#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2011-01-17

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: INSTALL_FGORTRAN needs those two options http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9ddfc5901:05
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: pmars: fix compile error, remove static CC ... in Makefile http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3259de001:32
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: mandoc, remove BROKEN, compile just fine http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/deb6c2e01:32
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: robots: remove BROKEN, install to /usr/bin/ http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/57b658a01:32
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: bwbasic, fix compile error, remove BROKEN http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1a1d25d01:32
wpwrakback ...01:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: cutting wood ... well, for simple things, i just write a script that generates a set of coordinates in gnuplot format01:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: then i pass that through my coordinate transform scripts to mill01:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: that's some ten or so uses so far. before, i also generated RML-1 toolpaths directly, but that's not really convenient.01:42
wpwrakkristianpaul: once, i used HeeksCAD with scripting (for the counterweight)01:43
wpwrakkristianpaul: for PCBs, I can now generate toolpaths for drilling and milling directly from kiCad's gerbers.01:45
wpwrakkristianpaul: so the process is not just to decide how to fit the pieces on the raw board, to enter the respective transforms in my mkmk script, to check the coordinates with gnuplot (make plot), and then go to the mill01:46
wolfspraulkyak: he, I ran into the libiconv problem too now. linking libSDL.so, I get undefined reference to libiconv_open/close07:37
wolfspraulso I need to change the dependency of libSDL from iconv to iconv-full?07:38
wolfspraulactually the earlier error is libiconv.so.2 not found...07:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: considering http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-use.jpg08:11
wpwrakand http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-pogo.jpg08:11
wpwrakhow long would adam scream if i sent him this as the means of flashing the microcontroller in atusb ? :)08:11
wpwrak(the setup picture doesn't include the finger pressing the pogo pins firmly onto the pads)08:12
wolfspraulxiangfu: hey there! I ran into a bug compiling SDL_image08:13
wolfspraulit complains about libiconv_open/close08:13
xiangfuI meet that too.08:13
wolfspraulhow do I make SDL_image use libiconv-full instead of libiconv?08:13
wolfspraulwpwrak: nice picture! the Qi cloth is useful for something :-)08:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: oh, i love it. makes the perfect background :)08:15
wolfspraulI don't understand the -pogo pictuer08:15
wolfspraulpicture08:15
wpwrakperhaps it's a bit too twisted ;-))08:15
wpwrakthis is what i use to flash the microcontroller in atusb (the chip comes empty and can't talk over usb until some firmware is loaded)08:16
wpwrakthe ben runs the flash software. to make the connection, i hold that thingy onto the pads. on the pogo pic, you see the spring-loaded pogo pins that make the contact08:17
wolfspraulI understood what it was meant for, but wasn't aware there are such contacts on atusb?08:18
wolfspraulthe pitch looks pretty big08:18
wolfspraulso this is for atusb, how about at810?08:18
wpwrakthe pitch is 100 mil. standard header.08:19
wpwrakheh, took me a while to connect this to 8:10 ;-)08:19
wpwrakthat one has no microcontroller and thus needs no programming08:19
wolfspraulthe picture in c2-use, is it using the c2-pogo?08:19
wpwrakyes08:19
wolfsprauloh. hard to see.08:19
wpwrakc2-pogo is the left side of the cable in c2-use08:20
wpwrak(upside down, to show the pins)08:20
wpwrak(hard to see) yes, it's all yellow-white on yellow-white08:20
wolfspraulah yes08:20
wolfspraulfinally08:20
wolfspraulafter looking at the two pictures more closely, I get it08:21
xiangfuwolfspraul: if you using the last openwrt-xburst. it's already using the full libiconv.08:21
wolfspraulc2-use looked like the connection was flat08:21
wolfspraulsoldered or so08:21
wolfspraulI didn't see those press-down pins, the angle is not so good for that08:21
wolfspraulxiangfu: ok great, I update.08:21
wpwrakah yes, you're right. looks misleading :)08:21
xiangfuwolfspraul: I guess you already have that.08:21
wolfspraulhow about htop and fetchmail, should I disable them to save trouble?08:21
wolfspraulxiangfu: I checked out just yesterday, and run into the sdl_image/iconv bug08:22
xiangfuwolfspraul: this commit from kyak, make our using the openwrt-package's libiconv. : 46b04421f92cfd3bae5964858771a3086ad1c8e108:22
wolfspraulthat didn't help me, I definitely have that08:23
wolfspraulmy problem is in the configuration (!) of SDL_image08:23
wolfspraulboth libiconv.so.2 and libiconv-full/lib/libiconv.so.2 exist (in staging_dir/...)08:24
wolfspraulbut I think the configuration step in SDL_image will not find the one in the libiconv-full subdirectory08:24
wolfspraulwpwrak: sure it's perfect. Adam still has 1 or 2 8:10 breakout cables08:25
wolfspraulmaybe he can just reuse those for now08:26
xiangfuwolfspraul: after that commit OpenWrt will using the openwrt-packages's libiconv,(not upstream stab version)  which is same with libiconv-full08:29
