| kristianpaul | Morning | 07:36 |
|---|---|---|
| kristianpaul | and great news | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | I do open-source software for GNSS SDR so I am interested in copy-left | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | HW to go with it. I am happy to have a look at your samples. I can | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | process any IF and any sampling frequency. An interleaved (e.g. | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | IQIQIQIQ) 16-bit binary file would be good for me (but 8 bit is also | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | good.) Just send me a binary file smaller than 10 MB and I can tell | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | you if the quality of data is enough for acquisition. | 07:36 |
| kristianpaul | I'll ask this guy join irc later i he dint already :) | 07:36 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: sounds great. it's good to have an expert around :) | 09:04 |
| viric | kristianpaul: what do you do with lm32? :) | 09:04 |
| kristianpaul | viric: well i use the SoC called milkymist developt by lekernel | 09:10 |
| kristianpaul | it uses a lm32 cpu for basic and slow tasks | 09:10 |
| kristianpaul | is a small cpu really handy | 09:10 |
| viric | aah | 09:11 |
| viric | is that the leon cpu? | 09:11 |
| kristianpaul | no, why is called lm32 | 09:11 |
| viric | ah no, from lattice. | 09:12 |
| kristianpaul | or mico32 is from lattive | 09:12 |
| kristianpaul | latiice* | 09:12 |
| kristianpaul | right | 09:12 |
| viric | leon is lgpl/gpl :) | 09:12 |
| viric | for lm32... is it a free cpu? | 09:13 |
| viric | (milkymist have a spartan6 fpga where they have the lm32, right?) | 09:13 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 09:13 |
| viric | yes to what? :) | 09:14 |
| kristianpaul | last | 09:14 |
| kristianpaul | s/yes/right | 09:14 |
| viric | ah ok | 09:14 |
| kristianpaul | free cpu i think it just uses its own ip license | 09:14 |
| viric | then leon could fit better, with an lgpl/gpl license. | 09:14 |
| viric | (in this open hardware world) | 09:14 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: may comment more about it | 09:14 |
| kristianpaul | "lm32 works, if you make leon to work go ahead and send the patch" i guess somebody sill say that | 09:15 |
| kristianpaul | not sure how big a really usefull leon is | 09:15 |
| viric | :) | 09:16 |
| viric | I also don't know | 09:16 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: sebastien says leon is too bloated, maybe also inefficient | 09:16 |
| viric | there are different versions of leons... | 09:16 |
| viric | but well, I don't know | 09:17 |
| viric | I imagine he explored to assert that. | 09:17 |
| kristianpaul | he did i think | 09:17 |
| wpwrak_ | meanwhile, in other news, a little jobs for my mill: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/vialtray.jpg | 09:17 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: nice ! | 09:17 |
| viric | :) | 09:17 |
| kristianpaul | what's inside the tubes, electronicss spare parts? | 09:18 |
| kristianpaul | loooks lik SMD ones | 09:18 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: 0603 and 0402 chips, yes. resistors, capacitors, varistors. | 09:18 |
| viric | are you working on electronics alone, or you have some colleagues to share the tools with? | 09:19 |
| wpwrak_ | i usually work alone. occasionally, some friends also do a little project, but that's not every often. | 09:20 |
| kristianpaul | ha! he have a whole factory lab in his place :) | 09:20 |
| viric | It's hard to find people with similar enough interests :) | 09:20 |
| wpwrak_ | i still need the plastic injector ;-) | 09:20 |
| viric | btw | 09:21 |
| viric | does anybody know here about smartcard-like devices? | 09:21 |
| viric | I wanted to be able to have 'my digital keys in my pocket' | 09:21 |
| wpwrak_ | now, let's see if the next tray is ready ... (i need something like 4-5 in total. it's nice to have a mill to do that for you - once it works, it'll work any number of times :) | 09:22 |
| kristianpaul | (plastic injector) well you can mill the mold and melt the plastic | 09:22 |
| viric | http://www.gemalto.com/products/pc_link_readers/ these at the botomlook cheap, for SIM. But I don't know how to put my keys into a SIM. | 09:22 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: still need pressure and heat | 09:22 |
| kristianpaul | hmm yes | 09:22 |
