#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2011-01-04

DocScrutinizer?00:05
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: ?00:05
DocScrutinizeraah gta04, yeah. That'S about the whole story00:06
wpwrakgta04 .. "your baby" :)00:06
DocScrutinizeryeah00:06
wpwrakor shall i say "your love child" ? ;-)00:07
DocScrutinizerhmm00:07
DocScrutinizeriirc you at least didn't feel much love for it :-)00:09
kristianpaulWho loves arm around this channel?.. :p00:09
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: let's say that i smelled the rat :)00:12
DocScrutinizeryup00:12
DocScrutinizeranyway, I guess kristianpaul referred to dash00:13
kristianpauli have news ! seems repeated data is normal after all, i'm just reading short intervals from buffer address and i'm getting repeated data in samples of 128, 256 and  512 bits00:14
DocScrutinizerit's neither non-deployed nor super alpha, but it clearly was a navi00:14
kristianpauls/arm/arm processors or SoC00:14
kristianpaulnv about arm, i'm kind of sleep now00:16
kristianpauli need my tea but i dint go shopping yet00:16
DocScrutinizerhmm, tea00:16
wpwrakkristianpaul: 2440 as far as i remember00:18
wpwrakkristianpaul: so yes, definitely ARM00:18
DocScrutinizerdash?00:18
wpwrakyes00:22
kristianpaulhttps://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest00:25
wpwrakhttp://underhanded.xcott.com/00:30
kristianpaulCadaveras y Diablitos :-)00:39
kristianpaulyup i just changed SMCR to some no default value and output after reading seems to behave okay00:41
kristianpaulhmm wait00:43
kristianpauloh i hate my self, i forgot to unfix something on fpga before.. :S00:45
kristianpaulbut.. wow no changes at all after fix it00:52
kristianpaullets take more samples00:52
wpwrakyour fpga and my rf measurements seem to share some profound nastiness :)00:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: bom/Makefile: invoke eeschema to generate the BOM, some cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/669817401:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: BOM update for atusb http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ed2005301:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/plscan: comment out yrange (the experiments now cover all sorts of ranges) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9c2f37b01:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/cam/mkmk: update for on-going work; showcase use of "rotate" http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/155dfba01:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added the AT86RF231 to the bookshelf and the BOM resources http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/66f5fff01:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added AT86RF231 schematics symbol http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/56b93a101:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb: switched from the AT86RF230 to the AT86RF231, added missing RF ground http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9f8a77e01:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd: switched schematics from the AT86RF230 to the AT86RF231 http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ee761101:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/atrf.sch: defined footprint of B1 (0805-6) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b44e73101:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd: switched to Johanson 2450FB15L0001 balun http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3ea019901:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.sch (C1, C2, C9): added "/RF" to make BOOM select UHI Q type http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7d7564201:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: updated U1, added C9, and rearranged things for XTAL1/2 swap http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/47236cb01:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: use 110% antenna; better follow 8:10 card shape http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7b10db101:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: removed layer alignment targets (they confuse cameo) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d833b5001:23
kristianpaulhey, gnu coreutils is good source of code sample for implementing a command line parameters :-)01:49
Action: kristianpaul zzZ01:49
bartbesI wonder04:23
bartbesdoes Jane Andreas ever drop by here?04:23
zrafabartbes: maybe he is the gforth guy? ;-))04:31
bartbeshahaha04:31
bartbesno that was David Kuehling iirc04:31
zrafatwo faces man :)04:31
bartbesit's just annoying that I know their (supposedly) real names04:31
bartbesbut not who they are04:31
wolfspraulbartbes: no I've never seen Jane here04:39
