#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-11-01

wpwrakah, destroying evidence :)00:00
kristianpauldamn how i'm supposed to copile a qt4 app..00:02
wpwrakbe thankful that it isn't qt5 :)00:03
kristianpauland btw i'm on jlime/OE00:06
kristianpaulon the SIE board, i already got blink fpga to load after some undesrtanding how compile xc3sprog and what C++ is good for ;)00:08
kristianpaulnow is time to run QT examples on X server (glup!)00:08
wpwrakso you solved the jtag problem ?00:08
kristianpauli'll let my cpld in their box00:09
kristianpauli have SIE and now Jliem working00:09
kristianpaulplus gcc00:09
kristianpauli'll not move from here for a while by sure00:09
wpwrakah, so you'll use SIE as a replacement for the CPLD ?00:10
kristianpaulmy ben is next to and now i just need wire the EVB and do some reading00:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: yes ;)00:10
wpwraknice way to avoid a proprietary tool :)00:11
kristianpauli'll try jtag again but i need source  a decent parallel cable00:11
kristianpaulsure not on holliday monday..00:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: he, Apple is now counter-suing Motorola over 6 patents00:15
wolfspraul18 on Moto's side, 6 on Apple's side00:15
wolfspraulas usual Apple believes in less and higher quality stuff :-)00:15
wolfspraulmay the better team win!00:16
kristianpaulwee now i'm done here gpio is working as usual :)00:17
kristianpauland the buffer was easy as this assign data_in_out = output_enable ? data_internal : 'bz;00:19
wolfspraulkristianpaul: ah, I'm trying to email SiGe about what has happened on the GPS side recently00:19
wolfspraulwhat should I tell them?00:19
wolfspraulI will point them to the GPS_Free_Stack wiki page for usre00:19
wolfspraulI think it's quite up to date and you keep updating it?00:19
wolfspraulwell that's perfect then! just keep it up to date00:19
wolfspraulI will 'ping' them every month or two00:19
kristianpaulhope next ping will have PRN code match on the mail :)00:20
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I can't find the link to that self-built GPS receiver anymore00:45
wolfspraulremember the one Sebastien pointed out to us...00:45
kristianpaulwolfspraul: http://lea.hamradio.si/~s53mv/navsats/theory.html00:47
wolfspraulah great!00:48
wolfspraulshould we add it to the bottom of GPS_Free_Stack?00:48
kristianpaulwhy not00:48
kristianpauli tought i did it00:48
kristianpaulsure i missed00:48
kristianpaultoo many links :p00:48
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I just added it00:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: (more patent lawsuits) yeah, it's getting more and more out of control. i remember that video clip from frankie goes to hollywood, "two tribes". it's the same, just with more than two sides :)01:21
sujan_has anyone tried nupdf recently?07:50
sujan_i just wonder if it's only who can't get it working07:51
B_LizzardYou mean tried compiling it?08:04
sujan_i couldn't even run it08:07
xiangfusujan_: I am compiling the nupdf now08:07
sujan_ok thanks08:10
sujan_kiangfu: i tried the old image that u mentioned yesterday08:11
sujan_and again copied nupdf08:11
B_Lizzardmupdf works well with some tweaks to the keybindings, in my opinion.08:11
sujan_and tried to open 1 page pdf with 1 sentence in it08:11
sujan_but screen goes blank as before08:11
sujan_i copied nupdf and config file and then a pdf file to nano.. that's all i did08:12
sujan_and tried to run08:12
sujan_with old openwrt image.. i can't browse file using explorer in gmu, but in the latest i can08:13
rafawell, nupdf uses mupdf, so I do not know how nupdf would work better than mupdf08:15
sujan_tnaks xianfu for your help08:16
kristianpaulrafa: no qmake in jlime..08:16
rafakristianpaul: what is qmake?08:16
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [config.full_system] add nupdf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/0defcc508:16
kristianpaulremenber QT?08:16
kristianpaulqmake is like make for QT stuff08:16
kristianpaulQT > trolltech > KDE08:16
xiangfusujan_: I got error :08:17
xiangfuroot@BenNanoNote:~# nupdf linux26_new_features.pdf08:17
xiangfuerror, file linux26_new_features.pdf does not exist08:17
kristianpaulis just SIE scope examples are made in QT ..08:17
rafakristianpaul: ah.. let me see.. I have a list of all the files from all the packages08:17
xiangfuI am sure there is a file name linux26_new_features.pdf.08:17
kristianpaulrafa: also08:18
wpwrakxiangfu: strace ?08:19
rafakristianpaul: qt4-tools-sdk package has qmake2 at /usr/local/jlime-2010.1/mipsel/bin/qmake208:19
kristianpaullet me see08:19
rafakristianpaul: the problem is: we should read some qt how to in order to know which many packages we would neeed... qt libraries, headers, etc surely are spreading into many many packages08:20
rafawhich we should have installed08:20
kristianpaulJlime$ jlime-pkg.sh install qt4-tools-sdk08:21
kristianpaulGetting installed packages list... (wait a while)08:21
kristianpaulShrinking packages DB... (wait a while, around 30 seconds) - the package does not exist.08:21
xiangfuwpwrak: oh. yes. thanks.08:21
xiangfuwpwrak: the nupdf is shell script. it's try to run /usr/share/nupdf/nupdf.bin08:21
