#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2010-10-10

wpwrakwolfgang: (layout) nice !01:07
wpwrak(connector) hmm the first question would be what choices you actually have. e.g., is whatever connects to already given ?01:08
wpwrakif 2 mm is inconvenient, also splitting it into two connectors could be an option. it all depends on what it is for. e.g., for daughterboards, two connectors would be much better than just one. for other things, no.01:11
wpwraki don't know much about 2 mm header sizes, but the dimensions don't look insane :) (not excessively small, for instance)01:12
kyakrafa: i have some problems installing any package on Jlime03:47
kyakCollected errors: * pkg_get_installed_files: fopen(//usr/lib/opkg/info/pam-plugin-exec.list): No such file or directory03:47
kyak * pkg_get_installed_files: fopen(//usr/lib/opkg/info/libxmu6.list): No such file or directory03:47
kyakdo you know what could be the problem?03:48
kyak(want to compare build speed under Jlime and OpenWRT)04:26
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: Add unbricking method http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/9aff93c04:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: the first batch of USB IDs made it into usb.ids, I submitted the next 2 today06:19
wolfspraulthanks for pushing me on this a bit :-) sometimes I'm a bit slow to get up to speed on things.06:19
wolfspraulnext I need to look into this whole Ethernet MAC thing06:20
B_LizzardHi, is there anyone here that can help me with compiling nupdf?07:36
B_LizzardI'm getting undefined references to functions which are not in mupdf07:36
B_Lizzardpdf_droppage, for instance07:36
B_LizzardI suspect those are old functions which are not in mupdf 0.7.007:37
B_LizzardYeah, OK07:38
B_LizzardThe functions are in mupdf 0.607:38
kyakB_Lizzard: the nupdf was written with older mupdf version in mind07:49
B_LizzardI'm looking at the differences and will probably make a patch if all goes well07:49
kyaktherefore nupdf is not compiled now.. i've contacted the author, but it seems that he doesn't have a lot of time/interest07:49
B_LizzardI made a bug report on the google code page07:49
kyakanyway, the good news is that all requirements for nupdf are ported to openwrt07:50
B_LizzardYou mean the libraries?07:50
kyaknow only need the patch for nupdf you are talking about :)07:50
kyakyes, the libaries07:50
kyakB_Lizzard: if you sucess, that would be super great07:50
B_LizzardApparently, pdf_droppage became pdf_freepage07:51
B_LizzardSo at least I'm on the right track07:51
kyakthere are some other changes you are going to see07:51
kyakseems that mupdf library has changed a lot07:52
kyakB_Lizzard: so, are you using the mupdf and other libs from openwrt-packages?07:53
kyak(just to make sure you are not doing double work porting dependencies for nupdf)07:53
B_LizzardNo, I work on jlime07:53
wpwrakwolfspraul: (usb) great, congratulations ! :) with the next spin of linux distros, lsusb will then proudly announce it when it finds qi-hw any devices07:53
B_LizzardBut the work done should be useful for all07:53
wpwrakwolfspraul: (mac) yup. wpan will probably need a company_id for the MACs.07:54
kyakB_Lizzard: indeed.. if you get it right, please let me know.. i will port to to openwrt then07:54
B_LizzardSure thing07:54
B_LizzardI'm testing it on my pc first, see if it compiles07:54
wpwrak(typos) and as usual, it shows then the first thing i do after rubbing the sleep out of my eyes is IRC ...08:00
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you see this 2.00 mm breakout connector thing andres brought up a few hours ago?08:03
wolfspraulhe's thinking about a 2*25 2.00 mm pitch connector for xue08:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes. i wrote a few lines about it into the empty channel :)08:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: per se, ther's nothing wrong with 2 mm. it's not as common a 2.54 mm but far from exotic08:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: there is of course the question of what it is used for. e.g., if you want to connect to arbitrary other things of the DIY type, then it's not an ideal choice.08:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: if it's just some board-to-board connector, why not. may even go smaller.08:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: if 2.54 mm would be desirable but there's no room, then there's the question whether it has to be one connector or if it could be multiple08:09
wolfspraulwell I don't know what Andres or others are thinking, but what comes to my mind is LCM, keyboard, battery controller08:10
