#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2010-10-24

wolfspraulwpwrak: my report about case insensitive matching in the field contents or part number matching was wrong. no need to investigate. sorry I was confused about a few things, but it's all clear now and all those comparisons are case sensitive.03:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: in boom/README, line 145, I think the two columns are flipped. The KiCad field name is 'Footprint' and the boom field name is 'FP'.04:47
viricwpwrak: yes, I think so. Total success05:08
viricwpwrak: if I could read the program in the f321, would that be through usb, or there are some serial lines to do that?05:08
viricwpwrak: my previous attepmts at rev-engineering the usb protocol were troubles with linux < 2.6.21, that did not have a system (without patching) that captured *whole* frames. in the 2.6.35 I use I could do that. And luckily wireshark handles very well USB, and I did not have to solve the usb frames directly from usbmon.05:10
viricDid ever someone here play with the con tiki OS?05:34
viricand, for the nanonote, is there anywhere the distribution of the cost on the device parts?05:37
viricso, something like 30% the plastic case, 15% the microcontroller, 10% the screen, ...05:37
wolfspraulviric: very hard to say because you cannot break these numbers down to 1 unit05:41
wolfspraulthe tooling costs way over 50,000 USD05:41
wolfspraula very rough BOM I would say maybe 40 USD total05:42
viricuhm I don't understand those terms. 'tooling'? BOM?05:42
wolfspraulif you want to make 10,000, you can probably get it done for 400,000 USD05:42
wolfsprauloh sorry05:42
wolfspraulthen even more so, explain to me what you want to do?05:42
wolfspraulif you want to make 1 NanoNote yourself, figure thousands of USD :-)05:42
viricno no.05:42
viricIt was just curiosity05:42
wolfspraulif you want to make 10,000, like I said maybe 40 USD / unit, well, for the first 10K maybe 50 USD / unit with all the things that will go wrong.05:43
viricI realized that I have no idea where its price comes from.05:43
wolfspraulwell the more you dig in the more the prices 'disappear'05:43
wolfspraulbut that's because you are skipping over companies that you will need if you really want to do it05:43
wolfspraulthe CPU costs maybe 3 USD05:43
viricbut there has to be someone having done a process that leads towards the current price05:43
wolfspraulyes sure05:44
viricIs that written somewhere?05:44
wolfspraulno, just gut feeling and I believe we can get things started this way05:44
viricSo, I know a bit electronics, a bit programming, assembling, ... but I know very little on the 'production' side.05:44
viricI thought that if I could see an open process about that, I'd learn something.05:45
wolfspraulah yes05:45
wolfspraulthen you are right here :-)05:45
viric:)05:45
wolfspraulso there are multiple moving pieces05:45
wolfspraulwe started with the Ben NanoNote where a number of normal (closed) companies are helping us05:45
wolfspraulthat's so that we have some 'gravity' that pulls the project around real user needs05:45
wolfspraulnow we are using both that user gravity, as well as our copyleft goals, to move things forward05:46
wolfspraulso we are building out the server infrastructure, we started to co-work with Milkymist, there is hacking going on around the case, GPS, RF, etc.05:46
viricaha05:46
wolfspraulwell it's a lot, and these things all belong/fit together but admittedly a bit hard to see05:47
viricI imagine.05:47
viricSo you don't have much meetings with slides, pie charts, and all that? :D05:47
wolfspraulso unless you are very patient (which the people buying a NanoNote or even in this channel mostly are), I think it will only become more succesful if we can make some really cool/different products.05:47
wolfspraulah no [slides]05:47
wolfspraulscratch that05:47
wolfspraul:-)05:47
virichehe05:47
viricwhat on the investors?05:48
wolfspraulno investors, just savings and time donations05:48
viricgreat.05:48
wolfspraulthe best advise I got on this project was "earn your way"05:48
wolfsprauladvice05:48
wolfspraulso I follow that advice05:48
viricok05:49
viricI may some day engage in all this.05:49
wolfspraulwonderful05:49
viricWhat I do now I consider "not engaged in it" :)05:49
viricThank you for your time05:50
wolfspraulviric: if you are using an RSS reader, consider to add our new feed http://en.qi-hardware.com/feed/rss20.xml05:50
wolfspraulah of course [time]05:50
wolfspraulthanks for showing up here and chatting...05:50
viricI wrote mine RSS reader for the nanonote ;)05:50
viricdistributed to work offline05:51
wolfsprauloh wow05:51
viricIt works over the fossil dvcs05:51
viric10 lines of php script05:51
viric+ fossil + fbterm (for proper unicode fonts) + lynx05:51
viricnot any magic.05:52
viricbut 1 hour was enough to get it working.05:52
wolfspraulhas this been integrated/commited into the openwrt-packages repository already?05:52
viricuh... it's even not a program apart. I have no relationship with openwrt05:52
viricI do all with nix05:52
virichttp://hydra.nixos.org/jobset/nixpkgs/cross-stdenv  <= this cross builds packages for some systems with our "nixpkgs cross building system". It builds fine for the nanonote too.05:53
viricwolfspraul: do you know 'fossil'? If you know, you will understand the whole rss system at once. If not, then it will be harder.05:54
wolfspraulno I don't know05:54
viricwell, it's a distributed version control system, where some actions you do with command line (as svn, git, ...), and for some others it has a small web server, and then you do the tasks with a web browser.   It has not only distributed version control of code, but also wiki, ticket system, ...    Then I wrote a php script that fetches feeds and writes them in 'wiki files', than then the usual fossil webserver will serve nice for lynx to browse.05:56
viric10 lines. No magic. Nothing that even can be integrated in any distribution, I guess. :)05:56
virichttp://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/cgi-bin/rss/login    you can check mine   (get in anonymous, and browse the wiki)05:57
wolfspraulinteresting05:58
viricSo I can write "fossil pull" from the nanonote (once connected to my PC), and I get all the feeds up to date.05:58
viricThen I go reading with the nanonote. It's what I mainly do with it - read RSS.05:58
viricThis is the only code I wrote (the php part): http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/cgi-bin/rss/artifact?name=03dc1bcbd94ae9f7b0ab34174533fde8b930ef7505:59
viricwolfspraul: so it's more about putting things together and using them together, than having a program named 'distributed RSS reader'.06:00
viricwolfspraul: as you see, I have that in a web server. So I can read the same from a computer with internet access (browsing to my server page), with my PC (that has a copy of the repository synchronizable), or with the nanonote, that can be synchronized with the PC.  Three places of reading.06:01
viricI imagine everyone does whatever he likes to, with the nanonote :) wpwrak makes boards and boards for it. hehe06:02
viricwpwrak: using the sdio as a serial line with gpio userland controlled, what speeds did you achieve?06:21
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: changed C16 from 480pF to more common 470pF http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/f6f8f5c07:09
