#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2010-10-23

wolfspraulso the idea is that components/INFO describes the components that work in this design, not the reasons or selection criteria that led to this component00:00
kristianpauljuan64bits: ok, what about uSD linux module, is it working?00:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: components/* shouldn't be project-specific. i keep it in projects while testing. once things are stable, they can go to, say, kicad-libs00:01
wolfspraulincluding components/INFO ?00:02
wpwrakthat would be merged, yes00:02
wolfspraulgive that components/INFO is totally separate from KiCad I'm not sure it's a good idea to move it to kicad-libs00:02
wpwrakmaybe with some editing, depends on how much junk ended up there00:02
wolfspraulit will create a barrier for people to edit/update it00:02
wpwrakcomponents/INFO documents the content on components/*00:02
juan64bitsyes, the module is the same of ben.... we only change some parameters for the GPIOs00:03
wpwrakwhere else would you keep this ? in the wiki ? :)00:03
wolfspraulhmm00:03
wolfspraulI just thought I understood components/INFO :-)00:03
juan64bitsyou can see the patch in the SIE repository00:03
wolfspraulmaybe the user fields would actually be better then00:03
wpwraki don't particularly like those invisible fields00:04
nitin_guptagettine error while refalshing the kernel. Can anybody help me00:04
wolfspraulin ben-wpan, components/INFO has exactly one actual piece of data - it connects the crystal to a part number00:04
wolfspraulthen there are some comments above the symbols00:05
wolfspraulthe symbols are just the ones from the .libs, but need to be manually kept up to date00:05
wpwrakyou'll find more detailed INFO files in gta02-core. those in ben-wpan are more or less for my own entertainment, and fairly sloppy :)00:06
wolfspraulhow is the connection of the generic crystal to a part number not project specific?00:06
wolfspraulok maybe I ignore components/INFO for now, will watch what happens00:07
wpwrak(crystal) it's an example for one possible such crystal. and yes, that's not really clean. the correct approach would be to write a document that defines this class of crystals, with references to real parts00:07
wolfspraulI got the BOOKSHELF idea now, I think00:07
wolfspraulit's just what it says - a separate 'bookshelf' :-)00:08
wpwrakyup :)00:08
wolfsprauland nice script to download and open docs00:08
kristianpauljuan64bits: k00:08
wolfspraulbut not overly, or in fact in any way, linked to symbols or references in the schematics00:08
wolfspraulhence also the 'nice' aliases etc.00:08
wolfspraulso that one is clear00:08
kristianpauljuan64bits: other isolated question, did you have issue with the usb connector in SIE,00:08
wpwrakit also has things like application notes, design guides, etc.00:08
wolfspraulwpwrak: where would that document that defines a class of crystals and references it to real parts be? wouldn't that be in boom/.sub files?00:09
wpwrakso it's a place other things may link to but it's not a place that links out (except to the data sheet, of course)00:09
kristianpauljuan64bits: like some pin just dont make good contact with the usb cable by then power fails when feeding from usb?00:09
wpwrak(document) no no, that would be a real document. like that guy's kicad missing feature list00:10
kristianpaulmay be just happened to me, i just want it to mak public :)00:10
kristianpauland sure i can solve it soldering a new usb conector00:10
wolfspraulfor those few lines it could be just comment lines in a .sub file, no?00:11
rafakristianpaul: juan64bits : what is the sie reposiroty? where is it? what does it cointain? (kernel? bootloader? rootfs?).. sorry if many questions :)00:11
juan64bitsmm yes, something similar happened to a student00:11
wpwrakfew lines = definition of crystal ? well, depends00:11
kristianpaulrafa: SIE repo http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/nn-usb-fpga/00:11
kristianpaulrafa: all our answer are in there in the patchs and rootfs ;)00:11
juan64bitsyes, that is...00:12
wpwrak.sub shouldn't really be a source anyway. the underlying design and conventions ought to be documented elsewhere00:12
nitin_guptakristian, can you solve my prob00:12
kristianpaulmay be juan64bits  can tell more about its particular folder hierarchy :)00:12
kristianpaul(sie repo and var stuff?..)00:12
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: hello00:12
nitin_guptahi whats up00:12
kristianpauljust write and oher people can read you too :)00:13
wpwrakalso, .sub has no idea what schematics symbols you're using, so it wouldn't really make sense to document them there00:13
nitin_guptakristian, iam trying to reflash the kernel of NN but getting error00:13
juan64bitssie repository contains many examples for SIE00:13
nitin_guptaError : "cant get kernel image"00:13
juan64bitslike logics for the FPGA, comunication CPU-FPGA00:14
kristianpauljuan64bits: for example production SIE board were based on kicad ? i just noticed some labels do not correpond in the kicad project in the repo, wich ones?, the one the conector for uart and i2c00:14
rafajuan64bits: is it okey for sakc (previous sie boards) as well? is it the official software repository? (I mean, if you use just the software on that repository for your boards without extra software from other places)00:14
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: how you the boot process?00:15
juan64bitssome binaries, the rootfs (that is merge with the ben in basic configuration)00:15
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: what steps you followed?00:15
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: are you using regflash script?00:15
nitin_guptaafter flashing the kernel and rootfs, I just remove the usb cable and plug in the battery back and power on.00:15
nitin_guptano I am not using reflash script00:16
kristianpaulit seems the uImge is not there00:16
nitin_guptaI tried it but it was not working some how00:16
kristianpaulwhar instructions you followed?00:16
juan64bitsmmm the kicad board are a copy of previous orcad design, and never has been made00:16
kristianpaulwhat*00:16
kristianpauljuan64bits: aha !!!!00:16
nitin_guptafirstly bring NN in usb mode00:16
kristianpaul**never has been made**00:17
wolfspraulkristianpaul: neither the avt2 nor sie kicad files were used for actual pcb or smt00:17
wolfspraulnobody dared to do that yet :-)00:17
kristianpaul:/00:17