| kristianpaul | you're close | 09:22 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: i was thinking of experimenting with plastified wax. i hope this needs a lot less pressure. my goal would be to be able to work with molds made of wood. metal just takes too long to mill. | 09:23 |
| viric | wpwrak_: where do you have the 'office'? If I ever go close to that place, I'd like to come and see :) | 09:25 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: in buenos aires, argentina. close to the "once" station. | 09:39 |
| viric | Once? | 09:49 |
| viric | Station eleven? :) | 09:49 |
| viric | wpwrak_: Ché, pensé que vos estaba en Alemania! | 09:50 |
| kristianpaul | Oh, dia de hablar en español? :) | 09:53 |
| viric | Many here know Spanish I imagine | 09:56 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: soy austriaco pero me mude a la argentina hace unos anos :) | 09:56 |
| viric | wpwrak_: estupendo! Para bien? | 09:56 |
| kristianpaul | sur america es bien :) | 09:56 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: (once) yup, for "once de septiembre". not the one with the planes, though :) | 09:56 |
| viric | Yo he estado sólo en Sao Paulo, sus vecinos. | 09:57 |
| kristianpaul | hmm are you using google translate? | 09:57 |
| viric | (de sudamérica) | 09:57 |
| viric | hehe | 09:58 |
| viric | Spanish is not my native language | 09:58 |
| viric | but I use to get understood | 09:58 |
| viric | No, claro que no uso google-translate. Suena raro como escribo? | 09:58 |
| kristianpaul | np | 09:58 |
| kristianpaul | a little | 09:58 |
| viric | :D | 09:58 |
| kristianpaul | as my english i guess :p | 09:58 |
| viric | Yo hablo inglés y castellano sólo a medias. | 09:59 |
| kristianpaul | y usas tildes !, esta mucho mejor que my español | 09:59 |
| kristianpaul | s/my/mi | 09:59 |
| wpwrak_ | ;-) my english is lots better than my spanish, particularly when writing :) | 09:59 |
| viric | ah, no tendré muy por mano las locuciones, pero procuro acertar en ortografía. :) | 10:00 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: spanglish :) | 10:00 |
| viric | Here the 11 of September is the national day | 10:00 |
| kristianpaul | viric: where are you located? | 10:01 |
| viric | In Girona... close to Barcelona | 10:01 |
| viric | (as you may have heard more about Barcelona than Girona) | 10:01 |
| kristianpaul | as usual | 10:02 |
| viric | I live not that far from tuxbrain, although I never met him still. | 10:02 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: i write english most of the time than spanish i speak | 10:03 |
| kristianpaul | good point: | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | One more consideration, you alone will be able to do only some work, | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | 10 people will probably do much more than what you could do. This | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | suggest that the best open-source implementation might not be an | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | implementation in the fastest language (VHDL) but instead the | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | implementation in a language (or with the HW) that is more likely to | 10:04 |
| kristianpaul | attract those 10 people. | 10:04 |
| viric | 'fastest language'? | 10:05 |
| viric | italian is the fastest :) | 10:05 |
| wpwrak_ | vhdl vs. verilog ? :) | 10:05 |
| viric | fastest to write, you mean? | 10:06 |
| wpwrak_ | not chinese then :) | 10:07 |
| viric | haha | 10:07 |
| viric | You refer to 'speed' in what process? | 10:07 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: not actually i even dint mention vhdl, i think he meant high level abstraction like python for GUN Radio | 10:08 |
| viric | Btw | 10:09 |
| viric | I've always thought that most of the people making electronic schematics public don't write "the source" for them | 10:09 |
| viric | So, why components here and not there, and why those values and not others. | 10:10 |
| wpwrak_ | ah. APL should be pretty quick. even the most complex things rarely need more than one line of code. and it has built-in operators for matrix inversion and such :) | 10:10 |
| kristianpaul | You can write behavior instead, is much more easy i think | 10:10 |
| viric | I think I never found something like an "open source circuit". For me, looking at 'how are what components placed where' is more like a 'binary' than source. | 10:10 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: yeah, comments tend to be rare. sometimes, you can find them in the commit log (if there's one) or the ECNs (if there are any) | 10:13 |
