#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2011-01-08

wpwrakzrafa: (opkg) ah, thanks !00:23
wpwrakzrafa: (audio player) i felt a bit like a first-time vi user :)00:24
kyakxiangfu: hi05:48
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: plplot: package svgalib driver and demo programs http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/55a6dd506:03
wpwrakxiangfu: heya ! i may have found another bug in usbboot ! :)06:14
wpwrakxiangfu: when i follow the jlime install instructions (on my x86-64), the flashing of u-boot returns an error, and the byte patterns usbboot shows are indeed different.06:16
wpwrakxiangfu: now, when i use usbboot in interactive mode instead with -c, everything works06:16
wpwrakxiangfu: here are command and error: http://pastebin.com/nepWJHSm06:18
wpwrakxiangfu: the install instructions i used are here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/JlimeDownloadsAndInstallation06:19
wpwrakxiangfu: i've observed it with xburst-tools versions 201012 and 20100706:19
wpwrakxiangfu: my pc is x86-64 running ubuntu "lucid"06:20
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: gnuplot-gfx: fixed VGA color palette (grey lines need to be brighter) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/72e12d006:39
xiangfuwpwrak: thanks for report , I will look into it tomorrow :)06:53
zrafawpwrak: when i used gmu for the first time I felt the same.. because all were using it happy08:13
zrafaand I just tried to exit but I did not find the proper key or menu option :P08:14
zrafawpwrak: and ldd needs bash IIRC, so you will need to install it if you have not yet08:15
qi-bot[commit] kyak: mplayer builds smartly depending on PATENTED flag http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/adf4c0e08:18
wpwrakzrafa: (ldd) okay. still have to try it. i solved the problem i was trying to debug with ldd already, so i didn't try to install ldd. it's on my mental to do list, though ;-)08:20
kyakzrafa: btw, it's Alt+q, as mentioned in gmu help ;)08:29
wpwrakkyak: i tried Alt-Enter and it exited08:43
wpwrak(of course, maybe it didn't really works and it just crashed. you never know with those computers :)08:44
wejpGmu never crashes :P08:46
wpwrakmaybe it's a solipsist. solipsists never die - it's just the universe that ceases to exist ;-)08:47
bartbesit has always been alt+enter afaik08:47
bartbesand it lists that in the 'status bar'08:47
zrafakyak: ah.. well, it is alt+enter on jlime.. BTW, is not wejp the gmu author? he also said alt+enter08:48
wejpyes, i am. but as it caused so much confusion i changed it to alt+q in the new version08:48
wejpin the old one it is of course still alt+enter08:49
zrafawejp: ( it caused so much confusion i changed) ;-)) a lot more of confusion08:49
wejpbut you can of course map it to something else, if you want08:49
wejpESC or whatever ;)08:49
zrafawejp: yeah..08:49
zrafathat is great08:49
wejpit is a simple config file :)08:50
kristianpaulESC !08:50
zrafakristianpaul: "press any key to exit"08:50
wejpi thought about using escape, but then i thought it is so easily pressed by mistake..,08:51
kristianpaulthats true08:51
kristianpaulwejp: what is the easy way of increse font size?08:52
wpwrakESC !!08:52
zrafawejp: btw.. would you like to do a similar video player?.. I mean, similar to gmu but for playing videos on nn. I have the engine of a theora player.. which is not mine, it is a very stupid way to modify the theora example player which comes into theora libs.08:52
wejpkristianpaul, using another theme, there is one included with gmu with a much larger font for the text, you could try that08:52
kristianpaulwejp: there are more themes?08:53
zrafawejp: it just needs a GUI. I added into jlime on qi that player with a simple fileselector.08:53
wejpzrafa, maybe, what i will probably not do is include video playback capability in Gmu, but another program with similar controls.. maybe08:53
kristianpaulmay one simpler (no playlist, easy play of files)08:53
wejpkristianpaul, yes, and you can also create our own if you want to08:53
kristianpauli always get confused to play a file is enter in mode and "a! in other08:54
zrafawejp: yes, I am talking about another program, but similar look&feel08:54
kristianpaulok wejp08:54
wejpoh, and if anybody of you wants to create another theme for Gmu, i would really appretiate it :)08:55
zrafawpwrak: I added the touch /etc/shadow to the items to add into myrootfs (when some day some of us write it using jlime repo for nn) :)08:57
wpwrakzrafa: great, thanks  !09:14
kristianpaulAES will be nice for private chat, or voice..09:58
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: octave: put liboctave into /usr/lib; fix (most) timestamp warnings http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e7a8a4410:50
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: plplot: make svgalib based video mode work somewhat. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e18876310:50
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: plplot: fix/reimplement color setting in linuxvga driver http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/9f8755210:50
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: octave: use plplot as plotting driver, if available http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cf3da2010:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: not sure if it matters much. it may be faster to do the encryption/decryption on the cpu10:54
kristianpaulhmm true10:54
bartbesso does llvm run on the ben?11:53
lekernelwhat do you think of "low cost multimedia reconfigurable computer" ?12:55
lekernelif(geek) return "low cost multimedia reconfigurable computer"; else return "interactive vj station";12:55
wpwrakdoes "low cost" really describe it ?12:56
lekernelif you compare it to other S6 systems, yes, and we are working to lower it12:57
wpwrakyes, if you compare to other solutions that take an expensive approach :)12:57
lekernelthere aren't others :)12:57
wpwrakbut who said a "reconfigurable computer" needs an fpga ?12:57
wpwrakof, for that matter, a "multimedia computer" :)12:58
lekernelanyway, I can just try to put those keywords on the website and see if it improves traffic/sales/feedback12:58
rohlekernel: nah. its not low cost and calling it computer pulls the wrong crowd (clueless people)13:15
lekernelwhat do you compare it to, to say it's not low cost?13:16
lekerneland btw, making people give a shit is a lot harder than dealing with a few lusers, so if this tagline appeals to some of them but otherwise works, success!13:17
wpwraksettop boxes. also, "multimedia computer" suggests "reduced function". so, cheaper than a pc.13:18
wpwrakand pc here would mean the kind derived from a netbook, i.e., already quite cheap.13:19
lekernelok, scrape multimedia maybe ...embedded?13:20
wpwrakyou seem to be very concerned about not drawing enough attention. why is this ?13:20
wpwrakeverything is embedded :) also, embedded << pc. ergo "low-cost" would be something like the ben or cheaper13:20
lekernelthere's also "reconfigurable", which is the important thing. today, reconfigurable computers are expensive13:21
lekernelwhy do I want to draw a lot of attention? because I want to live off this product so I don't have to work an uninteresting job13:22
lekernelsimple :)13:22
lekernel(though doing marketing/advertisement is pretty boring as well... but it's a compromise)13:23
wpwraki don't think "low-cost" describes it well unless you're very specific about what's inside. and not a lot of people will understand the price structure even then.13:27
wpwrakwill people understand that "reconfigurable" means FPGA in this case ? my netbook is also reconfigurable - vi /etc/whatever ;-)13:27
wpwrakah, the old money thing :)13:27
wpwrakbut do you think the attention it's getting if falling behind your expectations right now, or is it more an abstract/future concern ?13:27
wpwrak(marketing boring) dunno ... learning how to seduce people to buy your stuff doesn't sound too bad to me :)13:27
lekernel"reconfigurable computing" is a specific concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconfigurable_computing)13:28
wpwrakalright, but how many people know that ? e.g., i didn't. i knew that "reconfigurable hardware" -> FPGA13:30
lekernelmh, let's see13:31
wpwrakhow about Open Hardware ? will people who would be attracted by FPGAs also want to look at anything that is "Open Hardware" ? if yes, you don't need the FPGA/reconfigurable in the headline13:31
lekernelmaybe I can just put a meta keyword tag and see how much traffic/feedback that brings13:31
wpwrakof "Reconfigurable Open Hardware" if you want, but that already gets a bit long13:31
lekernel"open hardware" is more or less synonymous with arduino atm, and similarly trivial electronics13:32
wpwraki don't think "lay out the bait and wait" is going to work13:33
wpwrakhmm, dunno. but i'm not unbiased enough to be a useful reference13:33
lekernel(marketing boring) let's say programming crazy things like mm soc or llhdl is more suited to my nerdy taste13:34
wpwrakalso, if people's expectation of "open hardware" includes the arduino, that doesn't have to mean that it couldn't also include the MM1. "multimedia" or VJ would already contradict that it's something as simple as an arduino13:34
wpwrakmaybe they'd expect a propeller. of course, if they know what the propeller is, they'd probably have a look, just out of curiosity if someone actually figured out something useful to do with it ;-)13:35
wpwrakback to the marketing strategy, i don't think you can expect people to just find you by accident. you need some multipliers, be it the classical press, the internetized para-press, or outright viral marketing13:36
lekernelyup, I know13:37
wpwrakfor the classical press, you need a press release or you have to be where they're looking for news.13:37
