#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2011-01-21

rjeffriesneed to catch up00:30
kyakqi-bot: hi!01:19
wpwrakadamw_: has wolfgang already told you what "production fixture" i have in mind for the initial flashing of the atusb board ? :)02:53
wpwrakadamw_: i.e., http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-use.jpg02:54
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-closer.jpg02:54
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-pogo.jpg02:54
adamw_wpwrak, not yet. :-)02:54
wpwrakadamw_: do you think you'll survive with this kind of setup for ~100 units ?02:54
adamw_for atusb 100 units?02:55
wpwrakyup02:55
wpwrakroh: (lasered antenna) seems that you have a lot of interesting research ahead of you :)02:56
adamw_this is "production fixture" I can make it.02:57
adamw_but my question won't be only that.02:57
wpwraki'd send you a pair of these critters, ben cable and pogo pins02:57
adamw_1, find a free space to verify the transmission & receive performance is my concern.02:58
wpwraki think they work reliably enough, just a bit unusual02:58
wpwrakyup, the testing process ... i now have a packet error rate test in the atrf utilities. so that should help.02:59
adamw_for a trial run, your this idea is quite enough. If need, I may make an real fixture to hook up<connection> without manually touching.02:59
adamw_hmm..sounds you already well-known.03:00
wpwrakfor the free space, you probably don't need anything overly nice. probably just a large enough table and you're good for testing whether the board has been correctly assembled.03:00
wpwraki.e., i would expect "bad" boards to fail in a very noticeable way, not just be a little worse. well, we can also just declare that "just a few dB" worse is okay for now :)03:01
adamw_so you need to have a near field test on your side first to show "PASS' or "FAIL' displayed on PC host program!03:01
adamw_then I survive! Or I dead. :-)03:02
wpwrak(near field) yes, that's the idea03:02
adamw_your report today is some equivalent 'far field' performance.03:03
wpwraki did antenna sensitivity tests with about 3 m between sender and receiver in a largely empty room. not an anechoic chamber of course, but the best i have. then, for more interactive debugging, i just had things arranged in my lab. about 1 m between sender and receiver, lots of things laying around. and general behaviour in this "dirty" setup was similar to the cleaner one. so i think the near field isn't too bad03:04
adamw_so please write a good procedure to test 'near field' on said in 2 ~3 meter free space without large metal surrounding the circle.03:05
wpwrakand in addition, i did these "real life" far field tests, yes03:05
adamw_yeah...i saw your apartment layout! :-) It's real.03:05
wpwrakdo you have a spectrum analyzer ? or if you don't, will you be able to borrow one ?03:06
adamw_so take some time to make some experimental data in 'near field' test.03:06
adamw_hmm...I don't have SA, I can try to borrow or go to some where to test.03:07
wpwrakfor the field test, i was thinking of something like this: take one pc/laptop with a known to be good atusb. let this be the receiver. then put a known to be good DUT at whatever place you have (with laptop, for atusb, or ben, for atben)03:08
adamw_you should do a very clean laying around like 1 ~2 meters to get your data to be as threshold control to determine shown on PC side to indicate PASS or FAIL.03:08
adamw_:-)03:08
adamw_hmm...like that..03:09
wpwrakthe send a test signal with maximum TX power and check the error pattern. adjust TX power down until errors start to appear.03:09
wpwrakthen take this as a reference setting03:10
adamw_surely I am not sure your f/w needed to be calibrate to fix now...03:10
wpwrak(clear 1-2 m) yes, that would be good03:10
adamw_yeah..do a reference value for threshold setting , TX power, RSSI level.03:10
wpwrakif you can have a spectrum analyzer, it's easier to find any distortions. i.e., you'd see immediately if something is wrong03:11
adamw_surely.03:12
wpwraklike here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tst-cw/03:12
adamw_you don't worry that SA, I can operate that. :)03:12
adamw_i just don't have it now.03:12
adamw_:-)03:12
wpwrakand you'd also see if you have changes caused by orientation or foreign objects. e.g., i've seen the spectrum change by about 10 dB just depending on where my body is.03:13
adamw_haha...03:13
adamw_I was always stayed in chamber before...03:13
adamw_well the better to find one here can support me. :-)03:13
wpwrak(sa) yeah, i know that you can that :) just convincing you that it's really useful to have for this03:13
adamw_not sure the new guy Wolfgang met can do or not?03:15
wpwrakunfortunately, i didn't think of telling wolfgang earlier about the spectrum analyzer. there's a company in germany that makes fairly inexpensive ones. he could have bought one and brought it.03:15
wpwraknaw, i mean for production testing. i suppose you'd want to do that locally, not send to germany etc.03:16
adamw_ha ..I didn't bought from OM.03:16
wpwrakwell, joachim has a spectrum analyzer (at ccc), so that would be a plan B03:16
wpwrakthe low-cost analyzer i was thinking of is only about EUR 400. but shipping would be expensive because it comes in a large box.03:17
adamw_hmm...you may need to think a schedule first...then to see if Wolfgang have idea for newest plan.03:17
adamw_i can get cheaper, just need to ask/check here.03:17
wpwrakthis is what i had in mind: http://spectran.com/Handheld_Spectrum_Analyzer.htm#903:18
wpwrak(cheaper than EUR 400) ah, that's good. of course, you're at the source for low-cost stuff :)03:18
adamw_HF-4040?03:19
wpwrakyup03:19
wpwrakah, sorry, EUR 50003:20
wpwrakthey also have one for EUR 350, but i think the HF-4040 would be worth the difference03:20
adamw_hm..I won't have further action until Wolfgang tell me a real schedule. :-)03:21
adamw_hmm..i see.03:21
wpwrak(real schedule) also depends on your other activities, i guess03:21
wpwrakmy plan is to make a few protoypes of the final design. then send a pair of atben/atusb to you as references, and one pair to roh as mechanical samples.03:22
wpwrakthen you can play with the production test setup. ah, is it convenient for you to use two PCs for this or would you rather connect everything to the same PC ?03:23
adamw_to (same PC+ atusb) with (BEN + atben)03:24
wpwrakokay, then i need to add one option to my usb code to let you select which device to talk to if you have more than one connected to your pc. should have that already somewhere in my old openmoko stuff ...03:26
adamw_sounds good. :)03:27
wpwrakatben has no persistent state, so all it needs is the testing. atusb needs flashing. there are two steps: upload the boot loader with the pogo pin thing, then plug it into USB and download the rest of the firmware via DFU.03:27
wpwrakany later firmware upgrades can also be made with DFU03:28
wpwrakafter DFU, it resets into the regular firmware, so you can then test without disconnecting03:30
adamw_ok,..just write proceduces in somewhere wiki..then I learn when we get schedule to start. the (real schedule) yes depends on other activities. :)03:30
adamw_right now I could not digest..:-) but it's real great to see your report today.03:31
wpwrak(document the process) will do that, yes. also make a little script around the commands or such03:32
