#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2011-01-19

wpwrakadamw_: heya ! question: for 4x4 mm qfn, is it okay if the center pad is just one square, with one square of solder paste, or should the solder paste be split into smaller portions ?00:19
adamw_wpwrak, this is good question!00:21
wpwraki knew you'd like it ;-))00:22
adamw_either smaller portion or bigger than solder pad, it really depends on datasheet said firstly00:22
adamw_but datasheet always say recommended layout footprint ONLY.00:23
wpwraknaw, data sheet says nothing ;-)00:23
adamw_they are not care more about 'solder paste' or 'solder pad'00:23
wpwrakNXP do :) but they're the only ones, it seems00:23
adamw_but like in avt2 , the cpu die00:24
adamw_some chip manufactuer will very carefully on telling you the size of center 'solder pad', and define if connected to GND plate.00:25
adamw_so I could only tell you a normal spec. from pcb maker00:25
wpwraki'm talking about the AT86RF231 and the C8051F326. for the f326, the land pattern is given. central pad on the package is 3.15 x 3.15 mm, in the land pattern 3.25 x 3.25 mm (typ/median values)00:26
adamw_you could just split into at 5 mil nominal between pad and paste layer.00:26
wpwrakfor the rf231, i only have the package definition: 3.30 x 3.30 mm00:26
adamw_then you won't worry your design one day pcb maker won't produce it.00:26
wpwrakso .. 125 um on each side ?00:27
adamw_just remember the clearance to be at least 5 mils : land pattern > 5 mil > central pad > 5 mil > solder paste.00:29
wpwrakah, okay. thanks !00:30
adamw_so clearance please leave 0.127mm = 0.0254 * 5 mm00:30
adamw_hope this help you.00:31
wpwraki suppose, nobody worries about such things for other components. 0402 and such ? i.e., there, solder paste = pad size ?00:31
adamw_no ...it really depends on what kinds of product. some times always solder pad != pad size...more common!!!00:32
adamw_but if for your design, you could just use Milkymist foortprint for 0402, they are more common.00:33
adamw_that was I asked from pcb maker and smt vendors.00:34
wpwrakoh, really ? hmm. ought to be a global setting then.00:35
adamw_i have had very care about the pad and solder paste on bga pcb design on bluetooth earphone before00:35
adamw_no, a said globe setting, we should always follow IPC specification,00:36
wpwrakah .. what does ipc say about 0402 ? :)00:36
adamw_wait...check for you.00:36
adamw_before you get digging into more precise suggestion on 0402 layout, please check http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_Layout_History00:39
adamw_scrolling down to see last 0402 picture I made stencil size.00:40
adamw_there's a link for http://www.xs4all.nl/~tersted/PDF_files/Plexus/tombstoning.pdf00:40
adamw_you should read this first.00:40
adamw_then you will know why people are caring about 0402 mounting.00:41
wpwrakah, at the very end :)00:42
adamw_then you could determine what the histories for good design on 0603/ 0402, 0805, or others.00:42
adamw_we've never produced over 3k products...you will hard to know the impact of bad 0402 footprint design.00:43
adamw_but I have met 1kk before for producing product....so they are important for MP.00:44
adamw_so I could only say to say with a 5 mil clearance, your board can be produced in all over the world.00:45
adamw_not just follow IPC ..:)00:45
wpwrakfor 0402, my pads are 0.6 x 0.45 mm. (0402-M from kicad-libs/modules/stdpass.fpd)00:48
wpwrakwould you also there make a 5 mil reduction ?00:49
wpwrakthe solder paste would then be about 0.35 x 0.2 mm. seems very small.00:49
adamw_0.6 x 0.45 mm is a central pad? or solder past size?00:50
wpwrakthat's the solder pad for 040200:51
adamw_yes , 0.35 x 0.2 is too small00:52
adamw_please use http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:0603_0402_stencil_aperture_dimension.png  for 0402 solder pad design.00:53
adamw_the recommended pad design I took from VIA for mother board industry.00:53
wpwrakthat's much larger than my pads ;)00:54
adamw_larger than your 0.6 x 0.45 mm00:54
wpwrakmy pad sizes come from the land pattern recommendations by various chip makers00:54
adamw_haha...00:54
wpwrakhmm, i should have the analysis somewhere ...00:55
adamw_so what would you prefer? to let your board all over the world can use or few only?00:55
adamw_yes...analysis is good00:55
adamw_http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipc.org%2F4.0_Knowledge%2F4.1_Standards%2Fsmcwp001.pdf&ei=qno2TfTvFZHSuwOp8-GcBA&usg=AFQjCNFnNiZfoT5U1k2mKHb8coa4ZWgrFg&sig2=Ajhx23eW24Ijca3adbAN9Q00:56
adamw_check out this IPC for solder paste.00:56
adamw_you will get official answer.00:56
wpwrakhttp://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/gta02-core/2009-September/000563.html01:08
wpwrak"My 0402" is a fairly tight version that's difficult to solder manually. since then, i've introduced a version that's 0.1 mm longer and is easily soldered manually, 0402-M01:09
adamw_aha....improvement from experienced life...quite good.01:10
wpwrak;-)01:10
adamw_here layout house have three catagories for 0402 footprint design..01:11
adamw_i should ask them for sharing here....their experienced design was really confirmed by their much high quantities in customer end.01:12
adamw_some times to read more data like IPC is not bad.01:12
wpwrakwell, from manual soldering with an iron. reflow is a bit easier. i should build myself a proper reflow oven once. the toaster i use for this purpose has a hard time melting the solder but is really good at, well, toasting the FR4 (and oxidizing the traces in the process). not exactly how i want things ...01:12
adamw_but too many to learn.01:12
adamw_hmm..I have to run outside now.01:14
wpwrakzrafa: gaah ! wireshark doesn't run. when loading its decoders ("dissectors"), it fails around "cisco" with Unhandled exception (group=1, code=6)02:53
zrafawpwrak: did you try with a bit of swap on SD?04:19
czrJay7, cool. stock OE or something else?05:42
Jay7stock OE05:42
Jay7but as I've said, I've not build any images for nn yet :)05:43
Jay7I'm building for zauruses mostly05:43
Jay7but DISTRO="jlime" and MACHINE="ben-nanonote" should be sufficient :)05:43
wpwrakzrafa: (swap) nope, but there was also nothing in dmesg06:49
wpwrakhmm, also jlime disables overcommit_memory. bad habits everywhere ....06:51
wpwrakindeed, that helps. now at ipv6 ...06:52
