#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-12-13

xiangfularsc: it that kernel dim the screen where there is no input in keyboard?01:32
kyakxiangfu: thinking about dimming in gmenu2x? :)01:57
xiangfukyak: yes.02:04
xiangfukyak: seems there is no dimming in gmenu2x. but it's ok. I just want document why the screen don't dim in gmenu2x :)02:04
xiangfukyak: btw. me and yi testing this image: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/image-full_system-12122010-1400/02:06
xiangfukyak: I want use this one as the next openwrt release.02:06
kyakif this gets documented, maybe it's half of problem solving02:06
kyakxiangfu: i'm always on the latest image :) though it's not full02:07
xiangfukyak: since the GMU/bash can dim the screen, but gmenu2x. so I think there is something wrong with the gmenu2x.02:11
xiangfunothing about kernel.02:11
kyaki think there is a code inside GMU that's responsible for screen dimming02:13
kyakbecause it happens faster than when just idling in ash02:14
xiangfukyak: yes. I just found that.02:14
xiangfugmu. write /sys/class/lcd/gpm940b0-lcd/lcd_power02:14
xiangfukyak: then I will just document that 'gmenu2x' don't support dim screen. :)02:16
kyakmaybe we could use a daemon, like triggerhappy to monitor /dev/event* and then dim the screen, if necessary02:19
kyakindependent on the application02:19
kyakmaybe triggerhappy is already capable of that?02:20
xiangfukyak: I don't think so.02:30
xiangfukyak: do you use the ""--utf8-output"" in sdcv ?02:43
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: sdcv: add --utf8-output paramer http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/397ad4e02:44
kyakxiangfu: both --utf8-output and --utf8-input02:50
andres-calderonwolfspraul: Hi07:23
andres-calderonwolfspraul: The current BOOKSHELF  include all chips (except the CIS)07:25
andres-calderonwolfspraul:  Missing all pasives ... (this work is very boring).07:26
andres-calderonI think that  in the future we can connect the BOOKSHELF file to the wiki07:28
wolfspraulandres-calderon: hi07:34
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add emacs http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1790d4508:19
wolfspraulwpwrak: you there?08:47
wpwrakgood morning :)09:04
wpwrakandres-calderon: ah, don't worry about the standard passives. they're highly replacable anyway.09:06
wolfspraulwpwrak: I just saw Adam's mail on the list09:06
wolfspraulI did a little boom & dsv session with Adam last week, but I think we need to give a little more guidance and feedback otherwise it may go off in strange directions.09:06
wpwrakandres-calderon: only hif you have something particularly odd. ah, diodes are often interesting, too, e.g., for their reverse current09:06
wolfspraulbut I think Adam is onto that task now, good! :-)09:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: (session) great !09:07
wpwrakchecking the list ..09:07
wpwrakah, i think i understand what he means09:10
wpwrakputting the component reference as an alias is a band-aid for sure. but since we don't have the proper connection through boom yet, i think it's a nice idea. only takes a moment to remove when the "real thing" is there.09:12
wpwrakit shouldn't interfere with the workflow either ... you'd look up the data sheet with dsv while reading the schematics. so you ought to know what part you need. the data sheet just explains how the part(s) work(s).09:15
wpwrak(guidance) yes, agreed09:15
wpwrakwe also need a bit more real life experience with the whole thing :)09:17
wolfspraulwpwrak: Ornotermes was chatting to me about his Arduino-like Linux board09:28
wolfspraulI think Xue may be the closest :-)09:29
wolfspraulafter testing Milkymist One boards for 2 weeks I am more than ever convinced that this is the right path09:29
wolfspraulthe run was a big success by the way, speaking as the manufacturer for now (boards haven't reached customers yet)09:30
wolfspraulwe learnt a lot, and produced 35 fully working boards (run of 40)09:30
wpwrakhow big was the yield ?09:31
wolfspraulwill send a detailed report asap, hopefully tomorrow09:31
wpwrakwhee !09:31
wpwrakvery good !09:31
wolfspraulwell it was very messy of course09:31
wpwrakas one would expect for a fist run :)09:31
wolfspraula slight euphemism, well you know me, when I say "we learnt a lot" :-)09:31
wolfspraulhe he09:31
wpwrak(right path) what ? xue as arduino-like ?09:31
Ornotermescould one change the fpga configuration at runtime?09:32
wolfspraulno, Ornotermes wants to have an Arduino-like board, but with more power and running Linux09:32
wolfspraulhe doesn't like SIE because it has an fpga09:32
wolfspraulof course one could make an arduino-like board with just Ingenic, but the beauty of Arduino is in the shields, tools, documentation, etc.09:33
wolfspraulcopying all that is nonsense, I think Arduino makes sense exactly as it is today09:33
wolfspraulbut from our perspective, I'd say that 'Arduino-like board with more power' is Xue09:34
wpwrakah, bearstech are getting into this ? good :)09:34
wolfsprauljust minus the cmos image sensor09:34