B_LizzardWith sound enabled, shouldn't the /dev/snd devices be populated via udev?07:16
viricB_Lizzard: I think so.07:20
B_LizzardUgh, they're not in 2.6.32 and not in 2.6.3607:29
B_LizzardHmmm, I'm using udev 12407:30
B_LizzardLatest is udev 16407:30
B_LizzardLemme try with a newer udev version07:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: (case sensitive match works as intended) thanks !07:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: (FP) fixed. thanks !07:40
wpwrakviric: (usb analysis) maybe you could wire a post about this. the process could be interesting for others too07:41
wpwrakviric: (sdio speed) i didn't measure the peak thoughtput. i tested a 1 pin toggle and got about 1 MHz. so expect something like 300-500 kHz for SPI-like one-way data. maybe 200-300 kHz for SPI-like bidirectional07:42
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: package building fix: do not run postinst image update on host http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/89d817b07:55
viricwpwrak: http://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/soft/pce/07:56
viric500kHz? that looks great07:56
B_LizzardWould using udev 124 potentially be a problem like that?08:00
B_LizzardEverything else is created normally08:00
viricB_Lizzard: no idea08:01
B_LizzardI'll ask larsc once he comes in08:01
B_LizzardI'm sure he's tired of me by now but I must try08:01
qi-bot[commit] David Kühling: revert some package debugging stuff that accidentally got committed http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7b2073608:03
wpwrakviric: that url gives me unknown host08:09
viricuhm08:09
viricit's dyndns08:09
virichm I also get that.08:10
viricbad.08:10
dandonhello08:31
dandonany laptop users? would go with Dell Inspiron 15R?08:31
logictheoI have a netbook.08:38
viricwpwrak: It looks like my free dyndns domain expired *TODAY*. I just payed for renewal.08:38
viricwpwrak: I had it almost 8 years....08:38
viricwpwrak: it should work now.08:40
viricwpwrak: you were the first to notice the domain disappeared.08:41
wpwraknice ! maybe link to a place that explains how to watch usb with wireshark (if there's one) ? also, what doesn't work with VIA ? the usb device or just the monitoring in qemu ?08:42
wpwrak(first to notice) yeah, the bugs flock to me ;-)08:43
viricwpwrak: http://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB08:43
viricwpwrak: I think I'll put you in the 'thanks' list, helping me with the chips. What is your naem?08:44
viricname08:44
wpwraki didn't do much :) my name is Werner Almesberger08:45
viricwpwrak: I wrote to the manufacturers of the PCE device, so they may want to mention that "it may work on Linux too with this".08:45
viricI have a coworker named Werner08:45
wpwrak(wireshark) nice ! didn't know it was that easy08:45
wpwrak(manuf) hehe, "and, by the way, your secret protocol is no secret anymore" ;-)08:46
wpwrakah, it's not a very common name08:46
viricah, I don't think they will care. It's really really simple, and there is little magic on the PC software. All the hard parts are on the mcu.08:46
viricwpwrak: are you rumanian/hungarian/german at once, like my coworker? :)08:47
wpwrakhmm .. now an electrical engineering puzzle: i have a 50 Ohm transmission line, about 1-2 m long. my termination is something like 1 MOhm, and i can't just toss in a resistive divider because i need to (more or less) preserve the amplitude. the signal is aperiodic. if there *anything* i can do ? :)08:48
viricyou can't change the termination?08:49
viricwell, you want to adapt it to the line I guess.08:49
wpwrakviric: uh, at least two generations deep austrian, i think. then it gets a bit scattered. austria, germany, czech republic (but that was austria too, back then)08:50
wpwrakhow do i change the termination without loss of amplitude or messing up my aperiodic signal ? :)08:50
viriclet me take my notes on transmission lines08:51
wpwrakif i add a 50 R to GND, the signal is beautiful, but too weak08:51
wpwrakif i add an impedance matching network, the signal is beautiful too, but only if periodic08:51
wpwrak(well, beautiful in qucs. you never know what may happen in real life ;-)08:52
viricwhat is qucs?08:52
wpwraka cicuit simulator. think spice minus the painkillers08:53
viric:)08:53
wpwrakwell, or spice but after the invention of fire, wheel ;-)08:53
wpwrakqucs is great. its schematics editor is even easier to use than kicad :)08:54
viricI'm going back to what I once knew about lines...08:56
viricthe impedance of the line is mostly capacitive08:56
viricaround the frequency of your signal08:57
viricright?08:57
viricuhm, both capacitive and inductive.08:58
viricI think the 50Ohm are defined at a specificed signal frequency.08:58
viricHow do you write the transmission line in that 'qucs'?08:59
wpwraki put a transmission line symbol, with Z=50 Ohm and L=2000 mm08:59
dandonhm i didn't really look xD ^^. Dell Inspiron 15R classifies as notebook?08:59
dandon*netbook08:59
wpwraknot sure about frequency dependency of the characteristics imedance09:00
Action: dandon dell.com09:00
wpwraki thought it wasn't frequency dependent (of course, all the rest usually is)09:00
viricwpwrak: so, you need to know a model of a transmission line, and use capacitors and inductances to adapt it09:00
wpwrakyes, that's what i'm trying to do :)09:00
viricSo, Z_0 = sqrt(L/C)09:01
virichttp://vicerveza.homeunix.net/~viric/oldcomps/docs/apunts-riog.pdf09:02
viricpage 12 of the PDF09:02
wpwrakso you would put an LC low-pass filter ?09:03
wpwraki tried that - with a quite horribly distorted signal09:03
viricwpwrak: there is also about 'adapting lines'09:04
viricpage 23 has a problem about it09:05
viricexplained in page 2109:05
viricso you need a 'coefficient of transmission' of 1:   tau = Gv(1 + rho)09:07
wpwraki guess now i'm really confused ;-)09:09
virichehe. Well, it does not look easy :)09:09
viricwpwrak: for what I understood so far, it looks like unfeasible09:13
viricwpwrak: Ah, page 35 of the PDF has an example of "adapting to an arbitrary load of the line"09:17
viricwpwrak: you need to add a transmission line (or equivalent) with the impedance there written: Z_0' = sqrt(R_L * Z_0) = sqrt(1M * 50)09:18
wpwrakadd a transmission line. interesting. let's see what happens ...09:20
viricIt has to be a transmission line of lambda\409:21
viriclambda/409:21
viric(here the frequency of the signal comes in)09:21
viricSo, L = lambda/4, and impedance of the line = 7071 Ohm09:22
viricwhat does qucs say?09:22
wpwrakhmm, at 10 MHz that would be 5 m :)09:23
viricCan't believe09:23
viricah. maybe.09:23
viric27Mhz = 11m waves09:23
viricwpwrak: try in the simulator09:23
wpwrakand the signal looks even unhealthier than before09:24
viricoh.09:24
viriccan you know the transmission line model of qucs?09:24
viricis the signal narrowband?09:25
viricaround a conveying wave? I don't renember the usual english name09:25
wpwrakit gets better if i reduce it to 1 m. but then the first few periods are heavily attenuated. so i guess it's once again something that only works for periodic signals09:25
wpwrak(model) uh, there is the source ... but the math will probably be well above my head ;)09:26
viricok09:26
wpwrakthe signal is DC-~6 MHz09:26
viricthere are adaptors that will work perfectly at a fixed periodic wave09:26
wpwraksquare wave09:26
wpwrakoh yes, periodic is very easy :)09:26
