#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2011-01-06

qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmu: update to 0.7.2, it's need lib speedx http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7fbb60a00:51
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: flite, a small, fast run-time synthesis engine http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cd33c1c02:56
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: ikog.py: using UNPACK_CMD instead of download everytime compile http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f93258c03:50
wolfspraulwpwrak: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/JTAG_Serial_Cable_run_1_for_Milkymist_One#To_be_improved04:53
wolfspraulhere you see some of the pain with those 2 connectors04:53
wolfspraulreally really bad idea to put 2 different connectors side by side04:53
wolfspraul:-)04:53
wolfsprauladamw_: I'm not sure about cutting J5 (fig.10)04:56
wolfspraulfirst we already sold some boards with the full length04:56
adamw_wolfspraul, now there's no chance to change P2 JTAG(on pod) and J6 JTAG(on M1)04:57
wolfsprauland then we would move to a non-standard height and could never find this connector anymore04:57
wolfsprauland people may have trouble connecting other cables to it04:57
wolfspraulyeah it's a mess, just as I predicted :-)04:57
wolfspraulwell we have a chance to bath in a bad idea now, for a while04:58
wolfspraulneed to enjoy that at least...04:58
wolfspraul:-)04:58
wolfspraulso maybe we just leave it as in Fig. 10 right now?04:58
wolfspraulwe just say that is the 'official' way?04:59
wolfspraulmaybe that's the least pain, and we can wait a little, sell some boards, grow the community, and eventually find a better solution for this04:59
adamw_I used standard FTDI TTL-232L-3V3 cable, its wafer is connected well on  my trimmed J5 headers.04:59
wolfspraulwho knows we might even integrate the jtag-serial on m1 one day. I've heard enough people tell me the whole concept of a daughterboard in this case is nothing but stupid.05:00
adamw_actually I tested 100pcs by figure 10. Always...I know it's not good.05:00
wolfsprauladamw_: we declare Fig. 10 to be the official way?05:00
adamw_but I won't push pod too much un-horizontal05:00
wolfspraullike I said sometimes you just have to admit something is crappy. is this crappy? yeah sure it is... that's the best we were able to do for now...05:01
adamw_wolfspraul, if we declare to use Fig. 10, this means they may trim by themselve.05:02
wolfspraulthat's even worse.05:02
wolfspraulthen we risk that people damage their boards, we get returns05:02
wolfsprauleverybody will have a different height05:02
wolfspraulsome will cut too much, some too little05:02
wolfsprauland so on05:02
wolfspraulthat's not a good idea at all05:02
wolfspraulwe need to do the best we can, and then sell our result05:02
wolfspraulalso we need to clearly say what is the official (!) way05:03
wolfspraulif people do their own thing, that's another issue. but they should know what the 'recommended' way is...05:03
adamw_but if people want to use JTAG/Serial pod, must trim to let P2 JTAG(on pod) with J6(on M1) to be well-contacted.05:03
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package: offlineimap, Read/sync your IMAP mailboxes [Python] http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/3fb430205:03
wolfsprauladamw_: you mean fig. 10 is not good?05:04
wolfspraulactually in fig. 10 the jtag does not connect well?05:04
adamw_still connected well while I tested all 100pcs, but I do not suggest this fig. 1005:05
wolfspraulah great :-)05:05
adamw_you can zoom in to to see fig. 10 to see JTAG contact.05:05
wolfspraulso that answers my question - fig. 10 cannot be the 'official' way05:05
wolfspraulcan you find a shorter serial header for future m1 runs?05:05
wolfspraulwe can even rework the ones you still have now...05:06
adamw_I won't gurantee how many times the J6 (on M1) its plastic outlet will be broken.05:06
wolfspraulyou mean with fig. 10?05:06
adamw_yes, you should zoom in the fig.1005:07
wolfspraulbetter not...05:08
wolfspraul:-)05:08
adamw_i am trying to find another shorter J5 for next M1 run05:08
wolfspraulcan you find a shorter serial header for m1?05:08
wolfspraulserial for m1 == j5 ?05:08
adamw_yes05:08
wolfspraulmaybe we can rework the boards you have now too05:08
wolfspraulI want to have one good/official board, with the best result we can produce.05:09
adamw_ha. :) do this later once have orders. :)05:09
wolfspraulI rather hold off on selling the current boards until this is better...05:09
adamw_sure05:09
adamw_yes05:09
wolfspraulno05:09
adamw_agreed05:09
wolfspraulno orders until this is better05:09
wolfspraulthe j5 on m1 is pretty long (standard height I think)05:09
adamw_agreed05:09
wolfspraulbut maybe we can find a shorter there...05:10
adamw_sure if I find then I directly rework.05:10
wolfsprauland still easy to source in the future, hopefully05:10
adamw_hope we are lucky05:10
adamw_you really don't need to worry if J5 is too short that standard wafer(female) can insert.05:11
wolfspraulok05:11
adamw_i used FTDI cable, they are ok05:11
wolfspraulok, so the plan now is to find a shorter j5 asap, and then rework all existing boards05:11
wolfspraulpeople who have boards already need to cut their j5 themselves, carefully, or use the jtag-serial like in fig. 1005:12
wolfsprauladamw_: agreed?05:13
adamw_agreed this.05:13
wolfspraulok cool05:13
wolfspraulwe created the mess, we cleanup the mess :-)05:14
adamw_when you received 12pcs, you could also insert to feel.05:14
wolfspraulI don't have an m1 board right now...05:14
adamw_yes05:14
adamw_ok05:14
wolfspraulI will only send them to people who bought m1 boards already.05:14
wolfspraulso because we don't have a good official solution, this problem will be multiplied to many people...05:14
wolfsprauloh well. at least we try to stop it now...05:14
wolfspraulbut your pictures are very clear, thanks!05:15
wolfsprauladamw_: I'm a little worried telling people to clip off the j5 on m1 themselves05:19
wolfspraulthe metal is quite thick, and they need quite a bit of force. I can easily imagine they break off the entire connector from the board.05:19
adamw_wolfspraul, hmm...to trim this four metal pins 4.3mm off, yes, it's quit hard to trim exactly..05:22
adamw_but just slight trim 2mm first then another 2mm..05:22
adamw_and contact with pod.05:23
wolfspraulhmm05:24
wolfspraulwell. like I said.05:24
wolfspraulwe already agreed on a plan.05:24
wolfspraullet's find shorter j5 ourselves first, asap.05:24
adamw_i just trim four pins in this way and to hook up them together.05:24
wolfspraulthen rework the existing boards05:24
adamw_ok05:25
wolfspraulif we believe we can find them, we can also start trimming j5 on the m1 boards ourselves now, before we sell them05:25
wolfspraulbut the main thing is to find a standard connector05:25
wolfspraulyeah, so maybe we do that too.05:25
wolfspraulif someone orders m1 now, we send them a trimmed m105:25
wolfspraulbut you don't need to trim them all now, let's look for a standard connector first, buy them, and then rework the boards you have with that standard connector05:26
adamw_well...to find a exist header not just a standard one.05:26
adamw_i would trim them once I sure I can order a shorter header.05:26
wolfspraulyou think trimming is better than changing to the new header?05:30
wpwrak(pain) looks nasty. and that's after picking the "right" connectors ? :-( well, i'll read the backlog over breakfast ... nothing like a good tragedy to start your day :)05:34
wolfspraulI tried to explain to you recently that this was already unavoidable...05:34
wolfspraulthe mistakes were made earlier, but we try to contain them now.05:34
wolfspraulone could even argue whether the idea of a separate debug board has merits or not05:35
wolfsprauland if it has to be, the next idea was to use 2 different connectors side by side to make an 'ultra flexible' solution05:35
wolfspraulwell, that backfires badly now, but no surprise...05:35