Ornotermeswill, it's not really that it has an fpga, its that it seems like overkill if there is a cpu with a lot of I/O already09:34
wolfspraulthe key results are that 35 boards pass 100%09:35
wolfspraulall rc1 fixes were successful, no regressions09:35
wolfspraulnow we continue full power on the 100 loose ends everywhere09:36
wpwrak(xue as arduin-like) how would you position SIE ?09:36
wolfsprauldon't know09:36
wpwrak(no regression, only 100 loose ends) sounds great :)09:36
wolfspraulmost important now is the case09:37
wolfspraulroh is on it...09:37
wolfsprauljtag-serial board, in the making09:37
wolfspraulce/fcc - after case09:37
wpwrak(case) i saw that you have some scary mechanics. badly fitting connectors. ah well, a bigger hole solves that :)09:37
wolfspraulproper box, get accessories under control09:37
wolfspraulwhich connector?09:37
wolfspraulyou mean what I wrote here?09:38
wolfspraulah yes09:38
wpwraksome days ago09:38
wolfspraulwell let's see09:38
wolfspraulbigger holes for now, yes09:38
wolfspraulwpwrak: xue/BOOKSHELF has some loose ends too :-)09:39
wolfspraulor example it has a D: line pointing to a .htm url - http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/spartan-6.htm09:39
wolfspraulwhat do you think?09:39
wolfspraulone option is to launch a browser instead of xpdf09:39
wolfspraulthis page lists a lot of pdf docs09:39
wolfspraulso another option would be to include them directly in BOOKSHELF, maybe one by one as they are actually needed in the project09:40
wolfspraulwhat do you think?09:40
wolfspraulanother idea - can you make 'xpdf' configurable, say if there is an environment variable DSV_PDFVIEWER or so it will take that, otherwise xpdf?09:41
wolfspraulthere could even be some more logic, for example if someone has evince installed but not xpdf, dsv could detect that09:41
wpwraklaunching a browser is problematic. first of all, which do you launch, and second, what will it do then ? e.g., firefox with its "one session only" dogma is a very bad fit09:42
wpwrakkonqueror would work better. it spits out lots of junk on stderr (maybe stdout as well), though. plus, few people have/know it.09:43
wpwrak(pdfviewer) the variable sounds like a good idea09:44
wolfspraulhow standardized is this /etc/alternatives/x-www-browser stuff?09:44
wolfspraulis that in LSB or somewhere?09:44
wpwraki think (but not sure) it's a debianism09:44
wolfspraulwhat do you think about that particular .htm case?09:45
wolfspraulshould we include some pdfs from inside it into the BOOKSHELF?09:46
wolfspraulI like the offline-ness09:46
wolfspraulthat's whether dsv supports .htm or not09:46
wolfspraulanother small detail - if you run 'dsv setup' without a filename, can't it assume 'BOOKSHELF' by default09:47
wolfspraulwe want to write some more 'hardware style guide' anyway, and the BOOKSHELF file looks like a nice default09:47
wpwrak(pdfs inside) you can always manually put them. that's what i do.09:47
wolfspraulbut then 'dsv setup' shouldn't just do nothing when it's called, it could print an error 'missing filename', or use BOOKSHELF as the default09:48
wolfspraulI would prefer the BOOKSHELF default09:48
wolfspraulhave you looked at that url :-)09:48
wolfspraulthere's like 20-50 pdfs there09:48
wpwrakand indeed, you lose the offline-ness if you just fire up a browser. taht is, unless you start mirroring. but let's not get there ;-)09:48
wpwrakyou probably don't need all of them ;-)09:48
wolfspraulI will probably just add them one by one as needed. even if there is a duplication with the .html url, this is all about caching/offline and convenienc, so a bit of redundancy is not bad imho09:48
wpwrak(BOOKSHELF default) dunno. the fewer "magic names", the better :)09:49
wolfspraulah, speaking about that09:49
wolfspraulhow about adding a 'clean:' target in addition to the 'spotless:' magic name? :-)09:50
wolfspraula BOOKSHELF file in the root folder looks like a good entry in the style guideline we plan to build over time09:51
wpwrak(clean target) err, where ?09:51
wolfspraulthen at least 'dsv setup' could do more than nothing, for example it could say 'missing filename, try dsv setup BOOKSHELF'09:51
wolfspraulin boom09:51
wolfsprauljust came to mind since you condemned magic names09:51
wolfspraulbut with no 'clean' and only 'spotless' present, I'd say that qualifies too...09:52
wolfspraulif you want I can try some of those dsv improvements, can send you a patch or commit right away, whatever you prefer. just want to make sure it's in line with your thinking.09:52
wolfspraulthe current dsv will just download .htm files, then call xpdf with it -> fail09:52
wpwrak(clean/spotless) yeah, i usually try to have both. not 100% consistent, though.09:54
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv: added DSV_PDFVIEWER as a means to set a PDF viewer different from xpdf http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/fb1c75c09:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv: print usage on "dsv setup" without file name http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/ff2994809:55
wpwrakdone already :) not sure about the html09:55
wpwraksupporting it may create the wrong incentive :)09:55
