#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2010-10-29

wpwrakwolfspraul: what happened: /home of my workstation died. a bit too quickly to recover any data :-( now i'm restoring things ... from repositories, memory, ancient backups, ...02:08
wolfspraulnot much I can do to help I guess02:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: i'll have a few more days of fun... ;)02:11
wolfspraulyeah, sorry to hear that.02:12
wolfspraulI have two questions for you still :-)02:12
wolfspraulfirst is about the resistor on the jtag-serial board, Yanjun Luo did change it to a 250V rating now02:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: what threw me off was that - for some mysterious reason - the pc didn't mount root when a first looked at the problem. that's why i thought it was the other disk. otherwise, i may have had a bit more time to recover things while the failing disk still had some life in it.02:13
wolfspraulmy problem is in digikey I cannot find 'voltage rating' as a parameter for resistors02:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: (resistor) heh ;-)02:13
wolfspraulit has Power (Watts)02:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: BOOM to the rescue ;-)02:13
wolfspraulis that the right value and do I need to do some math?02:13
wolfspraulwell yes true, but then I would need to encode the fields correctly for boom02:13
wolfspraulwill 1M/250V work? (as the value field)02:14
wolfspraul1206 in the footprint02:14
wolfspraulI could just try, but I am worried it will pick the wrong part.02:14
wpwrakpower is an indirect indicator. voltage and power both depend on the package size (and a bit on the type of resistor)02:14
wpwrak1M/250V will work if you teach the .sub file how to handle it :)02:15
wolfspraulcan I copy it from somewhere?02:15
wpwrakthere's a new tool that can help you with this ... lemme fetch eda-tools ...02:15
wpwrakah no, it's in the openmoko svn ... testsub02:17
wpwrakwhere/ever/boom testsub file.sub R123 1M/250V 1206 ...02:17
wolfspraulI don't want to distract you from your recovery job, I'll look around myself no worries...02:18
wpwrakwill tell you what file.sub does with it02:18
wolfspraulok I look02:18
wolfspraulsecond thing I had - we got our OUI!02:18
wpwrakyipee ! it is a "nice' number ?02:18
wolfspraulhe, you tell me02:19
wpwrakand how much are those critters nowadays ? i once bought one for USD 1k. i think openmoko's was 2k.02:19
wolfspraul1650 USD02:19
wolfspraulthis is for Qi Hardware now, so I plan a similar system with a wiki page and all Qi projects can use those numbers02:20
wolfspraulin fact that's what I wanted to discuss02:20
wpwrakvery moderate inflation then :)02:20
wolfspraulthe IEEE really is keen on making sure that all numbers are used02:20
wolfspraulnot very wasteful 'blocks'02:20
wolfspraulso how do we do that?02:20
wolfspraulshould we just start with 00-00-01 to 00-00-06 for the 6 Milkymist One RC1 boards?02:21
wpwrakyeah, at least they say that they're very rigid on this02:21
wolfspraulwell I want to play by the book02:21
wpwraknot sure how bad they really are02:21
wolfspraulsure but why waste...02:21
wolfspraulso we could have a wiki page02:21
wolfsprauland whenever people need some, even for small runs, they just increment02:21
wolfspraulthat's one way02:21
wolfspraulor we do have 'blocks'02:22
wolfspraulbut then first of all some blocks may stay very empty, and we need to 'fill' those blocks later, or a block may get full and another one is needed02:22
wpwrakyou could make small blocks02:22
wolfspraulI almost feel a sequential model is best, with the wiki it should be possible to administer it02:22
wolfspraulI don't expect thousands of runs, and even if there are hundreds after some years, fine there can be a table with some x hundred rows02:23
wolfspraulwell, before I start I thought I discuss with you02:23
wolfspraultake your time...02:23
wolfspraulmy vote is probably for a simple sequential model02:23
wpwrakif you make 1000 devices in one go, you can just allocate 1000 sequential numbers :)02:23
wolfspraulall products mixed, just increment as many as you need for the run right in front of you02:23
wolfspraulah yes, sure02:23
wolfspraulI would allocate the first 6 (in retrospect) for the first 6 Milkymist One devices02:24
wolfspraulthe RC1 run02:24
wolfsprauland another 35 for the RC2 run02:24