wolfspraullike I said, sometimes you just have to enjoy the mess, what can you do...05:36
wolfspraulwe've already sunk a lot of hours into this, and many more will follow05:36
wolfspraulwith all the costs into this already today, I would have enough money to put ft2232 + connector on the first 1000 milkymist one, at least05:37
wolfsprauland the bills keep coming...05:37
wolfspraulanyway this will not kill the project, we'll fix it and recover05:39
wpwrak(unavaoidable) yeah. just in the discussion a few days it looked as if you were trying to find a part that solves it for this run (after rework), too. anyway, the pictures don't look nice indeed.05:50
wpwrak"M1 rc2 J5 header cut shorter pod C27 collide J6 headers outlet on m1.png" is the cap on the jtag board in front hitting the shroud of the jtag connector on mm1 ?05:51
wpwrak"M1 rc2 J5 header cut shorter pod U1 collide J6 headers outlet on m1.png" just looks messy, can't say whether right or wrong :)05:52
wpwrakthree bens arrived at customs at 3 am. let's see how long they take. those fedex multi-piece shipments are funny - the last time, they delivered one the first day, without covering customs fees or taxes, but the second one only the next day, saying their delivery folks had been overloaded. optimization ... doing it very wrong ;-)05:57
lekerneldon't worry about that cap. it still works, and it's plastic so no short circuit possible06:14
lekerneljust move it for the next run, but it's not a big issue06:14
lekerneland what's so hard about trimming connectors...? with cutting pliers it's easy06:15
lekernelhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:M1_rc2_J5_header_cut_shorter_pod_C27_collide_J6_headers_outlet_on_m1.png let's go for this06:17
wolfspraulyes we look for shorter j5 on m1 too06:21
lekernelu1 is a bit more of a problem, but not a show stopper either... working solutions are better than perfect solutions :)06:23
lekernelyeah, just put a shorter connector. and trim it on the existing boards06:23
wpwrak(cap) yeah, just mechanical stress could be an issue06:23
lekernelpeople ignoring the project are more of an issue06:25
wpwrak(trimming connectors) one problem can be mechanical stress if there's any sudden separation. can break solder joints and such. lead-free solder and anything mechanical don't go along well06:26
wolfspraulyeah well [u1]06:26
wpwrakyeah, where are the articles on heise news ? :)06:26
wolfspraulif we want articles, we need good stories06:27
wolfspraulthat's a lot of work to talk to journalists etc. I for one will start that once I have my stuff under control, which is hopefully soon :-)06:27
wolfspraulthings like this jtag-serial...06:27
wolfspraulthere's no way heise will just write about it because...? because what?06:28
lekernelwpwrak: why does trimming connectors aggravate this?06:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: because its technologically unusual ?06:29
wpwraklekernel: the act of clipping may06:29
lekernelusing proper cutting pliers does not put strain on the solders, does it?06:30
wolfspraulgo to heise, read the headlines, think who cares about this stuff and what more they might be interested in06:30
wolfspraulbut be honest :-)06:30
Action: lekernel has never seen a solder break because he cut some component lead attached to it06:31
wpwraklekernel: yes, if you do it right and slowly one by one, stress should be minimal. the key is doing it right :)06:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, "Mini-ITX-Mainboard mit AMD E-350 und USB 3.0" sounds a lot more boring even the least inspired headline about MM1 could say06:33
wolfspraulok, keep thinking06:33
wolfspraulif that's the case, why is it there?06:33
wolfspraulyou know they track very precisely click rates and what not...06:33
wolfsprauldo you think they don't know what their readers want?06:33
wolfspraulif this is what they want, why do they want that?06:33
wolfspraul(the readers)06:34
wolfsprauland what more could they possibly want?06:34
wpwrakwell, readers want to know what's going on in general06:34
wpwrakso you get boring stuff, too06:34
wolfspraulthis is publishing business, very competitive. 'boring' to them is an article with low click rates.06:35
wpwrakMM1 is a lot more on the fringe. people like that as well. "Lebewesen bauen wie mit Lego"06:35
wpwrakboring doesn't mean unpopular. if i'm about to buy a new pc, this information may be relevant. but it's still boring.06:35
wolfspraulok! "about to buy a new pc" - now we're getting practical...06:36
wolfspraulso when would someone want to read about Milkymist?06:36
wolfspraulor m106:36
wolfspraulthe IC design or the VJ product?06:36
wpwrakVJ, FPGA fans, but mainly people who want to know about solutions off the beaten path06:37
wolfspraulI would challenge whether 'fpga fans' exist, and how to find them.06:37
wolfspraulyou think someone will buy something only because it has an fpga?06:38
wolfspraulI really doubt that, and even if such people exist, finding them will be very hard.06:38
wolfspraulsame for people who like solutions 'off the beaten path'?06:38
wolfspraulthat's not enough06:38
wolfspraulI know some people who buy 'every new gadget', but they usually have a price limit, for example I've heard 150 EUR from such people.06:38
wpwrakthere are actually very few good headlines on heise lately - all just product evolution and a bit of finances and politics. well, reduces the time drain caused by idle browsing :)06:38
wolfspraulaha :-)06:39
wpwrakhigh cost may be an issue, yes06:39
wolfspraulplus I'm not sure whether we should try to sell the m1 to those 'every new gadget' folks.06:39
wolfspraulthey would all disappear into nowhere06:39
wolfsprauljust makes a little cash06:39
wolfspraulit helped me sell a few NanoNotes... turned on once, then into drawer.06:39
wpwrak(fpga fans) i was thinking more of people who already use fpgas or are following the technology and are interested in novel uses. MM1 may be about the most ambitious use of mid-range fpgas so far and it's a bit quirky (VJ) as well.06:40
wpwrakyou don't need to sell to the gadgeteers. get them to talk, spread the news06:41
rohwolfspraul: i think the mm1 is well suited for people doing fpga work in general. not neccessarily vj stuff, but as a fpga-develboard06:42
rohdunno how expensive spartan6 develboards usually are. i guess 'more expensive'06:42
wpwrakthe more serious folks may not have the time to look everywhere for the juicy bits of information. but let the gadgeteers be the bees who bring the seeds and flowers together :)06:42
rohselling to 'i only buy it because its a gadget' people only generates support requests which are annoying ;)06:43
wpwrakroh: digi-key, enter spartan ... many in the same range, one (SP601, out of stock) cheaper (USD 268)06:44
wolfspraulI'm thinking about highlighting the vj application.06:44
wpwrakerr, in stock but a non-stock item06:44
wolfspraulthe only problem is that 'vj' may make a lot of people think 'oh, that's not me'06:45
rohwolfspraul: sure.06:45
wpwraki you could choose to travel both paths independently06:45
wolfspraul'party machine' or 'party station' sounds primitive though06:46
wolfspraulvideo hub - argh06:46
wolfspraul:-)06:46
wolfspraulVJ station...06:46
lekernelembedded multimedia computer?06:46
rohwpwrak: eh.. the cheaper develboard seems to have no nearly no io stuff and a smaller spartan06:46
wolfspraulwe can say it's a VJ station that is so easy to use that anybody can use it, even just for a simple party at home06:46
wpwraknot sure how close it is to being ready for VJs, though. it it stage-stable ? or does it have enough features for studio use ? maybe just a "toy" for creative inspiration ?06:47
lekernelah, yeah good idea06:47
roh XC6SLX16-CS32406:47
lekernelwpwrak: from my experience it is stage stable, except perhaps the video input06:47
rohwpwrak: SP605 is XC6SLX45 which costs 450E06:48
rohi wouldnt try selling to 'end consumers' which think its a computer. that only generates grief.06:48
rohbut one could use it as generic stage-equipment.. midi-dmx converter... controlling terminal...06:49
roha dmx lighting computer06:49