nitin_guptathen usbboot -c "boot", then usbboot -c "nprog 1024 kernel_image 0 0 -n" and last usbboot -c "nprog 2048 rootfs image 0 0 -n"00:17
wolfspraulbut it looks like we finally will with Xue00:18
juan64bitsbut we are thinking use this design in the next revision00:18
wolfspraulyes, and in SIE v300:18
kristianpauli hope is not same for xue.. but thats other talk00:18
wolfspraulkristianpaul: we are getting there, there were always specific reasons, this and that.00:18
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: nerase?..00:18
nitin_guptanope00:18
kristianpaulsure00:18
kristianpaultime , run run run !!00:18
nitin_guptaI havent used it00:18
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: you need for rootfs00:18
kristianpaulwait a min00:18
nitin_guptano such cmd is written in the booklet00:19
juan64bitsno, xue design began on kicad00:19
kristianpaulgood00:19
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Updating_Ben_with_usbboot00:20
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: i always follow that00:21
kristianpaulyou'll need run nerase 16 512 0 000:21
kristianpaulnefore flash rootfs00:21
kristianpaulbefore*00:21
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: i guess you compiled you're own images isnt?00:21
kristianpaulwolfspraul: smt and kicad dont go well, i really dont know what data is required in that process besides i know gerber is for making PCBs..00:22
kristianpaul?00:22
nitin_guptayes00:23
wolfspraulyou can check the Milkymist One runs as a reference, all files that were necessary for SMT are documented there00:23
kristianpaulk00:23
kristianpaulso guess answer is no00:23
kristianpaul:p00:23
wolfspraulyes we need to document the entire process from Kicad to PCB making to SMT (pick & place), and how to generate all supporting files00:23
wolfspraulthe entire workflo00:23
wolfspraulworkflow00:23
wolfspraulI think it's doable, definitely. Just a lot of little pieces and it all needs to be documented well. The various projects are getting us closer there, for sure.00:24
wolfspraulmaybe we need a few runs until the process and documentation is really good and easily reusable for anybody.00:25
juan64bitsyes, for now We tested a card, like arduino, for pcb making00:25
juan64bitsBut the assembly was done manually :)00:27
kristianpaulwolfspraul: remenber the board a guy introduced by andres in cparty gave you, the board name is miulin00:27
kristianpaulwas made all in kicad00:27
kristianpaulsadly no public sources yet :(00:27
wolfspraulsure I remember00:27
kristianpaulbut SMT was done manually if i remenber well, so no complete workflow00:27
wolfspraulI think we are ahead of this, the point is to open up all files, the process, etc.00:27
kristianpaulbut at least the board is prove is posible00:27
kristianpaulprobe*00:28
wolfspraulnot dump a zip at the end somewhere00:28
kristianpaulsure00:28
wolfspraulgit/svn is important, KiCad, things like schhist, boom, wiki to document some things00:28
kristianpaulagree00:28
wolfspraulalso those little things I keep pinging Werner about, like BOOKSHELF, how to document component selection criteria, design choices, etc.00:29
wolfspraulthe problem is that a) it's not enough if one person just declares the perfect process, it has to be thought through and used by multiple people over time and00:30
wolfspraulb) it needs to be rested and refined by real manufacturing, be it at home/diy style, or with services/companies00:30
wolfspraulneeds to be tested00:30
wolfspraulmaybe Xue can become our masterpiece, he he00:31
wolfspraullet's see00:31
wolfspraulmaybe a lot of things will come together there00:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: about the crystal we talked about earlier. the current C1/C3 is 27pF, the crystal on the current board has a load capacitance of 12pF.00:32
wolfspraul2*12=24, so a little lower than 27pF but I guess it should work? I mean I saw boards working so it must work...00:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: the chip probably isn't that sensitive to clock inaccuracy.00:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: it gets nastier when you do RF :)00:33
wolfspraulif I go to a 18pF crystal I guess I will just increase C1/C3 to 33pF as you suggested00:35
wpwrakyup, that should work nicely. your pins will add a few pF too, so you'll end up more or less exactly with 36 pF00:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: in this case, how would you name the 'value' in eeschema? it's 'crystal_smd' right now00:48
wolfspraulwould you encode the 12mhz and/or load capacitance?00:49
wolfspraulif the footprint is in mm (3.2mm x 2.5mm here), any standard format for that?00:49
wolfspraulwhich of those things would you encode in the value, footprint or user defined fields (in eeschema)?00:50
wpwrak(value) good question :) the frequency for sure. the load cap is rarely mentioned, yet it does matter00:51
wolfspraulwell it seems it does. the crystals I find are between 8 and 18pF, and it sounds like without changing other capacitors, you wouldn't want to just ignore this value.00:52
wpwrakafaik, crystal footprints can have a lot of sizes.00:52
wolfsprauldigikey for example has the load capacitance in the description field00:53
wolfspraulbut not the frequency stability and tolerance00:53
wolfspraulso the load capacitance does seem to stand out somewhat as something you will want to get right/matching in your design00:53
wpwraknot the tolerance ? i think they do00:54
wolfspraul"CRYSTAL 12.000000 MHZ 8PF SMD"00:55
wpwrakaah, description field, right. well, the digi-key description field can be odd at times :)00:56
wolfspraulmaybe the value should be CRYSTAL_SMD_12MHZ_18PF ? (in our design)00:56
wolfspraulor is that too much?00:56
wolfsprauljust trying to understand what you would move to which place...00:56
wpwrakwell, ->I<- would have 12MHz in the value and 18pF in another (visible) field00:57
wpwrakbut you can pick a different style :) you need to adapt the .sub then, though00:58
wolfspraulwhich fields are visible?00:58
wolfspraulyou mean visible in the plotted schematics I guess00:58
wpwrakbecause my .subs don't know about the param/other_param format00:58
wpwrakyou can choose in eeschema whether a field's value is shown in the schematics or not00:59
wolfspraulah OK00:59
wolfspraullooks ugly, not enough space for the "18pF" right smack in the middle of the crystal symbol01:02
wolfspraulbtw, the Value is "12MHz" right now, the Footprint is "CRYSTAL_SMD"01:02
