#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-12-28

qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added pcbnew --fill-all-zones, stricter option semantics http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/dd9db7505:42
zrafawolfspraul: yes, I lost the web page of the fatfingershell. And the web page had a copy of the sources as well IIRC05:47
wolfspraulsaw it :-)05:47
wolfsprauloh well05:47
wolfspraulthose servers are really maintenance heavy, and except for empty promises there is no support to kick them alive and keep them running05:48
wolfspraulif you really have no copy, it might be hard to make it through to the backups, even though they exist of course05:48
wolfspraulhow about google cache? internet archives?05:49
wolfspraulI think they are trying to restructure the virtual machines a little right now, if you are lucky then maybe it might reappear after a little while :-)05:49
zrafainternet archives did not find05:50
wolfspraulwpwrak: ah, hey. I just committed the --fill-all-zones patch05:50
zrafamy backup is a little old, maybe I can survive with that05:50
wolfspraulyeah, sorry about that but I also cannot help.05:50
wolfspraulI also made the checking a bit stricter, I only allow one major command now, and hopefully the problem with stale lock files is also gone.05:51
wolfspraulI guess I will go back to eeschema soon05:51
wolfspraullet me know if you need more in pcbnew05:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: (fill-all-zones) yipee ! and you saw that i had added kicad-patches to eda-tools. perfect !05:54
wolfspraulyes sure, I saw it. great. I committed there (just before you came back)05:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: (more) for now i'm very happy, thanks ! ;-)05:54
wolfspraulAdam posted a great mail about jtag-serial sourcing and production process. I need to read it in detail...05:55
wolfspraulI think this is fantastic... http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-December/006642.html05:56
wolfspraulso much work to document it all :-)05:56
wolfspraulwhen I'm finished with the cmdline options in eeschema and pcbnew, I will definitely bring it live on the server and auto-generate a lot of these files upon commits05:56
wolfspraulI think just the latest version, not as sophisticated as schhist05:57
wolfspraulmaybe something like projects.qi-hardware.com/plots/xue/...05:57
wolfspraul'plots' may not be the best name05:58
wpwraki gues i should give "brdhist" a spin. should be a bit easier than "schhist", because there aren05:58
wpwrakt so many names to track05:58
wolfspraulI think there will be plots, drc/erc reports, visualizations (png/svg)05:58
wpwrakone problem are more external dependencies, especially the .mod files derived from .fpd05:58
wolfspraulah, also bom files, modules position05:59
wolfspraulany good idea for a url name?05:59
wolfspraulwe have /schhist/project right now05:59
wolfspraulmaybe /brdhist/project later05:59
wolfspraulmaybe just /files/project ?05:59
wolfspraulmaybe files is better than plots?05:59
wolfspraulor 'auto' to indicate that they are a bit in flux06:00
wolfspraulso if you link to a .drc file in that url, the file you are linking to may be different 2 months later06:00
wolfspraulso maybe projects.qi-hardware.com/auto/project/...06:00
wpwrakhmm, dunno.06:01
wolfspraulor of course we forget about wasting storage bits, and just create the files for each commit, and keep them in a subfolder with the commit guid/revision06:01
wolfsprauland a 'latest' symlink06:02
wpwrakplus the overview page ?06:02
wolfspraulthat's probably cleaner in terms of linking, but I'm a little worried people will be overwhelmed06:02
wolfspraulof course we can just point to the latest symlink06:02
wolfspraulyeah maybe that's better. keep the auto-generated files for each revision.06:03
wpwraki'm not sure you really need to generate all the production files there. at some point, the person making the production run will probably have to touch kicad anyway. then it's more important to have a good set of local tools (e.g., a Makefile)06:03
