#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2010-11-28

kristianpaulMorning07:36
kristianpauland great news07:36
kristianpaulI do open-source software for GNSS SDR so I am interested in copy-left07:36
kristianpaulHW to go with it. I am happy to have a look at your samples. I can07:36
kristianpaulprocess any IF and any sampling frequency. An interleaved (e.g.07:36
kristianpaulIQIQIQIQ) 16-bit binary file would be good for me (but 8 bit is also07:36
kristianpaulgood.) Just send me a binary file smaller than 10 MB and I can tell07:36
kristianpaulyou if the quality of data is enough for acquisition.07:36
kristianpaulI'll ask this guy join irc later i he dint already :)07:36
wpwrak_kristianpaul: sounds great. it's good to have an expert around :)09:04
virickristianpaul: what do you do with lm32? :)09:04
kristianpaulviric: well i use the SoC called milkymist developt by lekernel09:10
kristianpaulit uses  a lm32 cpu for basic and slow tasks09:10
kristianpaulis a small cpu really handy09:10
viricaah09:11
viricis that the leon cpu?09:11
kristianpaulno, why is called lm3209:11
viricah no, from lattice.09:12
kristianpaulor mico32 is from lattive09:12
kristianpaullatiice*09:12
kristianpaulright09:12
viricleon is lgpl/gpl :)09:12
viricfor lm32... is it a free cpu?09:13
viric(milkymist have a spartan6 fpga where they have the lm32, right?)09:13
kristianpaulyes09:13
viricyes to what? :)09:14
kristianpaullast09:14
kristianpauls/yes/right09:14
viricah ok09:14
kristianpaulfree cpu i think it just uses its own ip license09:14
viricthen leon could fit better, with an lgpl/gpl license.09:14
viric(in this open hardware world)09:14
kristianpaulwpwrak_: may comment more about it09:14
kristianpaul"lm32 works, if you make leon to work go ahead and send the patch" i guess somebody sill say that09:15
kristianpaulnot sure how big a really usefull leon is09:15
viric:)09:16
viricI also don't know09:16
wpwrak_viric: sebastien says leon is too bloated, maybe also inefficient09:16
viricthere are different versions of leons...09:16
viricbut well, I don't know09:17
viricI imagine he explored to assert that.09:17
kristianpaulhe did i think09:17
wpwrak_meanwhile, in other news, a little jobs for my mill: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/vialtray.jpg09:17
kristianpaulwpwrak_: nice !09:17
viric:)09:17
kristianpaulwhat's inside the tubes, electronicss spare parts?09:18
kristianpaulloooks lik SMD ones09:18
wpwrak_kristianpaul: 0603 and 0402 chips, yes. resistors, capacitors, varistors.09:18
viricare you working on electronics alone, or you have some colleagues to share the tools with?09:19
wpwrak_i usually work alone. occasionally, some friends also do a little project, but that's not every often.09:20
kristianpaulha! he have a whole factory lab in his place :)09:20
viricIt's hard to find people with similar enough interests :)09:20
wpwrak_i still need the plastic injector ;-)09:20
viricbtw09:21
viricdoes anybody know here about smartcard-like devices?09:21
viricI wanted to be able to have 'my digital keys in my pocket'09:21
wpwrak_now, let's see if the next tray is ready ... (i need something like 4-5 in total. it's nice to have a mill to do that for you - once it works, it'll work any number of times :)09:22
kristianpaul(plastic injector) well you can mill the mold and melt the plastic09:22
virichttp://www.gemalto.com/products/pc_link_readers/ these at the botomlook cheap, for SIM. But I don't know how to put my keys into a SIM.09:22
wpwrak_kristianpaul: still need pressure and heat09:22
kristianpaulhmm yes09:22
kristianpaulyou're close09:22
wpwrak_kristianpaul: i was thinking of experimenting with plastified wax. i hope this needs a lot less pressure. my goal would be to be able to work with molds made of wood. metal just takes too long to mill.09:23
viricwpwrak_: where do you have the 'office'? If I ever go close to that place, I'd like to come and see :)09:25
wpwrak_viric: in buenos aires, argentina. close to the "once" station.09:39
viricOnce?09:49
viricStation eleven? :)09:49
viricwpwrak_: Ché, pensé que vos estaba en Alemania!09:50
kristianpaulOh, dia de hablar en español? :)09:53
viricMany here know Spanish I imagine09:56
wpwrak_viric: soy austriaco pero me mude a la argentina hace unos anos :)09:56
viricwpwrak_: estupendo! Para bien?09:56
kristianpaulsur america es bien :)09:56
wpwrak_viric: (once) yup, for "once de septiembre". not the one with the planes, though :)09:56
viricYo he estado sólo en Sao Paulo, sus vecinos.09:57
kristianpaulhmm are you using google translate?09:57
viric(de sudamérica)09:57
virichehe09:58
viricSpanish is not my native language09:58
viricbut I use to get understood09:58