wolfspraulif you need some for ben-wpan you just add to the table, even down to 1 if you like02:24
wolfspraulat least it's an official table and we can really make sure those numbers are 'officially' and globally unique02:24
wpwraksounds good to me, at least for now02:24
wolfspraulok great02:25
wpwrakthere's a tiny privacy/security concern with having MACs that are traceable to eactly production dates, but that's probably nothing really worth worrying about02:26
wolfspraulwe discussed this subject (unique/serial number) in general before you joined02:26
wpwrakoh, and WPAN uses some new IEEE MAC addresses with 64 bits. i haven't studied them yet, but they probably just added some 16 more bits. so no risk to run out of these anytime soon :)02:27
wolfspraulback then the consensus was that we are not against unique/serial numbers, because they can have many positive benefits02:27
wolfspraulbut we have two requirements with each such number:02:27
wolfspraul1) easily/conveniently removable02:27
wolfspraul2) documented02:27
wpwrakunique is a requirement anyway. what i meant was that you could cross-link it to some other data, e.g., build date, hardware revision, etc.02:28
wpwrakremovable is good, yes02:28
wolfspraullike I said02:28
wolfspraulthat is possible, and there are many positive things that you can do with the cross-linking02:28
wolfspraulso we are not saying 'copyleft hardware = anonymous hardware'02:29
wolfspraulas in - never any unique/serial numbers02:29
wpwrakno tin foil hat :)02:29
wolfspraulthe consensus was: a) removable b) documented02:29
wolfspraulbut with those 2 requirements, bring them on, no problem02:29
wpwraksounds good to me02:29
wolfspraulmaybe I mention this policy/idea at the top of the page02:29
wolfspraulthe IEEE doesn't like 'MAC-48', they want to say 'EUI-48'02:30
wolfspraulI will just make multiple tables then, if ben-wpan only needs EUI-6402:30
wolfspraulif it's indeed EUI-64 only, you can go into a range 'outside' of the EUI-48 range, thereby not using up any EUI-48 numbers02:31
wolfspraulup to you02:31
wolfspraullet's just start the wiki page, to track/coordinate who is using what02:31
wpwrak(eui-48/64) hmm, i wonder if they form completely separate namespaces. good question ...02:33
wolfspraulwell we can see later02:33
wolfspraulif someone needs a EUI-64 number only, it should be chosen outside of the EUI-48 range, to conserve those numbers02:33
wolfspraulif you need a EUI-64 number that can 'fallback' to EUI-48, then of course you just take real EUI-48 numbers and encode them as EUI-6402:33
wolfspraulthat's a requirement of the product, the wiki page is just to track who took what02:34
wpwrakseems that they defined it the other way around: there's a 0xffff codepoint in eui-64 that allows you to encapsulate eui-48 :)02:34
wolfspraulso like I said, whoever needs/wants a EUI-64 needs to know whether there is any reason to take a 0xFFFF encodede EUI-48, or one outside of that02:35
wolfspraulI will start 2 tables then, to track EUI-48/MAC-48 and (real) EUI-64 assignments02:35
wolfspraulwith 'real' I mean non-0xFFFF EUI-6402:36
wolfspraulthose can show up in the EUI-48 table02:36
wpwrakalright. maybe reserve some small range for "local use experiments". e.g., 00-00-xx[-xx-xx] or such02:37
wpwrakah, interesting. EUI-48 != MAC-4802:39
wpwrakwikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAC_address) is slightly too dismissive about that difference. after all, it was IEEE worth one extra codepoint (0xfffe) to make this distinction02:42
wpwrakah, but they mention the encapsulation as well02:44
wolfspraulthe encapsulation in EUI-64 is different?02:44
wolfspraulI was just thinking about making just one table for both MAC-48 and EUI-4802:45
wpwrakgood. now i know that thingy too. i had seen it before and couldn't quite make sense of it back then (lacking context)02:45
wolfspraulif the EUI-48 is in fact another namespace then I make the table only for MAC-48 :-)02:45
wolfspraulfor Milkymist One, we need MAC-48 numbers, no?02:45
wpwrakit seems that the EUI-48 and MAC-48 aren't quite different but not quite the same either :)02:46
wpwrakfor MM1, tht would be ethernet ? that should be MAC-4802:46
wpwrakthe wikipedia article says that MAC-48 and EUI-48 are from the same address pool02:47
wpwrakthe distinction looks like a case of a bit of overengineering02:48