viricSquare wave does not have a very good spectrum :)09:26
viricSo, it means you have a broadband signal09:27
viricFrom 0 to 6MHz as minimum09:28
wpwrakyup09:28
wpwraki have a comparator i could use to restore a signal that went though a resistive divider, but .... the comparator only works up to ~ 2 MHz.09:29
viricok09:29
viricIf you had a 50Ohm load, you think it allows broadband ?09:30
viricI'd say it also does not allow that.09:30
wpwrakhm, why not ?09:31
viricgrr my notes don't have anything about bandwidth. It's all thought for a carrier signal.09:33
viric(I guess)09:33
wpwrakwhat i'm dealing with here are digital signals. it's for a frequency counter. (ben-wpan/cntr)09:34
viricI think the equivalent of the circuit is an L-C-R circuit as what you saw, with L and C depending on the length of the line09:34
wpwrakso i have a relatively low-impedance source, then my 50 Z transmission line, and the MCU's very high-Z counter input09:34
viricso the length of the line, even if you have an adapted load, is important in all that.09:34
viric(maybe not :D)09:35
wpwrakif you match the impedance, the line length shouldn't matter09:35
wpwrakit's only if you don't have a match that the line length shows up in the form of nice little reflections :)09:35
viricyes.09:36
viricso, you see that I have little idea. Sorry! :)09:40
viricfor me, your signal looks too broadband to get all working.09:40
viricI even don't think you can consider the load impedance resistive09:40
viricwhat makes you think so?09:40
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added BOOKSHELF http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/f073fa809:41
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: BOOKSHELF update http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/28edd2509:41
wolfspraulwpwrak: I've finished the boomification of the jtag-serial cable for now09:41
wolfspraulit works, generates a digikey shopping list09:41
wolfspraulif you have any feedback let me know, I probably bastardized your beautiful system quite badly :-)09:42
wolfsprauleverything but resistors and basic capacitors is just directly linked to digikey order numbers09:42
wolfspraulbut still, I think I get the whole system now and looking forward to slowly improving my usage of it09:43
wpwrak(directly link to dk) that's the way i do it too :)09:43
wolfspraulI do not plan to fpedize the one module in there right now, so many other priorities. maybe a bit later.09:43
wolfspraulalso I added a little BOOKSHELF file, seems nice09:43
wolfspraulso I will probably move to generating gerbers and files for smt next, maybe not immediately but soon I think09:44
wolfspraulright now the gerbers are committed into git, not sure whether that's a good idea09:44
wolfspraulif the server could automatically create such 'fabrication outputs' and archive them somehow that would be neat09:45
wolfspraulwell anyway, boom bottom line: GREAT! works today, and I see huge potential09:45
wpwrak(works) congratulations !09:46
wolfspraulwith all the things I learnt with the cable, I feel ready to jump into a bigger project like xue and help there, boomify stuff, clean kicad fields, extend fully characterized matching to more types, etc.09:46
wpwrakkewl ;-)09:47
wolfspraulyeah it's really cool. just make clean show KITS=5009:47
wpwrakbtw, you can avoid/reduce the orgy of .sub value changes09:47
wolfspraulwell I know I can make it all a lot smoother, it was just an exercise...09:48
wpwrakthe way to do it would be to define an equvalence for the vendor part to the digi-key part, with the same part number as in the schematics. that way, you don't need to go via the "private" equivalence and you don't need to tweak the value09:48
wolfspraulyou mean the value?09:49
wolfspraulsure the only thing I do now is to add a UJS_ prefix09:49
wpwrak(make clena) or copy over the "again" target that i have in my BOM Makefiles09:49
wolfspraulthe important thing is to add more types of parts, more distis, more manufacturers09:50
wolfspraulso I was just playing this time...09:50
wolfspraulanyway, it works! congratulations!09:50
wolfspraulI see a bright future for boom :-)09:51
wpwrakkewl. just generated the BOM too :)09:52
viricwhat does bom mean?09:53
wpwrakit didn't pick anything overly crazy. the 4.7 uF cap is a bit cheap (Y5V), but usually acceptable09:54
wolfspraulhe09:54
wolfspraulI even bypassed the 'exercise' with the 250V cap09:54
wolfsprauljust a direct link, lazy me...09:54
wpwrakyeah :) the challenge of getting deeper into substitutions still lies ahead of you :)09:55
wolfspraulah I have a question about that 4.7nF/250V cap09:55
wolfspraulwell the substitutions as a programmatic challenge are totally no problem to me09:55
wolfspraulthe problem is to understand what the hell I am dealing with09:56
wolfspraulto me these are all just 'variables'09:56
wpwrak;-))09:56
wolfspraulbut without some EE background it makes no sense for me to juggle with these variables09:56
wolfspraulI would just generate bloat.09:56
wolfspraulthe point is to not over-specify09:56
wpwrakwhat i still need to add is an more straightforward debug mode for .sub substitutions. for .gen, i have one, but not for .sub. and it's kinda painful to manually trim the bom for testing09:56
wpwrakyes, once things are a bit more stable and friendly, it'll be a good time to get some input from people who know something about EE :)09:57
wolfspraulso for the 4.7nF/250V... I found these two09:58
wolfspraulhttp://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=445-2333-1-ND09:58
wpwrakbut that will probably be after a rewrite to C. the current perl stuff is reaching its limits.09:58
wolfspraulhttp://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=478-5605-1-ND09:58
wolfspraulone has a 5% tolerance, C0G, NP009:59
wolfspraulthe other one 10% tolerance, X7R09:59
wolfspraulprice about the same09:59
wolfspraulwhich one would you choose?09:59
wpwrakhmm. don't know really. none of the main differences between c0g and x7r matter here10:01
wpwrakhere, you'd be more concerned with overvoltake tolerance10:01
wpwrakovervoltaGe10:01
wolfspraulyou mean the 250V? but it's the same10:03
wpwraki mean what happens if you go over 250 V :)10:03
wpwrak(briefly)10:03
wolfspraulbtw haven't tried it yet. can I upload that prettified shopping list to digikey?10:04
wolfsprauldo they have some standard format?10:04
wpwrakbtw, you could use this one: 490-3532-1-ND10:07
wpwraksmaller and cheaper10:07
wpwrakthey have some bom upload but i haven't used it yet10:07
wpwrakif the pretty list was compatible with it, that would be extreme coincidence :)10:08
wpwrakor if you want 1206, try 445-4484-1-ND. that one is even good for up to 630 V :-)10:08
wolfspraultolerance 20%, is that still oK?10:10
wpwrakof course, if you teach boom to recognize *F/*V, then you don't even need me to look up parts ;-) hint: tell boom that the voltage is >= the specified value10:11
wolfspraulyes yes, I know :-)10:11
wpwraki don't think the exact capacitance matters here. i think 4.7 nF is very very generous already10:11
wolfspraulOK but I won't touch it, no need to get burnt.10:13
wpwrakoh, and you can get 10% for the same price :) 445-2290-1-ND10:13
wolfspraulso with this little boom lesson, I think the next target for boom for me is xue10:13
wolfspraulfor ben-wpan, I'm sure you will do it yourself already10:13