viricNo, claro que no uso google-translate. Suena raro como escribo?09:58
kristianpaulnp09:58
kristianpaula little09:58
viric:D09:58
kristianpaulas my english i guess :p09:58
viricYo hablo inglés y castellano sólo a medias.09:59
kristianpauly usas tildes !, esta mucho mejor que my español09:59
kristianpauls/my/mi09:59
wpwrak_;-) my english is lots better than my spanish, particularly when writing :)09:59
viricah, no tendré muy por mano las locuciones, pero procuro acertar en ortografía. :)10:00
wpwrak_kristianpaul: spanglish :)10:00
viricHere the 11 of September is the national day10:00
kristianpaulviric: where are you located?10:01
viricIn Girona... close to Barcelona10:01
viric(as you may have heard more about Barcelona than Girona)10:01
kristianpaulas usual10:02
viricI live not that far from tuxbrain, although I never met him still.10:02
kristianpaulwpwrak_: i write english most of the time than spanish i speak10:03
kristianpaulgood point:10:04
kristianpaulOne more consideration, you alone will be able to do only some work,10:04
kristianpaul10 people will probably do much more than what you could do. This10:04
kristianpaulsuggest that the best open-source implementation might not be an10:04
kristianpaulimplementation in the fastest language (VHDL) but instead the10:04
kristianpaulimplementation in a language (or with the HW) that is more likely to10:04
kristianpaulattract those 10 people.10:04
viric'fastest language'?10:05
viricitalian is the fastest :)10:05
wpwrak_vhdl vs. verilog ? :)10:05
viricfastest to write, you mean?10:06
wpwrak_not chinese then :)10:07
virichaha10:07
viricYou refer to 'speed' in what process?10:07
kristianpaulwpwrak_: not actually i even dint mention vhdl, i think he meant high level abstraction like python for GUN Radio10:08
viricBtw10:09
viricI've always thought that most of the people making electronic schematics public don't write "the source" for them10:09
viricSo, why components here and not there, and why those values and not others.10:10
wpwrak_ah. APL should be pretty quick. even the most complex things rarely need more than one line of code. and it has built-in operators for matrix inversion and such :)10:10
kristianpaulYou can write behavior instead, is much more easy i think10:10
viricI think I never found something like an "open source circuit". For me, looking at 'how are what components placed where' is more like a 'binary' than source.10:10
wpwrak_viric: yeah, comments tend to be rare. sometimes, you can find them in the commit log (if there's one) or the ECNs (if there are any)10:13
viricexactly. very rare.10:13
viricSo for me all that looks to me like 'free programs without source'10:13
viricLike the old computer times, when magazines brought lists of "POKE"s that ended up in a little videogame.10:14
viricDo you use 'dict' in the nanonote? I've to make it work. I also want links...10:15
wpwrak_naw, free assembler programs without comments ;-)10:15
virichehe similar, yes10:15
viricSome people used to that can quickly say "an amplifier stage", "an adapter", "a filter", ...10:16
wpwrak_kristianpaul: this shows something your 3d printer doesn't produce: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/vialtray-mill.jpg10:16
viricas in asm some people sees "a switch() statement", "a loop", "a memory copy", ...10:16
viricwpwrak_: you have to prepare some photo album for us to see :)10:16
wpwrak_viric: a lot of stuff takes quite a bit of explaining if you want to explain it. and it's often fairly basic. e.g., the value of a pull-up.10:17
viricthose pictures 'vale más que mil palabras'10:17
viricwpwrak_: not that much... this intensity here, this there, ... Ohm law, and that's it10:17
kristianpaulwpwrak_: hey you have free compost for gardening "10:17
kristianpauls/"/!10:18
viricwpwrak_: in order to adapt values to the components you may own, you have to reverse engineer the whole.10:18
wpwrak_viric: well, lots of values come from the data sheets. so what you really want is those.10:18
kristianpaulwpwrak_: well my 3d printer make a raft so i have some residual plastic and the end too10:19
wpwrak_viric: for pull-ups and the like, you normally just use a ballpark number, e.g., 100 kOhm for an input with good (small) leakage current, 10 kOhm for not so good leakage. anything else would be unusual and probably worth explaining.10:20
viricwell10:20
wpwrak_viric: for LEDs, people tend to just use something around 100 Ohm and never bother with doing the math ;-)10:20
viricThe source should simply say then "I copied the datasheet"10:20
wpwrak_viric: that's the default assumption :)10:20
virichaha10:20
viricI always do the math10:21
viricthere are electronic calculators these days :)10:21
