#qi-hardware IRC log for Saturday, 2010-10-16

qwebirc23069in nanonote how much memory is required to boot the system and work properly01:44
qwebirc23069also if I am using micro SD card and will it be allocated to particular inode always or different ?01:45
qwebirc23069anybody answer my query02:06
qwebirc23069how can i develop a GUI application fro nanonote06:17
nitin_guptacan anybody help be building GUI based application for nanonote06:22
wpwrakthere are a few people who have done GUI stuff on the NN. may take a while for them to wake up, though :)06:33
kyaknitin_gupta: what's your question?06:43
nitin_guptaI want to develop a GUI based application06:53
nitin_guptahow to develop it and compile  it06:53
zearnitin_gupta, first you have to choose the gui library you want to use, then you develop your app and finally you use the mips cross compiler to build a binary07:09
zeari haven't been paying attention to the default owrt distro, but it probably is still framebuffer only, so your only choice would be libSDL (unless qt or gtk for framebuffer are ported already). There are however X11 based distros for the nanonote, namely Debian and JLime. Both should offer you a greater variety of gui libs to choose07:11
wolfspraulzear: sdl, qt and gtk+ all work (minus bugs) in the OpenWrt images07:13
wolfspraulbut yes it's all framebuffer based, unlike Jlime which is all X-based07:13
wolfspraulkristianpaul: do you mind if we rename the wiki page GPS_Open_Stack to GPS_Free_Stack?07:14
zearnitin_gupta, SDL is the most portable one, it can run on non-posix architectures, like wince. The problem with libSDL is it doesn't offer you any ready gui elements. You'd have to design the whole gui from scratch. But it is also it's feature, as you can design any graphical app you want, there are no predefined gui limits like in qt or gtk07:16
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Fixed typo in panasonic.gen affecting ERJ-P14 parts. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/71c15a507:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: stackpole.gen produced only garbage. Fixed it. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/d4d34d707:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: boom/mbq2lst: utility to generate a KiCad-style BOM from a more human-friendly http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/719070607:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Test query to exercise the big resistor database we now have. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/df8843007:21
wpwrakwolfspraul: here's one more file extension for you: .mbq, for manual bom query07:21
wpwraknow, i can finally do my resistor shopping in style ;-)07:22
wpwrakwell, should add yageo to the database too. they're the 3rd major source.07:35
nitin_guptaif I develop a application in qt, will it run on NN ?07:36
wolfspraulI think NanoMap is written in Qt07:37
wolfspraulimgv is written in SDL07:37
wolfspraulis Stardict using GTK? might be...07:37
wolfspraulI would suggest to use an existing app as a starting point.07:37
nitin_guptafrom where I can the source of existing app ?07:37
nitin_guptaas you said Nanomap is written in qt, then if I make a project in qt then how to cross compile it for NN ?07:39
wolfspraulfollow what nanomap does07:39
nitin_guptawhat ????07:39
wolfspraulsorry you have to study/experiment yourself a little, I can't walk you through the entire procedure07:41
wolfspraulstart with openwrt, build a package (any package, take the smallest)07:41
wolfspraulthen try to build nanomap07:41
nitin_guptayou just tell me the cross compilation procedure07:41
wolfspraulat that point you already have an excellent starting point for your own qt-based app07:41
wolfspraulhave you played with openwrt?07:41
nitin_guptanope07:42
wolfspraulso that's a good starting point, www.openwrt.org07:42
kyakhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image07:42
nitin_guptaI have developed console based application and it is running properly but no idea about GUI one07:42
wpwrak... which brings us back to the quest for a toolchain/SDK like the one we had in Openmoko :)07:42
kyaknitin_gupta: you should spend some time reading07:42
wolfspraulwow great, you mean you have already cross-compiled an app for the NanoNote?07:42
nitin_guptayes07:43
nitin_guptabut that is just a simple single C file07:43
wolfspraulthen why do you ask me about walking you through the cross compilation procedure?07:43
wpwrakit's not nice at all that cross-compilation gets tied to the guts of the distro build process like this. granted, openwrt is less suffering than, say, OE, but still ...07:43
wolfspraulhow/where did you get the cross compiler?07:43
wolfspraulwpwrak: actually OpenWrt is able to generate nice SDKs and 'ImageBuilder' including everything you need to get started07:44
wolfspraulwe just haven't foudn the discipline yet to regularly publish these things, and documentation for how to use them07:44
