#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-11-22

kyakviric: hia! are you there?02:21
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add wget, nfs-utils, netcat http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/de462b902:45
virickyak: yes03:00
kyakviric: since you are the only known qemu expert to me, let me ask you some questions :)03:04
kyakfirst of all, i decided to start with a regular ext2 image as a rootfs.. i did dd, mke2fs, mounted image, copied rootfs files there - this stage had no problem i think03:05
kyakthen i append root=/dev/hda, but qemu outputs some weird messages about "pgrep: No matching criteria specified"03:06
kyakand then thereis kernel panic03:07
kyakmy roots is mounted fine as i see above from kernel output03:07
kyakwhat do you think it could be?03:08
viriccan you paste the log?03:08
kyaksure, one sec03:09
kyak(i terminate qemu manually at the end)03:12
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [new package] ctronome, programmable console metronome software http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/663b89403:21
xiangfukyak: what rootfs you using ?03:29
virickyak: maybe the kernel is not calling 'init' properly03:29
virickyak: you may need to pass init= to the cmdline03:29
viricit looks like calling pgrep instead of init. How, I don't know :)03:29
kyakxiangfu: i use staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-*03:30
kyakviric: ok, lemme check03:30
kyakwhat troubles me though is that there's staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc- and staging_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-
kyaktwo different files03:31
kyakviric: btw, i tryed to remove the pgrep from rootfs - didn't help :)03:31
xiangfukyak: by default openwrt kernel will only try "/etc/preinit"03:31
kyaki even tryed to remove init03:31
kyaknothing had changed03:31
kyakxiangfu: it's malta kernel03:31
xiangfukyak: ok.03:32
viricset init=/etc/preinit03:32
kyakthe one qemu has support for03:32
viricif it's what openwrt meant to be as init03:32
kyakinit=/etc/preinit made the pgrep error go away03:33
kyaknow i have just "Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init!"03:33
viricWhat is that 'init'? busybox init?03:41
viricDo you have /dev/console in the filesystem?03:41
kyakinit is a link to busybox03:42
kyakthereis not /dev/console. isn't it created automatically?03:42
viricYou need to become root and 'mknod' the files into the filesystem, or use a 'device table' :)03:42
viricat the time of making the filesystem03:43
kyakstrange.. i thought  all files in /dev are created automatically03:43
kyakduring boot03:43
virickyak: well, you need a minimum of them03:43
virickyak: /dev/console *only*, in fact.03:43
viricor init will die.03:43
kyakok, will create it now03:43
viricmkfs.ext2 does not allow for a device table though. You'll have to become root, mount the fs and mknod it03:43
kyakcd dev; mknod console c 5 103:46
kyakdidn't help -\03:47
kyaki wonder why it dies silently... almost impossible to debug03:49
viricmaybe /dev/console is not enough03:54
viriclet me check...03:54
viricI can't find my notes about that03:58
viricI recall only /dev/console03:58
kyaki wonder how does openwrt boot if it doesn't have those04:00
virickyak: it should have those. you may have done something wrong in the ext204:06
kyaki'll try unpacking the rootfs.tar.gz now instead of copying those files from root-xburst04:07
viricuse 'p' on unpacking04:07
viricand '-a' if you copy04:07
kyaki unpack as root anyway04:07
virickyak: sure, as root, but use those.04:08
kyakwill do04:08
viricthat device_table.txt says what I have in /dev04:08
viricMaybe you need /dev/null to?04:08
kyaki'll create all of those if they are not in tar.gz04:09
xiangfukyak: check "root-xburst/lib/preinit/*" which exec by /etc/preinit of openwrt.04:09
viricnow I think console and null are the needed. :)04:09
kyakxiangfu: hm.. an amount of scripts there.. i assume some of them fails?04:11
kyakok, the /dev in tar.gz is empty,  too04:11
viricmake console and null04:11
kyakit worked!04:13
kyakLinux BenNanoNote 2.6.36-20850-gace61dc #1 SMP Mon Nov 22 09:43:21 MSK 2010 mips GNU/Linux04:13
viricHa! :)04:14
kyakviric: thanks :)04:14
viricAll this is full of non trivialities I had once to defeat :)04:14
viricnow that you know all I know, go and spread it!04:14
kyakviric: oh, i created the /dev/null in case you didn't understand :)04:14
viricI know I know04:15
kyaki think some of those preinit script create these files04:15
viricI was almost sure 'null' had to be there04:15
kyakbut maybe they fail04:15
viricI think that without /dev/console, the kernel cannot run the init04:15
viricmaybe it needs null too.04:16
wolfspraulyes please, write it up on some wiki page...04:16
kyaknow, the thing i wanted to do for a long time04:16
viricI mean that maybe it's not up to 'init', but up to the kernel04:16
kyakcompare gcc speed on real Ben and on emulated Ben :)04:18
kyakthough that malta board is slower than Ben04:18
virickyak: I don't think qemu is emulating the 'slowness' haha04:38
virickyak: how much ram you use there?04:38
viricxiangfu: having jtag access to the xburst cpu is only a matter of wiring on the board?04:49
wpwrakviric: the JTAG signals should all be accessible on test points04:53
wpwrakviric: not sure what the software support side looks like, though04:53
wpwrakviric: what would you use it for ? i've been looking for a strong reason to support jtag in idbg, but haven't found one so far04:54
xiangfuviric: I think so.04:54
viricwpwrak: I think openocd has files for it04:58
viricfor xburst...04:58
viricwpwrak: not one? attaching a gdb to the kernel is nice. :)04:58
viricwpwrak: I used that to debug a kernel failing to boot on the sheevaplug04:58
viricwith such a developed kernel, maybe now is not needed.04:59
viricI think that the nanonote community now has few people having even their own build kernels05:00
viricso few deal with kernel related trouble (like kyak felt some minutes ago in qemu)05:00
wpwrakviric: (only few people) yeah, that's true05:02
wpwrakviric: i remember from the OM days that the main use of JTAG there was to do the initial NAND load of the system. but we don't need JTAG for this on the ben05:03
viricwpwrak: ah, I was supposing the processor jtag would allow for breakpoints and things like that05:03
wpwrakviric: in OM, i hardly ever used JTAG to debug kernel problems. maybe 2-3 times. the tricky ones were often in the suspend/resume path anyway, which conflicted with JTAG05:04
wpwrakviric: yes, breakpoints and all that should be there05:04