wolfspraulfor xue, I believe I can help move things in that direction10:13
wpwrak(ben-wpan) of course :)10:14
wolfspraulwpwrak: how do you feel about committing gerber files into git?10:14
wolfspraul(different subject)10:14
wpwrakit's ugly10:15
wpwrakthere is a more general problem, though: how do we deal with generated files that are hard to generate (but that may also be troublesome to have in git, e.g., because of size)10:15
wpwrakone approach would be to have two projects: one with the sources, one with generated stuff10:16
wpwrakthat's kinda how i run things with the case scans10:16
wpwraki haven't quite figured out a strategy for the boom database, where we'll have the same problem10:17
wpwrakmaking generating gerber easier would be nice. since it's in the same plot dialog as postscript, anyone who makes that possible could also solve the postscript problem -> one step closer to brdhist :)10:19
wpwrakso if you feel like visiting the sewers of C++ ... :)10:20
Guest5862wpwrak: ah yes I see it (the dialog in pcbnew)10:47
Guest5862big :-)10:47
Guest5862why am I called Guest...? :-)10:47
wpwrakbig and deep10:47
Guest5862deep? even sub-dialogs?10:48
B_LizzardShouldn't devices exist in /sys regardless of their status in /dev?10:48
Guest5862"Save Options" in a dialog, argh. Is that what I think it is?10:48
wpwraki meant deep in the code. not something easily called from the outside.10:48
wpwrakGuest5862: (save options) don't worry, it doens't really work anyway ;-)10:49
Guest5862he. without the undue burden of trying to send patches upstream, all code paths shall be shallow :-)10:49
Guest5862even in the C++ mess, a few globals can do wonders10:49
wpwrak:-)10:50
wpwrakhave you looked at the code yet ?10:50
Guest5862no10:50
Action: wpwrak gets the pop corn10:50
Guest5862but I am very very optimistic on that end. you don't know how cruel I can be to software aesthetics.10:50
Guest5862anyway we see. I'm not sure when I can get to it but automating server-side generated files is definitely something I want to do soon.10:51
Guest5862so in general you say the goal should be to not commit gerbers, at least not in the primary design repository10:52
wpwrakhaving command-line driven output would also make it much easier to generate local files10:52
wpwrakplus, if you can tweak the settings inthe process, also useful things like mirrored front sides for toner transfer could be automated10:53
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: defconfig update http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/43947c310:53
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: Revert "dma sg" http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/562725210:53
wpwrakyes, i'd try to avoid committing gerbers10:53
wpwrakalso because they'd add a lot of commit noise10:54
wpwrakand if you change something but don't generate gerbers afterwards, you may even commit stale versions10:54
wpwrakand so on. lots of problems10:54
B_LizzardThanks for that, larsc10:55
wpwrakviric: what probably works is an NPN transistor. Rbase = 50 R :)11:16
viricwpwrak: ah, good one :)11:23
viricbut where those 50R come from?11:23
wpwraki mean: i put a 50 R resistor there :)11:24
viricahh11:24
viricdid you simulate?11:24
viricthe base will have a very small current11:24
viricand that may end up being a weird impedance then11:24
viricshort-circuit or open-circuit reflect a lot11:24
viricunless Rbase is parallel with the transistor11:25
wpwrakthe base will draw whatever it gets11:26
wpwrakRbase is in serie11:26
viricah, sorry. I think I was imaging MOSFET.11:26
wpwrakit's an BJT, not a FET :)11:27
viricsure.11:27
wpwrakyup :)11:27
viricso the simulation looks good?11:28
wpwrakyup. very good11:28
viricgreat... so it really has wide bandwidth once adapted :)11:28
viricI have to learn that qucs11:28
viricI'll package it11:28
wpwraki need a non-zero capacitance at the input or noise could make the transistor charge the parasitic capacitance at the collector. if course, parasitic capacitance at the base takes care of this anyway.11:29
viricyou draw a common emmiter ?11:30
wpwrakqucs is great. you'll love it11:30
wpwrakcommon emitter ? you mean NPN.E = GND ? yes11:30
viricyou brought me into kicad already...11:30
viricyes.11:30
viricdoes it need freehdl?11:31
wpwrakit says it can read vhdl and verilog11:32
viricok11:32
viricI'll try to build it11:33
viricwpwrak: is qucs made for qt3? I can't believe... but its configure script looks like wanting it.11:50
wpwrakldd says libqt-mt.so.311:53
viricclear.11:53
virichere I go building then.11:53
lisandropmviric: you have caneda, wich is a kind of qucs fork, done with qt411:56
lisandropmcurrently it needs some more details, but upstream is alive ;)11:56
viricohh11:56
viriclink?11:57
lisandropmjust a second11:57
viriccaneda.sf.net I see11:57
Action: lisandropm must fill the IT in debian too11:57
viricno files released...11:57
lisandropm*itp11:57
viricthere are no commits in the caneda.sf.net git11:58
lisandropmviric: http://caneda.tuxfamily.org/index.php?title=Main_Page11:58
lisandropmthe code is hosted in tuxfamily11:58
lisandropmI don't know why11:59
wpwraklisandropm: (caneda) interesting. why did they fork ?12:01
viricok12:02
viriclisandropm: the qucs mainpage mentions qucs-qt4 in cvs12:02
lisandropmafaik, original upstream was very conservative on multiple things, like keeping autotools for building qt12:02
lisandropmviric: the same guy who started the port went later into caneda (again, afaik)12:02
lisandropmit seems they are integrating µelectronics in caneda too12:03
wpwraki see layout. kewl :)12:03
viricok12:03
viriclisandropm: caneda has no released versions12:04
lisandropmno :-(12:04
lisandropmwip ;)12:04
viricusable?12:05
lisandropmstill haven't tested it too much12:05
wpwrakit's a little odd that the caneda page doesn't mention qucs.12:05
lisandropmI'm not much into designs :-/12:05
lisandropmwpwrak: indeed12:05
viricqucs works here already.12:07
lisandropmthen keep qucs ;)12:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added (partially incorrect, see INFO) footprint of F MMCX board edge connector http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6668a6d12:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cntr/term/term.sch: simulation of impedance-matched termination circuit http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/417654112:09
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: boom/manu/Makefile.common: rm -f is enough, no need for -rf http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/fa2190012:11
viriclisandropm: I'll try to package caneda12:11
lisandropmviric: debian package? I was filling the ITP already12:12
lisandropmviric: of course, if you want, we can co maintain it :)12:12
viricno, not debian12:13
lisandropmthen go ahead ;)12:14
viriclisandropm: caneda does not build here. moc_mainwindow.cxx:188: error: call of overloaded 'QString(int)' is ambiguous12:16
lisandropmplease report the bug (I don't know if they have a bugtracker yet :-/ )12:17
viricI tried with qt4.7. I'll try with qt4.612:17
viriclisandropm: I'll send it by mail to the main committer12:18
lisandropmgo ahead :)12:18
lisandropmviric: I am just a friend of one of the commiters (Pablo Pareja), I am not part of the project12:19
lisandropmplease send feedback to the project members :)12:19
viricwhere are you from?12:20
lisandropmargentina12:21