wolfspraulI agree, but I want to create those files to lower the barrier of entry into the project in general.06:04
wolfsprauland since I don't know the starting point of the person on the other side, I just create the files as a first step towards them06:04
wpwrakah, one snap with auto-generated files: name changes. right now, the name in revision X depends also on the file's history06:04
wolfspraulalso I don't want to create 'all' files06:04
wpwrak(in schhist)06:04
wolfsprauleither we understand what it's good for, and can recommend/document them, or not generate at all06:04
wolfspraulgenerating junk is no service to anybody, no worries06:05
wolfspraulI will not generate all files only because we have so many command line options now :-)06:05
wolfspraulwell, first decision is whether to generate them only for the latest commit, or for every revision with 'latest' symlink06:06
wolfspraulthen the url name, I'm torn between 'files' and 'auto'. Maybe I still like 'auto' the best.06:06
wolfspraulalso like you said to indicate that those files are not really meant as a stable source for production.06:06
wpwraki think schhist covers pretty much everything you'd want on the schematics side06:07
wpwraknow something similar for the layout, and perhaps svg for "pretty" overviews. maybe DRC/ERC reports.06:08
wolfspraulalso bom & modules position, people may want to peek in there06:09
wolfspraulyou have no idea how often I get stupid questions like "where is the bom?"06:09
wolfspraul"if you have no bom you are not open"06:09
wolfspraulbla bla bla06:09
wolfspraulnot that I am really thinking those people will ever produce anything, but the word 'bom' has made quite the rounds...06:10
wpwrakokay, the bom too, yes :)06:10
wolfspraulwhat I want at the beginning is erc/drc, then some svgs06:11
wpwrakbom is nice to have - gives you a rough idea of what's in this circuit and how expensive it may be.06:11
wolfspraulwhat do you think about creating them (and saving) for each revision, versus only for the latest one?06:11
wpwraki'm not so sure about module positions per se. perhaps a searchable PDF ...06:12
wolfspraulthat's one thing we need to decide06:12
wolfspraulyes correct, searchable is good, also searchable placement PDF06:12
wolfspraulgotta run06:12
wolfspraul(I read the irclogs)06:13
wpwrakhmm, per version could be useful if you want a URL to "pin" a version06:13
wpwrakbeyond that, it's probably not very useful without a proper history mechanism06:13
mthonline translator for datasheet PDFs: http://datasheet-en.or.cz/06:22
mthit seems to use Google for the actual translation, but it gets the text from the PDF automatically06:23
kristianpaulwolfspraul: How was the workshop?08:48
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I didn't go there :-)08:51
kristianpauloh ok08:52
wolfspraulI should have, but I stumbled around the building on 3 different things and plain and simple missed it.08:52
wolfspraulI'm focusing on the cases...08:52
kristianpaulsure :-)08:52
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you don't know how creative (chaotic) this is here...08:52
kristianpaulas chaotic as the streaming i hope ;-)08:53
wolfspraulandres-calderon: I was wondering the other day - why does the Aptina sensor need a separate power supply?09:06
wolfspraulcan't we get the power from the main board power supply and/or from the fpga?09:06
andres-calderonThe sensor does not need a separate PSU. But  is better to place some regulators in the sensor board. Different sensors have different voltages09:11
wolfspraulandres-calderon: different sensor?09:26
wolfspraulthat sounds like we should first make the simplest possible solution just for the mt9m033, get that to work, then think about other sensors09:26
wolfspraulwhatever we can remove that still leaves us with a camera, I'm voting for removing it09:27
andres-calderonwolfspraul:   Putting the LDOs in the second board is the simplest solution, I have  problems with the space.09:31
wolfspraulok I cannot judge whether they logically belong to the Aptina daughterboard, or to the base board09:32
wolfspraulor whether they can be used by other daughterboards in the future, or not09:32