wolfspraulxiangfu: http://pastebin.com/Up7QyJ2P08:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: i would just send you a pair of those cables. i have several. easiest piece of qi-hardware ever ;-)08:30
wpwrakthis is a bit clearer: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/c2-closer.jpg08:34
wolfspraulxiangfu: you are right, the two libiconv.so.2 look the same, strange...08:34
xiangfuwolfspraul: maybe we need add -liconv. to CONFIGURE_VARS08:35
wolfspraulha. yes. only a 'little bit' though08:35
xiangfuwolfspraul: try add this to your local feeds/qipakcage/libsdl-image/Makefile : http://pastebin.com/p4bAgFKr08:37
wpwraki don't think adam will need a 30 minutes training video ;-)08:37
xiangfuwolfspraul: we meet different errors.08:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: (at810) may be a tad confusing. maybe just "atben" ?08:46
wolfspraulatben is nice, sure08:48
wolfspraulxiangfu: yes I think it worked!08:50
wolfspraulthanks a lot08:50
xiangfuwolfspraul: ok. I will commit that change08:51
wolfspraulthe build is still running, but I think it's past SDL_image already...08:51
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: libsdl-image, add -liconv to CONFIGURE_VARS http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3d0c2c508:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, is "USB" actually safe to use ?08:56
wolfspraulxiangfu: I got an error in emacs now, from strip... http://pastebin.com/G8pyn13N08:57
wolfspraul[usb] don't know, for now I assume yes it is safe08:59
wolfspraulusb seems to be focused around their logos09:00
wolfspraulthere is no yearly fee, only a one-time payment for the vendor id, which we can use for all Qi projects09:00
wpwrak(logo) excellent09:00
wolfspraulbut they do seem to work on some 'added value' logos, so you can only put this or that logo on your box if you meet this or that requirement.09:01
wpwrakyes, certification, i think09:01
wpwrak(for any logo)09:01
wpwrakand then there's that gazillion of usb variants, 2.0, 3.0, wireless, ...09:02
wolfspraulin contrast the SD people have this concept of a 'host license' that anybody who manufactures an SD host device has to pay09:02
wolfspraulwhich is not even cheap, I think 1000 or 2000 usd / yr09:02
wolfspraulyr / manufacturer09:02
wolfspraulper year per manufacturer09:03
wpwrakwell, anything less and the paperwork overhead would be more expensive :)09:03
wolfspraultrue09:03
wolfspraulthe USB people are probably also smaller (guessing)09:04
wolfspraulmaybe only a few office admin/secretary types09:04
wolfspraulthey make 2000 USD for every vendor id09:04
wolfspraulmaybe a little more for certification programs? don't know09:04
wolfspraulI think SD is bigger.09:04
wolfspraul(the organization I mean)09:04
wolfspraulnot the usefulness :-)09:05
wpwrakthe fee could be symbolic, without relation to the real cost of operation09:05
wpwrakwell, 2k/vendor ought to feed the registrar :)09:05
wpwrakah, the next ben-wpan push will derail schhist (atusd -> atben renaming. directory and files inside). it should be able to figure out where things are/were when you give it the new names, though09:08
bartbeswtf09:11
wpwrakwelcome thy friends ?09:12
bartbes"Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0)"09:12
wpwrakubifs corruption ?09:13
bartbesso what now?09:13
bartbesreflash?09:13
bartbescan running jlime from sd have caused this?09:13
bartbesbecause I remember they had incompatible partition tables09:14
viricbartbes: the *previous* messages should be more informative than that last09:14
bartbesbut the OpenWrt splash is hiding those09:15
kristianpaul( can running jlime from sd have caused this? ) i doubt it09:15
wpwraki think i did get ubifs corruption after running jlime from usd. not sure about cause and effect, though. the partition layout shouldn't have been a problem in this case09:15
bartbeseven if it tried to mount an ubifs volume at the wrong place?09:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: you have a pic of atusb without pogo?09:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: (bifs corruption after running jlime from usd) wow really? i never had such us proble here09:17
xiangfuwolfspraul: it's try to using host strip which is wrong.09:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: here's an old one: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg09:17
kristianpaulah no pongo female? there is a famale conector inst?09:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: i don't know if it really was jlime doing something bad. could also be the usbboot nand erase bug or such09:18
kristianpauls/pongo/pogo09:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: pogo connect to pads on the pcb09:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: if you look at the layout, that's all there it09:19
wpwrakkristianpaul: the header i soldered in http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg was just a quick hack because i hadn't made the pogo connector back then09:20
kristianpaullet me se09:20
kristianpaulah, a *hack*, that answer my question :-)09:21
wpwrakwell, the pogos are admittedly no less of a hack ;-) what's nicer about them is that you don't have to cut off the connector when you're done09:24
wpwrak(cutting the connector usually damages the pads, so you better make sure you don't need them again)09:25
kristianpaulyeah i tough data (damages the pads)09:27
kristianpauls/data/that09:27
