#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-11-23

kyakwhen compiling kernel on Ben, it throws out-of memory errors (gcc is killed) - though i have swap enabled. With qemu, however, the kernel built just fine02:09
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: watch the holes!! that's nifty antenna design ;-D http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokias-qwerty-slidin-n9-shows-up-in-the-wilds-of-china/#327733302:14
viricwpwrak: minicom is a bit obsolete... I usually use 'cu' from uucp, much newer. :)   Sometimes it fails to disable ctrcts, and I have to run that manually with stty... but it works fine for me. I prefer programs not to do any vt emulation - I already have a vt compatible xterm for that!03:35
LunaVoraxHi everyone !04:04
LunaVoraxIs there any possible hack for the Ben Nanonote to support video out/vga out ?04:04
wolfspraulLunaVorax: I doubt it04:07
kyaki'm not sure about the possibility of such hardware hack. However, it can might be done in software (with vnc server?)04:09
kyak"can might", yes :)04:09
kyakLunaVorax: what is your intention anyway?04:10
LunaVoraxkyak, connecting the nanonote to a screen or a tv04:14
LunaVoraxBut no, no vnc04:14
LunaVoraxI'm working on a open arcade machine (not emulation but a platform to develop games on)04:15
LunaVoraxSo I was wondering if the nanonote could handle video out04:15
kyakyeah, i understand about the tv connection. but why?04:15
LunaVoraxI guess I'll have to wait for the nanonote2 (can't remember the name of it)04:16
wolfspraulYa!04:17
LunaVoraxHaha04:17
LunaVoraxI just need a device with internet connection + video/audio out + storage04:18
LunaVoraxOr using a milkymist ?04:18
LunaVoraxI dunno04:18
kyakbtw, i'm considering a TV with Ethernet/WiFi04:19
LunaVoraxkyak, what do you mean ?04:19
kyaki mean, i don't want to connect  my laptop to TV with cables to watch movies :)04:20
virickyak: you prefer microwaves all around? :)04:20
viricthey can't be bad - they are invisible04:20
kyakviric:  they are already around us, with me or without me :)04:20
LunaVoraxHaha viric :D04:21
LunaVoraxMust go guys, see you04:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: (sdl/gnuplot) sdl is really easy. of course, in cases where good old gnuplot will do, that's even easier :)06:27
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: (antenna) erm, where/what is it ? ;-)06:27
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: a helix printed on plastic, a coil06:28
wpwrakviric: (minicom) yeah, i don't particularly like that whole "terminal emulation" and "pop-up config menu" thing either. most of the time it just gets in the way. cu is great :)06:29
DocScrutinizeran antenna06:29
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: closely look at the right uppermost and bottom mounting screw holes06:30
DocScrutinizernext to the golden printed antenna strips06:30
viricwpwrak: the terminal emulation often works worse than it should. For example, it has the default of not line wrap!06:32
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: there's also http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokias-qwerty-slidin-n9-shows-up-in-the-wilds-of-china/#3277340  left side bottom06:32
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: oh. the stuff that looks like sidewalls reflecting the light. interesting :) can we abduct of or two neurons of the engineer who did that ? :)06:33
wpwrakviric: that was exactly what i was thinking of, too ;-))06:34
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: quite impressive indeed06:38
DocScrutinizerindeed, and probably a good antenna design as well06:38
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: heh, would be ironic if it was just for show ;-)06:39
DocScrutinizerhaha06:39
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: but i guess apple has all the patents on that :)06:39
wpwrakflashy antennas that don't work :)06:39
DocScrutinizergnhnhnhn06:40
DocScrutinizerwell, looks like a proper shortened lamba/4 with footpoint L06:42