wolfspraulI just wondered about the separate psu...09:32
Action: DocScrutinizer takes off the red hood09:35
andres-calderonwolfspraul: What do you think about this chip? it's so simple to use... but seem expensive. http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=296-19652-1-ND09:39
wpwrakwolfspraul, andres-calderon: one possible approach for simplifying power supplies would be to provide the regulated voltages of the mainboard also to the daughterboard. this assumes that 1) there are enough free pins in the connector(s) and 2) that the regulators on the mainboard aren't already maxed out10:20
wolfspraulyes, that's what I thought10:24
wolfspraulalthough the Aptina sensor needs a number of different voltages, and also analog and digital vdd, or something like that10:24
andres-calderonwpwrak: i agree10:25
wolfspraulandres-calderon: great! :-)10:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: i wonder where the concept of needing separate regulators with the same voltage for analog and digital comes from. e.g., why not simply have an inductor to block current surges and an adequate silo capacitor on the load side of the inductor ?10:30
andres-calderonwpwrak: i agree too. We only cut/paste de reference design10:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: don't ask me.10:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: sorry it's a bit chaotic here. I forgot whether you confirmed that the --fill-all-zones works for you?10:41
wolfspraulI'm back in eeschema now, I want to finish this kicad cmdline stuff asap...10:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: haven't tried --fill-all-zones yet10:43
wpwrak(chaotic) heh, surprise ;-)10:43
wolfspraulok no problem. I will just finish eeschema in the same style.10:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: kicad-patches: completed and extended build instructions http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/d280eab10:50
wpwrakah, this was missing, too10:50
wpwrakhmm. when I run  pcbnew --plot=ps_a4 --ps-pads-drill-opt=none -l Front --mirror atusb.brd10:57
wpwrakit seems to produce the file well enough, but then i get an exit code of 255, which make doens't like10:58
wpwrakdoesn't print any error or such10:58
wpwrakthis seems to be new behaviour10:58
wpwrak--fill-all-zones looks good11:04
wpwrak(exit status 255) also happens with something as simple as  pcbnew --plot=ps atusb.brd11:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/Makefile: move common plot command parts to variable $(PLOT_BRD) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/aae86ca11:06
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/Makefile: add --fill-all-zones to PLOT_BRD, to make sure zones are filled http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/228eb2011:06
wpwrakokay, gotta run11:06
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: BQ2407[0,1] component has been added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/f66a31c11:25
wolfspraulwpwrak: ah OK [255] I fix that thx11:26
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: schematic battery charger draft http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/d81ffca12:04
kristianpaulHello suschman12:28
suschmando you know if mirko is in berlin now?12:28
kristianpaulno idea12:28
zrafaM_Rojas: hey papa13:22
M_Rojasque haces man!13:22
zrafajaja.. estas mejor?13:23
M_Rojassi, recien hoy me entro una lija ...13:23
zrafajaja.. ultra off topic nuestra charla :P13:24
M_Rojashace una rato vuelvo de comer ....13:24
zrafaM_Rojas: let me do some introductions.. wpwrak is werner if you did not realize. kristianpaul is from Colombia and he is hacking gps on nn13:25
M_RojasI will keep reading, and try to learn :-)13:26
zrafaM_Rojas: wolfspraul is not here, but he is the guy making the nns in China.. xiangfu is in charge of the nn software, and other guys like me are doing mess :)13:26
M_Rojasyesterday I was reading the logs ...13:27
kristianpaulAnd there is more people around hacking openwrt, i just cant remenber name and nick equivalent :S13:34
Action: kristianpaul mejor ni pregunta ;-)13:35
M_Rojaslija = hunger13:36
