#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2010-10-06

wolfspraulkristianpaul: I think the servers should be back now, let me know if anything doesn't work00:20
qwebirc22159hi kristian00:47
qwebirc22159thanks alot00:47
qwebirc22159now I am getting two way serial communication but another small problem has popup00:47
wpwrakqwebirc22159: (2-way) cool ! what was the problem ?01:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: (repo) not sure. it's usually fastest to just draw your own.01:32
qwebirc22159serial port was locked with ash login01:36
wpwrakqwebirc22159: oh, good to know this one ! thanks !01:41
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Option -D to keep temporary work trees for analysis/debugging. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/f68e5a502:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Allow setting of _schhist2web, to allow for parallel runs. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/479fff103:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: FYI: i'm updating eda-tools on fidelio and i'll do a build run of avt2, with separate directories03:02
wolfspraulmaybe disable the /etc/cron.d/schhist if it's disturbing your work03:03
wolfspraulthe setup is documented here, as you probably already know http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup#KiCad,_fped,_schhist03:03
wpwraki just added instrumentation to schhist to let it run in parallel :)03:07
wpwrak(documentation) yup, got that one. thanks03:07
wolfspraulparallel, scary03:09
wolfspraulyou had to add that first, before tracking down the ghosts? :-) (just kidding)03:09
wolfspraulI was quite happy with the idea that things run sequentially03:09
wolfspraulwith parallel later the global (kicad-libs) problem may also get bigger03:10
wolfspraulyou can just turn off the server builds (cron.d) entirely to play around, no worries03:10
wolfspraulmy script is also quite resilient in resuming, so you can just delete all git and output dirs and it should reconstruct everything once the cronjob is back03:11
wpwrak(parallel) oh, it's just a means to specify separate directories. in one case, i need it anyway, to keep temporary results03:12
wpwrakyou can look at the last few commits. they don't change a lot.03:12
tuxbrainwpwrak: about NN Nanowar edition , Only 3 selled but we have created some noise out of the techy sphere, a see a little more activity in normal NN after launch not espectacular but people start perciving NN as something more than a portatile console.03:27
wolfspraulwpwrak: I forgot to answer your key question yesterday. without news, I sell maybe 3-5 / week from Hong Kong.03:28
wolfspraulnot including distributors, but the only active and real distributor is ... Tuxbrain! :-)03:28
wolfspraultuxbrain: btw, the small gift package to you is on the way, according to tracking it was released from customs03:29
wolfspraulwith the microsd cards (late, but anyway...), some pouches, and 10 resistive touch panels to play with SIE03:29
wolfspraulmaybe also some new stickers, 2nd generation so the print quality is much better03:30
tuxbrainperfect on November I will go to the Hack Metting on Zaragoza, so is a good place to spread that stickers :)03:31
wolfspraulgreat yes!03:31
wolfspraulI'm quite satisfied with the stickers now03:31
wolfspraulwe need to document the files and process a bit better03:31
wpwraktuxbrain: (NN in better light) great !03:31
wolfspraulif someone makes better designs, also fine03:31
wolfspraultuxbrain: btw, in your latest shipment (the one still on order), every nanonote will have the new stickers03:31
wolfspraul2 * NanoNote, 2 * Sharism, 2 * Milkymist03:32
wolfspraulin each box03:32
wolfspraulplus I've added a free pouch, very simple one but I think it's nice03:32
tuxbrainthere are some hardware hakers willing to play with the SPI /SDIO interface , and I have already did nothing yet :)03:32
wpwraktuxbrain: (3 nanowars) hmm, perhaps it's just too exotic. maybe get an exclusive contract with madonna for the next ben-with-media bundle :)03:32
wolfspraulthe free pouches in the new NanoNote run are the same as the 10-20 I sent you for free in the gift package03:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: (3-5/wk) so the bens you have now will last you for 2 years :)03:33
wolfspraulI would have _almost_ included a spare battery in the new run, but I had the idea too late and the lead time would have delayed the shipment by 2-3 weeks, so I decided against it.03:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: that's without news, without tuxbrain (Europe), who has been selling 40% of all Nanos anyway03:34
wolfspraulwho knows maybe our US distributor freedomincluded.com comes alive?03:34
wolfsprauldon't know03:34
tuxbrainok I'm finishing  the deal with pulster, I will place the order end of this week or beguining of next03:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes, i already included that 50% that sell elsewhere :)03:34
wolfsprauldjbclark: still alive? :-)03:34
wolfspraulI would love to have an active US distributor03:34
wolfspraulmaybe freedomincluded will eventually kick into high hear, philosophically it's definitely a fit03:35
wolfspraulwe'll see03:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: so the bottom line is that news will be needed. hmm. how to generate quick good-looking news ?03:35
tuxbraincommon it can't be at least Iron Maiden instead of Madonna?03:36
wolfspraulfirst question is which media03:36
wolfspraulmaybe the tech press already has done what they can do03:36
wolfspraulbut to go elsewhere, software is not ready yet03:36
wolfspraulI have finally finished the blogging/feed improvements I wanted to do for a long time.03:37
wolfspraulso the Sharism (company) blog is fed into the planet03:37
wolfsprauland the Qi community news are fed into the planet too!03:37
wolfsprauland there is a clean RSS/Atom feed for the community news now03:37
wpwraktuxbrain: hmm, if they're still alive. or, cooler, if they're dead already but you can resurrect them. the NNN, NanoNote Necromancy03:38
wolfspraulnext step is to start working on some editorials, press releases, interviews03:38
wolfsprauland of course resurrect the community news03:38
wpwrakwolfspraul: i don't think "mainstream" will be a good target before the ya and all the improved process ownership that hopefully comes with it03:39
wpwrakwolfspraul: so it would have to be some more milking of the tech press03:39
wolfspraulI think there are endless communities/markets in between mainstream and tech03:40
wpwrakperhaps the ben plus breakout board thing could be something. it would have to be nicely packaged, though. kinda like those educational science experiments kits for kids (Kosmos and the like)03:41