xiangfusujan_: I will try to fix this error. then let you know. I manual copy the nupdf.bin to /usr/share/nupdf. now works fine.08:22
sujan_is that the new image08:25
sujan_of openwrt?08:26
xiangfusujan_: yes. I use the new image. 2010-09-14.08:26
kristianpaulohh new?08:27
kristianpaulxiangfu: this image correspond to wich git commit?08:27
kristianpaulxiangfu: will be help full have that info, what do you think?08:27
xiangfukristianpaul: check out this: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/Ben_NanoNote_2GB_NAND/2010-09-14/VERSIONS08:28
kristianpaulxiangfu: thats great !08:29
sujan_xiangfu: just to make myself clear,  if i  copy the nupdf.bin to /usr/share/nupdf, it will work08:29
kristianpaulbut is linked from somwgere else besides dig your webhome or asking you?08:29
kristianpauli think will be helpfll forother be aware of that, in case they already dont08:30
xiangfusujan_: yes.08:30
xiangfukristianpaul: I setup every two day. build the full_system, minimal, xbboot, you can find all those images at here:08:31
xiangfukristianpaul: I usually use this to test commit. because my laptop is not that powerfull to test all those build.08:31
xiangfukristianpaul: it's not for release , just for my test. :)08:32
kristianpaulxiangfu: ahh ;-)08:32
xiangfukristianpaul: http://fidelio.qi-hardware.com/~xiangfu/compile-log/08:32
kristianpaulok i'll still using my own image and test better :)08:32
xiangfukristianpaul: sure.08:32
kristianpaulno rush, just i tought 2010-09-14 was stable release or something08:32
xiangfuwpwrak: Hi, the error is strange. when I change the dir to /usr/share/nupdf/ then run ./nupdf.bin /PATH/TO/file.pdf is works fine.08:47
xiangfuwpwrak: here is the strace: http://pastebin.ca/197864408:48
rafaxiangfu: perhaps the nupdf.bin binary is looking some files from pwd?.. so when you run from /usr/share/nupdf/ it finds some stuff that it did not when you ran from another dir?08:50
rafaxiangfu: with strace you would realize that08:50
rafaxiangfu: ah.. you already did strace :)08:51
wpwrakxiangfu: there's a child process. you need to run strace with -f for this08:52
rafaxiangfu: yep..08:53
rafaxiangfu: did you try "nupdf /PATH/TO/file.pdf" ?08:54
rafaor just nupdf file.pdf08:54
xiangfurafa: [#nupdf /PATH/TO/file.pdf] works fine.08:55
xiangfurafa: nupdf file.pdf didn't work.08:55
rafaxiangfu: yeah.. if you run "nupdf file.pdf" then nupdf script does :08:55
rafacd /usr/share/nupdf08:55
rafaand then runs nupdf.bin file.pdf08:55
xiangfuwpwrak: here is the -f strace: http://pastebin.ca/197865108:56
rafathen nupdf.bin will not find the file.pdf08:56
rafabecause it already did chdir08:56
wpwrakline 67: chdir("/usr/share/nupdf")               = 008:57
wpwrakmaybe that's why there's a wrapper :-)08:58
wpwrakyou could use something like  if [ "${1#/}" = "$1" ]; then f=$1; else f=`pwd`/$1; fi; nupfd.bin "$f"09:07
xiangfuwpwrak: thanks. I am testing :)09:11
wpwrak(minus the typo :)  s/pfd/pdf/09:12
xiangfuwpwrak: what the ${1#/} mean ? (i need buy a book about base script :)09:14
rafaxiangfu: dont buy the book , just download :)09:14
wpwrakrafa: or man bash ;-)09:16
kristianpaulor grep the code?..09:17
kristianpaulwpwrak: are you aware ofd TP38 TP location in Ben board?09:17
wpwrakxiangfu: ${var#pattern} tries to remove the pattern from the beginning of the value of the variable. e.g., foo=abcabc; echo ${foo#a}  would yield bcabd09:17
wpwrakxiangfu: echo ${foo#*b} would yield cabc, and so on09:18
kristianpaulwolfspraul: do we have Ben PCB layers in PDF or some other media?09:18
kristianpaulPC layout*09:18
kristianpaulPCB layout*09:18
wpwrakxiangfu: note that the latter example picks the shortest match. if you want the longes match, use ${var##pattern}, e.g., ${foo##*b} would yield c09:18
wpwrakxiangfu: you can also remove things from the end, with ${var%pattern} and ${var%%pattern}09:19
wpwrakxiangfu: the  [ "${1#/}" = "$1" ]  is an idiom for testing if $1 begins with a slash. if it doesn't, then the expression becomes [ "$1" = "$1" ], i.e., true. if it does begin with a slash, the expression becomes [ "something" = "/something" ], i.e., false.09:20
kristianpaulahh founded09:20
kristianpaulhmm tricky to solder09:20
xiangfuwpwrak: very thanks. I just try 'man bash' ,it's at line 1000 :)09:21
wpwrakxiangfu: needle in a haystack ;-)09:21
xiangfuwpwrak: :)09:21
kristianpaulxiangfu: you save money today :)09:22
wpwrakkristianpaul: a nice project would be to take a picture of the pcb, superimpose a grid, and make a list of the coordinates of all the test points09:22
kristianpauli was thinking same09:22
kristianpaulbut as soon i got wired all the usefull TPs09:23
wolfspraulkristianpaul: not sure09:24
wpwrakkristianpaul:  i guess your wish list for ya includes a 40x4 100 mil header ;-)09:25
kristianpaulTps are ok, i enoy finding then09:27
kristianpauleven more wiring and soldering09:27
wpwrakwith the 3D scans, we could make animated flights. click on the TP name on a list, and it "flies" there, kinda like in google earth09:29
wpwrakof course, for better effect, it should fly low, through the space between components, star-wars style09:29
kristianpaulwpwrak:nice travel from ther CLM to main PCB :-)09:29