kristianpaulM_Rojas: larsc is kernel hacker for the nn13:36
M_Rojasok, great13:36
kristianpaulM_Rojas: i guess you from argetina as well? :-)13:37
M_Rojasnow I know some of the characters ...13:38
wpwrakphew. ups is charging. i'm trying my luck again. had 4 brown-outs within 24 hours yesterday. enough is enough.15:42
larscsuschman: depends on which mirko you are looking for15:42
zrafakristianpaul: yes, he is15:43
zrafawpwrak: you will be with the people on rivadavia street reclaiming :)16:32
wpwrakzrafa: naw, ->I<- will sit happily at my PC, with the UPS gracefully covering the interruptions :)16:33
wpwrakzrafa: the interruptions are all brown-outs. just long enough to reset some of my PCs (not all of them), some of my lab instruments, and sometimes the CNC mill.16:34
M_Rojasmmm another brown-out16:39
M_RojasI hope it does not extend to the entire city ...16:40
wpwraknaw, this was just the cablemodem needing a restart. it does that every few weeks or so.16:44
M_Rojaswell come back :-)16:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: how much power you need i your lab?17:05
wpwrakkristianpaul: don't remember :) i once added all the maximum values - and the result was that the apartment's fuse would barely hold :)17:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: of course, real-life consumption is a bit lower :)17:08
kristianpauli just saying because you mentioned UPS is not enougt for brown-outs?17:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: the one i had made them only worse. now i'm trying a different and hopefully better one.17:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: well, i will try as soon as the next brownout hits. (which should be within a few hours) no point in cutting power unnecessarily ;-)17:10
kristianpaultry as google UPS-like arrange per each server ;-)17:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: i thought of it ... but that would just add some 5+ systems that each add a bit more consumption, that each have their own failure mode, and that each can just break. if you seek reliability, complexity is bad :)17:15
larsclekernel_27C3: where exactly are you hiding at the c3?17:18
lekernel_27C3saal 217:18
lekernel_27C3just in front of the door17:18
wpwraklekernel_27C3: surrounded by fans, i hope :-)17:19
lekernel_27C3i gave up the milkymist stuff in the lounge for a while. the video camera working perfectly in one room and extremely unstably in the lounge was too hard on my nerves17:19
wpwrakand groupies ;-)17:19
lekernel_27C3I should change the project's slogan to "bugs that blow your mind"17:20
kristianpaulhaha :-)17:20
lekernel_27C3maybe it was just that all this equipment the lounge soundsystem is made of was sending some kind of interference17:21
wpwrakMurphyMist :)17:21
lekernel_27C3tried changing cables, power supplies, milkymist boards, that crap persisted17:21
lekernel_27C3it's the first time such a thing happens17:22
lekernel_27C3i've used the video input and this camera for quite a while before, and it worked perfectly17:22
kristianpaul(interference) good ! you are good for FCC and related certifications :-)17:22
lekernel_27C3no idea17:22
kristianpauls/good for/good to go17:22
lekernel_27C3maybe it was the camera17:22
lekernel_27C3maybe not17:22
lekernel_27C3who knows17:22
lekernel_27C3go to the c3 and debug it yourself, but that crap wants to make me smash a dozen milkymist boards on the floor17:23
kristianpaullekernel_27C3: how was workshop btw?17:23
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: http://david.gnedt.eu/blog/wl1251/17:56
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: so you have wlan now. congratulations ! :)17:57
DocScrutinizerwl1251 has monitor mode and packet injection now17:58
DocScrutinizerthought you might be somewhat interested17:58
DocScrutinizerthough I'm aware it's been Andy who wrote some drivers for Aircrack or something similar18:00
wpwrakah, to be honest, just so-so at the moment. what i'd *really* like to know is why the USB design that i've already used something like seven times without a flaw all of a sudden falls apart.18:00
DocScrutinizerplease elaborate18:01
