#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-12-21

jyromanhi00:20
jyromanCan anyone tell me about iMic?00:20
jyromanwould it affect the quality of my headset's mic input?00:21
kyakxiangfu: hi! i see you solved that by fixing feeds svn revision?02:54
xiangfukyak: but I am not sure if this is a good idea.02:55
xiangfukyak: maybe write a script file is better. like ./build 2010-12-14, it's will download the VERSIONS file from downloads.qi-hardware.com02:56
xiangfuthen checkout packages to particular revision.02:56
kyakthis might be good to reproduce the release build02:57
kyakbut what if someone wants an edge build?02:58
xiangfufollow the build steps, then he on his own risk. :)02:59
kyaki think it is time that we created feeds-sad :)03:02
xiangfukyak: we nned add "./build 2010--12-14" function to "data/qi_lb60/scripts/build",  or include feeds.conf (with revision) by image release03:06
xiangfus/nned/need03:06
xiangfuI think  add "feeds.conf" to images files is better. since we have "config"03:09
xiangfuwolfspraul: kyak: today I take a look at ImageBuilder, ToolChain and SDK, I think we only need SDK.03:15
xiangfuIB, don't have toolchain, only packages and rootfs files.03:16
xiangfuSDK is the superset  of toolchains03:16
xiangfuImageBuilder only have binary files. we can not compile packages in ImageBuilder.03:17
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: mv byobu, nanoterm to terminal sectionadd ctronome, emacs, netsurf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/34b0b0c03:27
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: rename terminal to terminals http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ae795f003:27
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gnuchess: change the install dir to /usr/bin http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/1e030c203:27
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: NanoMap: display userage when start http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/79a63f303:27
kyakxiangfu: yes, i think you are right03:42
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add ikog, remove primes. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/c9e5d6103:59
xiangfukyak: I test compile package in SDK. package compile fine. I just don't know if the SDK can generate the rootfs.tar.gz/ubi ?04:00
xiangfukyak: there is full rootfs in "OpenWrt-SDK-xburst-for-Linux-x86_64-gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.30.1/staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.30.1/root-xburst"04:07
xiangfukyak: seems no makefile entry for generate rootfs.tar.gz/ubi. :(04:07
kyakxiangfu: i never really played with those.. i tried once with SDK but there were some errors04:09
kyakxiangfu: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2010-11-19.log.html04:10
kyakif you search for "sdk" you'll find some discussion04:11
xiangfukyak: hmm.. ImageBuilder is not superset of SDK, I think.04:15
xiangfuhttp://wiki.openwrt.org/oldwiki/BuildingPackagesHowTo04:59
xiangfu[About the OpenWrt SDK] ^05:00
wolfspraulxiangfu: hmm, interesting [about sdk]05:58
wolfspraulseems even openwrt people don't know what the different tools are for05:59
wolfspraulthat probably tells us something about the quality of those tools, unless we haven't found the people yet that stand behind them and use them themselves05:59
wolfspraulmaybe you also ask on the openwrt devel list05:59
wolfspraulsomeone must know what these tools are for, and which one is the best maintained...05:59
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes. I have tried #openwrt in IRC. will send email to openwrt list.06:00
bartbesso, gforth guy?10:36
kristianpaulnot me :)10:36
kristianpaulwhy you dont write to the list?10:36
bartbesI just want to show him a nice forth program I found10:41
bartbesit's a spreadsheet application10:41
bartbesgforth guy?14:14
bartbeswhatever, I'll link again14:15
bartbeshttp://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/programs/mini-spreadsheet.fs14:15
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: removed AVR and unavailable PSU components http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/4df5db017:02
bartbesso ehm17:14
bartbesare there any windows drivers yet?17:14
wpwrakfor what ?17:15
bartbesfor the ben?17:15
bartbesthe ethernet gadget, specifically17:15
bartbesbecause my sd card is partitioned, so that doesn't help either..17:15
wpwraki think this is a more-or-less general protocol. the "less" part are flaws in the windows implementation.17:15
wpwrakbut it may be worth a try. at least something should work.17:16
bartbesI just plugged it in17:16
bartbesno drivers17:16
bartbeshence why I asked for some17:16
wpwrakthere's nothing ben-specific about this17:17
bartbeswell yeah, but I figured I wouldn't be the first...17:18
wpwraki remember from openmoko that ethernet-over-usb sort of worked, but with problems17:18
wpwrakthat is, with windows17:19
bartbesas long as I can transfer a file over it, or get access to the internet I'm fine17:19
wpwrak(some versions there of)17:19
bartbesit's not like I plan to do this often17:19
bartbesI just don't feel like rebooting17:19
wpwrakoh, i'm sure that, if you get it to work once, it'll also work the next 1000 times ;-))17:19
wpwrakmaybe ask on the list ? see if there are still any windows users left :)17:20
bartbesI'll reboot before I get answers..17:21