wolfspraulshould the footprint include an attempt to encode the size in it? 3.2mm x 2.5mm. Or rather not?01:03
wolfspraulI think I leave the additional Load_Capacitance field invisible for now, it's too ugly01:04
wolfspraulfield names can have spaces in eeschema, is that supported (or encouraged) by boom?01:04
wpwrakhmm, boom in general doens't like spaces so much. you can wildcard-jump over them, though01:05
wolfspraulno problem, I understand that as 'don't use spaces in eeschema field names'01:05
wpwrak(in the middle) you can move fields around in eeschema01:05
nitin_guptakristian NN doesnt wake up after that01:05
nitin_guptai have reflashed uboot, kernel and rootfs and all get done successfully01:06
wpwrakthe footprint should identify the physical size somehow. this can be a standard package name (DIP-10, SSOP-20, etc.), an explicit size, or whatever else works.01:07
wpwraknow, crystals are one kind of components where i'm not sure if there are any standard sizes or not01:07
wolfspraulyes I think there are, but a lot, maybe 20 or so01:08
wpwrak"the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from" ;-)01:09
wolfspraulthe ones I've seen (digikey only) can be either in diameter, or xy01:09
wolfspraulok so I will encode 3.2mm x 2.5mm in the footprint01:09
wolfspraulthanks for the hint about moving fields, I moved the new Load_Capacitance down and it looks good now01:10
wpwrakgreat :)01:12
nitin_guptakristaian u there ?01:15
kristianpaulstill01:16
nitin_guptaNN is not booting up ?01:18
kristianpauli heard that before ;)01:20
kristianpaulnitin_gupta: if you tell us we can give more focused responses01:22
nitin_guptaok01:22
nitin_guptanow tell me what to do in order to get NN up ?01:23
kristianpauli'mm off01:23
kristianpaulchao !01:23
wolfspraulwpwrak: it seems the first letter in a KiCad schematic reference is standardized somewaht01:33
wolfspraulC = capacitors, R = resistors01:33
wolfspraulU = ICs?01:33
wolfspraulX = crystals01:33
wolfspraulwhere is this documented?01:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: are you sure it's documented somewhere ? ;-)01:35
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: changed to cheaper 18pF crystal (was 12pF before), clarified X1 fields, changed C1/C3 to 33pF to match the crystal http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/7f5682201:39
nitin_guptawolfspraul can u help me01:40
wolfspraulI just commited the crystal stuff we talked about. if you have a minute you can check whether you see a style problem.01:43
wolfspraulboomification is coming closer...01:43
wolfspraulnitin_gupta: I doubt it.01:46
nitin_guptawhat ?01:46
wolfspraulI doubt that I can help you.01:46
wolfspraulnitin_gupta: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Unbrick01:47
wpwrakwolfspraul: looks good. now, filter parameters and led color (or, in both cases, just the part name, if you have something specific in mind) :)01:54
wolfspraulah good point01:56
wolfspraulanother comment (should be to KiCad though not you) - the silent creation of -cache.lib is really nasty01:57
wolfspraulI think what that means is that it's safer to just make the -cache.lib file part of what is being committed/tracked in the vcs01:57
wolfspraulI have also seen components only end up in that file (93c46), so I guess it is somehow possible in the KiCad GUI to have original components end up there.01:58
wolfspraulanother serious bug01:58
wolfspraulso until KiCad fixes those serious bugs in how it creates, links to, and allows original data to creep into the -cache.lib file, we are better off always committing it01:58
wolfspraulwhat do you think?01:58
nitin_guptai tried http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Updating_Ben_with_usbboot01:58
nitin_guptaand after it only NN is not booting up01:58
nitin_guptanow when i am issuing lsusb command then its vendor id is not coming up01:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: dunno. i don't have such a file. maybe you want to find out what caused yours to get created ?02:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: for the filters, they are beads and current rating should be >= 500mA. Should I make a new field 'Type' and say "bead 1A"?02:02
wolfspraulwell if you think we don't need to commit -cache.lib it's OK for me, I can manually delete it before commits.02:03
wolfspraulI'm just worried about the general usability of our tools. Yet another fairly specific thing to watch out for.02:03
wolfspraulin general, my understanding is we should leave all parameters that are not really hard requirement unspecified, to not overly restrict the part matching process later, in other words - all unspecified parameters can be chosen simply on price of component.02:05
wolfspraulmaybe there are some borderline cases, say the color of the leds. could be different on each run :-) (theoretically)02:05
wolfspraulmaybe also other values that _should_ be higher or lower for whatever reason, but don't totally have to02:06
wolfspraulso it's up to the design to make those decisions, which will then trickle into boom02:06
wolfspraulor to not make them, which means lower costs beats everything else02:06
wolfspraulcorrect me if I misunderstood something02:06
wolfsprauldo you think KiCad schematics fields should always be upper-case? "BEAD 1A"?02:07
nitin_guptakristian I am not abel to get any hint for this case02:12
nitin_guptahi xiangfu03:47
nitin_guptai tried http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Updating_Ben_with_usbboot to reflash NN but now it is not booting also03:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: in ben-wpan/bom/Makefile, do you want to take out the dk/ references and targets (and delete the entire ben-wpan/bom/dk folder maybe?). My understanding is that it has moved to eda-tools/boom/dist/dk and I get duplicate errors in ben-wpan unless I remove those references.04:22
wolfspraulI think boom-config is now taking care of it, again if I get this all right...04:23
wolfsprauldo you have any future plans for ben-wpan/bom/lib/{captol.inc,e12.inc}?04:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: in ben-wpan/bom/Makefile, line 24 and line 29, I think there is an unneeded -r recursive flag in rm -rf05:08
nitin_guptano one can solve my prob ?06:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: i don't have all the parts atusd needs in eda-tools/boom/06:40
wpwrak(yet)06:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you see the other two -r I found? I think they are not needed. Seems you have a trigger finger, when in doubt, rm -rf :-) Or are they needed there?06:57