viricI think there are not good means to "add source information" to circuit schematics10:22
wpwrak_what's often much more interesting than a description of how the circuit works is a description of why it was changed in its history. that's where the surprises are :)10:22
viricHistory has also value, sure10:22
wpwrak_you can put text comments in the schematics. but if you put too much, it gets confusing10:23
viricText comments are usually of the kind "don't do this"10:23
viricor "do this"10:23
wpwrak_you can also write small documents on specific topics, number them, and put the number in the schematics10:23
viricSure10:23
viricI don't mean it's impossible to do10:23
wpwrak_e.g., ben-wpan/ecn/ (not a lot there, though)10:24
viricIt's also easier to publish binaries than source code, programming. Specially to those not used to do so.10:24
wpwrak_for a lot of things, you have to read the data sheets anyway, so it makes sense not to explain stuff that's written there again10:24
viricwe have hypertext since years :)10:25
wpwrak_yeah, click for data sheet would be nice :)10:25
wpwrak_well, we have dsv, that helps :)10:25
viricwhat is dsv?10:25
viric(if it's the schematic 'diff', I still have not used it :)10:25
wpwrak_no, that would be schhist10:26
viricso dsv?10:26
wpwrak_dsv is a very primitive system to download and display data sheets10:26
wpwrak_e.g., in ben-wpan, you do  make dsv  and then it downloads all the data sheets i used10:26
viricah, great thing.10:27
viricComparing, it's far better than not having that10:27
wpwrak_after that, you can  dsv antenna  or  dsv txrx  or  dsv at86rf230  (the latter is equivalent to "txrx") and so on10:27
wpwrak_this "solves" the issue that you can't legally redistribute most data sheets10:28
viricclear10:28
wpwrak_some companies may still frown upon you distributing "deep links", but that's a lot less likely to draw hostile attention than anything else10:28
viricsure10:30
virichow are the wpan tests going10:30
viric?10:30
viricdo you take notes of the progress anywhere else than the repository?10:31
wpwrak_this is how it's going: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/ants-s1.png10:32
wpwrak_(notes) well, i have some local notes. and of course occasionally pictures10:33
viricand you publish them specially through irc?10:33
wpwrak_;-)10:33
viric:)10:33
viricthe signal strength is in SNR?10:33
wpwrak_if they are of more than a passing interest, i post them in a mail or reference them in the repository10:34
viricok10:34
wpwrak_uh, i'm not even sure what unit that signal strength would be. it's just something that looks more or less "right"10:34
viricwhere do you get that number from?10:35
wpwrak_the objective is to find the best antenna, so as long as they all use the same algorithm, the actual numbers don't matter so much10:35
viricok10:35
viricand the testing conditions are a reasonable distance?10:35
wpwrak_well ... i emit a test signal, receive the wave, strip the initial samples (they're often distorted), do an fft, then drop all the values below a certain threshold, sum the ones within a certain interval, and hope for the best :-)10:36
wpwrak_about 3 m between antennas10:37
wpwrak_378 cm10:38
viricwhere is the repository for your ben-wpan?10:40
wpwrak_git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-wpan.git10:41
viricthank you! I was looking exactly for this10:42
viricoh permission denid10:42
wpwrak_hmm, then check  http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/help/10:44
wpwrak_there are two ways to access it. one may require keys.10:44
viricwhere to get keys?10:45
viriclet me see10:45
viricah10:45
viricthat page solved10:45
wpwrak_(keys) whem you go to http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/preferences/, you can upload your ssh key10:46
viricah good10:47
wpwrak_that may help in this case (not entirely sure. maybe you'd also have to have commit access for this type of clone to work.)10:47
wpwrak_anyway, the files are the same :)10:47
viricsure10:47
viricyou made your own usb-wpan too? not only that of the ben? :)10:48
wpwrak_we need both :)10:49
viricsure10:49
viricbut I thought you could have used one sold mainstream10:50
viric(if there are)10:50
wpwrak_and it seems that all the commercial offerings suck on one way or another10:50
wpwrak_(hard to find / not open enough / too large, etc.)10:50
kristianpaulwhats is better: wait for signal telling the data is ready to be read or use a set signal then wait for the data12:40
wpwrak_kristianpaul: huh ?13:10
kristianpaulwpwrak_: he :)13:23
kristianpauljust trolling my self with some diagrams13:27
wpwrak_;-)13:27
kristianpaulwoah [OT] http://www.elpais.com/global/13:29