bartbesoh nice17:21
bartbesI found a time limited demo driver17:21
bartbes(4 hours per boot)17:21
bartbesfortunately it reboots after 2 hours anyway17:21
bartbes:P17:21
wpwrakthe windows world is so full of junk ;-)17:22
bartbessure is17:22
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/b0c94d817:25
bartbeswell, I guess it worked..17:26
bartbesalright17:28
bartbesI can ping my comp17:28
bartbesand the other way around17:28
bartbesgreat17:28
bartbesash: /usr/libexec/sftp-server: not found17:30
bartbesunable to initialise SFTP: could not connect17:30
bartbesI got that while trying scp17:30
bartbesah, that's putty, apparently17:32
bartbesI had to use a switch17:33
zrafanice harald words :(18:58
lekernelzrafa: ?19:01
zrafalekernel: during 2008 harald suggested to use projects.openmoko.org and he said :19:06
zrafa"The other issue is one of 'reliability' and is one of the reasons why I19:06
zrafapersonally don't host any of my projects at sourceforge or the like.  Who19:06
zrafatells you that they will still provide this serviec tomorrow?  What if they19:06
zrafachange to a paid-for model?  Also, some of those sites use advertisement (which19:06
zrafais extremely ugly).  Also, the big project hosting sites are creating19:06
zrafasingle-points-of-failure, and we've already seen a massive security breach at19:06
zrafasourceforge in the past.19:06
zrafa"19:06
zrafalekernel: so I hosted a tiny project at projects.openmoko.org (well, just the web page of the project)19:07
zrafalekernel: today, harald said:19:07
zrafa"Yes, it is related.  However, the reason for the downtime is the19:07
zrafafact that nobody is maintaining the projects.openmoko.org installation19:07
zrafaanymore, and it is running a machine with such old OS + software that19:07
zrafafor simple security reasons we had to take it down.19:07
zrafaI wish there was a different choice, but we are out of options."19:07
zrafalekernel: so projects.openmoko.org is down and I do not have access to my web page19:08
lekernelimo the main issue, especially with today's distributed version controls, is time wastage on trivial sysadmin tasks19:08
lekernelthat's why github and the like are nice19:08
zrafalekernel: now I would like to get that tiny web page mines and to upload to sourceforge at least19:08
zrafalike I was thinking to do from the beggining19:08
zrafabut no access. We will see19:08
lekernelbetter take the risk to have to spend 1 hour moving your repository in case github disappears (with an small probability) than to spend 7 hours right away setting up an equivalent (and in practice often inferior) service19:09
lekernelsourceforge sucks, use github19:09
zrafaThe real problem is that nobody is maintaining the virtual machine of projects.openmoko.org it seems.19:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: most other combinatorial functions should work too !!19:45
kristianpaulhttps://github.com/lekernel/llhdl/blob/master/designs/gates/Makefile19:45
kristianpaulthat was taken from #milkymist19:45
wpwrakzrafa: maybe ask roh. i'm sure he has as backup lying around somewhere.21:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: what does "work" mean ? can be parsed ? or can be synthesized ? :)21:04
kristianpaulwpwrak: synthetized then p&r by ngbuild (xilinx tool)21:07
wpwrakah, one more missing link then21:07
kristianpaulstep by step :-)21:08
kristianpaulwell i'm just repliny from what i read in mm channel :-)21:08
kristianpaulactually i want push you get a M1 as well :-)21:13
kristianpaulif you dont already21:13
wpwraknope, don't have one so far21:16
kristianpaulThe example is made to be be just make upload to the board :)21:17
kristianpauldamn, great things are coming this year :-)21:17
kristianpaulhe !21:17
kristianpaulhey*21:17
kristianpaulseems i got my sync register finally to work21:17
kristianpaullets see21:17
kristianpaulhmm i think is posible use llhdl with my avnet and /or sie board or CPLD... due p&r is still done by xilinx sofware..21:20
kristianpaulhmm21:20
kristianpaulthis signal is connected to multiple drivers21:22
kristianpaulargg again..21:22
kristianpaulhmm it synthesise now21:38
xiangfukristianpaul: hi I just send one email to openwrt mailing list. try to understand the how to use ImageBuilder, SDK, toolchain, then we maybe can write a wiki page on how to use them.21:41
xiangfuwe see how openwrt people reply :)21:41
kristianpaulcool !21:42
kristianpauli relly believe in owrt simplicity, and SDK is  nice word ;-)21:43
kristianpaulha it syncs, but now i have two sync indicators21:43
kristianpaulxiangfu: Thanks !21:44
xiangfukristianpaul: i can sure SDK can compile test new package. but not sure if it can build rootfs. :(21:44
kristianpaulxiangfu: i remenber i asked that in owrt-devel channel, and got an aswer related to look at the code ! ;-)21:45
kristianpaulxiangfu: (can build rootfs) is okay, if m rootfs is stable enought why i need change it?, what should be worring is not able to compile sofware easilly for it21:46
kristianpauli think thats the rule for jlime sofware, isnt zrafa ?21:46
kristianpaul(rootfs is stable enought why i need change it?)21:46
xiangfukristianpaul: hmm.. I have check the code. seems we can not build rootfs by the "make ....", but I want make sure it with openwrt people.21:48
xiangfuwe need well document the "SDK" :)21:48
