#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-11-16

kyakwhat is jlime using as a GUI text editor?03:19
qi-bot[commit] kyak: asign a working dir for ash-rus http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7265f7c03:48
wpwraklive from the annual championship of efficient screen space usage. the winner is ... the yacas tutorial ! go to http://yacas.sourceforge.net/homepage.html then click on the "Tutorial" tab. (they've hidden the real URL somewhere in a style sheet or such. pretty good camouflage, too.)05:47
lekernelhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/ID_USB <= what's this?05:58
lekerneland http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Afinador_Digital_de_Instrumento05:59
wpwraka strange little project ? :)05:59
wpwrakstudent projects in columbia06:00
wolfspraullekernel: we all don't know what this is :-)06:03
wolfspraulmy qualification wouldn't be very, let's say, 'motivational', so I leave it up to the academic pros to do that :-)06:04
wpwraksome day we'll have a fine mess with all those probably short-lived projects in the qi-hw wiki. well, it just goes to confirm my theory that wiki as a distributed documentation tool is inherently flawed ;-)06:04
wolfspraulwpwrak: no no, don't worry.06:04
wolfspraulCarlos and I already have a perfect strategy for that.06:04
wolfspraulmediawiki has nice mass and batch deletion extensions...06:04
wolfsprauland they are already installed06:05
wolfspraulbut let's give the students a fair chance06:05
wpwrakwouldn't it be better to set up a wiki at the university ? label the projects properly with their time slot, etc.06:05
wolfspraulI gladly donate some server storage and bandwidth for their projects :-)06:05
wpwrakthat way, they can even stay after they're finished. that should be nicer for the students.06:05
wolfspraulwell, now we get into the 'qualification' stage. Do they care? my view is this: they hobble up some fantastic plans, great on promises lousy on implementation. they need to somehow serve this past some superficial reviews to get their degrees, and the day they get their degree they care about these projects even less than I do :-)06:07
wpwrakthe non-hierarchical nature of the wiki doesn't make mixing things very convenient. well, not without something like google to figure out what's actually relevant.06:07
wolfspraulCarlos will try to squeeze some long-term benefits out of it, but Carlos and I are pretty close in our judgment.06:07
wpwraksure, the projects may die right after they're done. but you can still keep them where it doesn't cause trouble.06:08
wolfspraulof course if they are not in anybody's way06:08
wolfspraulmediawiki has strong category features06:08
wpwrakit's also nicer for students if they know their work isn't destined for destruction no matter what06:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: like I said. I'm willing to increase my respect for these works at least :-) to the level that the authors respect their own works...06:09
wolfspraulso no worries. nothing will be deleted just for fun. they are student projects. I hope they are in nobody's way.06:09
wolfspraulI think 99% of it is junk.06:09
wolfspraulbut I guess in academia you need an unstoppable believe in 'talents' (ahem)06:10
wpwrakit's less about respecting the work or the authors but about putting things where they logically belong :)06:10
wolfspraulso I provide server resources, Carlos does the magic.06:10
wolfspraulwell some of it may belong into the trash bin06:10
wolfspraulbut not now, after they got their degrees06:10
wolfspraulwe'll see06:11
wolfspraulwho knows maybe something good comes out of it06:11
wolfspraulwe should be optimistic, shouldn't we?06:11
kristianpaulwolfspraul: it is06:11
kristianpaul(99% talking)06:11
lekernel"some of it may belong into the trash bin, but not now, after they got their degrees"06:12
lekernelnice quote :)06:12
Action: lekernel lols06:12
wolfspraulyeah well06:12
wolfspraulthey themselves wouldn't even disagree :-)06:12
wolfspraulhe he06:12
wpwrakstudents tend to know the limited lifespan of their efforts :)06:13
wpwraksome things have a real use, though. e.g., one of my students did some bug hunting in one of the little protocols in the ATM stack. found something in my implementation and also some things in the "competing" commercial implementation. that was useful.06:14
wpwrakthen some others did things that didn't have a direct practical use but helped me to get a better understanding of the issue.06:16
wpwrakthen of course, there was that one guy in finland who implemented a whole link-layer emulation stack. (LAN Emulation) wasn't my student but certainly did a heck of a work for his MSc thesis. that stuff is probably still round today.06:17
wpwrakso i wouldn't simply dismiss these projects but i'd also keep them separate from "official documentation".06:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: the glitch problem definitely is a DNS issue. seems that there's a cache somethere that forwards the query but immediately responds "not found". once the real response arrives, it's fine.06:34