wpwrakviric: (OM) another problem was of course that, in addition to the general fragility of openocd, our debug board had reliability of its own. so many times, trying to jtag meant to spend half the day just fighting reticent infrastructure.05:06
wpwrakviric: on the ben, we could at least overcome the hardware side of the unreliability. at least i don't see wolfgang or adam add a cute little fpc with external debug board anytime soon ;-)05:08
wpwrakflat plastic cable / flexible printed circuit05:10
wpwrakor, in this case, more accurately, "fragile piece of crap" :)05:10
wolfspraulwpwrak: you've asked about boom timing the other day05:11
wolfspraulAdam is making good progress on Milkymist One RC2, so maybe in 3 weeks or so that project could wrap up05:11
wolfspraulthere are still details like power adapter, jtag-serial board, case05:11
wolfspraulso maybe add a week or two05:11
wolfspraulbut right after that I will start with Xue, and I think first of all that means the boomification05:11
wpwrakviric: it really had everything: excessive manufacturing tolerances, material fatigue on the connectors at both ends, easily triggered fatal failure modes (breakage) on both ends, hairline cracks in the cable itself, ...05:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: (boom timing) excellent ! that'll work very well05:12
wolfspraulanother item on my todo list is to add some more command lines to KiCad, similar to your --plot, but for layout generation, and bom .lst file generation, etc.05:12
wolfspraulI should also get to that in December hopefully05:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, ready to face the C++ dragon ? :)05:13
wolfspraulno worries05:13
wolfspraulyes, ready05:13
wolfspraulremember my past as a paid coder05:13
wolfspraulonce upon a time I had the passion, energy, enthousiasm to read entire Stroutroup books cover to cover, trying to understand every detail of that language05:14
wolfspraulthat bastard stole my youth :-)05:14
wpwraknow we know where old bitter coders come from :)05:14
wolfsprauldetermined, not bitter05:14
wolfspraulthat's what you learn from C++05:15
wolfspraulso yes, no worries I'm sure I get those command lines in there. it has to be, no complaining.05:15
wpwrakgreat. a bit more scriptability will go a long way.05:16
wolfspraulbtw, I'm happy to report that Milkymist One software is really getting somewhere05:16
wolfspraulAdam is diving in, able to reflash, run test software, etc.05:16
wolfspraulthat's a great sign both for the state of software, and also for Adam's ability to survive in the sometimes harsh FOSS world05:17
wolfspraul"hey, no attachments!"05:17
wolfsprauland so on...05:17
wpwrakvery good ! does the hardware look sane so far ?05:17
wolfspraulwe have made PCBs05:17
wpwraki mean, no surprise bugs05:17
wolfspraulif it's not sane now we are insane05:17
wolfspraulwell who knows05:17
wolfspraulno risk no fun05:17
wolfspraulI sure hope so, it's my money that is on the line.05:17
wolfspraulpcbs are made, and back in the warehouse05:18
wolfspraulall components are in the warehouse05:18
wpwrakah, no smt yet. good.05:18
wolfspraulnow we are preparing the files for the SMT place, and schedule an appointment there05:18
wpwrakyou just had a small number of samples smt'ed, right ?05:18
wolfspraulin parallel Adam is exercising his testing muscles05:18
wolfspraulmaybe SMT next week? depends on the SMT house (Minbo again)05:18
wolfspraulwe are a small customer, that has pros and cons. At least we are a repeat customer (4th time now).05:19
wolfspraulbecause we are small, they can squeeze us in somewehre to fill idle times between or within larger jobs05:19
wolfspraulthen we do x-ray, lots of testing, jtag-serial, power adapters, etc. etc.05:19
wolfspraulstill lots of work05:19
kyakviric: (ram on malta) more than necessary :) 128 Mb.. you are right, comparing speed is useless, it can't "slow down"05:19
wpwrak(smt) ah, none yet. i misunderstood adam't mail then. that's just the boards. i had already wondered why there was no mention of whether the board(s) worked at all and such :)05:19
wpwrak(repeat customer) you're already family ;-)05:20
wolfspraulno SMT yet, like I described05:20
wolfspraulwe will mail them the files to ask for an appointment in a day or two05:20
wpwrakhow many units will you make in this run ?05:20
wolfspraulthen we need to get a date, unrealistically late this week, more realistically sometime next week, if they are very busy even later05:21
wolfspraulour goal is 35 functioning units05:21
wolfspraulwe made 52 pcbs05:21
wolfspraulso don't know, maybe smt 40?05:21
wolfspraulyou can react on the line, to a degree05:21
wolfsprauldepends on how quick everybody is, and how quick good decisions can be made :-)05:22
wpwrak(react) good. i remember from OM that is was basically one board at a time until the beasties would come up at all05:23
wpwrakso "the rest of the batch" may start the morning after, with people finishing at 3 am or so :)05:23
wolfspraulno no05:23
wolfspraulwe are a bit quicker than that :-) that's chaos mode and Adam wouldn't want to work like this.05:24
wolfspraulthat's why I said it's great that software is really improving nicely05:24
wolfspraulthat helps a lot on the line05:24
wpwrakhmm. sounds like a reasonable mode of operation to me. of course, you have to come prepared ...05:24
wolfspraulI need to take a closer look at the invoice.05:25
wolfspraulI think basically you are renting the line per hour.05:25
wolfspraul(including the people at the line)05:25
wolfspraulthen extras depending on what happens or what is needed05:25
wpwrakah ! so the preparation better be good :)05:26
wolfspraulso there is no problem in 'slowing' down, say you make 1 board and want to test is a bit. the line can wait, 30 minutes, longer, no problem.05:26
wolfspraulthey don't care since you pay by the hour.05:26
wolfspraulso like I said you need to be able to quickly make good decisions.05:26
wpwrakyup. no problem until you run out of cash :)05:26
wolfspraulof course if you have to carry everything home, big discussions, etc. etc. then it gets complicated, slow and expensive.05:26
wpwrakyou basically need a test plan a few steps deep. also with plan B, C, and D for each item.05:27
wpwrakideally, with pre-made go/no go decisions.05:27
wolfspraulwell maybe not C, D, but yes, in general that's the way to go05:27
wolfspraulgood test software, good understanding of the board/system, ability to react (test software needs to have some flexibility)05:28
wolfspraulmost important decision is whether something is reworkable by hand later, and at what cost (cash and time)05:28