rafawolfspraul: wpwrak : (tuxbrain is not here):  you there?. What a good idea about a jlime image would be supported by qi and resellers?. WE have talked a lot and I know the details, but I am working on technical detais and doubs appeared. For example. Suppose that image is ready. It does not have packages with patented technologies, and you can not install those. But suppose as well that the jlime.com has a forum post which says how to install libmad packag09:55
wolfspraulwas your post cut off?09:56
rafayou can not install those = (for example) you run "Copkg install mp*player" and the package is not found09:56
rafaah.. okey :) .. where it finished?09:57
rafawpwrak: what are the last 3 words that you read?09:57
wpwrakinstall libmad packa|09:58
wolfspraulif I understand your question right, you are wondering whether you want to censor patented stuff on jlime.com as well09:58
wpwrakah yes, right. "packa|" is ambiguous ;-)09:58
rafaBut suppose as well that the jlime.com has a forum post which says how to install libmad package on jlime for ben.09:58
wolfspraulyou have both options, it depends on you09:58
rafaThat would not work on the jlime version for qi/resellers, the post would talk about the standar jlime version. Would be that a problem for you?09:58
wolfspraulso, we can go either way09:58
wolfspraulif you do not want to censor things on jlime.com, then we cannot have any links (<a href="") to jlime.com on the qi servers09:59
wolfspraulbut we can still use a Jlime image, with package repository ideally on a non-jlime.com server09:59
wolfspraulsimilar to OpenWrt09:59
rafawolfspraul: (if you do not want to censor things on jlime.com, then we cannot have any links (<a href="") to jlime.com on the qi): ah.. okey.. clear :)09:59
rafawolfspraul: one question:10:00
wolfspraulI am not crazy worried about this, for example OpenWrt had a news article about Ben NanoNote support once.10:00
wpwrak(in my opinion, links to jlime.com ought to be okay, as long as there's "benign" content on the pages we link to. just not deep inside)10:00
wolfsprauland I believe I sent some mails linking back to it10:00
rafawhat about if the image says on some part (suppose wallpaper): jlime.com :P ?10:00
rafathe image would be pointing to jlime.com ?10:00
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [nupdf] fix the static path bug. thanks Werner http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/d7b3e2810:00
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes I agree but we need to be careful on this, links are dangerous10:00
wolfspraulin the end someone who want to show a patent infringement will come from the other side, and so will I when I look at it10:01
wolfspraulfirst I take the device, boot10:01
wpwrakthey are. getting a bit better lately, it seems, though.10:01
wolfspraultry to play MP310:01
wolfspraulthen I will go to qi-hardware.com (since it's printed on the NanoNote)10:01
wolfspraulI will try to install packages, or find instructions in the wiki (search: "mp3")10:02
wpwraki'd just google for "ben mp3" ;-)10:02
wolfspraulrafa: note I am always in the qi-hardware.com site first10:02
wolfspraulwpwrak: well no, then there is no infringement case, as you know10:02
rafawolfspraul: wpwrak : yes, it is hard to try to agree the technical details. I think that there is not a proper post explaining how to install a mp3 player on jlime for ben. But it could appear soon for some users posting on forums, or for us on wiki pages, so it is like if currently those howtos exist there.10:03
wolfspraulrafa: so we need to make sure that they cannot show a way that the Ben has 'mp3 capability' and only utilize software or packages or instructions they got pre-installed, or from qi-hardware.com servers, or from servers qi-hardware.com servers are linking to10:03
wolfspraulremember they are coming from that side!10:03
wolfspraulthey are not first going to jlime.com10:03
wpwrakyup. just saying that the very indirect path seems constructed. yes, you can make a connection this way, but it's not as if you'd like to a location specifically about infringements.10:03
wolfspraulso again, I come from the other side10:04
wolfspraulmy job is not to cleanse jlime.com10:04
wolfspraulI never once mentioned to the openwrt people that they need to remove anything10:04
wolfspraulin my opinion, and in the legal advice I got, they don't10:04
wolfspraulthe question is whether _I_ infringe, with my actions, or with the devices I'm selling (or others that are selling them)10:04
rafawolfspraul: wpwrak : yeah, but we do not want to make a image just replacing all the strings "jlime.com" for (empty) and I think that we are not going to have a mirror server of packages repository outside of jlime.com, because we do not have more servers and also because that would be so10:05
rafaa delicated thing that we would have to agree between all, and being jlime a kind of anarchy (or whatever you want to say about some small group without written rules)10:06
rafait is really hard to agree internally.10:06
