#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-01-13

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: offrss and some depends pakcages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1c605fe01:53
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: timidity, MIDI files player http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/49ec91801:56
kyakdoes anyone know if Ben has a backup battery (or capacity?) for HW clock?02:37
kyaki noticed it is reset to start of epoch when Ben is _fully_ discharged02:37
xiangfu_kyak: no backup battery for HW clock.02:48
kyakxiangfu_: ok, thanks02:51
kyakthough Ben can usually live throught the night without external power supply, i sometimes forget to connect it to laptop in the morning :)02:52
kyakthen i find it blacked out02:53
kyakmaybe i can make it produce sound signals via cron when the battery level is low02:53
wpwrakroh: (sanded) good. i was already getting a little scared by the powers of your laser cutter :)02:53
kyakthis would be cool02:54
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: fixed section display not correct in ben nanonote http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/91d3fea04:22
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: update http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f07d35504:33
wpwrakinteresting. this is a complete ben: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110112/04:46
wpwrakand this is just the PCB: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/04:46
wpwrakstill need to get rid of the "mountain", but it seems that lcm may also play a role in making things a little messy04:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: I introduced the cmdline patch on the kicad list, and someone replied. so that's a start...05:09
wolfspraulwhat I need to do now is to move to the latest kicad version first.05:09
wolfsprauldo you mind if I just pick the latest and see whether it builds? (forward-port the patches)05:09
wolfspraulhmmm. thinking about this maybe we should decouple the use of KiCad at Qi, and trying to upstream the cmdline patch.05:10
wolfspraulI could make a subdirectory in kicad-patches, like kicad-patches/upstream05:11
wolfspraulthen work there to bring the patches into an upstreamable format05:11
wolfspraulyeah I think that makes more sense than trying to sync this task with our own use of KiCad05:11
wolfspraullet me know if you disagree...05:11
wpwrakgoing to the latest sounds good to me. always better to stay close than to try to delay the inevitable for too long06:11
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes but I think I need to decouple the upstream patches from the ones we are using.06:11
wolfspraulthere will be feedback, and I have to rearrange patches etc.06:11
wpwrakif the latest version looks good with our designs, then we should update the version we generally use as well06:12
wolfsprauland I may need to uptick very frequently06:12
wpwrakanything else is just confusion ;-)06:12
wolfspraulthat will be a mess if it's the same base we are building our 'daily use' KiCad from06:12
wpwraksure, doesn't make sense to update every five minutes while merging06:12
wolfspraulI got another quite encouraging reply on the list, so now I guess I'm obliged to actually do something :-)06:12
wolfspraulat least it seems the KiCad community is functioning, that's good06:13
wpwrak(checking the list) haven't caught of for weeks ...06:13
wolfspraulsure, I will just try to get this upstream, then unsubscribe06:13
wolfspraulunfortunately it's quite a bit of work, oh well06:13
wolfspraulhacking codes is far easier than communicating, understanding, and reaching consensus06:13
wpwrakwell, the reactions are good so far. communication seems to be working ;-)06:17
wpwrakhmm, so much about using a "clean" clock :-( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/06:25
wolfsprauloh wow, that's a lot worse than before :-)06:27
wpwrakit does show that the chip seems to prefer a sinusoid clock, though. that's useful information.06:30
wpwraki kinda wonder why going from a complete ben to just the main pcb improved things so much, though. for comparison, here are yesterday's results (full ben): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/06:30
wpwrak(i had to go to the bare pcb because the board wouldn't fit into the 8:10 slot in the case anymore)06:31
zrafaMauro_R: wpwrak : technology : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiJeHHGqSSw08:36
Mauro_Rlet me see ...08:36
Mauro_Rjaja :-) it's the last technology ... ecologic ....08:40
Mauro_Ryou must keep safe of don't burn your parts ;-p08:40
lekernelburning wood isn't that ecologic... and btw steam explosions are dangerous08:41
lekernelafaik they were the main problem that prevented the development of the steam engine at the beginning08:42