wolfspraulben-wpan/bom/Makefile, line 24 and 2906:57
wolfspraulah, another question. the parameters for bom2part and part2order, equ/inv/chr files, do they have to be in a particular order? or are you always looking at the first line anyway?07:00
wpwrak(params) you mean the file names ? different kinds of files can be in any order. files of the same kind may have an (undocumented :-) order dependency07:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: More rm -rf to rm -f changes. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/850e9fc07:41
wpwrak(rm -rf) thanks !07:41
wpwrakplans for ben-wpan/bom/lib/: yes, deletion :)07:42
wpwrakbut please heed the warning in boom/UNDER-CONSTRUCTION :) all the stuff is unfinished and, particularly where it spans projects, full of design inconsistencies. what you can do is set up things so that boom will make a nice shopping list for you, but whatever you do, it won't be "right" for long, since things will change.07:45
wpwrak(change) also simply by considering more user input. but again, it's not quite ready for throwing it at everyone in qi-hw07:46
wpwrak(duplicates in ben-wpan) hmm, i don't get any. did you git pull everything to the latest version ? ben-wpan used to have things that conflicted, but i removed them several days ago.07:54
wpwrak(migrated them over to eda-tools/boom)07:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: maybe I got the duplicates because I ran the queries against digikey later than you?08:01
wolfspraulI am fully aware of the state of boom.08:01
wolfspraulI thought that is precisely why I dive in now:08:01
wolfspraula) to give you feedback (which I am doing already)08:01
wolfspraulb) to learn about the system myself, early on, so that I can use it for some small test projects, and later will be in a good position to hook it up for 'demo' use on the server too08:01
wolfspraulso far everything is great, I'm totally excited about it!08:02
wolfspraulif you find my feedback too unnerving, I slow down until you tell me it's ready. But I try to give feedback mostly on small details that are bugs or inconsistencies today, and will likely be carried over.08:02
wolfspraulor to confirm some design decisions with you, and maybe encourage you to document them somewhere because (at least to me) they were non-obvious at the beginning08:03
wolfsprauland you only get these types of impressions once, after a while the whole system looks naturally to you, even though it isn't from the outside...08:03
wolfspraulI think it works amzingly well already. I am generating my parts list now :-)08:04
wpwrak(see things only once) this is unfortunately very true ...08:07
wpwrak(parts list now) wow ! did you also modify the .sub for the value/value fields ?08:08
wpwrak(feedback) yup, feedback is good. it's just that you're quickly entering known bug territory when you look for things now strictly part of what boom touches. e.g., the connection via INFO files. that's something that's never been exercised. all the INFOs do for now is provide a place to put comments and references in a semi-formal way. until there's a script somewhere that actually checks for referential integrity or - even better - ac08:11
wpwraktually does something with the data, they're completely unreliable.08:11
qi-bot[commit] Wolfgang Spraul: added very first boom support files http://qi-hw.com/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/a05bb8408:11
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm slow, just beginning with .sub now08:11
wpwrakyou'll find more problems e.g., in module naming. anything that's not in kicad-libs is to be treated with a great deal of suspicion08:11
wpwrak.sub is where the fun lies :-)08:11
wolfspraulah yes, no worries. I won't bug you further on BOOKSHELF and components/INFO. It's all clear to me now.08:11
wolfspraulyes of course08:11
wolfspraulI will probably start with BOOKSHELF first.08:12
wpwraka BOOKSHELF is a nice thing to have around :)08:12
wpwrakbtw, dsv can work with a hierarchy. so you could have things for project/ and more specific things for project/subproject/08:13
wolfspraulI'm in no way worried about this deep-linking nonsense. If someone really comes forward with this, we will gladly remove deep-linking to their sites, and all their component characteristics and databases right with it. No problem.08:13
wpwrake.g., if your project has two different mcus, you could have an alias "mcu" in project/foo/ and another one in project/bar/08:14
wpwraknot sure if it's really useful, but at least it's there :)08:14
wolfspraulI don't need that right now.08:14
wolfspraulmy needs are very modest08:14
wolfspraul:-)08:14
wpwrakyeah, i think the deep-linking thing is excessive08:14
wolfspraulin fact I may even hard-wire many things, and bring in the logic later08:14
wolfspraulI just want to exercise the system, understand where it's going, etc.08:14
wolfspraulnot run into all sorts of weird bugs now when it's not fully stable yet.08:14
wolfspraulbtw I ran the queries against digikey, it took a few hours but it all worked. have over 11,000 parts locally now :-)08:15
wpwrakit may also have troubles in court, if it should come to that. most of the rulings that went very far in favour of the side being linked to are old, from times when judges didn't quite understand that internet thing yet08:15
wpwrakand then there are deep linking decisions in cases where there was clearly an abuse. such as pretending the data belonged to the linker. but we don't even remotely do such things08:16
wpwrak(digi-key queries) kewl :) when things have matured a bit more, it would make sense to provide database snapshots for easy download. if you bzip2 the database, is shrinks to only about 10%08:17
wpwrakyou can see a very very early version of that idea in the "tar" target of eda-tools/boom/Makefile. but the file name doesn't make much sense yet, of course08:18
wpwrakah, and to fully bring up boom, you also need to  cd manu; for n in *; do make -C $n; done08:19
wpwrakanother one of these construction sites :)08:19
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes sure over time we should include multiple distributors, multiple manufacturers. and make it downloadable, definitely.08:25
wolfspraulone by one08:26
wolfspraulno need to get stuck on this now and let it bloat. using it for real projects is the best growth medicine.08:26