xiangfukristianpaul: BTW, I found all rootfs files are just there in "SDK", just there is no "entry" in Makefile for create the rootfs.ubi :)21:49
kristianpauloh21:49
wpwrak(rootfs) why not just build it from packages ?22:10
zrafakristianpaul: rootfs: yes. For me, one nice thing is to have the bootstrap rootfs. It is really small. Then you just can build your own rootfs installing packages from repo. All is there. IF you would like to have a rootfs with X and icewm, you just install bootstrap and install on, the proper packages from repo (X, icewmm, etc). If you just want a rootfs based on console applications.. you install bootstrap and then install from repo all the console appl22:15
zrafaIt would be: a minimal rootfs (bootstrap) which just boot and give you a shell. ANd then you need a complete repository full of packages ready to install. THen you can have different scripts or Makefiles to build different kind of rootfs using that. Sure, OE does that, openwrt does that, etc.. But all of them has their own rules, which are hard to port between those development systems.22:19
zrafakristianpaul: another ugly thing I see is when the upstream development system you use change something, then you find problems to build new rootfs, to use preivous packages built, to run applications which previously worked but no now that upstream changed lib-X.. etc. I like one stable thing. And for me, it means that I am comfortable with something to play. And here that means that I have a huge repository ready, built, useful. I will change next year,22:25
zrafayou can have a lot of fun building the rootfs of your dreams because you are not worried about software, you are worried about how well it is set or how nice your applications look.22:26
zrafaI will change next year=maybe I will change IT next year22:29
kristianpauli see this cycle:  devel base rootfs> test got stable and freeze > compile non esencial packakes, get it work with current rootfs > imrprove those apps > enjoy22:30
kristianpaulafter enjoy time will pass until somebody got bored and want a new rootfs (if this really happens ;-))22:31
zrafakristianpaul: if somebody got bored and want a new rootfs, he can take bootstrap and install on that packages he wants for his new rootfs. Nothing will break, because you are using the same repo and the same bootstrap.22:32
kristianpaulhmm22:33
kristianpaulgood point22:33
kristianpaulnow how libs influence all this?22:33
zrafakristianpaul: when I say "install on that packages" I am not saying "download, build and install", I am saying "install the package.ipk" from repo, which is already built22:34
zrafakristianpaul: all the libs on the same repo are okey, you could install all of them and the system will not break22:34
kristianpaulare libs finally, thats truth22:35
zrafakristianpaul: the bootstrap has minimal libs, the basic libs for init, shell/busybox, whatever.22:35
kristianpaulujum22:35
kristianpaulowrt have great future and relly on SDK sucess i think22:36
zrafai would like to have a debian or fedora repo for mobile devices. Then -> FUN22:37
zrafawell, there is  fun porting and fixing things when these do not build or needs some twicks for mobile devices. But it would be nicer if all the repo is ready and you just use your dreams to use the repo properly, building different kind of rootfs which you know will work.22:39
wpwrakzrafa: (rootfs) with opkg-target, you can go even one step further back and generate the rootfs from scratch. all you need are a few system directories and a small number of config/script files.22:40
kristianpaulwpwrak: (scratch) upstream? or local sources?22:40
zrafakristianpaul: we are confusing "building rootfs" with building (compiling) software22:41
kristianpaulhmm yes22:42
zrafakristianpaul: I mean, repo is there.. all is built, you will not build (compile) software22:42
kristianpaulzrafa: what i will build then?22:42
zrafawpwrak: yes, you are right :) opkg-target could be used for building the rootfs from scratch22:43
zrafakristianpaul: you will build your rootfs :)22:43
zrafakristianpaul: you will use opkg-target on your pc, you will tell opkg-target to install on some dir the packages (from repo) : eglibc, init, bash, etc..22:43
kristianpaulin that sense build = copy and arrange bianries and config files??22:43
zrafakristianpaul: all of them are packages already built (packages.ipk)22:44
zrafabuild = install packages22:44
kristianpauloh i was thinking other thing22:44
zrafaand maybe yes, set some config files or things like a wallpaper if you use some GUI22:44
zrafa(just to tell you an example)22:44
zrafakristianpaul: now, are you following the idea? :)22:45
zrafawell, bed time22:46
kristianpaulyes22:46
zrafaI need to dream :)22:46
kristianpauloh sure 00:47 there !22:47
kristianpauln8 then :)22:47
zrafacya22:47
wpwrak(build from scratch) i did it with openmoko: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/myroot/23:12
wpwrakthis is the script that puts together a rootfs (with a fair amount of stuff, very shell-oriented): http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/myroot/werner.myroot23:13
wpwrakand this would be /sbin/init on this system: http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/myroot/werner.init23:13
wpwrak(and that's all there is in terms of configuration specific to this device/rootfs. there's a bit more general setup in the "myroot" script)23:15
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