wolfspraula repository link to jlime.com/some_location is borderline10:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: understood. but i find it somewhat dubious if linking to a fairly general location would be considered as making you part of the infringement. the cases i've read about all seemed to have been about considerably more specific cases. e.g., linking to a extremist fora or to companies whose main product was designed to infringe. none of this is the case for jlime.10:07
wolfspraulfor sure that some_location must not offer packages that would allow to show an infringement10:07
rafawolfspraul: wpwrak : so I understand that the image for qi/resellers could not have jlime.com in any way, that is almost a thing that will not happen I would say :)10:07
wolfspraulwhich links do you have, and where?10:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes agreed. I'm no extremist on this. Sisvel (for example) needs to show an infringement, and they don't want to embarass themselves.10:08
wolfspraulbut if there is a link, we have to be careful10:08
rafawolfspraul: I should that some text files, config files, etc would have jlime.com.. still if those files are not related with package manager10:08
wolfspraulthe link just needs to go to the wrong place and make it very easy for them to show the infringement10:09
rafaI should= I would say10:09
wolfspraul(potentially, that's my point)10:09
wolfspraulrafa: should be OK if none of this is leading towards MP310:09
wolfspraulfor example if there is a text file somewhere "to install additional codecs, you can try ..."10:09
wolfspraulthat's not so good :-)10:09
wolfspraulthey need to demonstrate (!) how the infringement works, and need to make it legally stick to whoever they are dragging to court10:10
wolfspraulin that process, they cannot just insert some totally random steps, that will never be accepted, and they will never even try, imo10:10
rafawolfspraul: yes, but again.. you go to jlime.com because you read jlime.com from some text file. Then you look "mp3 on ben" at forums at jlime.com .. and you find something.. I am not saying that currently there are explanations or documentation saying how to install packages to play/decode mp3/mp4, but those could appear some day10:10
wolfspraulthere must be context around where the link is given10:11
wolfspraulsome text10:11
wolfspraulif that text has nothing to do with MP3, or codecs, then I think it should be fine10:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: (no crazy steps) yup, that's my point10:14
rafawolfspraul: okey, and what about repository?.. suppose that current reposity is : bash, libmad, gawk packages. The image for qi/resellers will fail if somebody tries to install libmad. Is that okey? I mean.. the libmad package exists on jlime.com .. but you can not install that on jlime image version for resellers.10:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think we differ in our interpretation of what constitutes a "crazy step" :)10:14
kristianpaulwolfspraul: links ok i understand, so either mentione the word jlime on qi wiki?10:15
rafaargh... where is tuxbrain?!10:16
wolfspraulrafa: why will the qi image fail to install libmad?10:16
wolfspraulhow does that work?10:16
wpwrakrafa: i think it would be cleanest to just have a (filtered) copy of the repository somewhere on qi-hw10:17
rafawolfspraul: some way like lars suggested. For example: suppose that there is a package called "free". That "free" package conflits with all the packages with patented technologies. Then if you try: opkg install libmad.. it will fail saying you "libmad conflicts with "free" package". . And you can not uninstall the free package because, suppose, libc depends on it.10:19
kristianpaulrafa: youshould work witht the FSF ;-) on that ideas10:20
wolfspraulrafa: that sounds pretty scary to me :-)10:20
rafawolfspraul: haha :D10:20
wolfspraulyou make one little mistake/bug anywhere in this, and they will find it, and show you the command that installs libmad10:20
wolfspraulright in court :-)10:21
kristianpaulwhy not the ubuntu way?10:21
wolfspraullike opkg install -f libmad...10:21
wolfspraulthen you go10:21
wolfspraulforgot the -force flag10:21
kristianpaulyou should be aware in some countries is posisble uses mp3 free decoders10:21
rafakristianpaul: FSF has gpl and GNU well done. I do not know if the work on patents is something to do with them since they are just worried about software mainly10:21
kristianpaulrafa: FSF/free sofware endorseed distros10:21
kristianpaulwell those actually play mp310:22
kristianpaulany way10:22
rafawolfspraul: (bug( well, that is an example. suppose that you can not install libmad but libmad lives on jlime.com. That was my main question :)10:22
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove the /etc/VERSION file. this file always generate by build scripts http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/f610bc610:23
wolfspraulrafa: yes I understand. it not only 'lives on jlime.com', but in fact the infringing .opk file is right in the same folder if I understand correctly.10:24
wpwraki still think the best would be a copy of the jlime repository on qi-hw, where all the offending packages are absent and they also don't show up in the principal index files10:25
wolfspraulmaybe apt-get show libmad will already praise the mp3 features10:25