wpwrakby the way, for the board cutting at the pcb maker, how do i make sure they're cutting the board precisely at the right place ? what i currently have is this:03:34
wpwrakhttp://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atben/README03:34
adamw_good..you know me03:34
wpwrak(last item)03:34
wpwrak(you need to view it with a monospaced font or it won't look right)03:35
adamw_digesting...03:36
wpwrakhmm, maybe i should make a PDF of it. just a sec03:37
adamw_hard to understand your 'stacking'...03:37
adamw_are u trying to say 'Don't cut antenna route?' while making pcb?03:39
adamw_in 'c2-closer.jpg'?03:39
wpwrakah, not cutting the antenna is important too :) but no, i mean that the board cut needs to be very precise anyway, because it has to be shaped like a uSD card (8:10 card :)03:43
adamw_hm...when I get your sample and see your gerber, I will send to pcb maker to check. Two makers I dealed with now they have uSD card capability.03:46
adamw_so I may need to check the uSD's specification on pcb definition.03:47
adamw_i bet you already have such data, haven't it?03:47
wpwrakhere we are: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/edge.pdf03:47
wpwrakthe uSD spec. yeah, measured it. with the help of Ornotermes' high resolution scan :)03:48
wpwrakthe yellow thing is the PCB edge as drawn in kicad03:49
wpwrakthere, i used a 5 mil line03:49
adamw_moment03:50
adamw_express picker is come...03:51
wpwraknow, my definition is that the center of that line shall be the real pcb edge. so the tool needs to be offset accordingly. the question is what the pcb makers expect. i.e., whether they can handle the line being technically zero-width, whether they need it to be offset by the line width, whether they also need a specific line width (to match the tool), etc.03:51
wpwrakupdated the PDF. should be a bit more readable now03:53
qwebirc20929hi I need some help concerning unbricking my nanonote03:56
qwebirc20929wolfspraul may you please help me?03:57
qwebirc20929I used one euro coin in place of carbonized rubber that I have not03:58
wpwrakqwebirc20929: wow. isn't that huge ?03:58
qwebirc20929I also tried with a piece of coca cola litter03:58
qwebirc20929not too much03:59
qwebirc20929I thought It might connect the two pins03:59
wpwrakhmm, it has a rounded edge ... might be tricky03:59
wpwrakif you have tweezers, they may work better03:59
wpwrakor very small scissors04:00
qwebirc20929unfortunately I do not have here04:01
wpwrakor maybe take some aluminium foil, crumple it to give it some pointy peaks, and use that04:01
adamw_wpwrak, the dot line is you imagine the pcb edge (thus is the V-Cut area?)?04:05
adamw_wpwrak, i think i need git clone yours first. Otherwise I can't follow you.04:06
wpwrakthe volume between the dotted lines is what the mill would remove, yes. you need a straight cut, not a V cut.04:07
wpwrakfor the cutting, the CNC mill needs the path for the center of the tool. the question is how the pcb makers go from the board edge as drawn in kicad to this path.04:09
wpwrakdepending on what they need, the data may need some prior conversion04:09
adamw_hmm..after I totally get your point, then you go further steps.04:10
wpwraki have a tool to do that sort of math. doesn't output gerber yet, but that wouldn't be too difficult to add. (i used this tool with my mill, where i have the same type of transform to make)04:10
wpwraksorry ;-))04:10
adamw_can you generate gerber then I check again?04:11
adamw_or I generate here.04:11
adamw_to see first. cloning..04:11
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atben-PCB_Edges.gbr04:12
qwebirc20929I tried with a paper clip but the red led does not turn on for a while.. If I do not use the paper clip to connect the two pins the red led flashes for a while04:12
qwebirc20929I will go04:13
qwebirc20929to buy tweezers04:13
wpwrakthis is the board outline. let me draw a top view04:13
adamw_yeah. draw a top view with atben pcb outline ..i still can't get your idea.04:17
adamw_i opened pcb atben pcb design...04:17
wpwrakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/top.pdf04:18
wpwrakleft is the board outline as shown in kicad04:18
wpwrakright is the board i want. i.e., cut along the _center_ of the pcb edge line as shown in kicad04:19
adamw_hmmm...got your idea totally now.04:20
adamw_thanks the drawing. :)04:20
adamw_I need to study the formal uSD specification on dimension.04:21
adamw_Does your design already meet uSD dimension or you just fit atben in BEN and make your won pcb?04:21
adamw_well...I need to ask pcb maker for this.04:22
wpwrakmy dimensions are here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/8_10-card.ps04:22
wpwrakthis should be very close to the real uSD dimensions. (i don't have the original spec)04:23
adamw_hmm...i see now.04:23
wpwrakso i need the pcb makers to just do exactly what my file says :)04:24
adamw_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD04:24
adamw_there's a link at the bottom to check specification.04:25
wpwrakbut the question is how the edge line gets interpreted by them. maybe they already interpret it in this way. maybe they offset the tool by half the line width. maybe they have a minimum line width. maybe they'll just adapt to whatever we tell them.04:25
adamw_if yours doesn't come with standard, you may need to modify..04:25
adamw_yes I see. I'll ask them that how they produce & cut it veritically.04:26
wpwrakthe microSD mechanical specification is not open. only for SD assoc members :)04:26
wpwrakbut i think my design is close enough :) handles exactly like a real uSD card.04:27
adamw_yes, could probably just alternatively use tool to change or they can handle.04:27
adamw_really?...not open? hmm...interesting.04:28
wpwrakwell, the real card is a bit thinner - 0.7 vs. the 0.8 mm of my PCB. but that's something i can't control. besides, the 0.8 mm may actually make it wobble a bit less04:28
wpwrakso with the edge, there are basically three questions:04:29
wpwrak1) can they do this accurately enough at all ? we shouldn't be the only ones with narrow tolerances, but not every pcb shop may be able to handle this.04:29
wpwrak2) how do they handle the tool position with respect to that PCB Edge line. in particular, can they align it such that it cuts along the edge ?04:30
qwebirc20929I found the tweezers04:31
wpwrak3) are there any limitations for the PCB Edge line ? e.g., do they require a specific width ? (this would be the case if they treat it directly as a toolpath without any conversion)04:31
wpwrakqwebirc20929: whee ! should be easier now. just make sure you disconnect usb for ~30 seconds before trying04:32
qwebirc20929so the sequence3 is the following ..04:32
qwebirc20929step one disconnect usb cable from both side04:33
qwebirc20929step two connect the two pins with the tweezers04:33
qwebirc20929step tree connect the nn to notebook while the pin are connected by tweezers04:34
qwebirc20929the pins sorry04:34
wpwrakqwebirc20929: yup, sounds good04:34
qwebirc20929then have a look at watch lsusb terminal04:34
wpwrakqwebirc20929: it's probably difficult to keep the pins shorted while connecting the usb cable to the ben. so i'd add04:35
qwebirc20929there is no need to press the on button04:35
wpwrakstep 1.5: connect the USB cable on the Ben side04:35
adamw_wpwrak, I'll let you know after I know.04:35
wpwrakthat way, when you connect USB, you don't have mechanical forces working against the tweezers04:35
