#qi-hardware IRC log for Thursday, 2010-12-09

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: added parsing of INCH/METRIC in header http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/a86585401:13
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: detect and report errors when writing to standard output http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b75611a01:13
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/6f040f601:13
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp.c: implemented drill file filtering, some code restructuring http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/600025701:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: drl2gp: added README and a copy of the GPLv2 http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/c41126201:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:cae-tools http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/f6cf2e101:50
wpwrak_wolfspraul: hmm, in yesterday's discussion about MM1 you said you plan to slice any dollar you can off the price of MM1. that's very charitable, but isn't this a bit at odds with the idea of finding a sustainable path for making the whole operation self-financing ? :)01:55
kyakxiangfu: hi! how was your build yesterday?01:56
wolfspraulwpwrak_: he :-) you become a capitalist? :-)01:56
wolfspraulI just expressed my general business belief that technology is always on a trajectory to zero. Moore's Law.01:57
wolfspraulso of course we need to make money, those two things go in parallel I think. bring price down, volumes up.01:58
wpwrak_(capitalist) heh :) i kinda like the concept of selling new things at as high a price the market will tolerate. i think that's something steve once said. it makes sense. price is probably not the limiting factor at that time anyway, so it's a good moment to recover some of the investment.02:00
wolfspraultrue02:01
wpwrak_the trajectory for MMn will (hopefully :) be a longish one. also depends a bit on how long this stays in FPGAs.02:01
wolfspraulthat's why M1 will sell for 499 USD plus shipping02:01
wolfspraulas soon as it's complete, i.e. with a good case02:01
wolfspraul499 USD plus shipping is a high price02:01
wolfspraulbut I want to keep it there for 6-12 months02:01
wolfspraulat that (high) price, unfortunately by the time it reaches someone in Europe, even with a EU distributor, it will be 700 EUR or more02:02
wolfspraulif we can get things going, after x months the price can (and must) go down, say from 499 to 39902:02
wolfspraulbut that requires a lot of work, more efficient production testing, cheaper case, just streamline the whole process02:03
wpwrak_alright02:03
xiangfukyak: the upstream 'gettext-0.18.1.1' have some error. :(02:03
wpwrak_efficiency and volume :)02:03
kyakxiangfu: huh?02:08
kyakxiangfu: i was wondering, why you removed freedroid from gmenu2x?02:08
xiangfukyak: hmm.. it not run correct in my side.02:10
kyakwhat do you mean?02:11
xiangfukyak: it's always stop at the loading ... screen.02:11
kyakah, it's because you don't have swap enabled02:11
kyakthere is a switch to run it without music02:12
kyak*sound02:12
kyakthen it runs02:12
xiangfuoh. everytime I 1. add "-q" 2. Ctrl + z, 3 fg. then it's works fine.02:12
xiangfusince we don't enable the swap by default. so how about remove it form gmenu2x?02:13
kyaki think it's ok02:13
kyaktoo much for Ben :)02:13
kyakxiangfu: you are right, gettext won't build02:19
xiangfukyak: I think we finish move data to openwrt-package.git.  add new packages to config.full_system , add more icons in gmenu2x.02:26
xiangfukyak: so I would like start create the new openwrt release.02:27
kyakxiangfu: i'm still wondering why lynx and fbterm got out of full_system...02:28
xiangfume too. we should add them.02:29
xiangfuI think we should enable package that compile fine in build host (fidelio.qi-hardware.com)02:29
xiangfukyak: I will just enable them. then send one email to Mirko. :)02:31
kyakxiangfu: he will be surprised, i think :)02:33
kyakxiangfu: is there a bug report already for gettext?02:34
wolfspraulmaybe we can try to find out why it broke for Mirko02:34
wolfspraulone was missing iconv.h, if I remember correctly02:35