wpwrakso, again something with plenty of work before it's ready :-(03:41
wolfspraulI am just describing my thinking to you, I'll see whether it works03:41
wolfspraulsales & engineering03:41
wolfspraulsorry I meant sales != engineering03:41
wolfspraulin other words, if I work on sales, even just PR/marketing, then by definition I try to sell whatever I have03:41
wolfspraulnot do more work :-)03:41
wolfspraulof course someone has to buy...03:42
wpwraksure, that's the ideal case :)03:42
wpwrakthe question for engineering is then to see what can be done to improve your odds03:42
wolfspraulI think the current hacking projects are just fine. everything from cases, ben-wpan, gps, to sie/touch driver, milkymist, xue (cmos image sensors)03:44
wolfspraulthose things all make sense and will come together03:44
wolfspraulsame as the server work03:44
wolfspraulDavid and I have to think how we can sell more of what we have today, irrespective of the great things we work on for tomorrow.03:45
tuxbrainhehehe irrespective03:45
wpwrakalright, so how to show the existing stuff in a new light ?03:45
tuxbrainpure marqueting yeah03:45
wolfspraulah, new light03:46
tuxbrainbasically that why my obsesion for jlime, is what Openwrt has to become in terms of user experience03:46
wolfspraulreminds me of your ben case renderings03:46
wolfspraultrying to remember what happened recently03:47
wolfspraulI think we should include a pic of werner's ben rendering03:47
wolfspraulthen the pic with atusd inserted03:47
wolfspraulnanowar was already in the september news I think03:47
wolfspraulno not yet03:48
wolfspraulso that one too03:48
wolfspraulnew run03:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: will the nanowar picture the oe of the guy licking the box ? :)03:48
wpwraktuxbrain: in fact, he should have been licking the machine03:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: community news would be a "cheap" basic source of news for the "official" blog. that would solve the problem of months passing, apparently without anything happening03:50
wolfspraulwpwrak: I have just cleaned up the server side tech, I'm on it now03:50
wolfspraulno worries03:50
wolfspraulalso added schhist03:50
wpwrakit's quite droll how many sites are out there with a proud page of "LATEST NEWS" and then it's twenty entries from 2005-2006.03:50
wolfspraulthe 'official' blog you are talking about is the sharism blog03:50
wolfspraulit's same as the tuxbrain blog03:51
wolfspraulah, right03:51
wolfspraulsome new reviews03:51
wpwrakyes, the sharism blog. it looks nice and professional. so that's where you'd expect the good stuff.03:52
wolfspraulsharism blog will have a business & manufacturing perspective03:54
wolfspraulit sorts itself out once there is some life...03:54
wpwrakbiz and manufacturing is good. sharism is the engine that drives the whole system.03:55
wolfspraulyeah, great engine. fuel supplies a little low... :-)03:56
wolfspraulwe should add some solar panels03:56
wolfspraulI added a few things03:56
wolfspraulwill add more, and write nicer texts, embed pictures etc.03:56
wpwrakah yes, the 1k run. excellent. no better sign of life than that.03:57
wolfspraulthis will be published on the first of November, and 'published' means it goes into the Qi feed and into the planet03:58
wolfspraulthose are the official (!) Qi feeds now :-)03:58
wolfspraulincluding community news, editorials, interviews, press releases, whatever03:58
wolfspraulstuff can be written in the wiki, and published by adding to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/News when it's ready for publication03:59
wpwraktuxbrain: so you have almost a month to make your serial board, for even more hw news :)03:59
wolfspraulthen we have the planet03:59
wolfspraulthe planet aggregates all sorts of interesting feeds around copyleft hardware03:59
wpwraktuxbrain: the nice thing would be that it would then look like a "family" of extension boards. not just some one-off hack.04:00
wolfspraulincluding the Qi news, sharism, tuxbrain, and many others04:00
wolfspraulso I hope for those that use feed readers, we can point them to either subscribe to the Qi feed, or if they are very interested, to the entire planet04:00
wolfspraulwhich I want to manage to a level of not more than 1-2 posts a day or so04:00
tuxbrainthanks for the preasure , dude :) , In next days I will be a really annowing wannabe asking a lot04:01
wolfsprauland hopefully solid/interesting posts, quality over quantity04:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: tuxbrain does this news/feed regime I described make sense?04:01
tuxbrainwell as allways04:01
wolfspraulI'll be filling it with life myself, no worries04:01
wolfspraulof course the more join the better, Mirko started this a while back, over the summer it was a bit quiet, now I upped some things on the server and I am ready to jump back in too...04:02
wpwraktuxbrain: (pressure) in a previous life, i was the fat guy with the drums in a galley ;-)04:02
wolfspraulah, since kristoffer just joined, the news about the new Jlime betas must go in as well04:02
wolfsprauldone (links and pics later)04:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: i don't know much about rss and such, but the general concept sounds good04:03
wolfspraulyeah, I hope too04:03
wolfspraulthe entire publishing can now be driven from the wiki, which is nice04:04
tuxbraingreat I was the one eating grape taking sun baths up stairs, mmm I want to do some watter skiing.... faaat guuuy.....04:04
Action: wpwrak drums faster04:04
wolfspraulI will also go over the mailing list and see whether there is more newsworthy stuff there04:04
wpwrakWiki-Aided-Publishing ;-)04:04
kristofferwhat have I missed?04:06
wolfspraulwpwrak: by the way, you mentioned that you are missing some individual mechanical pieces recently, like the bezel on the top, metal piece over speaker, etc.04:06
tuxbrainand then the slave wake up of his dream and star to push an pull the big bar of wood in front of him faster ....04:06
wolfspraulI'm working on collecting them and sending to you. expect in a few weeks maybe.04:06
tuxbrainok titme to do some work04:07
tuxbrainsee you later04:07
wolfspraulkristoffer: if you have some Jlime news, please add to http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_news_2010-11-0104:07
wolfspraulideally with pics, but you can also just leave a note and we'll fill in the juicy bits later04:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: cool, thanks ! if you have a sponge (the thing under the keyboard), that would be nice, too. ah, and an lcd module without pcb attached.04:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, the rubbery plastic foam.04:08