Mauro_Rlekernel: I'm sure that it's more ecologic than the batteries ...08:45
wpwrakzrafa: (bike) cool ! ;-)10:12
lekernelmaybe, maybe not. I haven't done the math, so I won't jump into saying which is more ecologic. it's not an easy question10:17
lekernelbut it sure is more dangerous than batteries10:18
wolfspraullekernel: I mentioned our emi tests to Adam, he was very happy to hear that such a complex board passed on most tests right away.10:18
wolfspraulwhen I described the one failed esd/field test to him, he asked in which area the sink was, but I told him we were too lazy to track that down, going for the whole metal sheet instead10:19
lekernelexcept that maybe DIY batteries might done the same way as this steam engine, i.e. with open acid and nasty chemicals just waiting to spill on you when you fall :)10:19
wolfspraulwe suspect it may be the dram area, right?10:19
lekernelwolfspraul: yeah, probably10:19
wolfspraulI don't want to do random layout changes in rc3 though, that sounds riskier to me than just going with the metal sheet for now10:19
lekernellaziness is good. gets things done fast10:20
wolfspraulone day if someone has time and energy, that person can track down the sink more precisely...10:20
lekerneland attaching a metal shield to the DRAM alone can also be more expensive and complicated than the whole sheet10:20
wolfspraulsure I'm not complaining. the metal sheet is the right approach now, not risky layout changes.10:20
wolfspraulwell we could try to make changes in the layout10:20
lekernelmetal sheet is only a few tens of cents, and simple assembly...10:21
wolfspraulbut it will be hard to make the right changes there that actually fix the issue, and be without regressions too10:21
wolfspraulyes yes :-)10:21
wolfspraulwe are on the same page10:21
wolfspraulI am just telling you about bringing Adam into this.10:21
wolfspraulno layout changes in rc3 to try to fix this potential dram esd/field sink issue10:21
lekernelno, sure not10:22
wolfspraulyou could add extra copper to the pcb10:22
lekernelbut we may want to fix the boot problem as early as rc310:22
wolfspraulit would not be too unusual in adam's experience. just fyi. we will not do it, no worries :-)10:22
lekernelthe pcb is already full of copper10:22
wolfspraulyes, agreed10:22
wolfspraulwe are on the same page10:23
wolfspraulat some point I need to decide the size of rc310:25
wolfspraulI'm thinking 50-10010:25
wolfspraultough decision again10:25
wolfspraulI think we have to be brave and believe in the product :-)10:25
wolfspraulI will start sourcing a few things already, anything with lead time > 4 weeks.10:26
wolfsprauljust fyi10:26
Mauro_Rlekernel: acid, nasty chemicals ... also, solid batteries are less eco than burn wood or coal ...10:26
Mauro_Rlekernel: but I understand your point, burn wood isn´t good enough ...10:27
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add a new theme http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9186e3711:20
lekernelwpwrak: are the openmoko gerber files available somewhere?11:29
lekernelI can't find them11:29
wolfspraulnot available11:30
wolfspraulyeah sounds like dark age from our perspective nowadays :-)11:30
wolfspraulas some of my last official function at Openmoko, I released netlist, board outline and a few other small things under a cc license, to help jumpstart gta02-core.11:31
wolfspraulbut the full GERBER files, or PADS Layout files, were never published11:31
lekernelamazing that project still got so popular11:34
lekernelno features, lots of bugs, little openness...11:35
wpwraklekernel: only partoally available - the outside layers11:35
wpwraklekernel: it was still the most open at its time ...11:35
lekernelprobably has to do with the average hacker's interest for communication networks :)11:36
wpwrakthat too :)11:36
kristianpaulthe case was finally open isnt?11:37
wpwrakkristianpaul: the CAD files have been published, yes11:38
Action: kristianpaul wonder how usable those are11:38
wpwrakkristianpaul: me too ;-)11:38
wolfspraullekernel: it was popular for 2 reasons imho11:41
wolfspraulone was the time of the announcement11:41
wolfspraulthe Symbian dark age11:41
wolfsprauldon't forget, this was _before_ the iPhone, before Android11:42
wolfspraulI would have killed someone to get out of this Symbian hell.11:42
wolfspraulI was working in the smartphone industry, and had been tortured by Symbian suits for years.11:42
wolfspraulthere was a lot of anger built up there, and Palm Treo was only partially able to benefit from that11:42
wolfspraulso the promise of an 'open' platform was wildly welcomed11:42
wolfspraulnowadays the iphone and android platforms are considered the 'open' ones, with 100k+ apps etc.11:43
wolfspraulso that was the first reason11:43