| viric | exactly. very rare. | 10:13 |
| viric | So for me all that looks to me like 'free programs without source' | 10:13 |
| viric | Like the old computer times, when magazines brought lists of "POKE"s that ended up in a little videogame. | 10:14 |
| viric | Do you use 'dict' in the nanonote? I've to make it work. I also want links... | 10:15 |
| wpwrak_ | naw, free assembler programs without comments ;-) | 10:15 |
| viric | hehe similar, yes | 10:15 |
| viric | Some people used to that can quickly say "an amplifier stage", "an adapter", "a filter", ... | 10:16 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: this shows something your 3d printer doesn't produce: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/vialtray-mill.jpg | 10:16 |
| viric | as in asm some people sees "a switch() statement", "a loop", "a memory copy", ... | 10:16 |
| viric | wpwrak_: you have to prepare some photo album for us to see :) | 10:16 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: a lot of stuff takes quite a bit of explaining if you want to explain it. and it's often fairly basic. e.g., the value of a pull-up. | 10:17 |
| viric | those pictures 'vale más que mil palabras' | 10:17 |
| viric | wpwrak_: not that much... this intensity here, this there, ... Ohm law, and that's it | 10:17 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: hey you have free compost for gardening " | 10:17 |
| kristianpaul | s/"/! | 10:18 |
| viric | wpwrak_: in order to adapt values to the components you may own, you have to reverse engineer the whole. | 10:18 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: well, lots of values come from the data sheets. so what you really want is those. | 10:18 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: well my 3d printer make a raft so i have some residual plastic and the end too | 10:19 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: for pull-ups and the like, you normally just use a ballpark number, e.g., 100 kOhm for an input with good (small) leakage current, 10 kOhm for not so good leakage. anything else would be unusual and probably worth explaining. | 10:20 |
| viric | well | 10:20 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: for LEDs, people tend to just use something around 100 Ohm and never bother with doing the math ;-) | 10:20 |
| viric | The source should simply say then "I copied the datasheet" | 10:20 |
| wpwrak_ | viric: that's the default assumption :) | 10:20 |
| viric | haha | 10:20 |
| viric | I always do the math | 10:21 |
| viric | there are electronic calculators these days :) | 10:21 |
| viric | I think there are not good means to "add source information" to circuit schematics | 10:22 |
| wpwrak_ | what's often much more interesting than a description of how the circuit works is a description of why it was changed in its history. that's where the surprises are :) | 10:22 |
| viric | History has also value, sure | 10:22 |
| wpwrak_ | you can put text comments in the schematics. but if you put too much, it gets confusing | 10:23 |
| viric | Text comments are usually of the kind "don't do this" | 10:23 |
| viric | or "do this" | 10:23 |
| wpwrak_ | you can also write small documents on specific topics, number them, and put the number in the schematics | 10:23 |
| viric | Sure | 10:23 |
| viric | I don't mean it's impossible to do | 10:23 |
| wpwrak_ | e.g., ben-wpan/ecn/ (not a lot there, though) | 10:24 |
| viric | It's also easier to publish binaries than source code, programming. Specially to those not used to do so. | 10:24 |
| wpwrak_ | for a lot of things, you have to read the data sheets anyway, so it makes sense not to explain stuff that's written there again | 10:24 |
| viric | we have hypertext since years :) | 10:25 |
| wpwrak_ | yeah, click for data sheet would be nice :) | 10:25 |
| wpwrak_ | well, we have dsv, that helps :) | 10:25 |
| viric | what is dsv? | 10:25 |
| viric | (if it's the schematic 'diff', I still have not used it :) | 10:25 |
| wpwrak_ | no, that would be schhist | 10:26 |
| viric | so dsv? | 10:26 |
| wpwrak_ | dsv is a very primitive system to download and display data sheets | 10:26 |
| wpwrak_ | e.g., in ben-wpan, you do make dsv and then it downloads all the data sheets i used | 10:26 |
| viric | ah, great thing. | 10:27 |
| viric | Comparing, it's far better than not having that | 10:27 |
| wpwrak_ | after that, you can dsv antenna or dsv txrx or dsv at86rf230 (the latter is equivalent to "txrx") and so on | 10:27 |