wpwrak... ppp ...06:53
wpwrakgetting veeeerryyyy slooooowwww ... i think the ben really needs more memory :)06:56
wpwrakand, eventually, the OOM killer got it. ah well, it's not that i really needed it ...07:15
xMffppp on the nanonote is too heavy?07:15
wpwrakxMff: no, ppp probably isn't, but wireshark is :)07:17
xMffah... heh07:18
wpwrakadded pcap support to one of my wpan tools and wanted to show it off, but ... sneef07:19
xMffmaybe something like ettercap would be better suited?07:22
wpwrakah, nice. doesn't support IEEE 802.15.4, though.07:26
wpwrakwow, not even tcpdump has it (at least not on my ubuntu host). how peculiar.07:26
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: bc, add -l, use the predefined math routines by default http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/216706c07:35
wpwrakjlime's tcpdump is better. heh :) gets very confused by my junk frames, though07:40
wpwrakhmm, if a hypothetical ben successor had DDR SDRAM support (the Jz4720), then it could have 128 MB (32 Mb x 32) at about the same price as the current 32 MB07:46
wpwraks/Jz4720/Jz4720 doesn't/07:46
wpwrakthe memory would also be much faster (4 x the burst rate. of course, setup eats some of this.)07:49
kyakmm, 128 Mb, luxury07:49
lekernelkyak: get yourself a M1 ;)07:50
kyaklekernel: i'll have to google that first :)07:50
kyakwhat's that?07:51
lekernelhttp://www.milkymist.org/mmone.html07:51
kyakah, ok07:51
kyakyeah, i could get it, but it seems like a very specific thingy!07:51
wpwrakkyak: 128 MB seems to be around the "knee" in the price/capacity curve. anything smaller doesn't lower the price much, anything bigger grows proportionally in price or worse07:51
wpwraklekernel: so M1 is the official acronym, not MM1 ?07:52
kyakwpwrak: are you talking about embedded systems? because desktop "knee" is perhaps around 2Gb07:52
wpwrakkyak: in fact, it's the least specific thingy you could imagine ;-))07:52
lekerneldunno, I use both interchangeably. M1 is faster to type and easier to pronounce07:52
wpwrakkyak: embedded, yes. well, i didn't plot the graph. it just feels like that when i compare a few price points.07:53
kyakwpwrak: specific thingy.. i'm not sure, because i can actually buy a desktop PC for that much money MM1 costs07:54
kyakit's around 850 Euro, if i'm not mistaken07:54
lekernelyou are mistaken07:54
kyakoh!07:55
wpwrakkyak: btw, be careful with GB vs. Gb. the capacity of memory chips is usually specified in mega- or giga-bits, Mb or Gb. so you get 1 Gb (32 M x 32), which means that it has 1 gigabits with the bus interface organized as 32 M words of 32 bits each.07:56
kyakits 380.0¬07:56
kyaki'm sorry :)07:56
kyakstill, i bought 1.5 years ago Shuttle K45SE and it costs less than that07:57
kyakand it's muuuuch faster07:57
kyakthat's why, MM1 is very specific07:57
lekernelit's much faster?07:58
lekerneluhm07:58
wpwraklekernel: ... compiling linux kernels ;-)07:58
lekernelthe fpga on MM1, when properly programmed, beats any CPU core, even the high end ones07:58
kyakit is, 2Gb DDR, E6500  @ 2.93GHz Pentium etc07:59
wpwraklekernel: any core at any task ?07:59
kyaklekernel: yes, fpga, so very specific :)07:59
wpwrakkyak: mind your capitalization ! :)07:59
lekerneloh, well for texture mapping for example, it's certainly faster than that CPU core08:00
kyakwpwrak: so tired of hittin ctrl+a with my left hand all day, lazy to hit Shift :)08:00
lekerneleven the current design08:00
kyaki would like to have some many-purpose device08:01
lekernelI wonder how you can argue that FPGAs are "very specific" :)08:02
kyakand i think that MM1 is very limited-purpose.. like you said, it "can be programmed"08:02
kyakbut can it be programmed to do all tasks faster than regular PC?08:03
wejpare you seriously comparing a FPGA with a general purpose cpu? if you really want to do that, you have to implement a similar cpu on the fpga and compare that to the cpu08:03
wpwraklekernel: btw, in terms of marketing, i have some doubts about the attribute "interactive". as i understand things, that's basically the key feature as far as a VJ is concerned. but i wonder if "interactive" is strong enough. after all, if it was just some macbook application where you have can manipulate the colors a little while the loop is running, that would be "interactive", too.08:04
lekernelgoing the "implement a similar CPU" way for this purpose is stupid and will definitely yield poor performance results08:04
wejpof course it will, but comparin g an fpga with a general purpose cpu is at least as stupid as that08:04
lekernelusing partial reconfiguration and novel hardware synthesis approaches is very likely to be a lot more interesting and will work if you do it right08:05
lekernelbut it's a hard thing to do, and there are intermediate approaches like manually implementing dedicated acceleration cores, like milkymist does08:05
wpwrakwejp: you may want to consider that many fathers think their kid is the best and most beautiful :-)08:06
kyakwejp: in fact, you can compare them from the users' point of view. "What can i do with that, and how fast?"08:06
wejpwpwrak: yeah, right ;)08:06
lekernelit's an interesting research subject, really08:06
wejpi'm not saying FPGAs aren't worth using them, but they are totally different form a cpu, so comparing them isn't all that useful08:07
wpwraklekernel: (partial reconfiguration) oh yes. that's what i'm looking for08:07
lekerneloh, on the contrary it _is_ useful :)08:07
wejpoh yeah?08:07
lekernelbut you need a way more complex metric than GHz08:07
lekernelyeah, a silicon compiler that runs Python or Ruby extremely fast using PR on FPGA would be a wonderful thing08:08
wpwraki'd settle for C :)08:08
wejpthere is no such metric. you can compare sepecific tasks and how an implementation on a fpga compares to one on a specific cpu, but that's not comparing fpga and cpu but rather comparing different implementations of a specific problem08:08
rohwejp: its the question if one wants a synthetic or an real world comparison08:09
rohsynthetic ones are just generating not much saying marketing numbers.08:09
wejpi consider synthetic comparisons to be rather useless08:10
lekernelwpwrak: C would be a horrible language for this purpose08:12