bartbesso ehm09:29
bartbeshow will I restore my ben?09:29
bartbesreflash?09:29
kristianpaulyeap09:30
kristianpaulwell you can try usbboot for just uimage09:30
wpwrakno, for the ubifs uimage. the kernel is okay09:31
wpwrak(well, should be.)09:31
wpwrakah ... if the u-boot/kernel combo changed, maybe that changed the partition layout too09:31
wpwrakin this case, reverting to the u-boot/kernel (not sure which one of the two defines the layout) of openwrt may restore the ubifs09:32
bartbesI never changed those09:32
wpwrakthen it seems that you need to replace the ubifs09:33
kyakwolfspraul: it looks like yo uneed to build from scratch09:39
kyaki.e. make clean; rm -rf build_dir staging_dir feeds tmp; make package/symlinks09:39
kyaklibSDL should build just fine09:40
kyakit may be using some lefovers from your previous builds..09:40
wolfspraulkyak: no I think we tracked it down already, added -liconv09:41
wolfspraulnot libsdl, but SDL_image in qi's openwrt-packages09:42
kyakthis is strange, because i didn't have such problem with SDL_image09:42
wolfspraulit was not a problem between iconv and iconf-full, it was just a missing -liconv for the linker09:42
kyakin any case, good that it worked.. -liconv won't do harm :)09:43
kyakxiangfu: btw, i mentioned that you link manually against -lncurses a lot. Since we have ncursesw in openwrt-packages, you could link against that09:44
kyakadding libncursesw to depenedcies, of course09:44
kyaki mentioned/i noticed09:45
xiangfukyak: I totally forget that. sorry.09:45
kyakwolfspraul: actually, i had such problem with SDL, before i rebuilt from scratch :)09:45
xiangfukyak: ok. I will try using the ncursesw, will try on some packages that I just committed  today  :)09:46
kyakxiangfu: no problem.. just occured to me09:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: I think I found the emacs compile error problem.09:48
kyakxiangfu: you could try entering wide-char characters to your ncursesw packages :)09:48
xiangfuwolfspraul: http://pastebin.com/RAabMhiN , patch is like this. now I am testing.09:49
xiangfukyak: yes.09:49
kyaktime to go home now. see you later!09:50
xiangfukyak: see you09:50
wolfspraulxiangfu: you removed the MFLAGS= section?09:57
xiangfuwolfspraul: no. the terminal don't display that.09:58
xiangfuwolfspraul: I just copy form the terminal output. not a real patch. this is just fyi.09:58
wolfspraulah ok09:59
wolfspraulxiangfu: I just added -liconv to libsdl-gfx/Makefile as well10:15
xiangfuwolfspraul: ok.10:20
xiangfuwolfspraul: I think the problem about emacs, is the strip is not correct10:20
xiangfuwolfspraul: I need find a good way to pass correct STRIP to it.  will work on that after I wake up. now need goto sleep. :)10:21
xiangfucu10:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: introduced 8_10-card.fpd as politically correct alias of usd-card.fpd http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/85fb77c10:22
wolfsprauln810:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: rearranged component references and values for printing/display http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ac916810:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: changed the directory name http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/339264710:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: renamed design files and some references http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/319bd8310:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: removed atben/tools/ (functionality has moved to atrf-id long ago) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/0dc344a10:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: updated references in atben/cam/ http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fb07d5710:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: changed "uSD" in project title to "8:10 card" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f7a8bbd10:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: renamed tools/atusd.c and Makefile reference http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/32de4b610:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: changed remaining references in tools/ http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/1cd079e10:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: use 8_10-card.fpd instead of usd-card.fpd http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5281f2c10:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: great atusd -> atben renaming: update references in bom/ as well http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/98b438710:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: use 8_10-card.fpd instead of usd-card.fpd http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/903709010:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: README: changed "uSD" to "8:10 card" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d78395110:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: does adam have access to a spectrum analyzer in general / for small-run testing ?10:53
wolfsprauldon't know we have to find out10:59
wolfspraulwhat do you need it for? for design verification, or for production verification (each board)?10:59
wolfspraulwhat exactly are you looking for?10:59
wpwrakmainly for production verification. to see if a board has an abnormal spectrum (e.g., very noisy)11:01
wpwrak(or very weak)11:01
wpwrakwith a spectrum analyzer, you see such problems immediately. without, it's a bit harder11:01