wpwraklekernel: sw and hw ?06:49
rohsuch stuff.06:49
rohwould need a app for that of course06:49
wpwraklekernel: also, is the general handling VJ-friendly ? e.g., most VJs probably don't know what JTAG is and may not have learning openocd very high on their list of personal priorities :)06:52
wolfsprauljtag? totally not needed06:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: this product is really cool, and definitely usable already!06:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: so jtag is just for debugging ? no tricky bootstrap every now and then ?06:55
wolfsprauland lekernel has very good focus to continue exactly along those priorities, which I think is what can really launch it eventually.06:55
wolfsprauloh no, definitely not.06:55
wolfspraulin fact, if the software is a bit more improved, reflashing over the software (without jtag) will be so easy that the jtag itself is really only necessary for rare development or debugging problems.06:55
wolfspraulnot sure when we are there, and how high on the priority list this is.06:56
wpwraki think not having to touch jtag would be an important feature for being able to sell it to VJs06:57
wolfspraulit's already there06:57
wolfspraulthe only thing is that right now, reflashing via software is still harder than reflashing via jtag06:57
wpwrakis it "it's already there" or "if the software is a bit more improved" ? :)06:57
wpwrakah, i see06:57
wolfspraul(assuming you have the jtag-serial board)06:57
wolfspraulwithout the need for upgrades, it's already there06:58
wolfspraulwith upgrades, reflashing via software is still harder, but it's a moving target and I believe Sebastien is on this06:58
wpwraki supposed upgrades will be unavailable06:58
wolfspraulas soon as upgrading via software will be easier than via jtag, jtag is relegated to rare problems06:58
wpwrakgood06:58
wolfsprauland that should be within weeks, at most a month or two? don't know Sebastien has the plan...06:59
wolfspraulwe are not seriously planning to add an extra hole for the jtag-usb into the case, for example06:59
wolfspraulnot needed06:59
wolfspraulby then jtag is only needed for rare problems07:00
wpwrakso you want to sell to end-users first. not going the geeks-as-beta-testers route07:00
rohi got a comment from people doing stuff on the 27c3 about flickrnoise07:07
rohthey said 'make the menu darker' .. or find a way to remove it.07:07
rohe.g. controll via ethernet and web-ui07:07
rohbecause it generates a lot of 'streulicht' on the beamers07:08
rohalternatively there could be a second video/vga out for the 'ui'07:10
rohand different resolutions. possibly also for the matrox thingie... thats used by vj's _a lot_07:11
rohhttp://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/products/gxm/th2go/ that matrox thingie07:12
rohbasically it simulates a monitor which has the H res of 'all outputs stiched together' and the V res of one of them.07:13
Jay7+1 to web ui07:13
rohbut thats all stuff for the 'todo/wannahave/suggestion/ideas'-box, regardless of solving the last few electrical, mechanical and sw issues with mm107:15
rohfor 'later' ;)07:16
larscroh, do you still maintain the new openmoko.org servers?07:28
rohnew?07:28
rohi still got root.. but only touch it if i need to to be fair07:28
rohi dont think anybody is actively 'maintaining' atm07:29
wolfspraulroh: speaking about admin stuff, I recently switched from exim to postfix, and from uw-imapd to dovecot07:31
kristianpaul['vj' may make a lot of people think 'oh, that's not me'] yup07:31
larscroh: ok. git access via the git protocoll does not seem to work.07:31
wolfspraulI do the backups with lvm snapshots now, mysql flush tables with read lock etc.07:31
rohwolfspraul: heh.. i still use exim. and dovecot07:31
rohlarsc: i'll take a look07:31
larscroh: thanks07:32
lekernelreflashing via software is easy with the current flickernoise/rtems... only the software you've flashed into the rc2 boards didn't support that yet07:32
lekernelthat's why upgrading those is a bit messy07:33
wolfspraullekernel: we can reflash what we have in stock with something new, if you have a release07:33
wolfspraullekernel: do you think reflashing with the latest software is already easier than with jtag?07:33
lekernelyeah definitely07:34
lekerneljust ftp 3 files or put them on the memory card, then select them in the GUI and click "program flash"07:34
rohlarsc: can you try accessing it?07:34
rohdaemon is running.. watching logfiles right now07:34
lekernelhttp://lekernel.net/blog/?p=133907:35
wolfspraulwpwrak: there you go...07:35
lekernelit's just steps 5 and 6 with the current sw07:35
larscroh: "git.openmoko.org[0: 88.198.160.201]: errno=Connection refused"07:36
rohhm.. last log entry from 2010-12-15 .. ill restart the vm07:36
rohtry again please07:36
kristianpaulmemory card ways looks clean for me :-)07:36
larscroh: seems to work, thanks :)07:37
bartbesso ehm07:37
bartbeswhat is that jtag?07:37
kristianpaul[embedded multimedia computer] i like it too07:37
rohlarsc: :)07:37
lekernelso yes : jtag = rare problems, developers-only, etc.07:38
lekernelbottom line: order shorter connectors for the next mm1 run, snap those damn connectors on the already-made boards, move u1 and the capacitor on the jtag layout for the next run if you care (I don't think they're so much of a problem), and don't delay anything07:39
lekernelhaving the daughter board isn't a bad idea07:40
lekernelit enables regular jtag cables to be used (don't forget we needed the xilinx cable at the beginning) and standard serial adapters07:40
rohlekernel: why not just a longer connector for the jtag instead a shorter one for the serial? wouldnt that also solve the cap problem?07:41
wolfspraul:-)07:41
lekernelwhatever is faster07:41
wolfspraulthe reason it's a bad idea is economical, not technical07:41
wolfspraulbut it's OK now, we move forward07:41
wolfspraulthis will cost us more, guaranteed...07:41
wolfspraulI can sense it already :-)07:41
wolfsprauluntil today, I'm sure we already would have paid for 1000, if not more, ftdi chips on m107:42
wolfspraulnot even counting all the free work by Yanjun Luo, test runs, what not07:42
wolfsprauland we will keep changing and fiddling with this, I'm sure.07:42
wolfspraulnext we have to discard the 50 usb cables we already bought, and look for those rare ones that are pointing upwards.07:42
wolfsprauland so on07:42
wolfsprauleconomically, it's a disaster07:42
wolfsprauland there will be more changes07:43
lekernelyou're too perfectionist...07:43
lekernelthe current usb cables can be used by removing one of the sides of the case07:43
wolfspraullet's not make things worse, we carefully move forward now.07:43
wolfspraulnext step: find shorter serial headers for m1, clip the boards in stock, or rework to new header.07:44
wolfspraullook for new 'point up' usb cable07:44
lekernelthe usb connector issue is a mere inconvenience07:44
wolfspraulfix the C27 issue on the next jtag-serial run (no need to start this work now)07:44
lekernelnot a show stopper07:44
wolfspraulof course not, but it's all work07:44
lekernelso it's down the priority list07:45
wolfsprauland i guarantee you, mark my words, that this daughterboard will cause us more pain/work07:45
wolfspraul100% guaranteed07:45
wolfspraulhopefully one day something comes up where we will think 'yay, we can do this easily because we have the jtag-serial board'07:46
wolfsprauljust have to believe that day will come :-)07:46
wolfspraulwe already start the savings for that day today...07:46
wolfspraul:-)07:47
wolfspraulI'm all easy about it btw.07:47
wolfspraulit's good, all moving07:47
lekernelI still don't think so. so far the only significant issue i've seen is a connector that needs to be made shorter07:47
wolfspraulnow that we have this daughterboard, maybe we can reuse it on xue. or who knows, maybe not because there's another good reason not to use it there...07:47
lekernelwhich is easily doable with a pair of pliers, if nothing else07:48
lekernelhow many consumer products can you count which have JTAG? many07:48
lekernelintegrated USB/JTAG, none07:48