lekernelbut keywords work too, and are actually how google makes money :)13:38
wpwrakdid you speak to any press at 27c3 ? would it even have been likely for them to notice you ? or were the infrastructure problems too overwhelming ?13:39
wpwrakyou mentioned fosdem. will you give a talk there ?13:39
wpwrakhow often do you idly google around for relatively general expressions ? :)13:39
wpwrake.g., do you google for "reconfigurable computer" often ? or more like "xc6s45" ?13:40
lekernelputting those keywords and measuring the resulting traffic is an unbiased way to know this13:41
wpwraki'm also not sure the end user focus is a very efficient approach. it may work, but you could also try to draw the attention of companies who would be willing to finance further work.13:44
lekernelwith NDA and such? :)13:45
wpwrakso it's not only places where the press goes but also places where people go who would be interested in novel technological ideas13:45
wpwrakyou can make your requirements clear13:45
wpwraki know you don't like to emphasize linux, but there are a number of linux events that do get a fair amount of attention. e.g., you could consider having a shared presentation with someone working on the kernel.13:50
wpwrakit would be even better if your story could include an element where software work influenced the hardware design, e.g., an optimization of some item or a new feature.13:50
wpwrakbecause that would be something truly unique. not just "linux ported to yet another cpu", but "cpu optimized on the fly for linux"13:51
wpwrakof course you probably have that already on the multimedia side. so perhaps you could just work that angle.13:51
zrafalekernel: I know at least one guy in Argentina who would buy Milkymist machines :).. He (and friends) writes moldeo (moldeo.org) and they do business as well with graphics on real time for performances, etc..14:18
zrafatheir code is open source.. and they do things like http://www.moldeointeractive.com.ar/productos/55 or http://www.moldeointeractive.com.ar/productos/5614:19
zrafalekernel: sorry for the spanish web sites.. but you can see the videos at least :P14:20
zrafaah.. they have english web sites as well.. cool14:21
kristianpaulFree CPU multimedia computer...14:45
kristianpaulreconfigurable CPU14:46
kristianpaulyou cant reconfifure your cpu using vi wpwrak ! :-)14:47
kristianpaul"cpu optimized on the fly for linux" <-- awesome :-)14:47
lekernelmaybe but it isn't. actually, the linux port pretty much sucks14:48
lekernelzrafa: but they're developing their own platform, aren't they? did they tell you they were interested?14:48
kristianpaulsure sure14:48
kristianpaulzrafa: moldeo, nice !14:48
kristianpaulmusic is very familiar :-)14:49
kristianpaullekernel: now you can run mupdf on M1, are you planing use the computer it self for next presentations?14:56
zrafalekernel: they did not tell me anything yet because I know them but they do not know me :) well, I know their work, and I met a couple of years ago them. But I just will let them know your work at least. They are really fans of all this kind of technology (video, sound, real time..) so I guess that they would like to meet some open hardware for that14:56
zrafaI met= I met them14:57
kristianpaulI dont know nobody  (may be interested in multimedia) yet in Colombia, but i was invited to a event in wich i can show M1 working all day !14:58
kristianpaulIt is called LabSURlab14:58
wpwraklekernel: (linux) yeah, probably needs to get a bit better for this. so, something to keep in mind.15:05
lekernelwhy do you insist that much on linux...15:06
kristianpaulBecause we use it everyday?15:06
wpwraklekernel: (linux) well, for one thing it's a fully featured operating system. if you want your SoC to be general-purpose, that's about the only sane choice you have15:09
wpwraklekernel: (linux) second, i was specifically referring to PR opportunities. linux is a well-established channel for "open" stuff. so if you can present your work at a linux event, you may be able to reach a significant audience.15:10
wpwrakwell, a major linux event15:10
kristianpaullinux.conf ?15:12
wpwraklinux.conf.au ? yes, that could be a good place15:12
wpwraklinux symposium is a bit too close, time-wise15:13
wpwraklinuxtag and linux kongress may be convenient in terms of travel15:13
lekernelfixing all the linux problems is probably way more painful than fixing the remaining flickernoise/rtems/whatever software i'm using atm and marketing that thing directly to VJs :)15:16
lekernelit's sooo easy to say "improve the linux port" :)15:17
wpwrakfor a single-function device, that approach is fine. but do you really want a single-function device ? also, can you keep on maintaining it ? it does have usb host, so people will come with peripherals you didn't anticipate. do you tell all of them to just bugger off ?15:18
wpwraki can see rtems as an intermediate step. sort of a proof of concept. make the device work, see what it can do. but then, take the essence of what you actually need and let others worry about the 99% that's the boring rest.15:19
lekernela single function device is better than no device at all :)15:20
lekerneland if I used linux, there would be no device at all NOW15:20
lekernelbecause I would have been so slowed down by its issues that I couldn't do anything else15:20
wpwrakas i said, intermediate step. dunno where you'd be with a 100% linux approach. maybe you would have something usable now, too. maybe not.15:21
lekerneldefinitely not15:21
lekernellinux is horrible15:21
lekernelespecially if I used X as you recommend :)15:22
wpwrakthere's a ton of things you can do without x :) so if you insist of scribbling directly into your frame buffer or whatever, linux won't stand in your way :)15:23
wpwrakof course, if you do have X, there's a gazillion of applications that you don't have to worry about anymore. they just run. even if perhaps slowly.15:24
lekernelyeah, after you have fixed all the related gcc, libc, and autotools problems - and there are tons of them15:24
lekernelplus a few random instability bugs in the kernel, every now and then...15:25
lekerneljust to spice up the whole mess15:25
wpwrakwell, you yourself said that these things get better if you're on a GNU system. does Linux or, like rms pronounces it, GNU/Linux count ? :)15:25
wpwrakkernel instability is bad, agreed15:26
lekernelnot on LM3215:26
zrafalekernel: what do you use as compiler for development? and What do you use as OS on your desktop for development?15:28
kristianpaulno no dont ask that !15:28
zrafakristianpaul: I can change the question: which environment is used to build the software for Milkymist? (if there is such environment or building process)15:30
kristianpaulzrafa: boostraping right :-)15:30
lekernelthe only gnu component is gcc. but the fact that's it's the only available compiler for some architectures like lm32 is just sad15:30
kristianpaulis linux a gnu project too?15:31
larschurd is the gnu kernel15:31
lekernelthe gnu equivalent of linux is the hurd :)15:31
lekernelwhich says a lot about GNU :)15:32
lekernelat least the linux kernel works :)15:32
kristianpaulok, how receptible are llvm people to support your work?15:33
lekernelthey don't care15:33
lekernelthey think apple is cool15:33
zrafakristianpaul: I wanted to ask because I would guess that it is not the same to build software with gcc if you run it on different OS. For example, if you build software with gcc on a propietary software OS, it could give a different output than if you build your software with gcc on an open source OS.15:34
larscthey are paid by apple15:34
kristianpaulgood point15:35
lekernelzrafa: huh?15:35
wpwrakzrafa: heard of the M$ conspiracy, too ? ;-)15:36
zrafawpwrak: no, I have not. But it could be possible to do interesting things inside a propietary software running binaries (like gcc)15:38
zrafainteresting things: no for us surely15:39
lekernelzrafa: wtf?15:40
wpwrakzrafa: i'm sure the M$ anti-milkymist division is working night and day on this in their secret underground base in antarctica. stuxnet was just a first test balloon.15:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: guess he's still a bit jet-lagged ;-)15:42
zrafawpwrak: haha.. well, anyway milkymist software is not built using gcc on M$ anyway, RIGHT?15:44
kristianpaulno no15:44
kristianpaulthats scary zrafa !15:44
lekernelwell you could do it quite easily15:44
wpwrakzrafa: you were right ! he _is_ in league with satan ! :)15:45
lekerneloh well15:46
lekernelat least the windows people won't come up with ideas like using X11 :)15:46
zrafaI could do another users question: if I buy a Milkymist machine, is the software inside open source software built on a propietary OS?15:47
wpwrakwindows ... when you're tired of choosing the lesser evil15:47
zrafauser question=newbie Milkymist user question15:48
kristianpaulanyway, M1 is out,  thats good, more people will look at it, thats needed *reflesh* for the project15:48
lekernelzrafa: no one would ask that question... anyway, there are people building it on mac os, but the binary images I release are built on an open source OS...15:49
lekernelrunning on proprietary hardware however :)15:49
zrafalekernel: that is cool (built on an open source OS).. propietary hardware.. well, no many choices I guess15:50
zrafalekernel: now we have a goal to port linux to milkymist! ;)15:50
zrafalekernel: open hardware to build the milkymist software on an open source OS ;)15:51
lekernelpeople having this goal aren't that hard to find15:51
lekernelpeople doing it after they endured a couple of gcc segfaults and similar problems are a bit more difficult to come by15:52
wpwrakis the gcc port being maintained ? i.e., if you hit a compiler bug, is there someone who will fix it ?15:53
lekerneland there are _way_ more simple software tasks in this project, but it's rtems or vj stuff15:54