wolfspraulall fine by me, pdf seems to be the gold standard anyway09:56
wolfspraulthe html pages I looked at so far (from the xue bookshelf), point to lists of pdf files09:57
wpwrak(pdf) yup. andres also found one .png  :)09:57
wpwrakextracting pdf URLs can sometimes be tricky. e.g., with silabs, it's all done in javascript, so if your browser doesn't let you access the download url, you have to dig into the page source :-(09:58
wolfspraulI'm wondering who uses those 'STEP-DOWN CONVERTER' names09:59
wpwrak(download urls) but i guess we can come up with some "best practice" for that09:59
wpwrakbogus, imho09:59
wolfspraulnot to mention that it appears twice for two separate files.09:59
wolfspraulwhat happens if the same nick appears twice?09:59
wolfspraulprobably it will just take the first, or last?09:59
wpwrakandres hasn't changed anything since i commented on the various problems with the names09:59
wolfsprauldo you work with hardlinks?10:00
wpwrakhmm, the last :)10:00
wolfspraulwell it's very easy10:00
wpwrakthey're all regular files10:00
wolfspraulI will only manufacture after we have REAL innovation on the freedom, process and KiCad side10:00
wolfsprauland since I doubt there will be other daredevil manufacturers jumping into this, we will speed up the cleanup or delay the production :-)10:01
wpwrakyou mean xue ?10:01
wpwrak(real innovation) with what we have already, most would probably consider us way beyond edge of the visible universe ;-)10:02
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed STEP-DOWN-CONVERTER alias http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/94d892a10:02
wolfspraulso, tested commit, works :-)10:02
wolfspraulyou mean the feedback you gave on the list?10:03
wolfspraulI will pull up the mail and make it my todo list for tomorrow :-)10:03
wpwrakabout the special characters, commas in aliases, etc.10:04
wpwrak(special = non-ascii)10:04
wpwraksome of them are nasty. they hang tools.10:04
wpwrakandres found a few interesting cases, though. e.g., "/" is indeed something you see from time to time10:06
wolfsprauldo you understand Adam's feedback?10:06
wolfspraulI tried to explain to him that dsv is separate from boom, but he always keeps mentioning them together. he probably has a point somewhere, but I don't get it yet.10:07
wpwrakhe found a real problem, namely that things in the schematics are under-specified. but then he confuses things by connecting them with dsv.10:08
wolfspraulok we sort it out10:18
wolfspraulI do agree with adam that we will work on bookshelf and the bom in parallel10:18
wolfspraulin the end we should have a link to a pdf for almost everything on the board, why not10:19
wpwrak(freetard) nice ;-)10:49
wpwrak(gifts) yeah, you made it ! congratulations ! :)10:51
wpwrakkewl. and the ben is there, too10:51
wpwraklekernel: btw, i think it would be good if you could post on the qi-hw list when you'll have your workshop. it currently seems a bit under-reported.10:55
lekernelwhat workshop? 27C3?10:56
lekernelit's totally under-reported10:56
lekernelit's not even on the congress website, nor fully confirmed yet... :/10:56
wpwrakit's a bit unfortunate that wolfgang didn't mention it in the last monthly news10:56
lekernelmaybe i'll wait a bit for the boards to arrive to Beartech, then I can also announce price etc.10:56
wpwrak(not fully confirmed) you mean the event or the date ?10:57
lekernelI still haven't got a confirmation of the CCC organizers that i'll have the room10:57
wpwrakhmm, maybe ping them10:57
wpwrakwould be bad if it got dropped on the floor somehow10:57
lekerneloh, they're aware of it10:57
wpwrakafter all, "chaos" is part of the concept ;-)10:58
lekernelthey wrote me last week10:58
wpwrakso if there's a problem with that room, what would be the plan B ?10:58
lekernelno workshop10:59
wpwrakurgh :-(10:59
wpwraksomething else instead ? talk or such ?10:59
lekernelI don't know11:00
wpwrak(which may actually be an improvement, in terms of reaching the masses :)11:00
lekernelin all cases we'll sell boards and put posters all over the place11:00
wpwrakhehe :)11:00
wpwrakif you think a talk may be better than a workshop and it seems there may be a problem with getting the workshop, perhaps you could also suggest a change11:01
wpwrakif they have talk slots open (people dropping out and such), that may be a welcome relief for them11:02
wpwrakof course, it's rather ugly that they don't have such things confirmed by now. i guess you should have told them you'd travel there from australia :)11:03
lekernelthey also have a soundsystem it seems, no?11:04
lekernelphonoelit or something like that11:04
lekernelin one of the rooms11:04
wpwrakno idea11:04
lekernelah, yes, phonoelit11:05
lekernelthough they moved the party to cassiopeia...11:06
lekernelfrom my experience cassiopeia is more a place for young and drunken people11:06
lekernelit's also rather far from the bcc11:07
wpwrakyoung and drunken should work well. geeks are the sort who grow up slowly if at all, and for many, surroundings with other geeks are the only opportunities to socialize - which invites excesses :-)11:09
