| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: offrss and some depends pakcages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1c605fe | 01:53 |
|---|---|---|
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: timidity, MIDI files player http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/49ec918 | 01:56 |
| kyak | does anyone know if Ben has a backup battery (or capacity?) for HW clock? | 02:37 |
| kyak | i noticed it is reset to start of epoch when Ben is _fully_ discharged | 02:37 |
| xiangfu_ | kyak: no backup battery for HW clock. | 02:48 |
| kyak | xiangfu_: ok, thanks | 02:51 |
| kyak | though Ben can usually live throught the night without external power supply, i sometimes forget to connect it to laptop in the morning :) | 02:52 |
| kyak | then i find it blacked out | 02:53 |
| kyak | maybe i can make it produce sound signals via cron when the battery level is low | 02:53 |
| wpwrak | roh: (sanded) good. i was already getting a little scared by the powers of your laser cutter :) | 02:53 |
| kyak | this would be cool | 02:54 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: fixed section display not correct in ben nanonote http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/91d3fea | 04:22 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: update http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f07d355 | 04:33 |
| wpwrak | interesting. this is a complete ben: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110112/ | 04:46 |
| wpwrak | and this is just the PCB: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ | 04:46 |
| wpwrak | still need to get rid of the "mountain", but it seems that lcm may also play a role in making things a little messy | 04:47 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: I introduced the cmdline patch on the kicad list, and someone replied. so that's a start... | 05:09 |
| wolfspraul | what I need to do now is to move to the latest kicad version first. | 05:09 |
| wolfspraul | do you mind if I just pick the latest and see whether it builds? (forward-port the patches) | 05:09 |
| wolfspraul | hmmm. thinking about this maybe we should decouple the use of KiCad at Qi, and trying to upstream the cmdline patch. | 05:10 |
| wolfspraul | I could make a subdirectory in kicad-patches, like kicad-patches/upstream | 05:11 |
| wolfspraul | then work there to bring the patches into an upstreamable format | 05:11 |
| wolfspraul | yeah I think that makes more sense than trying to sync this task with our own use of KiCad | 05:11 |
| wolfspraul | let me know if you disagree... | 05:11 |
| wpwrak | going to the latest sounds good to me. always better to stay close than to try to delay the inevitable for too long | 06:11 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: yes but I think I need to decouple the upstream patches from the ones we are using. | 06:11 |
| wolfspraul | there will be feedback, and I have to rearrange patches etc. | 06:11 |
| wpwrak | if the latest version looks good with our designs, then we should update the version we generally use as well | 06:12 |
| wolfspraul | and I may need to uptick very frequently | 06:12 |
| wpwrak | anything else is just confusion ;-) | 06:12 |
| wolfspraul | that will be a mess if it's the same base we are building our 'daily use' KiCad from | 06:12 |
| wpwrak | sure, doesn't make sense to update every five minutes while merging | 06:12 |
| wolfspraul | I got another quite encouraging reply on the list, so now I guess I'm obliged to actually do something :-) | 06:12 |
| wolfspraul | at least it seems the KiCad community is functioning, that's good | 06:13 |
| wpwrak | (checking the list) haven't caught of for weeks ... | 06:13 |
| wolfspraul | sure, I will just try to get this upstream, then unsubscribe | 06:13 |
| wolfspraul | unfortunately it's quite a bit of work, oh well | 06:13 |
| wolfspraul | hacking codes is far easier than communicating, understanding, and reaching consensus | 06:13 |
| wpwrak | well, the reactions are good so far. communication seems to be working ;-) | 06:17 |
| wpwrak | hmm, so much about using a "clean" clock :-( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ | 06:25 |
| wolfspraul | oh wow, that's a lot worse than before :-) | 06:27 |
| wpwrak | it does show that the chip seems to prefer a sinusoid clock, though. that's useful information. | 06:30 |
| wpwrak | i kinda wonder why going from a complete ben to just the main pcb improved things so much, though. for comparison, here are yesterday's results (full ben): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ | 06:30 |