wpwrakyup. something you don't use has a very high risk of being wrong anyway :)08:27
wolfspraulwpwrak: ahh, did you see my older questions when you were asleep?08:33
wolfspraulabout the fields for filters, whether I should say "BEAD 1A"08:33
wolfsprauland for the LED, similar, which fields you would use to record the color, or the Vf Typ (if at all)08:34
wpwrakoh, there were more :) checking ...08:38
rafatuxbrain: I have news for you08:38
rafatuxbrain: tuxbrain tuxbrain tuxbrain08:38
wpwrak(fields) the field name isn't exported to the .lst file, so boom doesn't care what you put there :) (and yes, i'd rather wish this was different)08:40
wolfspraul[field name] oh good point, I didn't think about that. So I can just use spaces then.08:41
wpwrak(led color) there's indeed a tricky issue here. what do you do with parts that change after the schematics ? you could have a per-production run .sub or .equ file, of course. not sure on which side of the fine line between relative sanity and raving madness this lies, though08:42
wolfspraulin my mind the design files, including .sub/.equ, express the full idea of the designer, including priorities08:43
wolfspraulso if people favor stability/quality, it will be expressed there08:43
wolfsprauland if they favor price, same08:43
wpwrak(specify as little as possible in general) yes, letting the price decide is usually a good idea :) if you over-specify, you may lead boom to exotic parts, either because they're at the end of the range of available values or just because the combination of values is rare08:43
wolfspraulwhat would you put in for the beads, specifically? (and the leds)08:44
wpwrak(-cache.lib) for some reason, i don't get this at all (in recent designs - i've seen it before, though). maybe i'm just lucky ;-)08:44
wpwrak(bead current) it's not the type of the bead. it's its maximum current :) i'd associate "type" more with the materials and physical structure of the bead.08:46
tuxbrainrafa: what hapens!!08:46
tuxbrainsorry I was little out08:46
wolfspraulI see you have some in ben-wpan, I will just follow what you did there.08:46
wpwrakthe maximum current could be called something like I or Imax08:46
wolfspraulyes just saw it08:47
wolfspraulI will follow ben-wpan08:47
rafatuxbrain: can you test something and tell me if you are a bit happier?08:47
rafatuxbrain: (on nn)08:47
tuxbrainuff not until Wensday08:47
rafatuxbrain: okey.. I will try to record a video08:47
wpwrakthe ones in ben-wpan probably don't help much. there it's just size and inductance. they're inductors, not beads. (but don't ask me what exactly the difference is ;-)08:47
rafatuxbrain:  I need your opinion/suggestions to continue08:47
tuxbrainok08:48
rafatuxbrain: it is theora video ;)08:48
tuxbraintake for sure I will get it to it ASAP but I must end somthing with a dead line08:48
rafatuxbrain: no problem.. but I think that these are good news.. so I will try to record something08:49
rafatuxbrain: so you can check08:49
tuxbrainbtw I love you rafa :****08:49
rafassshhh.. no our love here08:50
rafait is logged, public, the whole world will know08:50
kristianpaulrafa: are you playing theora in ben mplayer with no slowness??08:52
rafakristianpaul: yes.. but i did not do much.. it is almost working out of the box.. just that we are lazy and blind08:53
kristianpaulrafa: how is posible??08:53
kristianpaul(blind) indeed08:53
kristianpaulyou finded better use for SIMD instructioons?08:54
kristianpaulyou changed the way to encode ogg?08:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: are you sure? in atrf.sub, I have a D* TYPE=FILTER M=BEAD08:55
wolfspraul"BEAD" means inductor?08:55
rafakristianpaul: yes, I was playing with mencoder and ffmpeg encode options08:56
rafakristianpaul: and trying the theora player example which comes with libtheora08:57
rafakristianpaul: but I realized that mplayer also is okey, or better than example08:57
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah .. right. i have something there. that's still untouched from gta02-core. as i said, i'm not entirely sure how to classify beads. my understanding is that they're basically inductors, but they're not specified in terms of inductance.08:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: rather, they're specified in terms of their filtering properties. so this would need someone with a bit more EE background than me to figure out.08:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: the current stuff is very pragmatic - i just map it in terms of use, even if this may not be "correct".09:00
wolfspraulwpwrak: k got it.09:03
wolfspraulso beads are not included in the current dist or manu databases yet09:05
wpwrakno, only smt ceramic caps and smt resistors09:06
wpwrakno inductors, no beads, no semiconductors, no non-ceramic caps, no though-hole, no connectors, etc.09:06
wpwrakthat's why you still need those project-specific dk/ :)09:07
wolfspraulwpwrak: how does bom2part determine the namespace if the characteristics matching failed?09:21
wolfspraulfor example in ben-wpan, there is ATRF meander09:21
wolfspraulin the .sub file, it only says FP=meander -> VAL=meander09:21
wolfspraulthen there is an .inv file that gives virtual inventory for ATRF meander 999999 ...09:22
wolfspraulbut how does it go from the VAL=meander to ATRF meander?09:22
wpwrakbefore characteristics mathcing, it tries value matching. if there's a part with part number == value, it takes that one09:22
wpwrak(irrespective of name space)09:22
wolfsprauloh09:22
wpwrak(see also my reply to adam ;-)09:22
wolfspraulI read that one, but it must have slipped my attention.09:23
wolfspraulI don't think this is mentioned in README.09:23
wpwrak(.inv) yup, that's what it usses09:23
wolfspraulsure I just didn't know where the translation from VAL=meander to namespace + part-number was made09:23
wolfspraulso if the VAL matches a part-number, no matter in which namespace, that always trumps everything else09:23
wpwrakyes09:23
wolfspraulgot it09:24
wolfspraulI think this is not mentioned in README. Or under-represented.09:24
wpwrakREADME is very incomplete ...09:26
wolfspraulI think it's pretty good, I can recommend it to anyone else, definitely.09:27
wolfspraullike I said, I would only change the order of the sections.09:27
wolfsprauland this little missing 'jump' I found now, from value to part-number.09:27
wpwraki'm also not sure if i really like this matching algorithm. it works well for small databases, but it may cause problems (i.e., false matches) if the database grows.09:27