wolfspraulI feel that is very very borderline stuff.10:25
wpwrakthe question whether qi-hw can link to jlime.com and in what form, would be a separate issue10:26
wolfspraulrafa: is there some package search feature that would allow you to search for mp3?10:27
wolfspraulI think you cannot link to a repository that contains mp3 packages, it sounds like asking for trouble.10:28
rafawpwrak: copy of repository on qi-hw: well, if that is an easy task to do we would be okey I think. If for example, we/qi mirrors our repository (without offending packages) on qi-hw once a year and we will not add wolfspraul more tasks to do then that would be easy perhaps. I mean.. our repository is there.. so anyone can copy it. That is not a problem.10:28
wolfspraulthe idea with the 'free' package and package conflicts is nice, but quite engineering thinking10:28
wolfspraulrafa: can you identify all packages that include mp3?10:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: (free package) i wonder if you could just uninstall that package :)10:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: rafa said that would be blocked, but when I hear this whole thing I'm kind of shivering :-)10:29
rafawolfspraul: to detect offending packages I would check on metadata of every package with someting like egrep -i "player|mpeg|mp3|mp4|264|etc"10:29
wolfspraulthat's when the lawyers start smiling... :-)10:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: (can't uninstall) ah, right. now i saw it. yup, slippery slope.10:30
wpwrakrafa: since you would have some means to flag problem packages anyway, the mirror process could just use the same information10:30
wolfspraulunfortunately these guys are good at finding mp3, they probably have list of packages/software to look for etc.10:31
wolfspraulI mean they do the same thing over and over for many years...10:31
rafawpwrak: uninstall free package: well, it was a hypothetical thing to ask about "you can not install libmad but libmad lives on the same repository that other packages".. NO idea if there is a rule to avoid uninstall a package.. But suppose that you have enough skill to pass all the rules and manually uninstall the free package. That is the same thing that if you just replace the package manager config file and point it to another repository with different 10:32
wpwrakthere's probably a force option for  opkg remove free  too ...10:33
djbclarkwolfspraul: re: formats do you or anyone else here know if anyone has gotten speex to work on ben nanonote?10:33
wpwrakrafa: yeah, it's all just shades of grey ...10:33
rafawpwrak: but is not that (uninstall free package with enough skills) the same that if you just remove that jlime version and install the standar version?10:34
rafawpwrak: you are doing some tasks on your ben with enough skill to play mp310:34
Action: djbclark notes that is http://www.speex.org/ "Speex: A Free Codec For Free Speech" for those who are unaware10:34
djbclark(it is awesome at compressing voice / speaches / etc)10:34
wolfspraulrafa: ah well. not really. the interesting thing is the LINK again.10:34
wolfspraulif you go and edit the repository link (!) - where do you have it from?10:35
wolfspraulhowever, even though you think some --force or whatever options are 'hard to find', there may well be documentation right on the device10:35
wolfspraul'info opkg10:35
wolfspraulso the question is not how hard to find something is, but when they demo the infringement, whether they do so along lines that are legally acceptable or not10:36
wolfspraulalso you are risking that a simple repository search for 'mp3' will already give you positive results10:36
wolfspraulall risky stuff!10:36
wolfspraulis there a 'opkg search' feature?10:36
rafawolfspraul: yes10:36
rafaopkg search <expr>10:37
wolfspraulwell just try - search for 'mp3'10:37
wolfspraulyou really want that search to come back empty10:37
rafawolfspraul: yes.. I know10:37
wolfspraulthis is not a good thing to leave such an easy target/evidence for them10:37
rafawolfspraul: so?.. better way to continue? .. a mirror repository without offending packages and proper indexes wihtout those listed as well?10:38
rafawpwrak: (question for you as well)10:38
wpwrakrafa: that would eliminate most of my concerns, yes10:38
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: copy data folder from history branch http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/842fa6f10:48
qi-bot[commit] kyak: gitignore vim temporary files (*~) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/7e7437d10:48
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add Nanonoe special feeds.conf under data folder http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/f1d5d3710:48
rafawpwrak: so we need a mirror repository for that. Where? :) When I have proper indexes I can give some script to somebody to build a mirror repository without offending packages10:48
wpwrakrafa: (where) wolfgang would know where he's got a suitable server. my guess would be downloads.qi-hardware.com10:49
wpwrakmaybe downloads.qi-hardware.com/jlime/ ;-) (things may get a bit confusing with the current names, though. so far, they kind of assume there's only one distro)10:50