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the qi-hardware sources mirror address http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/bf27ef708:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: bash-files: update the package url http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/e3999a908:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add 127.0.0.1 BenNanoNote to hosts file http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/14981ac08:13
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: fix DNS timeout problem when applications resolve the FQDN http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/529933508:13
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: undo hosts file fix.  Xiangfu was quicker and did it better :) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/a7c8d1f08:13
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: Adapt config.full_system to new emacs package name.  Add emacs japanese http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5337fe808:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update package to known-good revisions, thanks David Kuehling http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/c6eda5808:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.all_packages: remove mp3, mp4, rootfs, u-boot http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/698f0ec08:13
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: Add gfortran compiler support to the toolchain http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/57daa0508:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: configu.full_system: remove IB and Toolchain http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1ea482b08:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: using 'strip' instead of 'sstrip' http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/672539f08:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system, add math stuff and some new pakcages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/0a3ed8908:13
qi-bot[commit] kyak: put qi openwrt-packages git on top in feed.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/c137e6a08:13
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: use ccache also for C++ compilation http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1ce0cb708:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: enable the toolchain option for Octave and libgfortran http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/536fd9508:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system-add-more-php5-modules.patch http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6e2a0c108:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add package sqlite2-cli http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/787275608:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: feeds.conf add @revision to feeds.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/da282ed08:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: INSTALL_FGORTRAN needs those two options http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/52c8c7308:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add recently new packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/07b9ae108:13
wpwraklekernel: how's that ?08:13
lekernelwith all its pointers, side effects and ad hoc code everywhere e.g. for memory allocation, string handling, error reporting, etc.08:13
wolfsprauloops, some merge I think :-)08:13
wpwraklekernel: or is this just your way of saying that you don't like C ? :)08:13
lekerneland it's not even productive to write such code, compared to high level languages08:13
lekernelC is fine when you need fast code on a RISC CPU08:14
lekernelperiod08:14
wpwrakseems that xiangfu's boss has returned ;-)08:14
Action: xiangfu rebase 'master' on upstream 'backfire', last upstream backfire commit date: [Mon Jan 17 02:15:27 2011]08:15
wpwraklekernel: i'd convert C to a more regular form, i.e., SSA, and then extract patterns from that. the fact that you have C on top doesn't really matter at that point, but you get "lean" operations without gazillions of dependencies and side-effects08:17
wpwraklekernel: i wouldn't be surprised if there was also research on alternative but similarly regular formats than SSA. after all, SSA is pretty old already and the work on obtaining efficient algorithms for the basic transforms seems to be more or less done. (haven't been following developments in the field for the last years, though)08:19
lekernelSSA has nothing to do with problems posed by unrestricted usage of pointers and ad hoc code for every basic operation08:20
lekernelC has the traditional CPU architecture built into its fundamental design08:22
lekerneland you want to move away from this traditional architecture08:23
kyakxiangfu: please help me resolve this "Pull is not possible because you have unmerged files." after git pull -\08:25
xiangfukyak: do you have un-commit modify ?08:27
kyakxiangfu: there is one, and several untracked files08:28
xiangfukyak: I think it's will goto an temp branch. what is the output of "git branch"08:31
kyakon master08:31
kyaki think i understood you.. git branch temp; git checkout master?08:32
xiangfukyak: no.08:32
xiangfukyak:  when do rebase the git will goto a temp branch first. so I guess if the git pull, will also goto a temp branch first.08:33
xiangfukyak: can you wait me some minutes. I found there some file should not commit, let me delete them first.08:34
kyaknot sure.. it could do it in one step08:34
kyaksure08:34
kyaki think i have problems mostly because i'm working on master branch.. maybe it's better to branch always, as explained in git tutorials08:35
kyakthen i can always update master, and then move my updates there08:36
xiangfuwhen you do git pull , you can run "git stash" backup you un-commit first.08:37
kyakgit: you'll never know when it kicks you :)08:37
xiangfuthen after pull, run "git stash pop"08:37
kyakyeah, i do it sometimes, when i have conflicts08:37
kyakbut in this case, dozens of "added" files appeared for soem reason08:39
xiangfukyak: too bad, there are some temp files commit. I need sometime cleanup it.09:01
wolfspraulkyak: for m1, I think we should not get stuck in fpga vs. asic thinking09:03
wolfspraulI hope we are able to establish milkymist for the long run, and build greats products with it09:03
wolfspraulthen we have to dramatically lower the barrier of entry to use fpgas in free software - we leave the path to asic open whenever that makes sense anyway09:03