wolfspraulbecause if it is, it may not be worth to slow down the pick&place/reflow/aoi line05:29
wolfspraulbut yeah, needs preparation...05:29
wolfspraulso we see05:29
wpwrakdo you use any kind of test hardness (hardware) ?05:29
wolfspraulI don't think so05:29
wolfsprauljust jtag cable05:30
wpwrakok. good old scope and jtag then :)05:30
wolfspraulalso keep in mind it's only the second run, and only 35 units05:30
wolfspraullast time (the first 6 board) were made entirely 'blind' (on Adam's side)05:30
wpwrakevery > 10 is scary for manual testing :)05:30
wolfspraulhe could only do very basic current checks05:31
wolfspraulcompared to that we have a whole SUITE of software now that can run and test all sorts of things...05:31
wolfspraulneedless to say it's 100% gpl05:32
wolfspraul(for the records, who knows when this is googled :-))05:32
wpwrakto make the suite, you need *something* that works. so i guess it's normal for the very first ones to be made "blindly"05:33
wolfspraulsometimes they try to pull all people/brains in for that05:33
wolfspraulmaybe you remember Harald traveled to Taipei for some OLPC first/early run, etc.05:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: I have a question, maybe you can share some knowledge :-)05:34
wolfspraulwhen we make PCBs, we get those microsection pictures05:34
wolfspraulI cannot imagine which part of the PCB that is05:34
wolfspraulthe white area is the copper?05:35
wolfspraulthe 'hole' (?) on the right side is a via?05:35
wolfspraulI don't get it...05:35
wolfsprauland what is checked/verified with this picture?05:35
wolfspraulit seems they look at the thickness of the white strips, whatever they are...05:35
wpwrakhmm, cryptic indeed05:35
wpwrakwhere do you see that hole ?05:36
wolfspraulwell on the right side05:36
wolfspraulthe white strip first goes right, then turns down05:36
wolfspraulwhat is to the right of it?05:36
wolfspraulis that a hole?05:36
wolfsprauloverall I guess we are only looking at something like 30x40mil or so05:37
wolfspraulthey typically send only one such picture with the delivery, so this must contain the key information05:37
wpwrakyou mean the blue/yellow space outside the white border ? that looks like background to me05:37
wolfspraulbackground of what? if the pcb is cut through, the picture is taken from the side maybe?05:38
wolfspraulseems you also don't know :-)05:38
wpwrak(side) ah, lemme check ...05:38
wolfspraulhmm, but those scratch lines are visible everywhere05:39
wolfspraulmaybe they are from cutting05:40
wpwrak53 pixels for 3.823 mil, 447 pixels from top to bottom of image, that would be ...05:41
wpwrak32.24 mil or 1.2 mm05:41
wpwrakcould be a vertical cut05:42
wpwrakhowever, i'd expect to see the layering in a vertical cut05:42
wpwrakerr ...32.24 mil = 0.82 mm05:43
wpwrakdo we have more images ? maybe the area of the corner can be identified somewhere else05:43
wolfspraulno they only include this one image05:44
wolfspraulI will find out more, no worries...05:44
wpwrakah, http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Milkymist_One_RC2_PCB_Specification05:44
wpwrakand it's from manufacturing, not reverse engineering. okay, then the paramters should be in the spec :)05:45
wpwrakhmm no, can't figure it out, sorry05:48
wolfspraulno problem, I'll dig up more information at the next opportunity.05:49
wolfspraulPCB manufacturing is one of my weakest spots.05:49
wpwrakwhen will you take the first kicad-made design to the pcb fab ?05:50
wolfspraulfor the jtag-serial boards Yanjun Luo made, he already used KiCad05:52
wolfspraulof course they are very simple, 2 layer I think05:52
wolfspraulwe need to make more of them05:52
wolfspraulnot sure whether that counts :-)05:52
wolfspraulat a 'bigger' level the next one will be Xue, with all boomification, schematics review etc. still outstanding I'd say actually sending those GERBERs to a PCB maker is at least 2 months out05:52
wolfspraulalso i don't want to rush it actually because we need to 'open' the process, it's one part of the exercise...05:53
wpwrakjtag-serial had boards made at a pcb house ? that's already a good start then05:54
wolfspraulyes sure05:54
wpwrakxue will be more complex/intersting, of course :)05:54
wpwrakjtag-serial was hand-soldered, right ?05:54
wolfspraulhave to think how we do the next 4005:54
wpwrakcould be a good test for kicad-to-smt05:55
wpwrakif anything goes wrong, the damage is limited :)05:55
wolfspraulyes sure but documenting is slow, of course we try to add a little bit more every time05:55
wolfspraulyou can see in the wiki in many areas it's already quite nice now05:56
wolfspraulbut from where I think this can be, maybe we only have really opened up 20% or so of the total process, in a good way05:56
wolfspraulok maybe 50% :-)05:56
wpwrak50% would be quite a lot :)05:57
wolfspraulfrom KiCad to producable gerbers is missing, from KiCad to outsourceable SMT is missing05:57
wolfspraulwell yeah, let's say 20 then05:57
wolfspraulboomification is missing, except for some very early beginnings in ben-wpan and mmone-jtag-serial05:57
wpwrakyou still need kicad-to-smt, automated production testing, etc.05:57
wpwrakyup. the big boom hole, too05:57
wolfspraulfor Milkymist and Xue there will be no problem on the testing side05:57
wolfspraulsince those things are developed out in the open from day 105:57
wpwrakalso a schematics "style guide"05:58
wolfspraulfor Ben, we still need to retrofit some GPL testing codes, but the infrastructure gets better so this gets closer and closer05:58
wolfspraulsure that 'style guide' is included in my boomification05:58
wpwrak(testing) do you have automated tests ? and the corresponding interface hardware ?05:59
wolfspraulthen the whole mechanical thing, of course roh's laser-cutting with QCad and DXF is a great first step, and your scanning on the other side05:59
wolfspraulwe get there :-)05:59
wolfspraulautomated tests - yes, software + documentation05:59
wolfspraulbut it's heavily 'work in progress' so don't ask me for URLs now05:59
wpwrak(mech) yeah, roh is making the first real case :) that's pretty cool05:59
wolfspraulbut 100% is out in the open from day 105:59
wolfspraullekernel has really done a remarkably good job on the testing side so far06:00
wolfspraulno 'test harness' yet (if you mean a hardware fixture), really the volumes are too low and any sort of real manufacturing problems are not yet understood well enough (because the volumes are too low), for that to be economical06:00
wolfspraulbut of course, if volumes ever go up and test fixtures become economical, you bet that will all be in the same KiCad/boom/whatnot process as well, of course06:01