kristianpauloh12:21
kristianpaulhola12:21
viricah nice.12:21
B_Lizzardlarsc, some feedback on 2.6.36 using your latest defconfig12:21
lisandropmkristianpaul: hola :)12:21
B_LizzardI'm having some issues with the battery readings12:21
kristianpaullisandropm: jlime users btw? :)12:21
kristianpauluser*12:21
lisandropmno :-)12:21
viricsos macanudos!12:22
Action: lisandropm doesn't even knows what jlime is :)12:22
lisandropmviric: :)12:22
B_Lizzarddmesg reports "power_supply battery: driver failed to report 'voltage_now' property12:22
B_LizzardTrying to cat /sys/class/power_supply/voltage_now says "Connection timed out"12:23
kristianpaullisandropm: www.jlime.com (may be the answer to your problems ;))12:23
kristianpaulcause deian in the nanonote is kinda slow i think12:23
lisandropmkristianpaul: didn't know about it. I just used OE for the devices we develop at my job (because of inheritance)12:24
larscB_Lizzard: could you do a `cat /proc/interrupts`?12:24
B_LizzardAm I looking for something or do you want the entire file?12:25
B_LizzardI'll also give you a copy of dmesg12:25
larscthe entire file would be good12:25
B_LizzardSure thing sir12:25
B_LizzardI still don't get any messages at boot aside from the initial kernel printks, also. Could be my environment, but it worked for 2.6.32 so who knows.12:26
kristianpaullisandropm: good !12:27
kristianpaullisandropm: try it and tell us what youn think, btw there is #jlime channel too12:28
B_LizzardOK, /proc/interrupts: http://pastebin.com/mS9dBTCr12:28
viriclisandropm: builds with qt 4.612:28
B_Lizzarddmesg: http://pastebin.com/6DU7C4Ev12:29
lisandropmkristianpaul: sorry, but at this time it would be impossible :-(12:29
B_LizzardThere's some weird output there too12:29
B_LizzardALSA is also doing some weird stuff12:29
larscB_Lizzard: hm thats interesting the battery generates interrupts, but the adc reading still times out12:29
lisandropmviric: no surprise. Most of (if not all) the developers use Debian in their machines, and we have Qt 4.6 (4.7 is not even relaed yet)12:30
lisandropm*released12:30
kristianpaulok12:30
larschm... "Unbalanced enable for IRQ 185"12:30
viriclisandropm: qt47 is not relased1?12:32
viric!?12:32
lisandropmnot afaik ;)12:32
Action: lisandropm checks12:32
viricI think it is12:32
viricat least from one or two months12:32
B_LizzardThis is upstream 2.6.36 with those patches and the defconfig I got from projects.qi-hardware12:33
lisandropmiric: sorry, I probably got confused with12:33
larscB_Lizzard: could you build your kernel with KALLSYMS_ALL=y so we see the function names in the stack trace?12:33
lisandropm4.7.112:33
B_Lizzardlarsc, sure12:33
B_LizzardWould that be CONFIG_KALLSYMS?12:35
B_LizzardOK, rebuilding, should be 10 minutes or so.12:35
larscCONFIG_KALLSYMS  and CONFIG_KALLSYMS_ALL12:36
B_LizzardOK, thanks12:36
larscwell, maybe CONFIG_KALLSYMS is enough12:37
larscyes, i think its enough12:37
B_LizzardI used your previous defconfig which i modified for CONFIG_BATTERY_JZ4740 and it worked, as far as I can remember12:37
B_LizzardCould be something you removed?12:38
B_LizzardUnless this is something that takes time to surface12:38
viriclisandropm: do you use caneda?  I'll try to guess where to install the components. I can't find it in the docs12:39
lisandropmviric: no, but ask Pablo Pareja Obregón parejaobregon at gmail.com12:40
B_LizzardI did reboot several times and it was the same thing every time12:40
lisandropmwhile I am an electronic enginnerr, I prefer to do sfotware stuff ;)12:40
lisandropm*software12:41
viricah found it. It's the first thing it complained about, running it ;)12:41
larscB_Lizzard: i don't think that it is realted to the other config changes12:43
B_LizzardWell, me neither, I thought I'd just mention it.12:44
viriclisandropm: you prefer doing software with electronics, over doing electronics with software, I see12:47
B_LizzardALSA is giving me some crap too, volume changes in alsamixer don't seem to affect the actual output volume, /dev/dsp is invalid at 14:3 (which I think is the correct major-minor address12:47
viricB_Lizzard: do you have the sound part as module or in kernel?12:48
viricI remember seeing a difference in that12:48
B_LizzardI think it's in kernel12:48
B_LizzardWait12:48
viricbut I don't remember what difference.12:48
viric(I talk about jz-2.6.35)12:49
B_LizzardYeah, in kernel, as specified in the 2.6.36 defconfig from projects.qi-hardware12:49
viricand it worked for you in 2.6.35?12:49
B_Lizzardit worked in 2.6.3212:51
B_LizzardWith the qi-kernel12:51
viricsound works for me in 2.6.3512:52
virictoo loud, but works12:53
viricalsamixer and mpg123 work.12:53
B_LizzardHmmm, battery readings seem OK now...12:58
B_LizzardBad build or unstable driver?12:59
B_LizzardI'll wait12:59
qi-bot[commit] Axel Lin: mfd: Fix jz4740_adc_set_enabled http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/fa4e9d613:00
qi-bot[commit] Axel Lin: jz4740-battery: Add missing kfree(jz_battery) in jz_battery_remove() http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/6816d6613:00
larscB_Lizzard: it could very well be a race somewhere.13:01
B_LizzardI'll reboot a couple of times, charge it up a bit13:01
B_LizzardSee if that changes anything13:01
larscB_Lizzard: can you upload your kernel System.map?13:01
B_LizzardSure thing13:01
B_LizzardWait a sec13:09
lisandropmviric: I just prefer software ;) I am currently writing a driver, but I must admit I love to do GUIs ;)13:10
B_Lizzardlarsc, I uploaded it to pastebin, http://pastebin.com/dpqH5RHJ13:13
B_LizzardI can upload the real file if that's unworkable13:14
B_LizzardIn raw format13:15
B_Lizzardhttp://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=dpqH5RHJ13:15
viriclisandropm: caneda packaged13:15
lisandropmviric: good :) may I ask for wich distro?13:15
viricNixOS13:15
lisandropmfirst time I read babout it :)13:16
larscB_Lizzard: hm, the symbols dont match the addresses anymore, could you build a kernel form the defconfig and paste System.map then?13:18
B_LizzardOh, that's from the KALLSYMS build13:19
B_LizzardThe previous pastebins are from the previous build13:19
B_LizzardSorry bout that, wait a sec.13:19
B_LizzardI'll paste dmesg and interrupts when I get a backtrace13:22
larscok13:22
B_LizzardSorry bout that, I accidentally deleted my sources before :/13:24
B_LizzardAny ideas on the ALSA issues?13:39
larscnope13:41
B_LizzardShouldn't 14:3 be right for /dev/dsp?13:45
larsci have no idea13:47
viricon x86 I have 14:313:47
larscbut isn't /dev/dsp oss?13:47
viricyes13:47
B_LizzardIt should be provided by alsa's OSS emulation13:47
larscit's not enabled in the defconfig13:49
B_LizzardUgh, maybe I'm a moron. CONFIG_SOUND_OSS_CORE is off in defconfig13:49
B_LizzardI was pretty sure it was on13:49
B_LizzardThat would be CONFIG_SND_PCM_OSS13:50
B_LizzardThe console keymap is missing the red and blue keys too13:54
larscyes. thats certainly something that should be handeld by userspace and not by the kernel13:55
B_LizzardWell, aren't good defaults important?13:57
B_LizzardAs the hardware layout is unlikely to change13:58
B_LizzardOtherwise I see no issues, great work on 2.6.3614:01
larscwell, changing the default kernel keymap wont make it upstream14:02
B_LizzardOh, I thought you could do per-target keymaps14:03
B_LizzardSorry, you are completely right then.14:03
viricreally? aren't there keymaps per target?14:15