wolfspraulwhat I like about m1 is that it is a product, so we can skip all the theory talk and focus right away on making something that works, same as with the Ben09:04
wolfspraulit is not the fpga's fault that software tools to utilize its power have been developing so slowly, in free software it's even worse09:05
wolfspraulthe tools are so bad, I think I can compare it to a normal let's say Intel CPU, and then all apps are run in Python. No C compiler all, let's say the C compiler for some reason only works for the kernel and the Python interpreter.09:07
wolfspraulthen people run all their apps in Python, weather forecase, databases, everything.09:07
wolfspraulthat would certainly grind down even the latest and greatest stuff, and it's what I think is being done to FPGAs currently09:08
wolfspraulI agree we need to get the price of m1 down, but first we need to make it a full product/package, then start to bring the price down. It will take some time...09:09
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the qi-hardware sources mirror address http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/efd937309:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: bash-files: update the package url http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b4d753709:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add 127.0.0.1 BenNanoNote to hosts file http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/aaaef1809:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: fix DNS timeout problem when applications resolve the FQDN http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/2a870e509:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: undo hosts file fix.  Xiangfu was quicker and did it better :) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/38a542109:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: Adapt config.full_system to new emacs package name.  Add emacs japanese http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d0e037209:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update package to known-good revisions, thanks David Kuehling http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ef77ca609:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.all_packages: remove mp3, mp4, rootfs, u-boot http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5bbdc6609:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: Add gfortran compiler support to the toolchain http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/fae2ee809:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: configu.full_system: remove IB and Toolchain http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/94ddef209:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: using 'strip' instead of 'sstrip' http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/708d90109:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system, add math stuff and some new pakcages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b0ccf2b09:20
qi-bot[commit] kyak: put qi openwrt-packages git on top in feed.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/60dec5b09:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: use ccache also for C++ compilation http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/a63d39d09:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: enable the toolchain option for Octave and libgfortran http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/8e334fb09:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system-add-more-php5-modules.patch http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/752f82009:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add package sqlite2-cli http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ebf59b709:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: feeds.conf add @revision to feeds.conf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b458f2909:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: INSTALL_FGORTRAN needs those two options http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/351a2b509:20
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add recently new packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/3adb62d09:20
rohwolfspraul: i would not wonder if the mm1 also sells well as a develboard09:33
rohwolfspraul: i compared some prices and actually all develboards seem to be more expensive (and have less interfaces) when they use the same, similar or bigger fpga. the only ones (fpga develboards) priced below 350us$ are the ones with spartan3 or really small spartan6 or similar sized chips09:34
kyakwolfspraul: ok, let's think about MM1 as "FPGA computer". What i can do with it? It is positioned as a VJ station, and i don't really understand how i make use of it...09:38
wolfspraulhard to answer for me because I haven't use it much yet myself09:41
wolfspraulI like to work late at night, and I like to listen to music while working.09:41
wolfspraulso that's a starting point :-)09:41
wolfspraulonce I have my own m1, I will definitely let it project something - what I don't know yet09:41
kyaki think roh is right, it will be used as a dev board mainly09:42
wolfspraulit shouldn't be too distractive because I'm still working...09:42
wolfspraulI believe in software as the enabler.09:42
wolfspraulsoftware has to get easier and easier - once that's the case people will drive it into more use cases09:42
wolfspraulas a 'dev board', well let's see I don't know09:42
wolfspraulI doubt I can understand the motivation of someone buying a 'dev board' per se. Need to know what comes next.09:43
wolfspraulI think a lot of people who buy a dev board buy it out of an almost automatic habit.09:44
wolfspraulfor example I've heard this several times:09:44
wolfspraulcompany decides to use chip X for a new project, company buys one (or multiple, depending on team members) 'official' devboards for that chip09:45
wolfspraulthey totally don't care about the actual features of the devboard, it's just a habit, a way of running a project09:45
wolfspraulin that case there is no chance to replace that devboard with an m109:45
wpwrakit gives them a baseline. basically completes the documentation :)09:46
LunaVoraxHi everyone !09:46
wolfspraulyeah09:46