| wpwrak_ | this "solves" the issue that you can't legally redistribute most data sheets | 10:28 |
| viric | clear | 10:28 |
| wpwrak_ | some companies may still frown upon you distributing "deep links", but that's a lot less likely to draw hostile attention than anything else | 10:28 |
| viric | sure | 10:30 |
| viric | how are the wpan tests going | 10:30 |
| viric | ? | 10:30 |
| viric | do you take notes of the progress anywhere else than the repository? | 10:31 |
| wpwrak_ | this is how it's going: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/ants-s1.png | 10:32 |
| wpwrak_ | (notes) well, i have some local notes. and of course occasionally pictures | 10:33 |
| viric | and you publish them specially through irc? | 10:33 |
| wpwrak_ | ;-) | 10:33 |
| viric | :) | 10:33 |
| viric | the signal strength is in SNR? | 10:33 |
| wpwrak_ | if they are of more than a passing interest, i post them in a mail or reference them in the repository | 10:34 |
| viric | ok | 10:34 |
| wpwrak_ | uh, i'm not even sure what unit that signal strength would be. it's just something that looks more or less "right" | 10:34 |
| viric | where do you get that number from? | 10:35 |
| wpwrak_ | the objective is to find the best antenna, so as long as they all use the same algorithm, the actual numbers don't matter so much | 10:35 |
| viric | ok | 10:35 |
| viric | and the testing conditions are a reasonable distance? | 10:35 |
| wpwrak_ | well ... i emit a test signal, receive the wave, strip the initial samples (they're often distorted), do an fft, then drop all the values below a certain threshold, sum the ones within a certain interval, and hope for the best :-) | 10:36 |
| wpwrak_ | about 3 m between antennas | 10:37 |
| wpwrak_ | 378 cm | 10:38 |
| viric | where is the repository for your ben-wpan? | 10:40 |
| wpwrak_ | git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-wpan.git | 10:41 |
| viric | thank you! I was looking exactly for this | 10:42 |
| viric | oh permission denid | 10:42 |
| wpwrak_ | hmm, then check http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/help/ | 10:44 |
| wpwrak_ | there are two ways to access it. one may require keys. | 10:44 |
| viric | where to get keys? | 10:45 |
| viric | let me see | 10:45 |
| viric | ah | 10:45 |
| viric | that page solved | 10:45 |
| wpwrak_ | (keys) whem you go to http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/preferences/, you can upload your ssh key | 10:46 |
| viric | ah good | 10:47 |
| wpwrak_ | that may help in this case (not entirely sure. maybe you'd also have to have commit access for this type of clone to work.) | 10:47 |
| wpwrak_ | anyway, the files are the same :) | 10:47 |
| viric | sure | 10:47 |
| viric | you made your own usb-wpan too? not only that of the ben? :) | 10:48 |
| wpwrak_ | we need both :) | 10:49 |
| viric | sure | 10:49 |
| viric | but I thought you could have used one sold mainstream | 10:50 |
| viric | (if there are) | 10:50 |
| wpwrak_ | and it seems that all the commercial offerings suck on one way or another | 10:50 |
| wpwrak_ | (hard to find / not open enough / too large, etc.) | 10:50 |
| kristianpaul | whats is better: wait for signal telling the data is ready to be read or use a set signal then wait for the data | 12:40 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: huh ? | 13:10 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: he :) | 13:23 |
| kristianpaul | just trolling my self with some diagrams | 13:27 |
| wpwrak_ | ;-) | 13:27 |
| kristianpaul | woah [OT] http://www.elpais.com/global/ | 13:29 |
| Action: kristianpaul lunch time | 13:29 | |
| wpwrak_ | (wikileaks) oh, that should be fun ;-)) | 13:41 |
| kyak | ehm, guys | 15:11 |
| kyak | say, there is a samsung tv, and it has serial port in some vga pins (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/samygo/index.php?title=Ex-Link_Cable_for_C-Series) | 15:11 |
| kyak | the voltage level is 3.3 V | 15:11 |
| kyak | they suggest using a special cable for that (with voltage convertter) | 15:12 |
| kyak | but since Ben already has 3.3 V serial pins, can i connect those directly? | 15:12 |
| kristianpaul | seems yes | 15:13 |
| kyak | i mean, i want to connect Ben's GND, TXD, and RXD pins on it's back directly to according TV VGA pins | 15:13 |
| kyak | thus avoiding necessity for that cable | 15:13 |
| kyak | good! | 15:13 |
| kyak | if i brick that tv, Ben might help :) | 15:14 |
| kristianpaul | r u sure is 3.3v? | 15:14 |