nitin_guptaok07:45
nitin_guptadont worry I will put all my findings on my blog for all NN users and developers07:45
nitin_guptathe only thing left with me is GUI based app .07:46
wpwrakwolfspraul, nitin_gupta: sounds cool, thanks !07:46
wpwrakxiangfu: a was 50 seconds faster ;-)09:40
xiangfuwpwrak :)09:41
xiangfuwpwrak: by reading Bas and your email about dpkg-shalips warning. I still don't know which is your decide ?  (sorry for my bad English)09:44
xiangfuwpwrak: I think about the Debian package I just ignore those warning.09:44
wpwrakxiangfu: ah, i haven't replied yet, sorry. i think just ignoring the warnings is okay for now.09:46
xiangfuwpwrak: ok.09:47
wpwrakxiangfu: fped isn't the sort of thing you'd run on a very constrained system anyway, so having a few unnecessary library dependencies isn't too bad. (besides, everyone else probably has them too ;-)09:47
xiangfuwpwrak: ok.09:48
wpwrakxiangfu: and it seems a clean solution to the problem is something distribution makers, whoever maintains pkg-config, and the binutils guys will have to figure out. i guess that may take a while :)09:49
xiangfuwpwrak: after add "-Wl,--as-needed" to Makefile line 40 : CFLGAS... then recompile the package. I still got those warning. if there something wrong? I think I add it to a correct line.09:50
wpwrakwhen linking, CFLAGS aren't used :) you could either introduce LDFLAGS or just add it to the "fped:" rule directly09:51
wpwrakactually ... let me add LDFLAGS. that doesn't hurt.09:52
wpwrakdone. r598609:53
xiangfuwpwrak: thanks. :)09:53
xiangfuwpwrak: git svn rebase ing...   then create a new debian package with 5986.09:55
wpwrakit's not a change you need to push if you don't want to. the result is exactly the same as in the previous revision.09:56
wpwrakit's now just a little easier to add linker flags.09:56
wpwrakah, if you want to, you can now of course override LDFLAGS in the package-making script. it's a little dangerous because LDFLAGS may be non-empty in the future, but for now, that would be an easy way to add -Wl,--as-needed to the package build process.09:58
xiangfuwpwrak: yes. I just want sync to upstream since I already know there is a commit. I think I will take 5986 as a TAG now.09:59
wpwrakalright10:02
xiangfuwpwrak: I want learn more hardware stuff. Can you recommend some books for me. thanks.10:05
xiangfuwpwrak: I want understand more about 'clock' 'bus' etc.10:05
xiangfuwpwrak: thanks.10:06
wpwrakmost of the time, the best book is life ;-) there are lots of very specialized things you need to know, and the general books usually don't cover them. however, there are a few useful ones ... lemme look them up ...10:06
wpwrakfor a general introduction, "Designing Embedded Hardware" by John Catoulis (O'Reilly) isn't too bad10:08
wpwrakthen there's "The Circuit Designer's Companion" by Tim Williams (Elsevier). it's about electronics in general and at a slightly more advanced level. it tells you want to look for to make sure your circuits actually work in real life, not only on paper.10:10
xiangfuwpwrak: very thanks. (first try to find this book in China :)10:14
wpwrakyeah, that's the two i would recommend. there are more detailed books on electronics and some of the theoretical stuff, but i haven't found one that's really an overall big improvement over what those two have. sometimes the more detailed books have better material on some very specific problem, but that's usually a matter of luck.10:14
wpwrakthey're pretty well-globalized: i got the o'reilly in india and the other in taiwan :)10:16
xiangfustock exhausted in amazon.cn10:23
qbjectMorning everyone.10:24
qbjectWolfspraul: are there nonfunctional bnns out there somewhere available to someone intersted in doing some mechanical reverse-engineering?10:26
wpwrakup next on "does it blend ?" the ben nanoparticles ;-)10:28
qbjectWhat you talkin' 'bout, wpwrak?10:29
wolfspraulqbject: he. you try to challenge wpwrak ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ben-scans/10:29
wolfspraulno right now I don't have anything. even finding the parts for Werner took a bit of time, and some are still missing.10:29
wolfspraulI think tuxbrain has 3 or 4 returned devices, maybe they could be used, but give me a bit of time.10:30
wolfspraulI will definitely remember your request and we can do something if you are interested.10:30
qbjectWolfspraul: I'm well aware of Werner's good work. My interest is designing a housing which can be programmed by hand or even be made on manual equipment, rather than contouring or injection-molding.10:31
qbjectThanks! If nothing comes up I'll likely buy a spare from djbclark, but I appreciate you keeping an ear open.10:32
wpwrakqbject: (nanoparticles) "mechanical reverse-engineering" has a bit of that sound :)10:56
wpwrakqbject: maybe ask on the list of there's anyone not too far from you with a broken one ?10:57
wpwraks/of/if/10:57