kristianpauldamn i want a mm1 but i also want save more money for  a USRP v111:09
lekernelkristianpaul: send software patches & bugfixes and you get discounts :)11:10
wpwrakchicken and egg ;-)11:10
lekernelno, there's QEMU11:10
wpwrakgood point11:11
kristianpaulwell i have tow MM soc running on fpga, but i miss some ram :(11:11
kristianpaulwell i have tim11:11
kristianpaulha wikireaders are shipped from taipei14:01
wpwrakkristianpaul: that's where om are at home14:05
kristianpaulworfgang neighbours :)14:32
lekernel_what license would be better for a FPGA synthesis tool? BSD? GPL?15:53
viricDo you want to force the users to publish their modifications?15:58
viricWhen they publish some variant of it on binary form15:58
lekernel_yes, that's the question15:58
viricI'd go GPL unless someone asks for a BSD license15:58
wpwraklekernel_: depends a bit on your objectives. if you want to see the code used as much as possible, bsd. if you want to see it prosper in an open environment, gpl.15:58
viricwpwrak: his code may be used, but he may not see it being used :)15:59
wpwrakviric: yes, that's the catch :)15:59
lekernel_I want to enable potential contributing companies as much as possible15:59
lekernel_otoh I'd still like them to release their modifications15:59
wpwraklekernel_: in any case, don't count on them being "reasonable". if they see a way not to contribute back, they will almost certainly choose that path.15:59
viricfor a company, it is usually a much heavier work to fulfill the GPL than the BSD *minimums*, so...16:00
lekernel_maybe something like LGPL or GPL with linking exception could be nice16:01
wpwraklekernel_: you can also consider the option of dual licensing up to the point where you're no longer the only copyright holder. depending on how you see the process go, this may or may not be feasible.16:01
viriclekernel_: LGPL only requires that *your part* be always replaceable.16:02
viriclekernel_: and still requires modifications to be published as in GPL16:02
wpwrakin this scenario, you'd pick the most restrictive license, and wait for a "good enough reason" to come along. if none happens, nothing changes :)16:02
lekernel_wpwrak: yeah, that's a plan16:02
viricYes, I'd do that way. If someone asks another kind of license, you may later decide what to do.16:03
viricbut you have to care on where your contributions come from16:03
viricIf more than one person holds the copyright... you all have to agree on licensing changes16:03
lekernel_yeah, sure16:03
wpwrakthe good thing about the gpl is that it balances things quite well. it doesn't try to make everyone happy, but nobody has to be too unhappy either16:04
lekernel_aren't there companies which contribute to BSD-licensed projects?16:04
lekernel_it's hard to guess who would contribute to such a project...16:04
lekernel_hobbyists, probably not16:05
lekernel_mentor graphics, synopsys, etc. definitely not16:05
wpwrakthere ought to be. but you also get those who just take the code and run.16:05
lekernel_fpga startups? maybe...16:05
viricit's hard to compete with the free synthesizers from the big companies16:05
wpwrakwhy not hobbyists ? they may not add "core functionality", but things like ports and such16:05
wpwrakviric: everything is hard before you've done it the first time :)16:06
lekernel_viric: what free synthesizers?16:06
viricfree to use16:06
lekernel_Xst? Quartus? no :)16:06
lekernel_or, well, a synthesizer is hard to write16:06
lekernel_but Xst and Quartus are the easiest to compete with, relatively16:06
viricare they?16:07
lekernel_yeah, they're buggy bloated crap16:07
viricthat, sure.16:07
viricbut they are free, and they work for many cases.16:07
lekernel_wpwrak: why not hobbyists? look at what hobbyists contribute to opencores.org :)16:08
viriclekernel_: who do you work for?16:09
lekernel_people who can't design a CPU probably can't contribute much to a synthesizer...16:09
wpwrakwell, there's a lot of stuff at opencores. seems to work for some people. their requirements may be different from yours, so things that you'd consider horribly inefficient are acceptable for them.16:10
wpwrakand haven't you used some of the material/concepts from there ? wishbone and such ?16:11
wpwrakalso, the big entry of programmable hardware into the DIY market is still to happen :)16:11
lekernelevery time I used something from there, this resulted in a failed debug session, a complete rewrite and lots of time wasted16:11
wpwrak(wishbone) ah, i thought you once mentioned it16:12
viriclekernel: are you suffering the "I should do all myself" syndrome? :)16:12
lekernelyeah, I still have a few things which use wishbone, but it's not much, really16:12
wpwrakviric: in fact, it was recently renamed to "lekernel's syndrome" ;-)16:12
lekernelviric: no, I use good tools when they exist16:13
lekernelI didn't rewrite git for example, which is the only thing that never broke during milkymist development16:13
lekernelby contrast, svn was routelinely crashing and sometimes even corrupting my repository... I wonder how I have supported it for so long :)16:14
lekernelthe problem is simply that most software is crappy16:15
lekerneland Verilog cores, even worse16:15