wpwrak(well, spectrum analyzer or equivalent. but i guess adam didn't get an usrp for christmas ;-)11:02
kristianpaulcan you use an already tested board in order to measure spectrum from other one?11:03
wpwrakkristianpaul: no, it doesn't have a high enough resolution. not in the frequency domain and also not quite on the signal strength.11:04
wpwrakwell, maybe you can cheat with the crystal trim. lemme check ...11:05
kristianpaulso, no hope for a self test in the future?11:05
rohself tests never do more than 'fail / could be ok' seperation11:07
kristianpaulat least a self test between atusd atusd,11:08
kristianpaulmeasure some spected variables, rates, ..11:09
wpwraktrim range is about 150 ppm. that would be 0.37 MHz. i can step the constant wave +/- 0.5 MHz around the center frequency. and i can step the center frequency by increments of 5 MHz.11:09
wpwrakso, no, no way to cover the spectrum continuously11:10
kristianpaul:-(11:10
roh.s11:10
rohwpwrak: you dont have anything calibrated right?11:10
rohmeaning 'more than usrp'11:11
wpwrakroh: nada11:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: test atrf-atrf is my plan B11:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: it's good to have anyway. but being able to see the spectrum would help to pinpoint problems. after a while, you'd know where the problems usually are and a simple pass/fail will be sufficient.11:12
wolfspraulmaybe we should make the usrp our official test tool?11:13
wolfspraulwhat is the cheapest/easiest way to test, still with reasonable quality and speed?11:13
wpwrakusrp is certainly not the worst possible choice11:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah i agree (help to pinpoint initials problems)11:14
wolfspraulwhat minimum usrp equipment would we need?11:14
wpwrakthe cheapest are probably these guys: http://www.aaronia.de/produkte/spectrum-analyzer/11:14
wolfspraulminimum in terms of cost11:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: about 100 km from where you are (if you're still near saarbruecken) :)11:14
wpwrakminimum usrp: USRP1 (USD 700) plus RFX2400 transceiver (USD 275)11:16
wpwrakplus a few bits and pieces you get at the electronic shop. (cables, antenna, gender changers, maybe an attenuator or two. probably less than USD 100 in total.)11:17
wolfspraulI'm still near Saarbruecken, yes, but leaving tomorrow morning, so too late to quickly go there now...11:18
wolfspraulwhich one of the aaronia.de devices would suffice for our needs?11:18
rohwpwrak: if the aaronia is better than what you have... the cccb has a device from them11:19
rohi can just borrow it11:19
wpwrakthe 2025E V3 should be sufficient. the 4040 V3 is a bit nicer, though.11:20
wpwrakroh: aaronia should be better, yes. calibrated, for one thing :)11:20
wpwrakroh: they probably also have a wider range11:20
wpwrakoh, the usrp1 has a fairly narrow frequency range. usrp2 is much better, but also at twice the price11:21
wpwrak(narrow range) in terms of what you can see at a time without tuning11:22
wpwrakif you include tuning, then they're the same11:22
kyakxiangfu: you can have a look at gcc-mips/Makefile for some STRIP usage example11:24
kristianpaulEinsteiger11:24
kristianpaul..11:24
wpwrakroh: not sure how good the readout is on the aaronia.11:25
kristianpaul:-)11:25
wpwrakkristianpaul: http://spectran.com    :-)11:25
wpwrakwhat's bad about the aaronia things is that they come in this huge aluminium box. so shipping ought to be very expensive.11:26
kristianpaulyou should use RF screening in your place11:28
wpwrakkristianpaul: you mean to make sure nobody mistakes it for an apartment where people live ? ;-)11:29
kristianpaul:-)11:29
wpwrak(shipping of the alu box) to argentina, it would be EUR 280. (i once investigated the possibility of getting one of their devices, but eventually gave up. the peripheral costs (expensive shipping, special customs treatment, etc.) just add up to basically doubling the price)11:32
wpwrak(doubling) and then add taxes. so final cost in .ar = 3 x .de price11:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you have to pay customs fees for the 3 nanos we sent recently?11:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: i have USRP2 + XCVR2450. the XCVR2450 is a bit more expensive than the RFX2400 and also has the 5 GHz band in addition to 2.4 GHz. (the RFX2400 does 2.3-2.9 GHz) the XCVR2450 also has twice the transmit power of the RFX2400.11:45
wpwrakwolfspraul: what the XCVR2450 doesn't have (and which i didn't find out until later) is simultaneous TX and RX. that would have been useful for my antenna testing.11:46
wolfspraulwhy would the spectrum analyzer create 'special customs treatment' like you wrote? do you know specifics?11:46
wpwrak(3 nanos) yes, of course.11:46
wolfspraulhow much did fedex charge you in total?11:47
wpwrak(customs treatment) there is a USD 1000 limit for the value of private imports that arrive via courier or regular mail. anything above it gets the "commercial" treatment.11:48
wpwrakthere's one exception: EMS has a limit of USD 3000.11:48
wpwrakthat's why i used EMS when i bought the USRP. went smoothly, no problem. (non-EMS couriers get better taxes, though. about 30% on total value while EMS and regular mail get 50% on the value of the goods.)11:49
wpwrakalas, there is no EMS in germany and aaronia aren't present in any other country.11:50
wpwrakthus, i would have to involve a commercial importer to handle these things for me (or take my chances at bribery)11:51