lekernelwpwrak: even when I send a patch, and even for simple things, they would question it15:54
kristianpaulwpwrak: (gcc port being maintained) i dunno15:55
wpwraklekernel: the patch or the underlying problem ?15:55
kristianpaullekernel: sure they question you're not gcc developer :-)15:55
lekernelmore than a month ago I sent a patch so that newlib based compilers would support the hardware divider in the libc instead of using the software emulation everywhere, which is totally stupid15:55
kristianpaulthats normal15:55
lekernelit's still not merged, and all they say is "there's no valid reason for doing this"15:56
lekernelI don't hate the GNUtards for no reason...15:56
wpwrakokay, that's a performance enhancement15:56
wpwrakwe were talking about segfaults15:57
lekernelwell see for yourself15:59
lekernelactually the RTEMS version is the only one somewhat maintained: http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4372616:00
lekernelI wonder what it would take them to merge that patch (comment #8) into the GCC tree and be done with that16:01
lekernelinstead that bug is hanging open for months16:01
wpwraklekernel: (#43807) hmm, open long enough to justify some prodding. also, reducing the file in size would probably help.16:02
larscwell, is there a maintainer for the lm32 part of gcc?16:03
kristianpaulRalf Corsepius  seems to be in Germany, you can contact him personally may be16:03
lekernelhttp://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=43805 same thing... patch, and those conservative bureaucrats don't merge it16:04
larscprobably just nobody cares16:04
lekerneland that was when Jon Beniston was the LM32 maintainer - now it's someone else who cares even less16:04
kristianpaulsee is not  all fault of GNU ;-)16:05
lekernelkristianpaul: result is I'm left with a broken, obscure and messy compiler I can't fix myself and no one cares16:06
kristianpaulsadly yes16:06
lekerneland they call that free software :)16:06
kristianpaulYou're brave for taking all this at your own :-)16:06
lekernelkristianpaul: (ralf) http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4669216:07
wpwrak(#43726) bad. perhaps ping the current maintainer.16:09
wpwrak(#46692) you're too aggressive. his concern may be more of QA than of questioning the feature per se16:10
lekernelQA heh? :)16:10
wpwrakwell, are you the only lm32-* user ?16:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: how was the support for i386 stuff when linux 0.12 (talking about gcc)?16:12
lekernelI think that approximately yes...16:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: pretty good. the linux kernel revealed a lot of bugs, of course. but the gcc folks were very supportive.16:13
kristianpaulJon Beniston for his Microsoft Windows port of Java and port to Lattice Mico32.  <-- http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Contributors.html16:13
lekernelactually it seems some people seem turned down from this architecture (partly) because of the issues I'm describing16:14
wpwraklekernel: well, if you think your upstream isn't cooperating enough, you could also ask that person in private communication what the problem is. if you're indeed the only lm32-*, your own QA should have a lot of weight. if there are others, you may want to find out about them.16:16
lekernela lot of lm32 ports are dead, including the rtems one... when porting to milkymist, I upgraded the interrupt API of the generic architecture code to the latest rtems interrupt system (the previous one was deprecated)16:16
lekernelthis broke the initial port to the original LM32 system (EVR from lattice)16:16
lekernelI contacted the maintainer about that, and he didn't care... his lm32 port was "nothing really serious" :)16:17
wpwraklekernel: ah, never break the origin ;-)16:17
lekernelwell at least the rtems code is manageable. I can fix it when anything breaks without spending inordinate amounts of time16:17
kristianpaulhow long are you planning to support all this fixes?16:19
wpwrakmaybe the gcc lm32 maintainer is also not quite aware of what ports are around and in what state they are. maybe what's missing is a place where the various people interested in lm32 communicate ? a bug tracker is a horrible means of communication.16:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: seems that he doesn't have much of a choice16:21
kristianpaulwpwrak: i know :(16:22
wpwrakkristianpaul: that is, before solving the upstream issue ...16:22
wpwraka second-order question would also be how to get gcc maintainers to play a more active role in supporting lm32 and specifically lm32-mm1.16:32
lekernelcan we replace gcc with llvm? :)16:32
lekernelif we try hard to get compiler developers to jump into this project, at least target the good programmers *g*16:34
wpwrakdig yourself even deeper into a niche ? :)16:34
wpwrakif auto* is bad now, just imagine how much fun it would be with llvm16:35
lekernelat least now I understand better why companies like ARM crack down on open source instruction-compatible processors16:45
lekernelthey must have thrown a crazy sum of money to pay redhat, codesourcery, etc. to get them to fix the gnu stuff and others...16:45
wpwrakmaybe they also enjoy all the pain you have to go through if you're off the beaten path16:46
lekernelyeah, this changed a lot my view on free software and GNU16:46
wpwrakwell, it's always the question of getting enough of the right people interested enough16:47
wpwraksometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard16:48
wpwrakthe more niche you make mm1, the harder it will get. you'll gain more control, but also a lot more responsibility.16:48
lekernelotoh i'm not that impressed by embedded linux16:49
lekernelthe only successful use I've seen of it is openwrt routers16:49
wpwraknow that comes as a total surprise ;-))16:49
lekernelopenmoko, olpc, and, i'm sorry to say, the nanonote all suffer from serious software issues16:50
wpwrakopenwrt are among the smallest, yes. well, if you ignore uclinux and such16:50
lekernelthe only exception is android, but they are only using the kernel...16:51
wpwrakimho, nanonote suffers from a misguided distribution strategy16:51
wpwrakvirtually all the sofgtware development effort seems to go into porting things that already run on the device16:52
wpwrakjust not with openwrt16:52
lekernelsometimes I think I should have just written an ARM clone and throw their C&D letters directly into the trash16:54
wpwrakthe question that i ask myself is, what would people like kyak, david kuehling, and xiangfu do if the "standard" distribution was jlime ? if the answer is "nothing" or "leave", then that's okay. if the answer is "do something new and great", then the focus on openwrt is costing us.16:54
lekernelI don't think they have any legal basis, at least in Europe, it's mere intimidation16:54
wpwraklekernel: yeah, arm should be old enough that the first stuff should be free from patents now :)16:55
wpwraklekernel: remember "look and feel" ? ;-)16:55
wpwraklekernel: well, if you feel bored ... the weekend is still young, and you have an fpga all to yourself ... ;-))16:56
wpwraklekernel: on the legal side, the problem may not be the instruction set per se, but anything else they may be able to dig out when they choose to attack you.16:59
wpwraklekernel: you may use some implementation technique they've patented more recently17:00
lekernelbtw, Verilog is software, no?17:00
wpwraklekernel: something that's not essential for implementing the instruction set, but just something you happen to use. or that a judge can be convinced to see that way.17:00
wpwraklekernel: (verilog = sw) not sure what the legal view of that is17:01
wpwraklekernel: if i was them, with a multi-million interest in crushing that little upstart geek, i'd spend a bit of money to try to get the courts to prove my view - or to enjoy watching him run out of funds, whatever happens first17:02
urandom__wpwrak is there still a reason for openwrt on nanonote? (other than booting a bit faster and having multiple distros is better than having one)17:03
wpwraklekernel: of course, you never know where they may draw the line17:03
wpwrakurandom__: may reasons. 1) wolfgang had a bad experience with OE and doesn't want to touch it again. 2) so much effort has been put into openwrt, it's hard to change. 3) openwrt should consume a little less memory than jlime.17:04
wpwrakurandom__: of course, regarding 3), one could argue that, instead of building a shrine around the lack of memory, one could try to move forward and make a model with more memory.17:05
wpwrakurandom__: alas, that may be easier said than done17:05
urandom__i really cant imagine the huge waste of human labor done cause of tousands of linux distros with basically the same goals, fucking stupid17:10
wpwrakwell, some have different goals and approaches17:13
wpwrakso a bit of diversity is good17:14
wpwrakurandom__: ah, and 4) jlime-nanonote isn't really supported at the moment. that's of course also a problem.17:14
urandom__i would prefer to see real diversity, people that try something new17:17
urandom__we just have posix, tons of tons of unix clones, thats the whole world of free operating systems, other story but same problem17:19
wpwrakurandom__: well, where would you want to try something new ? in the kernel ? in user space ? everywhere at the same time ?17:27
lekernelurandom__: http://aros.sourceforge.net/17:27
lekernelurandom__: http://genode.org/17:29
lekernelwpwrak: you might need to broaden your horizons :)17:29
lekerneland probably others I can't think of right now...17:30
lekernelbut yes, as wpwrak says, they're "niches", which doesn't necessarily mean they aren't worthy17:30
lekernelah, http://haiku-os.org/ too17:31
lekernelactually I think haiku or aros could look nice on the NN17:32
urandom__well there are some interesting os projects lekernel but they dont get much attention17:33