wpwrakbartbes: welcome to the age of networking, where you communicate with everyone, yet have never seen anyone's face :)06:17
wpwrakyizhang: wheee, toys are coming ! good news, thanks !! :)06:22
yizhangwpwrak: you are welcome.06:23
yizhangwpwrak: thanks a lot06:23
yizhangi'm looking forward to see your great results06:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: the wpan experimental boards will need some kind of "case". i guess i real case is unlikely at the time, so what shall be the alternative ? "naked" and hope for the best ? a bit of acrylic / silicone / PUR spray ? (used for conformal coating)06:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: dip in a jar of any of the above ? other ? what does the average ACME do when they need a "case" but don't have time to make one ?06:26
wpwrakyizhang: hehe, me too :) and let's hope they are as you say :)06:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, sharism.cc really ought to be de-museified. maybe something for your return flight :) how about just replacing all the "content that should be updated from time to time" (but isn't) with links to where the real stuff is ?06:48
kristianpaulwpwrak: toys from digikey?, wow so fast !06:52
wpwrakkristianpaul: no, these are toys from sharism (need more bens to experimenting - i have a tendency to leave them in various states of dismantlement and immobility that makes it hard to use them for more than one kind of experiment)06:53
wpwrakkristianpaul: the digi-key toys should already be somewhere over the southern US :)06:54
kristianpaulah i see, i was about to think that think digikey is getting _fast_ to you :-)06:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: they're much faster than you thought :) they shipped something like one hour after i ordered. i think that's a new record.06:57
wpwrakalas, at the end, i'll lose a day between customs and fedex. customs, by delaying things beyond the fedex cutoff time for that day, and fedex by having a relatively early cutoff time (something around 10 am for clearing customs)06:59
wolfspraulwpwrak: [sharism.cc] yes of course I know.07:11
wolfspraulit will need a few more weeks, but I'm getting there07:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: sorry for the nagging ... it's just that everytime i look at it, something at the back of my head starts screaming :)07:12
wolfsprauloh sure07:12
wolfspraulthanks for the reminder07:12
wolfspraulabout the case, that's interesting07:13
wolfspraulacrylic/silicone/pur07:13
wpwrakwhat's "the chinese way" if it has to be quick and dirty ?07:13
wolfspraulhard to say. probably reuse a USB stick case.07:14
wpwrakheh :)07:14
wolfspraulbut that will be butt ugly07:14
wpwrakpity that the board is a bit too large for that07:14
wpwraktoo wide and too long actually. well, not too long for some of the older ones.07:15
wolfspraulwhy don't we present it to roh ? :-)07:15
wolfspraulI'm willing to pay a (little) money if he starts experimenting.07:15
wolfspraulyou want the case for the 8:10 card or the usb card?07:16
wpwrakboth will need a "case"07:16
bartbeshey, does anyone know how to release the fb in case the program which grabbed it crashed?07:16
wpwrakbartbes: are you familiar with the wrapper-cleaner approach ? start process that ignores all signals it can ignore then forks the real thing. when the real thing exits, clean up.07:18
bartbeswpwrak: that..07:18
bartbesdoesn't sound too bad07:18
bartbesI can do that07:18
bartbesa signal handler07:18
bartbesthanks for the idea07:19
wpwrak(case) if something silicone-based works, that could be pretty easy to make in small quantities. silicone being soft may also tolerate a fair amount of inaccuracy07:19
Action: wpwrak dabs some silicone on wood treated with improvised release agents ... oil and alcohol. we'll know how that went in ~24 hours.07:21
wpwrakbartbes: not just a signal handler. the first process just waits for the other one to terminate by whatever means, be it crash, kill, or regular exit. then it cleans up the mess that was left behind.07:25
wolfspraulsilicone is used for low-volume plastic injection07:25
wolfspraulfrom one silicone mould, you can make 10-20 pieces, of course it looses accuracy fast07:25
wpwrakbartbes: for an even tougher variant, open a pipe to a daemon, let the daemon do the dirty work, the daemon waits until the pipe is closed, then cleans up07:26
wpwrakbartbes: you're guaranteed that, no matter how your process died, its file descriptors will be closed (well, excepting catastrophic system failure :)07:26
bartbesyeah the thing is07:27
bartbeshow would I release the fb from that 2nd (host) process?07:27
wpwrakbartbes: the advantage over the wrapper approach is that they can live in different domains of the system. e.g., the daemon can be unkillable by the (non-root) user.07:27
bartbesyou're seriously overthinking this..07:28