wolfspraulcan you take that off from the keyboard?04:08
wolfspraulthat is one piece coming from 1 vendor, so I didn't even know you can take it apart without destroying it04:08
wpwrakit's attached to the bottom shell04:09
wolfspraulof course they do put it together, so there must be a way to take it apart as well04:09
wolfspraulbottom shell?04:09
wpwrakyes, i could try to pry it off one of my devices. but if you have one lying around, that's easier :)04:09
wpwrakyou know which part i'm talking about ? the same sort of material you use for isolating door frames and such04:10
wpwrakwell, similar04:10
wolfspraulI think I know, but don't have a disassembled device here right now04:10
wolfspraulit's glued into the bottom plastic part?04:10
wpwrakit's about 48 x 14 mm.04:11
wpwrakdark grey04:11
tuxbrain_awayI have don't see this piece you are talking about in the ones I have dissambled ....04:12
wpwrak1-1.8 mm04:12
wpwraktuxbrain_away: maybe you just didn't notice :) lemme check my picture collection ...04:12
wpwrakright below the "16.8"04:13
wpwrakit's actualy something i may not be able to scan because it's too soft. but i can at least measure it.04:13
tuxbrain_awayops yes there it is :O04:14
wpwrakone of these days i have to find out how to make keycaps. i could make leaded ones, of course. i think keycaps glued into a silicone mat may be sufficient for proof of concept grade experiments04:21
wpwrakoh, and a heavy keyboard could also be an alternative to the counterweight ;-)04:21
wpwrak(kbd) this would be a layout idea: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/layout.pdf04:26
wpwrakonly one "fn" modifier (no arrow), no function keys, wide space bar, large enter. ideally, it would work on top of the existing domes. but i'm not sure a wide button straddling two domes works. maybe i need three. or maybe it simply doesn't work with > 1 domes.04:27
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: parcel arrived, first though... ya must those touch screens !!!05:13
tuxbrain_awaymust have05:13
tuxbrain_awaysecond though pouches are great!! will protect nn from scratchesn in bags and pockets :)05:15
tuxbrain_awayand NN fits like in a glove in them, good finde05:15
tuxbrain_awaygood find,05:15
tuxbrain_awaythird though, why don't sell them lets say at 3¬ instead of gift it? this may sound unpopular but also every one knows how our margins are so any extra income will benefit, and also give to NN a starting universe of complement for it05:17
tuxbrain_awayfourth though, how can I connect the touch screen to the sdio :P05:19
tuxbrain_awayany datasheet on what those four pins return?  I supouse is vin voutx vouty gnd?05:20
wpwrakXR0 XR1 YR0 YR1 ?05:21
wpwrakor are there any electronic components ?05:21
tuxbrain_awayyou mean as the ends of a resistor?05:21
tuxbrain_awayno, no extra electronics in there05:22
wpwrakyup. a resistive touch screen is just two resistors that connect somewhere in the middle (where you touch)05:22
wpwrak(connect) your ATmega has an ADC ;-)05:22
tuxbrain_awayyes that was my tough so we sould left 4 extra pins free to the serial uSD dongle to let people connect the touch screen :)05:24
wpwraktoo bad the ADC of the Ben's CPU isn't accessible05:24
tuxbrain_awayit should be accecibel on Ya05:25
tuxbrain_awaywtf ya must have this touch screens :)05:25
wpwrakavt2 has them, though05:26
tuxbrain_awaysorry when a parcel arrives with new things I'm allways extra excited05:26
wpwrakeven on a connector. very nice.05:26
tuxbrain_awayyou want I send one of those to you?, I have 10, one or two for me, one for the University of Granada, so 7 left05:27
wpwrakno idea if you can just plug it in or if the connectors are different05:27
wpwraki guess wolfgang could put one in the next "gift package"05:28
tuxbrain_awaywolfi, the copyleft hardware Santa05:28
tuxbrain_awayit bring gift to hackers that are good guys05:29
wolfspraulok one by one05:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: oh .. when rerunning schhist after the cache.lib removal change, did you kill the old output directory ?05:30
wolfspraulfirst I'm glad you got it and like it05:30
wolfspraula gift from China :-)05:30
wolfspraulyes I was thinking about selling the pouch extra05:30
wolfspraula lot05:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: because, if not, it'll just reuse the things if had created before the change05:31
wolfspraulI know it will be unpopular with distributors to include one, but I figured neither you nor me have any real accessories business right now.05:31
wolfspraulI apologize that I didn't ask/talk to you before about it, in those times we were a bit disconnected...05:31
wolfspraulso since our volumes are so low right now, I figured we just include the pouch to make the package more valuable, focus just on the device05:32
wolfspraulif that's wrong, and you would like me to remove the pouch, and sell it separately, well you are my customer :-)05:32
wpwrakcustomers, on the other hand, usually like it if there's lots of stuff in the box.05:32
wolfspraulthe price of each pouch is an unbelievable 15 US cents, by the way05:32
wpwrakend-customers :)05:32
wolfsprauland I felt bad making a big fuss (separate product) out of this 15 cents piece of nothing05:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: strike this from the log and sell it for a special price of EUR 10 ;-)05:33
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: but I made the decision single-handedly, and I do listen to you if you want it differently in the future05:33
wolfspraulabout the touchscreen05:33
wolfspraulit's a 4-wire resistive one, very simple05:33
wolfspraulthe cool thing about it is that larsc has already added a touch-screen driver for the Sungale ID800WT picture frame, which uses a 474005:34
wpwrakkewl :) all the work is done05:34
wolfspraulwell, not really05:34
wolfspraulat least not today05:34
wolfspraulwhere would you want to hook it up right now?05:34
wpwrakavt2 :)05:34
wolfspraulon the ben, I am not 100% positive that the 4720 (COB) has the adc (resistive) wires out05:35
wolfsprauland we definitely don't have them as test points05:35
wpwrakthe ben doesn't05:35
wolfspraulso I don't think there is a way to hook it up on the Ben05:35
wpwrakno nice and easy way05:35
wolfspraulwpwrak: does the 4720 have the touch pin-out?05:35
tuxbrain_awayI will not not blame nor moan, we should be consequent so if you don't sell separatly I will do not, is enoght to listen the 99$=99¬ blaming time to time to add in addition hey in sharims the offer the pouch for free! you steeler05:35
wpwrakyes. the avt2 even has a connector for a touch screen05:35
wolfspraulfor SIE, similar story, the  4725 afaik does not bringout the touch interface05:36
wolfspraulso yes, Lars driver is nice05:36