| wpwrak | (i had to go to the bare pcb because the board wouldn't fit into the 8:10 slot in the case anymore) | 06:31 |
| buggus | hmm | 08:35 |
| zrafa | Mauro_R: wpwrak : technology : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJeHHGqSSw | 08:36 |
| Mauro_R | let me see ... | 08:36 |
| Mauro_R | jaja :-) it's the last technology ... ecologic .... | 08:40 |
| Mauro_R | you must keep safe of don't burn your parts ;-p | 08:40 |
| lekernel | burning wood isn't that ecologic... and btw steam explosions are dangerous | 08:41 |
| lekernel | afaik they were the main problem that prevented the development of the steam engine at the beginning | 08:42 |
| Mauro_R | lekernel: I'm sure that it's more ecologic than the batteries ... | 08:45 |
| wpwrak | zrafa: (bike) cool ! ;-) | 10:12 |
| lekernel | maybe, maybe not. I haven't done the math, so I won't jump into saying which is more ecologic. it's not an easy question | 10:17 |
| lekernel | but it sure is more dangerous than batteries | 10:18 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: I mentioned our emi tests to Adam, he was very happy to hear that such a complex board passed on most tests right away. | 10:18 |
| wolfspraul | when I described the one failed esd/field test to him, he asked in which area the sink was, but I told him we were too lazy to track that down, going for the whole metal sheet instead | 10:19 |
| lekernel | except that maybe DIY batteries might done the same way as this steam engine, i.e. with open acid and nasty chemicals just waiting to spill on you when you fall :) | 10:19 |
| wolfspraul | we suspect it may be the dram area, right? | 10:19 |
| lekernel | wolfspraul: yeah, probably | 10:19 |
| wolfspraul | I don't want to do random layout changes in rc3 though, that sounds riskier to me than just going with the metal sheet for now | 10:19 |
| lekernel | laziness is good. gets things done fast | 10:20 |
| wolfspraul | one day if someone has time and energy, that person can track down the sink more precisely... | 10:20 |
| lekernel | and attaching a metal shield to the DRAM alone can also be more expensive and complicated than the whole sheet | 10:20 |
| wolfspraul | sure I'm not complaining. the metal sheet is the right approach now, not risky layout changes. | 10:20 |
| wolfspraul | well we could try to make changes in the layout | 10:20 |
| lekernel | metal sheet is only a few tens of cents, and simple assembly... | 10:21 |
| wolfspraul | but it will be hard to make the right changes there that actually fix the issue, and be without regressions too | 10:21 |
| wolfspraul | yes yes :-) | 10:21 |
| wolfspraul | we are on the same page | 10:21 |
| wolfspraul | I am just telling you about bringing Adam into this. | 10:21 |
| wolfspraul | no layout changes in rc3 to try to fix this potential dram esd/field sink issue | 10:21 |
| lekernel | no, sure not | 10:22 |
| wolfspraul | you could add extra copper to the pcb | 10:22 |
| lekernel | but we may want to fix the boot problem as early as rc3 | 10:22 |
| wolfspraul | it would not be too unusual in adam's experience. just fyi. we will not do it, no worries :-) | 10:22 |
| lekernel | the pcb is already full of copper | 10:22 |
| wolfspraul | yes, agreed | 10:22 |
| wolfspraul | we are on the same page | 10:23 |
| wolfspraul | at some point I need to decide the size of rc3 | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | I'm thinking 50-100 | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | tough decision again | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | I think we have to be brave and believe in the product :-) | 10:25 |
| wolfspraul | I will start sourcing a few things already, anything with lead time > 4 weeks. | 10:26 |
| wolfspraul | just fyi | 10:26 |
| Mauro_R | lekernel: acid, nasty chemicals ... also, solid batteries are less eco than burn wood or coal ... | 10:26 |
| Mauro_R | lekernel: but I understand your point, burn wood isn´t good enough ... | 10:27 |
| LunohoD | re | 10:30 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add a new theme http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9186e37 | 11:20 |
| lekernel | wpwrak: are the openmoko gerber files available somewhere? | 11:29 |
| lekernel | I can't find them | 11:29 |
| wolfspraul | not available | 11:30 |
| lekernel | really?! | 11:30 |
| lekernel | wow... | 11:30 |
| wolfspraul | yeah sounds like dark age from our perspective nowadays :-) | 11:30 |