wolfspraulif it breaks for Mirko, it might also break for others, so the more careful we are the better02:35
wolfspraulnothing more frustrating that a broken build in a 10+h build process02:35
kyakwolfspraul: i didn't get any feedback from mirko02:35
kyaki think he re-run build and it built fine02:36
kyakOH02:36
kyaknow i remember02:36
kyakhe built it against 0.9.3202:36
kyakand i suggested enabling locale there02:36
xiangfuyes.  need enable the LOCATE in uclibc.02:36
kyakbut he didn't answer either...02:36
xiangfukyak: so far, not bug report in openwrt.02:37
kyakhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2010-12-02.log.html02:38
kyakthe discussion is almost from the beginning02:38
kyakxiangfu: http://lists.uclibc.org/pipermail/uclibc/2010-November/044443.html02:40
kyaklooks like our bug02:40
kyaksame line, even02:41
virichow good is the locale support in openwrt?02:42
kyakit's zero support in trunk openwrt02:42
kyakrouters, remember?02:42
viric:)02:44
viricThe GNU locale system, unfortunately, allows locale choosing only at runtime02:44
wolfspraulkyak: what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?02:48
kyakxiangfu: having a look at that line in gettext, it's strange to me why we even get inside of #  if __GLIBC__ >= 202:48
kyakwolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses02:49
kyakit's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it02:50
kyakrouters, remember?02:51
wolfspraulkyak: sorry, Adobe Flash hung my machine... what do you mean with zero support in trunk openwrt?02:51
kyakwolfspraul: it means that uclibc has locale support disabled, busybox is built without widechar support, most apps are linked against "narrow" ncurses02:52
kyakit's "optimized" to the maximum, and i can't argue against it02:52
viricI use glibc in nanonixos.02:53
viricnot very optimized to the maximum :)02:53
kyakAdobe Flash attack -2 :)02:56
wolfspra1lyeah, crazy02:56
wolfspra1lshould we switch to uclibc 0.9.32 as well?02:56
kyakheh02:57
kyakwe tried once to switch to uclibc 0.9.32, it didn't work very well02:57
kyakbesides, we are following the backfire branch, not the openwrt trunk02:58
kyakand it uses 0.9.30.102:59
viricwhy would you want 0.9.32?02:59
kyakit has that "nptl" support, which breaks things for some applications and fixes for others :)03:00
wolfspraulok, following backfire sounds like a strong argument03:01
xiangfukyak: I just found there is new branch in openwrt upstream named: uclibc_nptl03:01
kyaki think mirko just created the remotes/origin/uclibc_nptl, trying to figure out this03:01
kyakyes :)03:01
kyakxiangfu: ah, so it came from upstream..03:02
xiangfukyak: oh. sorry. not upstream. it's in openwrt-xburst.git03:03
xiangfutoo many remote in local.  :)03:03
kyakok :)03:03
xiangfukyak: since the code is inside "if __GLIBC__ >= 2",  if we can just disable those code?03:07
kyakxiangfu: what if it IS build with glibc?03:08
kyakmaybe need to figure out why uclibc pretends to be a glibc :)03:08
kyakthere was no problem with gettext-0.1703:09
xiangfukyak: yes. right. that is the root cause.03:09
kyakmaybe need to figure out why this change was introduced..03:09
kyaki have a feeling that there is not such error when uclibc has locale disabled..03:10
kyaki doubt someone would commit such crap03:10
xiangfukyak: feeds/packages/libs/gettext$ more patches/120-uclibc-nolocale.patch  check this patch03:11
kyakwe have this __UCLIBC_HAS_LOCALE__03:13
kyakthe setlocale function must work03:14
kyakxiangfu:  i think i found it03:33
kyakhttp://www.mail-archive.com/bug-gnulib@gnu.org/msg20551.html03:33
kyakwe should change if __GLIBC__ >= 2 to03:33
kyakif __GLIBC__ >= 2 && !defined __UCLIBC__03:33
kyakit's explained why in the link above03:33
kyakseems like a clean solution to me..03:34
xiangfukyak: great.03:54
xiangfukyak: testing.03:56
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x: add sdcv icon http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ba2629d04:36
xiangfukyak: it compile fine. let's see how the build going. :)04:36
kyakxiangfu: note the ../libtool: line 46: -c: command not found strange line before it.. i don't know if this might cause problems as well04:37
xiangfukyak: there are a lot of them.04:37
kyakxiangfu: have to go now.. good luck to you :)04:37