wolfspraulour volumes are totally different07:50
kristianpaul[m1 jta-serial ]  Trim  to be ok, if is already did,  but i will not unplug that board once is there, also to be careful with usb cable when connecting that un-horizontal balance dont look good to me either07:50
wolfspraulof course nobody adds a 4 USD IC to a consumer electronic07:50
wolfspraulbut the jtag-serial daughterboard has easily cost us 5000 USD in cash now, with all the time and opportunity costs it's far more07:50
wolfsprauland how many m1 have we made so far? :-)07:50
wolfspraul40 :-)07:50
wolfspraulunless our m1 volume goes into the thousands, economically separating the jtag-serial will never make sense07:51
lekernelbut we want it to go into the thousands, don't we?07:51
wolfsprauland even if we go into the thousands, there would be enough time and resources to react then, for example to just leave the footprint unpopulated07:51
wolfspraulyeah, we can think like that :-)07:52
rohlekernel: do you have any scripting language running on the mm1 yet?07:52
lekernelroh: ruby works07:52
wolfspraulthat will make us feel better about it...07:52
rohlekernel: wow..  also rails?07:52
wolfspraulso let's just move full power now07:52
lekernelroh: don't know, I just tested the core07:52
rohlekernel: still very nice.07:52
rohlekernel: because i got somebody with rails experience who could eventually help out doing a web-ui for flickrnoise07:53
lekerneluhm07:53
lekernelruby is slow07:53
rohwhatever... in the end 'some httpd' and 'cgi or so' would be needed07:54
lekernelmight still be enough for generating webpages, I don't know07:54
lekernelfor remote control with "advanced" devices there's already OSC by the way07:54
lekernelthe menus don't look nice on the beamer, but you're not supposed to see them there07:54
rohlekernel: and how does one control a complete flickrnoise with that?07:54
lekernelonly because the 27C3 setup was a hasty mess07:55
rohhuh?07:55
rohnope. thats a regular vj setup what youve seen there07:55
lekernelI'm talking about my own setup07:55
rohah. where should the menu come out elsewise?07:55
lekernelI didn't have time to prepare anything on the M1, so I just did it in front of everyone07:56
rohits not about preparing. its about being able to access the full ui while its running07:56
lekernelprepare first (and connect the interfaces), then go to performance mode07:57
lekernelyeah, this feature is a bit hard technically, so I keep it for way later07:57
rohsure. one thing at a time07:57
lekernelwe could also simply add a second vga port using the gpio header07:57
wpwrak(daughterboard pain) have you considered connecting it to the MM1 with an FPC ? ;-)07:57
lekernelbut that's a significant work on software and fpga design07:58
rohlekernel: how much work is doing xga and multihead?07:58
lekernelespecially if you consider that scanning the extra screen will suck memory bandwidth and slow everything down07:58
lekernelquite a bit, memory bandwidth isn't an easy problem07:58
rohi see. but isnt your memory quite fast already?07:59
lekerneloh, it is, but xga/multihead can easily consume more than a dozen gpbs07:59
lekernelGbps07:59
lekernelwe can also do fake multihead and scale a lower resolution picture in the RAM on the fly08:00
lekernelmuch easier08:00
rohhm. the second head for the ui could be lower fps/ and or resolution i guess08:00
lekernelfps isn't the problem, the screen refresh rate is08:00
rohxga would be most important i think08:00
lekernelno matter how slow the image moves, you need to scan the screen at 60Hz (and typically more)08:01
rohright08:01
adamw_wpwrak, FPC? more pains.08:01
rohadamw_: s/fpc/crimped cable08:01
rohfpc sucks (breaks easily, tears, wears out)08:01
wolfsprauladamw_: he was joking08:01
lekernelwhat's fpc?08:01
adamw_wolfspraul, oah...you guys are funny.08:02
wpwrak(reflashing) what happens if the board resets after the "erase", before transferring the new files ?08:02
lekernelwpwrak: there's a rescue mode08:02
lekerneljust boot the rescue partitions in this case08:03
wpwraklekernel: (fpc) flexible plastic cable / flexible printed circuit. this was an inside joke - at openmoko, we had a "debug board" with jtag and serial, connected with an fpc. it caused us no end of trouble.08:03
lekernelok. well I think the MM1 daughterboard trouble is pretty much over08:04
rohit ended with 'having a known good cable' which was 'made fitting' with a cutter and pressing the connector while flashing to make it work08:04
wpwrakroh: i never did the "press the connector" part. even the ones that snapped could be jammed such that they would stay in place :)08:06
wpwraklekernel: (rescue mode) excellent08:06
rohwpwrak: stay in place yes... but have proper contact.. nope... not with connectors rated for 20 insertions08:07
Action: lekernel thinks many of you ought to try flickernoise and the mm108:07
wolfspraullekernel: one thing I don't like is that the video-in and audio-in connectors are so far apart08:09
wolfspraulthere are many cables that are bound together, and it's not easy to connect them. for example from digital cameras.08:09
lekernelyeah, maybe, but again that's a rare problem08:09
lekernelbtw with typical loud music the internal microphone picks up the sound well enough08:10
wolfspraulI think it's quite common. We may even be forced to put an extension cable into the box, but let's see...08:10
wolfspraulwhat if someone wants to play something they recorded on the camera?08:10
lekernelyeah, and then why not as many adapters as there are connectors on every equipment :)08:11
lekernelbig jack, rca, .. :o)08:11
lekernelthat's not a typical use case08:11
wolfspraulI'm just thinking practical.08:11
wolfspraulit's almost funny how far the video and audio connector are apart.08:11
rohi wouldnt worry08:11
wolfspraulas if it's on purpose :-)08:11
rohi seldomly see video and audio used from the same source in vjing08:12
wolfspraulyes it's a trs connector too08:12
lekernelsame here08:12
lekernelbtw I hear all sorts of stuff about this box08:12
lekernelcan it play video08:12
lekernelcan we put connectors on the top08:12
lekernelcan we have a second screen08:12
lekernelcan we have xga08:12
lekerneldoes it support usb sticks08:13
wolfspraulwe need to describe the 'perfect' use cases it was designed for08:13
lekerneletc etc etc08:13
wolfsprauluntil we do that, people will wander around asking all sorts of things, just as you describe08:13
wolfspraulcan I use this as my wifi router? :-)08:13
lekernelyeah, that's why I want to shoot a presentation/tutorial video asap08:13
wolfspraulput a usb wifi dongle in - should work, right?08:14
wpwrakdrivers ?08:14
lekernelanswering "yes if you write the software" usually turns down those slackers pretty easily :)08:14
wolfspraulfrom what I understand now, I think in general it's a box that helps you if you want to throw a party, or some other stage/art/lighting event08:15
wpwrakthat's why putting things on linux is so nice. almost instantly, all those driver and stack problems just vanish :)08:15
wolfspraulif that's true, that's quite a statement and it will put the rest in context.08:15
lekernelwpwrak: no because I don't really care about people wanting to make a wifi router08:16
lekerneland maybe linux has many drivers, but it also comes with at least as many issues, as I already mentioned many times08:16
wolfspraulwe really need to describe precisely which types of events/use cases this is for, and which not08:17
lekernelbut since you love linux that much, why not give larsc a hand porting it?08:17
wpwraklekernel: but they may care about you and particularly your work, interferingly so :)08:17
wolfspraulwe cannot ask everybody to figure this out themselves, like "hey, it has a spartan-6 fpga and this and that connector. you should know what it's for"08:17
wolfspraulI want to watch a video in my living room? no08:18
wpwraklekernel: (porting) i'd love to. alas, i don't think i'm in a position to commit to such a project08:18
lekernelwolfspraul: I was kidding :)08:18
wolfspraulkidding about what?08:19