wpwrakadamw_: thanks !04:36
wpwrakqwebirc20929: the on button is not needed04:36
wpwrakqwebirc20929: important: the time while the ben has no power should be ~30 seconds. otherwise, it may not properly discharge and thus not reset.04:37
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system remove sshfs, not working under dropbear ssh server http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/376949e04:38
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add vm.overcommit_memory = 1 sysctl.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/775a29c04:38
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: emacs, strip binary after build http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/04bb8f804:40
qwebirc20929wow lsusb watch works04:43
qwebirc20929please add it in the wiki the issue of 30 seconds04:43
wpwrakcongratulations !04:43
qwebirc20929beacuse it sounds crucial04:44
wolfspraulqwebirc20929: I see wpwrak already helped you unbrick your Ben. wonderful!04:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: seems that time time-to-drain is missing (the 30 secs) ?04:44
qwebirc20929it is not mentioned04:44
wpwraks/time //04:44
qwebirc20929on the wiki04:44
wolfspraul30 seconds sounds like a lot, I doubt more than 10 is ever needed04:44
qwebirc20929so users could become frustrated04:45
wpwrakwould be good to add. it's a bit longer than most people would intuitively assume04:45
wolfspraulqwebirc20929: you don't have the carbonized rubber button? (sorry long backlog haven't read it all yet)04:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think it's more than 10 sec. something around 20. 30 is with a bit of safety margin.04:45
qwebirc20929no sir04:45
qwebirc20929I used the tweezers04:45
wolfspraulwhy not? it's included with every Ben. comes in a small plastic bag.04:45
wolfspraulthe risk of tweezers is that you apply to much force and scratch the board, or scratch/rip off the pads04:46
qwebirc20929It was not in the bug04:46
wolfspraulbut you made it already :-)04:46
qwebirc20929bag sorry04:46
wolfspraulstrange04:46
wpwrakone item for the ya wishlist: connect that usb boot to a real button ;-)04:46
wolfsprauldid you see a small plastic bag?04:46
qwebirc20929yes I did04:46
wpwrak(that is, if we still need it then)04:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: we tried, but it was surprisingly hard because of some timing issue.04:46
qwebirc20929but there was not04:46
wolfspraulthe bricking problem should mostly go away if our software were more robust04:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: timing issues with a button ? :)04:47
wolfspraulI blame usbboot :-)04:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: it's a long story, seriously both Adam and Carlos tried but failed to make it work...04:47
qwebirc20929someone forgot or maybe it dropped while I was exploring it for the first time04:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: then people will write new, less robust software ;-)04:47
qwebirc20929now I would install this openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.2010.07.07.bin04:48
qwebirc20929beacuse I would like to boot 4gb with debian04:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm. you'd have to connect the button to some gpios .. if there's weird stuff on these at reset time, that could cause trouble. but that's the only issue i could think of.04:49
qwebirc20929on the internet is written that is better for 4gb microsd card isn't rue?04:49
qwebirc20929this is the link I followed to unpack debian on the sd card http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=53504:52
wolfspraulqwebirc20929: where did you get that binary from?04:52
wolfspraul2010.07.07 sounds old04:53
qwebirc20929and where they say to use this particular uboot ...04:53
wolfspraulwhy don't you just run reflash_ben.sh ?04:53
qwebirc20929could I do it right now?04:53
wolfspraulhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/NanoNote/Ben/latest/04:53
wolfspraulthe latest OpenWrt images are here04:53
wolfspraulwhere did you get this binary from?04:54
wolfsprauland why did you try to reflash a kernel into page 0, overwriting u-boot?04:54
wolfspraulwherever you get your instructions from, it's wrong :-)04:54
kyakmost people who have bricking problems with Ben were giving a try to debian.. maybe, in fact, there are wrong instructions for flashin debian into Ben spreaded around the Internet?04:56
qwebirc20929so please inform the author of that web page04:56
qwebirc20929or I will tell him when I will have time04:56
wpwrakkyak: on last count, i think it was 100% debian ;-)04:56
kyakwpwrak: yeah, i'm just trying to find possible excuses for debian :)04:57
wpwrakkyak: well, there was the nerase bug. there probably are still many broken usbboots in circulation04:57
wolfspraulxiangfu: that's your page04:57
qwebirc20929okay may I run reflash.sh script now?04:57
wolfspraulyou can try. you already went through the worst possible experience, it cannot get worse!04:58
wolfspraulyou are hardened now - no more fear.04:58
wolfspraulworst case you overwrite u-boot again and have to short the pins again :-)04:58
wpwrakwith the ben, the only thing to fear is fear itself :)04:58
xiangfuqwebirc20929: this page: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Debian  is up to date05:01
wolfspraulxiangfu: you should correct or delete the page with wrong information (I cannot load it right now so I don't know what it says...)05:02
wolfspraulor just put a link to better instructions there05:03
wolfspraulif you want to be perfect you can leave the old page as is, but add a clearly visible note at the top that the information is outdated, with a link to a better page05:03
xiangfuoh.. but here are a lot of old page in that blog. I will add the wiki link to that page.05:03
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes.05:03
xiangfuwolfspraul: that is better :)05:03
wolfspraulsure no rush, just in principle.05:04
wolfspraulmisleading information is much worse than no information at all.05:04
wolfspraulof course we are all dealing with progress, and there is tons of outdated stuff everywhere05:04
xiangfuabout build progress. now there are only two packages not compile in build hosts: php5 and plplot05:05
xiangfualso I update my build script file. using make "make package/symbiclink" not "./scripts/feeds ..." anymore05:06
xiangfuI need go. see you guys later.05:07
qwebirc20929I would understand how to manage openwrti graphic interface05:30
qwebirc20929what keyboard buttons could I use?05:31
wolfspraulqwebirc20929: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Gmenu2x05:41
qwebirc20929wolfsspraul reflash.sh has finished its job05:44
qwebirc20929What is the correct sequence now?05:45
qwebirc20929unplug usb cable05:45
qwebirc20929reinsert battery05:45
qwebirc20929and then press on button and wait for 20s05:45
qwebirc20929Am I right?05:45
wolfspraulsure sounds good05:47
wolfsprauldon't hesitate this is a consumer quality product, you can play with it a little, it will not break05:47
wolfspraulif anything then the software is not consumer quality yet...05:48
wolfspraulqwebirc20929: is it booting?05:48
qwebirc20929just a second please05:48
qwebirc20929it is sir05:49
wolfspraulgood05:50
wolfspraulthat's how it should be05:50