wpwrakDocScrutinizer:  it looks like cheating physics ;-)06:45
wpwrakDocScrutinizer:  fold not only i two but in three dimensions06:45
wpwraks/i/in/06:45
DocScrutinizerhehe06:46
DocScrutinizerwell, Nokia seems always knew their RF stuff06:53
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: yup. nokia and apple should merge. rf from nokia, marketing from apple. instant world domination :)06:54
DocScrutinizerOMG06:54
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: of course, considering how mergers often go, it would probably be RF from apple with nokia marketing ...06:55
Action: DocScrutinizer flees to another planet06:55
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: this latter one almost could compete with OM then06:56
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: in 2014, some bored and unhappy engineers from both camps will secretly build a time machine.06:58
DocScrutinizerwill resemble that antenna design, I bet06:59
rohyes. the milkymist mechanical prototype board arrived07:01
wpwrakroh: will you try the same kind of design as before ?07:08
rohdunno yet. i guess so. but this time using a mill and acryllic07:11
rohgot a blue-transparent 3mm sheet07:12
rohi guess i could sell some later, when i can 'do more' and the process works07:12
rohbut i dunno if there would be demand for such stuff. any ideas?07:13
wpwrak(milled acrylic) sound good.07:13
wpwrak(demand) for MM1 boxes or boxes in different shapes based on the same design ?07:13
rohlasered for the most part. only the notch would be milled07:13
rohdemand as in 'would somebody buy these at all' ;)07:14
wpwrakwould you laser and mill the same part or laser-only the sidewalls and mill-only the top/bottom plates ?07:15
lekernel__roh: we would definitely include them at least with the first low-volume boards07:15
rohi think i would laser the outlines of all parts and only mill the groove to keep cost down07:15
wpwrak(buy) i think MM1 needs a case and they don't have anything else, so ...:) of course, they have to like yours. i guess it's too early to tell whether the mechanical side will be okay07:16
wpwrakah, there's the answer :)07:16
wpwrakroh: (mix mill and laser) ah, interesting. i would have thought moving parts from one machine to the other, along with realignment, would be more work07:17
lekernel__roh: if they're ready in time, maybe even with the very first boards (the series of 35 we're manufacturing atm)07:18
wpwrakof course, cutting through to the bottom can be a bit tricky with a mill07:18
lekernel__roh: how expensive is that acrylic btw?07:18
rohsure. i would need to build some kind of 'alignment helper' then07:18
rohlekernel__ the material isnt the expensive part. i think the plasic is only a few euros (<10 or so)07:19
lekernel__per case?07:19
rohthe most cost comes from machines and labour07:19
rohsure07:19
lekernel__damn, that's expensive plastic!07:19
wpwrakacrylic is expensive :)07:20
lekernel__can ABS be used instead?07:20
lekernel__if a small case is ~10 euros of plastic, I wonder how manufacturers of, say, big TV sets that sell for 100¬ could break even07:21
lekernel__or is it just that raw materials bought in small shops in Europe carry a big profit margin for them?07:22
wpwraklekernel__: (cheaper cases) they don't use acrylic :)07:23
lekernel__yeah, they use ABS instead... can't it work in the laser cutter?07:23
rohlekernel__ i think the acryllic itself is about 7 euros or so, but i have to get it or let it be shipped. still not the issue. lasering takes atleast 15minutes + manual work07:23
rohand i havent gotten any labels on it yet.07:24
rohlekernel__ i havent gotten results with abs yet. i guess its more difficult to laser (different melting/vaporisations behaviour)07:30
wpwrakroh: so it would be "save EUR 5/box on materials, blow EUR 100/box on R&D" :)07:39
rohheh. if i would account for my time at the lowest usual rate, sure.07:39
rohis there some 'official label per socket' already or do i need to 'find something fitting' myself?07:40