wolfspraulyou mean the one using characteristics?09:28
wpwrakperhaps boom should complain if there's more than one part number hit, and have some means for also specifying a name space09:28
wolfspraulor the one that turns a value into a part-number?09:28
wpwrakthe latter09:28
wolfspraulah yes09:28
wolfspraulit's a little risky :-)09:28
wpwraki hope characteristics matching is relatively safe :)09:28
wpwrakto make characteristics matching even better, there should be a means to interactively query the database, like the parametric search in digi-key09:29
wolfspraulmaybe a specific 'catch' in a characteristics file would be better?09:29
wolfspraulwell sure, one by one. there are many ways to query and work with this data.09:30
wpwrakhow would the catch work ?09:30
wolfspraulthe catch catches a specific value, and maps it to namespace/part-number09:30
wpwrak(interactive) that way, one could poke around before committing to a set of parameters. e.g., if a part is under-specified, one would probably notice. likewise, if it's over-specified.09:30
wolfspraulactually I was looking for a atrf.chr file to do just that, because I didn't know how the VAL=meander would make it directly to the .inv file09:31
wpwrakah, that's not a role for .chr files09:31
wolfspraulwell yeah, so you just have an invisible direct bypass instead :-)09:31
wpwrakbut you have the project-specific .equ and you can also do mappings in .sub (gta02-core has a lot of the latter. i don't like them so much anymore, though)09:32
wolfspraulyes but in the .sub you always stay 'behind' the characteristics barrier09:32
wolfspraulyou are setting fields, but you cannot specify a namespace/part-number, or can you?09:32
wpwrakthe sequence is: VAL -> PN match. if unsuccessful, do the substitutions, then09:32
wpwraktry VAL -> PN again. (.sub may substitute VAL). if you still don't have a hit,09:33
wpwrakdo the characteristics search09:33
wpwrak.sub currently can't specify a name space. it can mess with the value, though09:33
wolfspraulyes I saw that already09:34
wolfspraulI see it like a .chr bypass09:34
wolfspraulset the val to a known part-number and you bypass the .chr09:34
wpwrakin a way, yes. there are basically two kinds of parts - the ones you identify by characteristics and the ones you identify by part number09:35
wpwrake.g., there's little reason to try to select the Jz4720 by characteristics, for there are way too many that have to be exactly right (and they're heavily redundant, too)09:36
wpwrakbut for things like reistors and the like, this works well. so characteristics are mainly for "simple" parts09:36
wpwrakfor more complex ones, you'll always want just the part number09:37
wpwraknote that you can have a 1:n mapping by introducing your own PNs. e.g., you can have an equivalence QIHW BEN-CPU INGENIC JZ472009:38
wpwrakif the make a JZ4721 some day that differs in some details but is sufficiently compatible, you could add an equivalence QIHW BEN-CPU INGENIC JZ4721. then boom could pick either.09:38
wolfspraulyes sure09:39
wolfspraulall fine, I just didn't know the VAL -> PN jump09:40
wolfspraulbut now I do - thanks!09:40
wpwrakthe schematics wouldn't change for this. of course, there's also the question to what extent this would affect the value of the schematics as documentation. if all the parts just have some "generic" value, you've just hidden all the useful information.09:40
wolfspraulyes of course09:50
wolfspraulthe idea is to express in generic characteristics as much as possible09:50
wolfspraulkeeping time contraints and short-term practical goals in mind09:50
wolfspraulso you start with ceramic capacitors and resistors - great!09:50
wolfspraulthen we can add more, one by one09:50
wolfspraulI want to get my jtag-serial daughterboard made, 35 of them09:51
wolfspraulthat's all09:51
wolfspraulafter that don't know yet, maybe xue already? xue would be cool09:51
wolfspraulxue sourcing with boom :-)09:51
wolfspraulbut then I'm pretty useless on adding new types to the characterized parts. I know too little about the electrical parameters. so I have to wait until you add some more groups of components.09:52
wolfspraulno rush though, the system is cleanly designed imo and should grow well09:52
wolfsprauland if it grows, the older, 'directly' specified parts could slowly become more generally characterized parts09:53
wpwrakfor anything that isn't there, you can just go ahead, pick a part manually from a distributor, and add it to a project-specific .equ09:53
wpwrakyes, that too09:53
wpwrakthat's what happened with the resistors and capcitors in atusd09:54
wolfspraulwpwrak: boom/READE says that the field-names are case insensitive, are the field contents also case insensitive?10:14
wolfspraul(I mean in .sub matching)10:14
wolfspraulso for example R* val=test -> ...10:15
wolfspraulwill it also match if val is upper-case "TEST"?10:15
wolfspraulin my tests it seems to match, but isn't that somewhat risky in the field contents? shouldn't the field contents be matched case sensitive?10:17
wolfspraulthe subsequent (direct) value to part-number matching seems to be case insensitive as well10:18
wpwrakhmm, yes, i upper-case the pattern10:19
wpwrakno, wait .. the field10:20
wpwrakthe pattern should be "as is"10:20
wpwrakgrmbl. xchat make it easy to clone a window by accident, but hard to close just the "bad" window ...10:22
wpwraki need to examine this. for now, just don't count on it being case-insensitive.10:28
rafawpwrak: clone a window chat?.. for what? I do not know how useful would be that10:28
wpwrakrafa: don't know either. but something i types cloned the window and when i tried to close one of them, the other had only useless tabs, so i had to exit xchat completely10:29
rafaargh10:29
rafawpwrak: I did a script a lot faster than opkg using swap (script does not need swap so far).. But no idea if it is okey or if there are important bugs that I am not seeing.. because I can not believe that a script would be more useful/faster than opkg itself. I would like to have the enough time to learn opkg/ipkg/dpkg to debug/improve10:32
kristianpaulirsii !10:32
rafawpwrak: currently, opkg using swap sucks.. and without swap it does not work. SO okey, I give opkg swap. But then, if you want to install, for example, tangogps.. opkg takes..... a looooong time.. maybe 20minutes, yes10:33
rafascript takes around 4min or less10:34
wpwrakrafa: opkg probably does something extremely inefficient. i can't imagine you really need all that many resources for such a task10:35