qbjectOhhh. I see. "Yeah, we'll just feed it to the gray goo and see what comes out."10:57
qbjectMm. Will do.10:58
qbjectIs wolfspraul located in China?10:59
larscafaik yes11:03
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Corrected build rule for .equ files in boom/dist/dk/ http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/58bca0e11:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ds-catq.pl: allow selecting multiple values and added a test mode. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/331094e11:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added Yageo RC series chip resistors. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/bf0de4511:12
wpwrak9099 parts in the database :)11:13
qbjectThanks, larsc.11:14
qbjectTime to go play carpenter.11:14
dangbinghoohello12:04
dangbinghoocan i the qi-hardware hardware design files (kicad version) ?12:05
dangbinghoosorry, can i download the qi-hardware hardware design files (kicad version) ?12:05
qi-bot[commit] carlos: fixing xmode initial delay http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/ee1072412:35
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Adding FTDI to JTAG/PROG schematic page. http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/d499f7d13:56
kanzuredo any of you spend all day in front of solidworks, autocad, catia, pro-e, solidedge, or anything like that?14:17
wpwrakkanzure: i don't think so. but some of us spend a bit of time in front of heekcad, and of course kicad (electronics)15:55
kanzurewpwrak: yeah, i use heekscad too ( http://heekscad.org/ )18:04
kanzurebut not what i'm looking for. thx18:04
kanzurew/in 818:05
kanzurep18:05
kanzurecrap18:05
remfarkashello, do u maybe know where i could get some help about a weird graphic card error?19:57
qi-bot[commit] carlos: Removing MM lm32 board http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/4900c7921:03
qwebirc35353hello, I was wondering if I could get some help21:49
qwebirc35353I was trying to put debian on an sd card, but I have failed21:51
rafaqwebirc35353: hi.. where did you get the instructions?21:51
qwebirc35353I got it from the site itself21:51
qwebirc35353let me get you the url21:52
qwebirc35353http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Debian21:52
wolfspraulrafa: ahh, hi! :-)21:52
qwebirc35353hello21:52
rafawolfspraul: hey! hi :)21:53
wolfspraulI wanted to ask you for a favor, do you have a simple screenshot of the latest Muffinman beta, right after it boots?21:53
wolfspraultaken on the device, not with a camera21:53
rafaqwebirc35353: let me chech those instructions and I will help you21:53
wolfspraulI am working on the latest community news21:53
wolfspraulhttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-0121:53
rafawolfspraul: let me check.. I should, if no I get it easy ;)21:53
qwebirc35353ok21:53
wolfspraulneed your help a litte...21:54
wolfspraulI also need a nice line about the latest Jlime status21:54
wolfsprauland at the bottom under 'plans for the future' I want to say something about the Jlime/OpenWrt dual-boot plan we have now21:54
wolfspraulthere is still a lot of work to make it a reality, so not sure what exactly we want to say about it, or who21:54
wolfspraulrafa: the latest Jlime beta can still play mp3, right?21:55
rafawolfspraul: Okey, no problem, I will upload the screenshot and also I will write the status thing21:55
wolfspraulyes, great21:55
wpwrakhmm, debian needs a very recent u-boot. how come ?21:56
qwebirc35353rafa: could did you find something21:56
wolfsprauland we do have to fully eradicate mp3, at least for anything we are talking about and linking to from the qi servers21:56
rafawolfspraul: well, the latest Jlime beta could play mp3, but no with gmu.. and we have not said nothing that it can.. it is just mplayer which was built with many codecs.. But well, I have not seen people playing mp3 with muffinman because we never said that mplayer is okey for that :)21:56
qwebirc35353wpwrak: I do not know why, but I did it21:56
wpwrak(trying to see if there's a clue why so many people end up with bricked NNs after trying to install debian)21:57
rafawolfspraul: But, we already were talking to make a beta release without those mp3/mp4 problems inside21:57
wpwrakqwebirc35353: does your NN still boot or has it joined the ranks of the bricked-by-debian ? :)21:57
wolfspraulrafa: that is not enough. the patent owners are not stupid and the technicians they have on staff will have an easy time demoing mp3 playing to their lawyers...21:57
wolfspraulrafa: maybe we want to postpone the Jlime news to the 12/1 community news then?21:58
wolfspraul11/1 is overloaded anyway21:58
qwebirc35353wpwrak: my NN still boots openwrt, but I can not boot debian off the SD21:58
rafawolfspraul: yes, I know. So as we already discussed we (I) will make a beta4 version for qi/resellers without patents problems21:58
wolfspraulyes, I think in 12/1 we can make a bigger Jlime news section, I like that better21:58