rohe.g. rather 'LAN' or 'lan' .. or 'ethernet' .. or 'Ethernet' ?07:40
roh .oO(where can i find the logo as vector art?)07:41
wpwrakroh: or just take a dremel and do some action painting ;-)07:44
lekernel__roh: i'll mail you08:01
lekernel__there's no logo as vector art yet (unfortunately)08:01
lekernel__http://lekernel.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/newlogo.png08:02
lekernel__http://lekernel.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/newlogo_dandelion.png08:02
lekernel__roh: mailed08:09
rohi got 'DC 5V IN' on the pwr socket now.08:11
rohsomehow i like having atleast a voltage label on 'things' ;) .. its + in the middle?08:12
lekernel__yes08:12
lekernel__you can also write +/-5% if you want to insist on that08:12
lekernel__that's what the PCB silkscreen already says, but printing on the silkscreen is for free :)08:13
rohhrhr08:13
lekernel__(rc2, not the rc1 you have)08:13
rohah. was wondering08:13
rohanything different besides that (mechanically)08:14
lekernel__http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Milkymist_one_rc2_bare_pcb_top.jpg08:14
lekernel__holes are 3.3mm instead of 3mm, but apart from that it's all the same08:14
rohok :)08:23
rohpower is really the middle button?08:23
rohsw208:23
lekernel__yes, you don't like it?08:23
lekernel__it doesn't power off if you press it again btw08:24
rohhihi08:25
rohdunno. just found it unobvious08:25
lekernel__(and changing it isn't complicated either, it's only a matter of re-flashing)08:25
lekernel__worst case I can make it power up on any button press :)08:26
rohso i write ' '3  2 1' above the buttons?08:26
lekernel__mh08:26
rohand render  on   standby in vertical where the led hole was08:26
lekernel__I would prefer '1 2 3', but we named the buttons on the PCB in the opposite order08:27
roh:)08:27
lekernel__maybe write nothing at all...08:27
rohi'll do that.08:27
lekernel__or 'A B C'08:27
rohmaybe we can find some button-caps in 3 colors ;)08:28
lekernel__ah, yes, good idea!08:28
lekernel__I prefer that :)08:28
rohshould i label the leds then?08:29
lekernel__yeah, label the leds08:29
rohhm.  yes. rotated 60° to the right08:36
wolfspraulkyak: you there?10:53
wolfspraulI was wondering which of the graphical toolkits on the Ben would have the lowest resource usage now10:56
wolfspraulwe can probably assume GTK and Qt are rather heavy10:56
wolfspraulso that leaves SDL, libdirectfb, linuxfb?10:57
wolfspraulis linuxfb just a /dev node, or also a library?10:57
wolfspraulwhich one is the thinnest/lightest?10:58
lekernel__wolfspraul: there's also MTK, but there are no applications using it except mine :)10:58
wolfspraulMTK?10:58
lekernel__it's by far the lightest10:58
lekernel__https://github.com/lekernel/mtk10:58
wolfspraulMilkymist Toolkit?10:58
lekernel__yes, toolkit used by flickernoise10:58
lekernel__based on genode fx10:58
wolfspraulhow does it draw?10:59
wolfspraulwould it run on Linux?10:59
wolfspraul(the kernel)10:59
lekernel__just pass it a raw framebuffer10:59
lekernel__definitely, it's ANSI C without any special system call10:59
lekernel__one could probably port it to linux in 20 minutes, unlike X :)11:00
lekernel__but it lacks some type of server so several processes can use it at the same time11:00
lekernel__the original Genode toolkit had it, but I stripped it out as I didn't need it11:01
wolfspraulhmm11:02
wolfspraulOK11:02
wolfspraulinteresting, thanks!11:02
lekernel__unfortunately, the Genode GUI stuff has been pretty unmaintained for 6 years11:02
wolfspraulI would still like to understand the differences between SDL & libdirectfb, or linuxfb, but if porting mtk is easy, why not :-)11:02
lekernel__so I just forked it, and implemented the stuff I needed and removed that I didn't11:02
wolfspraulsure11:02
wolfspraulsoftware doesn't age, especially not if it's well documented and builds upon good long-term base technologies11:03