wolfsprauland we can hook it up on the few avt2 we have05:36
wolfspraulor maybe on future runs05:36
wolfspraulbut on sie, I believe we cannot hook it up in such a way to use lars driver05:36
wolfspraulso on sie, we can either hook it up to the adc (?), or to the fpga (?)05:36
wolfspraulI think Carlos planned something along those lines, I sent him 10 touch panels as well but they haven't arrived yet.05:36
tuxbrain_awaywell sie has his own adc's05:37
tuxbrain_awayyou are quick05:37
wolfspraulon the Ben, yes, maybe it is theoretically possible to use sdio, but actually I doubt it. I'm not sure the speed is high enough. I do think you need an ADC somewhere.05:37
wpwrakjz4725B only has one ADC input, not the four for the touch screen05:37
wolfspraulso yes there are ways to start playing with those panels I sent you, but it's not just plug & play05:37
wolfspraulit's more about the long run05:38
wolfspraullars has made the first step, we have a functioning driver for the 474005:38
wolfspraulmaybe Carlos will do something on SIE, or now you can? don't know05:38
tuxbrain_awaywhatever, this is work for ya and expand the hackerish on ben05:38
tuxbrain_awaybut man, ya must have it05:38
wolfspraulcan some of lars driver be reused on sie? I doubt it, it may be very 4740 specific, but I don't know05:38
wpwrak(sdio) an MCU may be cost-neutral when compared to an ADC, and more flexible05:38
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: so you go figure what to do with them, I don't know05:39
wolfspraulthere are multiple angles to get started05:39
wolfspraulthey only cost 50 cents / piece by the way05:39
wolfspraulsold like candy on the street05:39
wolfspraulI could buy 2 for a dollar :-)05:39
tuxbrain_awayarduino apliances for example for start05:40
wolfspraulthe reason I threw them into your package was just to go along with the SIE, as an 'add-on' of sorts05:40
wpwrak(driver reuse on SIE) would be very unlikely. these drivers generally don't do much beyond talking to the ADC or touch screen subsystem (some implement the whole X/Y measurement process, so there's no need to do this explicitly step by step)05:40
wolfspraulat that time I still thought you would have 4 SIE, so I sent you 10 panels05:40
wpwrakwolfspraul: the main question is how easy/hard it is to attach them to the display05:41
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: I think for SIE those panels are a fun project05:41
wolfsprauljust put on top05:41
wpwrakglue ?05:41
wolfspraulit's a separate glass05:41
wpwrakwhat holds them in place ?05:41
wpwrakglass ?!?05:41
tuxbrain_awayI don't knowy if you have read my intentions of add an atmel to SDIO so if I succed I will have have a way to use that panel on ben on a hackish way05:41
wpwrakthat would be capacitative05:41
wolfspraulboth resistive and capacitive panels are (currently) still on a separate glass layer05:42
wolfspraulthere are huge investments being made to bring the touch layer (resistive or capacitive) directly onto the glass under which the crystals are05:43
wolfspraulbut afaik nobody can manufacture that at acceptable yields right now05:43
wpwrakhmm, resistive and glass ? lemme research this ...05:43
wolfspraulmaybe sometimes the material can also be plastic or some other funky stuff, but it's always a separate layer, right now05:43
wolfspraulwpwrak: it may be plastic05:44
wpwrakyes, plastic is what i would expect05:44
wolfspraulah OK, sorry05:44
wolfspraulI'm no so precise on the materials05:44
wolfspraulit definitely looks and feels like glass05:44
wpwrakyes, separate layer. that's for sure. but how does it stay in place ?05:44
wolfspraulanyway my point is that it is a separately laery05:44
wolfspraulso you just put it on top of the screen05:44
wolfspraulit's held in place by the mechanical around it normally05:45
wpwrakpolycarbonate is quite similar to glass. even likes to break almost as easily as glass (making it fun to machine :)05:45
wolfspraulI mean - what holds the SIE LCM in place right now? :-) nothing...05:45
wpwrakwell, pressure. but if there's no adhesion, the panel will shift.05:45
wpwrakmaybe not to the point where you can see that it has moved, but to the point that you need to re-calibrate05:46
wolfspraulsure, understand and agreed05:50
wolfspraulbut like I said, whatever holds the LCM in place also has to hold the touch panel in place05:50
wolfsprauland on SIE we have neither right now, the LCM is just hanging loose on the FPC05:51
wolfspraulthere is a small edge on the side, maybe as a lab measure one could just take the two together05:51
wolfspraulcan it be hacked into a Ben? don't know, that's at least as much a software problem as a hardware problem05:51
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: next SIE run, we can definitely consider to just throwing these panels into the package05:52
wolfspraulup to you...05:52
tuxbrain_awayif is up to me then yes include them :)05:53
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, projects.../schhist runs directly off /home/schhist/output/ ?05:53
tuxbrain_awaya smal drops of superglue will not atach them toguether forever?05:54
wpwrak(i'm looking for a way to force a rebuild. i think you may not have done a full rebuild after i added the removal of cache.lib, so the ghosts would now simply come out of schhist's own cache)05:55
wpwraktuxbrain_away: that's at least what i'd try :)05:55
wpwrak(way to force a rebuild) without being too intrusive :)05:56
tuxbrain_awaybtw, where I can find connectors to the touch screen to not solder cables directly to the four pins?05:58
wpwrakah yes, output is "live". hmm.06:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: can i kill the avt2 display on http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/ for a while ?06:13
tuxbrain_awayhehe the universty of Granada also want's 30 SIE daughter boards of this one http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/C%C3%A1mara_Digital_con_efectos_de_imagen06:13
wpwraktuxbrain_away: fear the special wishes :)06:14
tuxbrain_awayyes the hehe was a defesive laught of fear06:15
tuxbrain_awayI will talk to carlos to know what he thought about and to know what's the status of the project, at first sight the definition of the project at the wiki page seems quite complete but as wolfi will said is just paper06:17
wpwrakthe design looks straightforward enough06:20
wpwrakit's the sort of thing you can do quite conveniently at home06:21
wpwrakwell, all the through-hole components suck a bit06:21
wpwrakyou'd spend an hour just drilling holes06:23
tuxbrain_awaymmm I supouse they select them to mount it it selfs confotable, 30 is small number to ask for a smd redesign though, aaarrgh why they don what to bough a thousand , then all doubts will be out06:23