wolfspraulwhat do you think?21:58
wolfspraulif you look at the 11/1 news, you could fill an average tech magazine with that content already... :-)21:58
rafawolfspraul: yes, I agree, because that was my idea : to release beta4 with a version without patent problems21:59
wolfspraulgreat!21:59
wolfspraulthen let's do this21:59
wolfspraulI move the jlime snippets from 11/1 to 12/121:59
rafaokey, great21:59
wolfspraulwhen you have a beta4 screenshot (right after boot), upload it into the wiki and embed in the 12/1 news22:00
wolfsprauljust fill in whatever you want to say in 12/1, it's a wiki...22:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: (tech magazine) that's why you need an 11/18 ;-)22:00
qwebirc35353Just out in the open, I wonder if anyone has been SUCCESSFULLY able to use debian22:00
rafawolfspraul: okey, I will.22:00
rafaqwebirc35353: sorry, let me check. Which bootloader do you have?22:01
wpwrakwolfspraul: remember the old c't ? monthly and the size of a telephone book. then they switched to twice a month. a good example to copy :)22:01
rafaqwebirc35353: you know that=22:01
rafa?22:01
qwebirc35353thats ok, I understand you guys are busy22:01
qwebirc35353let me get that information22:01
wpwrakgrrr. 10/18. that 11 keeps on confusing me :-(22:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: it's too much work on my end. I'd rather do bi-monthly even.22:02
wolfspraulI also need to spend time on getting people to join, that's more important than me doing this or that.22:02
qwebirc35353this is the bootloader that I am using openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-u-boot.bin22:02
wolfsprauland I need a lot of time to spread our news link to people, because the problem of most news is that they are not read by anybody :-)22:02
wolfspraulbut I agree 11/1 is too much so I already moved some to 12/1, maybe will more more22:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: (no time) maybe try again to outsource it then ?22:03
wolfspraulI enjoy, it also forces me to look at what's going on.22:03
wolfspraulfor example I am currently git cloning Takeshi Matuya's Linux on LM32 tree :-)22:03
wolfspraulMatsuya22:03
wolfspraulI cannot always just point people to that URL but I actually don't know at all what is going on...22:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you see the 11/1 news? they are getting in shape :-)22:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: (enjoy) yes, but if you can't keep up with the news, something's wrong22:04
rafawpwrak: the debian wiki page at qi says that you should update just uboot.. if you do that then maybe you break the rest of nand?.. No sure, but I need to nerase the whole nand when flashing stuff, then flash uboot, kernel and nand rootfs.22:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: when will you close 11/1 ?22:04
wolfspraulSIE is crazy short on facts, I have to dig out some things.22:04
qwebirc35353wpwrak: so people have brick their NN from flashing debian?22:05
wolfspraulthese guys are just not talking... :-)22:05
wpwrakrafa: hmm, that would be a candidate22:05
rafaqwebirc35353: that looks like a proper uboot. What did you get with debian?. I mean... which are the symptoms?22:05
wpwrakqwebirc35353: whenever someone shows up here with a bricked NN, it's debian. not sure if there are so many people trying debian that this is just the normal rate of mishap or if something's wrong there22:06
qwebirc35353rafa: well when I stick the sd card and press M will powering on, it says file system not found22:06
rafaqwebirc35353: okey.. I understand that you did an ext2 filesystem on first partition on sd right?22:07
qwebirc35353wpwrak: well I assume if one person did it that it could be atleast done once22:07
qwebirc35353which I have yet to have done yet22:07
rafaqwebirc35353: did you install debian from openwrt or from your pc?22:07
rafaqwebirc35353: how big is your  SD? how big is your first partition?22:07
rafaqwebirc35353: now you have a couple of question that you need to reply :)22:08
wpwrakrafa: a test would be to flash u-boot, then change something trivial (such that it doesn't break, maybe some progress message) and flash again22:08
qwebirc35353I did have an ext filesystem put it was not the first partition22:08
wpwrakrafa: if you get the new, all is well, if you get  old | new  then we know what's happening22:08
rafaqwebirc35353: then there is your problem22:08
qwebirc35353rafa I installed it from my pc22:08
rafaqwebirc35353: you need ext2 on first partition22:08
qwebirc35353my SD is 16GB22:08
wpwrakrafa: (flash without prior erase, like the wiki page suggests)22:08
rafaqwebirc35353: uboot just reads the first partition as ext222:08
rafaqwebirc35353: so if you want debian there.. you need to creat the ext2 fs on first partition on your sd22:09
wolfspraulqwebirc35353: that's a bug in u-boot22:09
wolfspraulu-boot's ext2 handling is buggy for large SD cards or large partitions/filesystems22:09