DocScrutinizer(btw was smiling when I seen your name bottom of fsck.vfat manpage :-)  )18:02
wpwrakthe atusb board. the board resets quite often - sometimes not for something like half an hour, but sometimes continuously18:02
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: PVQFN-N20 footprint component added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/9a4952218:02
wpwrak(fsck.vfat) ah, sins of the youth ;-)18:02
DocScrutinizerit still has too few diagnostic printout18:03
wpwrak(atusb) communication per se seems to be fine. the power rails a are great. all of them. not a single glitch to be found.18:03
DocScrutinizerlinky to schem?18:03
wpwrak(atusb) yet the bastard keeps on resetting.18:03
DocScrutinizer(no idea what's atusb)18:04
DocScrutinizerhmmmmmm, is there a cummulative comprehensive pdf somewhere?18:05
wpwrak(fsck, diag printout) ah ? i back when i wrote it (called dosfsck), it actually ran circles around M$'s chkdsk (sp ?). fixed quite a lot of things where chkdsk would just deliver the "coup de grace"18:06
DocScrutinizerahh the second link?18:06
DocScrutinizerwhat *is* it?18:06
DocScrutinizeri.e whats at other end of USB?18:07
DocScrutinizerof PCB18:07
wpwrakit's an ieee 802.15.4 usb dongle18:07
wpwrakplus into a pc/laptop/whatever18:07
DocScrutinizerI see18:08
wpwrakNB: the usb side is basically identical to idbg-gta02, idbg-ben, cntr old, cntr new, a previous atusb design, and some more boards i made. all of them work great.18:08
DocScrutinizerwhich part resets? the USB controller?18:09
wpwrak(in some i had to change the varistors, though. once tried bigger ones but their capacitance was too high)18:09
wpwrakyes, the usb controller18:09
DocScrutinizerRF feedback?18:10
DocScrutinizerwhat's TX power?18:11
wpwrakRF should be quite asleep at that tome18:11
wpwrakmaximum tx power would be 3 dBm18:11
wpwrakbut the rails are eerily quiet. no weird noise. no glitch in sight.18:12
DocScrutinizerF326 datasheet? PCB layout?18:13
wpwrakbest if you check out the project. then everything is very easy to access.18:13
DocScrutinizermaybe even a photo of a^HTHE prototype?18:13
wpwrakcoming ..18:13
DocScrutinizerno spece left on HDD, sorry18:14
wpwrakfor checkout: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/help/18:14
wpwrak(space) delete some porn ;-)18:14
DocScrutinizermuhaha, I stream those18:14
DocScrutinizeranalog live stream ;-)18:15
DocScrutinizereven 3D18:15
wpwrakhere's a picture. alas, a bit dark. http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/nemesis.jpg18:15
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: IC charger inserted in the PCB http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/6cf11e518:16
DocScrutinizerwhat's that green wire?18:16
wpwraka probe, for checking one of the rails18:16
wpwrak(funny, everyone asks about that one :)18:17
DocScrutinizerbackplane is all GND?18:17
DocScrutinizer(except antenna area)18:18
wpwrakseveral gnd zones, some traces18:20
wpwrakRF is picky about ground, says the documentation, so it gets one for RF, one for RF power, and one for the crystal.18:21
DocScrutinizerno linky to atmel's F326 pdf?18:21
DocScrutinizerif that's atmel18:21
wpwrakhttp://www.silabs.com/Support Documents/TechnicalDocs/C8051F326.pdf18:22
wpwrakit's silabs18:22
wpwrakthe transceiver is from atmel18:22
wpwrakif you check out the project, then you can  make dsv  and then  dsv mcu  or  dsv txrx  :)18:22
DocScrutinizer"keep the USB shield GND isolated from the device GND" ;-)18:24
DocScrutinizer[9] nRST/C2CK is NC??18:26
wpwrak(gnd separation) i just do what intel say :) the device doesn't connect to any other sort of ground18:27
DocScrutinizer"" *RESET* Connect 1 - 5k pull-up to VDD ""18:27
wpwrak(reset) should be okay. lemme check ..18:27
wpwrak(pull-up) where did you read this ?18:28
DocScrutinizeralso seems silabs suggests 4.7u + 0.1u for VDD buffer18:28
DocScrutinizerfig 1.418:28
wpwrakah, interesting. let's try this :)18:30
DocScrutinizeryou're welcome18:30
wpwrakpage 60, section 7.3 says "maybe". but that could of course be one of the "be" cases ...18:31