| wolfspraul | as some of my last official function at Openmoko, I released netlist, board outline and a few other small things under a cc license, to help jumpstart gta02-core. | 11:31 |
| wolfspraul | but the full GERBER files, or PADS Layout files, were never published | 11:31 |
| lekernel | amazing that project still got so popular | 11:34 |
| kristianpaul | indeed | 11:34 |
| lekernel | no features, lots of bugs, little openness... | 11:35 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: only partoally available - the outside layers | 11:35 |
| wpwrak | lekernel: it was still the most open at its time ... | 11:35 |
| lekernel | probably has to do with the average hacker's interest for communication networks :) | 11:36 |
| wpwrak | that too :) | 11:36 |
| kristianpaul | the case was finally open isnt? | 11:37 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: the CAD files have been published, yes | 11:38 |
| Action: kristianpaul wonder how usable those are | 11:38 | |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: me too ;-) | 11:38 |
| wolfspraul | lekernel: it was popular for 2 reasons imho | 11:41 |
| wolfspraul | one was the time of the announcement | 11:41 |
| wolfspraul | the Symbian dark age | 11:41 |
| wolfspraul | don't forget, this was _before_ the iPhone, before Android | 11:42 |
| wolfspraul | I would have killed someone to get out of this Symbian hell. | 11:42 |
| wolfspraul | I was working in the smartphone industry, and had been tortured by Symbian suits for years. | 11:42 |
| wolfspraul | there was a lot of anger built up there, and Palm Treo was only partially able to benefit from that | 11:42 |
| wolfspraul | so the promise of an 'open' platform was wildly welcomed | 11:42 |
| wolfspraul | nowadays the iphone and android platforms are considered the 'open' ones, with 100k+ apps etc. | 11:43 |
| wolfspraul | so that was the first reason | 11:43 |
| wolfspraul | announcing an open phone platform in late 2006 was just perfect | 11:43 |
| wolfspraul | second reason was gross brutal over-promising | 11:44 |
| Jay7 | bad that no one software stack was succeeded | 11:44 |
| wolfspraul | back then I was clueless so I couldn't tell how bad it was | 11:44 |
| wolfspraul | but today I know :-) | 11:44 |
| Jay7 | LiMo seems failed | 11:44 |
| Jay7 | MeeGo is half-life | 11:44 |
| wolfspraul | it's like I make an announcement today that Sharism Ltd. will ship a competitor to the Airbus A380 in May this year. | 11:44 |
| wolfspraul | so OM had a history of again and again and again over-promising | 11:45 |
| wolfspraul | against all reason, almost insane | 11:45 |
| wolfspraul | over-promising will always give you some popularity first :-) | 11:45 |
| wolfspraul | those were the 2 reasons for me 1) timing 2) over-primising | 11:45 |
| qbject | I had no idea, when I acquired an ebook of Gibson's Zero History to read on my BNN, that it would feature a Neo so heavily. | 11:47 |
| qbject | (Just started reading it.) | 11:47 |
| wolfspraul | Neo in fiction, maybe that's where its actual natural habitat was from the beginning... | 11:48 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: well, sharism vs. a380 is exaggerating a little :) with a better hw team and a more realistic approach for the software, i think things could have turned out much better | 11:55 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: and of course, management that is a lot less fond of u-turns :) | 11:55 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: I stand behind sharism vs. a380 | 11:57 |
| wolfspraul | it was just gross, really. | 11:57 |
| wolfspraul | there is a difference between what you want to do, and what you can do | 11:57 |
| wolfspraul | but it was also the reason for the popularity, of course | 11:58 |
| wolfspraul | popularity = delayed frustration | 11:58 |
| wolfspraul | so that's exactly what happened later | 11:59 |
| wolfspraul | anyway we are learning, and still around. :-) | 11:59 |
| wolfspraul | I'm quite optimistic actually... | 11:59 |
| wolfspraul | wpwrak: the dynamics of competition among the companies openmoko was compared with are very tough. so with those comparisons, it never had a chance, from day 1. | 12:00 |
| wolfspraul | Palm tried the same thing with the Pre, they invested ca. 400 million USD, and even that was not enough. | 12:00 |