lekernelI tried haiku and aros some time ago and they actually work17:34
lekerneland they're much lighter than a GNU/X/Linux setup with the same features17:34
lekernelthe biggest problem with aros was instability17:35
wpwraklekernel: yeah, there are tons of experimental/niche/research systems out there. i mean, it's okay as a hobby. you can now have your own kernel and your own whatever. in your parent's generation, they had their own garden. they didn't expect the whole world to come there visiting either. so it's cool.17:36
lekernelpff, stupid17:36
lekernelso no one should innovate in operating systems, ever17:36
lekerneljust use the same good ol' crap17:36
wpwraklekernel: no, that's not what i'm saying. linux is actually quite open to innovation.17:37
lekernelsure. let's bother Linus again about switching to a microkernel approach, for example :)17:37
wpwraklekernel: also, if you have a more extreme point to make, perhaps you really do need to create your own universe.17:37
wpwraklekernel: but it's unlikely that you will find a large following, become the next linux or whatever.17:38
wpwraklekernel: well, if "microkernel" is all you can think of when it comes to innovation in the kernel, ... ;-)17:38
wpwraklekernel: interesting things in linux: RCU, the traffic control subsystem, /sys and udev, block scheduling algorithms, cpu scheduling algorithms,17:39
urandom__microkernels are awesome, you can updating parts of your kernel without rebooting, or when a part crashes it doesnt do harm to your whole system17:39
wpwraklekernel: the network driver architecture, and so on17:40
wpwraklekernel: with loadable modules, you can update part of your kernel without rebooting17:40
urandom__you mean urandom__17:41
larscwpwrak: and there is ksplice17:41
wpwraklekernel: there are also more or less developed process state dumpers that would allow you to pretty much pick up where you left off after a reboot. i think their lack of development is a testament to their limited real-life utility. (and yes, those things can go pretty far. i did some work there myself, although more because of intellectual curiosity)17:42
wpwrak(urandom) oh, sorry :)17:42
wpwrakksplice ... scary :)17:43
urandom__speaking of interesting os konzepts, http://code.google.com/p/loper/ , nothing to see yet but has some interesting thoughts and links17:43
wpwrakthere was also significant work on the file system side: ext3/4, reiserfs, fuse17:43
wpwrakif you're looking for things that go a bit beyond the practical, i can suggest a look at my umlsim and tcpcp. all abandoned by now, but they were fun at their time :)17:44
lekernelsure, but no fundamental OS concepts17:45
rohhow much work is something like the lm32 cpu?17:45
wpwrakmemory mamnagement and scheduler also saw their changes17:45
urandom__wpwrak do you think people will still use linux in 50 years? still will use C and C++ for programming , that would be very sad17:45
rohor rather.. implementing something like arm in vhdl?17:45
wpwrakrcu is pretty fundamental17:45
wpwrakroh: verilog :)17:46
wpwrakurandom__: why would that be sad ?17:46
wpwrakurandom__: C is a very nice language17:46
rohor verilog.. dont care.. i just have no clue how much time it needs a developer to 'implement a cpu down'17:46
lekernelfor a simple risc like arm7 or lm32 probably a month or two17:47
wpwrakurandom__: can't predict what will happen with linux in such a large time frame. it could collapse under its own weight. but maybe not.17:47
wpwrakroh: s/month/year/  for the rest of us :)17:47
rohlekernel: i know a very good hardcore arm developer and some guys interrested (and imho qualified) for cpu design.. so i just do the mind-experiment what it would take to develop a verilog cpu which is like 'arm-esque' but not patent encumbered or anyhow compatible and doing a linux port for it. like... using all the good ideas which companys often can't because of 'fear' about new platforms17:48
urandom__wpwrak collapse under its own weight, that the point, that why we better look at microkernels for example17:48
lekernelthen if you want fancy things like out of order execution, jump predictors, superscalar execution, etc. it can become really complex17:48
rohlekernel: and how much work is stuff like an mmu which linux would need to run properly?17:49
wpwrakurandom__: it's not a monolithic vs. microkernel issue but a question of managing the development process. you have exactly the same issues with a microkernel.17:49
lekernelnot that much for the simplest mmu17:49
rohlinux iss still very slim for what it can do since most code isnt used all the time or at once. in the end the codebase has stuff in it which will never exist on all systems (or can't)17:50
lekerneli.e. with a fully onchip-SRAM-based TLB with all TLB misses to system memory handled in software17:50
rohlekernel: means given one has a 'known good' cpu design its like 3-4 month doing the verilog for a cpu which linux could run halfway decent fast on? (given that somebody does the port)17:51
wpwrakdidn't old PPC do it like this ?17:53
lekernelyeah, maybe17:53
lekernelbut if you want to try out "good ideas" it takes time17:53
Action: urandom__ cant help but constantly think about lisp maschines when he hears "FPGA"17:53
lekernelalso you're also subject to Murphy's law and in case of really bad luck that intermittent instability issue that takes you 6 months to fix17:54
rohlekernel: sure. i an not saying one needs to start such a project now17:54
rohi just realize lately that there seems to be demand for a not completely low end foss cpu design which is fun even when running a linux on.17:55
lekernelwhy not start yet one more effort?17:56
lekernelthere's lm32 which is almost good enough for that (not counting the gnu problems)17:56
lekerneland tons of failed projects17:56
rohif you thinkg lm32 can be fixed easier than that.. sure.. that would be the way17:58
lekerneljust find someone working at redhat or codesourcery who believes in that... and you could probably get most of the gnu issues fixed17:58
rohmy thinking was in the line of 'adapt a basic concept which already has a well working port' and redo all the non-freely useable parts..17:58
rohwhich would break abi, api, everything. meaning resuling in a cloned port modified beyond any compatibility17:59
wpwraklekernel: roh was just echoing your own thoughts from a while back :-)17:59
wpwrakroh: the amount of breakage you environ sounds a little scary, though18:00
rohe.g. i know that gcc and linux uses some feats of cpus heavily and depends on them being fast, while some arent really that important (while they are still in the cpu and complex). so use the most simplest approach and only do the parts which are important for linux18:00
wpwrakhmm. seems that i have an AC leakage problem in my cnc setup. sigh. will technology ever stop being a nuisance ?18:01
rohwpwrak: sure. yet the result would solve the patent problems, and the 'not even en par even with arm9' issues18:01
larscroh: exaclty my thoughts as well18:01
rohwpwrak: opto-isolation?18:02
wpwrakroh: laptop, usb hub, and mill each have their own supposedly isolated supply. at least one of them is leaking. i'll explore when the current job is done.18:02
rohsorry for being a bit naive there.. just doing this mind experiment since the current soc, cpu etc situation with the industry is annoying ;)18:02
Action: roh doesnt like the industries non-reuse-of-good-ideas development18:03
wpwrakwell, patents help innovation, don't they ? ;-)18:03
rohwpwrak: do the steppercontrollers have isolation from the pc stuff?18:03
rohwpwrak: *kick* ;)18:03
wpwrakroh: the mill is a closed device, like a printer. no idea what isolation is inside. the interface is rs-232. DB25 connector, if you can imagine that :)18:05
wpwrak(patents) instead of standing on the shoulders of giants, we nowadays merely dance around them, trying not to step on their toes18:06
rohwpwrak: sure.18:10
wpwrakgrmbl. the ac leak is in the mill's supply. 19 V, 2.1 A. this will be fun to find.18:36
wpwrakah no. common laptop voltage, it seems. good :)18:37
wpwrakalright. no more milling until monday then.18:40
kristianpaulwpwrak: taling about GSM Networks, in Argentina, autotirezed freqs are  PCS1900 and GMS850? or is following europe regulations maybe?..18:41
wpwrakthe last job produced a funny result. i did two boards at a time and forgot to check the depth settings. the 2nd basically doubled the depth, and milled right through the pcb acting as a support and into the table. amazingly, nothing broke.18:41
wpwrakit's us-style, so 800/190018:42
kristianpauloh, ok18:42
steve|mUS uses GSM-800 and PCS190018:43
steve|meehrm.. GSM-85018:43
steve|mkristianpaul: http://www.worldtimezone.com/gsm.html18:44
kristianpaulhe venezuela are lookier :-)18:46
steve|mkristianpaul: ah, there's what I wanted to show you initially: http://www.coveragemaps.com/gsmposter.htm18:49
kristianpauloh thats better :-)18:50
wpwrakkyak: does openwrt let you set options depending on other packages ? e.g., if readline is enabled, then use --with-readline in bc, otherwise don't19:00
bartbeshmm I guess it should be possible19:01
xMffyou can try this: CONFIGURE_ARGS += $(if $(CONFIG_PACKAGE_libreadline),--with-readline)19:02
xMffyou'll need a conditional dependency as well then,  DEPENDS:=+CONFIG_PACKAGE_libreadline:libreadline19:02
bartbeswhy the change in syntax?19:03
xMffits not change, just an extension19:03
xMff+foo:bar  -> only depend on bar if foo is enabled19:03
xMffthats for opkg later on19:04
bartbesthat's passed on straight to opkg?19:04
bartbeswell then, why not use the if you used for CONFIGURE_ARGS for DEPENDS as well?19:04
xMffnot straight, it gets translated to the appropriate metadata then19:04
bartbesor the other way around19:05
xMffbecause the foo:bar syntax has another effect19:05