| kyak | on tv? | 15:15 |
| kristianpaul | i mean didi you measure | 15:15 |
| kristianpaul | yes | 15:15 |
| kyak | it says "As the TV has TTL level serial output (3.3V)" | 15:15 |
| kristianpaul | s/didi/did | 15:15 |
| kristianpaul | yeah i saw | 15:15 |
| kyak | but i didn't measure (i don't even have the tv yet) | 15:15 |
| kristianpaul | well seems the ben can save you all thos adapters | 15:15 |
| kyak | this is cool | 15:15 |
| kyak | im trying to imagine my further actions | 15:15 |
| kyak | should i connect to ttyS0 with minicom? | 15:16 |
| kristianpaul | he i wonder if at time that wiki was written was aware of ftdi chips | 15:16 |
| kyak | and i will see the console outptu from TV? | 15:16 |
| kristianpaul | well i dont known if your tc have such us console | 15:16 |
| kristianpaul | minicom?.. | 15:16 |
| kyak | i guess max232 is just more common than ftdi..? | 15:16 |
| kristianpaul | sure | 15:16 |
| kyak | yes, after having all these hardware connections, how do i actually use the console? | 15:17 |
| kristianpaul | ah yes minicoom i nbevr used but i know what it is | 15:17 |
| kyak | ok\ | 15:17 |
| kyak | i don't really understand at the moment | 15:17 |
| kyak | this procedure.. | 15:17 |
| kristianpaul | ah service menu | 15:17 |
| kyak | it is like: my shell <-> minicom <-> ttyS0 <-> TV serial port | 15:18 |
| kristianpaul | ok seems it should work with ben indeed | 15:18 |
| kristianpaul | sorry i was readint the wiki first | 15:19 |
| kristianpaul | sound like a plan | 15:19 |
| kyak | yep, thank you :) | 15:19 |
| kyak | i'm considering this C-series tv from Samsung | 15:19 |
| kyak | and there are guys overthere that seem to hack it successfully | 15:20 |
| kyak | it has linux on board | 15:20 |
| kristianpaul | what you want a hack on it? | 15:20 |
| Action: kristianpaul dont have TV | 15:20 | |
| kyak | basically i just want to play files from smb/nfs share | 15:20 |
| kyak | that's all | 15:20 |
| kristianpaul | oh it have ethernet as well? | 15:20 |
| kyak | sure | 15:20 |
| kyak | ethernet and usb | 15:20 |
| kristianpaul | awesome | 15:20 |
| kyak | and i can plug wifi in there | 15:20 |
| kristianpaul | TV are computers now | 15:20 |
| kyak | so i plan to connect it to my router | 15:21 |
| kyak | and profit!! | 15:21 |
| kristianpaul | good for you then :) | 15:22 |
| kristianpaul | if you plan use minicom in openwrt make sure inittan dont lauch tty on it | 15:22 |
| kyak | oh yes, good hint | 15:23 |
| kristianpaul | and BTW are you aware of uses of the tty on the nanonote requires soldering some wires? | 15:23 |
| kyak | of course :) i was reading here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Serial_console | 15:23 |
| kyak | http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Papermod_3.jpg | 15:24 |
| kyak | like this approach | 15:24 |
| kristianpaul | good, well the other option is uSD bitbanging | 15:24 |
| kyak | what is it? | 15:24 |
| kyak | using some uSD outputs? | 15:25 |
| kristianpaul | yeap | 15:25 |
| kristianpaul | uSD is a can work also as PORTD GPIO | 15:25 |
| kristianpaul | wpwrak_: had make a great work around it with wpan | 15:25 |
| kyak | is there info somewhere in wiki? | 15:26 |
| kristianpaul | and now seems is develpoing a bitbang lib | 15:26 |
| kristianpaul | i wonder if wpwrak_ uses the wiki ;) | 15:26 |
| kristianpaul | brb evening shower :) | 15:29 |
| wpwrak_ | kristianpaul: (wiki) not much. still waiting/hoping for a way to integrate it into the workflow ... | 16:01 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove msmtp-queue, Applied in r24176 upstream http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ce7e2ed | 21:43 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package, aewan, Ascii Art Editor http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e357b2c | 22:55 |
| wpwrak_ | nice :) now all that's missing is blender ;-) | 22:59 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: vialtray/tray.pl: y size is 93 mm, not 90; adjust y offset accordingly http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2c4e3eb | 23:05 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: fix glitch in fft.c and add scripts to display data sets without temp file http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/eafb2a2 | 23:16 |
| qi-bot | [commit] Werner Almesberger: ants: added 105% and 115% antennas http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fa08ac3 | 23:52 |
| --- Mon Nov 29 2010 | 00:00 | |
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