wolfspraulI don't know what your plans are, but very roughly I would suggest you play with this a litle, go through some apps.05:51
wolfspraulif you like adventures, you can then also try Jlime05:51
wolfspraulbut get a bit more familiar with the device first05:51
qwebirc20929I I have run ebook but the nn is freezing05:52
qwebirc20929I can not use ctrl alt f1 etc to switch to terminal05:52
qwebirc20929I sounds like nn stopped itself05:53
qwebirc20929now the screen is off05:53
qwebirc20929and it does not turn on anymore05:54
qwebirc20929perhaps is the battery05:55
wolfspraulone by one05:55
wolfspraulwhich ebook app did you run?05:55
wolfspraulsome apps have a slow startup time on the first launch after reflashing05:55
wolfspraulup to 60 seconds (is a bug, should be improved)05:56
wolfspraullike stardict for example05:56
qwebirc20929now is turning on again .. with usb cable05:56
wolfspraulyou can try ctrl-alt-f205:56
qwebirc20929abook05:56
wolfspraulthe device does not properly shut itself down when the battery is low, I believe05:56
wolfspraulin that case it will just drain the battery, until the screen turns white and the devices goes off05:56
wolfspraula bit rude :-)05:56
qwebirc20929yes I can05:57
qwebirc20929I can see busybox05:57
qwebirc20929now I would run xiafu debian05:58
qwebirc20929I will write halt06:00
qwebirc20929and then on + M together Am I right?06:00
wolfspraulthat boots from the flash card, right?06:00
qwebirc20929hope so06:00
wolfspraulI believe it does.06:00
wolfspraulDebian will be very slow, in my opinion it's unusable on the Ben.06:00
wolfsprauljust for demo purposes :-)06:00
qwebirc20929I will set up 1gb of swap .. that should help06:00
kyakhelp making it even more slower :)06:01
qwebirc20929it did not boot06:01
qwebirc20929now I have openwrti06:02
qwebirc20929I have another question06:02
qwebirc20929I order on the web some nokia batteries 3.7 V 850 mmAh06:02
qwebirc20929but I am not sure if they will fit on nn06:03
qwebirc20929Do you have any hints on battery for nn ..?06:04
qwebirc20929sorry any hint06:04
kyakthere is a compatiblity list on wiki06:04
qwebirc20929the second thing is about building a nn cluster using an usb hub... Is it possible?06:05
kyakif i said "it is possible", would you know how to do it? :)06:09
qwebirc20929I know how to do it with a regularar 386 amd64 mixed cluster using a classical ethernet hub06:10
qwebirc20929but here the archicterure is different06:12
kyaksince Ben has Ethernet over USB capability i guess yes, it is possible06:12
mthiirc the NN is a USB device, not a USB host06:12
mthyou'd need one host device on such a network, I think06:12
qwebirc20929sure06:12
kyakyeah, not a host06:12
qwebirc20929yes06:12
qwebirc20929sure06:12
qwebirc20929I would be challenging to do it06:13
qwebirc20929beacuse the energy consumption is lower06:13
qwebirc20929and the principles are the sames of bigger 386 amd64 brothers06:13
qwebirc20929because sorry06:13
kyakvery interesting to know the results, don't hesitate to post them06:14
mthyou could use a netbook, a usb hub and a bunch of NanoNotes06:14
qwebirc20929yes sir that is one possible idea06:18
qwebirc20929I would install gnu OCTAVE06:18
qwebirc20929on debian is still possible06:19
qwebirc20929and easy to do06:19
qwebirc20929all the packages are ready06:19
qwebirc20929for xburst arch mpisel tec..06:20
qwebirc20929ok06:26
qwebirc20929Now I have to go Thanks to all for your patience and help06:35
zrafabah wolf is not more here..07:50
wpwrakmaybe having dinner07:51
zrafawhich applications are the stars for nn?07:51
Jay7just network outage (ping timeout)07:51
Jay7zrafa: prboom! :)07:51
zrafawpwrak: I am asking because I always read that Debian is slow and unusable.. But, on the other hand I see that official openwrt qi version is full of applications for console07:52
zrafawpwrak: so I guess that those applications would work okey using Debian07:52
zrafawpwrak: and also, those would have full features and no less07:52
Jay7and that console organizer, noticed in ML.. can't remember it's name07:52
Jay7some 3 letters07:53
Jay7something like 'nhm'07:53
zrafaJay7: prboom is light.. it should work okey in Debian on fb07:53
zrafaI need to test Debian soon07:54
zrafabc, top, vim, etc.. none of them should be slow in Debian. I wonder why is unusuable07:56
wpwrakzrafa: (slow debian) maybe an unoptimized boot process or such. can't quite imagine that the "normal" apps would be much slower than on other distros07:56
wpwrakzrafa: maybe fatter, with man pages and stuff07:56
zrafawpwrak: yeah, but that does not do Debian slower (more files)07:57
zrafawpwrak: on the other hand it seems that if I test Debian my nn will have a broken bootloader after installation :P07:57
wpwrakzrafa: well, you have idbg. with it, the usb boot is very very easy ;-)07:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: if we wanted to embed atben into a future product, how hard is it in terms of antenna tuning, or reusing what we have currently in general?08:01
wolfspraulcan we reuse the layout? or totally new layout needed?08:01
rohuff08:01
wolfspraulcan we cut & paste the antenna? how about the PCB specs?08:01
Action: roh drilled all the shielding sheets08:01
wpwraktotally new layout. you also have more layers, so you make everything denser. yes, you can reuse the same antenna.08:02
wpwrakafter that, you need to measure ;-)08:02
wolfspraulroh: congrats! how long did it take you?08:02
wpwrakthe "core parts" seem to be pretty stable. even if you mess with the layout a lot, nothing really changes.08:03
rohwolfspraul: didnt stop it08:03
rohi wrote some gcode and used the mill08:03
rohit fits just like that. 3mm more and i couldnt use the mill ;)08:03
rohmade some pics08:04
wolfspraulnice08:08
wolfspraulgcode! :-) I vaguely remember this from somewhere...08:08
wolfspraulfor the sake of it, commit it along with the dxf :-)08:08
wpwrakroh: do you write gcode or just generate it ?08:10
rohthis time i just wrote it down08:15
roheasy enough for 4 holes08:15
wpwrakah okay. no big deal then :)08:17
rohit takes more time to manually remove the splinters08:17
roh'entgraten'08:17
rohand i dont have stickers to isolate yet. i got a dxf for it.. will find out if it makes more sense to lasercut or use a cutting plotter for that08:18
rohthis shielding thing eats much more time than initially thought08:19
wpwrak(splinters) that would be burr. the process is called deburring. and yeah, do i hate it, too :)08:21
wpwrak(isolate) why not do that before cutting so you cut both at the same time ? may also reduce the burr08:22
rohnah. i need clean metal around the holes08:27
rohthats where the sheet connects to the shielding of the board via the metal screws and distance pieces08:27
wpwrakah, i see08:30
wpwrakroh: btw, have atmel released their debugWIRE spec by now ? or has it been at least reverse engineered ?08:48
steve|mwpwrak: neither nor afaik09:03
wpwraksteve|m: :-( the large number of signals needed for in-circuit programming is a bit annoying ...09:14
steve|mwpwrak: is programming via dW even possible?09:15
steve|mwpwrak: and then again, how do you enable the debug wire fuse?09:23
rohwpwrak: dunno.. never used that09:27
wpwraksteve|m: hmm. good question :)09:31
wpwrakroh: you said that the AVR USB chips are well supported by open software. so there's a basic USB stack ? what I need is just control transfers. an existing DFU implementation would be nice. or else, i could port the one i did for the f32x.09:37