lekernel__porting it is trivial, I got it running on x86 linux, lm32 linux, lm32 rtems and lm32 bare metal11:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: perhaps you should first specify what you expect the toolkit to do :) e.g., should it have functions to draw pixels, lines, etc. ? do you expect text ? maybe even buttons and such ? windows ? ...11:07
lekernel__mtk has those, and more :)11:08
lekernel__i'll try to post a flickernoise video this friday11:08
lekernel__(and f**k embedded X11 :))11:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: sure I know :-) I'm just lazy. I guess I don't want it to do much.11:09
wolfspraul320x240 pixel screen11:09
lekernel__it needs a mouse, though11:09
wolfspraulI'm thinking about the launcher. something much smaller than gmenu2x, just a few icons on the screen, done. (ok, wallpaper support :-))11:11
lekernel__MTK has wallpaper support :)11:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: if you want the pure minimum, SDL may be for you. it gives you the naked frame buffer and a mapping of color. that's it. all the rest is you calculating pointers from coordinates, writing color bit patterns into the frame buffer, and finally telling SDL to display it.11:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, if it's just a matrix of icons, that may indeed work. (SDL has libraries that build on top of it, so you can get fancy things like lines :)11:12
wolfspraulmaybe I could write my 'icons only' launcher with pygame then11:12
wolfspraulI read somewhere pygame can interface with SDL.11:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, this is and SDL program: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/good-font.png11:14
wpwrak(SDL + SDL_gfx, for line drawing)11:14
wpwrakcode; http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/tools/atrf-rssi/11:15
rohhm. need more acrylic *sigh*11:15
wpwrakroh: you should switch to HDPE :)11:15
wolfspraulroh: btw, I have no problem with wood either, not at all actually. From the distance I don't know what the advantages of acrylic are. There must be some I guess.11:28
wolfspraullekernel__ mentioned the wood case is not stable and not strong enough, that would be important.11:28
lekernel__roh: btw if you're using acrylic, maybe we can get rid of the little window for the LEDs?11:29
wpwraki would think that the instability is mainly caused by the way the top and bottom plates are held together11:29
rohlekernel__ i already removed the ir and the led holes11:32
wpwrakimpact and pressure resistance of acrylic should be considerably better than for thin sheets of wood. there's also the question of making it look nice. you can of course paint the wood, but that's extra work, too.11:32
lekernel__imo it would look better, and prevent dust collection11:33
lekernel__ok, we need to check if IR rays can still go through11:33
wpwraklekernel__: (dust) you mean compared to untreated wood ?11:35
rohi tested it with a ir remote and a dvb reciever11:35
roheven the 'opaque' to visible light stuff works reasonablsy well11:36
lekernel__wpwrak: no, I just mean dust going into the LED/IR window11:36
rohi found one which is called 'Plexiglas truLED(R)' which is really nice11:36
wpwraklekernel__: ah yes, just an opening wouldn't be so nice11:38
rohthe whole box would be ir transparent11:38
qbjectMorning, folks!11:49
wolfspraulqbject: morning, but logging out (late at night here :-))11:51
wolfspraulI'll read the backlog tomorrow...11:51
kristianpaulwpwrak: (good-font.png) woa nice drawing12:11
kristianpaullekernel__: about mtk, do you save some screenshots and features, may be starting with primitives?12:12
kristianpaulmorning qbject12:13
kristianpaullekernel__: (ABS)dunno is for laser cutter, you need starting protyiping later send it to plastic mold injection as far as i know12:15
kristianpaulwood will be ok just for starting, all people start with it12:15
kristianpaul(wolfspraul would still like to understand the differences between SDL & libdirectfb, or linuxfb) mee too12:16
lekernel__kristianpaul: only one screenshot atm, feel free to make more e.g. using qemu + flickernoise12:17
lekernel__I'm busy with coding and have limited time for screenshots12:17