wolfspraulok I start with a MAC-48 only table, assign 6 + 35 for Milkymist One RC1 and RC202:48
wolfspraulafter that, if ben-wpan comes along and needs something, I'm sure you/we have figured out what the best number is02:49
wolfspraulmaybe it's a case of corporate/authority envy, there are so many articles about what a MAC-48 is, but they were not written by the IEEE02:50
wolfspraulso they had to do something about that, and said "bah", it's EUI-48 now :-)02:50
wolfsprauland _WE_ will say what that is :-)02:50
wpwraktrademark it too, for good measure :)02:50
wolfspraulI am wondering whether we should also assign proper MAC addresses to NanoNotes, for USB-ethernet networking?02:52
wolfspraulit wasn't needed for now at least, well we can do it when someone understands the need and implements it too02:52
wpwrakdunno what the implications are. as far as i recall, usb-ether by default just borrows from some company's MAC address space.02:53
wolfspraulwhy does Openmoko have one then?02:54
wpwrakyou can distinguish devices that way. if you have more than one, things seem to get funny with certain host operating systems. mac and such.02:56
wolfspraulwere the Openmoko numbers ever used? I never heard about it...02:57
wpwraki think they were. at least qi (the boot loader) passed them to the kernel. not sure about u-boot.02:58
wpwrakbut about the only context where i remember having heard about it mattering was with macs.03:00
wolfspraulwhat do you think? good start?03:09
wpwraklooks good. maybe link to the IEEE document, considering that you've already uploaded it ?03:09
wpwrakthe assignment letter03:10
wolfspraulI was trying to dig up the USB letter, but couldn't find it anymore. Too bad.03:10
wpwrakqi-hw inc, san francisco. so that's why people sometimes refer to qi-hw as a US company :)03:13
wolfspraulyes the inc still exists03:15
wolfspraulit's all legit :-)03:15
wolfspraulmaybe one day we can reactivate it again, I don't know, it's not my focus since mainly I believe in the gpl etc. to protect our works03:16
wolfspraulso the Qi Hardware Inc. is a very nice shell/umbrella for all community 'transactions' as you say...03:17
bartbesoh so that is where all tax evading is done? :P03:25
wolfspraulwpwrak: I added a note about our idea that serial and unique numbers should be documented and removable...03:33
wolfspraulwithout extending this to an epic text/philosophy now, I think it's clear for now and we can write a longer text later03:34
wolfspraulwpwrak: he OK. boom testsub doesn't help me with my 1M/250V resistor03:51
wolfspraulbecause my problem is not to see how the string is parsed or not, but to understand what kind of parsing result I should expect03:51
wolfspraulthere seems to be no voltage rating in resistors, only power (watts)03:52
wolfspraulI google a bit :-)03:53
wolfspraulaha http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/resistor/res_7.html03:56
wolfspraulP = (V*V)/R03:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: hmm. when I do this calculation my result is P = 250*250/1000000 = 0.062504:11
wolfspraulbut when I look up 1M 1206 resistors, there is not one below 0.125, most are 0.25W, some higher04:12
wolfspraulso maybe that's why Yanjun Luo first said the "/250V" rating would not be needed, in his experience (he said in 10+ years and lots of products he never needed it)04:13
wolfspraulbecause a 1M 1206 resistor will implicitly be able to hold up to 250V and higher anyway?04:13
wolfspraulwell, something may be wrong with my math of course. Let me know.04:13
nitin_guptaNN kernel is not stable04:14
nitin_guptagetting lot many problems while using it04:15
rafanitin_gupta: which kind of problems?05:19
cj101hi, is this a channel where i can get help with making a pcie card for my computer?06:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: resistors should have a V=... field in the characteristics07:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: you can't calculate P and V from each other. P depends on how quickly the heat can get out of the package. the smaller, the slower. V depends on how far the terminals are from each other, arcing and such.07:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: 1206 is probably big enough ... lemme check ...07:15
wpwrakhmm, tricky. panasonic and stackpole only go up to 200 V.07:17
wpwrakbut that's continuous voltage, not peak. i didn't record peak. maybe i should ...07:17