rohthere is lufa09:38
rohhttp://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/LUFA.php09:38
wpwraksounds quite decent. has a lot more than i need :)09:40
rohits the atmel flavour of dfu i think09:41
wpwraki like this: "my first foray into the world of USB" [...] "LUFA is being used all over the world, in many applications - both free and commercial."09:41
rohdunno whats the difference09:41
wpwrakas i understand it, LUFA is the whole stack. and there's DFU in there too.09:42
rohack09:42
rohthere are just differen flavours of dfu it seems09:42
wpwrakah, that would be stefan's problem, no ? ;-)))09:44
rohhrhr09:44
wpwrakwell, if atmel did anything dirty, we can also undo it. the joy of having sources :)09:44
rohthere are tools already09:44
lekernelhttp://www.fourwalledcubicle.com/Internship.php09:44
rohdfu-programmer09:44
wpwraklekernel: nice :) but norway, in winter ? argh09:46
wpwrakroh: btw, some of my silicone experiments: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/silicone-coating.jpg09:57
wpwrakroh: and for rework, you can cut it open: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/coat-cut.jpg09:58
wpwrak(re-sealing may be a different story, though :)09:58
bartbesfor the horny ones among you: there's a better use for silicone09:58
rohheh09:58
wpwrakbartbes: let's just say that there are many reasons for men to appreciate silicone ;-)09:58
steve|mdipping in hot-glue should work fine as well :)09:59
wpwrakroh: (the pics are the same as in the mail i just sent to the list)09:59
wpwraksteve|m: ah, that would be another option. haven't played with that stuff yet.10:00
bartbeswpwrak: and those are swhich modules?10:00
wpwrakbartbes: oh, various failed experiments. a few idbgs that went sour (the small ones), then one ftdi-bases c2 programmer that never worked, probably due to weirdness in the ftdi chip itself, and then one atusb that may have suffered braindamage due to repeated thermal stress.10:03
bartbesI'm really looking forward to atben and atusb10:03
wpwrakgood ! :)10:04
wpwraksteve|m: how hot does hot glue normally have to get before reaching minimum viscosity ?10:04
wpwrakah, i think i found it. polyamides, 200 C. not too bad.10:05
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: mv lus-plplot to Examples folder http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/15513ea10:05
lekernelargh10:06
steve|mwpwrak: yeah, I use it quite a lot for blobbing dirty hacks.. like http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/attachment/wiki/SciphoneDreamG2/sciphone_serial.jpg or http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/attachment/wiki/MobistelEL570/el570_serial_cable.jpg10:07
steve|m;)10:07
wpwrakah, nice. not as smooth as silicone, but perhaps more solid10:08
wpwrak(btw, instead of silicone, also PUR could be an option)10:09
rohbartbes: jap10:11
rohirgh10:11
rohwpwrak: yes. polyurethane stuff.. multicomponent plastics10:12
rohexpensive tho10:12
wpwraka bit more expensive than silicone (again, bathroom sealants) and also a bit harder to use (it thicker and thus needs more pressure)10:18
bartbeswpwrak: so what kind of data are you transmitting in your tests?10:19
wpwrakroh: of course, with the tiny quantities needed here, the material cost is pretty negligible. you can probably do hundreds of pieces with just one catridge10:19
wpwrakbartbes: in the ping test, just a locally generated sequence number, the last received sequence number, the crc, and a lot of uninitialized bytes for padding10:20
wpwrakbartbes: in the PER test, it's memset(packet, seq, 127); with "seq" a 8 bit counter. again, the sequence number10:21
bartbesso no protocol at all, really10:22
wpwrakbartbes: note: no CRC in the PER test. i then do a statistical analysis of the bytes to find which number i really have there. then i scan the packet for bad symbols (IEEE 802.15.4 used four-bit symbols that get send as one 16-bit "chip")10:23
wpwrakjust my protocol ;-) the bare essentials. no addresses or such. just length, my stuff, and maybe a CRC10:24
rohwpwrak: depends10:24
wpwrakanything else would only get in the way10:24
rohsome molding stuff goes bad when opened and needs to be used quite fast10:24
bartbeswpwrak: so you can't even guarantee we can browse teh internetz wirelessly?10:25
wpwrak(symbols/chips) that is, for the band we use here. 802.15.4 has a gazillion other modulation techniques, some quite different.10:25
wpwrakbartbes: nope, i can't guarantee it. if lightning strikes me today and everyone else who could connect the dots in the kernel tomorrow, then you can't :)10:26
bartbeswouldn't it be worth checking whether using 6lowpan actually yields results you can live with before going into mass production?10:27
wpwrakroh: sure. but you can just squeeze a little bit of the sealant out of the cartridge. then it lasts a while. it will eventually also cure inside the cartridge, but you have days if not weeks before that becomes a problem.10:27
bartbes(i.e. do a limited number first, send those out to the devs, then do a full production later?)10:27
wpwrakbartbes: i don't really expect any problems there.10:28
rohwpwrak: i meant the pur primers10:28
rohthe 2 component stuff10:28
wpwrakroh: ah, but now you're talking about sophisticated things ;-) anyway, there, the clock usually doesn't start ticking until you mix them. so just don't mix the whole cans at once :)10:29
wpwrakbartbes: the planned number will be relatively low anyway. 100 pieces. doesn't really make sense to go below that, due to high fixed costs.10:30
wpwrakbartbes: this will also be without certification and such. so sold as a development/experimental kit, not as an end-customer solution10:31
wpwrakbartbes: for certification, we'll need a real RF lab to look at things. this will also happen eventually, but all in due time10:31
wpwrakbartbes: the idea is to get the design we have out now, to get things rolling. beat the software into shape, gather usage experience, maybe collect some ideas for improvements, and all that.10:33
bartbesaww10:35
bartbesI want one10:35
wpwrakbartbes: no point in spending a decade on finding the perfect recipe for brioche while the masses are starving (with apologies to marie antoinette ;-)10:36
bartbesso I can use irc while on the can10:36
wpwrakyeah. that's roughly my goal, too ;-)10:36
bartbescoolest would be if I can do.. like computer maintenance jobs around the house10:37
bartbesand yet always have access to a set of linux tools10:37
bartbesso I can at least ping and stuff ;)10:37
bartbes(I'd probably ssh into my own comp, and do stuff from there)10:37
bartbesI could get fat, not walking up and down all those stairs10:37
wpwrakwell, it's a bit like wifi. not quite as fast, and doesn't go quite as far, but you shuold basically be able to do all the same things.10:41
bartbeswee10:43
wpwrakone little difficulty will be that 6LoWPAN is IPv6. so if you're not IPv6-capable, you need to make this transition, too. haven't looked into the details yet. even if the home network is IPv4-only, there ought to be some NAT-like translation mechansisms to run on the PC acting as gateway.10:43
bartbesI'd be so lazy I'd put a laptop somewhere close with the usb device if I have to10:43
bartbesdon't know about that10:43
bartbesI know all linuxes are ipv6 enabled10:44
bartbeswell, modern ones10:44
bartbesand windows has been for quite a while10:44