kristianpaulsure12:17
kristianpaulwpwrak: HDPE -> cool for small and accurate stuff, not sure hwo good for cases, afaik i dint got HPDE to test on my machine :/13:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: don't really know either. but it's available in abundance at your next supermarket ;-)13:29
viricI'm getting hands on the nanonote again13:32
viricI want it to boot the rootfs I told it to :)13:32
viricWa! Removing the console=ttyS0, my rootfs boots fine!13:38
viric+10 points!13:38
viricwpwrak: do you know how to halt the nanonote? busybox 'halt' does not seem to do anything special13:40
wpwrak/sbin/halt -fp  perhaps ?13:41
viricit does not know 'p'13:41
wpwrakhas the desired effect on jlime13:41
viricbut for '-f', it says System halted.13:42
virichm13:42
wpwrakand. is it halted ? :)13:42
viricthere is echo on the screen :)13:42
viricit's not turned off, and there is echo on keys pressed13:42
wpwrakon jlime: ls -l /sbin/halt13:42
wpwrak /sbin/halt -> halt.sysvinit13:43
viricah, it's sysvinit13:43
viricI use busybox.13:43
wpwrakjust another busyboxism, i guess13:43
virichm13:43
viricit does not look like so. it looks like a workaround not to call busybox, but sysvinit's halt13:43
viricI'll download such a jlime13:44
wpwrakno, i mean that busybox doesn't implement this the right way or at least not in a way that fits with the rest of the system13:44
viricwpwrak: right. '-p' was for power off?13:44
wpwrakjlime's /sbin/halt is clearly meant not to be busybox :)13:44
wpwrakyup13:44
viricok13:44
viricI'll spy them13:44
virici'll try to boot it in qemu13:45
wpwraktraditionally, halt just tells init to shut down. so that interaction has to be right. not sure if -fp also goes via init or if halt does it all locally13:45
viricwell I'm using busybox init. :)13:46
wpwrakyeah, busybox ... it's just that sort of things you have to deal with when using it13:46
viricI'll switch from that13:46
viricbut that's something minimal to start from13:46
wpwrakit's nice if you have a simple fixed-feature set device. but for something more like a laptop, i find the whole concept very dubious13:47
viricI may use upstart.13:47
wpwrakyeah, it's a start ... :)13:47
viricouch, upstart uses dbus.13:48
wpwrakwell, it could use .NET ... ;-)13:50
viricis .NET big?13:50
viricisn't it popular in embedded devices?13:51
viricwell, quite powerful as the nanonote I mean13:51
viricI wonder the difference in 'halt'...  in qemu malta, busybox halt works fine13:52
viricwhat is the trick to make a login without asking any password?14:30
wpwraktouch /etc/shadow; passwd14:30
wpwrak[Enter][Enter]14:30
wpwrakoh wait. it still asks14:30
viric:)14:30
wpwrakthat was empty password14:31
viricit is not bad14:31
wpwrakfor no password you have to copy your public key over14:31
viricwhat public key?14:31
wpwraknaturally, dropbear doesn't accept the same location customary with openssh14:32
wpwrakyur ssh key. oh, you mean login by some other means ?14:32
viricscreen login14:32
viric:)14:32
viricI'm still at an early stage, wpwrak! :)14:32
wpwrakuh, dunno how it works there. some systems just let you in if there's no password in /etc/shadow or /etc/passwd14:33
viricI just wrote some inittab.14:33
viricwpwrak: got it! nothing between the colons in /etc/passwd, for the password field.14:55
wpwrakyep, no password :)15:00
viricmine already runs a boot script and logs in :) super15:01
viricdoes someone remember where to get a good keymap for loadkeys?16:08
rafaviric: http://jlime.com/downloads/releases/muffinman/keymaps/16:37
viricgreat!16:37
kristianpaulwpwrak: (supermaker) in 3mm filament roll?20:30
kristianpaulsupermarket*20:30
kristianpaulUSRP portable  http://oz9aec.net/index.php/gnu-radio/gnu-radio-blog/403-usrp-e100-now-on-sale20:53
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes i think you should add this blog to the planet, at least the gnuradio tag20:53
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add qc icon in gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9d51ca621:29