wolfspraulannouncing an open phone platform in late 2006 was just perfect11:43
wolfspraulsecond reason was gross brutal over-promising11:44
Jay7bad that no one software stack was succeeded11:44
wolfspraulback then I was clueless so I couldn't tell how bad it was11:44
wolfspraulbut today I know :-)11:44
Jay7LiMo seems failed11:44
Jay7MeeGo is half-life11:44
wolfspraulit's like I make an announcement today that Sharism Ltd. will ship a competitor to the Airbus A380 in May this year.11:44
wolfspraulso OM had a history of again and again and again over-promising11:45
wolfspraulagainst all reason, almost insane11:45
wolfspraulover-promising will always give you some popularity first :-)11:45
wolfspraulthose were the 2 reasons for me 1) timing 2) over-primising11:45
qbjectI had no idea, when I acquired an ebook of Gibson's Zero History to read on my BNN, that it would feature a Neo so heavily.11:47
qbject(Just started reading it.)11:47
wolfspraulNeo in fiction, maybe that's where its actual natural habitat was from the beginning...11:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, sharism vs. a380 is exaggerating a little :) with a better hw team and a more realistic approach for the software, i think things could have turned out much better11:55
wpwrakwolfspraul: and of course, management that is a lot less fond of u-turns :)11:55
wolfspraulwpwrak: I stand behind sharism vs. a38011:57
wolfspraulit was just gross, really.11:57
wolfspraulthere is a difference between what you want to do, and what you can do11:57
wolfspraulbut it was also the reason for the popularity, of course11:58
wolfspraulpopularity = delayed frustration11:58
wolfspraulso that's exactly what happened later11:59
wolfspraulanyway we are learning, and still around. :-)11:59
wolfspraulI'm quite optimistic actually...11:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: the dynamics of competition among the companies openmoko was compared with are very tough. so with those comparisons, it never had a chance, from day 1.12:00
wolfspraulPalm tried the same thing with the Pre, they invested ca. 400 million USD, and even that was not enough.12:00
wolfspraulto get into that league, you need multi-billion USD investments, and most importantly you need very strong partners12:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, i was thinking more of the technical side - make a device that works properly, hw and sw. i think that would have been feasible.12:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe the competition would then have trampled openmoko anyway12:02
wolfspraulyou need scale, rock solid partnerships12:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeha, no idea how/if it could have scaled12:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: of course, had openmoko been successful in making the first usable open phone, maybe the partners would have come on their own12:05
qbjectI'm not using one any more, but my partner is certainly suffering through waves of scalability problems from Peek, Inc.12:06
qbjectEvery time their marketing is successful, their infrastructure shudders.12:08
wpwrakthe "mountain" is rather persistent12:16
wpwraknow i tried it with an external antenna. not much of a change. then with a cable straight to the usrp (having a bit of trouble keeping the power down without changing the gain)12:17
wpwrakhm, looks better with lower gain. here it is.12:20
wolfspraulyeah just wanted to say - even with external antenna looks similar12:21
wpwrakyup. so it's not over-the-air self-interference12:22
wpwrakstill don't entirely trust the clock. maybe i'll try a board with a crystal.12:23
wpwrakbut first a bit more power bypassing12:23
wpwrakthere's also an interesting change between the complete ben (with lcm) and just the main pcb. the latter has a lot less noise. it could be just some field distortion caused by the extra metal objects, of course.12:25
wpwrakalright. some more unlikely causes ruled out.12:46
kristianpaulI would suggest the following:13:01
kristianpaul-1 =>  0013:01
kristianpaul-0 =>  0113:01
kristianpaul+0 => 1013:01
kristianpaul+1 => 1113:01
kristianpaulwpwrak: ^^^^13:01
wpwrakaha !13:01
kristianpaulhum.... I am not entirely sure -0=+0. I would say that +0>-0. Remember13:02
kristianpaulthat the point is to use as much info as you can13:02
kristianpaulfrom fabrizio13:02
wpwrakmaybe it's time to ask sige ?13:02
kristianpaulhmm i want have something working with satellites at least before ask13:03
kristianpaulor ask for 6-8 bits ADC... ;)13:04
wpwrakwell, you can pick one interpretation and just work with that. it shouldn't fail too badly if you're wrong13:04
kristianpaulmy trouble now is converting imaginary data to real..13:06
kristianpauli need read more13:06
wpwrakah, entering the joyful part of signal processing ;-)13:08