rafawpwrak: (opkg) it is happening because the repositoy is huge. If you have a small repo, like openwrt you do not need swap with opkg and it is fast.10:35
rafawpwrak: yes, I guess that.. because the script is a shit and it works without swap to do the task10:36
kristianpaulrafa: you can drop some stuff in the repo, no?10:37
wpwrak(huge repository) still ... how many packages ? and how big is the typical meta-data in a package ?10:37
kristianpauli dont need all the repo for my Ben10:37
kristianpauljust popular and suguested packages10:37
kristianpaulmay be an alternative light repo10:37
rafakristianpaul: you can do that :).. I mean, I do not have idea how to do the repo smaller properly. We can modify the "packages" files which tells opkg which packages are available. You can modify that to have just a small thing, and opkg will be happy10:38
rafakristianpaul: but anyway, why would we like to have a small repo?.. is not openwrt small? we could use openwrt if we just need a small one10:39
kristianpaulsmall is relative ;)10:40
rafawpwrak: around 15.000 packages. metadata? what do you mean?.. the data which tells opkg which is the name of package, version, files, dependences?10:40
wpwrakrafa: yes, that sort of information10:40
rafawpwrak: then that metadata is into some text files.. you can have just one if you want.. Currently, there is just one huge of those text files.. :10:41
rafaJlime$ du -sh /var/lib/opkg/packages-mipsel10:42
rafa11.0M   /var/lib/opkg/packages-mipsel10:42
rafawpwrak: and opkg, if I read well some forums or posts a time ago does a dependes tree on memory.. but then also when it downloads the packages it tries to unpackage and process the package on memory, so that tasks also fails10:43
wpwrakoh. i see ... so ... 11 MB. probably with a lot of redundancy. shouldn't take more than ~5 MB of RAM.10:43
wpwrak(unpack in memory) maybe that's the problem then10:44
rafawpwrak: yes, that is a problem, but before to download the packages opkg also fails to decide which packages to download10:51
rafawpwrak: so there is another problem before to know which packages to download as well.10:52
lekernelhttps://community.c-base.org/event/fpga-introduction-workshop10:52
logictheoI've put the battery in the Ben Nanonote and I connected the usb cable afterwards. There is a red light(which I think means it is charging or connected). Is it charging?10:57
logictheoIf it is charging will the red light change to something else when it is charged?(if it is being charged)10:59
logictheoI'm looking in the irc logs (which are helpful, searched for 'red light' and I find lots of info)11:01
logictheoI found this "the red led should turn on if it charges the battery"11:05
logictheoWonderful search feature for the irc logs. I also like the colors that are used.11:06
mthdoes anyone have experience with SDIO bluetooth cards?11:09
logictheothis which I found in the irclogs will also help me I think "remember to charge the battery for a while first time :P (it's an urband legend?)"11:18
wolfspraullogictheo: you speak good about the irclogs - thanks! :-)11:20
wolfspraulone thing that bugs me is that somehow utf-8 is broken somewhere, accented and foreign characters are garbled. need to look into it one day, maybe something simple...11:20
logictheo:)11:21
B_LizzardHi, larsc, any update on the kernel?12:31
larscB_Lizzard: nope12:44
B_LizzardOK12:51
zearB_Lizzard, you mind to try commander genius?12:53
B_LizzardWhere might that be?12:54
zearB_Lizzard, http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/CGenius12:58
zearB_Lizzard, also get the datafiles for win32 version from here: http://clonekeenplus.sourceforge.net/download.html13:02
wpwraklogictheo: (charge batt) i think it's an urban legend in this case :) you needed the long initial charge with older battery chemistries, and everyone copied these instructions ever since, even for lithium batteries. however, there can be lithium batteries that do need a full cycle before their control logic will be fully initialized.13:19
wpwraklogictheo: but the ben's battery doesn't have this sort of fancy internals :)13:19
wpwrakrafa: (package dependencies) okay, but if you have /var/lib/opkg/packages-mipsel/*, you could calculate the dependencies from this file, correct ?13:20
rafawpwrak: yes.. the exact file is /var/lib/opkg/packages-mipsel .. and you can calculate the dependencies from there. In fact the script reads that file14:29
rafaand opkg as well14:30
wpwrakso it all should be easy :)14:55
wpwrakis there a /var/lib/opkg/packages-mipsel somewhere where i could easily download it ?14:55
kristianpaulwee now i have my own 3D printer coneyor :D14:57
wpwrakkristianpaul: now we can close down china and move all the mass production to you :)14:59
kristianpaulnah ;)14:59
rafawpwrak: yes :) http://jlime.com/downloads/repository/muffinman/ipk/mipsel/Packages15:02
kristianpaulwpwrak: wich is the folder in your wpan with the sofware that goes to the ben?15:03
kristianpaulatrf?15:03
kristianpaulah15:06
kristianpaulthe TODO is really informative15:06
wpwrakkristianpaul: tools/15:07
wpwrakTODO is scary :) still so much to do ...15:07
kristianpauli realiced that15:08
wpwrakrafa: whee, that should compress down to almost nothing :-)15:09
wpwrakrafa: especially if you read it twice. in the first run, you just collect package names and version, in the second run, you resolve the references. so references directly become pointers.15:10
wpwrakor, if you want to make it really small, use 16 bites for the package index and maybe 8 bits for the version ;-)15:11
viricI'd like to reverse engineer a simple usb device16:49
viricAny advises? I have a windows program that can talk with it.16:49
viricIt's a temperature sensor.16:50
wpwrakif it's so simple, it may be quicker to make your own, open hardware, naturally ;-)17:05
virichehe17:05
viricwell, it's more about the case and all that.17:05
viricIt records temperature for days and days17:05
viricand humidity17:05
viricI've just seen it has this MCU: http://www.keil.com/dd/docs/datashts/silabs/c8051f32x.pdf17:06
viricand there is a chip that has a 24EC512 written in it, from motorola. I guess a little. I can't see it properly.17:06
viriccan it be a memory?17:07
viricah. 24LC512, from microchip17:08
wpwrakcould be .. but that would be odd17:08
wpwrakok, big difference ;-)17:09
wpwrakhttp://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/21754j.pdf17:09