wpwrakbartbes: the 2nd process would "own" the fb. e.g., open it, set it up, then either tell the 1st process to use it, or - if necessary - pass a file descriptor. when you close the pipe, clean up.07:28
bartbesyeah, that isn't going to work07:29
wpwrakbartbes: naw, that's how such things are done if failure is not an option :)07:29
bartbesI just need to clean up the fb afterwards07:29
bartbesor use a signal handler to catch sigsegv :P07:29
wpwrakbartbes: why is it not going to work ?07:29
bartbesyour solution is hugely impractical07:29
wpwraksigsegv has the disadvantage that you won't catch user kill, abort(), assert(), any function doing a fprintf(stderr, "moan\n"); exit(1);, etc.07:30
bartbes*sigh&07:30
wpwrakyou're just lazy ;-)07:31
wpwrakhere's a bit of code that tries to implement the concept of a daemon that "owns" the critical resource: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/wernermisc/source/tree/master/libbb07:32
wpwrakit's not completely tested because the underlying resource didn't work as intended at that time (kernel problem), but it should be close07:32
wpwrakwhat you do is that you fork your daemon and open a pipe (unix domain socket) to it. the daemon opens the resource, sets it up, and passes a file descriptor back to you07:34
wpwrakwhen you're done, you exit. daemon notices that you closed the pipe, cleans up (it still has the file descriptor), and exits as well07:34
wpwraka lot of programs rely on this mechanism in one way or another. not all of them use file descriptor passing, though, but that's just a shortcut so that i can keep my daemon simple (i.e., i don't worry much about the application doing bad things with the file descriptor, which it could in this case)07:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: (silicone mould) yes. i wonder where to get this sort of materials from (here in buenos aires)07:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: the alternative would be to have a mold made of something more solid, e.g., wood, and just pour the silicone inside. so the "case" itself would be silicone.07:37
wolfspraulI don't know, too little experience. My guess would be that a silicone case is too weak.07:38
wpwrakwood may not be the greatest of materials for this sort of experiment, but it's easy to source and machine. also, if i find a release agent that works with wood, it'll work with anything ;-)07:38
wolfspraulbut I don't know what happens if you make a case out of relatively thin silicone... no idea07:39
wolfspraulthe moulds I know are big blocks07:39
wpwraki was thinking of a maybe 5 mm thick blob of silicone into which the pcb (or a suitable victim pcb/object) is stuck07:40
wpwrakso it would hug the board very closely07:40
wpwrakof course, it wouldn't really be a case, but perhaps good enough for pioneering experimenters07:41
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: nlove merged in changes from love 0.7.0 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/54e3ee007:48
bartbeswolfspraul: there ;)07:48
wolfspraulgreat!!!07:48
wolfsprauldo we have some games?07:48
bartbesheh, I did not write them..07:50
bartbesso yeah, it's very much a lack of users07:50
bartbesI haven't been able to track down any caanoo users though07:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: for the "early adopter" wpan devices, i suppose you can credibly make them pass as experimental stuff and avoid fcc/ce ?07:51
wpwrak(not sure what the exact term for "experimental" would be in this case. kit ?)07:51
wolfsprauloh sure07:51
wolfspraulI am not worried about fcc, you know I like to find out the REAL STORY anyway...07:52
wpwrakperfect07:52
wpwrakheh ;-)07:52
wolfspraulI follow the law, always have, always will, forever and ever.07:52
wolfspraulnow we can start to work :-)07:52
wpwrakwhat quantity do you envision ?07:53
wolfspraulhe07:53
wolfspraul:-)07:53
wpwraklemme dig out a recent bom quote ...07:53
wolfspraulI haven't looked at it yet.07:53
wolfspraulI mean we have 2 boards as well07:53
wpwrak(database is a few weeks old)07:53
wolfspraulas for how many, it depends on... lemme think07:54
wolfspraulhow well we think it will work07:54
wolfspraulhow fast we think we find an improvement that will make anybody buying the old version feel stupid07:54
wolfspraulhow much I can sell them for (I can do everything at cost, but below that is painful, obviously)07:54
wolfspraulwhat else?07:54
wolfspraulcase? certification?07:54
wolfspraulthe price of the run will be 3000 USD at least07:55
wpwrakhere's atusb: http://pastebin.ca/2038148 (prices for 100 units)07:55
wolfspraulI cannot do anything below that, at least in a process that we would feel makes sense as part of our project.07:55
wolfspraulI can do some stuff in shenzhen on the street07:55
wpwrakand atusd: http://pastebin.ca/203815007:55