wolfspraulwpwrak: hmm06:35
wolfspraulmaybe outside of reach for any improvement then06:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: here's a doddle i made recently. (not everything there is correct, e.g., the SIE dates are purely my invention) http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/timeline.pdf06:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: dunno. since it seems to affect others too, it's probably close to the source.06:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: he that is fun and crazy :-)07:01
wolfspraulshould we put it on the qi homepage for a while?07:01
wpwrakhmm, maybe with better data ?07:02
wpwrakalso, the compressed x scale makes things look a bit weird07:02
wolfspraullet's see, maybe an mtk project will join at some point07:02
wpwrakyeah, haven't quite figured out how to merge the telephony side07:02
wpwrakof course, the overall goal is to provide you with material to show to prospective investors/sponsors ;-)07:03
wpwrak"look, we even have a roadmap !" ;-)07:03
wpwrakit's in fact rjeffries' question about xue that made me think of this. because it's indeed sometimes hard to see how the various little projects interconnect.07:06
wpwrak(even if you know what each of them is doing ;-)07:06
wpwrakphew. after five layers of python, one finally gets to the C code of gnuradio. at least there's fftw at the bottom of this well, something known07:22
lekernelwpwrak: do you think python is slow?07:28
lekernel(i'm polling everyone's opinion about that :))07:28
wpwraklekernel: slower than C for sure. whether that it "too slow" or "fast enough" depends ...07:29
wolfspraulwpwrak: I was thinking about a 'hardware block diagram', like those software block diagrams07:30
wolfspraulonly that at the top, it starts/ends with the kernel, say Linux/RTEMS/Iris, then below that are blocks for IC design, KiCad/boom, RF stuff, mechanical process and tools, etc.07:30
wpwraklekernel: i used it for some fair amount of data processing in my TMC package and i'd rather do all this in C. it's expect a speedup of about 10x, considering that most of the operations are quite simple. (such as walking a large array, doing floating-point comparisons on the values, and generating another array with the result)07:31
wolfspraulbut your left-to-right diagram is also nice07:31
wpwrakah, a stack. a stack implies order. do we have that ? ;)07:32
lekernelwpwrak: fyi milkymist spells with just one capital M at the beginning, and started in aug 2007 (without qi-hardware at that time)07:33
mthlekernel: python is slow, but often that doesn't matter if you do the complex control part in python and the heavy lifting in C modules07:36
wpwraklekernel: ah, thanks ! i was indeed wondering about its origin date :)07:36
mthfor processing numbers it really helps to use numpy07:37
lekernelfailing to be popular since 2007, yay!07:37
lekernelbig R&D is frustrating, really07:37
wpwraklekernel: ;-)))07:37
wpwraklekernel: well, that's about to change, isn't it ? how are things going with the CCC preparation ?07:38
lekernelheh, I hope so07:39
lekernelCCC preparation is a small task :)07:40
lekernelit's rather about getting the boards produced and flashed with good stuff07:40
lekernelbtw we got a prototype case lately (thanks roh)07:40
wpwraklekernel: (boards) yeah, that's what i meant ;-)07:41
wpwrak(case) wow ! that was really quick !07:41
lekernelone afternoon basically :)07:41
lekernelthere are still a few rough edges but that's really good work for a start07:41
wpwrak(big r&d) i actually wondered about the timeline. normally, an MSc thesis doesn't take nearly that long. how did you manage that ?07:42
lekernelwell, I just started before, and since this had never been published in academia and looked better than a crappy thesis, I managed to get it accepted07:43
wpwraknice case. laser cutters rock.07:43
lekernelplus there are some improvements and studies that I did for the thesis itself07:43
wpwrakaah ! good move. yup, certainly beats the usual thesis stuff by a pretty wide margin.07:44
wpwrak(case) how did they do the groove in the top/bottom plates ?07:45
lekernelmh, that was the messier part07:45
lekernelmake two shallow cuts with the laser, then scrape the wood away with a screwdriver07:46
lekernelthat was slow and messy07:46
wpwrakgood ;-) i was already worried that laser cutters were getting way too powerful :)07:46
lekernellater we'll use a cnc07:46
wpwraki was just about to mention that :)07:46
wpwrakwith the mill it'll be easy. and they have a nice big one.07:47
wpwrakmy mill only does pieces of 15 x 10 cm. so i'm no fan of "make the ben bigger" proposals :)07:48
wpwrakthe sidewalls fit very nicely. you don't even seem to need a filler for the corners.07:49
wpwrakroh: congratulations to you, too ! very nice job !07:50