roh i think there would be much more intterrest in porting linux if there was a mmu08:19
wolfspraulthe use cases it is intended/designed for are still not crystal clear to me08:19
rohcpus without arent worth shit for a real os.08:19
lekernelwe need to make a demo/tutorial video asap08:19
wpwrakroh: helping with the mmu would have to be part of a port, yes08:19
wolfspraulI'm slowly getting the hang of it, after the presentation in Bogota, talking to some people, seeing it live in Berlin, etc.08:19
rohwpwrak: sure. i just dont feel competent enough to be not standing in the way ;) thats why i move my ass out of the way08:20
wolfspraulbut if you give me 50 different use cases, and want to hear a clear yes/no from me whether that's what m1 was made for, I would have a hard time giving a clear answer for a lot of them.08:20
wolfspraulmany times it would be 'maybe. Ask Sebastien.' :)08:20
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's not only what it is designed for but what people could find it useful for. so it would be good to market it such that those who might have new uses don't think it's overly specialized08:21
rohwolfspraul: sure. but if that 50 usecases would be weigthed... not 'yes/no' but 'yes | yes,but: |no, but:| no' and having some 'how much work it is and what needs to be researched' for the 'but'-s ... that would help08:21
rohlike having a faq to search08:22
wolfspraulI agree. but the only way to stimulate this type of "hey, I can also use this for XYZ" thinking is to describe the current intended use cases as clearly as possible08:22
rohi could even imagine using the mm as some kind of usrp.. with the 3 adc for video as input08:22
wpwrakdescribing the current use case sounds good, yes08:22
wolfspraulin fact that's part of the reason you need it, because of course we want people to take this in new directions.08:22
rohfor signals of only a few mhz bandwith it would do fine08:22
wolfspraulbut if even the current 'directions' are not described well, there will be just chaos and nothing else :-)08:22
wpwrak(headline) how about simply Open Hardware VJ station ? people who don't care about the VJ bit but would like the underlying technology may find the "open hardware" interesting enough. and the VJs will probably look at anything that mentions their niche anyway.08:29
wpwrakfor marketing material (demo videos, use case, documentation), both tracks should probably be independent08:30
lekernelwpwrak: sounds good indeed08:30
wpwrakone challenge would be to explain why 80 MHz is not as shitty as it sounds. that may need explaining for technophiles and VJs. also the latter may know that their ultra-low-cost netbook has 20 times the clock rate.08:32
rohleave it out08:35
wolfspraulit may be thrown into the 'fpga computer - fail' category08:35
rohmove it to the tech-specs08:35
wolfspraulyes, agree08:35
rohthe 80mhz thingie08:35
wolfspraulI think it should be marketed over the end user features.08:36
roh'hw based rendering' +ducks*08:36
wolfspraulbut written in a good way so that tech people can take this and carry it into what they think they can turn this into...08:36
rohwe can surely find some buzzwords08:36
wpwrakroh: but even from the tech specs, you need an explanation. people will find it - and make fun of it.08:36
wolfspraulyes and no. the whole design is so unusual, like you said we could highlight the UNUSUAL part of it.08:37
rohwpwrak: sure. but stupid people arent targetgroup anyhow08:37
wolfspraulbut then we need to be careful because people will ask "unusual, ok. but does it have a future?"08:37
wolfspraulnobody is interested in one-off nonsense projects...08:37
Jay7do benchmark against ultra-low-cost netbook :)08:37
Jay7compare fps08:37
wolfspraulI like the vj thing, just that the use cases have to be described very well.08:38
wolfspraulin text, pictures, videos.08:38
wolfsprauland that also includes describing a list of use cases it is not good for.08:38
wolfspraul'not intended for'08:38
wpwrakroh: 80 MHz even sounds bad to non-stupid people.08:38
wolfspraulthat's not to stop people from doing exactly that, in fact a lot will read that list and say "that is EXACTLY what I am going to use it for..."08:39
wolfspraulbut it's to clarify the focus of the product08:39
wpwrakJay7: yup, benchmarks are important. particularly to answer the question "why not just some off the shelf netbook" ?08:39
wolfspraulwpwrak: not necessarily. press coverage is always good, even negative. Let them laugh.08:39
wolfspraulwe just need to feel good about it :-)08:40
wolfspraulwhen Bill Ray ran the "dedicated vi device" story for the NanoNote on theregister.co.uk, that brought worldwide attention08:40
wolfspraulof course there was a slight touch of retard to the text, so what08:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: (bad news are good news too) well, you're grabbing people's attention. what would you like them to focus on in those precious moments until the zap to the next channel - something good or something bad ?08:41
wolfspraulwell, that's what we need well written use cases for08:41
wolfspraulof course there has to be more than a catchy headline08:41
wolfspraulthe whole story must make sense08:41
wolfspraulI like the vj angle, definitely.08:41
wolfspraulthis can work.08:41
wolfspraulwe just need to describe use cases better, and lekernel is already planning to do something there...08:42
wolfspraulbtw, if someone has an idea, just email whatever journalist or blog you know/like08:42
wolfsprauljournalists need news, no need to waste time here talking to ourselves08:42
wolfspraulthey want to hear the story08:42
Jay780MHz is good reason to ask yourself "why so slooow CPU may doing that amazing things but my 1GHz netbook can't?"08:43
wolfspraulevery blog, every paper has a info@ submitnews@ or similar forms on their site08:43
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: Port of SVGAlib; patched to only use the linux frame buffer http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ac7a99108:43
wolfsprauljust spam them a little, see what happens :-)08:43
wpwrak(a) good VJ promo video(s) will definitely be useful. not only showing the final result but also the steps leading there. making it clear it's not just some cleverly crafted demo but actually a real tool.08:44
Jay7btw, yes.. try to record some video with good known VJ/DJ on some fest :)08:44
wolfspraulhah. the known ones will be careful to not be (ab)used for sales promotions...08:45
wolfspraulunderstandably slow, too much crap on the market08:45
Jay7or even donate some parts to known VJ's :)08:45
wolfspraulunderstandably so,08:45
lekernelwpwrak: I said a _tutorial_ video. this obviously includes that08:45
Jay7s/parts/devices/08:45
wpwraklekernel: perfect08:45
wolfspraulJay7: I have never once seen this kind of seed-donation strategy work.08:46
lekernelonly it takes time to make, and I already have 2 conferences, several people to meet and a 3500+km road-trip to prepare atm08:46
lekernelprobably when I'm back08:46
wpwrakJay7: or better, work with them. let them send the video, bragging of their results ;-)08:46
wolfspraulin fact, when you see this, you know that thing will not go very var.08:46
wolfspraulfar.08:46
Jay7wolfspraul: I see it right now08:46
wolfspraulwhich product?08:46
Jay7genesi donated about 50 smartbooks to developers08:46
wolfspraulalright :-)08:46
wolfspraulmark my words...08:46
Jay7so efikamx smartbook is most active platform for linaro developers08:47
Jay7beagleboard was before08:47
wolfspraulI'm very relaxed. It never works, ever.08:47
wolfspraulsometimes this type of early donations cannot stop the success of a product, it's not that bad, but they never contribute to it either.08:48
wolfspraulwell that's my experience at least, ymmv08:49
Jay7co-working with well-known VJ's/DJ's should be good anyway :)08:49
wolfspraulyes if we find someone who truly believes in the product08:49
wolfspraulthen I totally agree with you08:49
wolfsprauland in that case, that person is making a time commitment worth many times over the cash price of the product anyway08:50