wpwrakthe higher-voltage resistors have their voltage encoded separately, so just the package doesn't tell the value. you could grep the .chr files for it, though07:19
wolfspraulYanjun Luo said this is totally unnecessary anyway :-)07:19
wpwrakso what changed his mind to put a voltage there in the first place ?07:20
wolfspraulyour comment in the TODO file07:22
wpwrakthe whole circuit is admittedly a little mysterious to me. what exactly is supposed to happen when there's a discharge into the shield ?07:22
wolfspraulafter I repeatedly pointed your comment out to him he basically said "if you want to change it go ahead, I don't care. It's not necessary anyway" :-)07:23
wolfspraulthe .chr files indeed show a V= value for the resistors07:23
wolfspraulwhy is my math so wrong?07:23
wpwrakah :) well, i was just commenting on the inconsistency. if it matters for the cap, it ought to matter for the R. unless you actually expect to arc over the R, which may or may not be the case.07:23
wolfspraulmaybe I just change it back, and done07:24
wpwrakbecause the math is about a different physical phenomenon07:24
wolfspraulwe have already made fully working boards, so this whole thing seems like a time-sink operation07:24
wolfspraulI just leave the 1206 footprint, and remove the /250V indicator07:25
wpwraki would like to understand how this circuit is supposed to behave. as opposed to, say, just connecting shield to the ground plane.07:25
wolfspraullet it match to the cheapest 1206 1M R resistor07:25
wpwrakit would have been such a nice way to exercise your .sub skills ;-)07:25
wolfspraulI will get to it, but the motivation must come from more valuable targets... (xue)07:26
wpwrakit's not *that* difficult :)07:26
wolfspraulnot from a jtag-serial board that we already know works, even with a 0402 resistor that is most likely even weaker07:26
wpwrakwell, it's ESD protection. did you ESD-test the board ?07:27
wolfspraulit's not difficult to parse and match fields, but I don't trust the meaning of the fields I am matching07:27
wolfsprauland as long as that's the case I hesitate to put some automatic matching in place that I will never question again in the future07:27
wolfspraulyou are not even sure about 'continuous' or 'peak' etc.07:27
wolfspraulin digikey there is no 'voltage' at all, only power (watts)07:28
wpwrakall the values in the .chr at the moment are continuous.07:28
wolfsprauldon't know what that means. maybe digikey is missing a field, maybe I don't understand what I'm dealing with :-)07:28
wolfspraullike I said, I will just leave 1206, because I think he changed the layout as well, and remove the /250V07:28
wolfsprauldone :-)07:28
wpwrakdigi-key don't put everything into their tables. i think you also don't have temperature coefficients.07:28
wolfspraulthey are there07:28
wolfspraulthe list is quite long for resistors, but no 'voltage'07:29
wpwrakah, okay07:29
wolfspraulsuspicious to me, given my large degree of cluelessness around this07:29
wpwrakanyway, if you look at the vendor data sheets, voltages are always there.07:29
wpwrakmaybe digi-key are afraid people will get confused and think they can just pick a sufficient voltage without looking at power.07:29
wpwrakmost of the time, power is what limits you, not voltage.07:30
wolfspraulif digikey doesn't even have it in their tables, for something as common as a 'resistor', then there must be more to it07:30
wolfspraulyeah, something like that :-)07:30
wolfspraulso I am not the right person to do the matching, let alone automatic matching07:30
wpwrakwell, you don't have to understand the deeper meaning to do the matching. neither does BOOM itself :)07:30
wolfspraulin all 1392 different 1206 resistors I have in my boom .chr, there is not one with V != 200V07:33
wolfspraulI will keep my fingers off the matching until I know what I'm doing, or until I can copy/paste from a known/proven/verified design.07:33
wpwrakbut i;m still curious why you need that circuit at all. in most designs i've seen, shield is just connected to ground. maybe incorrectly so. however, in some cases, you don't even have a choice. e.g., all common coax cables don't have a separate shield, so signal ground is protective ground. and it's certainly easy enough to touch the shield.07:34
wpwrakfootprint size is a very good indicator for voltage (also for power)07:34