wolfspraulbut that's not what we want I think07:55
wolfspraulso if we want proper high quality copyleft work, my minimum cost will be ca. 3000 USD07:56
wolfspraulyou can say 1000 USD for PCB, 1000 USD for SMT, 1000 USD for components07:56
wolfspraul(I haven't even looked at the bom yet, just giving you ballpark numbers)07:56
wolfspraulthe PCB can be cheaper, especially if it's 2-layer or so07:56
wpwrakhmm, ~300-500 units then. quite a lot07:56
wolfspraulbut the SMT will easily be higher07:56
wolfspraullowest maybe 800 USD07:57
wolfspraulso let's look at the bom now :-)07:57
wpwrakerr, s/units/bundles/ (one atusb plus one atusd)07:57
wolfspraulthere's always the option of doing things 'on the street'07:57
wolfspraulthen the pcb will be shared with others, some kids will solder it together by hand, etc.07:57
wolfspraulparts will be taken out of whatever spare leftover box flying around07:57
wolfsprauland so on07:57
wolfspraulbut it works07:58
wolfspraul:-)07:58
wolfspraulfor 10 units, that system is unbeatable07:58
wpwraksoldering is a bit tricky in this case, with all the RF and nasty ground planes07:58
wolfspraulthe gnd planes are on the pcb, right?07:58
wolfspraulwhy does it affect soldering?07:58
wpwrakyup07:58
wolfspraulyou mean the amount of solder has to be controlled well? must not spill onto the gnd planes?07:59
wpwrakthe ground acts as a heat sink. so when you try to solder something nearby, the ground will suck away the heat07:59
wolfspraulwell I am describing process. I can do anything 'on the street'. whether it will work, or how well, that's another question.07:59
wolfspraulthe lowest cost there is maybe 150 USD :-)07:59
wpwrakand often enough, the solder just solidifies on the (cool) ground and not on the pins07:59
wolfspraulfor pcb, smt, components, testing (ahem) - everything07:59
wpwrakstill need to figure out testing. the good news is that it'll get a little easier with the new chip.08:00
wolfspraulthat's the bom for 100 units?08:00
wolfspraulyou cut off the total...08:00
wpwrakoh, sorry ... updating08:01
wolfspraulwell it looks like the 1000 usd I was guessing :-)08:01
wolfspraulit's always the same...08:01
wolfspraulso yeah, if we make 100, that means each will cost 30 USD08:01
wolfspraulto make08:01
wolfspraulvery very roughly08:01
wolfspraulof course my time for free, and Adam also (maybe there is room for a little money for Adam, but not much)08:02
wolfspraulif you want to bring the costs down, we have to make more, like you said, maybe only 50008:02
wolfspraulbut that may be too risky08:02
wolfspraulmaybe we discover serious improvements08:02
wolfspraulor we make a case, and need to make a modification to the boards08:03
wpwrakwe probably will08:03
wpwrakthat too08:03
wolfspraulat 500, PCB cost is still 1000 USD, SMT still 1500 USD08:03
wolfspraulfor 100, maybe PCB is a bit cheaper08:03
wolfspraulmaybe even 400 USD, don't know08:03
wolfspraulbut SMT will still be 1000 USD08:03
wolfspraulit's exactly the same kind of trap like with jtag-serial08:03
wolfspraulI bit the bullet there and made 100 in the end.08:04
wolfspraulvery hard08:04
wolfsprauleach one costs me 30 USD, just cash costs08:04
wolfspraul500 would have been much better, but that is just way too risky08:04
wpwrakupdating doesn't seem work. i'll just paste the totals here: atusb  13 items, USD 932.408:04
wolfspraulmaybe we can make 8:10 and usb together08:05
wpwrakatusd 7 items, USD 400.3108:05
wpwrak(that's for 100 units each)08:05
wolfspraulwhy is atusb 500 USD more?08:05
wpwrakyup, that would be the idea. you need them both anyway08:05
wpwrakbecause of it has an MCU, a USB connector, etc.08:05
wpwrakah, and a crystal08:05
wolfspraulboth are 2-layer?08:06
wpwrakyes. 0.8 mm08:06
wolfspraullet's say we make a panel, maybe both atusb and atusd on the same panel?08:07
wolfspraulhey, btw08:07
wolfspraulatusd = secure digital?08:07
wolfspraul:-)08:07
wpwrakdunno. is there any other name ? :)08:07
wolfspraulyou don't want to take the glory of these famous and valuable trademarks, and steal intellectual property, do you?08:07
wolfspraulI was laughing when I got a letter from these intel lawyers once.08:08
wolfsprauland their 'famous' client08:08
wolfspraulthey really write like that08:08
wolfspraulso many things one could reply, but what a waste of time...08:08
wpwrak(panel) you'll probably have something like four of each per panel :) they're not exactly huge08:08
wolfspraulI'm thinking about ATUS-b and ATUS-d08:08
wolfspraulmake ATUS the name08:09
wolfspraulthat cuts right through the problems :-)08:09
wpwraknaw, the basename is atrf :)08:09
wolfspraulthe panel is about cost08:09
wpwraki already did one of the huge renamings08:09
wolfspraulif we can have both atusd and atusb on the same panel, that means only one time smt programming, for example08:09