wpwrak(fixture) i'm thinking of cooking something up for ben-wpan. particularly atusb won't be trivial (e.g., needs the firmware upload), and a quick RF check would be nice to have, too06:02
wpwrak(fixture) nothing overly sophisticated, of course. probably a PCB plus a piece of wood.06:02
wolfspraulis it a fixture to help you developing the design, or to help with manufacturing road bumps/tolerances/etc?06:03
wpwrakmainly to get rid of the "solder connector to board, flash, then remove connector" step06:03
wolfspraulfor the latter you need to see differences in components and how they behave during production first, I think06:03
wolfspraulof course that can also be a 'home production line'06:03
wpwrakit would be to flash/test in "production" (also including test after manual soldering, of course)06:04
wolfspraulyou would only want to test something that is worth testing06:04
wolfspraulsure there needs to be some way to bootstrap :-)06:04
wpwrakit would be more along the line of "see if it performs at all"06:04
wpwrake.g., if the signal is off by 10 dB, then something is clearly wrong. or if the supply voltage suffers drops.06:05
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you see Andrey's latest post on correcting image sensor pictures based on the individual lense characteristics?06:05
wpwrakand then there's the flashing06:05
wolfspraulpretty amazing stuff06:05
wpwrakandrey ... ah, elphel :) checking ...06:06
wolfspraulmakes total sense to me given that each individual lense will always have differences06:06
wolfspraul(as he writes there)06:06
wolfspraulso the best is to 'calibrate' the system after sensor + lense are installed06:07
wolfspraulnot sure whether something like this is necessary somewhere in RF land06:07
wolfspraulat OM we always had calibrating this and that, but many things were driven so largely out of incompetence, I rather throw away those experiences and try to find out where exactly this is actually necessary and benefitial...06:08
wpwrak(lens calibration) very nice indeed06:08
wpwrakfor rf, the only thing i can calibrate is the oscillator. and that only on atusb, not atusd (the latter used the ben's clock, so it better be good :)06:09
wolfspraulso (for the lense) basically you are holding your test pattern at a certain distance and in certain light conditions, run your calibration software, and boom, performance can be much better06:10
wpwrak(rf) ben-wpan i mean. other rf stuff can of course have other parameters06:10
wpwrak(lens) yup. hubble reloaded :)06:10
wolfsprauland in Andrey's case all software is 100% gpl as well06:10
wolfspraul(the hardware too, of course, though he struggles with the same kind of proprietary tool problems we are struggling with)06:11
wpwrakso xue will have auto-calibrating lenses as well ? :)06:11
wolfspraulluckily this is not production related06:11
wpwrak(tools) once you've made xue, you can "sell" him kicad :)06:11
wolfspraulI'm happy if the first boards boot :-)06:11
wpwrakbtw, what's happening with the xue review ? on hold until you have time for boomification ?06:12
wolfspraulI guess so, on my side06:12
wolfspraulI tried to contact some people, zero results so far as you can see :-)06:13
wolfspraulthe best feedback was your mail06:13
wolfspraulAndres started with a BOOKSHELF now06:13
wolfspraulit'll be slow, but we get there...06:13
wpwrakall i saw in terms of a reaction was a tentative attempt at making a BOOKSHELF file (i don't think it's expected to work, though)06:13
wpwrak(contact people) it would be good to get the basic cleanup out of the way first06:14
wpwrakonce you have the attention of reviewers, you want to put it to good use. if they have to skip over 80% of the design because of incomplete information, you're wasting the opportunity06:15
wpwrak(waste) first, because they may not have time/interest to do it again, but even if they do, they may not spot things they've already mentally checked off06:15
wpwrakof course, sometimes simple mistakes are an indicator that the designer was tired/distracted, and there's more to find in the vicinity :)06:17
wolfspraulall agreed, it will take some time though, I think06:17
wpwrak(works great for code. when you see, say, harald commit coding style violations, then there's a fair chance that there's a logic bug there, too :)06:18
wpwrak(take time) it seems that the beads/inductors/filters may be a bit tricky. at least that's how i interpret the complete absence of any sort of characteristics.06:23
wpwrak(no charcateristics) some of that can be expected, because they may depend on difficult design parameters, such a total current of a subsystem, but it's a bit unusual that none of the them have anything06:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: improve "qpkg ... list" http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b0c29c406:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: sort package version list such that highest comes first http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c05e6d506:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: regression test for version preference http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b181db506:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: adding handling of conflicts (in progress) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/be3190406:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: detect conflicts with installed packages http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c44510a06:24
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: also consider conflicts introduced by package about to be added http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/b89bcdf06:24
kyak_pretty awesome :)06:40
kyak_running irssi in openwrt in qemu06:40
kyak_maybe we should set up a virtual Ben machine and allow people login and play with it remotely :)06:41
kyak_killall: qemu-system-mipsel: no process killed06:43
wolfspraulwpwrak: you mean the inductors, beads and filters in Xue have no values at all?07:10
wpwrakwell, some do. the inductors in the PSU, for example07:12
wpwrakbut FB1 or FB2 on DBG_PRG.sch don't have any hint07:12
wpwrakat least the .cmp file reveals that they have a 0402 footprint07:13
wpwrakoh, and on the PSU, R44 and R45 have no resistance. haven't spotted that one before ;-)07:14
wpwraklikewise for R77, R78, R35, R36, R34, ..07:15
wpwrakFB3 on sensor_psu.sch is also unspecified07:16
wpwrakand there are more unknown resistors on taht sheet as well07:16