wolfspraulwpwrak: will you post your PDF in response to Ron's mail?08:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: not in its present state. maybe i'll make a program that generates such a diagram from raw data. that way, i'll be easier to rearrange things. i also need to verify a number of dates, etc.08:09
wpwrakwolfspraul: in any case, the answer for ron is probably more along the lines of a link to the projects list :)08:11
wolfspraulah sure, I don't think you should get bogged down over such bureaucracy anyway08:11
wolfspraulRon likes to lean back and ask wise guy questions...08:11
wolfspraulI appreciate the mental challenge to stay calm and friendly. That is indeed helpful. :-)08:12
wpwrakkristianpaul: some nice pictures: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/discuss-gnuradio/2010-11/msg00308.html08:12
wolfspraulreminds me of what I learn in China every day, so also goes along well with that...08:12
wolfspraulhe's asking the right questions though, of course our stuff is not easy to understand etc.08:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: (bureaucracy) yeah, it's low priority :) first the antennas. then i might hack a faster version of rafa's jlime-pkg. then we'll see :)08:13
wpwrakyup, he asks good questions. i wish he'd also take on a redactorial/editorial role. i think that's what you need to make wiki-based documentation work. someone who keeps the big picture, steers thing in the right direction, and makes sure things connect.08:15
wolfspraulif you can activate him in that direction, we will hand you the 'ron award', the highest possible award in community contribution activation...08:18
wpwrakfrom the description, i take it that it is usually awarded posthumously ? :)08:18
wpwrakOrnotermes: kristianpaul found some SDR receiver for satellite and such08:27
wpwrakOrnotermes: relatively inexpensive, estimated ~usd 150 i think. form factor: usb dongle.08:27
Ornotermesis there a link?08:29
wpwrakGRRR. if i let gnuplot do the math, it get signals of about -30 dB. if i do it in my C program, i get ~-5 dB. (the latter is actually roughly what i expect to get)08:30
Action: wpwrak hates non-deterministic math08:30
wpwrakah, where's kristianpaul when we need him ...08:31
wpwrak08:30 in bogota. he should be up by now.08:32
wpwrak(math) ah, my fault. forgot to scale it ...08:33
rafawpwrak: maybe he just arrived from a night life08:36
wolfspraulhe has a day job, maybe commuting to that right now?08:37
wpwrakhmm. results are still very different from what gnuradio's fft gives me. but at least they're no longer freakishly sensitive to parameter variations. that's something :)08:38
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add fsck http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9b6624808:38
rafawolfspraul: yes, surely. He often has the chance to be here still if he is working.. but sometimes there are really busy days as well08:39
rafawolfspraul: I had a vague idea about dual booting to think between all.. there are a lot of pro and cons.. but well, it was an idea to put together other ideas before to define more technical details. Did you read the log about having just one kernel, just one rootfs partition and /data partition on nand for two or more distributions?08:42
wolfspraulI saw some discussions.08:42
wolfspraulnot sure which one works best etc.08:42
wpwrakah, t-shirt idea v2: front: "Eloi", with the o apple-shaped. below, "Morlock", with the k ben-symbol-shaped. back: "dinner is served".08:43
wolfspraulbut it's good that we start thinking about it08:43
rafawolfspraul: no.. I have not idea either08:43
wolfsprauland if 'many partitions' is totally outdated and old fashioned, well then, bring in the new stuff! chroot and what not, all fine by me. let's just think about the consequences first :-)08:43
wpwrakt-shirt #2 (for wolfgang :): front: "THE FLOW". back: "don't go with it"08:43
rafawolfspraul: yes.. maybe we could put these ideas on some wiki.. so we can read from time to time to improve those08:44
rafawolfspraul: chat forgets a bit08:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: many partitions = many more opportunities for noticing that something doesn't fit and needs resizing :)08:44
wpwrakrafa: (chat forgetting) while wiki preserves the obsolete concepts and explanations forever ;-)08:45
kyakrafa: what's the name of gui text editor in jlime?08:45
rafawpwrak: that is true.. but at least wiki could remembers us a bit those ideas during the process to think those08:46
wolfspraulrafa: if you get up one day, and you meet Werner, and he tells you all these things about how he loves u-boot, how he loves wikis, NAND, partitions, and many other beautiful things, you know something is wrong. Maybe you are in a dream? Maybe a new world? all is possible...08:46
rafakyak: it gtkedit or gtkeditor.. no remember exactly. Let me find the original link.08:46
rafakyak: btw.. all the gtk applications on jlime are gtk1 applications08:46
kyakrafa: okay..08:47
rafakyak: because those were 3 or 4 times faster than gtk2.. of course.. gtk2 is modern and full of features08:47