tuxbrain_awaythemselfs not it self06:24
kristianpaulwpwrak: (draw) yeah i noticed this is called module editor :)06:29
wpwrakkristianpaul: for drawing a footprint, you're probably better off with fped06:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: that is, unless you always aspired to lead the diverse and exciting life of a machine06:30
kristianpaulwpwrak: fped is in qu repo or in your openmoko svn btw?06:31
kristianpaulwpwrak: okay i'll follow your experience in the field :)06:32
wpwrakkristianpaul: i don't know if the qi repo has any changes. if in doubt, just use the one at openmoko.06:32
kristianpaulthere is a quick intro to the interface?06:33
kristianpaulbtw there is no open menu??..06:33
wpwrakargh. those kids today. now they even want intros !06:34
Action: kristianpaul runs away.. :)06:34
wpwrak(open) you run it with the file name as argument,   fped whatever.fpd06:34
kristianpaulyeah i noticed it some secons ago06:35
wpwrakif yo give it no argument, it'll write to stdout. so nothing is lost, but it may be a bit harder to collect the results of your work :)06:35
wpwrakalso, save from time to time. there are still bugs that occasionally crash it, particularly (a while) after deleting things. if you find a way to reproduce a crash, please please let me know :)06:36
wpwrakhmm, no reaction. i'll just try to do a "gentle" rebuild of avt2 then ...06:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: kill it kill it07:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: i tried to kill just the cache. seems that this worked. now it's rebuilding07:02
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: any comment on the SIE daughter board?07:03
wolfspraulI forgot to kill the cache?07:03
wolfspraulwhere does it live?07:03
wolfspraulI'm pretty sure I removed the entire output/avt207:03
wolfspraulwhat did you mean with "runs in /home/schhist/output"?07:04
wolfsprauldaughterboard... first thing I see that camera module on coin picture, which I'm sure is not proper copyleft07:05
wolfspraulI should just delete it07:05
wolfspraulcopied from the sparkfun online shop07:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: (runs in) that the output there is directly visible on the web. i did a quick test and this seems to be the case. something to fix later.07:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Make schhist try harder to do seamless in-place updates. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/981684707:07
wpwrakhere's a band-aid to make it a bit better07:07
tuxbrain_awayheheeh ok not good start07:08
wolfspraulI couldn't find a policy on sparkfun.com07:09
wolfspraulthe picture is marked 'public domain - copyright ineligible' which is definitely not the case07:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: why would that need to be fixed?07:09
wolfspraulyes, I just share that entire directory via nfs back to the Apache server :-)07:09
wolfspraulI'm pretty radical on saving me working time unless there is a need to do better. a bit of extra traffic between the 2 servers doesn't matter.07:10
wolfspraulespecially when it's about syncing 3+ gigabytes of data07:10
wolfsprauljust leave it where it is, nfs, apache, done07:10
wolfspraulI have no comment on the daughterboard07:10
tuxbrain_awayfrom the about us of sparkfun:07:11
wolfspraulits' very hard to manufacture something like this cost-effective07:11
tuxbrain_awayPhotos: Please feel free to use our product photos in your project documentation or reports. If you would like to use a photo for a commercial venture, please contact us first at marketing@sparkfun.com07:11
wolfspraulQi is a commercial venture, they didn't contact them for sure. so we need to delete it.07:11
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: the problem with such boards is that whoever wants them wants to pay 10 USD for them07:12
tuxbrain_awayI don't have delete permision07:12
wolfsprauland buy 2007:12
wolfspraulone sec I'll give it to you07:12
wolfspraul(thanks for asking)07:12
wolfspraulyou are admin already07:12
wolfspraulare you sure you cannot delete?07:12
tuxbrain_awaysorry I don't even try07:13
tuxbrain_awayI didn't now I was admin :P07:13
wpwrakwolfspraul: sigh. you're right. you did delete the cache properly back then. the ghosts are still there :-((07:13
wolfspraulso for the daughterboard, and my extreme need to focus on somewhat profitable endeavors, my minimum order quantity would probably be in the hundreds at least07:13
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: I have a trigger finger when it comes to giving people permissions.07:14
wpwrakwolfspraul: (fixed) because schhist doesn't do an "atomic" update. so if you access the output directory while it's updating, you may get partial files.07:14
wolfspraulsome people have blasted me for that, but I don't care :-)07:14
wolfspraulany permission I have you can have too07:14
wolfsprauleven in my bank account - there is nothing there to take anyway, he he :-)07:14
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: is that a clear answer on the daughterboard?07:15
wolfsprauleven SIE is already a stretch for me07:15
wolfspraulthe smaller and more primitive a board gets the harder it is07:15
wolfspraulI need more complex boards, more integrated07:15
wolfspraulthen higher volume07:15
wolfspraulthen I still have to spend a lot of time on testing etc. and documenting everything properly, but that's what I want to try as a company07:15
wolfspraulso making ca. 50 SIE was extremely tough for me, but at least it's a nice NanoNote derivative, quite complex etc.07:16
wolfspraulso we can innovate on the freedom/copyleft side07:16
wolfspraulif you want to order 200 or more SIE from me, great, that's starting to become actually sustainable for me07:16
tuxbrain_awayunderstood, sharims not daughter SIE manufaturer for less than 250 units07:17
wolfsprauldaughterboard: unless someone wants to pay a high price / board, or someone orders 500 or more, it's nearly impossible for me unless you want to speed up my bankruptcy07:17
wolfspraulyes fair enough07:17
wolfspraul250 is already low07:17
tuxbrain_awayunderstood, sharims not daughter SIE manufaturer for less than 500 units07:17
wolfspraulthe problem is also people don't want to pay07:18
wolfspraulyes! :-)07:18
wpwrakhey, everything in china is cheap ;-)07:18
wolfspraulyou cannot believe how many mails I get where someone says "we ordered this stuff from China, and IT DOES NOT WORK!!!"07:18
wolfspraulthen I dig in a bit, and it turns out they got EXACTLY WHAT THEY DESERVE07:18
wolfspraulthe Ferraris here in Beijing cost the same as in Europe07:18
wolfspraulno difference guys07:18