wpwrakthe mysteries continue with L4, L5 on USB.sch07:17
wpwrakand so on07:17
wpwraki.e., you'll have fun ;-)07:17
wpwraki suspect some of the mystery Rs are 0 Ohm or NC. but that's really something the designers should specify. it's a little silly if you have to do all the guesswork. well, it may be interesting as a learning experience :)07:26
wpwraksort of a cloze text ("lueckentext") ;-)07:28
Action: kyak building kernel on Ben running in qemu08:12
virickyak: enjoying, eh? :)08:13
kyakjust more convenient than directly on Ben ;) i wonder if it would really succeed08:13
kyakviric: yeah, so much fun08:13
virickyak: do you use -nogrpahic, or you have framebuffer?08:30
kyakso far i'm using -nographic, but i already enabled frambeffur in malta (only will be able to test at home)08:31
viricI don't know what controller malta has. Maybe its' a vga on its pci bus08:32
virickyak: you know about ctrl-a in -nographic, right? :)08:33
kyakyeah, if the framebuffer works, this would be great08:33
viricit will not be the same resolution as the ben though08:34
virichow many openwrt commands are from busybox? or.. how much of busybox is used in openwrt?08:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: you will like this08:37
wolfspraulI'm just chatting with Andres about the missing values08:37
wolfspraulhe says those values are not critical, and in the past they just used what they had in stock :-)08:37
wolfspraulnot that I suggest we introduce such rules into boom, something like the 'garbage collector' value08:38
wolfspraul'put any excess item with the correct footprint here'08:38
kyakviric: http://pastebin.mandriva.com/2130908:40
viricthose are from busybox?08:41
viricthen 'ifconfig' is not08:41
viric(did you check sbin?)08:41
kyakno :)08:41
kyakopkg files busybox | grep "bin/"08:42
kyakthere may be more or less files08:42
kyakdepending on how you configure busybox08:42
viricI know I know08:43
viricI just wondered how would openwrt do08:44
kyakoh, this is not an output from default openwrt build.. i have enabled busybox "desktop" option08:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, some default may be good, though. there are already some. and of course, anything unspecified gives you the cheapest part, whatever it is :-)08:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: and while a "whatever" bead makes some sense, there's no such thing for resistors. zero, infinity, and things in the middle, are all rather popular values ;-)08:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: (defaults) there's one things i'm not quite sure about. that's "minimum standards". e.g., there are capacitors with incredibly wide tolerance ranges. so if you don't specify the capacitor type, boom may pick one of these (they're cheap, too)08:53
wolfspraulsure we'll get to it08:54
wolfspraulwe only need to be careful to not wear out people over worthless discussions08:54
wolfspraulI noticed it slightly with the /250V rating issue on that one resistor on the jtag-serial board08:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: on the other hand, for many caps, you just want "something reasonable". this tends to translate to X5R, X7R, NP0, and a few others. which one depends in manufacturer (e.g., some have a lot of X7R and not so much X5R anymore, while others only have X5R) and capacitance (for low values, everything becomes NP0)08:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: (caps) alas, boom doesn't have lists of possible values so far08:55
wpwrakwolfspraul: (250V) bah, they've probably just been too lazy to think this through ;-)08:56
wolfspraulit's good to have priorities08:58
wolfspraulso anyway, let's do one by one08:58
wolfspraulI mentioned the ones you listed earlier to Andres08:58
wolfspraulhe understands in an open project you may want to be a bit more clear :-)08:59
wpwrakhehe, good :)08:59
wpwrakit'll also help with sourcing for smt :)09:00
kyakmirko_: hi! i was wondering, if you were going to rebuild all packages for the latest image? the ones here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/packages/openwrt/xburst/latest/ are from 25-Apr-2010...09:54
mirko_kyak: yeah, i think we should trigger a build and fix issues (which will occur for sure :))10:11
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: ping10:33
wpwraksleep 300; pong  # when done with lunch10:34
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: can you check if your account on varaha still ok?10:35
DocScrutinizerseems it lost my authorized_key10:35
DocScrutinizerooh, and wiki.om.org id borked10:37
wpwraknow ...10:40
DocScrutinizerssh werner@varaha.om.orgx10:41
wpwraki can't get in either. but i think that's a problem with the sshd. it seems to reject connections before even attempting authentication10:41
DocScrutinizeror simply varaha-rsync ;-)10:41
wpwraki guess the VM needs a reset10:41
DocScrutinizerlooks like10:41
DocScrutinizer(Can't contact the database server: Can't create UNIX socket (12) (localhost))10:41
DocScrutinizerso whole bhavani is dead?10:42
DocScrutinizersomething weird going on there10:43
wpwrakthe VMs sometimes have their hickups ... such things have happened before10:43
DocScrutinizerbut several VMs at once?10:44
DocScrutinizerwiki is davi, not varaha10:44
DocScrutinizerboth are VM on bhavani10:44
DocScrutinizermail is on bhavani as well :-S10:44
wpwraklet's see about mail ... at least sita is working10:46
DocScrutinizermail is ok though10:46
wpwrakyup. mail is good.10:47
DocScrutinizerdebug1: Connecting to varaha.openmoko.org [] port 22.10:47
DocScrutinizerdebug1: Connection established.10:47
DocScrutinizerdebug1: identity file /home/jr/.ssh/id_dsa type 210:48
DocScrutinizerssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host10:48
wpwrakyou have to ask roh. he'll know what to do10:50
DocScrutinizerpinged him, of course10:50
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: thanks for having a look10:52
wpwrakno problem :)10:57
DocScrutinizer250V for R X-P10:57
DocScrutinizersomebody argued we need lower rating?10:58
wpwrakwell, the cap next to it is specifically rated at 250 V :)10:58
DocScrutinizerchoke-less PSU or what?10:59
DocScrutinizersync input from mains power?10:59
wpwrakusb shield :)11:00
wpwrakR16 vs. C3111:00
DocScrutinizerfair enough11:00
DocScrutinizerwell, kinda subcritical11:04
DocScrutinizerquite nice of designer to bother about gnd loops. But honestly if it exceeds 250V you're in severe trouble somewhere else11:06
wpwraki wonder. intel recommend to simply ground it directly and be done with it. this RC circuit seems to originate from audio designs and similar low-frequency stuff.11:06
