraulin 'top' I see a process that looks stuck06:03
wolfspraul3440 minutes running06:04
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes. something wrong, it start at Jan18.06:05
xiangfuwolfspraul: let me kill that.06:05
wolfspraulwhy don't you kill it?06:05
xiangfuwolfspraul: don't notice it start at Jan18 until you mention it.06:06
wolfspraulxiangfu: do you have a command line music player you recommend on the nanonote?06:08
wolfspraulsomething like "play_this *.ogg"06:08
xiangfuwolfspraul: no.06:12
wolfspraulok :-)06:13
wolfspraulthen I use gmu06:13
kyakwolfspraul: mplayer *.ogg :)06:14
Jay7or mpg123/mpg321 :)06:17
Jay7may be with *curses frontend06:18
rohwolfspraul: i got bad news (for now)07:22
rohi didnt get my delivery of acryllic yet. gls fucked up big time07:23
rohit went underway on the 19th and got delivered somewhere on the 20th and i didnt get any notification from them.07:23
wolfspraulroh: no problem, relax.07:25
wolfspraulso first you need to find where it is now :-)07:25
rohdoing that for 2 hours straight now07:25
roheven started calling people in oldenburg since there is a street with the same name and the surname they supposedly delivered it to07:26
rohproblem just is: nobody with that name lives in this house07:26
zrafawolfspraul: IIRC kyak did a mplayer version (in qi-openwrt) using a PATENTED stuff flag so it is useful for us. Maybe you could use it for mplayer *.ogg :)07:30
zrafaah.. he already said that :P07:30
wpwrakhmm, fedex are also a bit slow this time. the bad weather kicked back my parcel from digi-key by one day. should reach BUE tonight, then one day customs, delivery wednesday. that much about cleverly using the weekend. well, nothing too urgent in there..08:04
kristianpaulWhat's the right temperature to remove a NAND chip from a.. let said nanonote board :-)10:16
Action: kristianpaul planning to get a solder station for iron and air10:16
wpwrakmore heat = better :-)10:18
wpwrakthe problem is not the temperature per se but to maintain a high enough temperature uniformly in the area of interest10:19
wpwrakfactors that enter then are heat capacity of the elements you're heating, thermal transfer away from the area (e.g., ground planes), and of course also how continuous you can keep on heating10:20
kristianpaulyeah, i was told about when using hot air iron, to "fly" around the interested area in circles10:20
wpwraki've never lifted something as big as a nand with hot air. but maybe that's just my station that's not good enough.10:21
wpwraki use hot air for smaller areas, though. e.g., to solder the crystal10:22
kristianpaulhow do you usually remove a nand chip then?10:22
kristianpaulcon la plancha? :-)10:23
kristianpaulGot my answer http://vimeo.com/1169957610:28
kristianpaulhmm may be not the same method because ben board size.. but10:30
wpwrak(how do i remove) well, so far, i haven't ;-)10:30
kristianpaulwell, for the 16GB nand upgrade ;-)10:31
wpwrakif i did try, they i would probably use the iron and if that didn't work, the chipquick thing. the latter it very dirty, but works well.10:31
wpwrakit uses a special type of solder that has a very high thermal capacity and stays molten for several seconds. so you spread it around all the contacts, melt it, and then you can lift off the component. then clean the mess off the board ...10:32
kristianpaulhow you call solderwick in spanish there in argentina?10:34
wpwrakcinta para desoldar, malla desoldante10:39
wpwrakin english, desoldering braid / wick10:40
kristianpauli'll source, i had problem to ge tunderstood last time i asked10:40
wpwraksoon, i'll try 473-1060-ND and 473-1061-ND from digi-key10:41
wpwrakthey're very narrow, narrower than the braid i can easily find there10:41
kristianpaulwow is cheap10:42
wpwrakwith small component a regular-size braid (2 mm) is inconvenient, because it sticks to areas you're not working on. so you have to heat up a lot of things just to get the braid unstuck.10:42
kristianpaulah, is called mecha17:04
mtha 10 meters high humanoid robot?17:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: i have one that simply says "Solder-Wick" and "INDUSTRIA ARGENTINA" ;-)17:20
wpwrakkristianpaul: (that one is medium quality. the best i have so far is imported from japan, "goot" brand. i'm vary curious about the quality of the ones from digi-key)17:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: tiny ones are important, i think i'll assist some people on hard disk repair, i need learn how all this stuff work togethe17:24
kristianpaultiny <- solder-wick17:24
wpwrakhard disks should be fun :)17:25
wpwrakkristianpaul: i looked at the desoldering video. oh dear. that's quite brutish. the approach isn't too bad - the chipquick approach is the same. but the amount of time he's spending with the soldering iron is just scary.18:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: possible reasons: 1) he's not adding flux. there's some in the solder, but with smt, you're in a world of pain without extra flux. 2) the iron is probably too cold. better to do things hot and quick than cool but spending minutes fighting - you're likely to do more damage in the 2nd case.18:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: with the chipquick solder, you'd also have less trouble heating the entire row. i wouldn't make a habit of using it, but it can be helpful from time to time.18:21
wpwrakzrafa: i found the paper you recommended. the print looks promising. there are a few small flaws, but i'm not sure if they're the paper's fault. let's see how the transfer goes. (need to fix my machine first. the relay is finally dying.)18:27