xMffit ensures that bar is a build time dependency19:05
kyakwpwrak: just make it depend on libreadline, why all these difficulties?19:06
xMffwell for this particular case it makes no sense19:06
wpwrakkyak: if you do it cleanly, upstream may accept it :)19:06
xMffyou usually do it when packaging something with plugins, where foobar-mod-mysql should enable mysql or similar19:06
xMffbut only when enabled19:06
wpwrakxMff: great, thanks !19:07
bartbeshas anybody managed to compile gettext-full?19:07
kyakwpwrak: don't really care. they can go on ripping off things19:07
kyakbartbes: there is gettext in openwrt-packages19:07
xMffthey = me19:08
bartbeskyak: gettext-full19:08
bartbesgettext is pretty much a dummy19:08
kyakbartbes: it IS gettext-full19:08
bartbesI mean the package19:08
bartbesnot the lib..19:08
bartbesthe package gettext-full doesn't compile19:08
qi-bot[commit] Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas: cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-gps-sdr/b48d9a919:09
qi-bot[commit] Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas: 2k buffer for now http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-gps-sdr/a7c1c9319:09
qi-bot[commit] Cristian Paul Peñaranda Rojas: Comand line basic support, FPGA map is now wider http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-gps-sdr/a4cacdf19:09
kyakok, you don't understand me. then i'll just answer your question: use this patch to make it build http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/gettext/patches/160-localname.patch19:09
kyakbtw, it's not accepted upstream19:10
xMffnot true, its ony my list, just haven't gotten around to test it19:10
bartbesI just updated19:10
bartbesgettext is a *stub*19:11
bartbesit doesn't even have a lib19:11
bartbes(or well, it doesn't install one)19:11
kyakwell, yeah.. to bad, because we haven't been able to make a normal build since the beginning of December19:11
kyakfirst because of gettext, then libiconv and gettext19:11
wpwrakxMff: would you happen to be kyak's openwrt upstream ?19:12
bartbesgettext-full doesn't compile against libiconv-full even19:12
xMffyes, someone was on an update spree without fixing the usual fallout19:12
wpwrakxMff: (upstream) kewl ! we found you after all ! ;-)19:13
wpwrakxMff: (update spree) you're talking about the libiconv issue ?19:14
kyak:) time to sleep..19:14
xMffthe issue for the whole iconv / intl issue is a bit.. complex19:14
xMfferm *reason for19:14
xMffit all begun with an attempt to update libtool...19:15
wpwrakxMff: yeah, i saw the argument go back and forth, without getting the impression that both sides understood each other fully :)19:15
xMffI noticed that there is a need for switchable intl and iconv implementations19:16
xMffhowever I've not yet worked out a way to support that reliably19:16
xMffmy goal is to couple that to the existing native language support global build option we already have19:17
xMffwhich is right now nothing more than "--disable-nls" for configure19:17
xMffwhich is ignored by ~90% of the packages anyway these days19:18
xMffthe reasoning for stripping intl and gettext was that the liberal use of autoreconf brought those dependencies in for many packages where they didn't exist previously19:19
wpwrakif i understand things right, then some packages will not build at all without the *-full versions ?19:19
wpwrak(i don't even know what autoreconf is ... :)19:19
xMffmost should build now, the gettext is still stubbed (no *.mo handling etc. at all) and the mini iconv now supports the same range of charsets the full iconv does19:19
wpwrakso kyak's worries should be over soon19:20
xMff"full iconv" was - despite its name - also stripped19:20
wpwrakheh :)19:20
bartbesyeah, it misses iconv_open, iconv and iconv_close19:21
bartbesand I would say those are pretty.. critical19:21
xMffbartbes: that is gnu madness, somehow they use libiconv_open, libiconv and libiconv_close and then alias those with #define19:22
wpwrakbtw, how is the effort around the ben perceived by the openwrt "core" team or whatever you have ? is making it a more general distribution considered a good direction or are there concerns, e.g., because it may overload the configuration process ?19:22
xMffbartbes: if a wrong iconv header is picked up it falls apart19:23
bartbesfrom what I've heard they're mostly ignoring 'us'19:23
wpwrakbartbes: that's what kyak says. let's see if there are more sides to this story :)19:23
xMffwell I assumed larsc and/or mirko are the openwrt liaison here19:24
xMffwe're aware of the nanonote developments but I'm not personally involved with it (yet)19:25
wpwrakxMff: not sure how active they are in that role. didn't actually know larsc was an openwrt liaison. he's a man of many talents :)19:25
kristianpaulIs kind of worryingng read this " the other hand side we already have enough overriden packages, and perhaps more to come (like binutils, for instance https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/8603)."19:25
Action: kristianpaul just saying19:25
wpwrakxMff: the people i see most active around here are kyak, david kuehling, and xiangfu19:25
xMffso I smell a communication issue ;)19:26
bartbesactually I remember larsc helping me get a patch upstream19:26
bartbesI wonder what it was for..19:26
bartbesoh I remember, ncurses19:27
xMfftbh, the openwrt is, probably like any project out there, understaffed, especially with regard to maintaining the packages feed. I spent a few weeks cleanung up libtool fallout in packages I don't even know what they're good for19:27
bartbesI fixed most of the efl packages19:27
bartbesand I got them running19:27
bartbesbut gettext is holding me back from compiling enlightenment itself19:27
bartbesand that sucks19:27
wolfspraulxMff: in which way do you want help to reach you? write up tickets? send patches?19:28
xMffwhat is needed to accomodate the NanoNote / xburst needs are some changes in the build infrastructure19:28
xMffwolfspraul: definitely patches19:29
xMffwolfspraul: ven maintainership19:29
wolfspraulif it's clear what you want, and you or other openwrt folks have consensus that that's what's good for openwrt, it should be possible to organize help for you19:29
xMffright now we need some way to solve the gettext and intl issues19:29
wolfspraulwhat slows things down sometimes seems to be how to resolve conflicting priorities19:30
wolfspraulxMff: well there are several people in this channel who want to help with that, the question is how, and whether their help is appreciated on your end, or causes more problems to you19:30
xMffpersonally I wonder why we maintaing the desktop feeds in openwrt at all19:30
wolfspraulyou have a much broader view, we are very NanoNote specific here, so I assume what we think is 'great' others may very well find quite disturbing :-)19:31
xMffso it might sense to give up openwrt mini versions of packages that are only used on "capable" targets anyway19:31
wolfspraulso for example this latest bc thing, a configuration parameter that will enable line editing and edit history19:32
xMff*make sense19:32
wolfspraulit's a very easy thing to enable or disable19:32
wolfspraulbut what are the priorities for people? who decides?19:32
wolfspraulenabling it will make the binary bigger (I would think), yet make the app more usable (to a very large degree some people would say)19:32
xMffthe one who does the work19:32
wolfspraulok but at some point someone decided to leave this disabled for bc19:33
wolfspraulthat may have been intentional, or someone just disabled everything that was not very clear at that moment19:33
xMffyes, our agenda is to throw everything out that is not really required19:33
wolfspraulsure, but maybe the person deciding what is not required is not actually using the app?19:33
xMffa majority of openwrt users is wroking with free space in the 900k-1400k range19:33
wolfspraulsure sure19:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: regarding bc, i think enabling readline iff readline is already enabled in the system is likely to be considered the right choice. not sure how to handle this with packages, though.19:34
wolfspraulI totally understand that, and I very much like this philosophy in openwrt.19:34
wolfspraulit's a great value that was built up over time.19:34
xMffI just try to explain the perspective19:34
wolfspraulof course, fully understood, and appreciated19:34
wpwrakxMff: so where does the stuff you're throwing out go ?19:34
wolfspraulI try to understand the process19:34
wolfspraulwe run into a little app like bc19:34
wolfsprauldo you know bc?19:35
wolfspraulit's a simple calculator19:35
xMffyes, I know bc.19:35
wolfspraulwe find some config options to be really bad (let's just assume this now, I don't mean this particular line editing thing)19:35
wolfspraulwe can always make a new package, but that increases maintenance overhead, and we would rather help working towards a stronger openwrt in general19:36
wolfspraulor write up a ticket?19:36
wolfspraulsome people seem to like tickets a lot19:36
xMffI think we're not at the point where tickets would really help19:36
xMffsome fundamental directions should be worked out first unless we want to discuss architectural stuff in the tracker19:37
wolfspraulhow do you find the maintainer of a package?19:37
xMffeasy: is there is MAINTAINER variable, you know the maintainer. If there is none, the package is unmaintained (kept compilable only)19:37
wolfspraulI think it's hard to discuss some specific thing about some package if the person to talk to us not using that software himself.19:37
wolfspraulhow do you avoid this?19:37
xMfffor new package submissions we urge the authors to do maintainership19:38
wolfspraulok thanks that's helpful!19:38
xMfffor others the original packagers might be long gone19:38
wolfspraulfrom 132 packges in openwrt-package, 3 have a MAINTAINER entry :-)19:38