wpwrakthe commerical importer would of course want a cut. and then the customs broker charges for their part, too.11:52
rohthat suckx11:53
rohwould it be easier to buy some used lab equipment from the us?11:53
wpwrakfor the bens, fedex charged ARS 534. that's about USD 130.11:54
wpwrakvia fedex, charges are in the 30-40% range.11:54
wpwrakroh: used equipment is very bad. apparently, you're not allowed to import that at all.11:55
rohwpwrak: ah.. paperwork... then its refurbished11:55
wpwrakroh: sure, if it looks new and the documentation doesn't say anything suspicious, then it ought to be fine11:56
lekernelwpwrak: customs in argentina look like a lot of fun...12:09
lekerneldon't those people have anything better to do?12:10
wpwraklekernel: oh yes, they do. and it gets particularly bad if the thingy you're getting connects to mains. unless it happens to have the not very common certification for argentina, you can't import it without getting it certified first. they also refuse to just remove the power supply from the shipment and let the rest pass, although i'm not sure whether this is just them being bastards or some restriction with a legal basis.12:11
wpwraklekernel: oh, i think they're doing quite well. whenever they can create a problem, this usually means money for them. so they have every incentive for being attentive.12:12
Ornotermeshttp://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=360314:08
Ornotermesi call it pyClock for now, it uses pygame to draw a binary clock14:10
wolfspraulOrnotermes: nice! I don't get how the picture of the chain and the software connect together?14:14
Ornotermeswolfspraul: its the default image for links in Gallery214:17
kristianpaulah !, you get me on that too :-)14:17
lekernelhttp://visual6502.org/14:18
lekerneltry the javascript simulation :)14:18
kristianpaulwow14:20
wolfspraulOrnotermes: ah OK, I got it now :-) I was distracted by the photo, didn't understand that this was the source tarball :-)14:20
wolfspraulof course this is very nice work, we'll try to package it and include in future images...14:21
wolfspraulis it ok that I upload the screenshot into the wiki? http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=360414:21
Ornotermesofc :)14:22
wolfspraulok, just asking because you have those nice license tags, but this one is not tagged...14:22
wolfspraulwell great, this is a very nice clock!14:22
Ornotermesnot yet :P14:22
Ornotermesall photos including RAW images is included for those interested, as CC SA14:23
kristianpaul6502 <-- And you are suposed to track visually all changes that happen between register?14:25
kristianpaul commodore times.. , i wish at least have had a Z80.. but no, anyway here i'm i got a nanonote :p14:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: WYSIWYG at its best :)14:33
wolfspraulkristianpaul: ha - I just experience what you said the other day about the icons looking too good!14:45
wolfspraulbuilt the latest image from source, just reflashed my nano.14:46
wolfspraula lot of icons look really juicy now, but when you click on them you land in this text desert :-)14:46
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ;-)14:47
kristianpaulI think is opositive feeling compareted when you're testing the last bleeding edge Jlime version14:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: you think the jlime icons are too austere ?15:01
kristianpaulwpwrak: no15:03
kristianpauli mean last jlime (fro oe upstream) have some nice looking icons and theme, something similir about what is hapening with gmenu2x right now, but of course, with diferent result after you launch the app :-)15:05
kristianpaulwpwrak: jlime muffinman is okay for me15:06
wpwrakaah. yes, the applications are nice.15:06
kristianpaulthats the point !15:06
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: introduced 8_10-card.lib as politically correct alternative to usd-card.lib http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b205efc15:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: use 8_10-card.fpd instead of usd-card.fpd http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/32946a515:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: use 8_10-card.lib instead of usd-card.lib http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/b6cfb8215:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: c2ben.sch: finally, rename the title as well http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/d91546315:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: c2-ben.c: title comment still claimed the driver was for GTA01/02 http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/a3a31f415:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: now that all users of usd-card have been changed to 8_10-card, remove it http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/20a669c15:49
wpwrakand thus the great purge ends15:50
wpwrakwell, almost. it still lingers at a few not so important places15:51
lekernelhttp://lekernel.net/presentations/Milkymist_FOSDEM2011/milkymist_fosdem.pdf17:06
kristianpaulgap slide +117:13
Ornotermeslekernel: where did you find the B/W picture on page 3?17:14
kristianpauloh are VJ too !17:15
wpwrakkristianpaul: that explains it :)17:15
lekernel?17:16
lekernelexplains what?17:16
wpwraklekernel: is the kludgy software what you found or what you wrote ?17:16
kristianpaul"PC towers feel heavy when carried around at 5am"17:16
kristianpaulno latops in that time? :-)17:16