rafakyak: which we do not use on a 320x240 screen08:47
kyakoh ok!08:47
kyaki'm lookng for a simalicitic QT editor08:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: when this happens, i'd be very careful to avoid any physical contact with that "werner", for he'll certainly consist of antimatter :)08:48
kyakfor some reason i believe qt is faster than gtk.. and more modern too08:48
kyakbut i'm not sure08:48
wpwrakkyak: easy: ln -s `which vi` /usr/local/bin/myqtedit; xterm -e myqtedit08:49
kyakwpwrak: thanks!08:49
kyakso it's qt08:50
rafakyak: http://gtkedit1.sourceforge.net/08:50
kyakno links in google08:50
kyakfor myqtedit08:50
kyakoh damn08:51
kyakwpwrak: you tricked me :)08:51
kyakrafa: nice, thanks!08:51
kyakwpwrak: let me know when you have xterm running in openwrt :)08:52
rafawolfspraul: yeah.. no sure if I know him or he is part of this Alice in Wonderland  :D08:52
rafakyak: we had a long list of nice gtk1 applications a couple of years ago.. Unfortunately.. with the lot of changes on web server and stuff... I have not found that :(08:53
rafakyak: but those were fast as the hell08:53
rafakyak: I remember.. at my old jornada 660x (166mhz, 16mb of ram).. running them and immediately those appeared on screen08:53
rafasorry, 66mhz08:53
kyakrafa: that's great.. unfortunately, those are usually unmaintaned08:54
kyakonly few people need such apps08:54
rafakyak: well.. they did just a simple and very know and used task.. like editor, calculator, browser08:54
rafakyak: so you do not need maintainers08:54
rafakyak: also.. they were so small to do easy modifications if you want08:55
rafakyak: like I did with the dictionary (which is gtk1 as well)08:55
kyakwell yes, you are right08:55
wpwrak(kyak) heh, i thought the "thanks" was ironic :)08:55
wpwrakgrr. s/(kyak)/kyak: (tricked)/08:55
Action: wpwrak should not multitask08:56
kyakwpwrak: it could have been ironic if i wasn't multitask :)08:56
kristianpaulwpwrak: hello09:12
kristianpaulsorry i travel to work every day09:13
kristianpaulbtw i live in Buga, not bogota but yes is same timezone :)09:13
kristianpaulOrnotermes: hey09:13
lekerneldoes Ron do anything except not using Google and asking questions that slow down everyone else?09:13
kristianpaulhangon reading baclog just now09:13
wpwrakkristianpaul: b<vowel>g*a - matches :)09:16
wpwrakkristianpaul: and i was indeed thinking of the same time zone :)09:16
wpwraklekernel: do we really want to know ? ;-)09:17
jekhorHi. Can someone point me to actual version of NanoNote schematic & PCB? I found at least three versions of different boards on wiki, but without comments about actuality.09:23
wpwrakjekhor:  i use always these schematics: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/9/9c/Lb60_schematic.pdf http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Ben-lcd-drive-sch.pdf09:25
wpwraknot sure about the layout - haven't looked at it yet09:25
Ornotermeskristianpaul: hi09:29
kristianpaulOrnotermes: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/GPS_Open_Stack09:58
kristianpaulOrnotermes: all info i had found is ther moetly links to read and lots of books, but very helfull09:58
kristianpaulyes is posible09:58
kristianpaulhow posible on nanonote we will see09:59
kristianpaulmay be fpga acelaration will help09:59
kristianpauleven with a usrp is sexy and posible :D09:59
kristianpaulwpwrak: nice timeline !09:59
kristianpaullekernel: python not good for thread handling, is my pain every time client askme why apps so slow :(10:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: you founded ben layout in pdf???10:00
Action: kristianpaul remenber to take the pics10:01
kristianpaulOrnotermes: are related with GNSS world?10:03
kristianpaulare you*10:03
kristianpaulhmm usrp code seems usefull, i may take a look10:04
kristianpaulor emulate gn3s protocol then create some dumps and feed gps-sdr sofware10:04
Ornotermeskristianpaul: no, not at all10:07
kristianpaulwpwrak: (FFTsend peak) looks interesting, what is doing the fft, sorry i'm not aware of gnuradio apps10:09
Ornotermesi just like the idea of having a portable reciever that can be programmed to decode various digital data10:09
kristianpaulbut incredible they do cool things may be the basic i need10:09
kristianpaulOrnotermes: what you mean with digital data?10:10
kristianpaulahh an USRP portable??10:10
Ornotermesyes something like that :)10:10
kristianpauli think ettus have one10:14
kristianpaulbut not public yet, i read some comments before, it uses som gumstick with arm LOCKWARE10:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: i meant i know what fft dowes, but what sofware is behinf it, FFTW ? yacas :O10:17
Ornotermeskristianpaul: sadly i can't spare the money even to buy any USRP on the market now :/10:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: (ben layout) nope. but i didn't search for it either :)10:35
wpwrakkristianpaul: (fft) gnuradio uses fftw10:36
kristianpaulwpwrak: when you mean gnuradio is GRC part of it?10:43