wpwrakyeah, GND at 250 V -> ough ! :)11:06
DocScrutinizerthis RC is to keep gnd loop parasitary DC and 50Hz from flowing thru shielding11:08
DocScrutinizerimagine you got 2 devices with metal case, and both are mounted on remote points of a car. You don't want starter current to flow thru your USB cable shielding11:09
wpwrakheh :) so how do you do RF interconnects in such an environment ?11:11
DocScrutinizerthat's more from network engineering rather than audio. Like where to connect gnd of a switch/hup star topoligy11:11
DocScrutinizerwpwrak: balun (RF)11:12
kyakhm.. i hope my Ben didn't take it personally that i've been playing with qemu... cause it won't turn off -\11:12
kyakit's just a simple coincidence11:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: so you float the shield on one side ?11:13
wpwrakkyak: coincidence ... "make it look like an accident" :)11:13
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: hmm, scary11:14
wpwrakDocScrutinizer: you may end up floating it on both sides, if the exact role of the device isn't fixed11:15
DocScrutinizerthat's why you need experts to properly design such stuff11:15
wpwrakand expert users :)11:16
kyakwpwrak: really... it scares me11:16
DocScrutinizerfor a ethernet star topology (central hub) you usually require matching patch cables to connect 'peripherals'. Depending on whether the case has PE or not, you need a patch cable without or with shield contacts on both sides11:17
DocScrutinizerthee's different types of RJ45 jacks for that11:18
wpwrakprobably easier to let whatever happens happen to shield and run the signal on a differential pair;-)11:20
DocScrutinizera design like the one with that RC circuit is good for all usecases11:20
wpwrak(and hope there are no starter currents that find the shield a convenient path :)11:20
DocScrutinizerand yes, if there's lightning nearby, those RC circuits usually emit blue magic smoke, no matter if rated 250 or 1kV11:22
wpwrakhmm, if you mix it with a shield = sgnal gnd design, won't you then risk getting those things on the signal gnd line ?11:22
DocScrutinizeryou shouldn't mix11:22
wpwrak(mix) but you're likely to, considering that signal gnd = shield gnd is what's recommended for USB.11:24
DocScrutinizeron the design like above, you can't eliminate the signal gnd line and abuse shielding for that. Except if you short signal gnd and shielding in both plugs of the cable. This won't fly though, as you have no differential design anymore11:24
DocScrutinizercables that do botch on this detail are the ones that regularly fail with some devices while working ok with others11:27
wpwrakwell, direct ground or bead. they have both.11:28
wpwrakah no, that's for signal ground. so just direct11:29
wpwrak(it's clear in figure 12)11:29
DocScrutinizeryes, as usually you don't see PE on GND of USB devices11:35
DocScrutinizerthe whole purpose is to avoid gnd loops11:36
wpwrakPE = protective earth ?11:36
wpwrakin the case of a pc, it's certainly there, though11:37
DocScrutinizerin a design like fig12, if you had a metal housing with PE, you need to connect the metal housing to gnd plane via some RC circuit like in JTAG design11:37
wpwrakand there's nothing preventing a pc from being connected to another device that's on mains (printer, etc.)11:37
DocScrutinizer...and avoud conductive connection from housing to USB recepatcles11:39
wpwrakthen you need to isolate the connectors from the chassis. sounds weird.11:39
wpwrakyup, exactly11:39
wpwraknobody does that ;-)11:39
DocScrutinizernot many do this11:39
wpwrakquite to the contrary. they usually try to close all the gaps, for EMI11:39
DocScrutinizerI've seen it in a few proper designs11:39
wpwrakso the choice is to either do it properly, and run into problems if you connect to the many improper devices, or to do it improperly, and to occasionally run into problems, too. nice :)11:41
DocScrutinizeryes, basically11:41
DocScrutinizeror have a design that simply doesn't offer attack vectors for any problems. E.G. plastic case, no PE11:42
wpwrakgalvanic separation of all usb signals ;-)11:43
DocScrutinizerhmm, should. Yes11:43
wpwrakor just go wireless - solved ;-)11:43
DocScrutinizerthough USB isn't designed for large topologies11:43
wpwrakyet there we are ...11:44
DocScrutinizerso even if you create a gnd loop by connecting 3 devices to each other with 3 cables, the loop still is of small geometric size11:44
wpwrakso you're saying the RC circuit is good, even considering that it lives in a world that connects signal ground to shield and shield to chassis ?11:45
wpwrak(loop) you could have things like PC to hifi, both fed from mains11:46
wpwrakhifi may be usb host and device11:46
DocScrutinizerworst thing that can happen is it's short circuited and has no effect11:46
wpwrak(rc good) okay, thanks11:46
wpwraknow, how do devices like scopes do it ? where does their probe ground go ?11:47
DocScrutinizera good question11:48
DocScrutinizeryou should check carefully on your particular scope11:49
DocScrutinizerusually probe GND is either floating or connected to case with a RC11:49
DocScrutinizeron some scopes you even can switch11:50
DocScrutinizernota bene probe tips are unipolar, means shielding ends there and is not mandatory to get connected to DUT GND at this very spot11:52
wpwrakhmm, but the grould loop acts on the signal11:53
DocScrutinizerin a general case? or specifically with scopes and USB?11:54
wpwrakeven if you just use the clip vs. the spring, you get degradation. if you close the loop via mains, it ought the be even more fun11:54
wpwrakin general11:54
wpwrakusb gets more complex ;) then it's scope -> usb -> pc -> usb -> device, or the same with mains :)11:55
DocScrutinizerin general you have several unipolar probes (chan1,2, trigger) plus *one* dedicated connection of scope GND to DUT GND11:55
DocScrutinizerscope test GND is not supposed to connect to PE or anything else, so scope becomes part of your DUT GND domain11:56
wpwrakhmm, what i read is that it should be close to the signal ground where the signal originates11:57
DocScrutinizerfor a rule of thumb, and simple one channel/probe cases, that's correct11:57
DocScrutinizerthat's why probes have an option to connect a GND clip to the probe head11:58
wpwrakyup. also produces noticeable cleaner signals11:59
kyakok, restored my ben12:08
viriclucky you :)12:09
kyaki wonder why i had to find the "Unbrick" page in wiki via google12:09
kyakperhaps wiki search is broken12:09
kyakbtw, last thing i remember i was trying to ubiattach my datafs in jlime (booted from SD)12:09