wpwrakthis of course still leaves the mystery why the other board wouldn't even reliably get to the end of flashing. (the reset pin is driven in this case) but maybe they're beset by different problems.18:32
DocScrutinizeranother spook in my mind is clock18:34
wpwrakmcu clock comes from usb.18:34
DocScrutinizermech coupling from 16MHz xtal. Or instabilities arise from sth else18:34
wpwrakthe rf clock runs too, and it's stable18:35
DocScrutinizermcu clk comes from USB??18:35
wpwrak(well, stable on the scope. didn't torture-test it)18:35
wpwrakwell, internal rc osc that's synchronized with usb18:35
DocScrutinizeryou're sure it's an RC osc?18:36
DocScrutinizernot some mechanical tuned element18:36
DocScrutinizeraka resonator18:37
DocScrutinizersorry too short a time to digest all 140 pp18:37
DocScrutinizeranyway I see [26] XTAL2 at very least. NC on your circuit18:38
wpwrakhmm. data sheet doesn't specify the physics of the internal oscillator.18:38
DocScrutinizerif that is actually a xtal driver IO, then it could catch up noise18:38
DocScrutinizerI'd suggest you have a second look into silab's word on that one18:39
wpwrak"Unused port pins should be left floating", fig 1.3 or 1.418:40
wpwrakand this appears to include the xtal pins18:40
DocScrutinizerif that's also a "may (need GND/foo)" then consider that18:40
wpwrakthe chip is designed to not need a crystal, so i don't think they's miss that one18:40
DocScrutinizernah, but a random bogus signal catched by the floating pin might confuse hell out of clock generation18:41
DocScrutinizerI'd need to study the ยง about that optional external xtal18:42
DocScrutinizerI'm afk now though. Feel free to ping me with results or further questions :-) always appreciate that18:43
wpwrakthanks a lot ! it's at least a place i hadn't considered yet. let's see how it turns out ...18:44
kristianpaulmissing xtal, hmm thats look fairly probable18:58
kristianpaulno as probable or why my sythesis tool is ignoring some of my wirings.. :S18:59
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: try setting P0.3 output-pushpull19:42
DocScrutinizerI don't think that'll fix anything, but it shouldn't hurt anyway19:43
kristianpaul output != inout20:43
kristianpauland the whole evening lost because of it.. :/20:43
kristianpaulamazing, the guys from the NAMURU project implemented an accumulator in FPGA instead of doing FFT it seeems21:43
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: i already set all unused i/os to 0, so they all have a defined state (provided that i make it this far)23:22
DocScrutinizerhmm, was only a wild guess of mine. I'd also expect you need to explicitly ENable xtal2 function od P0.323:32
DocScrutinizerthough a fist quick scan across the register of the datasheet and a few tables didn't reveal the exact bit in any config register23:33
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: anyway the nRESET thing looks much more plausible to me23:34
DocScrutinizerI guess you doublechecked all solderpoints already23:35
wpwrakgrmbl. now the thing acts weird in another way.23:43
wpwrak(ext osc) page 77. it's one of the CLKSEL values23:44
wpwrakthe chip doesn't thave a full xtal osc, just a clock input. the full xtal osc would be in the larger f320/f321. (dsv f320)23:45
wpwrakthe problem i see now are wrong voltages. in particular, VDD at VUSB. that doesn't look healthy at all.23:46
wpwrakthere's no short i can detect, though.23:46
DocScrutinizersoldr an LED on the thing!23:48
DocScrutinizereven 2, one for plain power (VDD via series R), and one that's a blinkenlight from the processor23:49
wpwrakit has a led :)23:51
wpwraknaw, i can measure VDD easily enough23:52
DocScrutinizer(I got a baggy with a dozen wired SMT LEDs here for such purposes ;D )23:52
wpwrakit also does its weirdness when connected to a lab supply. current it perfectly calm.23:52
wpwraks/it p/is p/23:53
wpwraki don't like the 5 V on the VDD rail at all.23:54
wpwrakthe other board i have puts about 3.577 V there. still a bit high, but within limits.23:55
DocScrutinizertypo: RPF23:58
DocScrutinizeractually 5V on VDD looks insane to me, that's not REGIN / VBUS23:59
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