bartbesand though my router doesn't support it10:44
bartbesit's simply bypassed10:44
bartbesI occasionally use ipv6 connectivity on LAN already10:44
bartbesbut it's kind of useless10:45
bartbessince I know the ipv4 addresses10:45
bartbesbut the ipv6 ones are.. quite a bit harder10:45
bartbes;)10:45
wpwrakyeah, ipv6 addresses are good memory training ;)10:51
rohthere are openwrt routers which can be hacked to also do usb for about 18E10:51
wpwrakroh: some wpan-wifi gateway would be nice to have indeed10:52
rohif there is source somebody can package it for openwrt -> tadaa.wav10:53
wpwrakroh: you just have to make sure wifi is on a channel very far away :)10:53
rohtrue ;)10:53
rohstuff like this http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-wr741nd or some with already soldered usb10:54
bartbeswpwrak: I thought the same of my passwords10:54
bartbesbut when I just typed my computer's one in irc10:55
bartbesI realized not knowing them is more useful10:55
bartbes:P10:55
bartbesI should learn some more passwords by head10:56
wpwrakbartbes: you're making an interesting case for not knowing your password ;-))10:57
Action: bartbes just reencrypted his password db10:58
lekerneljava... what a pain10:58
wpwrakroh: are there routers with USB host ?10:58
lekerneli'm trying to run this rapidsmith tool...10:58
lekerneljava doesn't work10:58
lekerneland it's slow and memory hog, even though they say no10:58
rohwpwrak: sure. i think most of the usb capable ones do host10:59
rohfor usb-storage, printers or similar.. or umts modems10:59
wpwrakroh: wireless routers with printers ??10:59
wpwrakoh .. to drive the printer .. i see10:59
wpwrakhah, i had the mental image of a log printer connected to a mini-computer appear ;-)11:00
rohhttp://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/start has a list11:01
rohplastic routers are 400mhz mips cpus nowadays... with 64mb ram and 8mb spi flash11:02
rohhttp://www.xbitlabs.com/misc/picture/?src=/images/other/asus-wl500g-premium/image013.jpg&1=111:04
roh2x usb211:04
larscthere are even routes with usb device these days11:05
wpwrakusbnet, i suppose ?11:07
kristianpaul[silicone] dint look soo good11:07
kristianpaulmay be a second layer will improve shape11:11
wpwrakthe silicone just follows the shape of the components. and yes, i think a second layer may make it nicer.11:13
wpwrakgrr. seems to be hard to find wireless routers that are cheap, have usb host without soldering, that are supported by openwrt, and that you can get in argentina. there's a gazillion of tp-link here, all dirt-cheap, but they're either not supported or have no usb host. grmbl.11:24
kristianpaulfonera?11:26
kristianpaulah argentina, thats the barrier11:26
rjeffrieswerner: I like the silicon encapsulation idea. simple, cheap, nerdy11:30
wpwrakfor range extension, here's a nice antenna ;-) http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-102995108-antena-wifi-de-14-db-con-3-mts-de-cable-_JM11:35
wpwrak14 dB and only about USD 1511:36
wpwrakrjeffries: yeah, it's lowly growing on me. particularly after i discovered that it can be cut open quite cleanly11:36
wpwraks/lowly/slowly/11:36
kristianpaulhey, you should ask to the buenos aire libre people, they may have or be aware of usb-host capable wifi router11:37
rjeffrieswerner: Dockstar + atusb could be interesting. 3 full size USBs + 1 mini USB, a 1GHz ARM processor, 128MG RAM, Ethernet plus a couple of LEDs.11:38
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-103263646-router-wifi-movil-con-bateria-para-modems-usb-3g-laptops-_JM11:39
kristianpauldunno openwrt support11:39
rjeffriesre Dockstar: Debian, Arch (Plugapps.com) and even OpenWrt are available11:39
rjeffriesDockstar does not have wifi, but people use wifi dongles11:40
wpwrakfound one. finally: http://wiki.openwrt.org/toh/tp-link/tl-mr3420  http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-104720480-router-3g-375g-tp-link-wifi-300mbps-norma-n-tl-mr3420-_JM11:41
rjeffriesDockstar is low power ~4 watts. a lot of people are hacking it.11:41
wpwraka bit pricy in comparison. but a tidy package.11:46
wpwrakah wait ... doesn't have wlan11:47
wpwrakbut yes, for a wpan-to-ether gateway, why not. but it's probably easier to use a wlan router. that has ethernet too, plus all the rest.11:49
kristianpaulplus openwrt :-)11:50
roh_11:51
lekernelrapidsmith looks pretty good (except that it's written in Java)... it's running the xilinx tools with various options to get complete maps of the actual fpga chips :)11:57
lekernelthey're definitely on the right track11:57
wpwrakroh: what's your opinion on a simple silicone coat ? technology transfer may be a bit difficult in this case, but then, it as low-tech as we can get ;-)11:59
wpwraks/it/it's/11:59
rohdunno yet...i like something which gives hard surfaces12:08
rohi dont like it when pcbs get mechanical stress12:08
wpwrakthey'll get plenty of that anyway :-( at least the atben board. the only thing holding it is a bit of PCB going into the 8:10 card slot. and it has a pretty long lever to give it a good push every now and then.12:23
wpwrakatusb is safer, though. it's just a slightly oversized usb stick12:24
rohwpwrak: to be fair.. i'd wish to have mold-able abs+pc mix like used as in regular cases13:05
wpwrakhmm, sounds like a lot of work13:12
wpwrakroh: at least you have the heavy machinery for rapidly cutting metal molds. with my little mill, i prefer wood. beats crunching aluminium for days ;-)13:18
rohheh. yes.13:21
rohcan just take a 16mm diameter cutter and an aluminium block and go nuts13:21
rohstill takes time but eats through nicely13:21
wpwrakmeanwhile, i slowly grind with my 35 mil endmill at 0.2 mm/s or so, maybe doing 0.5 mm (Z) at a time ...13:33
wpwrakwhen my disk died a while ago, i actually lost my list of feed rates. so i'll have to determine those again :-(13:36
wpwrak(access points) the linksys/cisco WRT160N is also available here. it's listed as work in progress at openwrt13:48
wpwrakoh, wait .. that's 610N. darn13:49
wpwrak160N doesn't have USB. sigh.13:49
lekernelhttp://tinyletter.com/ronkjeffries13:50
rjeffriesthanks lekernal13:54
rjeffriesback to Dockstar: OpenWrt is running on it if I did not make that clear. I happen to use Debian on one, Plugapps on the other13:55
wpwrakah, now i found an 610N. expensive, though, USD 180 (local price)13:56
wpwraknice way to gather e-mail addresses ;-)13:58
wpwrakrjeffries: yes, but, say, a TP-Link TL-MR3420 or MR1043ND would have quite similar features, plus WLAN. similar price.14:05
wpwrakrjeffries: and such wireless routers can be found worldwide, without expensive shipping. even at remote places like argentina ;-)14:06
rjeffrieswpwrak that's cool. I got my Dockstars for $20 each so that was fun. agree that the wifi router as an extender or base station would be A Good Thing.14:18
rjeffries <wpwrak> nice way to gather e-mail addresses ;-) //what are you referring to?14:18
rohwpwrak: we can send you some cheap hw as carepackets ;)14:28
rohremoving the psu before14:28
wpwrakrjeffries: (gather addresses) that mailing list thing. no archive, so the only way to find out what's there is by subscribing. nice how people learn from facebook :)14:30
wpwrakroh: actually some HP paper would be nice :) i'm approaching my last sheet. and i'm not looking forward to re-evaluating my toner transfer process ...14:31
rohhp-paper? got a link?14:31