Action: kristianpaul lunch time13:29
wpwrak_(wikileaks) oh, that should be fun ;-))13:41
kyakehm, guys15:11
kyaksay, there is a samsung tv, and it has serial port in some vga pins (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/samygo/index.php?title=Ex-Link_Cable_for_C-Series)15:11
kyakthe voltage level is 3.3 V15:11
kyakthey suggest using a special cable for that (with voltage convertter)15:12
kyakbut since Ben already has 3.3 V serial pins, can i connect those directly?15:12
kristianpaulseems yes15:13
kyaki mean, i want to connect Ben's GND, TXD, and RXD pins on it's back directly to according TV VGA pins15:13
kyakthus avoiding necessity for that cable15:13
kyakgood!15:13
kyakif i brick that tv, Ben might help :)15:14
kristianpaulr u sure is 3.3v?15:14
kyakon tv?15:15
kristianpauli mean didi you measure15:15
kristianpaulyes15:15
kyakit says "As the TV has TTL level serial output (3.3V)"15:15
kristianpauls/didi/did15:15
kristianpaulyeah i saw15:15
kyakbut i didn't measure (i don't even have the tv yet)15:15
kristianpaulwell seems the ben can save you all thos adapters15:15
kyakthis is cool15:15
kyakim trying to imagine my further actions15:15
kyakshould i connect to ttyS0 with minicom?15:16
kristianpaulhe i wonder if at time that wiki was written was aware of ftdi chips15:16
kyakand i will see the console outptu from TV?15:16
kristianpaulwell i dont known if your tc have such us console15:16
kristianpaulminicom?..15:16
kyaki guess max232 is just more common than ftdi..?15:16
kristianpaulsure15:16
kyakyes, after having all these hardware connections, how do i actually use the console?15:17
kristianpaulah yes minicoom i nbevr used but i know what it is15:17
kyakok\15:17
kyaki don't really understand at the moment15:17
kyakthis procedure..15:17
kristianpaulah service menu15:17
kyakit is like: my shell <-> minicom <-> ttyS0 <-> TV serial port15:18
kristianpaulok seems it should work with ben indeed15:18
kristianpaulsorry i was readint the wiki first15:19
kristianpaulsound like a plan15:19
kyakyep, thank you :)15:19
kyaki'm considering this C-series tv from Samsung15:19
kyakand there are guys overthere that seem to hack it successfully15:20
kyakit has linux on board15:20
kristianpaulwhat you want a hack on it?15:20
Action: kristianpaul dont have TV15:20
kyakbasically i just want to play files from smb/nfs share15:20
kyakthat's all15:20
kristianpauloh it have ethernet as well?15:20
kyaksure15:20
kyakethernet and usb15:20
kristianpaulawesome15:20
kyakand i can plug wifi in there15:20
kristianpaulTV are computers now15:20
kyakso i plan to connect it to my router15:21
kyakand profit!!15:21
kristianpaulgood for you then :)15:22
kristianpaulif you plan use minicom in openwrt make sure inittan dont lauch tty on it15:22
kyakoh yes, good hint15:23
kristianpauland BTW are you aware of uses of the tty on the nanonote requires soldering some wires?15:23
kyakof course :) i was reading here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Serial_console15:23
kyakhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Papermod_3.jpg15:24
kyaklike this approach15:24
kristianpaulgood, well the other option is uSD bitbanging15:24
kyakwhat is it?15:24
kyakusing some uSD outputs?15:25
kristianpaulyeap15:25
kristianpauluSD is a can work also as PORTD GPIO15:25
kristianpaulwpwrak_: had make a great work around it with wpan15:25
kyakis there info somewhere in wiki?15:26
kristianpauland now seems is develpoing a bitbang lib15:26
kristianpauli wonder if wpwrak_ uses the wiki ;)15:26
kristianpaulbrb evening shower :)15:29
wpwrak_kristianpaul: (wiki) not much. still waiting/hoping for a way to integrate it into the workflow ...16:01
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove  msmtp-queue, Applied in r24176 upstream http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ce7e2ed21:43
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: new package, aewan, Ascii Art Editor http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e357b2c22:55
wpwrak_nice :) now all that's missing is blender ;-)22:59
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: vialtray/tray.pl: y size is 93 mm, not 90; adjust y offset accordingly http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/2c4e3eb23:05
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fix glitch in fft.c and add scripts to display data sets without temp file http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/eafb2a223:16
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ants: added 105% and 115% antennas http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/fa08ac323:52
--- Mon Nov 29 201000:00

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