wolfspraulso that gives me 129 little todo items to work on...19:39
wpwrakbetter than nothing ;-)19:39
wolfspraulxMff: if someone runs into a package without MAINTAINER entry, does this mean he can just adopt this package and fix/improve it in the way he wants?19:40
xMffimho, all graphic software should be kept in a spearate feed19:40
wolfspraulif so, where/whom would one to contact to put onself in as the MAINTAINER19:40
xMffwolfspraul: yes. it is a heavily used package, there might a clash of interests19:40
wolfspraulwould one have to...19:40
xMffhm, I'm lacking words today19:40
wolfspraulsure, understand. but I first try to understand the general principle.19:40
wolfspraulI mean that's a pretty clear concept19:41
xMffso right now we're looking out for maintaners19:41
wolfspraulno MAINTAINER, and you think you can improve something - ask to be put in as MAINTAINER, and then submit the patch right away, and it will be applied19:41
xMffbasically anyone can ask for maintainership on a specific package, usually there is also the usualy "send a few patches, show interest etc."19:42
xMffto see the quality of contributions19:42
wolfspraulbc has no MAINTAINER entry19:42
xMffyes, so you could ask to maintain it19:42
wolfspraulhe :-)19:44
wolfspraulI just looked at the 978 OpenWrt packages I have on my system19:44
wolfspraul71 of them have a MAINTAINER field in the Makefile19:44
wolfspraulthat means 907 don't19:44
xMffyes, those accumulated over the years19:45
xMffwe also have no overview over what is actually used and what not19:45
xMffI suppose we could check the repository access logs19:45
wolfspraulalright. so what I've learnt now: MAINTAINER field is significant.19:46
wolfspraulif it's not there, just assume you are the only one and request that your patch gets applied19:46
wolfspraulin general - submit patches to mailing list (for packages with and without MAINTAINER field)19:46
wolfspraulif a patch is sent to the mailing list, and nobody replies, what to do then?19:47
xMffkeep pinging19:47
xMffdon't overestimate the manpower19:47
wolfspraulI don't, I just try to understand in which way contributions are welcome.19:47
wolfspraulso it helps the overall project19:47
wolfspraulotherwise I can just say give me write access everywhere and all my problems are gone.19:47
wolfspraulbut then maybe others will have new problems quite soon :-)19:47
wolfspraulxMff: keep pinging how? also on the mailing list?19:48
wolfspraulalright :-)19:48
xMffor maybe drop by in #openwrt or #openwrt-devel19:48
wolfspraulare you hanging out here in irc sometimes?19:48
wolfspraulyes I think that's already happening too19:48
xMffwell I used to hang around here until a few months ago19:48
xMffthen got distracted with other stuff19:49
wolfspraulno problem it's great you are back now :-)19:49
wolfspraulI have a clear goal already - MAINTAINER field in the missing 129 packages in openwrt-packages :-)19:50
wolfspraul3 out of 132, that's even worse than the 71 out of 978 in the rest...19:50
wolfspraulso let's try with the bc patch whether enabling line editing is welcome or not19:51
xMffthere are a couple of facilities in the buildroot that aid with packaging multiple variants of the same package19:51
xMffwe currently use that for hostapd for example19:51
wolfspraulthe only thing I'm worried about is if there are people who just say 'no' in principle, to every feature they don't understand, even if they don't use the app.19:51
xMffsomething like that would be needed for packages where small and full featured versions make sense19:51
xMffothers don't make sense to be stripped down at all, like the xorg stuff19:52
wolfspraulnot that I would complain about that kind of attitude either, but it would cause a problem for us, because in many cases we have someone who is really passionate about a particular app, and then emotionally feels like "if abx is not enabled that's really really stupid" etc. etc.19:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: i wonder if this may be a moment to consider the general strategy. if openwrt upstream prefers most of the little nanonote things to be kept separate, the maintenance burden remains on the side of the qi-hw community. for potentially quite a lot of packages. is this a desirable outcome ?19:52
wpwrak(i'm assuming here that existing communication problems can be solved, etc.)19:52
wolfsprauland that may clash with someone who has to take care of 500 packages and is just pissed about all this small feature fixes19:52
xMffwolfspraul: thats definitely not the case19:53
wolfspraulok great19:53
wolfspraulwell I learnt a lot - thanks! let's see how it goes :-)19:53
xMffthere are three types of things from my pov:19:54
xMff- packages that are only relevant for capable targets - those can be kept in a spearate feed, lowering the merge overhead for everyone19:54
xMff- packages that have users on small targets - we need build variants here to be able to turn of extra features19:54
xMff- stuff that needs support in the build infrastructure, this one must be worked out with the rest of openwrt to not break existing stuff19:55
xMffthe whole desktop and multimedia stack is giving me headaches in particular as it requires a farily complete autotools infrastructure19:56
xMffand we're not quite there yet19:56
wpwrakxMff: is this something where you want to go, or would you be happier if there was no urge to enter this direction ?19:57
wpwrakxMff: (of course, it could just be an interesting intellectual exercise per se :)19:58
xMffeven if I do not use the affected packages I'm more than willing to hack on the build infrastructure support19:58
xMffwe now have native autoconf, automake, m4, libtool etc.19:58
wpwrakgreat, thanks !19:58
xMffwhat is missing is the i18n infrastructure, it is totally underdeveloped on openwrt19:59
xMffwe neither have build support for it nor do we package stuff like translation files19:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: the thing I personally care the most about, for my own NanoNote, is boot time. the 12-14 openwrt image I am using, and very happy with, boots in ca. 17 seconds.19:59
wolfspraulthat's acceptable, but I hope we can bring it down. 15, 13, 10, etc. it's hard.20:00
wolfspraulthe discussion with xMff was for me to understand how we can help openwrt get better in general20:00
kristianpaulMy router still taking about ~15 to boot.20:01
xMffanother dream of mine is supporting versioned dependencies and conflicts in buildroot20:01
xMffrecent opkg supports that20:01
wolfspraulfeedback may come in the right or wrong form.20:01
wpwrakxMff: btw, are there other active "desktop" targets for openwrt than the nanonote ?20:02
xMffwpwrak: hmm, afaik not. well you have always generic x86 which can host anything, but the nanonote is the first target really made for desktop20:02
wolfspraulthat good old thing :-)20:03
kristianpaulWhat about dingo?20:03
xMffyes, but I always percived that one as proof-of-concept quality20:03
xMff(within openwrt)20:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: I had a great meeting today with Chitlesh Goorah from Fedora/Free Electronic Lab20:04
wolfspraullearnt a lot about ASIC design flow, file formats, etc.20:04
wolfspraulone thing that stood out was he said synopsis/cadence/mentographics all use tcl scripting20:04
wolfspraultcl seems to be the de-facto standard in that scene, so I will take a quick look whether, if we do more cmdline/scriptable stuff in kicad, we can do something towards tcl as well?20:05
wolfsprauljust an idea, I need to check it out...20:05
xMffso if you guys could provide me with a list of packages that are affected by iconv and intl, I'll see how hard it would be to make them switchable20:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: my enquiry is two-pronged: 1) find confirmation/contradiction for my gut feeling that openwrt may not be the best long-term solution for the nanonote, and 2) in case you stick with openwrt as the "standard" distribution, how to make things move smoothly20:05
wpwrakwolfspraul: tcl may just be a historical choice20:06
wolfspraulyes but it seems to be a standard there, well that's what I've learnt at least20:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: probably back when scripting became interesting (and it would become interesting for all of them at about the same side - can't fall back wrt the competition), tcl was the scripting language of choice20:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: nowadays, it would probably be python20:07
kristianpaulHmm Quartus from Altera uses tcl i think  lekernel can cofirm?20:07
wolfspraulhe said that's exactly what they all hate :-)20:07
wpwrakxMff: i think we'll have to wait for kyak & co. to come back for that list20:07
wolfspraulanyway, I'm just listening. I will find out more.20:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: they all hate python ? heh :)20:08
wolfspraulxMff: yeah we have to wait for kyak who for sure will have some apps20:08
xMffwpwrak: I think it will boil down to some $(LIBICONV) / $(LIBINTL) macros which contains appropriate cflags, ldflags and then we need to annotate all packages with that20:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: I don't know what to say about 'long term solution'20:09
wpwraklet's make it lisp then. that's timeless :)20:09
wolfspraulmy brain doesn't function like this, I'm so practical20:09
kristianpaulwolfspraul: did Chitlesh Goorah metioned cases of study for FEL in the industry?20:09
wolfspraulwe have reflash software, we have openwrt images, jlime images, debian images20:09
wolfsprauleverything is in flux, hopefully improving20:09
wolfspraulif I try to get something done, and right in front of me, on my ben, it won't work with openwrt, I might just try jlime and see whether that works.20:10