wolfspraulI mean pick & place programming08:09
wolfspraulah ok08:10
wpwrakyup. they also share many components08:10
wolfspraulso I will just call both boards atrf then08:10
wolfspraulatrf USB version, and atrf 8:10 version?08:10
wolfspraulat = atmel?08:10
wpwrakwhat's 8:10 ? :) i religiously follow the mailing list, but i never saw such a thing mentioned there :)08:10
wpwrakat = atmel, yes08:10
wolfspraulyeah08:10
wolfspraulI started to write, but then didn't want to wake up sleeping dogs.08:11
wolfspraulatrf is the name?08:11
wolfspraul'at' rf sounds cool, I can live with that08:11
wolfspraulit's not at = atmel08:11
wolfspraulit's at = at something08:12
wpwrakatrf is what i use when referring to the whole thing. e.g., for the tools. atrf-id and such.08:12
wolfspraulup to you, I follow your names08:12
wolfspraulso we put both atusb and atusd on the same panel08:12
wpwrakoriginally, i thought i'd also try ti's ccXXXX series. so the naming scheme was intended for at... and cc...08:12
wpwrakthen i found out that TI's chips all have export restrictions08:13
wolfspraulas for how many in the panel, typically you ask the pick&place people first08:13
wpwrak(panel) yes, there ought to be a minimum panel size and it's probably larger than atusb plus atusd08:13
wolfspraulfor example, when it gets too long, the arm that puts the components onto the board may push it down slighly, and lift up on the other side, shifting (unsoldered) components08:13
wolfsprauloh sure, conveyor belt08:13
wolfspraulyou need to have a few mm margin on the sides, and if possible optical mark as 0,0 point08:14
wpwrakalso, atusd is L-shaped, so you probably want two together. maybe 2*atusb + 2*atusd per panel.08:14
wolfspraulyes so anyway, both minimum and maximum size are typically foudn out by talking to the particular smt shop08:14
wpwrakyup. adam should be able to provide some estimates08:14
wolfspraulmy guess would be maybe 4x4 boards or so08:15
wolfspraulif it gets too big it's not good, adds new problems08:15
wolfspraulthe atusb has a connector that extends beyond the edge of the board?08:16
wolfspraulbut atusd has not, right?08:16
wpwrak(names) i guess i'll change them at some point. there are more "SD" references to kill anyway, including a beautiful "uSD-Card" over in kicad-libs :)08:16
wolfspraulthat needs to be considered for panels, so that everything can be soldered before the boards are cut08:16
wpwrakthis is roughly what atusb looks like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg08:17
wolfspraulthe cutting normally will just go all the way through, you cannot cut a pcb when you have a connector on the other side08:17
wolfspraulor at least that adds extra complexities at that step08:17
wpwrak(minus the green cable, minus the 100 mil header at the bottom, and it will be a few mm longer)08:17
wolfspraulnice work08:18
wpwrak(cutting) do as we did at openmoko ? get the board perforated by not completely cut08:18
wolfsprauland then how do you cut them?08:18
wpwrakthanks :)08:18
wolfspraulI'm just describing the most common/best understood/cheapest way08:19
wpwrakhow I cut them ? i cut them before soldering.08:19
wolfspraulso on a panel, you put all connectors that are reaching over the edge of the board pointing outwards08:19
wolfspraulnot somewhere inside the panel08:19
wpwrakhow we "cut" them at openmoko ? dunno for MP. probably manually - you can just break them off at the perforation08:19
wolfspraulok08:19
wolfspraullike I said, I just describe what I think is the normal/cheapest way08:20
wolfsprauldon't break08:20
wolfspraulyes you can, but people try to avoid it08:20
wolfspraulyou cut after reflow & dip08:20
wolfspraulafter everything is on08:20
wpwrakyeah, mechanical stress and such08:20
wolfspraul(if possible)08:20
wolfspraulbut then you cannot cut where you have connectors over the edge of the board08:20
wpwraki can also try to optimize away the usb connector if you want ;-)08:20
wpwraki've done that too ... lemme find it ...08:21
wolfspraulbecause the normal cutters they have (and operators), will just cut all the way through, if you know what i Mean... :-)08:21
wolfspraulbut it's no big deal here, with only atusb having a connector08:21
wolfspraulwe can position it pointing outwards08:21
wolfspraulso maybe let's make 100 of each?08:22
wolfspraulpcb should be... let's say 600 USD (guess)08:22
wolfspraulsmt... 1200 USD08:22
wolfspraulcomponents 1300 USD08:22
wolfspraul3100 USD08:22
wolfspraulyield?08:22
wolfspraulhow should we sell them?08:23
wolfspraulin pairs?08:23
wolfspraulshipping is also a pain, so cheap for fedex08:23
wolfspraulmaybe just throw in a regular mail letter :-) that would be quite hardcore though...08:23
wolfspraulno tracking, no nothing08:24
wolfspraulwhat do you think about making 100 each?08:24
wolfspraulhow many do you need? (of course you get them for free)08:24