wolfspraulso the cash price becomes an irrelevant little blip, for both sides08:50
wolfspraullekernel: which conferences are you going? can we do anything to support m1 sales there?08:51
Jay7btw, what is price of MM?08:51
lekernelfosdem + an academic conference at uni08:51
Jay7OpenEmbedded have stand on fosdem '1108:52
Jay7jfyi :)08:52
lekernelbearstech too, I hope they'll replenish their stock08:52
Jay7MM is good to have on background08:52
Jay7music/visual effects08:52
wolfspraulJay7: I can sell you one for 350 USD + shipping.08:53
wolfspraulthat's including jtag-serial, without case08:53
wolfsprauland including power adapter of course08:53
Jay7hm..08:53
wolfspraulyou can pay with visa/mastercard, or paypal08:53
wolfspraulwanna buy? :-)08:53
Jay7well, I'll think about this :)08:54
wolfspraulgreat, thanks!08:54
wolfspraulit's truly a good product, we really put our whole heart into this thing...08:54
Jay7I see :)08:54
wolfspraul(i'm not saying that means it will be successful, but it's the truth)08:54
wolfsprauldo you live in Europe or the US?08:54
kristianpaullekernel: You put a BUY link/pic at milkymist.org, but if you go to the distributors there is no milkymist or dates about it, is this intentional?08:56
Jay7Russia08:56
lekernelkristianpaul: no, it's just because they're late08:56
lekernelbut if you call them, you could get one08:57
kristianpaulah ok, just asking08:57
Jay7now we are needed some good copyleft music :)08:58
Jay7to bundle with :)08:58
wolfspraulRussia, OK. that would be a shipping/customs challenge but why not.08:59
Jay7wolfspraul: yeah..08:59
wolfspraulI think fedex only takes parcels declared up to 75 USD to Russia now.08:59
wolfspraulwe can try to go just under that radar...09:00
lekernelJay7: http://www.plexrecords.com/ (pretty experimental ;)09:00
Jay7I've looked at some tracker-music archives but almost all have no license to broadcast music in public place09:01
wolfsprauljamendo.com ?09:01
Jay7only for personal use09:01
Jay7same thing.. you should contact every author and ask permission.. or just pay jamendo :)09:01
wejpoh jamendo there are songs that are by or by-sa licensed. not all of them, but there are several09:02
kristianpaulfor now archive.org09:02
kristianpauland wiki commons09:03
wejpand you don't have to pay jamendo09:03
wejpjust have a look at the license being used09:03
wpwrak(seeding the community) particularly for relatively inexpensive items, this doesn't sound reasonable. that is, unless you're actually targeting people who couldn't afford to have dinner at a restaurant :)09:11
kristianpaullekernel: (plexrecords) sounds good, experimental indeed09:14
kristianpaul"All Tracks are licensed under a Creative Commons License." wich one?..09:15
wolfspraulkyak: you there?09:22
wolfspraulremember the libiconv-full/dependency problem that was being discussed here? I chatted with mirko about it, and he said he has an idea for a fix, but would prefer it to be brought up and discuss on the mailing list.09:23
wolfspraulcan you email the issue to discussion@lists.en.qi-hardware.com ?09:23
wolfspraulmaybe the solution can help more OpenWrt users in general...09:23
kyakwolfspraul: hi09:34
kyakok, i'll do it.. though i mentioned once how i dislike posting to mailing lists :)09:35
wolfsprauloh09:40
wolfspraulI would write it, no problem, but you know how this is with relays.09:40
wolfspraulunless I go through and first recreate it myself, my description would be totally wrong and useless.09:40
wolfspraulmaybe xiangfu can write it up too, he seems to know what exactly the problem is.09:41
kyaki'm already writing it, don't worry..09:42
kyakit is sent.. might be muddled, but if mirko is inside of this problem, he would understand10:04
kyakwolfspraul: how does it reach mailing lists? is it waiting for some approvement?10:05
wolfspraulhmm10:05
wolfspraulyeah I was just wondering10:05
wolfspraullet me check...10:05
wolfspraulit's not in the archives yet, I was just about to ask :-)10:05
kyakcan't see it just now in mailing lists10:05
kyakmailing lists.. the reason for spam in your mailbox and so much less convenient than forums :)10:06
wolfspraulok I just manually approved it, and put you email address into the auto-accept list10:06
wolfspraulno the mailing lists are definitely not to blame for spam10:07
kyakah ok, so not everyone can send there..10:07
wolfspraulI remember 2 spam mails on any qi mailing list since we started 1.5 years ago.10:07
wolfsprauland both bugged me and I'm thinking about how to avoid them :-)10:07
kyakno, i mean that your e-mail address is visible to the whole Internet10:07
wolfspraulwe strictly to opt-in (you have to manually subscribe to the list), and there are many ways to unsubscribe10:08
kyakand it will be used for spamming10:08
wolfspraulI think it's parsed out in the archives, let me check...10:08
kyakthe e-mail is coded as "name at mail.tld"10:09
wolfspraulwell partially... http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2011-January/006770.html10:09
kyaki think it's not a problems for those who collect email addresses..10:09
wolfspraulyes we could probably change that setting somewhere10:09
wolfspraulI'm using spamassassin, and it works quite well. Lately I'm also experimenting with grey-listing, which seems to put a bullet through the rest of the spam.10:09
wolfspraulalthough it affects mail delivery times which is not so nice.10:10
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmu: fix DEPENDS http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/437e15610:10
wolfspraulI'm reading this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VJ_%28video_performance_artist%2910:38
wolfspraulpretty good.10:38
wolfspraulone thing I could do is take some of the equipment they are talking about, see which online publications are covering it, and then email those publications about the m110:38
wolfspraulKorg, Edirol10:41
zrafakyak: you do not write to mls because you want to avoid spam? :)10:45
lekernelwolfspraul: there are already some "video synthesizers" around, e.g. by Edirol, but they're very expensive and do not work so well (and have little advantages over PCs)10:48
lekernelhttp://beta.vjcentral.com/hardware/edirol-cg8-0 I think we're already doing a better job than that...10:49
wolfspraulok so I'm on the right track :-)10:49
wolfspraullike I said - homework #1 - find out which blogs or publications are covering stuff like Edirol10:50
wolfspraulhomework #2 - contact all of those publications and tell them a good story about Milkymist One10:50
wolfspraulthat will hopefully establish some connections to people who are interesting in bringing a story10:50
lekernelyup10:51
wolfspraulI'll work on this.10:51
rohwolfspraul: hehe..  i was already thinking about 'doing an input interface'10:51
rohlike 'knobs and dials, some small display'10:52
lekernelthe hacker community is pretty small anyway (and often has other interests like networking and security) so this won't sell thousands - but the only reason I want to go this path first is there are a few hackers who are also artists and can handle sw problems (or even bring it or the hardware into new directions)10:52
rohmaybe i cook something up based on some arm develboard or so.. just as a prototype to get the mechanics right from a HIG standpoint.. talk to some VJ's and such10:52
rohusing the mm1 to do the 'gruntwork' on the data10:53
lekernelinput interface? there are already many10:53
lekernelmidi controllers, dmx stuff, ...10:53
lekerneland cheap10:53
rohthey all suck.10:53
rohand the cheap ones are garbage. atleast thats what i am told.10:53
rohthere seems to be nothing below 500-1500E depending on the problem which is worth the money10:54
lekernelI have a 40 euro dmx table which doesn't do such a bad job for that money... but anyway10:54
rohlekernel: it seems to be a mostly mechanical thing.. bad quality encoders and such. i was also even warned to use behringer equipment because of that (even when i have no hard feelings about that brand)10:55
rohthings like "dont have precise 'klicks'" and such10:55
rohit seems that its the little things which get performers annoyed10:57