LunaVoraxI have a technical question09:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: and often not used at all in the end.09:46
LunaVoraxDoes an emulator of the CPU used in the Ben Nanonote do exist ?09:46
wolfspraulalso many projects get canceled, but by that time the devboards were already sold...09:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah. it's kinda like insurance :)09:46
wolfspraulLunaVorax: I think qemu works to a degree, but I don't know details maybe others do...09:48
LunaVoraxOk wolfspraul09:48
LunaVoraxIt's MIPS architecture right ?09:48
wolfspraulkyak: it is too early to come up with really convincing use cases.09:48
wolfspraulthe VJ is one09:48
wolfspraulI am _sure_ we will come up with others, but it depends on us, how we get software to run on it, software as the enabler of use cases...09:49
wolfspraulthen those use cases need to be marketed too09:49
wolfspraulkyak: have you seen this? http://visikord.com/09:49
wolfspraulit's something that m1 probably could do relatively easily09:49
wolfspraula nice usecase I think09:50
kyaknot seen09:50
wolfspraulbundle m1 with camera and projector, and you have a nice dance augmentation system...09:50
kyaksounds cool.. only i 'm not a dancing type :)09:50
wolfspraulthis is also guess-land, but I guess it would be easy to implement real-time video & audio compression, say into Ogg Theora, and then stream it over Ethernet09:51
wolfspraulmaybe you can do this with other computers too, but you do need some 'computer' to do it, why not an M1 box...09:52
wolfsprauldmx and midi offer interesting and unique use case opportunities too, need to see which are the low hanging fruits there in terms of getting software ready09:52
wolfspraulroh had the idea to hack the video-in signals to what? a 3-channel scope?09:53
wolfspraulforgot09:53
xiangfukyak: hi seems now, everything is ok. remove duplicate merge commit.09:54
xiangfukyak: do you lose anything?09:54
zrafawolfspraul: do you know if m1 would have the same customs tratamiento than nn?.. I mean, if I would buy one I would like to know if it would be the same from a custom point of view (I know that I should know better than you perhaps, after all, I live here :P .. but maybe you already know some m1 features customs would like to use for disturbing buyers)09:57
zrafawolfspraul: tratamiento=treatment :P09:58
wpwrakzrafa: the power supply09:58
rohm1 coult be more complicated depending on where09:58
rohe.g. the us seems to think: 'powerfull fpga == weapons grade technology' ;)09:59
zrafawpwrak: ah :( .. but we could ask to remove that from package before shipping right?09:59
wpwrakzrafa: that is, unless wolfgang got the http://imagenes.acambiode.com/empresas/5/5/1/3/55135020082167565066496756554557/productos/Etiqueta Marca S.gif10:00
wpwrakzrafa: yup. that's how i solve this sort of issue. did it twice already successfully. (not sure if they would have caught the power supply if it had been there, though.)10:01
zrafaroh: (weapons technology).. ah.. that will not happen here I guess (Arg). They will think "what is fpga?"10:01
zrafaroh: well if they look in google, maybe find the us customs thinking "it is weapons grade technology" :P10:01
rohzrafa: i am in germany and had customs hassle with getting a beagleboard from the us10:03
wpwraki don't think weapons are a problem at the moment. right now. drugs are the thing they have to watch out for. at least until the latest scandal (about a ton of cocaine airlifted from argentina to spain) has calmed down a little :)10:04
rohin the end i gave digikey the finger and used different hw10:04
xiangfukyak: if you don't lose anything, we can do 1. git fetch -a  2. git reset --hard origin/master, for force local master sync with server10:04
rohif i can avoid it i dont buy anything from the us. its just pain. the rest of the planet is easy compared to that.10:04
zrafaroh: ah, I see.10:05
rohwpwrak: the tunesian ex-first lady supposedly airlifted about 1.5tons in gold out of the county while fleeing ;)10:05
zrafawpwrak: yeah.. and all for that tiny cocaine package for personal use10:06
rohhrhr10:07
wolfspraulzrafa: we can ship it without the power adapter10:07
wolfspraulthen we can ship the power adapter separately, see whether it passes, or you get the power adapter locally10:07
wolfspraulyou are still in Argentina, right?10:07
wpwrakroh: yeah. private cargo flights seem to be popular these days ;-)10:07
zrafawolfspraul: yep, Argentina10:08
zrafawolfspraul: and the power adaptar should be easy to get here I guess10:08
rohsometimes i wonder if there should be a wiki documenting such oddnesses10:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: I have never seen that logo anywhere (watching for it now), but it's mostly a printing problem :-)10:08
LunaVoraxWasn't there a Nanonote2 wishlist or something, I though I saw one some weekd ago10:08
rohlike 'open logistics and sales'-wiki10:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: :-) some of the big names have it. ibm, asus, fujitsu, etc.10:10
wpwrakLunaVorax: i wonder if the "nanonote2" (officially "ya") is really still on the roadmap. it's been a long time since i heard about any plans for that.10:12
rohwpwrak: i think thats a more difficult question.10:13
LunaVoraxToo bad if it has disapeared, the nanonote lacks some important features (like video out and usb host)10:13
rohthere is the want. the could... the experiences and then the opportunies10:13
rohthe last being a combination of money and avail materials (chips which one can buy not only talk about (etc))10:14
rohLunaVorax: video out? whatfor?10:15
LunaVoraxwell vga out to plug on a bigger screen :o10:15
rohm-)10:15
LunaVoraxI was working for a mod to turn the nanonote into the board of an arcade cabinet10:15
rohwill not happen. waste of money (and mechanically unfeasible)10:15
LunaVoraxBut the lack of video out stopped me10:15
LunaVoraxLike, real quick10:15
wpwrakroh: yeah, basically no growth in development resources, and i suppose neither in finances10:16
rohi built a mame-o-mat (arcade machine mechanics with a pc inside) once.. running linux and mame and hundreds of games10:16
LunaVoraxYeah roh my idea is a bit more complex10:17
LunaVoraxMaybe not the right place to talk about it10:17
rohreal badass-hack. running the mame on fbdev, having some  menu infront and shell hacks around that. using a second keyboard pcb connected to the mechanical buttons10:17