wpwrak100 sounds like a reasonable quantity to me08:25
wolfspraul100 each?08:25
wolfspraulor 50+5008:25
wpwrakyup08:25
wolfspraulyes I think so too08:25
wolfspraulI hope you feel good about the design :-)08:25
wolfsprauland I'll just make it, he he08:25
wolfspraulbut no worries, no risk no fun if it doesn't work, I think I made the decision with a clear state of mind08:26
wolfspraulhow many do you need?08:26
wpwrak(sell in pairs) sounds reasonable as well. dunno if people will object if they're "forced" to get one they don't think they want. but we can probably worry about that later as well :)08:26
wolfspraulI'm not so worried about 'forced'08:26
wolfspraulI'm worried to reach people that don't have much money, in the cheapest way possible.08:26
wolfspraulif we have 50 USD fedex cost on top, shipping an item for 20 USD is stupid08:27
wolfspraulit's not about forcing anyone08:27
wpwraki would need maybe 4-5 pairs for myself. have some units for rework and experiments.08:27
wpwrakyes, fedex is the killer here08:27
wolfspraulfor example, if we say 'you can only buy this in 10 pieces', then someone has to step up and organize a little group purchase08:27
wolfspraulif that happens, everybody can save a lot08:27
wpwrakthat's messy08:27
wolfspraulif it does not happen, we shoot ourselves in the foot08:28
wpwrakyou could try the distributors, though08:28
wpwrak(foot) yup08:28
wolfspraulI am just explaining my thinking.08:28
wolfspraulit's not about forcing someone to buy something they don't want. not at all.08:28
wpwraklemme show you the non-connector solution. a minute ...08:28
wolfspraulI can ship them in a regular untrackable letter.08:28
wolfspraulbut that will also be messy.08:28
wolfspraulpeople have to pay first, cc or paypal, and then just wait and pray.08:28
wolfspraulwe can always offer fedex, but that only makes sense if you order 2, or even 4 right away08:29
wolfspraullet's say we sell them for 20 USD a piece?08:29
wolfspraulor 30?08:29
wolfspraulat 30 we could actually recoup all costs, more or less08:29
wolfspraulassuming no big yield problem08:30
wolfspraulok it will be something like that...08:30
wolfspraul20-3008:30
wolfspraulhow many do you need?08:30
wpwrakhere we are: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/pcbusbconn.jpg08:32
wolfspraulah ok08:33
wolfspraulbut which one do you want?08:33
wpwrakit's mechanically a little fragile and you need something (plastic or such) to fatten the board08:33
wolfspraulyes08:33
wolfspraul:-)08:33
wpwrakup to you :)08:33
wolfspraulI think we should start with a 'real' connector08:33
wolfspraulwe don't need to load more and more problems upon us08:33
wolfspraulwe can always optimize this later08:33
wolfspraulagreed?08:34
wpwrak(how many I need) 4-5 pairs08:34
wpwrakokay, real connector08:34
wolfspraulok, 10 each for you, no problem08:34
wpwrakprobably gives nicer ground, too. which rf likes08:35
wolfsprauloh sorry you answered the 4-5 pairs thing above, didn't see it08:36
wpwrak(10 each) pair = atusb + atusd. of course, if you give me 10, i can seed the local area ;-)08:37
wolfspraulwe need to try to recoup some costs08:37
wolfspraul(including you)08:37
wolfspraulso if you think you can sell some (of course keep the cash), then I can send you a few more08:37
wolfspraulup to you08:37
wolfspraulonly if we start giving away left and right, I think we will kill ourselves08:38
wpwrak(shipping) there ought to be regular registered airmail with limited tracking, too. a bit like EMS, but perhaps even simpler (and cheaper)08:38
rohre08:38
wolfspraulroh: hi roh! hope you feel better :-)08:38
rohnaah.. not that well yet. but i cope.08:38
wolfsprauldo you know the ben-wpan aka atrf aka atusd aka atusb project Werner is working on?08:39
wpwrak(give away left and right) well, they're quite cheap :)08:39
rohi know he is doing some rf work08:39
wolfspraulwe are thinking about making some, maybe 100 each (there are 2 types), and thinking about case08:39
wolfspraulit's a 802.15.4 6LoWPAN board08:39
wolfspraulhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg08:39
rohthats still 2.4ghz right?08:39
wpwrakaye08:39
wolfspraulthis is the usb version08:40
roh*sigh*08:40
wolfspraul(minus the serial header)08:40
wpwrakgood global band :)08:40
rohits small08:40
wolfspraulyou don't like 2.4?08:40
wpwraki'll grow it by ~3 mm :)08:40
rohwpwrak: broken band. completely saturated with all kinds of crap.08:40
wolfspraulwpwrak: do you have a pic of the 8:10 version at hand?08:40
wpwrak(atusd) only inserted. lemme snap one of just the board ...08:41
roheven worse than 434 and 868 imho, simple because more people do bandwith via it (wifi)08:41
wolfspraulok, but we want to make this work now... :-)08:42
rohwolfspraul: case... what about a clip on case like most usbsticks use? bottom and top joined by some small noses08:42