wolfspraulI have never seen it with cards up to 2 gb22:09
rafaqwebirc35353: and the SD looks big as well.. like wolfspraul is telling22:09
qwebirc35353rafa: when I put the SD back into my computer the file system was not there anymore22:09
wolfspraulwith 4 and 8 it's hit and miss, all my 16 cards show the bug22:10
wolfspraulxiangfu is on it22:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: that may be a nice project for carlos' students: make an sd card simulator (SD implemented in the SIE's FPGA) that accesses a real file for the data22:10
rafaqwebirc35353: if you can get a smaller sd I would advise you to try to create an ext2 fs on first partition.. and if you can try to make it no so big (2gb should be okey)22:10
wolfspraulqwebirc35353: you can try a small partition on the big card, say 1 gb or so22:10
qwebirc35353the lowest SD card I have is a 4GB22:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: that way, it may be easier to debug such problems22:11
wolfspraultry with a small partition, even on the 16gb card, and let us know22:11
rafaqwebirc35353: that should be okey.. try to make a first ext2 partitiont there and  put debian22:11
wolfspraulit's a simple little software bug, but annoying22:11
wolfspraulrafa: I moved the Jlime news to 12/1 http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-12-0122:12
wolfspraulwhen you have beta4, screenshot, dual-booting plans etc. just update the page22:12
qwebirc35353wolfspraul: ok I will try a smaller partion22:12
rafawpwrak: uboot flashing test.. yeah.. that should show something I guess22:12
rafawolfspraul: great.. thanks for that.. I will fill the details when something is ready22:13
rafaqwebirc35353: remember that you should do the ext2 partition as first partition22:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: you may want to consider making an end-of-the-year update, too. first of all, you may be away/busy around 1/1, so you avoid piling up too much, and second, many people will have time to play over the holidays, so there may be a larger amount of news early in january22:14
qwebirc35353rafa: is there a way to do this via fdisk /dev/sdb1 method as posted on the site22:14
qwebirc35353or should I just do the partion via gpart on my linux machine?22:14
wpwrakqwebirc35353: fdisk /dev/sdb   ! not /dev/sdb122:15
rafaqwebirc35353: mm? what do you mean?.. you should run fdisk /dev/sdb22:15
rafaqwebirc35353: and you can do that on you linux machine (PC)22:15
rafayour22:15
qwebirc35353wpwrak: yes, that was a typo, sorry22:15
wpwrakqwebirc35353: (typo) darn. i was hoping to have found the problem :)22:16
qwebirc35353lol, thanks for trying22:16
rafaqwebirc35353: something important that you maybe already know.. but you need to mount before "tar xvzf debian rootfs" and then UMOUNT the thing22:17
qwebirc35353ok22:17
wolfspraulscary to see us juggling over /dev/sdwhatever here. if you are root, the disk you are booting from may only be a character away...22:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: compared to learning how to make nitroglycerine, this learning process is quite gentle :)22:21
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added a warning that things under boom/ don't make much sense yet. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/f0519fc23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Improve scalability by splitting the distributor cache. Additional cleanup and http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/57fc0bd23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved resistor tolerance decoding to lib/tol.inc http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/20517e123:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: boom/dist/dk/dk-catq.pl: category regexp was mis-designed and it had a typo. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/310e88623:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added Yageo CC series of ceramic SMT capacitors. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/0b24c4323:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Removed knowledge about distributors from manufacturers and (partially) from http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/83d4e7023:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: dk-catq.pl: allow selection of top category as well http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/046ae8523:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Yageo CC...R50 weren't recognized. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/9ddc70f23:38
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added Murata GRM series of ceramic SMT capacitors. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/dff11db23:38
wpwrak10411 parts :)23:38
wolfspraulwow23:38
wolfspraul:-)23:38
wpwrakactually .. i should include parts without stock as well23:39
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