kristianpauls/ltops/laptops17:17
wpwrakkristianpaul: maybe that osborne thing :)17:17
lekernelOrnotermes: do you really want to know? ;)17:18
lekernelwpwrak: wtf?17:18
wpwraklekernel: page 2, 2nd bullet. what does it mean ?17:18
kristianpaulha, quoting OS X, apple will follow you close now17:18
kristianpaul:-)17:19
lekernelwpwrak: software that I wrote, yes17:19
kristianpaulnevre released isnt?17:19
lekernelor rather hacked together17:19
Ornotermeslekernel: is there any particular reason why i wouldn't? :P17:19
wpwraklekernel: maybe you should clarify this in the slide. e.g., that you're not lambasting other people's work17:20
kristianpaulwwo slide 13, why my flicknoise dint look like that??17:20
kristianpaul"Boots and gets ready in seconds"17:20
kristianpaulyeap !17:20
kristianpaul"Extra features"17:21
kristianpaulWhere is that part?17:21
wolfspraulkristianpaul: is your m1 booting again?17:21
kristianpaulI'll like watch it at leat :-)17:21
kristianpaulwolfspraul: since yday17:21
kristianpaulflashed from scratch :-)17:22
kristianpaulmotion vectors <- kinetic ? ;-)17:22
lekernelkristianpaul: you should read a milkdrop doc, this will tell you about those17:23
lekerneli'll explain them briefly, but not on the slide17:23
kristianpaulah ok...17:23
kristianpaulbtw my bios still saying PCB revision 117:24
kristianpaullol slide 24 ;-)17:24
kristianpaul+1 what next of course :-D17:24
lekernelrc1 was revision 017:25
wpwraklekernel: slide 6, "Trend for ``open hardware''" also is a little ambiguous, because it states a process without defining a point of reference. e.g., it could be "this should happen", "this is beginning to happen", or "this is well under way"17:25
kristianpaul"X11 is a pain on embedded systems"17:26
kristianpaultry get a quote froma Jlime user :-)17:26
lekernelwpwrak: that's a complex question that wouldn't fit in a single line of a slide17:27
wpwraklekernel: slide 7, looks a little odd. isn't this less a gap than more a hole. e.g., below a certain level, there simply isn't/wasn't anything non-proprietary17:28
lekerneldiagrams like this are _always_ wrong, and I think it's still worthy to place things like Kicad, PCB designs and Qcad on it17:29
wpwraklekernel: (slide 6) maybe something like "Recently, trend towards" or such ? or maybe "also" instead of "trend", because "trend" suggests a broad movement, which we probably don't have yet17:30
wpwraklekernel: (always wrong) true ;-) perhaps a more "correct" layering would be sw on top, then traditional, then one block with hdl, semi impl, and semi manuf, horizontally divided. since they're a linear process, you could show this with angled ("arrowish") boxes, e.g., Digital design > semi impl > semi manuf17:32
lekerneldepends. arduino folks claim they're doing "open hardware", and "arduino" has surpassed "microcontroller" in terms of google search volumes17:32
lekernelcheck on google trends if you don't believe me :)17:32
kristianpaulcan you put that on slides?17:33
lekernelno, because I don't think Arduino is really open hardware17:33
wpwraklekernel: googlefight.com disagrees :) 911k vs. 528k. but it's still impressive. okay, so trend is good :)17:34
lekernelgooglefight returns the number of pages17:34
lekernelnot how many times people search for stuff17:34
lekernelas I said, it's a complex question17:36
wpwrakso more are searching but they're finding less :) anyway, your point stands17:36
lekernelyup, it's exactly that :)17:36
wpwraki think the key is "opening". even with a proprietary chip, if you open the schematics, layout, and such, you're making one step towards more openness. at least today. at some point in the future, this may not be enough anymore.17:37
lekerneloh, well17:38
wpwrakslide 9 is confusing. "what makes it SPECIFIC ?" ... "contains a GENERAL-PURPOSE". sounds like a contradiction :)17:38
lekernelAtmel and TI usually have rather open schematics and layouts for their reference designs, don't they...17:39
wpwraklekernel: )open ref designs) yup, and it's a good thing. there are also those guys who don't do that. NDAs for every scrap of information.17:40
wpwraklekernel: did you intentionally not capitalize the "it" on slide 12, 2nd bullet, 1st sub-item ? ("it will even disappear")17:42
lekernelhum, no17:42
wpwraklekernel:also slide 12, "If you get it right" is nicely ambiguous. one could read it as "if you don't get it right (the design/chip/whatever), people have to mess with the complexity they shouldn't have to mess with" ;-)17:44
wpwraklekernel: also on slide 12, in the last item "It is actually easy." seems redundant.17:45
wpwraklekernel: slide 13, maybe mention which GPL version ? (if that's not messy)17:45
wpwraklekernel: slide 16, might be useful to explain what "patch" means in this context (if that's straightforward, and you're not showing it in some other way at the same time)17:48
wpwraklekernel: slides 15 through 18 could perhaps benefit from still image / stylized examples, also such that you don't need to explain visual concepts with words, which is tricky in the best of cases17:51
wpwraklekernel: slide 20, s/not a FPGA/not an FPGA/17:52
wpwraklekernel: since you mention CC-BY-SA on slide 23, how about putting it somewhere on slide 21 as well ?17:53
lekernelah, I see you're picking up the old and rare "a FPGA" vs. "an FPGA" troll :)17:54
wpwraknice title on slide 24 ;-)17:54
lekernelwell it's fosdem embedded devroom. filled with nerds.17:55
wpwraklekernel: well, it depends on how you pronounce it. eff-pee-gee-aye or fp'ga. the latter sounds like klingon :)17:55