wpwrakor hide the real location somewhere in the web server's rewriting rules it and make it jlime.qi-hardware.com10:51
wpwrakor whatever ;-) endless possibilities ...10:51
wolfspraulI'm calling it a day10:58
rafawolfspraul: bye, thanks10:59
wolfspraulrafa: thanks for your patience in the patent stuff...10:59
wolfspraulit's hard to focus your mind around this I'm sure10:59
wolfspraulwhat a waste of time.10:59
rafawolfspraul: nah.. we just want to be free11:00
qbjectdjbclark: How fare your efforts to distribute Bens in the US?11:13
wpwrakqbject: customers lining up, banging at the door ? ;-)11:15
qbjectwpwrak djbclark: door-banging is my purpose in asking.11:16
qbjectLooks like I'll have my lathe and mill moved sooner than I thought, so I'm going to have reason to disassemble my first Ben pretty soon.11:18
qbjectAnd I don't care to be Ben-less while I work.11:18
wpwrakit's always good to have backups :)11:20
wpwrakwhat are the first things you plan to do ?11:21
qbjectwpwrak: The first thing I'll probably do is just replace the glossy black parts of the Ben housing with linen micarta11:25
qbjectBut my goal is to devise a new housing with a larger keyboard, ideally made out of custom handmade garolite.11:27
wpwrakhow will you shape the micarta ?11:29
qbjectwpwrak: Small manual milling machine (http://www.sherline.com/mills.htm) and probably some hand work with abrasives.11:31
wpwrakwhee. no cnc then ?11:32
qbjectNo, some day, but not yet.11:32
wpwrakso i still have time for turning the scans into STLs :)11:33
qbjectyes you do. :)11:34
qbjectMy intention is to do dimensioned part prints in QCAD based on actual measurements. Old-school reverse engineering.11:35
Action: xiangfu just send one email to list about openwrt-xburst.git cleanup. 11:35
Action: xiangfu is compiling full_system, xbboot, minimal on the new [master]. let's see what's going on tomorrow11:36
wpwrakhmm, i found the 3d scans helpful for getting and verifying measurements. some areas are difficult to handle with conventional tools. e.g., the inside of the bottom shell.11:36
qbjectI really appreciate that you've made the resource available, and will definitely use them for that. What do you load the scans into to take measurements off of them?11:38
wpwrakso what i did is that i first got measurements from the scans, then drew my model, and merged it with the scans. that way, i could see whether i got the lines/surfaces right.11:38
qbjectSounds like a very good approach.11:38
wpwraki did the measurements with the proprietary program that came with the mill. but i think heekscad can do it too.11:39
wpwrakfor displaying, i used heekscad11:39
wpwrakthat is, displaying of the structure merged with the scans11:39
wpwrakfor nice-looking pictures, i like meshlab a little better11:40
qbjectwpwrak: what sort of hardware do you run heekscad and meshlab on? My linux box is an Atom netbook.11:59
wpwrakmy pc is fairly powerful, q6600 cpu (quad-core, although an old one), 8 GB of RAM, three screens. no proprietary video drivers, so no GL acceleration.12:01
qbjectgot it.12:03
qbjectwpwrak: With the Ben's small LCD, I'm looking forward to packaging the mainboard, screen, and battery in the top of the clamshell, and having the keyboard set up as an entirely separate piece of hardware in the bottom.12:22
wpwrakdo you have a specific pre-made keyboard in mind ? or are you thinking of making your own ?12:23
qbjectwpwrak: per our Atmel conversation last week or whenever, I'm not sure. Original plan was to do a capacitive touch setup running on an AVR of some sort, but I was gonna use the QTouch blob.12:25
qbjectSomeone else wrote a similar sensor routine for Arduino, which might be an option, but I'm concerned that it might infringe the QTouch patent even though he didn't use their blob.12:26
wpwrakah, i see. an alternative would be a keyboard similiar to what the ben has today.12:27
qbjectBut that would be ideal. An arduino capacitive touch on the back of a nice sturdy piece of FR4, with some piezo transducers to give feedback.12:28
wpwraknot sure if capacitative would be so much fun for typing, though. it's nice to have tactile feedback.12:29
qbjectwpwrak: Ultimately, I agree. I'm just trying to balance with durability & simplicity.12:32
qbjectare the ben's existing sensors capacitive or conductive?12:33
wpwrakokay, there just a simple board wins12:33
wpwrakconductive. it's little domes12:34
wpwraklike these http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SW978-ND12:35
wpwrakonly bigger. the ben's have a diameter of 5 mm12:36
qbjectHuh. So the dome buckles and the metal plate comes in contact with contacts on the board?12:37
wpwrakone of my plans is to make a keyboard with different keycaps but the same size and technology12:37
wpwrakif you look at the data sheet, there they explain it well12:37
qbject"Do not wash the Dome Key. The Dome Key is not water-resistant and must not be exposed to water or other liquids." :(12:40
qbjectMy ideal keyboard passes the .5 liter/meter test.12:40
qbjectThat is, it withstands the impact, splash, and subsequent cleanup from a half-liter of beer dropped from one meter up. =D12:41