kyaki also attached the uboot partition, but i'd like to believe this is not related, or i might have made mistake somewhere12:10
viric'nix' noticed as if the commit 3244d5e on openwrt-xburst had different contents than it had some time ago12:11
viricDid someone rebase there?12:12
Action: lekernel__ discovers linux-libre and laughs14:18
lekernel__I seriously have trouble understanding people who argue that no driver is better than a driver with a blob14:21
lekernel__what do they want? the manufacturers to put their blobs into flash memory? why increase hardware cost and complexity this way?14:22
wpwraki'm a bit puzzled about it myself. are they just removing drivers ? or are they modifying them ? the latter could make sense14:22
lekernel__it seems they're just removing them14:22
wpwrakthe former seems to be a .config-editing task14:22
lekernel__hey, yes, but don't advertise non-free software :)14:23
lekernel__if someone buys a computer with hardware that requires the tiniest bit of non-free software, it must be hard for them to get it to work14:23
larscthe funny thing is blobs are ok if they are in a rom14:23
lekernel__besides, GCC and GNU/Autocrap also seem pretty obfuscated to me :)14:24
lekernel__larsc: yeah, that's a totally stupid FSF idea14:24
larsci wonder if a computer with a winxp burned into a flash chip would be ok for them ;)14:25
lekernel__yes, it is14:25
lekernel__it would be fun to make one, if you have spare time14:25
lekernel__there are already winxp live cds, which could be a nice base to start from14:25
larscand to run additional (closed) software you have to insert cardriges14:27
viricwhat 'blobs' are there for the nanonote?14:27
wpwraklarsc: only if they cut the Write Enable line :)14:27
viricjust curiosity14:27
viriclarsc: btw, is upstream 2.6.36 totally ready for the nanonote?14:27
larscviric: well it boots14:27
larscbut some parts are missing14:27
viricso the qi-hardware 2.6.35 is still 'better' than upstream 2.6.36?14:28
larscthere is a qi-hw 2.6.3614:28
viricI imagine14:29
viricI don't have it at hand :)14:29
viriccan all there go upstream soon? or it needs rework?14:29
kyakso why don't you just get it? :)14:29
larscviric: i'm working on it14:29
wpwraklarsc: hmm, given that the ben can do TCP/IP, are you sure there's no network-attached whatever that could conceivably load some blob ?14:29
viricthank you very much14:29
virickyak: uaaa laziness.14:29
wpwraklarsc: remember, for the obsessively politically correct, there's no soup without at least a few atoms that can be attributed to a hair :)14:30
viricWhy xiangfu recommends using linux to erase the rootfs partitions? Can that work? (the linux running in that rootfs...)14:31
larscwell, it will work more or less. you should remove power as soon as it is done eraseing the partition14:32
wpwraklarsc: and make sure no "dirty" buffers are pending for writing back while the erase is in progress :)14:33
viricit looks optimistic to me :)14:33
larscit is14:33
wpwrakviric: it looks like something where your choice is between it not working and it working, but not the way you intended it to ;-)14:34
viricI hope he will fix that problem14:35
viricI just built uboot and the kernel to revive the thing14:35
virichm I need aluminum paper14:35
wpwrakviric: CIA spy satellites putting ideas into your brain when you sleep ?14:37
viriccrossing the 'usbboot' on the nanonote back :)14:37
wpwrakah, *that* kind of Al paper :)14:37
virichm. We name it here 'silver paper' or 'aluminum paper'14:38
viric(literally translating)14:38
wpwrakviric: yeah,i understood what you means. in english, they also use "tin foil". my joke was about "tin foil hats"14:39
viricI don't get it14:39
wpwrak"One may wear the hat in the belief that it acts to shield the brain from such influences as electromagnetic fields, or against mind control and/or mind reading; or attempt to limit the transmission of voices directly into the brain."14:40
viricah, it may help those unluckily having demodulators in their brains14:41
viricWhen I have to flash with "-n" (nprog) and when not?14:43
viricdoes anybody have some kind of datasheet for the LCD? I'd like to see its peculiarity14:46
viriclarsc: there is no way to scroll-up the 2.6.35 qi-hardware kernel, if it panics before mounting the rootfs, right?14:47
viricI remember something like you planned all the keymap to be set in userland14:47
wpwrakbtw, this looks potentially interesting: he manages to cram a bit more than 80 characters in a single line of text (nominally 320 pixels, but the image is only 302x220): http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/11/designing_the_smallest_legible_scre.html14:49
wpwrak(so the original is probably a bit more readable. the guy uses some weird java junk, though, so i can't display it)14:50
viricit displays fine here14:52
viricI can make a png for you14:52
wpwrakoh, that would be great, thanks !14:52
viricI wonder if my screen has rgb like he thinks14:56
viricItake the microscope14:57
wpwraknice, thanks ! pretty readable indeed. just the "a" looks a bit too much like an "o"14:57
virichell. mine is BGR BGR BGR14:58
viricthe opposite of what he thinks14:58
viricmy other screen is also BGR BGR BGR14:59
wpwraki belgium, they have a new driving exam: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/08/font_designed_with_a_car.html15:03
viricstupid me15:04
viricthe microscope inverts the picture. I have RGB.15:04
wpwraklekernel__: and here's something you may like: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2009/10/interactive_fonts_for_when_bold_isn.html15:05
kyakviric: heh.. managed to start the malta in qemu with fb support (i.e. i see gmenu2x interface). I just blindly enabled several FB devices15:07
kyakbuttons don't seem to work though15:07
kyakperhaps need to enable some input devices15:08
kyakwe should distribute a qemu image for users15:20
kyakto evaluate Ben :)15:20
viricyou could make that openwrt build for i686 or x86_6415:22
viricit would run much faster :)15:22
kyak..and then i'll end up installing it to my desktop - no, thanks :)15:23
viricfor qemu I mean15:23
viriclarsc: how could I read the kernel log, if it fails to mount rootfs?15:24
viricafter kernel panic, it totally blocks?15:25
viricCouldn't I scroll up if I overwrote the keymap in the kernel?15:25
viricand how can I make the kernel put the traces to the serial?15:26
viric(I have a ftdi 3v3 cable around)15:26
larscit does it by default15:26
kyakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/QEMU.png -)15:28
viricI'll try15:28
virickyak: nice. I'm still using terminal menus15:29