wpwrakand it seems that HP have stopped selling their paper in argentina :-(14:31
wpwraklemme find the name ...14:32
wpwrakC6039A14:32
wpwrakalso available in a larger package as C6979A14:33
rohwpwrak: uh.. thats letter... cant buy that here14:34
wpwrakyeah. dunno if they have the same paper in A4 as well. i guess they should.14:34
zrafawpwrak: we have tried another paper for ledtoy toner transfer which worked very well14:35
rohwpwrak: doesnt amazon.com deliver for you? ;)14:35
wpwrakzrafa: ah, which one ?14:36
zrafawpwrak: let me check..14:36
wpwrakroh: amazon should work, yes. do they sell paper now ? checking ...14:37
wpwrak"42 Used & new" ;-)14:38
zrafawpwrak: http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/51248905/Glossy_Photo_Paper/showimage.html14:39
wpwrakroh: "Currently, item can be shipped only within the U.S."14:39
rohhttp://www.mercateo.com/p/live~s.100*C1002-1063498/HP_Premium.html14:39
zrafawpwrak: glossy inkjet photo paper.. Our has the title and description in spanish14:39
zrafawpwrak: but the front is the same14:39
wpwrakzrafa: ah, looks interesting. where did you find it ?14:39
zrafawpwrak: no remember, but I remember I saw it on several book shops or similar shops which sell stuff for school14:40
zrafawpwrak: we have around 15 sheets yet, so if you want to try we can give you those14:41
rohi wonder if it would be cheaper to send it from somewhere else in latin america14:42
wpwrakroh: probably not. then you pay shipping to that place, their outrageous taxes, plus shipping to argentina. and often enough, the latter may even go via the US ...14:44
wpwrakzrafa: i may come back to that offer :) thanks !14:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: i do tonner transfer re-using sheets from a local magazine :-)14:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: playboy colombia ? ;-)14:55
kristianpaullol, not that one14:55
kristianpaulwell i used to, long time since i dint :(14:56
kristianpaulI need explore dual layer thin pcb some day :-)14:57
kristianpaulBut so far i dint had luck sourcing 0.8~ mm PCB14:57
zrafawpwrak: if no playboy colombia then maybe playboy venezuela14:59
Jay7hm.. good idea to re-use playboy to transfer toner :)15:00
Jay7it even may transfer some parts of images by accident :)15:01
rohwpwrak: how do you solder the parts on the atben/usb?15:02
rohhot air soldering station?15:03
rohor pizzaoven?15:03
rohto be fair.. i like the idea of atusb having a mini-usb-b socket instead of a usb-A plug directly15:04
rohhm. but one could also use a usb A male - female cable for that.15:06
rohi guess usb-A is more common15:06
Jay7which connector is used in mobile phones now?15:07
Jay7mini-B?15:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: (0.8 mm) digi-key PC44-ND  PCB COPPER CLAD 3 X 4.5" 2 SIDE15:07
wpwrakroh: such cables do exist. i got some from digi-key :)15:07
wpwrakJay7: mini and micro15:08
wpwrakroh: (solder) just iron. except for the crystal. there i use hot air.15:08
Jay7just use some then :)15:08
wpwrakroh: i get a lot of air pressure with hot air, so this blows away the solder. not sure if my station really works as it should. but it's good for removing excess solder ;-)15:09
kristianpaulwpwrak: i know, but i dont like digi-key as they dont send stuff by cheap postal mail...15:10
wpwrakroh: my toaster oven has trouble maintaining a good temperature. so i only use it on days when i feel particularly foolish :)15:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: are you sure they don't offer US parcel service ?15:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: let me re-check15:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: they do to argentina. of course, they have a great fedex rate too, so i now always use fedex15:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: do postal but is EMS15:12
rohhmmh15:12
kristianpauli need first class postal mail15:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: so, no advantage ?15:13
kristianpaul32.5 is not on my budget15:13
kristianpaulUSD^15:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: no :(15:15
wpwrakUSD 32.5 doesn't sound too bad ...15:16
kristianpaulfor me they do :-)15:17
wpwrakbuy more one item at a time :)15:17
wpwrakmore than15:17
kristianpaulyeah that probably a solution15:17
kristianpauls/that/thats15:17
rjeffrieswerner said: <wpwrak> rjeffries: (gather addresses) that mailing list thing. no archive, so the only way to find out what's there is by subscribing. nice how people learn from facebook :)15:27
rjeffrieswpwrak: that is a fait criticism. Tintletter.com is a new service, run by a one man band. I have already requested a way to allow now subscribers to peek.15:28
rjeffrieswpwrak: for now as a stopgap, there is this (no signup, lust look and see): https://ronkjeffries.posterous.com/experimental-newsletter-from-ron-k-jeffries15:30
rjeffries <roh> Please explain this comment: i like the idea of atusb having a mini-usb-b socket instead of a usb-A plug directly15:33
rjeffriesroh: for notebooks and POCs we need standard size usb-A.15:34
rjeffriess/POCs/PCs15:34
rjeffriess/tintletter.com/tinyletter.com15:35
rjeffriess/lust/just/  (funny typo I guess)15:35
wpwrakrjeffries: (look and see) also quite empty :)15:39
wpwrakgrmbl. does nobody make regulators with a damn current limiter anymore ? :-(15:40
rohldo or stepper?15:49
wpwrakldo. i need 3.3 V max 100 mA, an enable input, a current limit of max 400 mA, input min <= 4.5 max >= 5.5 V, ideally with "power good" output15:51
rjeffrieswpwrak I'll put a smaple issue or two up. Heh, this experiment JUST STARTED this week. taking baby steps15:51
rohwpwrak: octoparts cannot help?15:54
wpwrakroh: i'm fighting with the parametric search in digi-key. the problem is that there's no good indication of the current limit function15:55
wpwrakwell, if i drop the "power good" output requirement, i can find something15:59
steve|mwpwrak: http://www.national.com/mpf/LP/LP3981.html#Overview hm, this one is with 600mA current limit16:00
wpwrakway too high :-( i need it for a usb-powered device. the output may be shorted/overloaded, but then it still shouldn't overload usb.16:01
wpwraki.e., there's more circuit in the system that should continue to work if that regulator gets overloaded16:01
rohhttp://octopart.com/l78l33acutr-stmicroelectronics-52668516:01
rohhttp://octopart.com/partsearch/#search/requestData&filters%5Bcategory_id%5D%5B%5D=4320&filters%5Boutput_voltage%5D%5B%5D=3.3&filters%5Bnumber_of_outputs%5D%5B%5D=1&rangedfilters%5Boutput_current%5D%5Bmin%5D=0&rangedfilters%5Boutput_current%5D%5Bmax%5D=0.116:02
rohthe voltage filter doesnt work well.. but current and outputs seems to16:02
rohLP295116:03
steve|mwpwrak: http://www.national.com/mpf/LP/LP2985.html#Overview16:04
steve|m(LP2985) as far as I see from the datasheet, it has a 400mA limit16:05
wpwrakmmh, adjustable output voltage. don't like needing 1% resistors.16:05
rohhttp://octopart.com/lp2951cm/nopb-national+semiconductor-12644316:05
wpwraklp2985 has no on/off input16:06
wpwrakso far, i found this one http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=AP7311-33WG-7DICT-ND16:07
steve|mwpwrak: The LP2985 is shut off by driving the ON/OFF input low, and turned on by pulling it high.16:07
wpwrakooh .. there ! sorry :) everybody else has Vin in the upper left corner ;-)16:09