wolfspraulbut the Chinese are good at selling you something that doesn't work. they don't care that you are so stupid. it's pre-paid before the shipment goes out anyway.07:19
wolfspraulso sorry, in those cases, I also cannot help07:19
wolfspraulgo buy your 10 USD crap and then send your sensational mails about Chinese crap07:19
wolfspraulfind out what the Granada guys want to pay for the daughterboard...07:20
tuxbrain_awayI had previouly contact of a local board integrator, near my town, I can ask for price, I the unesity will be interested on the price they offer me +20% great if not.. great too07:20
wolfsprauldefinitely ask them07:20
wolfspraulfor simple boards it may be better to do it locally07:20
wolfspraulless shipping around, communication overhead07:20
wpwrakwolfspraul: and what makes it all worse are those people who brag about getting some nice product for something like 15 cents :)07:20
wolfspraulI should add my finder's fee.07:21
tuxbrain_awaythey are teachers wanting to do courses with them, just as carlos, I suppose the camara will help them to make more atractive the course07:21
wpwrakthey already have cheap slave labour (students). they really don't need wolfgang.07:22
wolfspraulheard this recently... someone wanted to make a beagleboard derivative07:23
wolfspraulgot a quote from a US company, total USD 30k for the small runs and until they can sell something07:24
wolfspraulsounds perfectly fine to me07:24
wolfspraulif you wanted to do this in China, it would still be USD 15-20k if you actually want something that runs later07:24
wolfspraulbelow that, the likelihood of the stuff you are getting not working goes up07:25
wolfspraula little bit with every grand that you 'save' from the price07:25
wolfspraulbelow 5k I'd say the chance of the boards not working must be somewhere at 99% :-)07:25
wolfspraulbut hey...07:25
wolfspraulthere is always a buyer stupid enough to not understand what they are getting into07:25
wolfsprauland: they pre-pay! :-)07:25
wolfspraulso let's turn on the machines for them :-)07:26
wpwrakit's perfect. the manager who decides to do this gets a bonus for the cost saving and then they can blame those evil chinese.07:26
wolfspraulbut since I'm marketing my own products and doing customer service, returns etc. myself I am totally not interested in such business07:27
wolfspraulof course,that's exactly how it is07:27
wolfspraulbut the Chinese don't care, they are pretty good at smiling07:27
wolfspraulthe transaction was profitable...07:27
wolfspraulbut like I said, I am doing customer service, returns, warranty etc. myself07:27
wolfspraulso sorry I don't want to go there...07:27
wpwrakyeah, you should do china manufacturing consulting07:28
wpwrakfor each task, find a lot of really cheap ones and a few expensive but good ones. add a fat margin to the cheap ones (they'll still be cheap). then let the customer pick. advise them that you've only worked with the expensive ones before and that you'd recommend them.07:29
wpwrakof course, they will pick a cheap one. you're covered and you're getting pre-paid too. if you pull it of smoothly, they may even come back ;-))07:30
wpwrakif one of the cheap orders my some miracle turns out right, slap an even fatter margin on that one (your finder's fee) for the next customers and thus create a middle price segment. you can only win ;-)07:33
tuxbrain_awaymaybe I have to go to adjust my glasses lens but I dont find the delete button option any place...07:33
wolfspraulthere should be a little drop down icon left of the search field07:34
wolfspraulassuming you are using the (default) vector skin07:34
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: another question about the stickers in the gift package: do you see the improvement to the prior ones? do you think the new ones are actually usable in the field?07:35
wolfspraulif you want more you can get more, no problem. just make sure they go to people who really use them, not just throw in the drawer.07:35
tuxbrain_awayoh sure! i forget to commet it also,yes, they look very more profesional ended the the previouse ones07:36
tuxbrain_awaymaybe I miss urls on them07:38
tuxbrain_awaylike the milkymist one07:38
wolfspraulhmm, OK good point07:40
wolfspraulfirst I want to get the quality under control, then the design07:40
wolfspraulI think the quality of the new stickers is pretty good, given all the stickers I have seen in recent months.07:40
wolfspraulsome really cool ones use nylon or so, but they can only have one color on white.07:41
tuxbrain_awaypersonally the coolers ones are the transparent that you can put in the laptop lid ,  but this is matter of taste07:45
wolfspraullatop lid? can you find an example url?07:48
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: did you find the delete now?07:50
tuxbrain_awayI said laptop lead due is tipical , (or at least here in spain)07:51
tuxbrain_awaybut you can put them anyplace :)07:51
tuxbrain_awayyes I see it :)07:51
tuxbrain_awaypicture elimiated07:52
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: can I repost your NanoWar "Dear friends" message as a Qi Press Release?07:53
tuxbrain_awayFSFE has one with it's logo, and we also do one with tuxbrain logo07:54
wolfspraulI need to fill some news and stuff into my new news system :-)07:54
tuxbrain_awayI have also redacted one of schist in spanish pending on translation to english, and we have ready one of the 3d scans english/spanish ready to publish07:55
wolfspraulah OK, great!07:56
wpwrakah, damn. my cache removal as too gentle. it didn't actually rebuild everything :-(07:59
wpwrakso, a full kill then. see how *that* goes07:59
wolfspraulwhat are you deleting?08:12
wolfspraulI see a _gitsch2ps sometimes popping up in the git/ folder?08:12
wolfspraulI forgot where it was, but definitely not in a project-specific location08:12
wpwrakall the files under output/board-qi-avt2/08:12
wolfspraulah OK, that's what I do08:13
wolfspraulbut the _gitsch2ps comes and goes while the script is running, and it's in a more global location somewhere I think08:13
wpwrakand the ghosts are back :-(08:13
wpwrakyes, that's okay08:13
wpwrak_gitsch2ps is temporary for checking out the repository. after that, schhist2web copes the few interesting files, i.e., the postscript, to its cache and deletes _gitsch2ps08:14
wpwrakoh, interesting. those ghosts also exist in my build. that's good. now .. where did they creep in ...08:16
wpwrak(my build on fidelio)08:18
wpwraknaturally, they don't show up on my local build. that would be too easy.08:19
wolfspraulwpwrak: about fped in qi/openmoko - the only thing Xiangfu is doing on the qi side right now is to do everything necessary to make it a clean Debian package and get it into Debian itself. that may include source code modifications but most likely won't. definitely no feature work.08:37