viriclekernel: it's for cvs users to feel comfortable16:15
wpwrakfunny. never had such trouble with svn. svn is pretty much "nice and simple". alas, also grossly inefficient at some things.16:15
viricI've had troubles with both svn and git :)16:15
lekernelwpwrak: download the linux source, svn add *, svn ci16:15
lekernelthis will crash it for sure16:16
lekernelgit handles that perfectly16:16
viricsvn is quite outdated software based on outdated ideas16:16
viricno fair comparision16:16
lekernelwpwrak: can you give a single example of something I should have re-used instead of replaced?16:33
wpwraklekernel: of course not :)16:42
kristianpaulwolfspraul: are you planning to sell M1 as sharism or just this shop in germany?20:57
kristianpaulwolfspraul: btw what's that about the fedora server?.. (is related to milkymist and FEL?)20:57
wolfspraulI sell m1 to anybody who pays me.21:09
wolfspraulfedora, no this was just a private comment. After many years I am trying my first non-Debian system now, setting up a small Fedora server.21:09
wolfspraulthis may become bigger if Fedora continues to support Milkymist as much as they seem to do.21:10
wolfspraulI think this is impressive.21:11
wolfspraulso we see21:11
kristianpaulit is21:13
wolfspraulI was a RedHat user back in the 6.x days21:14
wolfspraulthen a long journey through pretty much all other major distros, Debian the last few years21:14
wolfspraulmaybe it's time to consider Fedora a bit more again :-)21:15
kristianpaulfedora and mm1 yes, if just dont have it working  my mm development env on debian now, i'll swich to fedore for sure21:19
wolfspraulwell OK, if things go that way then maybe we see more Fedora use, don't know21:21
wolfspraulSebastien has given up trying to get his stuff into Debian, and I don't blame him for his focus.21:21
wolfspraul(he has great focus)21:21
wolfspraulmeanwhile the Fedora people come forward and jump into this enthousiastically, create a project page, track progress, pull pull pull21:22
wpwrakthe best approach with distros: write good stuff, then wait for them to find it and pick it up :)21:28
wpwrakthe whole idea of "developing into a distro" is bogus. you can do that maybe for one, but even there, you're probably not at the edge for long (that is, unless you're an active maintainer of several packages)21:30
wpwrakbut FEL is indeed quite impressive. lots of cool stuff there.21:32
wolfspraulwhat do you mean with 'developing into a distro'?21:37
kristianpaulFrom workshop in ccc you could better feedback on FEL, i think setup time will be clue on for that day21:37
wolfspraulsomeone has to be maintainer, it's not so much about pushing anything down anybody's throat, but offering help and sharing the workload21:37
wolfspraulsay what we did with fped in Debian :-)21:37
wolfspraulyou could have waited for 10 years and it would not have been 'picked up'21:38
kristianpaulother sofware "in the wild"? :)21:38
kristianpaulIt was in fedora already may i wrong?21:39
wolfspraulfped you mean?21:41
wpwrak(developing into a distro) basically distro-centric development. instead of just maintaining a "standard" build environment and letting someone whose day to day business is putting things into the distro take care of the integration21:41
wolfspraulyeah it was 'picked up' very very early21:41
kristianpaulfped: yes21:41
wolfspraulthe fedora guys are amazingly proactive21:41
kristianpaulthats the word, proactive21:42
wolfspraulah yes I agree, of course distro-specific dependencies are bad21:42
wpwrak(debian/fped) oh, that was nice and it definitely accelerated things (and probably made the integration cleaner). but in the long run, xiangfu will probably run out of time for maintaining that link, because debian is probably only a very peripheral interest for him. then the package will age and eventually break. then someone else who is closer to debian will pick it up.21:47
wpwrakit all works magically. i never put much effort into aligning stuff with distros. when it gets used, they'll keep it in stock :)21:48
kristianpaulmaintaing software is hard task for long run, sadly most of distro dont follow upstream work as openwrt i think it does21:50
kristianpaulthat i think saves times21:51
kristianpaulnot sure how really help or eventually may drop out some headaches (upstream fault?..)21:51
wpwrakdepends a bit. some popular packages are in good shape. the more exotic ones with deep dependencies are the ones that tend to fall behind.21:55
wpwrakso i guess it's something like uptodateness = O(popularity/build_complexity)21:56
wpwrake.g., kicad used to have troubles with this. basically all the distros only had ancient versions. but then, the build requisites are also quite hellish.21:57
kristianpaulwait may be git/svn/mercurial/bazaar will envolute/mutate some day in also a package management system21:59
kristianpaulthat will really be helpfull for cases like kicad21:59
kristianpauli think21:59
kristianpaulwhat a mess sofware is anyway :)21:59
wpwrakoh dear :-) not sure. there are a lot of dependencies those revision control systems don't know about. not that there wouldn't also be other used for having them understand such things a little, but oh the complexity ...22:00