LunaVoraxBut if I had the knowledge for it I would have took the nanonote's schematics and modifieds them just to add/remove the features I wanted10:18
wpwrakLunaVorax: now here's your chance to learn :)10:18
rohthe point is: the nanonote is a low end multimedia computer (low end because its <1ghz cpu, no hw-accel gpu etc)10:19
LunaVoraxI think it's starting way too high for a beginning wpwrak :P10:19
rohbut thats ok. anything high end would suck the batteries dry asap10:19
LunaVoraxroh, not a problem10:19
wpwrakLunaVorax: for video out, there are chips that can do basic vga out. e.g., the propeller. you would be extremely limited in what you can display, but if you connected it to the ben, you could, say, have a text screen with relative ease.10:19
LunaVoraxwpwrak, I was thinking about graphics actually10:20
LunaVoraxI guess that's a different story then10:20
wpwrakLunaVorax: make small steps. build the ben-blinkenlights board. then add an mcu that blinks on its own. then make it talk to the ben. and so on.10:20
LunaVoraxI should make tinyer steps wpwrak since I understood 50% of your sentence10:21
LunaVorax:D10:21
LunaVoraxBut I'm much into learning programming for now10:21
LunaVoraxAnd messing around with my arduino stuffs10:21
LunaVoraxMore advanced electronics may (or not) happend later10:22
wpwrakLunaVorax: ben-blinkenlights is a rather simple board: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/blinken/blinken-100831.jpg10:22
LunaVoraxOh right,10:23
LunaVoraxOh !10:23
wpwrakLunaVorax: ah, arduino. that's already waaaay more advanced !10:23
LunaVoraxSo that was that strange picture on the wiki10:23
wpwrak;-))10:23
LunaVoraxarduino is advanced ?10:23
wpwrakLunaVorax: you can do a lot with it. of course, it has its limits, but you're not starting from zero10:24
LunaVoraxYeah10:24
LunaVoraxwpwrak, what is the purpose of this ben-blinkenlights anyway ? To command them using the Ben Nanonote ?10:26
LunaVoraxI think I anwered my own question10:26
LunaVoraxanswered*10:26
wpwrakyes. the real purpose was to put the 8:10 card slot to use. proof of concept that we can indeed drive something there.10:27
wpwrakthis project then spawned a few more advanced designs: a passive cable/board combo to program the c8051f32x family of microcontrollers and then the atben board of ben-wpan10:28
LunaVoraxHum ok, pretty unexpected for me10:30
wpwrakillustrates the process of small steps: first do something trivial to make sure the basics (signals, software, mechanical) are okay. then build more ambitions things on it. well, ben-wpan is admittedly a fairly huge leap, because this also adds the whole complexity of RF.10:30
rohwpwrak: btw: atmel solves the 8051-misery finally10:31
rohatmega8U2 32U2 16U2 series is also in the 2.0-2.30US$ region like the c8051f32x10:32
rohand it also got real usb, dfu etc10:32
wpwrakroh: usb sans crystal ?10:33
rohdunno. i think yes. it has an internal 8mhz rc which it also can use to generate the 48mhz via usbpll10:34
rohmy point is mostly not details, but the part that the reactions i get from embedded hackers when it comes to 8bit cpus and 8051 (from my pov understandable) are different but all in the region of *run10:35
roh*10:35
wpwrakroh: http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc7799.pdf section 20.2, page 185 says you still need a crystal10:36
roh *eeek* *yikes* .. stuff like that. avr most of them like.. pic most of them also despise now10:36
wpwrakroh: well, sdcc isn't the nicest compiler, that's true. but 8051 isn't *that* horrible.10:36
rohtrue. still its a deadend nobody wants to even be near. (the arch)10:37
rohcisc. ugly to read. complicated to do simple stuff10:37
wpwrakyeah, everybody uses it. the obvious hallmark of a deadend ;-)))10:38
rohbad clockcycles vs getting stuff done ratio10:38
wpwraknice single-bit i/o operations10:38
rohso what. every serious mcu has that10:38
roheven the z80 clones10:38
wpwrakperipherals suck a bit, though. but i'm not sure how much of this is the 8051's fault.10:38
wpwraksingle-bit i/o ? no, not really10:39
rohstill pain nobody wants to see again. (peripherals from that time)10:39
rohmost had theses mcs51 learning computer experiences in school.10:40
wpwrakwell, the 8051 arch doesn't bother me so much. the sdcc compiler bugs are a bit of a nuisance, though. but also that got better.10:41
rohsingle bit iolike sbi cbi? or what do you mean?10:41
wpwraki don't know the assembler. but that sounds about right, yes10:41
wpwrakset/clear bit10:41
rohwpwrak: i think you can understand why people avoid such cpus after having worked with avr and similar post 1980 archs10:41
rohbtw: sbi and cbi are actually used by gcc in avr in some situations. means the gcc already does quite some cool optimisations10:42
wpwraki've worked with z80, 6502, 8086, ia32, pic, m8c, avr, arm, had some peeks at sparc, mips, vax, and propeller, and i don't find the 8051 overly repulsive10:44
wpwrakmaybe some people are just sissies ;-)10:44
rohabout the crystal.. whats the issue there?10:44
wpwrakspace, cost, yield10:44
roheven for a serial one needs one to have not shitty baudrates10:44
wpwrakthe usb host gives you an accurate clock. use it :)10:45
rohonly as long as its plugged. its usb. it doesnt mean permanent connection10:45
wpwrakoften enough, it does. but yes, if you unplug, the scenario changes.10:46
rohif your device gets bus powered only thats correct. still you need some special purpose pll for that inside the chip10:46
wpwraksure. but the problem has been solved. that is, unless you insist on avr. then you still have to wait until atmel figure it out, too ;)10:47
rohi dunno how that works in detail.. even every usb hub i know has a crystal. and every serial2usb also10:47
wpwrak(ftdi have also caught up at long last. of course, their is the evil kingdom of secrecy, with the predicable result on the quality of free software support.)10:48
rohwpwrak: my point mostly is: with 8051 you are riding a dead horse and nobody wants to hop on and help out/send patches develop extensions, reuse code etc. thats what opensource is all about. (community of developers)10:48
rohwith avr you are sitting in a melting pot of people who are motivated to do stuff. or abuse your hw with different fw to stuff we never thought about10:48