viricThe macintosh, the alpha, ... they have different keyboards, isn't it?14:16
B_LizzardWell, I suspect that the base keymaps are the same14:16
viricstrange. I had said that different platforms have different scancodes14:17
viricgrr my 2.6.35 just hanged in the nanonote. after seeing p1 in mmcblk014:56
viric(I connected the usb cable booting). The cursor stopped blinking14:56
viricI could reproduce it doing the same.14:58
viricwithout connecting the cable on boot, it works fine14:58
B_LizzardAre the limits for sound devices specified in-kernel?15:32
B_LizzardI suspect they are15:32
B_LizzardOr are these things hardware-dependent?15:33
larsclimits?15:34
B_LizzardUm, the steps15:35
B_LizzardThe limits for the Master control are 0 - 3, meaning that each step is a 33% in percentage15:35
B_Lizzard0 - 3 is too low, I think.15:35
larscthats all the hardware supports15:38
larscfor finer granularity you need a software volume15:41
B_LizzardOK, thanks15:52
B_LizzardI still haven't gotten bad driver behaviour...16:10
B_LizzardIt might've been that particular build.16:11
lisandropmviric: my friend just updated the description in caneda's webpage17:34
lisandropmI think it is more accurate now :)17:35
lisandropmwpwrak: also updated they relationship to qucs.17:35
wpwraklisandropm: nice, thanks ! so this is something that may one day compete with kicad ?17:40
lisandropmseems the idea, as I can read :-/17:40
wpwrakheh :)17:40
lisandropmbut it wouldn't suprise me if it takes a more µelectronics direction17:41
wpwrakthe layout in the screenshots points in this direction17:42
wpwraknot that i'd mind to have something with nicer selection to compete with eeschema. pcbnew will be harder to beat, though. there's a fair amount of magic that went into all those "magnetic" and "trace-hugging" functions17:43
lisandropmindeed, kicad has a lot of work inside it.17:45
lisandropmbut maybe a in-the-middle approach would suit betetr17:45
lisandropmlike having something to run simulations and the export to kicad17:46
lisandropmthat was my idea when I tried qucs :)17:46
wpwrakyes, that would be useful, too17:46
wpwrakthat's basically how i use it. just that export/import is manual :)17:46
lisandropm:)17:46
wpwrakwell, in many cases, that's fine. e.g., schematics and simualation of the same circuit may look very different. add a cap here for parasitic capacitance, replace an MCU with a resistor for input port leakage, etc.17:47
lisandropmyes17:48
wpwrakbut the basic gui interactions of kicad have a number of design concepts that just don't work well. like the weird way to do block ops, the clumsy concept of proximity in pcbnew, or the ordering of choices in ambiguous selections.17:51
wpwrakalas, so far all attempts to improve this seem to have failed :-( in no small part because each would require some major rearranging of internals to work smoothly.17:52
lisandropm:-(17:52
wpwrak(or so i've read. have't tried my luck with these myself :)17:53
kristianpaul:p17:54
kristianpaulwpwrak: but you you still using geda isnt?17:54
wpwrakand of course, C++ doesn't help with keeping patches small ...17:54
wpwrakkristianpaul: hell, no. i use kicad.17:55
wpwrakkristianpaul: i just see a lot of areas for improvements. e.g., when you click on something in pcbnew, the filtering of objects you may have clicked on is not very good.17:56
kristianpaulwpwrak: ahh , i tought may be i confused u with other people17:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: for instance, it sometimes includes objects that are nearby. with the ability to just zoom in, you don't need this.17:56
wpwrakkristianpaul: then, if there's an ambiguity, it pops up a selection. that's an improvement, because it make a more or less arbitrary pick before. but ... the selection is often redundant. e.g., if i'm about to delete a trace, it doesn't really matter on which segment i click. so if i hit an area where >= 2 segments could be selected, it could notice that they both have the same effect and not ask. this happens very very often.17:58
kristianpaulargg, ouchh17:59
kristianpaulyeah :(17:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: then, if object A overlaps object B at the point we click on, but A is by nature larger than B (e.g., A is a component while B is a trace), then it could give just priority to B, without looking at A.17:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: then, all block operations are by rectangle. there's no way to add/remove items from a selection or to combine selections. one consequence of this is that you now need a menu that lets you select what type of things you really wanted to include, because you often have some "bycatch".18:00
wpwrakkristianpaul: such a menu would be useful in general, but it would be a lot less necessary if selections were more flexible.18:01
wpwrakkristianpaul: (selection) i experimented a bit with such things in fped, that's where all those ideas come from :)18:02
kristianpaul:)18:03
kristianpaulwhen you decided write fped?18:03
wpwrak(of course, i managed to make it so complex that it sometimes gets confused :) should really take that code apart and redesign it from scratch)18:03
kristianpaulhmm18:04
wpwrakhmm, that was around the time when i looked at some bga, thought about drawing it with a perl script and then reviewing it with kicad's footprint editot, and then very quickly realized "no way !" :-)18:04
kristianpaulwpwrak: are you close with kicad developer, i wonder what you tried with then when openmoko times?18:05
kristianpaulie sending patches18:06
wpwraki don't think i contributed anything to kicad when at openmoko. i didn't have much to do with EE back then anyway. well, not officially :)18:07
wpwrakjust before starting with openmoko, i sent some patches for "hugging" traces. they were good enough to look exciting but broken enough to still need a month or two of work. luckily, someone picked them up and fixed them for me ;-)18:08
wpwraksince then, kicad development has taken a turn i don't like so much. the code is better structured by the coding style has become incredibly ugly, in my opinion. basically the diametral opposite of the linux kernel coding style.18:09
kristianpaul:-|18:10
rafalisandropm: btw, your QAntenna software looks great :).. well, I am not a hardware guy, but I just was reading the qantenna README and web page ;)18:20
wpwrakoh. interesting.18:23
kristianpaulyeah18:23
kristianpaullooks really interesting18:23
wpwraklisandropm: what antenna shapes can it analyze ? e.g., can it do pcb antennas ?18:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: i loads a .net file18:24
kristianpaulwhatever it is18:24
kristianpaullisandropm: what about gps atenas?, i guess nothing to do here cause is focused on active signals on just listen..18:25
wpwraklisandropm: e.g., i have the interesting problem of "porting" a meander designed for 1 mm FR4 to 0.8 mm FR4. all i know is that i should make it a bit larger, but without much of a clue how large.18:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: how do calculate timing for atusd, are you reading processor registers or just hardconding by guessing that processor always will run to NN Mhz ?18:32
kristianpauli ask that cause i dont know if by default openwrt modify clock speed.. :-/18:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: i measured the fastest bitbanging speed for a single gpio and i got about 1 MHz. from that, i concluded that i'll never have the slightest risk of going too fast :) (the interface can do 8 MHz, if memory serves me)18:36