rohwpwrak: the lp2951 has also an on/off, is avail as fixed voltage version and can give you a overcurrent-error-output statis16:13
rjeffrieswprak have you considered adding a multicolor LED so atben and atusb indicate receive/transmit?16:13
wpwraklp2985 is even pin-compatible with the one from analog. nice :)16:13
wpwrakroh: lemme see ..16:14
rohdepends if thats interresting to you16:14
wpwrakpin-compatible with something else is always nice :)16:20
wpwrakbut the 2951 looks good indeed16:20
roh65cent or so16:23
wpwrakroh: perfect. thanks a lot !16:29
wpwrakrjeffries: naw. no i/o on atben. atusb at least gets a led, but just unicolor. it's currently only used for indicating boot state.16:31
wpwrakrjeffries: (boot state) when the mcu resets, it listens for about 1 s on USB for anyone trying to speak DFU to it. after that, it jumps to the application. while listening for DFU, the LED is on.16:33
wpwrakheh, i still have a few LP8345. my, is that old junk ...16:34
rjeffrieswpeak understood. on atusb I like the boot state led, good stuff. adding led(s) so transmission and recive are indicated would be awesome, cost impact is small, usefulness is high IMO16:39
wpwrakrjeffries: there are no i/o lines available for this on atben. also, the board is rather crowded as it is. i'm fighting for every tenth of a millimeter there :)16:40
wpwraki don't even have enough i/os to drive reset. fortunately, power-on reset works very well16:41
wpwrakbesides, you have a LED right on the other side of the ben. and 76800 colorful pixels all within easy reach ;-)16:42
rjeffrieswprak understood re atben. hope you will consider enhancing atUSB slightly. ;)16:55
wpwrakrjeffries: naw, doesn't really make sense. if you really want an activity led, it's already there. tx and rx happen in pairs anyway, and you won't be able to see a difference of a few milliseconds.17:11
bartbeswhat's DFU?17:15
wpwrakhttp://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/usbdfu10.pdf17:20
bartbeseek17:21
bartbespdf17:21
wpwrakprefer .doc ? ;-)17:22
bartbesI prefer not having to open any files17:22
bartbesnot at my own comp17:22
wpwrakinteresting affliction :)17:24
steve|mlol - /* warm fuzzies */17:25
steve|m(in the sample code of the DFU spec)17:28
wpwrakheh, hadn't noticed that one :)17:30
bartbeswpwrak: ah, so basically DFU is a spec about updating the firmware on usb devices via usb?17:32
wpwrakyup. kinda like tftp.17:32
bartbesbut doesn't it require a programmer on the usb devicde?17:33
bartbes*-d17:33
wpwrakyes. see http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/f32xbase/source/tree/master/fw/boot/17:34
bartbesI meant hardware, specifically17:35
wpwrakand it gets there with this http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/f32xbase/source/tree/master/f32x17:35
wpwrakand this http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-use.jpg17:35
wpwrakdfu is executes by the same microcontroller. just part of the falsh is reserved for it17:36
wpwrakfLAsh17:36
bartbesso the microcontroller can write to its rom17:37
bartbeswell that makes sense, I guess17:37
wpwrakyup. the boot loader itself is of course protected against overwriting17:38
bartbesclearly I forgot we're using a microcontroller17:38
bartbes;)17:38
bartbessomething that always interests me17:38
bartbesthe PROM you're using, how much writes will it support?17:39
wpwrakmin. 20k, typ. 100k17:40
steve|mwpwrak: aah, nice.. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/hotplate.jpg so this is what you're using for SMD reflow soldering? ;)17:40
wpwrak(the PROM is flash)17:40
wpwraksteve|m: i tried.  but it didn't go well. the two boards i made both acted mysteriously17:41
wpwraksteve|m: perhaps too much thermal stress by putting the board on and off the iron17:41
rjeffrieswpwrak said "tx and rx happen in pairs" Agree, they are supposed to happen in pairs, but in a range challenged situation or noise rf environment one could easilly transmit but not get anything bacl. That is interesting. ;)17:47
wpwrakwell, you could flash the led when an ack is missing. (ieee 802.15.4 always acks packets, much like wlan does)17:50
wpwrakmmh, fedex seem to be having a bit of weather trouble. can't imagine why. been nice and warm all day around here :)20:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: From you experience with CNC machines, how good is share the "power line" in wich it is connected, with let said other devices like a Milkymist One board and a scope :-)20:52
wpwraknot a problem at all20:52
kristianpaulI'm running out space here now, but i started an automatic loong print job,20:52
wpwrakwell, unless you have some real monster at home :)20:52
kristianpaulyou alredy know it, 3 steppers 1 DC motor, and some heaters20:53
kristianpaulI just wanted to be sure from experiene as i cant measure armonics in AC :/20:53
wpwraki keep my air conditioners away from the rest, but i don't worry about my mill. my mill draws as much power as a netbook.20:53
kristianpauloh sure20:53
wpwrakyou can check the power supply. it's probably quite benign.20:54
kristianpaulIs a standard ATX 400W power suply20:54
wpwrakwrong ! now that you have a scope, you can ! ;-)))20:54
wpwrak(atx 400 W) greedy beast :)20:54
kristianpaulHey, yes !20:54
kristianpaulbut is not my priority now20:55
wpwrakmy mill is 19 V, 2 A20:55
kristianpaulwith air conditioners you mean ventilador?20:55
wpwrakthe thingies that dry the air, cool it, or heat it. and also move it around, yes.20:55
kristianpaulhmm i'll move it right now it shares main with cnc...20:56
kristianpaulWas a whole 30°C day here today :S20:56
wpwrakthe main risk are power consumption peaks, i.e., when the air conditioner switches itself on. if you have a fan that just runs the whole time, then that's okay.20:57
wpwrakalso, noise on the AC line should get filtered anyway. but of course, if something draws enough current to make the voltage drop, then some devices may get upset20:58
wpwrake.g., if i switch on enough air conditioners, my desktop pc resets from time to time. that is, it did before i added the usp. works like a charm. so the one i had before was just a bad device.20:59
kristianpaulwell, my PC have UPS as well :-)21:02
kristianpauljust CNC and scope and m1 are out of the backup due load capacity21:02
wpwrakif your cnc does very long-running jobs, then an UPS may be useful (as long as the PC controlling it is also supplied)21:03
kristianpaulbtw i now can print continuoslly with my 3d printer !, i just added a Conveyor system, and fixed it so it works better now for ie 7 hrs of printing :-)21:04
kristianpaulAll run from SD so PC is not processing nothing besides the start command21:04
wpwrakthe conveyor ought to be nice :) i'm glad i don't have anything like this. otherwise, i wouldn't rest before i had hatched some crazy project that makes the conveyor work for at least a week non-stop :)21:09
kristianpaulhe, i a week i will run of plastic21:11
wpwrakf(2.95, 3.25) = 3.121:13
wpwrakf(3.45, 3.75) = 3.521:13
wpwrakwhat is f() ?21:13
wpwrak(this is the magic qfn pad to land pattern function nxp use)21:14
wpwrakhmm, the tendency is that the number of different and mutually contradictory design parameters for QFN packages increases linearly with the number of sources consulted.23:06
wpwrakat least i'm now almost entirely convinced that i'll trust only half of adam's rule of thumb :)23:07
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