kristianpaulyes i forgot that22:01
wpwrak(e.g. our schematics diffs would benefit from having proper inter-project dependencies. some day, it'll be necessary to add some hits to this system, so that it can at least loosely synchronize related projects.)22:02
wolfspraulwpwrak: I copied your naming components mail to this wiki page http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_Style_Guide22:50
wolfspraulI will start to collect bits and pieces there, slowly cleanup over time.22:50
wpwrakgreat, thanks22:52
wpwraklet's hope the mail wasn't too confusing :)22:52
wolfspraulno it's good22:54
wolfspraulwe can only improve the system case by case22:54
wolfspraulthen those cases set the precedent for the future, we see whether it still fits, or needs further specialization22:54
wpwrakyeah. component naming is nasty business. it's full of inconsistencies, implicit rules, and surprises.22:55
wolfspraulfrom all my experience in anything electrical and manufacturing, I'd say this is the way to go :-)22:55
wpwrakyeah. i don't know nearly enough for anything but the incremental approach :)22:55
adamwangwpwrak, agreed on full of inconsistencies, implicit rules, and surprises.22:58
wpwrakhehe :)22:59
adamwangi made wrong parts missed even swapped on Mlikymist One RC1/RC2 BoM.22:59
wpwraki'm a little afraid that the high degree of automation in boom can cause trouble with bad specifications (e.g., incomplete names, overly specific names, and so on)23:00
wpwrakperhaps it'll be necessary to also keep boom output in repositories. that way, one can track what changes.23:00
wolfspraullet's work from top to bottom, starting in the schematics23:01
adamwangfrom latest status of boom. we know that this whole system can cover and overcome stupid mistakes made.23:01
wpwrakor maybe have some form of acceptance list. copy parts from the output to the list. then automatically compare new output with the list. if something changed too much, complain.23:02
wpwrakyes, it can work around lots of things. but it can also easily get mislaid. that's per se not so bad, because you ought to catch such things during review.23:02
adamwangum..i hope hackers work during developing sche, to do more precisely as possible even boom has not been became maturely.23:03
wpwrak(well, as long as you don't believe boom will just magically solve all your problems ;-)23:03
wpwrakthe missing bit is then simply to make sure any changes also get reviewed. since boom can change "spontaneously" (e.g., when prices or distributor stock change), we need some mechanism to record what has already been "seen".23:04
adamwang'review' is also unnecessary in the end! it takes time & cost.23:04
wpwraknot super-urgent for now, but something to keep in mind23:04
wpwrakyeah, right ;-)))23:04
adamwangyeah....so far now still need reviews.23:05
wolfspraulU4 is named as K800123:05
wpwrak(no reviews) let's not waste a day reviewing if we can spend a month doing another run after having turned the previous one into a major bloodbath ;-)23:05
wolfspraulis that the same as KSZ8001L on Milkymist One?23:06
adamwangyou probably know that it always can be changeable during pcb layout (e.g. : change footprint etc.), but forgot to update schematic in parallel.23:07
wpwrakhehe ;-) http://www.micrel.com/images/pdf.png23:07
wpwrakyet another bug in BOOKSHELF23:07
wolfspraulno problem we have lots of good links already http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_BOM23:08
wpwrakone can tell andres wasn't too happy about making that BOOKSHELF file :)23:08
wolfsprauljust sloppy as usual, honestly23:08
wolfspraulwe'll sort it out23:08
adamwangwolfspraul, i haven't jump into checking all parts in Xue. It may probably messy there.23:08
wpwrak(k8001) another nice one: part number is KS8001 for leaded and KSZ8001 for lead-free23:09
wolfspraulyes but we want to specify lead-free23:09
wpwrakwhere do you guys find all those crazy ones ? ;-)23:10
adamwangI'd like any related part related similar to Milkymist One brd, we recommend Andres to use the same part.23:10
wolfsprauladamwang: oh it will be the biggest mess you have seen in a long time23:10
wolfspraulmaybe we can clean it up, maybe not23:10
wolfspraulif I feel uncomfortable wasting my money in a failed run, then the run will not happen23:10
wolfspraul(with my money, but from my experience I'd say there are few people that can match me in craziness, so I doubt someone else will show up)23:11
wolfspraulhaving said that, let's start the cleanup :-)23:11
wolfspraulwpwrak: we find them because we have to find them to make a controlled run with actually successful boards23:11
wolfspraulbig surprise :-)23:11
wolfspraulonly in my testing the last 2 weeks I realized what a difficult board m1 is23:11
wolfspraulfantastic work by Sebastien and Adam23:12
adamwangthat's what I see hackers on naming part in schematic..too short naming...more dangerous, too long on naming...waiting time on thinking from hackers23:12