wpwraknonsense. lots of people are developing on 8051. also open stuff. it just seems that the communities don't mix much.10:49
rohmeans more hw sales, more developers, more rapid growth in community and sales10:49
rohwpwrak: i know lots of hackers and they all stay clear of platforms like that. sure, if neccessary one hacks and disassembles everything. but if one can avoid it...  its not a likely choise for stuff you are not paid to do10:50
wpwrakgive me an avr that is as nicely integrated as the c8051f32x series and comparable cost and i'll switch in a heartbeat. that is, usb without crystal, built-in ldo, reasonable amount of flash, the basic peripherals.10:51
rohi think the ldo are in there10:52
roh8-32k flash. 512-1k ram and eeprom each10:52
wpwrakfor me the main weakness of the c8051f32x is that they're not good with battery power (well, without external stuff)10:52
rohall the avr peripheral niceties10:52
rohand the low-power stuff gets quite well with avr now too.. not as crazy as the msp430 stuff or specialised pics i think10:53
wpwrakroh: (avr and ldo) only for 5V i/o. otherwise you need an external supply.10:54
wpwraknaw, the avr core is nice, but a lot of the rest of their technology is deeply last millennium10:55
rohwpwrak: sure? (ldo) .. it looked like it does its own 3.3 from the usb 5v10:55
wpwrakfigure 20-6, page 18810:56
wpwrakoh, wait10:56
rohthats just one option when bypassing the internal 3.3v ldi10:56
roheh ldo10:56
wpwraknaw, got that wrong. you're right. they can do it. figure 20-410:56
rohthats like special for the new usb variants10:57
rohthese U2 variants seem to be the successor of the at90usbxxxx stuff10:57
wpwrakyeah, with usb, you kinda need it :)10:57
wpwraknow they just need to get rid of the crystal :)10:57
rohwpwrak: use a ceramic resonator10:58
rohworks as well10:58
rohcheap also10:58
wpwrak(resonators) you can choose between accurate or cheap ;-)11:04
wpwrakatmel specify 0.25% tolerance for usb use. a resonator that does that costs about as much as a crystal.11:05
rohwpwrak: the spec derives from the usb requirements i guess. even serial needs <3% real world to work11:07
wpwrak(spec) probably, yes.11:08
rohusb is picky11:09
wpwrakyeah, in many ways :)11:09
wpwrakzrafa: you should post it here ;-)15:37
zrafahaha :)15:38
zrafatip for nn when something is doing problems : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fow7iUaKrq415:38
wpwrakzrafa: "I was coding shit in MIPS while you were playing Space Invaders." (-:C15:38
zrafawpwrak: ;-))15:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lib/Makefile.common: changed "clean:" to "clean::" to allow for additions http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/ab915dd15:55
wpwraklet's see how the electricity is doing ... had to shut down the "old" branch again, because the differential circuit breaker tripped15:59
wpwrakoops, wrong channel16:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrx: cleaned up the usage output http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/540718016:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrx: added ability to record received frames in pcap format http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f9aee5416:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrx: added BER test pattern transmit mode http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/999ce5316:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrx: define the pcap file magic number (0xa1b2c3d4) in pcap.h http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ea81e7016:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atrf-txrx: renamed BER (bit error rate) test to PER (packet ...) test http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/96e8fc616:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: misctxrx.c (wait_for_interrupt): let "ignore" control printing more tightly http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1fb05c216:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/perdump: new utility to analyze a PER dump http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/600275916:39
wpwrakgrmbl. no useful transmission bathroom -> office17:30
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: perdump: print relative receive timestamp http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6282c3317:38
wolfspraulwpwrak: sorry I was too sleepy last night to reply to LunaVorax and Ya...21:46
wolfspraulflew back to China overnight...21:46
wolfspraulI think Ya is very much on the table/roadmap, why not?21:47
wolfspraulI am as 100% committed to Qi as ever, and I often 'reboot' my mind thinking what I would do if I would start from zero today.21:47
wolfspraulbut so far the conclusion is always to continue exactly where we are now :-)21:47
wolfspraulthere is no point in blindly building (buying) more powerful hardware21:47
wolfspraulwe threw some money at the Ben to get the ball rolling, but now it's about converting the momentum to true copyleft, or free software driven momentum21:48
wolfspraulas soon as we have a package that we believe we can build into a Ya NanoNote that would sell really well, we'll do it, why not?21:48
wolfsprauland the pieces for that package are coming together one by one21:49
wolfspraulI doubt that we will start selling Ya NanoNote in 2011 however.21:49
wolfspraulbut let's see...21:49
wolfspraulI'm not very motivated about the 4760 right now, that's a bit of an on-and-off love.21:51
wolfspraulfor Ya NanoNote, we must do something that will be enthousiastically welcome by our current Ben customers.21:53
kristianpaul(I'm not very motivated about the 4760 right now), wow when i met you that love was no so off :-), well at that time wasnt even M1 board yet21:58
kristianpaulcopyleft hardware for touch based screens is not bad idea22:07
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes, at some point we need to look at capacitive touch, I agree22:26
wolfspraulone by one though :-)22:27
wolfspraulfor touch, I think we should skip resistive, even if we get it to work well it will be discredited as 'old/outdated' by the larger audience22:27
wolfsprauland if we look at capacitive, we should not attempt to make our own controller, for a number of reasons it's too hard22:27
wolfspraulso then it basically comes down to sourcing the whole screen including multi-touch capable controller, and talking to it just with UART or so22:28