wolfspraulwhether you then want to move this Debian packaging stuff to om, and we delete the qi location, or vice versa, is entirely up to you08:37
wolfspraulunless you totally dislike the Debian packaging work, I would hope we move it to one location though08:38
wolfspraulthe openmoko svn location is already known as upstream on the Fedora side, so maybe just move the Debian stuff there once it's all done08:38
wolfspraulbut in that case, Xiangfu should make sure to always list the openmoko svn location as well whereever it makes sense in the Debian files08:38
wolfspraulit's not an urgent decision to make yet, given how fast (slow) things move at Debian, but at some point it would be good if you could decide what you want to do with this Debian packaging stuff, and where to move it08:39
wolfspraulmaybe in a few weeks...08:39
wolfspraulrafa: I added 'Jlime dual booting' right on the homepage now!09:51
wolfspraulmaybe a bit premature since the patent stuff is still not sorted out I think, but whatever09:51
wolfspraulit's 'upcoming' right?09:51
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: great :) that is more than few love, that's compromise09:52
wolfspraulI try to beef up the homepage a little09:52
wolfspraulthe news section is now auto generated from the 'News' category09:52
wolfspraulat the bottom I added a nice visitors chart, but it's still using flash I need to fix that, get rid of Flash09:53
wolfspraulI need to work on the upcoming section a bit, and pretty much everything else as well :-)09:53
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: btw http://www.tuxbrain.com/en/content/solidify-gpl-tool-align-3d-scans09:53
wolfspraulalso there is a link to the Qi RSS feed right smack in the middle of the hp now09:53
wolfspraulwe've had almost 300,000 visitors to the homepage so far09:54
wolfsprauland we didn't do them a very good service... that will change...09:54
tuxbrain_awaywow, 300.000 month?09:54
wolfspraulno no09:54
wolfspraulsince beginning09:55
tuxbrain_awayok :)09:55
wolfspraulnow maybe 500 / day09:55
wolfspraulwithout news09:55
wolfspraulI try to count as conservative as possible, I hope Piwik does that09:55
wolfspraulso they take out all visits from people with admin accounts, etc.09:55
wolfspraulhey, great text!09:56
wolfspraulman you are so ahead of me09:56
wolfspraul(talking about Solidify)09:56
rafawolfspraul: several months ago there was some news at qi about "soon jlime also will have a version for nn".. and it finally appeared, so jlime will have a version free of patent problems soon ;) .. at least as kristoffer and me agreed, from your talks about patents which were a good thing09:57
kristianpaulare you planing build this free of patent version in qi servers, rafa ?09:59
kristianpauljust to put more work on the qi-bot :)09:59
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: btw this new is from victor ;) you know, show a 3d pic to a designer geek and he will come crazy :P10:00
wolfspraulwerner is innovating so fast and in so many areas that we can't even keep up writing the news for it...10:00
rafakristianpaul: :) no yet, because we are discussing our own way into jlime projetc yet.. but we can do something in the future. At least it will be possible to have some jlime versions on qi or resellers servers.10:02
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: it's not Alsberger, his last name is Almesberger10:07
tuxbrain_awayAl for friends, ok fixing it10:08
kristianpaulrafa:ok the idea is a least be able to follow your commits and changes :)10:08
kristianpaulrafa: and right now there is a build server for openqrt , why not for OE/Jlime10:09
wolfspraulwait wait, we don't want to move everything to one single point of failure10:10
wolfspraulkristianpaul: if Jlime is able to do their builds now, they should just continue to use that system10:11
wolfspraulof course they can have an account anywhere they like, but I am a big believer in need-driven decision making :-)10:11
kristianpaulwolfspraul: about point of failure, no my point was at least keep easy track of their work as is now considered in the dual boot combo10:13
kristianpaulwolfspraul: agreed if they are okay they dont need such us build platform10:14
wolfspraulI'm sure they have RCS and what not, they are doing this for years already. Let's see what they say they need :-)10:15
kristianpauli not sure but i never saw a commint bot in jlime channel, so i never noticed when something chnage in their code..10:15
rafakristianpaul: there is a build server in jlime, which I do not use much, but I should. Anyway, we always report the changes in every version writting a changelog, and we try to send that news on every tool we use (ml, forums, wiki), so you know what we did. If you would like to know which new packages will appear, etc.. then you would like to follow the OE news which we use. For the rootfs image you can suggest whatever you want using any tool (bugtracker,10:15
wpwrakback from a nap ... catching up ...10:16
kristianpaulrafa: yes what about a git or soemthing that allow technically track the code, beyond reading a changelog wich is great but not fully detailed (about what chnage in the code)10:16
kristianpauli _understand_ if you just want keep your code safe in home a never make it public ;) wich i think is not the issue here10:17
kristianpaulbut my point is just that (trackable jlime code) no more10:18
kristianpaulyou had been doinng great work in other areas like wiki, news, etc..10:18
wolfspraulwpwrak: tuxbrain_away wrote a great article about Solidify!10:19
rafakristianpaul: which code? examples? we are not writting code all the time. From time to time we write some tools o tiny apps, which we upload (sources).10:19
wolfspraulalready published, aggregated in the qi planet, etc.10:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: (fped) what does the debian packaging work actually need from upstream ? do i actually have to see that at all ? (such things are usually transparent. given that the package building isn't something that i maintain anyway and that may be driven by external constraints/schedules, that's probably more natural anyway)10:20
kristianpaulrafa: sure not all the time, just when you write it :)10:20
wolfspraulwpwrak: that is up to you10:20
wolfspraulof course we can also keep the debian package separate from 'just the tarball' for good10:20
wolfspraulthat's why I suggested we first wait and see what happens in the Qi (Debian) fped10:21
wolfsprauland once that is more clear, it's up to you to decide10:21
kristianpaulrafa: you upload in wich way? to a CVS, git or just put the sources in the servr like a tar ball?10:21
wolfspraulwas just a heads up how I see it...10:21