adamwanghow this big challenge on growing up boom system...is a long way to go and promote to list.23:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: (crazy parts) naw, it's pretty uncommon to have lead-free and such so early in the name. they usually put such things at the end. but we've now seen two in just a day.23:14
wpwrak(fantastic work) i agree. it's pretty impressive to get such a complex board right with so few runs23:15
wolfspraulyes but if we have to make a choice, let's specify lead-free and move on23:15
wolfspraullots of work, spending the limited resources in the right places is very important23:15
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes but we have more complex boards to come, no? and ic tape-outs, which are entirely driven by testability, not features. that will be fun.23:16
wpwrakadamwang: (boom) the hard part are the interruptions it causes. you want to add something "simple" and then you realize that you should really add the whole class of parts. now, will you do it properly or not ? :) so the more short-tempered developers will need some cleaning after23:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: (lead-free) sure. the leaded one is probably a collector's item by now anyway :)23:17
adamwangha:) of course agreed23:17
wpwrakwolfspraul: (driven by testability) what are you referring to ?23:18
wolfspraulthe little I learnt about tape-outs so far is that the key driver in that process is whether you can test the results23:18
wolfspraulnot the features23:18
wolfspraulthat's because failure becomes exponentially more expensive as the process technology goes up23:19
wpwrakah, i see. so that's the asics in ten years :)23:19
wolfspraulso the higher the process technology is, the more expensive failure gets, and in consequence (let's say for business that don't want to go bankrupt), the amount of time that goes into review, testing, preparing for testing, goes up exponentially as well23:20
wolfspraulit's quite simple actually, but some people seem to prefer bumping their head into the wall over and over and over again :-)23:20
wpwrakprobably O(n^3) even23:21
wolfsprauladamwang: I want to show you something, not sure you have seen it before23:22
wpwrakone for the yield, one for increased cost of the process (assuming that per se is linear), and one for the higher probability of failure of a complex part23:22
wolfspraulwhen you push a commit into the repository, a 1-line commitlog will show up here23:22
wolfspraulfor example...23:22
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: better U4 link http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/12b020f23:23
adamwangwhole class of parts yes we need to classify it.23:23
wolfspraulI just pushed a small fix in BOOKSHELF23:23
adamwangha ...ok23:23
wolfspraulthese links here help to communicate that people are working on23:23
wolfspraulso once you have committed something locally, it's a good idea to push early23:24
wolfsprauloh, I haven't added you to the xue members yet23:24
adamwangpls add, thanks.23:24
wpwrakwow, that's a heck of a URL. let's see if dsv survives it23:25
wpwrakyup, works :)23:25
wolfsprauladamwang: you need to git clone xue again, this time with git@projects.qi-hardware.com:xue.git23:26
wolfsprauljust delete the whole folder, then type "git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:xue.git"23:26
wolfspraulshould we rename this to KSZ8001?23:26
wolfspraulK8001 seems bad, you cannot google it at all and even searching k8001 on the micrel.com site finds nothing23:27
wolfspraulno wonder the link went to a meaningless png :-)23:27
wolfsprauldsv names are case sensitive, should we just accept that and say that schematics references should be written capitalized?23:28
wolfspraulor should we add both capitalized and lower case nicks?23:28
wpwrakK8001 doens't exist. KS8001 or, better, KZS8001. the data sheet starts with "The KSZ8001 [...]" :)23:28
wpwraknaw, i'd just pick one style.23:29
wolfspraulagreed, I change the alias to KSZ8001 in BOOKSHELF23:29
wolfspraulI think case-sensitive and saying that the refs should be capitalized is OK23:29
adamwangi would like the system can recognize/realize either capitalized or lower case.23:29
wpwrake.g., in bwn-wpan, all the names i expect to type are lower-case. some things have an upper-case "official name" and a lower-case alias23:29
wpwrake.g., "AN032" with alias "regulations"23:30
wolfspraulhow about schematics references?23:30
adamwangbut design during developing sch stage, it probably good to keep the same work sync to the 'word' of datasheet.23:31
wolfsprauladamwang: I agree with Werner that it is better to have only one system, as long as we clearly communicate it.23:31
wpwrakdunno. they capital letter there doesn't add much of a burden and may help to keep things apart23:31
wpwrakthe annoying ones are long all-caps names or names with many letters23:31
wolfspraulsure we will lower case those23:32
wolfspraulhow about schematics references?23:32
wolfspraulthe reason I am leaning towards capitalization is that they always seem to be capitalized23:32
wolfspraulfor example in the .lst bom file eeschema produces23:32
wolfspraulit's always C13, U123:33
wolfspraulnot c13, u123:33