viricthe terminal menus remembers me the DOS times; many had a menu shown on autoexec.bat15:29
viriclarsc: 9600bps?15:30
viricmaybe it's me, but I don't see anything at 57600...15:36
viricah it works.15:37
viric[    7.590000] UBIFS error (pid 1): validate_sb: LEB size mismatch: 524288 in superblock, 516096 real15:38
viric(thank you, open hardware!)15:38
lekernel__what does it have to do with open hardware?15:40
viricin open hardware I can come to irc, ask "how to debug bla bla", and I get answers :)15:41
lekernel__all NAND flashes suffer from this kind of problem...15:41
lekernel__ah :)15:41
lekernel__ok, sorry15:41
kyaklekernel was about to get agressive :)15:41
Action: kyak night15:41
virichmm what did the xburst qi-hardware kernel call as init? /sbin/preinit?16:37
viricah found. it's the last patch... /etc/preinit16:40
viriclarsc: is /dev/console the serial line, or the screen?17:01
virichm... the serial line says:  /bin/sh can't access tty; job control turned off17:05
viricwhile nothing appears on the screen17:05
bartbesviric: isn't /dev/console current tty?17:06
viric/dev/tty is the current tty17:06
viric/dev/console is where the kernel is said to throw messages (the console=...)17:08
virichumm I see very tricky things in the openwrt patches for the kernel17:16
wpwrakviric: (minicom) nice ... so is that four or only three times obsolete ? 1) move from almighty root to more fine-grained permissions. 2) Linux capabilities that give non-root users special powers. 3) SELinux that restricts what root can do. 4) VMs where you often don't really care anyway. I guess someone, somewhere is still struggling with the future shock that came with the invention of the cave ... :)18:48
kristianpaulevil is here http://www.youtube.com/google#p/a/u/1/bq-hXD33vXs20:33
kristianpaulNow i realize why we need  a evoluted OSM20:33
kristianpaulOSm + Wikipedia + ...20:34
kristianpaulyeah camera is important and geolocation20:35
jadhey all20:38
kristianpaulhello jad20:38
jadi want to buy a external hard drive and i want to know wich one u advice me to buy ?20:38
jadwich brand is the best ?20:38
jadanybody can help me to choose plz ?!20:39
jadi found many articles on google but not all are the same20:39
jadsome say maxtor is the best some say wd20:39
kristianpaultry on #electronics20:40
jadi joined and it says  cannot send to channel20:41
jadi dont know why20:41
kristianpaulbad boy ! :)20:41
Action: kristianpaul afk20:41
wpwrakhmm. i wonder if something like  Provides: erlang-erts=5.7 ...  is really valid. (found it in the OpenWRT Packages). neither Jlime nor Ubuntu use = in "Provides"20:59
wpwraknot that it would make sense in some way ...20:59
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: test for the QPKG_ADDING leakage bug http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/8d453d721:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: move "struct pkg" and its allocation from gobble.c and qpkg.h to pkg.[hc] http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/bbf9c4221:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: added parsing and recording of Provides data http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/9d208dd21:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg/TODO: some open policy questions (cyclic dependencies and use of Provides) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/c95d06421:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: light cleanup of prereq.c:resolve and change forgotten in last commit http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/068264e21:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg/test/bug-adding: found another manifestation of the same problem http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/ab5df0a21:00
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: qpkg: added some field names and relational operators from Ubuntu http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/6a3e47121:00
kristianpaulgood 20ns is the min i needed21:31
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: gmenu2x update, use the open.png as the default wallpaper http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/728bd4d21:36
kristianpaulnah not sdl for now i just need show 1 and 0, ascii can do that. lest wait what is workign on wpwrak with sdl glx :D21:36
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: triggersad: update the download URL. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d0c6f1421:37
kristianpaulah yes gnuplot will help here21:37
wolfspraulxiangfu: I'm looking at http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image21:45
wolfspraulthen under 'Downloading sources'21:46
wolfspraulI think the scripts/feeds update -a && scripts/feeds install -a should be before the yes ""|make oldconfig in the earlier paragraph21:46
wolfspraulmaybe I restructure this a bit21:47
wolfspraulplus the instructions under 'Downloading sources' are not just about downloading, they do everything including building the entire image21:47
kristianpauli put  the make old, i felt was missing, sorry i dint look on the order21:47
wolfspraulor we remove some of those commands since they are listed in the sections below again21:48
wolfspraulI'll just try to edit a bit, see whether it gets better...21:48
kristianpaulplease :)21:48
wolfspraulwhat's the difference between aptitude and apt-get?21:49
wolfspraulI never use aptitude...21:49
kristianpaulaptitude is smart !21:49
kristianpaulscaring smarting i could say ;-)21:49
wolfspraulwhat's the advantage over apt-get?21:51
kristianpaul"yes sr i will isntall foo package and in the mean time i think package a,b,c d and are not needed any more, so dont care i will make this srity work for you"21:51
wolfspraulhey it's a wiki, I'm editing so I will change to what I think is the 'better' command, apt-get :-)21:51
kristianpaulis a ncruses or whatever dpkg fronted21:51
kristianpauleye candy on console is handy some times21:52
xiangfuwhen using 'aptitude' remove package. it will also remove depends . apt-get don't21:53
wolfspraulso I think apt-get is safer21:54
wolfspraulif someone wants to build OpenWrt images on his system, why do we have to direct him to a command that will also 'cleanup' unnecessary packages on his system?21:55
wolfspraullooks like asking for trouble to me21:55
wolfspraulI moved some of the commands to the later sections21:55
wolfspraulI think there is a bit too much text between the commands, need to cut that shorter still.21:55
Action: xiangfu fixed some typo in "make package/***"22:03
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