wolfspraulsure, that's why I will leave the change from 0402 to 1206 that Yanjun made07:35
wpwrakso it's less about "making it work" but more about documenting it properly. if you specify the voltage, then it's clear what you're after.07:35
wolfspraulbut I remove the /250V indicator which creates this whole matching uncertainty, for unknown return value07:35
wpwrakyour logic doesn't quite add up, but i agree that the result will work :)07:36
wpwrakhmm, i shall refer to my holy book on circuit design for an answer to that riddle ...07:37
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: removed R16 /250V indicator until we are more clear http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/42f190907:39
wpwrakhmmm, the holy book agrees with not connecting directly in the case of non-RF, but suggests a choke or resistor instead of a capacitor. kinda the opposite. let's see if there's more in the in-depth chapters ...07:50
wpwrakwolfspraul: my holy book is more concerned with ground loops than with ESD effects on the shield. if making a connection at all, it suggests a bead. USB standard just mumbles something about consistency with accepted practices and regulatory standards, without offering any specific suggestions.08:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: intel suggest to simply tie the shell to the ground plane. http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/apps/msp/intrface/usb/emitest.pdf08:41
wolfspraulI have no opinion on any of this :-)08:42
wolfspraulalso I think there is no issue, I think we are just going in circles08:43
wolfspraulall fine08:43
wolfspraulboard works, designer is happy08:43
wolfspraulforget the 250V thing08:43
wpwrakwolfspraul:  so i do wonder where this RC circuit comes from. i've seen that the Ben has the same sort of setup.08:43
wolfspraulYanjun is super busy, I will hold my limited fire until I have something really pressing I need from him08:45
wolfspraulhe thinks this is good, we have made working boards - done08:46
wpwrakdid he also design the USB connection of the Ben ?08:46
wpwrakso there's a meme in the EE community, or at least in our corner of it. wonder where it comes from ... at least intel's docs have nothing that suggests this sort of setup09:01
wpwrakthe ben's is even a bit worse, because it has no bleed resistor. so i think that you could build up some high voltage differential between shield and the rest of the circuit. e.g., when the other end of the cable isn't connected to anything or if the shield is broken09:08
sujanhi, i've just copied nupdf to nanonote and when i tried to open the pdf file, it says cannot find config file, quitting... any suggestion? thanks10:59
qbjectsujan: Let me think. I know I had that problem too at first....11:03
sujanok thanks11:04
sujanfollowing the readme.. i just copied over but there is that issue11:04
qbjectTry using cd to get into the folder with nupdf in it, then select the PDF you want to read with an absolute path.11:05
qbjectso, in my case,11:05
qbjectcd /usr/share/nupdf11:06
qbject./nupdf /data/doc/thing_i_want_to_read.pdf11:06
qbjectsujan: any luck?11:08
sujani did that before and screen went blank11:08
sujanhaven't tried again11:09
qbjectHm. How long did it stay blank?11:11
sujanfew minutes11:11
sujanand i restarted11:11
heberthhola a todos!!12:18
kyakEntera de todos en este chat!!12:21
B_LizzardEntre dos Aguas12:21
B_LizzardIt's a Paco de Lucia song12:24
qbjectHola, heberth. Hablo solo ingles pero estoy feliz esta aqui.12:26
heberthqbject:  i don't spoke ingles12:27
qbjectheberth: hehe. Seremos amigos silencios12:30
heberthkristianpaul:  sera nuestro traductor12:31
heberthqbject: ^12:31
qbjectAnybody like William Gibson?14:07
qbjectSiENcE: I'm confused. Is nLove for BNN up to the same status as the Caanoo version?15:29
SiENcEqbject, please ask bartbes, i think he is doing the nlove version for bnn15:32
SiENcEi also compiled a dingux one...so you might try this?15:33
qbjectGotcha. THanks!15:33
SiENcEbut i dont know if dingux apps work on bnn15:33
qbjectSiENcE: Some do, and I've stolen some Dingux libs to make even more run.15:34
bartbesqbject: no, I haven't updated the makefile15:35
qbjectbartbes: Well I appreciate the time you and SiENcE have spent. Where would you announce if you did do that?15:38
SiENcEi have an strange issue with my toolchain. sometimes make doesn't find a code file. next i start make it finds the file. mh15:41