wolfspraulI don't even know whether it is theoretically possible, for now I just assume an fpga can do EVERYTHING :-)08:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: so it's extensions okay. do they have a specific form factor or placement ? such as parallel to the xue pcb, for instance08:14
wolfspraulno it's far from that, at least in my mind08:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: its really hard to say what components fits without some spec :) (like that "we need a cheaper adc". one could frame that one ;-)08:16
wolfspraulmore about proof of concept, write software (IC codes)08:16
wolfspraulit's called an 'expansion header'08:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: ic codes ? you mean verilog ?08:16
wolfspraulwhy not. if it can be driven from software running on top of the softcore, also fine08:17
wolfspraulwe have to decide about the expansion connector before knowing exactly what the expansions will be08:17
wpwrakif the expansion header should aim for maximum flexibility for DIY projects, then 2.54 mm is better than 2 mm. it's easier to get connectors and since it's bigger, you can also do some tweaks in a pinch.08:17
wolfspraulyes but maybe too big08:18
wolfspraulthe board is nice small, would be a pity to make it bigger only for the expansion connector08:18
wpwrakif the idea is to mount boards in parallel to the xue pcb, you could also have multiple connectors, so you don't have to cram everything on one. e.g., one on each side, so the 2nd board will also have a reasonably good mechanical connection as well08:18
wolfsprauland 2.00 is not as bad as 1.25 or whatever other smaller connectors there are08:18
wolfspraulI think that would eat up far too much space08:19
wpwrakdepends. also 2 mm isn't all that small.08:19
wolfspraulI don't even know where the proposed one should fit, see http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xue/layout08:20
wpwrakyeah, i've been wondering about that too :-)08:20
wpwrakmaybe on the side08:20
wolfspraulspeaking about that layout PNG, do you think it's easy to automatically generate something like that from KiCad after committs as well?08:22
wolfspraulthose are made with pcbnew, right?08:22
wpwrakhm, good question that one. i've never seen one that looks quite like this. lemme check.08:25
wpwraklooks like the SVG export08:27
wpwrakthat may indeed be easier than a postscript export. the PS menu is quite overloaded and you have to change a gazillion options to get something sensible08:29
wolfspraulthe relationship is just every .brd file can be plotted into one .svg ?08:30
wolfspraulandres-calderon: there is the man! :-)08:31
wolfspraulandres-calderon: we are wondering where on the beautiful little Xue even the 2*25 2.00mm connector would fit08:31
wpwrakdoesn't include areas, though08:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: you read that I said earlier we can include a 'breakout' cable with each board that has that 2*25 connector on one side, and individual ribbon cables (for example) on the other side08:32
wolfspraulwould that help?08:32
wpwrakah, i had not seen that. that may me useful. but it all depends on the use :) if it's just "connect *something*" then that's a nice option08:33
andres-calderonFor daughter card, 2 connectors can provide mechanical stability08:33
wpwrakif the rules for connecting stuff are more specific (such as placement etc.), maybe not08:33
wolfspraulwell you tell me08:33
wolfspraulI'm the newbie to all this.08:34
wolfspraulI want to hookup lcm, keyboard, battery controller. naive as I am. replace my asus notebook :-)08:34
wolfspraulbut more realistically I think there are many targets one could want to hookup there, which I have limited overview over08:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: in a pinch, people can also make their own cable :) it's more the case that you need a ton of different little connectors to be compatible with 2 mm that i wouldn't like so mucn08:35
wolfspraulso what's the settlement now, in plain English?08:35
wolfsprauldoes the Xue board have to get bigger?08:35
wolfspraulwhich type of connector is preferable08:35
wpwrakandres-calderon: it he idea that this will be used for dautherboards or also to connect loosely attached things ? (such an some MCU on a development board on the side)08:35
wolfspraulAndres proposed one, I have no problem with that one08:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: relax :)08:36
wolfspraulok :-)08:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: (svg) it's nice for having an overview. it's not so nice for diffs. for diffs you need a black and white base image and that will probably get too crowded in the svg, with all layers superimposed08:37