xiangfukyak: see you.04:40
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: Revert "disable fbterm and lynx, since they do not compile... latter one should be easy to fix (missing iconv.h)" http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/6862ea404:40
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system add wtime http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/5a9fb2d04:40
wolfspraulOrnotermes: you mentioned one area Xue could be good for is 'time lapse'. What do you mean?04:55
Ornotermeswhen one take series of pictures over a long time and then play them back as a video04:56
Ornotermesgrowing plants is a common example04:56
wolfsprauloh you mean like a picture every 10 minutes, and then play them at 15 fps or so?04:56
Ornotermesyes04:58
wolfspraulok got it04:58
Ornotermesbut with an xue it could easy me weeks or months04:58
wolfspraulwait let me add this to the 'use cases' in the wiki...05:00
wolfspraulOrnotermes: added to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xu%C3%A9#Use_Cases05:03
wolfspraul(also the hot mirror thing you mentioned to me)05:04
wolfspraulbbiab05:04
wolfspraulOrnotermes: back :-) so yeah, thanks for those use cases, if you have more things in mind for Xue, please share with us...05:32
Ornotermeswolfspraul: it could probably be programmed to take HDR-pictures with a single button klick05:35
Ornotermeswolfspraul: if there is GPIO left it could be built to use external triggers, like laser triggers05:42
wolfspraulno worries about that, we have an entire 50-pin header wired up from the fpga05:43
Ornotermesnice :)05:44
qwebirc57237Hello. Who can tell me where i can get "Jz4725B Programming Manual". I really need it :(09:04
qwebirc57237I asked wolfgang, but he still not reply to me...09:05
qwebirc57237http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2009-September.txt <-09:05
wolfspraulqwebirc57237: too many mails, sorry I'm a little behind09:06
wolfspraulqwebirc57237: you there?09:12
qwebirc57237yep)09:13
wolfspraulqwebirc57237: email me again at wolfgang@sharism.cc09:13
qwebirc57237ok, one sec..09:14
qwebirc57237done09:17
kristianpaulis  scripts/feeds update -a and scripts/feeds install -a comparable to cp data/qi_lb60/conf/feeds.conf ./  && make package/symlinks ?11:58
kristianpauli said because i compiled and got missing some packages using just cp ... and make package/symlinks11:58
kristianpaulahh same error http://paste.debian.net/101989/12:07
kristianpaulAny ne had sucefully compiled last xburst owrt ?12:08
kristianpauls/ne/one12:08
kyakyou need data/files & config.full_system12:23
kyakfeeds.conf is just a list of feeds to use12:23
kyakneeded both for feeds update -a && feeds install -a and make package/symlinks that are basically the same12:24
kyakkristianpaul: btw, these instructions are on wiki12:24
qi-bot[commit] kyak: qstardict: disable mouse, fit Setting dialogue to 320x240 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5d704f513:37
kristianpaulkyak: http://paste.debian.net/101989/ did you saw this error before?14:20
Ornotermesany one know what the parts in ben cost?16:21
wpwrak_Ornotermes: this list has some prices: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sharism_inventory16:22
Ornotermesthanks16:23
Ornotermesthe price is for that many as there is in stock right?16:28
wpwrak_i would guess it's for the quantity that was last bought (into that stock), but i don't really know.16:29
Ornotermesthen it's not of too big use... i think16:29
Ornotermesi was thinking what a bare ben pcb would cost16:30
wpwrak_i'm not even sure these prices have anything to do with the actual component cost for the ben. i.e., i don't know if wolfgang buys parts and gives them to the manufacturers or if the manufacturers buy (all or some of) the parts themselves.16:30
Ornotermesno case or lcm16:30
Ornotermesok16:30
wpwrak_case and lcm may not add a lot to the price, compared to the extra cost of bundling a separate product16:31
wpwrak_but i guess you'd have to ask wolfgang if he has any spare boards he'd like to sell16:32
Ornotermesi was thinking what it would cost to make someting lake a linux powered arduino16:32
wpwrak_hmm, like SIE ? :)16:33
Ornotermesbut in the same shape and size as an arduino mega 256016:34