kanzurewhere did wolfgang get the money for the ben nanonote production runs?15:56
qbjectkanzure: I'm curious about that, too.15:57
qbjectHe's usually in here on the opposite side of the clock. Might just ask him directly.15:58
qbjectMaybe wpwrak knows.15:59
rafaanyone here have tested the wikireader plugin?15:59
kanzureqbject: will do.16:22
bartbesqbject: added it to my todo17:01
qbjectbartbes: eeeexcellent. thanks very much.17:03
wpwrakkanzure: (money) as far as i know, personal savings17:08
qbjectwpwrak: I assumed that he had prior electronics-manufacturing experience, given the smoothness that the Ben release has had, hardware-wise. Is that correct?17:10
kanzurei was thinking ben nanonote might have been leftover stuff from a previous gig?17:10
wpwrakqbject: oh yes. remember openmoko ? that's where he was before qihw.17:11
wpwrakkanzure: nope, it's based on a dictionary design that was commercialized by some chinese (?) company. wolfgang licensed it, made some changes, and had the company/companies that had made the dictionary produce it.17:13
wpwrakkanzure: that way, the usually quite high cost of just getting started (case design, prototypes, etc.) was saved.17:13
kanzurehow did he convince them to use a copyleft license?17:14
kanzurealso, please keep prepending kanzure: plz (i might miss messages otherwise)17:14
qbjectwpwrak: you were on openmoko too, right?17:16
wpwrakqbject: yup17:16
wpwrakkanzure: not everything of the ben is under an open license. e.g., we don't have the cad files. for the electronics, dunno. i also don't know how much of that was redone.17:17
kanzureah i see17:17
qbjectwpwrak: but it seems like he does have permission to reverse-engineer and modify.17:17
wpwrakqbject: yup. besides, i don't think people in china care about such things a lot :)17:18
qbjectwpwrak: Oh, that's a good point. I forget about Loongson. Nice that there is a society so confident of their own future success who still believe, essentially, in sharing.17:20
wpwrakqbject: maybe they just haven't had sufficient excess wealth for long enough to grow a large number of parasitic lawyers and lobbyists :)17:23
qbjectwpwrak: makes me wish I knew more about their pre-revolutionary society.17:24
wpwrak(catching up with the irc backlog from the last days ...)17:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: for presentations, why not use latex ?17:41
wpwrak(sharism in spanish) why not some spanglish ? "sharismo" ;)17:54
qbjectwpwrak: Well _I_ like it.18:10
qbjectwpwrak: reminds me of "charisma"18:12
qbjectwpwrak: and "fortissimo"18:20
wpwrakcharisma is a good association18:20
qbjectI agree.18:21
qbject(To be honest, "sharism" always seemed a bit...truncated to me.)18:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: latex right is nice i need learn it or get a friendly editor...22:40
rafakristianpaul: for standar texts like articles, papers, letters you just need to edit templates ;)23:00
rafakristianpaul: if you did some html doc before it is something similar : if you knoe <h1>tit</h1> <h2>tit2</h2> then in latex you can have something like \section{tit} \subsection{tit2}23:02
rafaif you knoe=if you know23:03
kristianpaulrafa: html yes i know23:03
kristianpaul(need get some templates)23:03
rafakristianpaul: check some examples.. I used pdflatex mydoc.tex to convert from latex to pdf directly23:04
rafakristianpaul: what do you need to write?23:04
kristianpaulrafa: as wpwrak pointed, presentation slides23:04
rafaconvert=pdf output from tex23:05
rafakristianpaul: ah.. there are a lot of examples or templates for that :)23:05
kristianpaullooking now23:06
rafakristianpaul: if you want I can give you an example :)23:07
kristianpaulrafa: well, :) yes23:08
kristianpaulhahah i saw this before http://www.pctex.com/kb/64.html23:08
rafakristianpaul: do you have pdflatex installed?23:08
rafakristianpaul: ah.. nice you found one23:09
kristianpaul(trying to find the pdflates in debian)23:10
rafakristianpaul: if you have Debian you will find pdflatex installing the texlive-latex-base package23:11
kristianpaulah is already installed :)23:12
rafakristianpaul: already installed: faster than to install :)23:19
kristianpaulrafa: yes23:20
Action: kristianpaul off bed tommorrow going to the lab23:32
--- Sat Oct 30 201000:00

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