wolfspraulyes, for the usb we may be able to find something like that08:42
rohive seen such cases somewhere. will holler if i can remember08:42
wolfsprauloh in Shenzhen there are whole buildings full of them08:42
wolfspraulbut we wanted to introduce these 2 boards to you and see whether you had any idea for cases08:43
wolfspraulwerner has some plans, when he's back he can tell you more08:43
wolfspraulsilicone on wood or something like that08:43
rohheh. then you will have it easier than me. such cases are tricky to get around here08:43
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Shenzhen_markets08:44
kristianpaulIs getopt a *proper* way of process program arguments?08:44
wolfspraulno USB sticks picture, have to take one next time...08:44
rohkristianpaul: much more proper than hand-written parsers08:44
wolfspraulthere are literally, whole buildings filled with them08:44
kristianpaulroh: ;-)08:45
wolfspraulbut still, in parallel to looking for reusable junk, we can think about how to make our own cases08:45
wpwrakhere's an 8:10 version: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusd.jpg08:45
wpwrak(will change a little, but not too much)08:45
wolfspraulyeah, especially for that one08:45
rohha. found a packetmarke. no standing in line.08:46
kristianpaulwolfspraul: (Shenzhen) nice pics, so much to see...08:46
rohwolfspraul: you want with tracking and insurance, right?08:46
rohhmmm.. what about transparent shrink-wrap-tube?08:47
rohas 'case' ?08:47
wolfspraulroh: you mean your shipment to me? if you can send with DHL, sure that's cool08:47
wolfspraulotherwise regular mail should not get lost either, I would think08:47
wpwrak(atusb case) the board is a bit larger (wider and longer) than the usual usb sticks08:47
wolfspraulroh: it's just a heads up now about these boards, but I think Werner and I are quite determined to pull it off. So unless you hide and resists, you will have some of these beauties at raumfahrtagentur in a month or two.08:48
wpwrak(heat-shrink tubing) that could be an option for atusb. would leave one side wide open, though08:48
rohwolfspraul: :) sure.. send them over08:48
wpwraki don't see it for atusd though. shape is too weird.08:48
wolfspraulah nice idea, you mean those normal heat shrink tubes?08:49
rohi think we also got a atmel raven kit around (same transcievers)08:49
rohwolfspraul: quite normal.. let me find a picture08:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: heat-shrink tubing was used in the little jtag dongle that in turn inspired the openmoko debug board08:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: of course, this one had connectors on both sides08:50
wpwrakroh: my thoughts on silicone would basically be to make a tight wrap of silicone, mainly held by friction and elasticity. also easy to remove for rework ;-)08:50
wpwrakroh: wood would enter the picture at the material for the mold. not because it's ideal for a mold, being porous and everything, but it's easy to source and machine08:51
wpwrakroh: now i just need to find a good release agent for wood + silicone08:52
wpwrakthe jtag things with heat-shrink tubing: http://www.amontec.com/jtagkey-tiny-bot-amontec-small.jpg08:53
wpwraks/things/thingy/08:55
rohyeah. exactly08:56
rohhm. mould...  to do what? completely submerse the board in a 'plastic block' ?08:57
wolfspraulkristianpaul: what these pics don't know is the size of it. I estimate 10-20k shops (like the ones pictured there one by one), and maybe 100-200k people working and trading there.08:59
wolfspraulyes, that's a 'k' for the number of shops08:59
rohwpwrak: the rf trace on http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/tmp/atusd.jpg is very funy09:00
roh+n09:00
wpwrakroh: the ideal would be a silicone solution where one could just "dunk" the board and it would form something like a thick glove. repeat a few times for thickness. not sure if this is realistic, though.09:00
rohi mean.. from the balun? to the antenna feeding point via some R or C .. why is the trace so wide? and the gnd so thin?09:00
wpwrakroh: otherwise, make a u-shape mold, fill it with "thick" silicone, then suspend the board in it09:01
wpwrakroh: (trace) the calculators say a 50 R feed line has to be around 60 mil on this kind of board09:02
wpwrakroh: you mean the connection ? the ground has a bigger ground plane underneath. or do you mean the size of the ground area per se ?09:03
wpwrakroh: the board will also get more vias. more like the via density of the atusb board. this is just an older version where i had the wrong number for the minimum via spacing09:04
rohwpwrak: ah i see. (ground plane)09:04
rohhow were these boards made?09:05
rohetched?09:05
wpwrakcnc-cut, then toner transfer, yes09:05
rohso 2 sided?09:05
wpwrakaye09:05
rohvery nice result for home-made stuff09:06