wpwrakyou can put a plastic film over the domes. when you disassemble the ben, you'll see the details12:41
wpwrak(beer 1 m up) i was wondering if it was peeing distance ;-)12:41
kristianpaulgnucap http://www.delorie.com/electronics/spice-stuff/13:47
wpwrakkristianpaul: have you tried qucs yet ?13:51
viricwpwrak: I still have to try it! :)13:53
viriconce I'll get some need for it, I'll try.13:54
wpwrakviric: you'll like it. it's really easy to use.13:56
qbjectwpwrak: has anyone experimented with hooking multiple batteries in parallel to a Ben?13:57
wpwrakthat should work13:58
kristianpaulwow http://www.baudline.com/screenshots.html13:59
kristianpaulwpwrak: no13:59
kristianpauli just found the link and save in case i need it later14:00
kristianpaulqucs <- looks good14:00
kristianpaullol http://www.baudline.com/screenshots/matrix.png14:01
viricbaudline looks great! :)14:02
kristianpaulbut wonder if can really help14:03
kristianpaulbut loooks interesting14:03
kristianpauland license suck14:04
kristianpauloh but is soo good ( it seems in pictures)14:05
wpwrakfunny, "Purchase the GPL source code"14:06
kristianpaulhttp://www.baudline.com/spectrogram.html !!14:06
kristianpaulwpwrak: lets buy it all togheter !14:06
rafawpwrak: if it is so expensive I can sell you a cheaper one14:08
viricSo, they want to control the distribution through the license.14:08
kristianpaul#  64 MB RAM14:08
rafa"You are not allowed to distribute this software."14:10
wpwrakrafa: kinda like meeting a sexy girl and then finding out that "she" is all male below the waistline, eh ? ;-)14:33
qbjectwpwrak: more like meeting her, finding out how well you two fit, then discovering that she still takes dating advice from her overprotective father.14:44
wpwrakqbject: heh, more subtle :)14:47
qbjectwpwrak: Well, I know the girl you're talking about. Gotta look out for my friends. :-P14:48
rafawpwrak: maybe gpl is for them "general prostitution license".. you just can see if you pay, and you are not allowed to distribute.. without to pay first14:48
wpwrakrafa: Gaudy Pimp License ?14:50
wpwrakGreedy Pimp License ?14:51
kristianpaulhmm Tp38 ( GPD15) is not working as i spected..17:32
wpwrakhow come ?17:36
kristianpaulled is wired, i'm turning off and still on17:37
kristianpaulbut is weird17:37
kristianpaulis not full lighted17:38
wpwrakhmm, maybe a pull-up ?17:38
kristianpauli'll check code again17:38
wpwrakpoke is your friend :-)17:38
kristianpaulpoke works on port C17:39
kristianpaulah wait poke is different from ben-blinken.. ?17:39
wpwrakyeah :)17:39
wpwrakpoke works everywhere :)17:39
kristianpaulwhere is it btw?17:39
bartbeskristianpaul: so what pin are you using?17:39
kristianpaulbartbes: Tp38 ( GPD15)17:40
bartbeswhich is...17:40
wpwraki think xiangfu also put it into openwrt17:40
kristianpaulyes i saw it..17:40
wpwrakbartbes: TP38 has no other function17:41
bartbesam I supposed to know where TP38 is?17:41
bartbesdoes it have an external.. pad/connection/whatever-you-want-to-call-it?17:41
kristianpaulnear to SoC chip17:41
bartbesI'll take that as a no :P17:41
bartbesso what pins *are& exposed?17:42
kristianpaulwhat's exposed for you?  :-)17:43
bartbesin case I ever want to mess around with I/O *without* having to open the case?17:43
kristianpauleven tought you need an adapter17:43
bartbesthose and the ttl ones?17:43
kristianpaulto expose thos pins17:43
kristianpauli think those pins are 3v3 ttl right17:44
kristianpaulwpwrak: poke is dageuors17:44
kristianpauli could do..17:44
kristianpaullets try17:44
bartbesand I guess they are taken by the kernel, i.e. not usable for other stuff?17:44
wpwrakkristianpaul: poke is POWERFUL :)17:45
kristianpaulbartbes: uSD port > uSD stuff17:45
kristianpaulso ne carefull (in sofware)17:45
bartbestalking about ttl now17:45
bartbeswpwrak: sure, powerful oftentimes means you need to treat it with care17:45
kristianpaulbut you said kernel? right?17:45
bartbesit can use the same power to destroy things17:45
kristianpaulkernel panic..17:57
wpwrakbartbes: (uSD) the kernel will step aside if you ask nicely. hmm, seems that i lost my notes with that command as well :-(17:58
wpwrakkristianpaul: poked to death ? :)17:58
kristianpaulwpwrak: ask -> rmmod mmc?17:58
wpwrakkristianpaul: that would be one option. there's also an echo <stuff> >/sys/<somewhere>/unbind17:59
kristianpaulthats polite}17:59
larscwpwrak: i got the jz4740 spl from 4,6k down to 1,8k. so there is plenty of room for a decompressor18:04
kristianpauloh that mean n more uboot? :)18:04
kristianpauldamn input/output error18:05
larsckristianpaul: maybe18:06
kristianpaulthat will be neat18:06
kristianpaulone sofware less to care about :)18:06
wpwraklarsc: wow, quite a diet ! :-)18:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: the sooner u-boot dies, the better ;-)18:10
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Revition... http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/2db4e5218:51
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Revition... http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a42266b18:52
qbjectwpwrak: What's wrong with u-boot?18:54