wolfspraulwhich is actually easy, but unfortunately not very copyleft.22:28
wolfsprauljust my present thinking on this subject, I (hopefully) keep learning...22:28
wolfspraulkristianpaul: [4760] depends on Ingenic really22:29
wolfspraulI never understood my work as writing free drivers to help others sell proprietary technology.22:29
wolfspraulwe made the first step to get the NanoNote to work, and will continue to improve software for the Ben.22:30
wolfspraulwhether we continue with 4760 or switch to a Milkymist-based solution right away is Ingenic's choice22:30
wolfspraulanyway that's what I will do :-)22:30
wolfspraulbtw, xiangfu is working quite hard to get 100% of Ben NanoNote support into u-boot upstream22:31
wolfspraulthe Linux kernel is far more important, but u-boot also needs to get out of the way (= all into upstream)22:31
wolfspraulkristianpaul: how is your m1 and scope doing? :-)22:31
wolfspraulhey I just noticed rjeffries was on this channel! cool!22:46
kristianpaul(one by one though) agree22:52
wolfspraulrjeffries: is it the Real Ron?22:53
kristianpaul(Ingenic) you mean you tried call Ingenic atention basically with all the work around nannote, but they just ignored it?..22:53
wolfspraulno not ignore, not at all.22:53
kristianpaulAt least try to show other ways of work?22:53
wolfspraulbut the question is - is it a fair give and take? for me it connects to whether we can make copyleft hardware sustainable or not22:54
wolfspraulif our work is free work to help others sell proprietary hardware, then it's absolutely unsustainable and will fail22:54
kristianpaul(right away is Ingenic's choice) yeah sure is too early, both worlds are needed22:54
kristianpaulSo if 4760 is not the way, some other chip eventually will.. i guess22:55
wolfspraulif Ingenic wants to build great hardware that works well with free software, and help us with documentation, learn about how to be efficient about upstream, etc. then I can continue with them.22:55
kristianpaulAnd what they tought about that?22:55
wolfspraul4760 is on the table, I was just saying that I don't PUSH right now towards a 4760-based Ya22:55
kristianpaulsure22:55
wolfspraulI'm not fixing Ingenic's internal problems (as I see them) for free. not interested.22:56
wolfspraulfor example they suffer from some internal wishful thinking culture, i.e. the tech people just say "this or that works", when it actually doesn't.22:56
wolfsprauland the executive people don't take the time to proove them wrong.22:57
wolfspraulwell then22:57
wolfspraulanother big problem is that they have this idea of a 'unified' driver set across OS'es22:57
kristianpaulIs not that what happen mostly everywhere? ;-)22:57
wolfspraulso they acknowledge that they are failing to upstream things, but instead of fixing that in a way that I believe is good, they fix it by going in exactly the opposite direction.22:57
wolfspraulso they introduce 'Ingenic layers' to make it easier to hop from one Linux kernel to another, or even across other kernels like proprietary real-time kernels.22:58
wolfspraulnaturally that will totally break-down at some point, but as long as they can pay the bills, who cares :-)22:58
kristianpaul:-)22:58
wolfspraulyou expect me to continue to clean this up? for free? for how long?22:58
wolfspraulI should rally unpaid free software developers to fix what XX Ingenic employees do wrong?22:59
wolfsprauland then Ingenic grows to 2*XX employees, so we got to work twice as hard to fix it?22:59
wolfspraulthen they go to 3*xx people?22:59
wolfsprauland so on22:59
wolfspraulno way22:59
wolfspraul:-)22:59
kristianpaulWell the product is out there (nanonote)22:59
wolfspraulyes, and it develops nicely.22:59
wolfspraulkristianpaul: how is your m1 and scope doing?23:00
kristianpaulscope i did some other self calibration, now i need more time to inject some simulated signals23:00
kristianpaulM1 as i said before was already flashed from scratch (i erased whole flash)23:01
kristianpaulNow, i'm reading about rtems, to get some similiar working env to the one i had on SIE so i can migrate smoothly23:02
kristianpaulMy idea so far i get some nfs/ftp mount point, and a working tty by the jtag-serial cable23:03
kristianpaulAs i had some basic experience with my avnet board and the MM SoC that is the last part i'll look at, now RTEMS is my home work23:04
wolfspraulnice, sounds good23:04
kristianpaulIn theory dint look so hard to program (rtems), i'm just ready to posibly find some bugs on ethernet part as sebastien warned. so lets see what came up :-)23:05
kristianpaulah i also tested and wired the Scope to my home network, wich works and is helfull to export data from screen23:06
kristianpaulIn the other side about gps-sdr i'm working with a guy called Fabrizio Tapper, wich is suporting me on the sofware part for initial analisys of already dumped data from sige board23:07
kristianpaulI insisted him to join irc, but i guess is busy, but he is very kind and is helping me a lot with some doubds and also code23:08
kristianpauls/doubds/douts23:08
kristianpauldoubts*23:08
Action: kristianpaul argg englush complicated words :p23:09
kristianpaulSo thats the all for now23:09
kristianpaulbtw i dint noticed bibrations from the scope yet..23:11
kristianpaulwell, i'm off for now23:12
kristianpaulwolfspraul: i'll try to send a gps-sdr update to mail-list follwing wpwrak wpan news :-)23:13
wolfspraulyeah23:13
wolfspraulWerner's mail was so heavy that I'm still digesting :-)23:13
wolfspraulbut it's all good stuff of course23:13
wolfspraulonly nobody is able to give any meaningful reaction, he he23:14
kristianpaulI hope find more people intereted in analize data from scope wich is on download.qi-hw.com btw !23:14
wolfspraulgood idea!23:14
kristianpaulinterested*23:14
wolfspraulyou should not find those vibrations23:14
wolfspraulhopefully23:14
kristianpaulahh ;-)23:14
kristianpaulwell mine will not be so heavy i hope :-)23:14
wolfspraulI am very very careful if I sell something, or ask someone to pay part of the costs, that really only good stuff goes out.23:14
wolfspraulit's like 'full disclosure'23:15
wolfspraulso with the scope, one day you may notice, but then there should be a workaround (just turn off and back on)23:15
wolfspraullet's see23:15
--- Thu Jan 20 201100:00

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