lekernelhttp://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html11:02
wolfspraulroh: which means we need good Flickernoise documentation11:09
wolfspraulare there other free software VJ apps?11:09
rohwolfspraul: i think there are.. but i dont know them11:11
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: gnuplot-gfx: a graphical gnuplot that uses truecolor libvga graphics http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/733668611:18
wolfspraulwho created the 'Flickernoise' name?11:25
wolfspraulwas it Sebastien?11:25
wolfspraulis that the name just for the app, or the whole system? The wiki seems ambiguous about that ("Flickernoise uses RTEMS")11:26
wolfspraulI guess we have a whole bunch of news here :-)11:26
lekernelthe doc is in progress: https://github.com/lekernel/flickernoise/tree/master/doc11:26
lekernelyes11:27
lekerneland just for the app11:27
wolfspraulyou created that name?11:27
lekernelyes11:27
wolfspraulah OK11:27
wolfsprauland it's based on some older software, right? Genode FX?11:28
wolfspraulI read something about that...11:28
wpwrakbartbes: (flite) i was wondering when i saw xiangfu's intricate command sequence :-)11:28
lekernelgenode fx is a GUI toolkit, used to create to windows, buttons and such, which I forked (MTK)11:28
lekernelflickernoise uses mtk for window management, widgets, etc.11:28
lekernelfunny how you're discovering that just now :)11:31
lekernelI started talking about it in March (or so) last year11:31
wolfspraulit's not as bad as me 'discovering' it now, I just try to get some official 'party line' from you :-)11:32
lekernelI wanted it to run on Linux originally, then I ran into the GNUtard and Theobroma related issues11:32
wolfspraulGenode FX seems to be quite dead http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/detail.php?group_id=237260&ugn=genode-fx&type=svn&mode=12months11:33
lekernelyes, that's why I forked11:33
wolfspraulso MTK is a fork of Genode FX?11:33
lekernelyes11:33
wolfspraulis that fair to say?11:33
lekernelyes11:33
wolfspraulok. And flickernoise uses MTK.11:33
wolfspraulalright, so Flickernoise is a totally new app, no fork of anything.11:33
lekernelit's not a fork, but it draws ideas from Milkdrop with which it's partially compatible11:34
lekernelregarding the rendering system11:34
bartbeswpwrak: I can totally beat him ;)11:34
lekernelthe renderer code is original (but somehow based on the demo firmware which I also wrote)11:35
wolfspraulok but that's more of an input format compatibility for the MilkDrop patches, right?11:35
lekernelyeah, and how the general process of rendering works11:35
wolfspraulwe just say Flickernoise is a new app, started from scratch11:35
wolfspraulit uses the MTK toolkit which is a fork of Genode FX, and it has some patch compatibility with MilkDrop11:35
wolfspraulthat's a headline that might work for heise "free software VJ project started"11:36
wolfspraulthey seem to have a really vibrant group of people who likes to argue, passionately, for or against free software11:37
wolfspraulfeels like they are all stuck in the 90's somehow, but whatever. heise feeds them what they need...11:37
lekernelif you want to feed the troll, you can also point out it's not ported on PCs...11:37
wolfspraulno I don't care to feed the troll, but that's a headline I could imagine on heise (for example)11:38
wolfspraulthey like to announce the start or death of free software projects11:38
lekernelha11:38
lekernelwell ok then11:38
wolfspraulmaybe someone has a list they can check off. 'succeeded' yes/no. 'failed' yes/no. then they can yet again bring forward their arguments.11:39
wolfspraulpainful but I've seen it a lot there...11:39
wolfspraulthey should get a life :-)11:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: "selling" the software apart from the hardware ?11:39
wolfspraulnot selling, but I think nobody knows anything about flickernoise11:40
wolfspraulwe just have to unwind the unknown stuff slowly11:40
wolfspraulsebastien has started a number of efforts that are worth to be understood separately, and need to be understood separately11:40
wpwrakalright. break it down into many little newsbits. why not.11:40
wolfspraulMilkymist the IC design11:40
wolfspraulMilkymist One the VJ station11:40
wolfspraulFlickernoise the VJ app11:41
wolfspraulMTK the Genode FX-fork fpga gui toolkit11:41
wolfspraulcan you develop flickernoise on a pc or emulator?11:41
lekernelyou can also add liboscparse, which is a fork of liblo without autoconf and other non-portable bits :)11:42
lekernelbut that was a one-day project :p11:42
lekernelyeah, you can use QEMU11:42
wolfspraulwell that's the thing. to be a 'project' it needs to be announced, explained, nurtured, etc.11:42
lekernelthere are still a few problems with the rendering but overall it works11:42
wolfspraulso you could run the whole thing in qemu on your notebook?11:43
lekernelif you don't run into rendering bugs, yes11:43
wolfspraulhow about the midi, dmx, video-in stuff then?11:43
lekernelthey're not emulated11:43
lekernelthat's the point of the M1: have stuff you don't find on PCs11:43
wolfspraulhow about line-in/out11:43
lekernelit works with the soundcard11:43
wolfspraulwhat's emulated in qemu?11:44
wolfsprauleverything but those 3 I listed?11:44
wolfspraulinfrared probably not11:44
wolfspraulbuttons11:44
lekernelcpu, base peripherals, vga, pfpu, tmu, mouse, keyboard11:44
lekernelaudio11:44
wolfspraulbuttons?11:44
lekernelnot emulated afaik but I might be wrong11:44
wolfspraulok11:45
wolfspraulso mainly missing: dmx, midi, video-in, infrared11:45
wolfspraulgot it11:45
lekernelflickernoise doesn't use them yet anyway... and I just plan to use them as accelerator keys for things you also can click with the mouse11:45
larscand leds!11:45
larsc;)11:45
wpwrakheh, someone should produce the ben-blinkenlights board :)11:46
rohwolfspraul: heh.. when there is the point for another mm board... we need more leds12:19
rohs/point/situation12:19
kristianpaulwpwrak: a 8:10 IO cable will be usefull too, ready to connect to breadboard !12:19
wolfspraulkristianpaul: we have that already. I will put some into the shipment to you.12:23
wolfspraulhow many do you need?12:23
wolfspraulI think I only have 3 left or so, so your option is 1 or 2? :-)12:24
kristianpaul112:24
wolfspraulok great, I'll add it12:24
kristianpaulwow i never tought see octave on the nanonote and here it is !12:37
kristianpaulCheers to David Kuehling !12:37
kristianpauloh wait thats was gnuplot thread12:38
wolfspraulyes it's gnuplot12:38
wolfspraulbut he's amazing12:38
wolfspraulI can hardly keep up in tracking all this, let alone doing a proper app catalog, or test plan for releases...12:38
lekernelroh: what do you need leds for?12:48
lekernelyou can simply connect a mega shift register on the gpio port ;)12:48
rohlekernel: lighting up the acryllic12:48
lekernelah...12:48
lekernelwell that makes perfect sense as a separate daughterboard :)12:48
rohlekernel: naah. too expensive.12:48
roh12-20 leds cost nearly nothing.. another pcb costs dollars12:49
lekernelyou can use FR2 :)12:51
rohstill mechanically complicated12:53
rohwould be simple to do on the main pcb12:53
wpwraklekernel: "what do you need leds for?" what a question ! now i'm beginning to doubt you ...13:05
kristianpaulroh: even just wiring the leds (and no pcb) just some conectors will be fine i think13:12
rohlekernel: git is ok. but not as a central repo for stuff like kerneltrees.13:40
rohlarsc: hm.. i dunno the correct solution for now.. i think i need to fix my notrbooks fan unit first13:40
wolfspraulroh: come on. that's what the whole world knows git for :-)13:41
wolfspraulit's all about staying practical I think. everything grows. maybe the server just doesn't have enough ram?13:41
rohwolfspraul: well.. i've seen it doing such bad error reporting quite some time now.13:41
wolfspraul2 GB is nothing nowadays, should be 4 or 8.13:41
wolfsprauland in a few years 20 GB will be normal, and so on.13:41
rohwolfspraul: the machine has ram. still the repo is big.13:41
roh8gb is really far.13:41