Ornotermesor even a regular arduino16:35
wpwrak_why the same shape/size ?16:36
Ornotermesi don't really know what to answer to that :P16:38
Ornotermesbut i think that would be the shat that would be easiest to market16:39
Ornotermess/shat/shape16:39
Ornotermesand there is a lot of different shields to add anyting from leds to network16:42
wpwrak_dunno. it's a considerably more powerful system ...16:43
wpwrak_oh, the shields may be difficult. different voltage domains and all that16:43
Ornotermesgood point16:43
Ornotermesbut i would like a small and cheap linux module to build in to different things16:44
wpwrak_sie shouldn't be too bad for that. if you want simpler, you can use a ben plus breakout board16:49
Ornotermessie looks a bit expencive16:50
Ornotermesi don't know how realistic it is but i was thinking less than 50 USD16:51
wpwrak_dunno how cheap one can make it. besides the fpga, most things on it are stuff you'd want/need anyway.16:51
wpwrak_usd 50 definitely without fpga :)16:51
Ornotermesi have ssen many linux mudules but they usually are to expencive for building in to a single project16:52
wpwrak_well, you have the ben as s bottom line. there's a lot you can do with that already ...16:54
Ornotermesthats why i wonder what just pcbs cost16:54
Ornotermesbot ofcource all that flash is a bit overkill16:55
wpwrak_just the ben board would look a little odd. keyboard contacts on the top without a keyboard. connectors at seemingly random places. no holes for feet/standoffs. etc.16:56
wpwrak_your most economical choice might be to just use a ben and make a nice breakout board that connects to your circuit.16:58
Ornotermesyes, but the price might give a good idea what it would cost to make another board with similar components16:58
wpwrak_at what quantity ? :)16:58
Ornotermesi don't know, but i guess one would have to calculate on 100016:59
wpwrak_that's very little. your "simplified" board would probably be more expensive than a ben.17:00
wpwrak_the ben is priced for something like 3000 units.17:00
Ornotermesoh, ok17:00
wpwrak_mass production pricing is tricky :)17:01
Ornotermesindeed17:01
wpwrak_i think wolfgang is sitting on something like 800+ bens. all tested, boxed, ready to ship. so i think any plan to put these to good use would be welcome :)17:02
wpwrak_each existing ben sold means money. each potential reduced ben sold means yet another big upfront investment first.17:03
Ornotermesyeah17:03
Ornotermesto bad one can't make use och all interesting buses17:05
Ornotermesuse of*17:05
wpwrak_yes, that's really a pity17:06
lekernelgood. Ron is taking the troll bait on LibreWRT17:47
lekernelhahaha17:47
wpwrak_lekernel: they're asking for "feedback". there's your opportunity ;-)17:49
lekernelha, no, tonight i'm busy playing with the video input on milkymist17:50
lekernelwhich works really great btw :)17:50
lekernellibrewrt discussions (or developments I'd even say hahaha) are fun but don't get anything done17:51
wpwrak_(video in) sounds nice. what can it do ?17:52
wpwrak_(librewrt) it does seem a bit redundant, doesn't it ? particularly since openwrt already has that famous PATENT flag17:53
wpwrak_but i guess for every level of political correctness, there's still another one where people would be quite shocked about your standards ...17:54
wpwrak_i'm almost tempted to reply to ron :)17:54
lekernelstuff like http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=visikord18:05
wpwrak_heh, i like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lrm0QDbRAc&NR=118:09
lekernelyeah, we're getting there :)18:14
wpwrak_of course, this one looks better :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyEyqSMlyRY&NR=118:15
wpwrak_(also works better by not trying to match the timing)18:15
lekernelha, I use that one in talks to keep people focused ;)18:15
wpwrak_focused on what ? ;-)18:16
kristianpaul(video in) wow looks awesome19:07
kristianpauli dint knewt VJ do that btw19:08
kristianpauli always tought about keyboard..19:08
kristianpaulcool19:08
kristianpaullekernel: what kind of video camera arrangement are you using?19:10
kristianpaulohh this is new qi-wolfgang19:26
wpwrak_the other, the submarine captain ;-)19:30
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