wpwrakwolfspraul: also, the diff would need to be able to separate the layers. e.g., if you move a trace from top to bottom layer, you'll be able to see that. also, if you add a trace that runs for a long distance above/below one at a different layer, it would be nice if you'd see all of it, not just the entry/exit points.08:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: so for diffs, i'd want to use something like the postscript output we currently get. or maybe gerber if that's easier. then i could show this layer by layer.08:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: for a quick overview or just an impression of the project, on the other hand, the svg is wonderful.08:40
wolfspraulah yes08:44
wolfspraulI didn't think of it for the diffs08:44
wolfspraulthere are so many more visualizations, reports, and what not we can generate it's almost scary08:45
wolfspraulwe need to pick strictly along the lines of what is actually benefitial08:45
wolfspraulso like you said, the svg is just a nice visualization of the latest state of the board08:45
wolfsprauljust a super high-level 'hey look at this' thing08:46
wpwrakyup. present the board in a nice way.08:46
wolfspraulI'm playing with pcbnew a bit right now08:46
wolfspraulit has a nice 3D viewer08:46
wolfspraul'nice' for a non-techie like me on this subject08:46
wolfspraulunfortunately it seems it can only export one particular view/angle into png or jpeg08:47
wolfspraulwould be cool if it could export to some widely supported 3D format, which afaik doesn't exist08:47
wolfspraulanyway all just toys...08:47
wpwrakyou can export to vrml (in pcbnew)08:49
wpwrakone problem with the 3d viewer is that it needs someone to draw the 3d packages :)08:49
wolfspraulI don't find the vrml output08:51
wolfspraulman vrml... there was such a hype around it. for a while everybody thought web browsing would inevitably become all 3D.08:52
wolfspraulI didn't even know it's still around, reading up on Wikipedia now...08:52
wpwrakwell, look at the industry today. 3D video ;-)08:54
wpwrak(vrml output) in pcbnew, under File > Export08:55
wolfspraulI don't have it there08:55
wolfspraulmaybe some libs are required? I have Specctra DSN, GenCAD, Module Report08:56
wolfspraulGenCAD == vrml?08:56
wpwraknono, it says VRML08:57
wpwrakdunno what prerequisites it has, if any. i have version 2010-08-11 bzr 244808:58
wpwrak(if any) that is, except mandatory ones08:58
wpwrakanyway, gotta run. i have a barbecue to prepare for :)08:59
wolfspraulwow, nice - enjoy!08:59
wolfspraulyes it's new maybe08:59
wolfspraulI have the 20100314 release08:59
wolfspraulthat software has a non-commercial clause09:08
wolfspraulthe best would be some format that could be rendered live in javascript09:10
wolfspraulthere seems to be a lot of activity in that direction09:10
wolfspraulso maybe the vrml can be converted into something that can then be rendered via javascript? don't know...09:10
Action: kristianpaul think about vrml free software viewver and got headache09:13
andres-calderon3D rendering is not a great feature... i prefer improved routing tools :)09:16
rafakyak: does that happen for any package?. If so, maybe the FS broke?.. is it ext2 on sd?. Do you have swap?09:17
kyakrafa: for any package, it is ext2 on sd and swap is enabled09:24
kyakhowever, it's just a warning..09:24
kyaka package is installed fine09:25
wolfspraulandres-calderon: don't worry, I was just thinking for something like the schhist that we can create automatically from Kicad commits09:26
wolfspraulso that non-tech people have something to click on and play with09:26
rafakyak: ext2 on sd is a little unstable when you did not have some problems. For example, if you ran out of battery the fs could break easily. The system will do a fsck after at a new boot, but it could sane but not complete or inconsistent09:29
rafakyak: when you did not have=when you had problems09:29
kyakrafa: i see... i'll try to reinstall then09:29
rafakyak: if you do then try (having swap) to install the same packages so you can check a bit further which could be the problem.09:31
kyakrafa: i will. thanks!09:31
rafakyak: you are welcome09:35
kristianpaulheh i realice today why lekernel use the word autocrap :p10:11
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: GPIO connector initial placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/dfaed9a10:29
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: 40 pins connector added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/eaf3abb10:29