| wolfspraul | to get into that league, you need multi-billion USD investments, and most importantly you need very strong partners | 12:01 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: yeah, i was thinking more of the technical side - make a device that works properly, hw and sw. i think that would have been feasible. | 12:02 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: maybe the competition would then have trampled openmoko anyway | 12:02 |
| wolfspraul | you need scale, rock solid partnerships | 12:02 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: yeha, no idea how/if it could have scaled | 12:04 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: of course, had openmoko been successful in making the first usable open phone, maybe the partners would have come on their own | 12:05 |
| qbject | I'm not using one any more, but my partner is certainly suffering through waves of scalability problems from Peek, Inc. | 12:06 |
| qbject | Every time their marketing is successful, their infrastructure shudders. | 12:08 |
| wpwrak | the "mountain" is rather persistent | 12:16 |
| wpwrak | http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ | 12:16 |
| wpwrak | now i tried it with an external antenna. not much of a change. then with a cable straight to the usrp (having a bit of trouble keeping the power down without changing the gain) | 12:17 |
| wpwrak | hm, looks better with lower gain. here it is. | 12:20 |
| wolfspraul | yeah just wanted to say - even with external antenna looks similar | 12:21 |
| wpwrak | yup. so it's not over-the-air self-interference | 12:22 |
| wpwrak | still don't entirely trust the clock. maybe i'll try a board with a crystal. | 12:23 |
| wpwrak | but first a bit more power bypassing | 12:23 |
| wpwrak | there's also an interesting change between the complete ben (with lcm) and just the main pcb. the latter has a lot less noise. it could be just some field distortion caused by the extra metal objects, of course. | 12:25 |
| wpwrak | alright. some more unlikely causes ruled out. | 12:46 |
| kristianpaul | I would suggest the following: | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | -1 => 00 | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | -0 => 01 | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | +0 => 10 | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | +1 => 11 | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: ^^^^ | 13:01 |
| wpwrak | aha ! | 13:01 |
| kristianpaul | hum.... I am not entirely sure -0=+0. I would say that +0>-0. Remember | 13:02 |
| kristianpaul | that the point is to use as much info as you can | 13:02 |
| kristianpaul | from fabrizio | 13:02 |
| wpwrak | maybe it's time to ask sige ? | 13:02 |
| kristianpaul | hmm i want have something working with satellites at least before ask | 13:03 |
| kristianpaul | or ask for 6-8 bits ADC... ;) | 13:04 |
| wpwrak | well, you can pick one interpretation and just work with that. it shouldn't fail too badly if you're wrong | 13:04 |
| kristianpaul | sure | 13:05 |
| kristianpaul | my trouble now is converting imaginary data to real.. | 13:06 |
| kristianpaul | i need read more | 13:06 |
| wpwrak | ah, entering the joyful part of signal processing ;-) | 13:08 |
| kristianpaul | :D | 13:09 |
| wpwrak | this looks like a step in the right direction. last two entries on http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ | 13:51 |
| wolfspraul | indeed, slowly though. interesting stuff. | 13:57 |
| wpwrak | intersting ... as soon as i connect the scope - on either side of the DC-blocking cap (!), the clock collapses :-( | 13:58 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: (slowly) yeah, every single decibel puts up a fight :) | 13:59 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added cad/Makefile to automate svg2pdf and dxf2png http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/72c2bda | 17:04 |
| kristianpaul | new gmenux theme is nice, but... some apps icon tell more than you can expect from a command line/ncurse interface.. talking from eye candy perspective | 19:29 |
| wolfspraul | kristianpaul: you mean they look too good? | 19:53 |
| wolfspraul | which ones in particular do you have in mind? | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | yes too good | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | mutt | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | sdvc may be | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | no more | 19:53 |
| wolfspraul | hah, with mutt you picked the wrong one. | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | why? | 19:53 |
| wolfspraul | I think it's the best email client in the world, the icon cannot possibly look too good :-) | 19:53 |