wpwraklekernel: if you say "eff-...", it's "an". klingons use "a"17:56
steve|ma friggin' field programmable gate array!11 ;)17:57
wpwrakslide 25. the first bullet seems to want an adjective that says what sort of barrier it is. or maybe you just mean "SDRAM controllers are hard to design" ?17:58
lekernelwell, getting the SDRAM to work puts an end to many FPGA projects17:58
wpwraksteve|m: alright. then the speaker stops and has a glass of water ;-)17:58
wpwraklekernel: suicide ? death by old age ? ;-)17:58
lekernelboth industrial and hobby...17:59
wpwrakperhaps what also makes the SDRAM barrier sound wrongish is that it's not actually the SDRAM but the interface. (e.g., one could interpret the sentence that SDRAM is too expensive, hard to source, etc.)18:02
wolfspraulI just call it a peripheral now (the fpga), with currently bad free software support18:02
wolfspraullike a graphics card or modem in the 90's18:02
wolfsprauland the other problem with the sdram statement is that it sounds boastful18:03
wolfspraulnever a good idea that you claim you can do something that others can't18:03
wolfspraulthat's actually a very good way to get them try harder to proove you wrong...18:03
wpwrak;-)18:03
wpwrakmaybe a neutral characterization of the main difficulty/class of difficulties could help to illustrate the issue. i think the rest of the slide is okay, not too boastful18:05
wpwrakslide 27, floating point pipeline_s_ ... maybe make "N [parallel] pipelines" a separate bullet ?18:06
wpwraklots of bad vibes in slide 29. crappy, bugs, dirty, ... you could defang it with a quote of one of the authors himself would characterize it with such words18:09
wpwrakslide 27, btw, BusyBox is camel-cased18:10
wpwrakslide 31 also has "a FPGA"18:12
wpwrakslide 32 could benefit from clearer naming of the licenses (if reasonable), e.g., GPLv2+, CC-BY-SA, etc.18:12
wpwrakwill you have some slides in case people ask about LLHDL ? may be useful to have one or two simple ones, e.g., with the workflow and maybe a code example18:14
wpwrakby the way, what equipment do VJs currently use ? may make sense to show the competition, particularly if the competition is visible inferior/messy18:17
wpwrak(your PC example is already ~5 years old and i would guess that VJing solutions have evolved rapidly in this time, considering that this is still something relatively new)18:18
wolfspraulI doubt that.18:19
wolfspraulThey use Macs, a lot of them like video loops, and they like high-res, maybe even over multiple monitors/projectors.18:19
wolfspraulnone of those things Milkymist One can do :-)18:19
wolfspraulthe unique thing of m1 is the dmx and video-in, to a lesser degree midi18:20
wpwrakhmm. so if our MM1-toting VJ goes to a club, he won't be able to drive the equipment ? i hope that isn't so18:20
wolfspraulbut from the perspective of the 'normal' vj, m1 is a very unusual thing, many would have a hard time overcoming for example the 640x480 resolution18:20
wolfspraulno he can, I'm just describing things in the most down-to-earth way, because you asked about comparisons18:21
wolfspraulthey will ask "what resolution?"18:21
wpwrakyes, video manipulation is indeed something one doesn't see often18:21
wolfsprauland they want to hear 1900x1200 or whatever18:21
wolfspraulI'm not afraid to highlight those things, in reality in most clubs the resolution doesn't matter.18:22
wolfspraul90% won't care and still want the highest resolution, fine then.18:22
wpwrakyeah. at least not for long ;-)18:22
wolfspraulthe video-in is unique18:22
wolfsprauland dmx integration18:22
wolfspraulbut someone needs to be really on the creative side to see that as an opportunity18:22
wpwrak"unique" may be too strong18:23
wolfspraulmost of them just get hired for 200 bucks, they go there, do their thing, go home18:23
wolfspraulnot everybody is a picasso...18:23
wolfspraulif someone is really creative, and doesn't mind trying new things, or has the finance/standing/brand to pull that off, he will see m1 as something very interesting18:23
wolfspraulbecause you can program/patch stuff with video-in, dmx that you just can't do with a Mac18:24
wolfspraulif I understood someting wrong, I'm sure lekernel will correct me :-)18:24
wolfspraulthis is my current understanding of things on the VJ side...18:24
wpwrakperhaps the emphasis isn't so good then. in the presentation, the statement is basically that MM1 is a better mac. same task, nicer tool.18:24
wolfsprauldefinitely not18:24
wolfspraulwe can spare us comparisons with a high-end Mac here, at whatever tech parameter we look18:25
wpwrakthat seems to be missing. maybe: 1) can do the same old jobs, but doesn't try to excel there. 2) can do cool new shit.18:25
wolfspraulthe thing is that m1 is different, you can do very unique things with it18:25
wolfspraultotally new things18:25
wolfspraulvideo-in, dmx18:25
wolfspraulthose are hard with a mac, then you need a lot of gear18:26
wpwraki don't think it's totally new. but certainly not common.18:26
wolfspraulfrom a creative perspective, I think it is new18:26
wolfspraulin the end m1 is just a tool18:26
wolfspraullike a new type of brush18:26
wolfspraulan artist needs to see the potential of that new brush to allow him to express something interesting in new ways18:26
wolfspraulm1 can't do that, the artist needs to do that18:27
wolfsprauland that is definitely possible with it18:27
wolfspraulbut not if you compare vga resolutions to your mac...18:27