wpwrakkristianpaul: autotools is what happens when you had a traumatizing youth caused by misunderstood makefiles and diverging APIs, and then you grew up with a strong desire of revenge, not realizing that the origin of all your pain has long disappeared.10:51
kristianpaulwpwrak: in my case the issue disappeared but i dont know wht10:52
kristianpaulthis not happens all the time, but when hapens....10:53
kristianpaulchroot saves my day :)10:53
kyakwpwrak: but autotools are almost everywhere anyway, and i haven't heard of good alternative :)10:53
Action: kristianpaul finding out how to program his CPLD due the lack of trusty paralle jtag cable and just a buspirate around10:54
kristianpaulkyak: he :) good point10:54
wpwrakkyak: most of the time, a simple makefile will do nicely :) you have things like pkg-config for library dependencies and system APIs all tend to be pretty close to POSIX now, so there's little to worry about10:55
kristianpauli agree with wpwrak10:55
wpwrakkyak: even more so if your target is linux-specific anyway ;-)10:55
kristianpaulactuallt this sofware i was compiling just move to autotools in devel branch, dont know why..10:56
kyakme too would prefer to go with a simple Makefile10:57
andres-calderonwpwrak a question about IDBG,  Do You think it's a good idea to use IDBG to program an FPGA (XILINX S6)?11:03
kristianpaulandres-calderon: you fpga is same as milkymsit?11:04
andres-calderonyes, the same FPGA11:05
kristianpaulandres-calderon: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/mmone-jtag-serial-cable/11:05
kristianpaulis already proven to work and supported in urjtag11:05
kristianpaulandres-calderon: http://milkymist.org/wiki/index.php?title=Flashing_the_Milkymist_One11:06
kristianpaulalso i think wpwrak is moving to ftdi chip too ;)11:06
kristianpaulwee :)11:06
kristianpaulandres-calderon: http://lekernel.net/blog/?p=126611:09
kristianpaulThere is no excuse :D11:09
andres-calderonok, but I'm currently interested in the  IDBG board ... We have experience with the FTDI chip, but I'm interested in using the 8051, used by Werner11:09
kristianpaulwell is up to you then :)11:10
andres-calderonFTDI is very expensive, and the 8051 has ADCs inputs11:10
kristianpaul(but please no more closed sources chips !!)11:10
kristianpaulandres-calderon: very??11:10
kristianpaul7~ usd is not so expensive, considering you got jtag and uart11:13
kristianpauljust talking about the chip11:13
andres-calderonvery expensive...11:13
andres-calderonthe chip used in IDBG includes  ADCs11:14
andres-calderonwe have a lot of experience with the FTDI, i like this chip.11:21
qi-bot[commit] kyak: gcc: don't strip shared libraries (now shared build works, too) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b7e904711:37
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: remove obsolete dependencies http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/b75600614:26
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: small fixes http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/602230716:49
tuxbrainwpwrak: [the wall] talking about strange variations of this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U13xOvDa19U17:31
tuxbrainnice reading of xue posibilities and conector :)17:31
tuxbrainIMMO having two connectors "ala arduino will provide stability to daughter boards and isntead of one cable we can deliver it with two :)17:32
tuxbrainfor the DIY guys17:33
tuxbraindamn no wolfi to ask about SIE local production17:33
tuxbrainwolfgang: maybe we should include this cable also in next SIEs17:37
kristianpaultuxbrain: hola :)17:53
kristianpaultuxbrain: how are workshops goinf btw?17:53
tuxbrainwell after we decide to left the Tuxbrain den and return to a more nomad aproach people start to register...17:56
tuxbraincrazy world :P17:56
tuxbrainso we are looking for a place to do the first course of this kind17:57
kristianpaulplace on demand too¬°?17:57
tuxbrainI think the trick was the lovely penguins victor desing :)17:57
kristianpauli like it17:58
tuxbrainwell we have some friendly places that will allow to do the courses near here Barcelona17:58
tuxbrainbut well if a group wants to pay our trip to whatever place :) we will go there17:59
kristianpaulthats demand !18:00
tuxbrainwe are cheap to maintain once there , redbull before workshop/ beer after workshop, with some chip potatoes :)18:01
tuxbrainbut well fist lets try to not so nomad approach and train ourselfs locally and if there is demand we can study the really nomad way,18:02
tuxbrainwell time to sleep, Wolfi, tomorrow I will be not very on line but try to contact you18:08