wpwrakkristianpaul: yes. gnuradio-3.3.0/grc/ ;-)10:44
kristianpaulah :)10:44
kristianpaulindeed nice pictures :)10:47
wpwraklekernel: you should like this talk at 27c3: "A new circuit board printer will liberate you from the Arduino-Industrial Complex" :) http://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/events/4099.en.html11:06
lekernelyeah, saw it before11:08
lekernelmade me laugh :)11:08
qi-bot[commit] kyak: /etc/banner: fixed noeol; /etc/VERSION was missing http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/646fb8212:08
wpwraklekernel: btw, i don't see your presentation on the schedule ? or will it be "the concert" ? ;-)13:07
lekernelwpwrak: it's a workshop... they didn't put them on the schedule :(13:25
lekernelactually the workshop organization is a lot messier than I thought13:26
wpwraklekernel: ah, what are the messy bits ?13:27
lekernelwell, first they let you put an entry in the pentabarf, then you get no answer from them, and finally you discover that the workshops are on a "first come first serve edit the wiki schedule yourself" mode13:30
lekerneland, as you noticed, they aren't on the schedule13:30
qi-bot[commit] kyak: added keymap for Qt apps http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/abf3fa413:31
lekernelah, they changed it again!13:31
wpwraklekernel: hmm, that doesn't sound very nice. particularly not for firsttimers. did you still get a good slot ?13:31
lekernelseems I didn't get any slot so far...13:32
wpwrakthe wednesday slot would be good13:34
wpwrakif people don't have to prepare anything for it, then tue, too13:34
lekernelcombined with the pre-sale ticket mess, that pretty much sucks13:34
wpwrakwell, there is "chaos" in the name :)13:36
lekernelyeah, grr13:37
lekernelnext year => lecture :)13:37
lekernelI'm also losing a lot of visibility by not being on the schedule13:37
wpwrakgrmbl. now .. my antenna sensitivity tests ... i do 100 test runs. each time exactly the same setup. what i'd expect are 100 results, bounding around roughly randomly within a certain range. what i get instead looks more like a -log curve with a bit of noise on top :-(13:38
wpwraklekernel: yeah :-( well, maybe they'll put the workshops in a similarly visible place later.13:38
wpwrakworkshops tend to be more for the in-crowd while lectures tend to draw more people who are just curious, though. so the workshop will be more of a challenge.13:40
wpwrakhmm. and then there are those freak runs where the power suddenly jumps by 8 dB. i wonder what got into the system with these ...13:44
wpwrakit looks a bit too consistent to be just an RF side problem. maybe there's a problem with the communication. well, i can debug this separately.13:45
wpwrakinteresting. now i did the test with the 802.15.4 transmitter constantly running. (before i was turning it on and off between tests.) and i still get those surprise peaks. this suggests the usrp is to blame for them. grrr ...13:58
kyakkewl.. typing russian in Qt!14:02
kyak(have to hold the "Qi" button for now, Qt for some reason doesn't know how to proceed *_Lock from keymap)14:02
kyakgod i'm so glad this is even feasible14:07
kyakQt seems to be able to Lock only Caps, Num and Scroll15:12
kyakto be able to Lock CtrlR, for example, would require to modify Qt LinuxInput driver15:13
viricand what is ctrlr?15:14
kyakit's one of the keyboard modifiers, usually right control... could be anything..15:15
kyakfor  Ben i've assigned it to "Qi" key15:16
kyakso it is possible to switch to alternative keymap15:16
viricin xorg?15:17
viricor the fb?15:17
kyakit works in console; and Qt has a kmap2qmap to convert it to Qt keymap (to use in linuxfb)15:17
kyakif there was X11 in openwrt, wouldn't be a problem at all15:18
viricthere isn't even the tiny server?15:18
kyakthere is something.. but i'm not sure15:20
mirkokyak: ping16:32
mirkowolfgang told me anybody wrote a hello-world qt4 GUI program and it hangs/crashes as well when it is supposed to quit - however i forgot _who_ did so16:36
kristianpaulmirko: had you tried with nanomap?16:37
kristianpaulwhat happended?16:38
mirkohowever it's far too complex for debugging qt4-issues on the device itself16:38
mirkothe issue is the same though...16:39
mirkohangs and segfaults while syscalling rt_sissuspend16:39
kyakmirko: yuo16:44
kyakmirko: i did so.. however, when you changed it to use linuxfb, it quits fine now16:45
kristianpaulnow = last openwrt commit?16:46
kyaklast one, too, but since this commit to be exact16:47
kyakexport QWS_DISPLAY=linuxfb does the trick16:48
kyakmirko: do you know why it was decided to go without X11? i understand it adds an overhead, but is it that noticable?17:04
kyakas i can see, openwrt supports X11 pretty well17:05
mirkokyak: it's overhead for features which aren't used on the NN17:17
calamarzsb has handy a url for the mxu_as awk script?17:17
lekernelkyak: name one advantage of X11 on embedded devices17:17
mirkokyak: well - the hello-world app quits fine now with linuxfb?17:17