wolfspraulthe things I care about are stability / avoiding regressions / test plans / boot time.20:10
wolfspraulthat's the 'long term solution'20:10
wolfspraulhave a good test plan, avoid regressions, make updating easy, strictly control boot time20:10
mthwolfspraul: we've got Tcl scripting in openMSX (MSX emulator) and we have some mixed feelings about it20:10
mthwe're very happy about the scripting itself, but the Tcl language is a pain when you want to do more complex things20:11
wpwrakxMff: sounds reasonable. when generating packages (ipkg), one would then have to choose one or the other at build time, correct ? i.e., one couldn't pick at install time (not sure if there would be a lot of demand)20:11
mthit's fine for simple things though20:11
wolfspraulwhat other scripting options are there?20:11
mthlua, python, javascript20:11
wolfspraulkristianpaul: not really, only universities.20:11
xMffwpwrak: there will be a menuconfig flag in global build settings which says "I18N implementation: stubbed/full" or similar20:12
mthpython might be harder to embed than for example lua20:12
xMffthat then is propagated down to all packages20:12
wolfspraulsynopsis is most closed in his opinion, cadence doesn't care about the hobbyist stuff, mentorgraphics wants to point people who use pirated mentorgraphics software to free tools20:12
mthblender has python embedded though, so it is possible20:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: (long term) i suffer each time i see someone happily announce the port of something that's almost certainly been in jlime for a decade already20:12
wolfspraulyes and no. it's like comparing gentoo and debian.20:13
wolfspraulwhy don't we try to reconfigure jlime a little :-)20:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's inefficient channeling of resources. imagine what these people might do if they didn't spend all their energy on plumbing.20:13
wolfspraulyou are comparing apples and oranges20:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: (reconfigure jlime) what do you have in mind ?20:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: (apples/oranges) maybe. hard to tell.20:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: sometimes you have people who just want to do something useful. if they see a great lack of packages, they tackle that.20:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: if they'd see some other, perhaps more interesting issue, they would go after that20:14
wolfspraulopenwrt is a tool to build custom images from scratch20:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: of course, it all depends. harder/different issues may scare people away who would feel comfortable with adding packages to openwrt.20:15
wolfspraulfor people who like custom images20:15
wolfspraulopenwrt is not a meta distribution, imho20:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: but then, having a richer "standard" distribution may also attract more people and may encourage more contributions20:15
wolfspraulto me (correct me if I'm wrong), it's like embedded gentoo (I never used gentoo so I'm guessing a little)20:15
wpwrakxMff: (metaflag) okay. keeping it free from too much headache :)20:16
wpwrakmth: (lua) haven't played with it yet20:16
wpwrakmth: (python) embedding it is quite popular and python-c bindings are relatively straightforward20:17
xMffI found Lua very easy to work with, especially when interfacing with C20:17
xMffbut then I only wrote like ~500 LoC of python in my life20:17
xMffand the lua library ecosystem is.. hm a bit sparse20:18
wolfspraulcalling it a day, 'night20:18
xMffdefinitely no batteries included :)20:18
wolfspraulxMff: thanks for your advice and offers of help!20:19
wpwrakxMff: (sparse) which may be good or bad ;-)20:19
xMffnp. night20:19
xMffwpwrak: yeah, at least you don't have to deal with bloat or frameworks of which you don't need 90%20:19
xMffand on x86 there is luajit which offers remarkable performance20:20
mthI think lua fills the same niche as Tcl, but is more modern and better designed20:21
mthpython is a full programming language that can be used for scripting, rather than a scripting language20:21
xMffyeah, that about sums it up I think20:21
wpwrakoften enough, i just design my own scripting language. it's fun and keeps the blood flowing :-)20:26
wpwrakbut lua definitely seems like something worth looking at20:26
xMffreminds me on my failed attempts to implement a javascript interpreter in perl20:27
wpwrakthat sounds evil ;-)20:27
wpwrakspeaking of which ... i should still have a latex processor in perl somewhere ....20:27
xMffit was fun, learned basics something about parsers and stuff like that. Of course I never finished it20:28
wpwrakperl must be one of the most hostile environments for this kind of stuff ;-)20:29
wpwrakwell, /bin/sh would be worse ...20:29
xMffyeah, see libtool :D20:29
wpwrakoh, nice :)20:30
rohi find python a nice language for scripting and see bindings a lot in foss tools20:31
rohits also well suited for integration it seems. (atleast so i am told)20:32
mthI use python a lot for prototypes and for utilities where performance is not critical20:33
rohtcl is ugly and old.20:33
mthI have also written a medium size web app using python and twisted20:33
rohmth: ack. performance stuff should be native.20:33
mthfor text conversion, I got better performance from python than from java, by the way20:34
mthI guess the python libs (especially I/O) are better designed or better optimized20:34
rohthats also how all the tools i know do it. provide some bindings into python for native implemented routines20:34
rohheekscad also uses python for scripting ;)20:34
wpwrak(latex processor) in case anyone is curious: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/t2a.pl20:34
wpwrakyou need to skip things it doens't understand (like most of the header) with %beginskip ... %%endskip20:35
wpwrakerr, %%beginskip20:36
rohif it needs to be very small and embedded i guess lua is the choice (size in ram and resident memory)20:36
rohciscos also still use tcl for scripting... resulting in horrible hacks as soon as people want to do advanced stuff20:36
wpwrakisn't it amazing how completely tcl has died out (except for these odd legacy cases)20:37
rohi think openwrt did the right thing by choosing lua as tier one scripting language. for desktops and such python is imho handier, (and the 5-10mbyte interpreter size doesnt hurt there anyhow)20:37
rohwpwrak: hrhr.. yes.. i mostly know it from legacy and 'techie campfire horrorstories'20:38
rohhttp://wiki.tcl.tk/460 *shiver*20:38
wpwrakoh, you get used to it after a while. particularly if you know lisp :)20:39
wpwrakwhat's a bit annoying is that the usual built-ins always differ a bit between perl, tcl, python, etc.20:40
wpwrakso while i'd consider python a nicer language than perl in general, i find it a lot easier to get small to moderate tasks in perl done, because perl is the first scripting language of that class i learned20:42
rohwpwrak: the most stuff from the tcl examples are between 3 and 10 lines in python20:43
rohwhile having >20 in tcl20:43
wpwrakoh, they all would be just one line in APL ;-)20:44
Action: roh learnt basic.. later awk. and lately (few years ago) python (as much as i need)20:44
rohbut i put asm and C inbetween (and all that other s*) ... still dont like perl (i wish there were ellbow-long rubbergloves for touching code)20:45
wpwrakperl is a great write-only language :)20:45
urandom__python was one of my first programming languages but today i always prefer using lua instead20:46
rohwpwrak: ack.20:46
larsc"why is there no obfuscated perl programming contest? because everybody would win"20:46
rohurandom__: lua is definitively on my list (after getting better in python) .. havent't had a reason to dive in hard to be fair20:46
wpwraki started with basic, then machine code (we didn't have assemblers back then), pascal, assembler, then finally C (but didn't like it at that time), more pascal, then C+Unix, csh, sh, perl, and so on20:47
wpwraklarsc: ;-)))20:47
rohuh. yes.. pascal. that was beween/around x86 asm and c20:48
urandom__lua has tables, they are like arrays but much more powerfull, you can put every type of data in it and mix freely20:48
xMffreal fun starts with metatables20:50
urandom__pretty sad other languages dont offer anything comparable to it, i really dont know any language that does20:54
rohurandom__: i thougt that python is similar there20:55
wpwrakwhat do metatables do ?20:55
rohwith the tuple stuff20:55
xMffits a bit like operator overloading20:55
xMffyou can attach a metatable to an object and have it handle stuff like assign, lower than, equal comparisations etc.20:55
xMffor make stuff callable20:56
mthyou can overload most operators in python, you just have to know which method names to use20:56
mthlike __cmp__, __getitem__ etc20:56
wpwrakah, cool. found this: http://www.lua.org/pil/13.html20:56
urandom__roh nah tuple arent comparable i think, they are ummutable20:57
mthit sounds like a lua table is more like a python dictionary21:00
mtha key-value mapping21:00
xMffyou cna treat it as array though by using only integer keys21:00
xMffor you can make it having an array part and a dictionary part21:00
kristianpaullarsc: i agree !21:09
kristianpaulI have to deal at work with some sofware wich is reconfiguref by perl scripts, thats a PITA when something fails.. and debug is required :/21:09
kristianpaulLua is nice, i think i'll focus more on it as i'm doing with C know, lua seems to everywhere from routers (Lucy is written in lua right?) to network tools (nmap), also window managers (awesome)21:11
kristianpaulpython is cool but not so portable as i wish, i think lua is in the middle between C and python perhaps..21:12
urandom__python is much slower and bloated21:13
kristianpaulhey, i found some stuff for SIE in lua, i'll take a look later21:13