rafatuxbrain_away: we can offer you asados here :) (for courses)18:10
kristianpaulrafa: ;)18:15
kristianpaulor a jlime work18:15
kristianpauloops :)18:16
kristianpaulrafa: remener the other time i asked you about encryption support in jlme, not talking about making it default thing, do you think is loable ?18:19
kristianpaulrafa: like for saving personal information/data securelly18:19
kristianpaulwpwrak: yay he said yes (scopemeter and some other labs tool just some blocks from home )18:23
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: - root page has been resized http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/e40b97f19:27
rohhm. anybody a clue how to reflash a elphel?22:10
wolfspraulask in #elphel22:11
wolfspraulroh: do you have mirko's camera, or where did you get it from?22:16
rohwolfspraul yeah.. for the moment. just trying the basics22:29
rohits cool hardware. really nice quality22:29
wolfspraulvery happy to hear that22:36
wolfspraulroh: you would love those guys (Elphel). If you are every in Utah, give them a call (I know, long shot :-))22:36
wolfspraulthere are only a few people in #elphel, but they should help you22:37
wolfspraulI once built the entire rootfs myself (not the fpga bitstreams though), but I never reflashed one22:37
wolfspraulroh: what do you like about the quality?22:37
wolfspraulyou mean the case? or something you see on the board?22:37
wolfspraulroh: btw, please take good care of this camera. It's only loaned from Elphel... :-)22:38
rohwolfspraul for sure22:45
rohyes.. the mechanics ive seen so far. havent opened it22:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: question about KiCad versions. you said you use a 2010-08-xx version. I assume you take them directly from the launchpad bazaar? I found two branches there, stable and testing. Which one do you use?22:56
wolfspraulmy impression of the stable branch is that only a few critical fixes are backported, so it looks like you use testing? have you found that to be stable enough? or do you take it at certain times when you know from the devs that it is stable enough?22:56
wpwrakyup, it's testing that is use (juct checked ;-)23:11
wpwrakit's basically guesswork indeed23:11
wolfsprauland that's generally safe?23:12
wolfspraulor someone tells you a magic revision number and then you use that?23:12
wpwrakandres-calderon: the c8051f326 (idbg) doesn't have an adc. you'd have to pick a more powerful chip in the same family for this.23:15
wpwraktuxbrain_away: wow ! :)23:20
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (cable) you could also include just the connectors and a bit of cable. leave it to people to do the crimping.23:21
wpwraktuxbrain_away: where is the penguin ? :)23:22
wpwrakkristianpaul: (scope) great ! congratulations ! so you'll finally see what you're doing :)23:24
wpwrakandres-calderon: (c8051f326 vs. ftdi) i'm still struggling with the ftdi chip. so far, it doesn't work in a usable way (with bitbanging) and i don't understand why. could be horribly bad design (the documentation isn't clear about some important details)23:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: i look at the list, see if i like the changes they're discussing/committing, then pick or not :)23:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: so far, i haven't gotten burnt. but then, i only do this a few times per year.23:27
wolfspraulwpwrak: can you tell me again what revision you are using right now?23:29
wpwrakandres-calderon: i also see data corruption on the c8051f32x that gets past the crc. so my world is quite noise. that's why ben-wpan/cntr uses so much redundancy.23:29
wolfspraulI'll just follow that23:29
andres-calderonwpwrak,  IDBG could be used to  program a  S6?23:29
wpwrakwhat's a S6 ?23:30
andres-calderonXilinx Spartan623:30
wpwrakmy kicad identifies itself as version 2010-08-11, bzr 244823:30
wpwrakaah, spartan. hmm, after some work23:31
wpwraki've implemented some jtag, but it doesn't work well. too slow.23:31
andres-calderonwpwrak, data corruption...  that is scary.23:32
wpwrakandres-calderon: yeah, i don't like that at all23:32
wpwrakandres-calderon: it's not very common, but you notice it in something like ben-wpan/cntr, where there are thousands of messages and one corruption can upset the system23:34
wpwrakandres-calderon: (i'll make it even more robust in the next version)23:35
wpwrakanyway, crawling to bed now. it's been a busy day with lots of drinks :)23:36
wolfspraul2448, thx23:39
wolfspraulhope the barbecue was great!23:39
--- Mon Oct 11 201000:00

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