kristianpaulahh18:36
kristianpaulwell18:37
wpwrakkristianpaul: you have a SIE, don't you ?18:39
kristianpaulwpwrak: i do18:39
kristianpauls/do/have18:40
wpwrakgood. then you can make the SPI to SPI gateway with the FPGA ;-)18:40
kristianpaulwell yes, actually i have a cpld for that job18:40
kristianpaulis more easy to wire and have better looking :)18:41
wpwrakhave you already built it ?18:43
kristianpaulnope i just made my jtag cable yday18:43
kristianpaulbut i was reading theory about 3 state buffer with vreilog18:44
kristianpauland i need it for the EVB so i'll with it for sure18:44
wpwrakcool. should be fun :)18:45
wpwrakcan't wait for sebastien to do his thesis on bitstream reverse-engineering and open synthesis :)18:46
kristianpaulhad you check this http://www.ulogic.org/trac ?18:48
wpwrakkristianpaul: yes, but they don't handle many of the newer/smaller chips18:49
kristianpaulwell open synthesis icarus verilog guys did some work but quit as excuse xilinx have free tools  so no bother?..18:50
kristianpaulwpwrak: who can handle18:50
kristianpaulthere are a lot18:50
kristianpauland more coming18:50
wpwraksebastien says that icarus isn't really usable18:53
kristianpaulheh he said that for almost everything :p18:54
kristianpaulbut indeed it have limitations18:54
wpwrak(almost everything) well, that's true :)18:54
wpwrakhave you used icarus ?18:55
kristianpaula bit18:55
kristianpaulsome basic simulation for learning verilog and for the ones that work in Milkymist code18:55
kristianpaulyou usually end reporting a bug18:56
wpwrak;-) are the bugs getting fixed ?18:56
kristianpaulwell from what i reported they said will take care of and recomendme use some custom IFDEF to make the simulation work with icarus ..18:58
wpwrakso did you get something that worked in the end ? will you use icarus to do the spi gateway on the cpld ?18:59
kristianpaulicarus cant do synthesis at that level19:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: well in partially worked19:00
kristianpaulso lets se NO19:00
kristianpaul:(19:00
kristianpaulsebatian tell me how to fix the code in  verilog, but i dint tried yet19:01
kristianpaulsebastien*19:01
wpwrakah, pity19:01
wpwrak"can't do" = by design or because of bugs ?19:02
kristianpaulwhat you meant with do?19:02
wpwrak"can't do synthesis at that level"19:03
kristianpaulsurelly i can simulate the verilog code, wich is actually no more that 20 lines19:03
kristianpaulyeah, i uderstood for you that icarus will take care of all the tasks that propiertary xilinx tools do to get  bitstream19:03
kristianpaulso the answers, if that if design is not ready for that19:04
kristianpauls/if/is19:04
kristianpauls/if/its19:04
kristianpaulsorry19:04
kristianpaulan nb19:04
kristianpauldamn19:04
kristianpauli read too fast and make mistakes .P19:04
kristianpaulwpwrak: ( can't do) by design bugs and who know what else19:05
kristianpaulthere are several steps to achive that bitstream just using free sofware19:07
kristianpaullet me look a mail thread about it19:07
wpwrakso it's possible with free tools. that's good.19:09
kristianpaulnot is not19:12
kristianpaul(there are several steps to achive that bitstream just using free sofware) not achieved yet19:12
wpwrakoh :-( i was hopeful for a moment ...19:14
kristianpaulno sorry, i just want meant there is a lot of work to do19:15
kristianpaulby then poeple to involve in that way19:15
kristianpaulfor many years19:15
kristianpaulor19:16
kristianpaulif wolfgang plans about making ASIC sucess (other years to wait for it) wen can have out how FPGA's , but that requires a PhD thesis or soemthing may be19:17
kristianpaulbut thats not excuse for you wpwrak dont have a FPGA devel board !! :)19:18
kristianpaulat least a CPLD ;)19:18
wpwraki have enough toys for the moment :)19:19
kristianpauli bet you have :)19:26
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=775997&aid=3012126&group_id=14985019:31
kristianpaulthats the bug i mentioned bofere19:31
kristianpaulbefore*19:31
wpwrak"fixed" :)19:33
kristianpaulxD19:34
kristianpaulthats said my goverment all time on TV ;)19:35
wpwrakthat's what distinguishes a democracy from a dictature - in the former, they still pretend to care :)19:37
kristianpauland the thead about all the work about freedom to fpga sofware start here: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-September/005369.html19:39
kristianpaul"Good approach, but quite a lot of work that puts off most open source "19:39
kristianpauldevelopers.19:39
kristianpaulso step by step, as some body in asia said :)19:40
wpwrakyeah :)19:41
kristianpaulwpwrak: is not confusinf for you set MASKS in atdusd.c and otherin hex, why not in binary? , i confess i dont know if C can handle binary data definition?..19:42
wpwrakwe shall overcome, one day :)19:42
wpwrakC doens't have base 219:42
wpwraki could use octal, though (-:C19:42
kristianpaulargg19:42
kristianpauldamm19:42
wpwraki should grow a goatee19:43
kristianpauli'll add coments as much as i can, hex for me still confusing to read :-/19:43
kristianpaul"C doens't have base 2" damn why not?? what about a gcc extension? may be..19:44
kristianpaulok19:45
wpwrakhex isn't that hard to translate in your head ...19:45
wpwrakit gets more messy if you have, say, 32 bit value s...19:45
kristianpaulhmm19:45
kristianpaulyes it varies19:45
wpwrakand bit fields that end at non-nibble boundaries. that sucks.19:45
kristianpauli just likt think in bits19:45
kristianpaullol :)19:45
kristianpaulwell19:46
wpwrakyou'll like f32x. it has bit entry for boundary scan mode :)19:46
kristianpaullets comment some ccode19:46
kristianpaulhmm i'll like your way of preset some bits as constants19:49
kristianpaulis like programa  microcontroller :) !19:49
wpwrakyeah, it's important to keep things sane :-)19:50
wpwrakhmm does anyone know if there's a way to make a pattern rule in gnu make that's equivalent to   %.foo: %/%.bar  ? (this doesn't work, because gnu make only substitutes the first % in %/%.bar. since this substitution is done after all other expansions, i can't trick it with $(subst ...) or such either)20:09
wpwraki could use vpath, though that's a bit brute-force ...20:17
wpwrakand of course,  vpath %.foo %/  doesn't work. grmbl.20:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: heya, want some more feedback on the mm-jtag thingy ?20:40
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes sure20:56
wpwrakalright ... first, you don't have values for FBx yet20:56
wpwraksecond, shouldn't R16 also have a voltage rating similar to C31 ? it has a 0402 footprint, so it's rated to only around 50 V20:57
wpwrakthird, the mini-usb connector symbol is quite ugly. to make it even more weird, it has two unused pins that don't correspond to anything in the footprint either. how about stealing the one from gta02-core or ben-wpan (the latter got it from the former) ?20:58
wpwrakben-wpan/components/mini_usb_b.lib20:59
wpwrakfifth, (that's something inherited from kicad) you have a nice example for the trouble with the default symbols when you look at the font sizes in FB2, then C27, and finally +3.3V (all are near each other)21:00
wolfspraulwhat do you mean with 'values for FBx'?21:00