wpwrakokay, it is memory. an EEPROM. that make sense then. the c8051f32x don't have an EEPROM.17:09
viricaha17:10
wpwraknow you just need to reverse-engineer the sensors and then you can make your own firmware. sdcc supports the c8051f32x series. and there's an in-circuit flash programmer for them in the qi-hardware project f32xbase17:10
viricah, wow. what a coincidence.17:11
wpwrak(added it ... almost two days ago :)17:11
viricreally?17:11
viricI own this thing since years.17:12
wpwrakyup. before i used the openmoko freerunner plus a debug board for programming.17:12
viricit's an i8051 architecutre?17:12
wpwraki use the chip in a number of designs, idbg, atusb, and cntr17:12
wpwrakyup17:12
viricI did a project on ds5000 loooong a go17:12
viricago17:12
wpwrakwith built-in usb17:12
viricIt should have a very good sleep power consumption17:13
viricbecause this thing has a battery that lasts very long17:13
wpwrakit seems to have very little leakage, yes. alas, the minimum voltage is relatively high. so you can't use a CR2032 or such under load.17:14
viricit has a 3,6V battery17:15
wpwrakwell, at least that's what i conclude from the data sheet. maybe it runs well far outside the specs.17:15
wpwrakokay, that helps :_17:15
viriccr2032 is 3V, is it?17:15
wpwrakyup17:15
viricIt has another chip: IR1C / P728L17:15
viricit looks fat, and with a band at a side, like a diode17:15
virictwo pin17:15
viric(maybe I should not call it a 'chip')17:16
wpwrakand minimum voltage is around 2.7 V. 300 mV isn't much, particularly for batteries with a high resistance.17:16
viricwhat can that ir1c be?17:17
wpwrakdunno. maybe a sensor ?17:18
wpwrakah no, seems to be a diode indeed. here's something similar: http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/10bq015pbf.pdf17:19
virichttp://www.warensortiment.de/technische-daten/images/klimalogger-pce-ht71.jpg it is the whole device17:19
wpwrakactually, that's the one :) pre-lead-free, it seems. you said it was old ? :)17:20
viricwpwrak: how did you find that out?17:20
wpwraki asked an old friend of mine, google :)17:20
virichm I don't talk Google that good17:21
viricspeak17:21
viricPYWWX  => 2nd digit of the year? Is that 2007 maybe?17:21
wpwraksearch for ir1c, then it's somewhere around the end of the 2nd page17:22
viricP means Lead Free, I see17:22
viricwpwrak: everyone sees google results different17:22
wpwrakah ,right. lead-free. so not that old :)17:22
viricgoogle knows too much about us to not to use that information17:22
viricnow I'll solder back one cable that got broken while I opened it.17:23
wpwrak:)17:23
viricafter assembling it, the manufacturer put SuperGlue3 (instant glue) for the cables... grr17:25
wpwraki do that too :)17:26
viricbad. this is bad.17:29
wpwraknaw, only way to make them stay in place without elaborate mechanics17:30
viricthen you have to replace the cable if you have to disassemble17:31
wpwrakyeh, then i scrape it off :) here's an example: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/f32x/c2ben-run1.jpg17:31
wpwrakthe cables are superglued. and then there's transparent silicone on top.17:32
wpwrak(these are cables for in-circuit-programming a c8051f32x from the ben)17:32
viricoh nice17:33
viricthey look good17:34
viriccan the sdio pins be used from userland ?17:34
viricah, they are in gpio in fact, isn't it17:34
wpwraksure. haven't you seen the blinkenlights ? http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/blinken/blink.ogg17:35
viricis it a film?17:35
wpwrakyup, they're gpios17:35
wpwrakyes17:35
viricgreat film :) I did not see it17:36
wpwrakthe project is here: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/17:36
viricbefore17:36
viricgood17:37
wpwrakthere's a bit more about it here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-01#NanoNote17:37
viricso, here I am, qemu running windows, loading usb_debug...17:37
wpwrakeek :)17:37
wpwrakyou could just figure out how the circuit works and make your own firmware.17:38
viricthis is part of knowing how it works :)17:38
viricI'll see.17:38
viricI remember I once surrended on this approach already.17:38
wpwrakwell, good luck then ! :)17:42
virichehe17:43
viricthank you17:43
viricwpwrak: is that f321 cheap?18:01
viricwpwrak: do you think I could 'download' the program in it?18:01
wpwrakhttp://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=336-1261-ND18:02
wpwrakdepends on whether they read-protected it18:02
wpwrakyou can always replace it, though18:02
larschm... http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-01#SIE i could watch that video all day :)18:41
viricwpwrak: I think I already got every byte of the protocol.19:20
viricTime for libusb.19:20
kristianpaulmake: warning:  Clock skew detected.  Your build may be incomplete.21:07
kristianpaulWTF?21:08
kristianpaulrafa: jlime clock need to be automatically updated some how..21:09
kristianpauli wonder if usbboot canl help on that..21:09
Action: kristianpaul installing ntpdate21:12
larschm, you could indeed write a tool which transfers the current time from your laptop to the rtc clock on the nanonote.21:39
kristianpaullarsc: using usb boot  method?21:41
larscyes21:41
larscshouldn't be to complicated21:41
kristianpaulah it could a feature (bug) for usbboot it self !21:42
kristianpaulbetter than a separate app sint?21:42
kristianpaulisnt*21:42
larscwell it's easier21:42
kristianpaulbut if i'm flashing will be nice do all this clock with out have to exit from usboot21:43
kristianpauli mean what you have mind is like a hello world for bootinng the nano by usb then write yo RTC local time21:44
larscwhat i meant was that it is easier to make it part of usbboot instead of a seperate tool21:44
kristianpaulbut i guess in need boot?21:44
kristianpaulahh !21:44
kristianpaulgreat21:44
larscmaybe 100 lines of code or so21:45
larscprobably even less21:45
kristianpaulwtf i suposed this TP25 pin was free or use, and i'm getting ramdon readings..21:46
kristianpaullets how behave after change its mode21:46
kristianpaulhey i can commint directly from jlime, i wonder if gis is on the repo..21:49
viricwpwrak: I won. I can use the device on linux! :)21:55
qi-bot[commit] kristianpaul: Some blink tests http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-gps-sdr/6888e6f22:01
qi-bot[commit] kristianpaul: updated readme and added map info http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-gps-sdr/b25997222:03
wpwrakviric: nice ! that was really quick22:36
--- Sun Oct 24 201000:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!