wpwrakthis looks like a step in the right direction. last two entries on http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/13:51
wolfspraulindeed, slowly though. interesting stuff.13:57
wpwrakintersting ... as soon as i connect the scope - on either side of the DC-blocking cap (!), the clock collapses :-(13:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: (slowly) yeah, every single decibel puts up a fight :)13:59
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added cad/Makefile to automate svg2pdf and dxf2png http://qi-hw.com/p/m1/72c2bda17:04
kristianpaulnew gmenux theme is nice, but... some apps icon tell more than you can expect from a command line/ncurse interface.. talking from eye candy perspective19:29
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you mean they look too good?19:53
wolfspraulwhich ones in particular do you have in mind?19:53
kristianpaulyes too good19:53
kristianpaulsdvc may be19:53
kristianpaulno more19:53
wolfspraulhah, with mutt you picked the wrong one.19:53
wolfspraulI think it's the best email client in the world, the icon cannot possibly look too good :-)19:53
wolfspraul(just kidding)19:53
kristianpauli use mutt19:53
kristianpaulah ok19:53
wolfspraulif the icons are misleading, that's not good. I didn't look at them one by one yet, but I like that things look better now.19:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: couldn't agree more :-)19:54
kristianpaulsure looks good19:54
wolfspraullooks 'too good' is a tough argument to make19:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: (regarding the best email client)19:54
wolfspraulbut I will keep your feedback in mind and pay attention when I test the next image...19:54
wolfspraulmaybe all console/ncurses apps should have a common theme or 'hint' that they are console based?19:55
kristianpaulyeap !19:55
kristianpaulsnownews is tricky i think is console app but  the icon make you think other thing19:55
kristianpaulah yes, thats newsbeuter style19:56
kristianpaulmutt logo is actually a dog btw19:59
kristianpaulsnownews have right logo20:00
kristianpaulor at least webpage favicon20:02
kristianpaulany way, just saying :-)20:02
kristianpaulhe i love this logo http://wiki.mutt.org/mutt.gif20:03
kristianpaulInt'l shipment release !!20:08
kristianpauli hope thats good, sounds good in spanish20:08
kristianpaulwpwrak: are you aware of fedex procedures?20:09
kristianpaul"El envío internacional fue liberado" means it passed customs isnt?20:09
wolfspraulyes normally that means it's released from customs20:11
wolfspraulvery good :-)20:11
wolfspraulalthough I have to say I never once had a customs problem in Colombia20:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: passed customs. next, it should go to the local distribution center, and very soon thereafter (typically within an hour), on the delivery car20:15
kristianpaulwpwrak: sure, i already pay customs ;)20:20
wpwrakoh, how did you do that ? normally, fedex pay and you then pay them20:23
kristianpauli call20:23
kristianpaulfedex webpage is slow20:24
kristianpauli pay them20:25
wpwrakmaybe their payment procedure differs from country to country20:28
kristianpaulif dont pay they dont move a finger20:29
kristianpaulso this time i call soon and pay first to avoid delays..20:29
kristianpaulthis people is so lazy..20:30
wpwrakand what will you be getting ?20:30
kristianpaulMM1+, Nannote (for a friend) microSD -> 100mil header breakout cable,  Scope meter !!!20:31
kristianpauli hope pick it tomorrow if the package deliver to Cali (i worh there) but deliver is set to Buga, and they SLOW DOWN all up to 2 days because they dont cover intermediated cities...20:32
kristianpaulDHL do cover intermediate cities but i guess is expensive20:33
wpwrak(lots of stuff) wow ! btw, i think the device you'll get is called just "scope", not a "scope meter"20:34
kristianpaulah ok20:34
wpwrak(complicated delivery) hmm, seems quite limited indeed20:34
wpwrakDHL and fedex should have about the same prices. but i don't know if they charge extra for remote locations20:35
kristianpaulDHL is cool, they deliver the wikireader to my mother at her office with their OWN20:36
wpwraki had some bad experiences with DHL. stuff getting stuck at customs and dhl being very unhelpful about it.20:37
kristianpaulfedex uses a third party to deliver to city where i live, i dont like that20:38
kristianpaulwell UPS is the other choice20:38
kristianpaulbut thats luxury here20:38
kristianpaulah, scopemeter is a hand oscilloscope?20:42
wpwrakthe one you're getting is a little bigger :)20:42
kristianpauloh, of course i have a multimeter !20:42
kristianpaul*meter > hand then?20:42
kristianpaulhmm snownews looks promising, i'll keep an eye on it20:42
kristianpaulHilbert Transform C implementation...20:46
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