mirkoNanoMap still does not17:17
mirkokyak: show me the hellow-world app code please17:17
Action: kristianpaul quak17:18
kristianpaullekernel: remote X graphical terminal ()17:18
wpwrakrafa: i think jlime can start preparing the welcoming ceremony for kyak ;-)17:18
lekernelover what? SLIP/PPP? hahahahaha17:19
kristianpaulwell sure not on those17:19
kristianpaulbut on ethernet, well :)17:19
lekernelsure, you could use VNC or better RDP on those17:20
wpwrakkristianpaul: not so fast. they run PPP over high-speed links ;-)17:20
lekerneleven the much-touted network supposed-transparency doesn't work with X17:20
mirkodon't get it.. had the discussion sooo many times..17:20
lekernelit's just slow as hell17:20
mirkox11 is dead17:20
kristianpaulwpwrak: ah true :)17:20
bartbeswayland is the way(land)17:21
mirkoxcb is promising as well17:21
wpwrakmirko: it died for the first time some 20+ years ago -and lived on as a zombie happily ever after ;-)17:21
kristianpaulrise hand who is not using X right now :)17:21
bartbeseveryone on windows? :P17:22
mirkokristianpaul: X != x11 != graphical user interface17:22
lekernelI seriously wish I weren't - if only someone cared to kick that crap out instead of developing a patchwork of incompatible toolkits all depending on X17:22
lekernelunfortunately I'm stuck with an awful (and bloated) mess of Qt, GTK and even Motif apps17:22
bartbesQt and GTK have ports to wayland, right?17:23
kristianpaulmirko: agreed17:23
kristianpaulmirko: as jlime uses xfdev relly well :)17:23
bartbesI believe the Qt port was quite advanced17:23
lekernelload three different widgets toolkit. absolutely brilliant!17:23
wpwrakmirko: let's see how Wayward looks once it has caught up on the basic feature set :) e.g., decent network support, runs well on common hardware - old and new, compatibility with the major widget sets, multi-head support, ...17:23
bartbesmake it all run on cairo17:23
mirkolekernel: DirectFB support(ed) all of them...17:23
bartbesand profit?17:23
lekerneland add some extra layers on top of that (gtkmm, wxwidgets, ...) for extra-bloatedness17:24
bartbesand I want a ppa17:24
wpwraklekernel: Motif ! pfui ! ;-)17:24
bartbesbecause my ubuntu install can be torn to pieces17:24
bartbes(preferably not, but it is already broken)17:24
wpwraklekernel: and how is all that the fault of X ? you'll get the same quickly enough on any popular infrastructure17:25
lekernelnot that much on Mac, except for ports of X applications17:26
lekernelwhich most Mac users hate btw17:27
mirko(which btw is not only because cocoa/aqua is so much better, but as well since x11 on macosx is so much PIA :))17:28
lekernelimo it's time to drop network pseudo-transparency and legacy crap like ICCCM and do like apple does - since apparently no one does it better17:28
wpwraklekernel: well, mac is a bit of a special environment anyway. nice and tidy, but still much of a prison camp.17:28
wpwrakwhat surprises me a bit is that people who want to replace X tend to want to replace X as their first step, before actually getting the alternative to work. e.g., the current wayward hype is all about rendering in the client and pushing bitmaps. you don't need to get rid of X to do this.17:32
lekernelwhy don't they put the widget set in the server? at least, this will force anyone to use the same widgets and get rid of the qt/gtk/motif/whatever mess17:32
wpwrakperhaps because people like to have a choice of widgets ?17:33
lekernelnice choice, that. it led to the complete fuckup the Linux GUI is17:34
wpwrakdunno. there is convergence on style. most of the basics look quite similar nowadays. similar enough that it's no big effort to use the common things in new applications. it used to be much worse in the old days.17:36
lekerneleven ms-windows does that with some success17:36
wpwrakof course, many applications still need learning, but that's for stuff that's specific to them17:36
lekernelthere are plenty of end user applications for all sorts of purposes, nearly all using the same widget set17:36
lekernelit's only on *nix that you have this mess around the GUI17:37
wpwrakyou can probably just stay in one of those worlds and be happy. i'm sure gnome and kde each have the same set of basic utilities.17:38
lekerneland i'm sorry to say, but the x11-based GUIs are slower than the windows xp GUI17:38
lekernel(despite what the "recycle your old PC with Linux" people say)17:39
wpwraki use my desktop to do work, not to run benchmarks, so i don't really know how slow it is ;-)17:39
wpwrak(and yes, i can watch movies in good quality on it too :)17:41
kristianpaulawesome !17:42
Action: kristianpaul hides17:42
rafalekernel: one advantage of xfbdev on little devices is that it works out of the box. We have around 10 different WM to use and control applications running at the same time.. Then there are many applications written during 15 years to test and use. Check this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKAa_JbEokk .. WE did this env without to write a just one line of source code.17:42