wolfspraulI think23:33
wpwraki think capitalizing them is fine23:33
wolfsprauladamwang: you just have been out-voted 2:123:33
wpwraki'd tend to lower-case most things i expect to input (for convenience), but capitalized component references don't look overly inconvenient23:34
adamwang:)...in schematic sheet  or BOOKSHELF...i agreed.23:34
wolfsprauloh great23:34
wolfsprauleven better23:34
wpwrakhehe :)23:34
adamwangi was saying that hopefully the system can realized them..well...23:35
wpwrakalso, i think we really ought to view the dsv names as quite local. dsv is most useful if you can do things like "dsv fpga" or "dsv antenna"23:35
wpwrakit's a tool that's should give the engineer quick access to information. every second counts ;-)23:36
wolfsprauladamwang: let me explain some background23:36
adamwangsimply work on s/w work....then let hackers more works on 'right' keying process. :)23:36
wpwrakof course, this also means that there be no more excuses for not looking up things in the data sheet ;-))23:37
wolfspraulwhat you are asking for is 'case insensitive' matching, either by listing both U1 and u1 manually, or by having the matching done 'case-insensitive'23:37
wolfspraulwhen you say anything 'case insensitive', you may not create many new friends in the free software world23:37
wolfspraulthey have a long history of saying that 'case insensitive' is bad :-)23:37
wpwrakcase-insensitive as a rule isn't too bad an idea. but it's not the unix way, which makes me a bit reluctant.23:37
adamwangright...no matter U1 , u1...KSZ8001 , ksz8001....hehe23:38
wolfspraulwpwrak: I just simplify for Adam and try to explain the culture as clearly as possible.23:38
wolfspraulotherwise nobody ever says it, that's even worse23:38
wpwrakyup. we converge :)23:38
wolfsprauladamwang: Windows (of course :-)) is case insensitive23:38
wolfspraulbut real men don't use such systems23:38
wolfspraulI'll lower case a few nicks23:42
wolfspraulI think '-' is better than space23:43
wolfspraulor _? what should we use?23:43
adamwangagreed, i like. but you want to do now?23:44
wolfspraulsure, done is done23:44
wolfspraulwe can always learn, reverse, change23:44
wpwrakspace is bad23:44
wpwrakanything that's a shell meta-character is bad23:45
wpwrakwell, some are embeddable. they're acceptable. e.g., # and { but not ( or &23:45
wolfsprauldo you prefer - or _ instead of space?23:46
wolfspraulsay for usb-phy23:46
wolfspraulor spi-flash23:46
wpwrakdifficult. i'd lean slightly towards "-"23:47
wpwrakin ben-wpan/BOOKSHELF, you can see that i'm quite torn between the two :)23:47
wpwrakah, and the issue of reporting an error if no BOOKSHELF file is given is best avoided by writing a Makefile :)23:48
wolfspraulI just notice xue uses a different flash chip from m123:49
wolfspraulwondering why and what the differences are23:49
wpwrakurls ? :)23:50
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: cleaned dsv nicks http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/1d56cbb23:50
wolfspraulm1: http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/319942_J3-65nm_256-Mbit_MLC%20DS.pdf23:50
wolfspraulxue: http://www.numonyx.com/Documents/Datasheets/M25P32.pdf23:51
wolfspraulmy #1 worry for Xue is that we basically have a 'random assortment' of chips, but no manpower to get the software to work23:51
wpwraka broad mix is also bad for the inventory23:51
wpwrakthe one in xue is smaller (32 Mbit vs. 256 Mbit)23:52
wolfspraulso I will be going after every smallest difference to m1, try to understand it, and if I have the feeling nobody will support the software for that difference, we either switch to using the same part as on m1, or I will not produce the board23:52
wolfspraulwant to be very frank from the beginning. I am not interested in producing a board and 2 years later still struggle to boot it.23:52
adamwangwill get pain on my site23:52
wolfspraulbut I'm all positive about this, for differences that have a reason and we have software under control it's OK23:53
wolfsprauladamwang: you mean the xue flash chip?23:53
wolfspraulmost likely I would think that the way it's addressed and programmed from the fpga is also different23:53
adamwangumm...we need to ask Andres and listen to him first23:54
wpwrakxue is also SPI while the other uses a cpu bus23:54
wpwrakquite different the two23:54
wolfspraulnot surprised to hear that :-)23:54
wolfspraullike I said - random assortment of chips, worst case23:55
wpwrakdoes xue use the jtag adapter of m1 ?23:55
wolfspraulwe need to clear that up23:55
wolfspraulno, it had to be different23:55
wpwrakah, pity23:56
adamwangif the fpga on Xue  can be reconfigured as m1, and won't have too many changes, we should ask to change.23:56
wolfspraulno pity, just a bit more work :-)23:56
wolfspraulI think xue has a ft2232c, whereas m1 uses a ft2232h23:57
wolfspraulI vaguely remember 'h' = high-speed, but need to check23:58
wpwrakhmm, xue has two nands. one is spi the other has a NAND bus23:58
wpwrakthe one in MM1 is a NOR23:58
wpwrakU5 also needs a better "value". "NAND" leaves quite a lot open to interpretation :)23:59
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