wpwrakfinally, in case you try to do a pcbnew --plot/--gerber, maybe consider also eeschema --bom, so that we can remove this manual step as well21:01
wolfspraulyou mean the current rating? you want it to be in the KiCad fields?21:01
wpwrakcurrent rating, maybe resistance, or just a part number21:01
wpwrakright now it's a little under-specified ;-)21:02
wolfspraulhmm OK. good feedback thanks!21:03
dandonare multi-touch displays compatible with windows xp?21:10
wolfspraulfor the beads, actually I realized I didn't know to label them better, or what a 'good way' would be21:10
dandonhttp://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktop-monitors/lcd/x-series/vx2258wm.htm21:10
wolfspraulwpwrak: for example, would you just put "1A" into the value field?21:10
wpwraki'm not so sure about them myself. there are two parameters that are interesting: one is the current, the other the DC resistance21:11
wolfspraulhe :-) so we are back to where we were 2 days ago. that's why they don't have proper values yet.21:11
wpwrakfor now, you could just put the part number you already picked :)21:12
wolfspraulinto the value field?21:12
wpwrakyup. get a part number match21:12
wolfspraulhmm21:13
wolfsprauleven though the value field shows in the plotted schematics?21:13
wpwrakwhy not ? it characterizes the part21:13
wolfspraulhmm21:14
wolfspraulthat number doesn't make the schematics more readable21:14
wolfspraulthen rather maybe "BEAD 1A"?21:15
wpwraki wouldn't put type names into the value. in principle, the symbol should identify the type.21:16
wpwrakand, for boom, the component reference.21:17
wolfspraulI don't think I will put digi-key part numbers into the schematics now. I let you do the first step, once I see this in projects of yours I follow :-)21:17
wpwraki was thinking of the manufacturer part number, not distributor part numbers21:17
wolfspraulok I have no strong feelings on this now, because I work with these documents too little, so I don't know when exactly I look at them and what I then expect from them.21:18
wpwrakand there's precedent. e.g., in simple little cntr, we have U1 and D1, both with vendor PN21:18
wpwrakfor U1 it's so natural you don't even notice. for D1 a little less. but then, LEDs have a ton of characteristics ...21:19
wpwrakbeads also have their share. e.g., besides the obvious parameters, i think you can get them shielded or not, perhaps with material variations, and so on21:20
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added some TODO items http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/659de3621:25
wolfspraulthere it is, good stuff thanks!21:26
wpwraknice :)21:28
lisandropmrafa: thanks :)21:38
lisandropmwpwrak: actually it's just a GUI for necpp, wich should be able to analyse almost all antennas (if I am not much mistaken)21:39
lisandropmbut the real problem is that nec uses old card-style input21:40
lisandropmI always thought of doing a xml descrition of the antenas21:40
wpwraklisandropm: hah, didn't even know there were any free antenna analysis tools21:43
lisandropmjust a port of the old fortran numeric electromagnetic code to C++21:43
wpwrakdoes necpp have a home page ? i googled around a bit but only found packages without indication of their source21:47
kristianpaulwpwrak: http://www.nec2.org/21:48
wpwrakthanks !21:49
wpwrakkewl. the manual looks like written with a typewriter ;-)21:51
wpwrakwell the theory. but i think i'll skip this one :)21:51
lisandropmwpwrak: let me suggest http://elec.otago.ac.nz/w/index.php/Necpp (wich is the c++ port)21:53
kristianpauloh21:54
wpwrakhmm, necpp is in ubuntu, so getting it is the easy part. what's hard is to figure out how to model an antenna ...21:55
lisandropmindeed, that's the worst part :(21:55
wpwrakyou wouldn't happen to know of an example that looks a bit like this fellow ? http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/swra117d/swra117d.pdf21:55
kristianpaulgreat i link lisandropm ,21:56
kristianpauli needed this http://elec.otago.ac.nz/w/index.php/FFT :D21:56
lisandropmwpwrak: no, but it should'n be too hard to get it21:57
lisandropmnot preactical, that's for sure21:58
wpwrakhmm, here's a starting point ... http://www.signalpro.biz/ifa.pdf   no nec2 file, though :-(22:05
wpwraklisandropm: would you know a rule of thumb for resizing such a meander antenna when the PCB thickness changes ? i.e., the example is for a 1 mm board, but i'm using 0.8 mm.22:08
lisandropmwpwrak: sorry, but no22:09
lisandropmI actually wrote much of the GUI stuff22:09
lisandropmthe calculation part was done by necpp people ;)22:09
lisandropmGUI stuff: qantenna ;)22:09
Action: lisandropm should really create xmls or the like for describing antennas in a much clearer way :-/22:10
wpwrakjust thought you may have encountered such a problem already, since you know about such things .. :)22:10
kristianpaullisandropm: i guess poople ask you that all time :)22:11
lisandropmindeed, happens very often22:11
lisandropmor I am approached by people who used nec a lot and discover the gui, and ask me questions that I really don't have a clue of :-)22:12
kristianpaulis nec pople reacheble some how? irc or mail list may be?22:13
lisandropmmost people user supernec or 4nec2, wich are propietary22:15
wpwrakhmmm .... http://rze-falbala.rz.e-technik.fh-kiel.de/~splitt/html/mstrip.htm22:15
wpwrakclosed source and windows :-(22:16
wolfspraulwpwrak: I will now try to get a IEEE company_id for Qi Hardware. For use in MAC addresses etc.22:23
wolfspraulthe idea is to use it for all projects under the Qi umbrella, similar to the USB vendor ID.22:24
wpwrakexcellent !22:24
wpwrakben-wpan will certainly need this22:24
wolfspraulMilkymist One too22:24
wolfspraulok let's see how it goes... I keep you posted.22:25
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added modules/INFO and AUTHORS. http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/6bb7d7b22:43
Action: kristianpaul watching nanowar in OGV !!!23:13
kristianpaulrafa: so it was just use ffmpeg2theora (latest version)?23:16
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [uboot-xbust] fixed the [src] overflow when http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d0d013123:35
rafakristianpaul: the first script helps23:45
kristianpaulrafa: yeah i realized23:45
rafakristianpaul: we tried ffmpeg2theora before, but it did not gave us good videos to see23:45
kristianpauli need a small movie23:45
kristianpaullater ogv23:45
xiangfuwolfspraul: I think I fixed the 16gb sd card read bug. please test with your sd card. :)23:46
kristianpaulconverting some personal video now btw23:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: I have send one email to lists. you can find the new u-boot image at that email :)23:46
wolfspraulcool!23:47
rafakristianpaul: I found that for some videos mplayer shows the first frame for several seconds (maybe 10) until it continues okey.. so if you see this behaviour that is okey. I mean, it is the same thing I get.. no idea why. Maybe it is mplayer, maybe it is that video, maybe it is theora.. who knows23:49
kristianpauli think mplayert take a while to load the video23:50
kristianpaulok i'll inform you, as soon this finish converting23:51
kristianpaulhe23:54
kristianpaulit slowdown at first23:54
kristianpaulnow seems go better23:55
kristianpaulbut is great OGV !23:55
--- Mon Oct 25 201000:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!