rafalekernel: there a lot of problems and cons.. i know.. but in comparison.. i see that qi-openwrt uses gmenu2x.. a crapy thing17:42
rafawhich has improved a lot writting/modifying it17:43
rafaif they want to change gmenu2x there is not choice17:43
rafaand they spending months and months improving that17:43
rafawell. with xfbdev there we have around 10+, 20 perhaps differents goods GUI menus to use as launcher or similar..17:43
rafalekernel: but again.. I know that there are a lot of cons with X.. but we used it because we do not need to write any line of source code... it just works..17:44
lekernelthat's what I said: everyone focuses on the X11 crap17:44
rafaand we have a lot of applications there to use and we like it17:44
lekernelso in the end you have plenty of apps17:45
lekernelmajor bugs are fixed17:45
lekernelbut that doesn't make X good per se17:45
lekernelit just makes it a necessary evil17:45
rafalekernel: yes.. of course. I understand you..17:46
rafalekernel: and we use it at jlime because we are not a lot of people and we are not good developing new stuff.. we are godd  using and setting the current stuff17:46
kristianpaulokay i hope i can play videos on milkymist that will be awesome :D17:48
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/fft: one more analysis tool for antenna measurements http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/489acc419:19
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/range: obtain avg/min/max from a series of values and eliminate outliers http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c4d906b19:19
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: usrp/README: description of the preparation for antenna measurements. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cc5090b19:19
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: [ncurses] mark ncurses as broken, since it interferes with http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/336e09819:46
mirkowolfspraul: good morning :)20:08
wolfspraulmirko: hi good morning! :-)20:13
wolfspraulI saw the backlog that kyak said his Qt bug went away with the framebuf ENV variable. that's good :-)20:13
mirkowolfspraul: just sent a mail to the list regarding the qi-repo "openwrt-packages"20:13
mirkowolfspraul: unfortunately i still have this behaviour with nanomap20:13
wolfspraulyes, read that too20:14
mirkohave a strace: http://pastebin.com/6gq1tH7620:14
mirkoit hangs while issueing the rt_sigsuspend system call20:14
mirkoseems uclibc related20:15
mirkosince we switched back to uclibc 0.9.30 we lost the improved threaing support20:15
wolfspraulis it possible that the problem would go away if we switched back from at 4.7.0 to 4.6.2 ?20:16
mirkono, most likely not20:16
mirkoit's not qt's fault i think20:16
mirkoand we can't switch back that easy20:16
wolfspraulsure, maybe we should 'switch' forward ;-)20:16
mirkowolfspraul: well, i did once (uclibc 0.9.32) and it did break SDL ;)20:17
mirkowolfspraul: which needs to be evaluated once again - much improvements and commits happened to uclibc since then20:17
wolfspraulthere was a small msmtp patch Xiangfu sent to the openwrt mailing list a few days ago20:18
wolfspraulI havent' followed whether someone thought it's good and applied it20:18
wolfspraulit was about adding 3 scripts to the package (a patch to the Makefile)20:18
mirkohm, i don't think it's release critical20:25
wolfspraulhe, no :-)20:26
wolfspraulit's just a patch...20:26
wolfspraulbut those kinds of small things are either applied right away or forgotten20:26
mirkodidn't see it yet - just got headaches how to handle the openwrt-packages-situation :)20:27
wolfspraulyou set the openwrt-packages ncurses to broken because of a conflict. I don't know what the reason behind the openwrt-packages ncurses was, I think I saw kyak posting something about it here in irc...20:29
mirkowell, it broke alsa do i marked it as broken20:30
wolfspraulI think lars did something on the alsa side.20:30
mirkono, alsa didn't get changed20:30
mirkoat least not in the "testing"-branch (fortunately it didn't get changed :))20:31
wolfspraulmirko: how does the versioning of feeds work?20:34
mirkowolfspraul: what do you mean?20:34
wolfspraulfor example you reverted a commit in openwrt-packages now, because it didn't match the openwrt-xburst/testing branch20:34
wolfspraulso how can the openwrt-xburst/testing branch (or any OpenWrt build) pin down a feed at a certain revision?20:35
mirkowolfspraul: i created a "testing" branch in openwrt-packages.git as well20:35
mirkoand based it on the commit i created the testing image with20:35
wolfspraulwe can do that because we can create that branch, but what if the feed is maintained by someone else?20:35
mirkoso i didn't need to revert anything20:35
wolfspraulis it possible to 'pin' a feed at a certain revision?20:35
mirkoyou mean inside feeds.conf(.default)?20:36
wolfspraulyes, for example there20:36
mirkono, there's no functionality like that (yet)20:36