wpwrakqbject: it tries to be a little operating system on its own. we already have a fully grown operating system, linux. so it's better to use that, isn't it ? :)18:56
bartbeshmm but won't we lose software usb and mmc boot?18:57
qbjectwpwrak: Yes it is. I love simplicity and culling out parts that aren't needed. Sounds like a very good plan.18:57
wpwrakbartbes: usb boot comes somewhere from the ROM. MMC could be handled by linux.18:58
bartbesoh btw, qbject, don't know if you noticed, but I updated the Makefile for nlove.. 2 days go iirc18:58
bartbes(of course there have been changes since, but mostly related to the build system)18:58
qbjectbartbes: mighty cool. I'll make time to mess with it soon.18:58
qbjectwpwrak: do you mean that the kernel could be loaded, then used to load an alternate kernel from the MMC?18:59
qbjectnever mind. I'll ask tomorrow. Time to go home. :)19:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: i was told that linux extended documentation is a bit poor, how of is that of true?19:23
kristianpaulor do i need buy a  book or soemthing?19:23
kristianpauli just some vague idea about kernel drivers19:23
kristianpaulnothing aboiut boot process or task management19:23
mthkristianpaul: the Linux Device Drivers book is available as a free (gratis) PDF19:25
mthit's not fully up to date, but it contains a lot of useful info19:25
kristianpaulmth: yeah thats the only i learned from linux19:25
kristianpaulbut next i discover direct memory maping thanks to wpwrak19:25
kristianpaulso i dont need do modules19:26
kristianpaulnot for basic gpio task19:26
kristianpauli'm just curios about the other linux parts..19:26
mththere is also a more recent book: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/10/01/1315233/Linux-Kernel-Development-3rd-Ed19:27
kristianpaulwtf i'm  doing something bad related to port D19:27
mthI haven't read it myself though19:27
kristianpauland my linux got freezed19:27
kristianpaulmth: hey i dint knew that19:28
mthdid you check Documentation/gpio.txt yet?19:28
kristianpauli stoped reaidn \. time ago19:28
kristianpaulmth: yes19:28
kristianpaulnot for what i need :)19:28
mththere is a lot of noise and bad editing on slashdot, but sometimes something useful comes along19:28
wpwrakmth: this book should be pretty good. i once looked at a few kernel hacking books for our team at openmoko, and that's the one i liked best.19:29
kristianpauli just want a small linux :)19:29
kristianpaulnothing bloated19:30
kristianpaula trusty linux19:30
kristianpaullike the real time os for phones19:30
mthwpwrak: I might put it on my xmas list then :)19:30
kristianpaulwhat? do you know what pdf is good for?19:31
mthkristianpaul: huh? the newer book is not in PDF19:33
kristianpaulmth: it is19:33
mthofficially or scanned by someone?19:33
kristianpaulsearcheable pdf19:34
kristianpaulmay be i'm wrong19:35
kristianpaulbut looks like in the preview19:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Introducing cameo, a toolbox of CAM operations. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/0bc780619:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo: detect and adjust handedness http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/54d854919:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Corrected math for offsets to work also for angles different from 90 degrees. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/5c9e7d519:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Enable more compiler warnings. Some cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/d465acb19:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Accept multiple paths and distinguish between inner paths and the outer path. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/17afa3e19:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added override (in gnuplot file) for inside/outside path detection. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/d77b4c819:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Dogbone notches are now optional and can be set in the gnuplot file. http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/b47ef7519:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/path.c (path_add_point): ignore duplicate points http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/ffc908a19:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Make toolpath cameo-friendly and use cameo for tool size compensation. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9103ae019:35
mththe preview is just 2 chapters though19:36
kristianpauli'll end usign uSD port if i cant handle well two ports..19:37
kristianpauland i nedd 3 pins19:37
kristianpaullets see if portc have one more free port somwhere19:37
kristianpaulred screen !19:50
kristianpaulthat TP25 is hidding something19:57
kristianpaulecho -n "1-1:1.0" /sys/bus/mmc/drivers/mmcblk/unbind22:02
kristianpaulecho -n "1-1:1.0" /sys/bus/platform/drivers/jz4740-mmc/unbind22:03
kristianpauli realized my problem with port D was that is used by mmc driver22:04
kristianpauland considering i have two D ports free on baord i want to do this as clean posible22:05
kristianpaulwait  i miss the tree command22:10
kristianpaulso me t5p1d..22:11
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