zrafawpwrak: ha , great :).. We used the iron for the toner transfer using the amount of minutes suggested for the ledtoy18:52
steve|mseems like you get everything on ebay these days19:14
wpwraksteve|m: nice :) that should be fun to have for examining pcbs19:17
wpwrakzrafa: the one with tha lternative paper is now cooling. the one with hp paper is running though the machine. soon i'll have pictures.19:18
steve|mwpwrak: (examining pcbs) yes, that's what I was thinking too :)19:18
wpwraksteve|m: needs a digital sensor, though.19:23
wpwrakfilm is just boring. (although admittely wonderfully precise)19:23
steve|mhmm.. a Kodak-RVG 6000 seems to start at 600$19:27
wpwrakhere we go, xray for about USD 1100. not too bad for argentina. http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-105003528-rx-equipo-rayos-dental-odontologico-2-anos-gtia-odontotienda-_JM19:27
steve|mwpwrak: http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/113840144/KODAK_RVG_6000_DIGITAL_X_RAY.html19:27
wpwrakdon't seem to have it it on "our ebay" :-(19:30
steve|moh well.. there are just so many awesome toys out there..19:31
wpwrakwolfspraul, adamw_, roh: the samples will take a little longer. with the footprint issues that still needed resolving, i couldn't start before yesterday afternoon, and i've been busy with other stuff most of today. so hopefully, i'll finish during wednesday.19:59
wolfspraulwhat is a day?20:01
wpwrakroh: also, the mechanical sample won't be perfect. my boards shift a little when milling, which particularly affects atusb in an uneven way. so one side gets a little too wide and the other too short. i think the pcb maker will add their own flaws, so there's probably no use in optimizing my process down to the last micron.20:01
wpwrakroh: atben works better, so there, i think i'll have tolerances < 100 um.20:03
adamw_wpwrak, i haven't asked maker for how they cut edge.20:04
wpwrakroh: (the worst tolerance in atusb is a bit more than 200 um for now. may change a bit after etching.)20:04
wpwrakadamw_: just tell them it has to be very precise ;-) microsd tolerances20:04
wpwrakadamw_: about 0.1 mm tolerance are probably okay. but more would be trouble. i also made atusb with relatively narrow margins. after all, if we have a process that can produce atben, they'll be able to handle atusb too :)20:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: hah, three days ! of course, still better than the usual "add one, multiply with two, then convert to the next higher unit" rule. that would be 2 days -> 6 weeks :)20:08
kristianpaullol http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.co/MCO-16653901-rayos-x-dental-portatil--_JM price 1000usd too20:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: (video) a pickup tool and some hot air + flux will help a lot too20:32
kristianpauloh, chipquick is a kit20:36
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, contains all you need. the important thing is the special solder. all the rest is stuff you probably have already.20:38
kristianpaulis like magic that solder20:43
kristianpaulvery usefull20:43
wpwrakyeah. it's quite nice to have when you need it :)20:44
wpwrakzrafa: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/21:40
wpwrakzrafa: HP paper on the left, the other paper on the right.21:40
wpwrakzrafa: pretty good. it blurs a bit more but in return covers up some fine cracks.21:41
wpwrakcolor: red = must be fixed. orange = should be fixed. yellow = imperfect but harmless.21:42
wpwrakah, missed two on the HP side. well, only oranges :)21:43
kristianpaulHow thin is the thinner path?21:44
kristianpaulI wonder if i can plot it..21:44
kristianpaulHow do you get the colored squares??21:45
wpwrakthere, updated21:45
wpwrakgimp :)21:45
kristianpaulah, you !21:45
kristianpaulFor a moment i tought was wpwrak/ocr ;-)21:45
wpwrakbrushes, "square (10x10) blur", pencil, scale 5, opacity 50%21:46
wpwrakyup. human ocr :)21:46
wpwrakthinner path .. you mean the trace width ?21:46
kristianpaulyes that one21:46
kristianpauls/thinner path/trace width21:46
wpwrak8 mil21:46
kristianpaulno no, argg i dont get well express21:50
kristianpaulthickness !21:50
kristianpaulis that right word for this topic?21:50
kristianpaulpath thickness21:51
kristianpaultrace *21:51
wpwrakwidth, thickness, it's all the same21:51
wpwrakor do you mean in the Z direction ?21:52
kristianpaulX and Y21:53
wpwrak8 mil then :)21:54
kristianpaulMy tought was, i wonder if i can plot it using a specialized pen and my current "cnc"21:54
kristianpaulbut thats the bigger?21:54
wpwrakbigger traces are 10 mil, 20 mil, and 58 mil for the feed line21:58
wpwrakyou don't see much of the 20 mil trace, though. i use it to tweak the shape of the feed line21:58
wpwrak(plotter) i would just use a laser printer. they're cheap and very accurate :)21:59
kristianpaulI just wanted to avoid adional steps on transfer22:01
kristianpaulI have a laser printer (Samsung),22:01
zrafawpwrak: ah nice22:20
zrafawpwrak: so it is useful right? (alternative paper)22:21
wpwrakyeah, looks good. it's not as precise as the hp paper, but i think it's good enough for my 8 mil process. i could probably even do 7 mil, maybe 6 mil.22:22
wpwrakit has some issue with covering area, though. not sure yet, there they come from.22:22
wpwrake.g., here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/back-alt-paper.jpg22:23
wpwrakvs. here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/back-hp-paper.jpg22:24
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