kristianpaul7win 1421:31
wolfspraul7 != /21:34
xiangfuwolfspraul: Hi the qtdemo at "/usr/share/Qt/demos"21:35
xiangfuwolfspraul: each folder have one execute binary file.21:35
Action: xiangfu downloading the 1123 images.21:36
wolfspraulhmm, the README files in that folder mentions a 'qtdemo' launcher for all demos and examples21:40
xiangfuwolfspraul: the feeds/packages/Xorg/lib/qt4/Makefile shows that 'qtdemo' not install21:48
xiangfuthere is a folder name "qtdemo" under '...qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.0/demos' but it not compiled21:50
xiangfufrom the "makefile" of Qt4. it only install files to /usr/lib/. none of /usr/bin/21:53
wolfspraulhmm, if qtdemo would work well on the NanoNote, maybe we should include it?21:55
xiangfuthere are 35 folder under the '...qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.0/demos' (I guess each one is a demo)21:58
xiangfubut only 16 of them install in NanoNote.21:58
xiangfus/35/2521:58
xiangfufrom the "makefile" we have pass "-make demos" to configure. so we better ask Mirko. sine he know more about Qt.21:59
xiangfubut I think 16 demos is enough :)22:00
wolfspraulI tried one of them, gave a lot of errors and finally a segfault.22:08
xiangfuwolfspraul: I only tried the 'testedit'22:08
wolfsprauland the 'qtdemo' launcher is missing, that's probably nice to quickly go through them22:08
xiangfuwolfspraul: hmm.. I will try find out why 'qtdemo' not install  later .22:22
wolfspraulsure, not urgent22:22
kristianpaulwolfspra1l: fprintf(stderr, ":-(\n");22:28
kristianpauloops22:28
kristianpaulit was for wpwrak:22:28
xakhhi! Anyone know how to load up Doom, Quake, and Powder on the most current version of the Nano?22:54
xakhxiangfu: ping22:55
xakh.... anyone here?22:57
xiangfuxakh: Hi. I think just download the copy them to NanoNote22:59
xakhalright, cool.22:59
xiangfuxakh: there is one page in wiki. let me search22:59
xakhI used to hang out here a lot in july, you guys probably don't remember me at this point.23:00
xakhI've had it since then, and basically used it as a free software gaming handheld, blew people away with it too23:00
wolfspraulnice, we are trying to get more games on it23:00
wolfspraulso far I only played worm :-)23:01
xakhalso, anyone have the ipk files for leafpad and netsurf23:01
wolfspraul342 points...23:01
xiangfuxakh: this one: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote_Software_Demos23:01
wolfspraulI am optimistic at some point love2d should work well, bartbes is on it23:01
xakhthanks!23:01
xakhhow about Powder?23:02
xakhxiangfu: I remember either you or Tuxbrain were big fans of powder, and now I can't find that cache of weird games I installed on here.23:03
xiangfuxakh: not me :(23:03
xakhdang23:03
xakhoh hey! I found Powder in Zear's folder!23:06
xakhZear was who I was looking for.23:07
xakhit's been about 5 months since I was here last, sorry for the confusion23:08
xakhso, what have you guys been up to since July?23:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: (plastic) naw, in thin sheets (bags). you can melt them down to whatever shape. filaments may be tricky, though :)23:08
xakh????23:09
wpwrakkristianpaul: (":-(\n") a self-explaining error message :)23:09
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah :)23:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: woah!  you write own code for digits, you are close to have own lib for X11 alternative ;-)23:17
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add netsurf, add Internet group http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/73829d123:31
xiangfuxakh: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/openwrt-xburst.full_system/bin/xburst/packages/netsurf_r10948-1_xburst.ipk23:32
xiangfuxakh ^ hope you read log :)23:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: (digits) yeah ;-) that was mainly because i need a very small font. and the text-drawing functions of SDL_gfx didn't want to work :)23:39
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