rohyes. if you have small bare metal lua is good. if you got a linux kernel and >=32mb ram and similar flash or more, you can also use python. fast stuff will be native in both (if done right)21:15
kristianpaulroh: i tought you where about to said "if you got a linux kernel and >=32mb ram and similar flash or more, you can also still using lua" ;-)21:16
rohkristianpaul: sure. just more pain.21:16
kristianpaulis lua :_)21:16
rohimho. less bindings.21:16
urandom__roh if you are targeting x86 you can use luaJIT which is a lot faster21:17
kristianpaulah well21:17
kristianpaulthats true21:17
rohin python it feels like everything is there and often already for quite some time. 'well hung' code.. stable apis etc.21:17
kristianpaulI guess python had time with few bindings compared as we know it today21:17
kristianpaulroh: besides that i cant run python on my linksts router unless i add it swap :/21:18
rohin lua i thought about opening a socket and the serial and stopped researching after an hour and hacked up a 20 line python script (also learning the api underways) which is in production use till today in 30 minutes.21:18
urandom__lua has less bindings? sure? i am not21:18
rohkristianpaul: maybe. but you also have to see that lots of linksys routers are 'old crap' now (>5 years old stuff)21:19
kristianpaulpyton for production real stuff? wow, how do you fight against threads?21:20
kristianpaulroh: sure buy i love my crap routers :-)21:20
rohrecent plastic boxes have that much ram and rom that i dont care anymore. but sure. you are right. if it needs to fit into somthing tight and you know what to do... / somebody pays for the extra worktime... ;)21:20
kristianpaulAre so trusty and usefull21:20
rohkristianpaul: i only use the linksys stuff as vlan-switches with ssh managemant now21:20
rohbecame to slow for recent dsl lines21:20
kristianpaulwhat's a recent dsl line in your side of the word btw? (10Mpbs may be?)21:21
roh16/1 adsl2+ is 'normal'21:23
rohone can get vdsl with 25 or 50 mbit down, but that still expensive21:24
Action: kristianpaul is happy with his 1Mb down 500k up21:25
kristianpaulAnyway i jsut replaced my router for a soerkis box, ready to receive adsl2+ someday...21:26
kristianpaulwpwrak: about atusd case, did you find a parametrized way of doing case design?21:26
rohheh.. yes.. got something similar in use here also. a pcengines wrap2c21:27
kristianpaulwhat about atusb too?21:27
rohbasically a pc without fan or keyboard controller on one 16x10cm pcb.21:27
kristianpaulYour molding idea is nice, but on my side i will like to print the case fot the atusd/usb board i hope to buy in some moths :-)21:27
rohwpwrak: how many atusb and atusd boards do you have? i'd like to play around a bit with them trying out some case ideas21:28
kristianpaulroh: to be more specific my router is a soekris and the servr an alix21:28
rohkristianpaul: :) the pcengines stuff is really great hw. rocksolid21:29
kristianpaulroh: parametric is very important, are you good with openscad?21:29
kristianpaulroh: yeap21:29
rohnope. i tried openscad some times, but it was always slow as hell for me and pain to get working (compiletime-brainfuck)21:29
rohhad to build all kinds of libs with broken buildsys from hand (not packaged at all) and fix weird issues to get it working21:30
rohwhy does it need to be parametric?21:30
rohwill the boardsize change so often?21:31
kristianpaulheh, nope but just some time ago i tried do an unoffiacial atempt for a atusd case21:31
kristianpaulI jsut was so messy had to modify by hand the design21:31
kristianpaulAfter i printed it out measure, design, print....21:32
kristianpaulalso wpwrak suguestions..21:32
kristianpaulis a chaos !21:32
rohsince i know how to use it quite well i really like my qcad. reliable tool21:32
kristianpaulya, qcad is nice tool21:33
kristianpaulfor the cnc owners... ;)21:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: (parameterized) not sure ... openscad goes in that direction but i'm not sure if it's really good enough for this21:38
kristianpaulmaybe a script will be enought21:39
wpwrakroh: (#boards) you mean right now ? something like 6 atusd and 4 atusb. all prototypes different from the final ones. some quite drastically.21:39
wpwrakroh: (qcad) ever tried fped for cad work ? :)21:40
wpwrakroh: (parametric) the thing is that *any* change is a pain with non-parametric cad ...21:41
rohwpwrak: parametric only works well for 'simple' stuff in my experience21:41
rohlike 'boxes' .. and then you take the output and add the 'special cases'21:41
wpwrakpovray ? :)21:42
kristianpaulatusd shape is simple i think21:42
rohscripting these all is hard work.21:42
kristianpaulroh: gears too21:42
wpwrakscripting is hard, i agree21:42
rohwpwrak: maybe you can send me some mechanical prototypes as soon as the mechanical size seems stable enough. i have no issues moving lines in qcad.21:42
rohneed to do that anyhow while developing. tolerances and manufacturing is a bitch.21:43
wpwraki wish there was something like fped for 3d ... i tried once to do a few drawings with qcad, but found it so awkward that i then tried to see if i could abuse fped to do this. worked like a charm.21:43
wpwrakroh: (prototypes) okay, i'll try21:44
kristianpaulfped will be nice indeed21:44
wpwrakroh: (tolerances) that's exactly where parametric shines :)21:44
rohwpwrak: yes.. 3dcad is hard... i still hope heeks will solve that gap for me.21:44
rohelse.. there is freecad. and heeks can import the stl and do the cam on it also21:45
kristianpaulheeks is promising, also heekspython21:45
rohdesigning is still hard or atleast difficult with heeks imho.21:45
kristianpaulthe atempt i nade for atusd was in heekscad21:45
kristianpaulroh: lets pay a blender course, after that nothing all will change21:46
wpwrakroh: (prototypes) btw, the layout files (.brd) should give you a pretty good idea already21:47
kristianpaulprint it !21:49
kristianpaulor drill/cut, will be nice experience21:49
wpwrakroh, kristianpaulL: can you print/cut from kicad ?21:51
rohwpwrak: ?21:52
kristianpaulkicad export to dxf?21:52
kristianpauli think i can21:53
rohkristianpaul: blender sucks for cad. it doesnt even have a ruler.21:53
kristianpaulah yes21:53
rohsame as inkscape. designer tools. not technical cad21:53
kristianpauli used the herber from kicad in heeks21:53
kristianpaulwpwrak: but my printer is to 3d too limited for those small things21:54
wpwrakroh: i mean, given a kicad design, can you cut a pcb ? (the outline, not the traces)21:54
kristianpaul2d printer is enought/was in that time21:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: hmm yes, you need about +/-0.5 mm accuracy, better if possible21:55
rohah. and caduntu got renamed librecad21:55
rohit is in essence, a ported to qt4 version of qcad21:55
kristianpaulwpwrak: i have that21:55
rohwpwrak: i have no kicad installed right now in a qi-compat. patched version21:56
kristianpaulremenber the pics from the case atemtps?21:56
rohwpwrak: need to work myself into it first. i know eagle... but also havent done pcbs with it yet.21:56
wpwrakroh: the normal version should be fine as along as it's recent21:56
wpwrak>= ~bzr 268521:57
rohwpwrak: nah.. my build is from 200821:57
wpwrakurgh :)21:57
kristianpaulroh: who needs rules, you cane measure the vector it self :-)21:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah. okay, so you could print the pcb as well :)21:57
wpwrakoff to the chemical lab for a bit ...21:57
Action: roh hates it when he needs to use custom toolchains all the time. that damn unpractical when one uses N instead of 1 computer.21:57
kristianpaulactually i tought do it but never..21:57
rohkicad is on my list of todos...  ;) i just hoped there would be fresher packaged builds21:58
kristianpaulin fedora may be21:58
kristianpaulBuild: (2010-05-09 BZR 2366)21:58
rohhm,. there is a ppa with bzr272022:05
Action: roh is still on karmic22:05
rohadd-apt-repository ppa:paxer/ppa22:07
wpwrakti-tick ti-tick ti-tick ... toner transferring to the 2nd side ...22:24
wpwrakoh, and the witchbrew that's supposed to wake me up in the morning has been in the freezer for quite a while. better not to take that "ice" in "ice coffee" too literal ...22:31
wpwrakstill mostly liquid. good.22:34
kristianpaulwpwrak: how is the process for you pcb in order to join both sides of it?22:35
kristianpaulI really like 2 layer stuff, i think this year i'll try ro get my 0.8 pcb22:35
wpwrakkristianpaul: toner transfer to the first, cover the second with adhesive tape, etch, remove the tape, clean, toner transfer to the 2nd side, tape the 1st side, etch again. done :)22:36
kristianpaulbo you need make holes i guess?22:36
wpwraki now do al the cutting and drilling with the mill22:37
kristianpauldrill with hand tools or your cnc thing?22:37
wpwrakmanual drilling results in too many broken drills as the number of vias goes up22:37
wpwrakall cnc22:37
kristianpauloh nice22:37
kristianpaulI need a cnc22:37
wpwraki'm actually writing a description of the process ... maybe tomorrow i'll finish ...22:38
kristianpaulor a better way of hold th drill :)22:38
kristianpaulnice !22:38
wpwraka cnc mill is something very nice to have :)22:38
kristianpaulwell maybe a tiny cnc , my space is some reduced here22:39
kristianpaulwpwrak: why you dint etch your pcb?22:40
wpwraki do etch my pcbs ...22:41
wpwraktoner transfer is for the etch resist22:41
kristianpauli mean the vias22:41
wpwrakwell yes, i do etch.22:42
kristianpaulhmm, i'll way for you doc better :-)22:42
wpwrak1) mount a bare pcb in the mill. 2) drill all the small holes. 3) mill all the large holes. 4) mill the outline. 5) toner transfer and etching, see above22:43
wpwraknext lab round22:44
wpwrakmission accomplished22:56
wpwraknow ... a little protective tin coating, a bit of scrubbing, and i'm done for tonight ...23:06
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