wpwrakthanks :) it took a bit of experimenting :)09:07
rohi can imagine :)09:09
wpwrakoh, and i cheated a little. that old atusd board still has leaded solder. i've switched to lead-free since. so soldering quality has gone down a bit.09:09
wpwrakbut via quality has gone up, since i switched to cnc-drilling them as well and using a wire that would fill the hole completely, to it wouldn't move around when soldering. that used to be a pain.09:10
roh:)09:13
wpwrakbartbes: your posting doesn't mention if you had to use the .INF file that was posted before. may be worth clarifying.10:14
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added kicad-patches/TODO http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/ca2936211:21
wpwrak:-)11:26
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: plplot: many fixes, separate packages for qt,tcl,octave,c++ interfaces http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/fa537a312:32
bartbesI just got confirmed e17 has a fb and directfb rendering backend14:27
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: libgii: initial commit http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0c9d58815:00
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: libggi port http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a7636d815:00
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: libgii: include all the drivers in ipk package and staging dir http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a862cbe15:00
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: libggi: package demo/test programs http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/415b1dd15:00
wpwrakhmm, oil seems to work well as a release agent for silicone. talcum powder is even better, but leaves residues on the silicone. let's see what happens with an oiled circuit submerged in silicone. good that i have so many broken boards to throw away ;-)15:06
wpwrakalso, silicone responds reasonably well to paint thinner, so that may be a way to get the stuff to act a bit more like paint. it doesn't like acetone - builds small chunks in it.15:07
wpwraknow .. what to do with the pc controlling my mill ... suffered what looks like a disk failure. of course, the disk is a maxtor, so it's either the very first failed maxtor in my life, or something else blew ...15:14
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: usd-card.fpd: added distance of contacts base line from card edge http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/3d8829915:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: now ... how to call that 8:10 card in contexts where colons and spaces aren't welcome ?15:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd.brd: increased via density in RF areas http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/475baa115:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: 8-10?15:54
wpwrak8-10-card, 8-10_card, 8-10card ?15:56
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: gnuplot-ggi: A version of gnuplot that draws to the framebuffer via libggi http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/fba3cca15:57
wolfspraulhmm. 8-10card ?15:58
wolfspraulmaybe if it's a filename 8-10_card ?15:58
wpwrakeek. that would be three versions of the same name already. colloquial: "8:10 card", file name: "8-10_card", else: "8-10card"16:01
wpwrakoh, and for "C" identifiers, "8_10_card" ? :-(16:01
Action: wpwrak cherishes the subtle beauty of a simple "uSD" :)16:02
wpwrakthere should be a law that allowed trademarks only on ugly unwieldable names16:02
wpwraks/allowed/allows/16:02
wolfspraulI think 8:10 is fine and will always be clear.16:05
wolfspraulno matter in which form it appears16:06
wpwrakof course, what should go along with it is a technical specification ...16:07
bartbeswait a second17:03
bartbesenlightenment is already packaged17:03
bartbesthe current makefiles for enlightenment disable evas' directfb backend17:08
bartbeshmm it doesn't build17:14
bartbesbut due to the error17:14
bartbesI expect that's because I am running the toolchain in another distro17:14
bartbesnot in the one I usually use17:14
bartbesoh, figured I'd give you an update17:53
bartbesI have successfully compiled eina, eet, evas and now ecore17:54
bartbesand embryo17:54
bartbes:O17:55
bartbesand I ran out of disk space17:55
nebajothmy wife compiled an embryo17:55
bartbesand edje compiled as well18:06
bartbesso did efreet18:06
wpwraknebajoth: would "open source" be a good or a bad thing ? :)18:07
nebajothI have to integrate all commits personally18:09
nebajothfeel free to send me a patch18:09
nebajothbut I reserve the right to reject it18:09
wpwrak;-))18:09
bartbesalright, I got everything to compile except for e17 itself18:38
--- Wed Jan 5 201100:00

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