wolfspraulsure I'm not doubting your experience.13:41
roheh fat.13:42
rohit clutters.13:42
wolfspraulit's just funny you say "not as a central repo for stuff like kerneltrees"13:42
rohneeds manual repack from time to time.13:42
wolfsprauldon't you think that's funny?13:42
rohits not 'switch it on and it works' sw.13:42
rohwhich is a bad omen in general.13:42
wolfspraulit's like saying a car is not so good for driving people around, but as shelter when it rains, it's quite nice :-)13:42
rohits a bit like djb sw from the documentation and usability part. can't use it purely. one needs 'stuff around it'13:42
rohgit without gitosis for example is clearly not usable for sane people.13:43
wolfspraulsure git is 'decentralized', but man there's tons of stuff at kernel.org these days...13:43
wolfspraulmust be hundreds if not thousands of people committing there everyday, no?13:43
rohnot saying that djb sw is bad. i use it a lot. but its not a solution for any problem. its a toolbox full of parts.13:43
rohwolfspraul: i bet kernel.org has a) paid admins and b) massive ressources to make problems dissapear13:44
wolfspraulof course13:44
wolfspraulbut whatever solution you have, when you scale there will be issues13:44
wolfsprauland then you need to zoom in on them in a practical way13:44
rohbad sw often can be counteracted by throwing ressources at it.13:44
rohthe thing is: last time i repacked that repo, it broke.13:44
larscroh: my kernel repo i only 1.2GB and it contains more the the openmoko git repo13:44
rohand the point that that can happen makes me think and not trust it entirely. its not a showstopper. somebody could just repush a working copy. but its still sucky.13:45
wolfspraulI have seen lots of serious git bugs being found and fixed over the years.13:46
wolfspraulto go from 1 corruption to 'I don't trust the tool' is really crazy.13:46
wolfspraulthat corruption can have so many root causes...13:46
rohwolfspraul: google for it. repack seems to have that effect not only for me13:47
rohwhat i wonder is: why do i need to do that AT ALL?13:47
wolfspraulok then stay away from repack until the consensus is that it is rock-safe13:47
rohalso i learned: lots of unix sw has _shitty_ error handling13:48
rohgit not being an exception.. the error output is worthless.13:49
roherror handling meaning: stuff like ressource shortages etc.13:49
larschm, i guess i can't run repack with git+ssh access?13:49
rohbuffer space... sockets... pages.. whatever. lots of stuff just deadlocks or even goes completly crazy13:49
rohi'll now do something i dont like...  shoot into the blue13:52
rohi bumped the lockedpages limit up quite a notch and restarted the vm please retry13:53
rohalso i started a vzdump on the vm... as soon as its done i'll try repacking13:56
larscroh: same problem14:02
rohhm. if i knew... could it be a diskspace problem?14:03
rohwhere does git-pack store its stuff when doing the pack?14:03
rohhm. it wasnt lockedpages14:04
rohatleast it didnt run against the limit14:05
rohhm. to be fair... ive got no clue what to do besides waiting for the backup and repacking14:08
lekernelerror handling sucks in C14:18
lekernelno wonder why programmers do it wrong (including me)14:19
lekernelin a typical C program you have to type more stuff to handle errors than to actually do things14:19
lekernelthat is totally counter productive14:19
rohsure. thats what libs are for.14:20
lekernellibs?14:20
rohlibaries.14:21
lekernelyeah got it14:21
lekernelbut I don't see how14:21
rohquestion of api concept14:21
lekernelimo a better solution would be exception, but without all the overhead of stupid systems like SjLj14:21
rohexceptions arent doing anything different. just different coding style14:21
lekernelsure, but the coding style is what matters here14:22
lekernelnot having to check the return value of every function call for errors is good14:22
rohsure. but thats a question how the api looks like.14:22
lekerneland the exceptions make a big difference in the generated code (i.e. they bloat it)14:23
lekernelat least given how they're implemented with the GNU C++ compiler14:23
lekernelI don't know how other compilers handle that (and I wouldn't be surprised if they did a better job)14:23
rohi dont do c++.14:24
lekernelneither (or little of it) but it would be nice to have exceptions in C14:24
rohdoesnt make it prettier.14:24
lekernelbut it would sure make writing C programs more productive and make them have better error handling14:25
lekernelseriously, having to check the result of *every* memory allocation manually... this sucks14:26
rohsure. thats why that should be abstracted.14:27
rohif you want to write highlevel code, use a highlevel language. this does mean that neither C or C++ come to mind.14:27
lekernelmy_malloc(x) { r = malloc(x); if(r == NULL) { complain(); exit(1); } return r; }14:27
rohC iss a macroassembler.14:27
rohC++ is its bastard little brother with a second head on its knee.14:28
lekernelcurrent high level languages are slow14:28
lekernelbut don't get me wrong, I do use python, and I think it's good14:29
lekernelbut not when I need speed14:29
roh;)14:29
lekernelatm I'm writing a fpga synthesis tool (when I have spare time), and I need both speed and high level constructs. so I write it in C and abuse assert(), perror() and exit()...14:30
rohhrhr14:32
larscif you don't do any large allocations it doesn't make a lot of sense to check for allocation failures in userspace14:33
rohlarsc: depends. if your code crashes and burns otherwise... its a good idea.14:35
rohespecially since nearly all servers are virtualized and have hard ressource limits nowadays14:35
rohbut hey.. when you write apps and dont use any wrappers you are weird anyhow ;)14:36
rohglib for example afaik does block-allocation anyhow14:36
larscif you can allocate your 30bytes struct anymore, it does not really help to catch that error, because you probably won't have enough memory to print error msg or whatever either14:41
larscs/can/can't14:41
rohtrue14:41
rohbut your printing routing would take it from some block-allocation usually.14:42
rohwhere you also should get your few byte snippets from.14:42
rohugh http://git.661346.n2.nabble.com/Large-pack-causes-git-clone-failures-what-to-do-td5481488.html15:27
wpwrakroh: so it's failing ?16:15
wpwrakroh: or are you just bracing yourself for impact ... for now ? :)16:15
rohwell.. i am still waiting for git fsck --full --verbose to exit16:15
rohroot     32574 91.2  7.2 1014656 591900 /var/lib/vz/root/201/dev/pts/0 R+ 21:35  36:17                                  \_ git fsck --full --verbose16:15
rohmemload varies... mostly between 500m and 1g16:16
rohwill try to repack to chunks of a few hundred mbyte afterwards16:16
rohthe machine has 8g ram..16:18
wpwraktry virtualbox some day for the really scary stuff. the occasional bruise with the windows world really helps to see the little nuisances we have to deal with in perspective :)16:19
wpwrak(in my case, caused by the pc running the one bloody piece of non-free software i use dying)16:20
rohwpwrak: nah... got kvm on my local notebook. no need for vb16:33
rohwe got native win32 machines around (e.g. the lasercutter)16:33
wpwraki'm trying to avoid them going native :)16:36
rohwpwrak: not an option (no other usecase, dedicated hw)16:59
rohand we need working usb16:59
wpwrakvb-sun handled usb. maybe vb-oracle does, too17:00
rohsure. still i dont use it. bad code. bad experiences.17:08
rohhm. slow process runs slow19:00
rohroot     32574 93.0 11.3 1173756 926412 /var/lib/vz/root/201/dev/pts/0 R+ Jan06 189:52                  |               \_ git fsck --full --verbose19:00
kristianpaulIs just me or for some reason the Ethernet Gadget in the Xbusrt may reset sudently sometimes..21:31
kristianpaulargg i'll check the usb cable, this is getting disturbing21:50
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system, add math stuff and some new pakcages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ca0b6e723:14
kristianpaulWb :-)23:24
--- Fri Jan 7 201100:00

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