mirkothat's why i created the testing branch20:36
mirkothink that's the most elegant way20:37
wolfspraulyes, for now it makes sense20:37
wolfspraulmirko: so a general revision capability will come to feeds.conf at some point?20:39
mirkowolfspraul: i/we could implement it20:42
mirkoshouldn't be a big deal20:42
wolfspraulwould be a nice feature I think20:43
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: add precompiled fontcaches http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/a06166420:46
mirkobuild started20:48
mirkoouch, damn it's late again20:48
wolfspraulyeah :-)20:49
rafahe.. I am understanding why the building environments want to run qemu when building emacs :)21:58
wpwrakah ?22:00
wpwrakfor undump ?22:00
rafawpwrak: http://www.delorie.com/gnu/docs/elisp-manual-21/elisp_715.html22:00
wpwraker .. or dump :)22:01
rafathe building process builds a binary named temacs..22:01
rafaand this binary is useful to build several things.. like the final real emacs binary22:01
rafaso if you cross compile the sources you get a mipsel binary temacs22:01
rafaand you need to run it to create different kind of stuff22:01
rafathe binary is for mipsel.. so you need a mipsel machine to run it :)22:02
wpwrakkewl. they still have that :)22:02
kristianpaulphew, better i had quit emacs learning early :)22:09
kristianpaulhere we go http://www.fftw.org/doc/SIMD-alignment-and-fftw_005fmalloc.html#SIMD-alignment-and-fftw_005fmalloc22:13
kristianpaulXbusrt SIMD for FFTW vs FFT Aceleration on Fpga, lets see wich one got first ;-)22:13
wpwrakhmm, how big a stopwatch will i need ? :)22:22
kristianpaulhope no so big, first PRN code match is schedulled for 15dc acording to Free GPS Stakc wiki page22:24
kristianpaul15 dec22:25
wpwrakah, so you can just lean back and in one month it'll happen :)22:26
kristianpaulhe well is not so that way as you alrady know22:27
kristianpaulFFT on fpga is great an easy using IP cores, i'm NOT going do that, long way is DIY or look what is already done..22:27
kristianpaulSIMD well at least have some instructions documented..22:28
kristianpaulwell about FFT on FPGA i need to do more serch..22:28
kristianpaulah sure, i can run fft on my simd support amd procesor first and see waht i got22:29
wpwrakwhy do the fft on the fpga ? just grab a stream of data, send it to the pc and process it there22:29
kristianpaulis a "planned" date22:29
wpwrakonce happy with the result, see if you can do the same on the ben22:29
kristianpaulthats first plan22:29
wpwrak(amd) yup22:29
kristianpaulthe shedulle said before PRN thing, get raw data22:30
kristianpaulnow i'm reading what format to use in order get life easier to gps-sdr22:31
wpwrakfloats :) fftw likes floats ;-) even more if they're complex. and double, i guess, too :)22:32
kristianpaulbut wait, i just have a pair of 2 bit signed data..22:33
kristianpaulyes is complex22:33
kristianpaulwas real before some secret magic in the chip suposed to make my like easier??..22:34
wpwrakit's probably just how the adc is implemented :)22:34
kristianpaulyeah sure22:35
kristianpaulthe little drawing in the datsheet said that too22:35
wpwrakso you need to find algorithms that work with this sort of data. i'm sure they exist ... somewhere :)22:38
wpwraknore sure if fft is really part of it, though22:38
kristianpaulsure lots22:38
kristianpauland the non avaliable for me mathlab code of the books i'm reading22:39
kristianpaulwpwrak: it is !!22:39
kristianpaulat least i want do serial correlation on time domain fft is the way22:39
kristianpaulwhat i know i ahve to do is 1, precalculate some fft acording to one PRN code i'll try match, the multiply this by the fft from the data received, then i may get a peak (amplitude) wich show i got the "Gold Code" so i can jump data correlation steps (now real data from GPS !! :D)22:41
kristianpaulbut well thats for later i dont have yet the first i should get soemthing like this http://michelebavaro.blogspot.com/2007/04/fig-1-sige-gn3s-sampler-signal-spectrum.html22:42
kristianpaulthi guy gives better idea or what to follow in some way of course22:42
wpwrakok. you're already hovering around the edge of my signal processing knowledge :-)22:44
kristianpaulnah, just the basic concept, after skiming some books,  wait me for when i have to learn about satellite tracking and ephemeris22:46
kristianpaulthat will be fun22:46
kristianpaulbut now step by step i still stuck on data aqusition22:47
kristianpauland YES i will make posible as fast as i can raw data for other people to look at22:47
kristianpaulwell i'm off, read you later22:47
kristianpaulbut look FFT is one of the most imporant task will may consume resources, next steps will require advancend logic not worhtly to implement in hardware or acelerate some how22:50
kristianpauland so far our nanonote is not dual-cored :)22:50
wpwrakfft will be a bit of work :)22:50
wpwrakwell, there are many optimized variants ...22:51
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