| wolfspraul | (just kidding) | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | i use mutt | 19:53 |
| kristianpaul | ah ok | 19:53 |
| wolfspraul | if the icons are misleading, that's not good. I didn't look at them one by one yet, but I like that things look better now. | 19:54 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: couldn't agree more :-) | 19:54 |
| kristianpaul | sure looks good | 19:54 |
| wolfspraul | looks 'too good' is a tough argument to make | 19:54 |
| wpwrak | wolfspraul: (regarding the best email client) | 19:54 |
| wolfspraul | but I will keep your feedback in mind and pay attention when I test the next image... | 19:54 |
| wolfspraul | maybe all console/ncurses apps should have a common theme or 'hint' that they are console based? | 19:55 |
| kristianpaul | yeap ! | 19:55 |
| kristianpaul | snownews is tricky i think is console app but the icon make you think other thing | 19:55 |
| kristianpaul | ah yes, thats newsbeuter style | 19:56 |
| kristianpaul | mutt logo is actually a dog btw | 19:59 |
| kristianpaul | snownews have right logo | 20:00 |
| kristianpaul | interesting | 20:00 |
| kristianpaul | or at least webpage favicon | 20:02 |
| kristianpaul | any way, just saying :-) | 20:02 |
| kristianpaul | he i love this logo http://wiki.mutt.org/mutt.gif | 20:03 |
| kristianpaul | Int'l shipment release !! | 20:08 |
| kristianpaul | i hope thats good, sounds good in spanish | 20:08 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: are you aware of fedex procedures? | 20:09 |
| kristianpaul | "El envío internacional fue liberado" means it passed customs isnt? | 20:09 |
| wolfspraul | yes normally that means it's released from customs | 20:11 |
| wolfspraul | very good :-) | 20:11 |
| wolfspraul | although I have to say I never once had a customs problem in Colombia | 20:11 |
| wpwrak | kristianpaul: passed customs. next, it should go to the local distribution center, and very soon thereafter (typically within an hour), on the delivery car | 20:15 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak: sure, i already pay customs ;) | 20:20 |
| wpwrak | oh, how did you do that ? normally, fedex pay and you then pay them | 20:23 |
| kristianpaul | hehe | 20:23 |
| kristianpaul | i call | 20:23 |
| kristianpaul | fedex webpage is slow | 20:24 |
| kristianpaul | i pay them | 20:25 |
| kristianpaul | (fedex) | 20:27 |
| wpwrak | maybe their payment procedure differs from country to country | 20:28 |
| kristianpaul | sure | 20:29 |
| kristianpaul | if dont pay they dont move a finger | 20:29 |
| kristianpaul | so this time i call soon and pay first to avoid delays.. | 20:29 |
| kristianpaul | this people is so lazy.. | 20:30 |
| wpwrak | and what will you be getting ? | 20:30 |
| kristianpaul | MM1+, Nannote (for a friend) microSD -> 100mil header breakout cable, Scope meter !!! | 20:31 |
| kristianpaul | i hope pick it tomorrow if the package deliver to Cali (i worh there) but deliver is set to Buga, and they SLOW DOWN all up to 2 days because they dont cover intermediated cities... | 20:32 |
| kristianpaul | s/worh/work | 20:32 |
| kristianpaul | DHL do cover intermediate cities but i guess is expensive | 20:33 |
| wpwrak | (lots of stuff) wow ! btw, i think the device you'll get is called just "scope", not a "scope meter" | 20:34 |
| kristianpaul | ah ok | 20:34 |
| wpwrak | (complicated delivery) hmm, seems quite limited indeed | 20:34 |
| wpwrak | DHL and fedex should have about the same prices. but i don't know if they charge extra for remote locations | 20:35 |
| kristianpaul | DHL is cool, they deliver the wikireader to my mother at her office with their OWN | 20:36 |
| wpwrak | i had some bad experiences with DHL. stuff getting stuck at customs and dhl being very unhelpful about it. | 20:37 |
| kristianpaul | fedex uses a third party to deliver to city where i live, i dont like that | 20:38 |
| kristianpaul | hmm | 20:38 |
| kristianpaul | well UPS is the other choice | 20:38 |
| kristianpaul | but thats luxury here | 20:38 |
| kristianpaul | ah, scopemeter is a hand oscilloscope? | 20:42 |
| wpwrak | yup | 20:42 |
| wpwrak | the one you're getting is a little bigger :) | 20:42 |
| kristianpaul | oh, of course i have a multimeter ! | 20:42 |
| kristianpaul | *meter > hand then? | 20:42 |
| kristianpaul | ;) | 20:42 |
| kristianpaul | hmm snownews looks promising, i'll keep an eye on it | 20:42 |
| kristianpaul | Hilbert Transform C implementation... | 20:46 |
| --- Fri Jan 14 2011 | 00:00 | |
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