wpwraki saw some videos (don't remember who pointed to them, maybe sebastien himself) that show some video-in processing18:27
wpwrakone guy activating effects to the sound of "sandstorm" and some nicer dancer performing to "i'll kill you"18:28
wolfspraulthe question to me is - from 100 VJs, how many are truly creative, how many just want to have an easy way through their jobs18:28
wolfspraulthat I don't know yet18:28
wolfsprauland how can we reach the ones that are experimental/creative, and don't mind to try a new thing like m118:28
wpwraksome may also just want a shrink-wrapped box with new effects. i think mm1 can do that too.18:29
wolfspraulyes, it can18:29
wolfspraulbut like I said, the motivation to be creative/different needs to start with the VJ18:29
wolfspraulif he is comparing with his mac, forget it, waste of time18:29
wolfspraul"is this a better mac?"18:29
wolfspraul"can this replace my mac?"18:29
wpwrakhmm, maybe that's too restrictive18:29
wolfsprauletc. etc.18:29
wpwrakhow about "can do interesting new things" and mention the kind of effects that are still uncommon but may become just another item in the toolbox with time as an example ?18:30
wolfspraulsebastien is planning to make a video at some point18:31
wolfspraullet's see18:31
wpwrakah, and never say that the artist has to be creative. i don't think they like that ;-) tell them that it allows them to unleash their creativity :)18:31
wolfspraulcomparisons with a high-end Mac are very hard for m118:31
wolfspraulm1 could also do real-time compression and send it over ethernet to some other place18:32
wolfspraulI think it's fair to say, for most VJs, the software they have on their macs is very powerful/flexible.18:33
wpwrakfor the video, you could start with the high-end mac, showing a rotating teapot in HDTV or such. with people sitting or laying on the dance floor. then fade to MM1 ;-)18:33
wolfspraulyou don't want to go into a comparison with that stuff18:34
wolfspraulm1 is really cool, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying comparisons with mac or mac vj software are leading in the wrong direction.18:34
wpwrakbut it's the obvious question18:34
wpwrakif MM1 is positioned as "a VJ station"18:35
wolfspraulyes, different from the mac and mac vj software18:35
wolfspraultotally different18:35
wolfspraulreboot your mind :-)18:35
wolfspraulat that point 90% may say "no thanks, my mac is just fine and I'm having fun"18:36
wolfspraullet's hope we find the other 10% effectively...18:36
wpwrakah .... it's "Interactive VJ station". good. a bit more elaboration of that one, and it's good. making it clear that "interactive" is not purely descriptive but points out something special.18:37
wolfspraulsome videos that show what you can do with m1 will be very helpful18:37
wpwrakabsolutely. viral marketing rocks :)18:37
wolfspraulI saw a clip of a pet shop boys concert recently, they definitely have a lot of need for technology :-)18:40
wolfspraulm1 needs to find people that invest time in it, to create something truly different.18:41
wolfspraulmaybe not the pet shop boys (are the retired again? don't know), but someone with energy and means to pull off something a little bigger than an upgrade to his VJ software.18:41
wolfspraulwow I just read the wikipedia entry about the pet shop boys, and it says they have a full-time programmer for their stage work18:44
wolfspraulthat should suffice for m1 :-)18:44
wpwraki think pre-made novel effects would also go a long way. give VJs something cool to show without having to work too hard. helps both the lazy and the otherwise busy.18:44
wolfspraulyes true. we need to make the first step(s).18:44
wolfspraultotally agree18:44
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: 8_10-card.fpd: set pad type to "bare", so the we don't get solder paste on them http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/1a5a92e20:16
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: pads.fpd: set pad type to "bare", so the we don't get solder paste on it http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/4dfabf520:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: meander.fpd: use new pad type "trace" without solder paste and mask opening http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c6532c720:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben.brd: updated 8_10-card, to update pad type http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d64464220:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/atben.brd, atusb/atusb.brd: updated PAD_60x60 to update pad type http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2c96bcb20:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/README: manufacturing notes http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/38fe79820:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/Makefile: replaced board name by $(NAME) or pattern http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7d91ee620:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb.brd: removed unused Adhesive Front layer http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/af4ce1f20:42
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile (clean), atusb/Makefile (clean): remove Gerbers http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/478f60020:42
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: pyclock, python digital clock http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1e33f1321:41
--- Tue Jan 18 201100:00

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