rafakristianpaul: and we are not going to use qi servers, we will work to do some version useful for qi or whatever nn projects want to host10:21
rafakristianpaul: at least you will find the tar10:21
kristianpaulrafa: i'm not say you should, is just an option,but no rush :)10:21
kristianpauli just want make my point point of code easy to track, thats why we have GIT,CVS, Mercurial, Bazzar, etc...10:22
kristianpaulno more :)10:22
rafakristianpaul: yes, but no sure why we should use qi servers. Can you explain further why ?10:22
kristianpauljust dont get angry with me later ;)10:22
rafakristianpaul: no.. is okey.. but I do not see your points yet10:23
kristianpaulis Jlime using a CVS, GIT repo?10:23
kristianpaulfrom i see no, just tarballs all the time10:23
wolfspraulrafa: yes, thanks! :-)10:23
kristianpaulis not easy to tracka  tarball at all10:24
kristianpaulrafa: about qi severs i just pointed because indefero, or build server because i tought you dint have one (wich is not the case after you clarify it)10:24
methril_worktuxbrain_away, nice article10:25
kristianpaulso lets focus this chat in why you dont commint your code (whenever it came up) in some version control system10:25
methril_worktuxbrain_away, send my congrats to victor10:25
rafakristianpaul: every dev collaborating use his/her own svn/git whatever.. we already have a jlime development server but it is for devs so far and we do not use it much. What I do not understand is which things your want to have on git/cvs/whatever.. If you mean for the rootfs imagem which is a simple image made for OE plus extra packages, I do not see what things to track there.10:26
tuxbrain_awayI will forward it to him, he will be very happy :)10:26
rafamade from OE*10:26
kristianpaulrafa: not the root fs, just the small customozation you made to Jlime bahave well in the nanonote10:27
kristianpaulor is it in OE upstream?10:27
rafakristianpaul: and B_Lizzard is doing that job internally, which kristoffer (and him perhaps) finally sends/commits into OE10:27
kristianpauli alwasy have the dobut about it10:27
kristianpaulahh :)10:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: (fped) it's not very common to host packaging metadata in the source projects. i've done it a few times, but since i'm not the one pushing those packages anyway, it just means that this data becomes stale and packers just follow their own workflow, which means there's the metadata in their distro's repository, whichever form it takes10:27
kristianpaulrafa: so all the especific chnages for the nanotnoet and OE are comitted in OE, Okay?10:28
rafakristianpaul: which doubs?.. you want to see the "mkdir /etc/extras ; cp wallpaper.png /etc/extras/" script tracked? :) .. well that will be into OE we hope10:28
rafakristianpaul: well, no directly. We want to have something stable first10:28
wpwrak(solidify) hah, almost forgot about it :)10:29
rafakristianpaul: is it a work in progress.. ultra hiper beta.. still if you do not see bugs easily :) It is full of workarounds which we report from time to time.10:29
kristianpaulrafa: no that like a png, but maybe like adding full support for keyboard, or startup scripts10:30
rafakristianpaul: but nobody takes care because the workaround could hide some problem10:30
wpwraktuxbrain_away: nice article, thanks !! :)10:31
rafakristianpaul: the current image has the OE startup scripts + just one startx script made by jlime10:31
wpwrak(and i'm glad that you liked my description. all the while when writing it, i felt that this would be incomprehensible and really ought to have a picture :)10:31
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: grat indeed :)10:31
wpwraktuxbrain_away: (thanks ... to victor :)10:32
rafatuxbrain_away: how is victor BTW? ;) is he around on this channel?10:33
wpwrakrafa: (oe) so those receipes and patches that you've made but that haven't been sent to OE yet, where to they live ?10:34
kristianpaulrafa: ok10:34
rafawpwrak: machine devs or dev jlime server. kristoffer has commit rights into OE. And no me, other dev (B_Lizzard) is doing his job there.10:35
B_LizzardDon't look at me, he did everything.10:36
B_LizzardI'm just a bus boy.10:36
rafawpwrak: recipes, I did just one, for the minimal rootfs image. B_Lizzard is doing some more for the tiny tools around10:36
wpwrakrafa: so when you make a jlime test image for, say, the ben, you ask all the other developers to put their stuff onto the dev jlime server and then you run the build ?10:37
rafawpwrak: or do you think that we will do 1.557.876 patches for a rootfs image which is the angstrom recipe image with few adds10:37
wpwrakrafa: naw, but i would think you may have a number of receipes that you're still testing10:38
rafawpwrak: no.. I just build the angstron recipe image with few extra packages (what is: I took the angstrom recipe image and did a new one for muffinman with extra packages from OE)10:38
wolfspraulwpwrak: perfectly fine with me [fped]10:39
wolfspraullet's wait how this goes first anyway, then we settle, even though you already know how what you want to settle on10:39
wolfspraulknow now10:39
rafawpwrak: no recipes yet.. it is not something like : I know what I am doing to have the final image. It is just a work in progress.. I needed to write several tools from scratch for that tiny screen. But, tomorrow, I could say.. nahh.. i do not want how it looks, I will start a new one to compare.10:40
kristianpaulrafa: just o end our thread/chat, i'll go to OE and digg about the nanonote supprot there, and ask you/ or read your tar balls for the cosmetic work is not commited there.10:40
rafawpwrak: so until I feel that we have something useful for the some day stable version we will do prototyes.. new stuff, like tiny tools written from scratch are uploaded (sources and packages).10:40
tuxbrain_awayrafa: he is ok, sleepless as I am, and doing web changes, incharge of accounting of tuxbrain, his other job, pursuing me to deliver administrative things on time, and rising me up when I'm down, all with a smile in his face, he let me the inet public relations10:40
rafawpwrak: and we use OE as tool to have the minimal rootfs images with which we play10:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: yes. i think the current structure should pre pretty much the normal case for packaging. i.e., upstream doesn't know/care about who is using it. package maintainers keep track of upstream. otherwise, you get a cyclic dependency graph ;-)10:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: whether svn.openmoko.org is a good long-term home, however, is a different question10:41
rafawpwrak: I mean, we are not using the OE to build the final rootfs image, just for the minimal one which is already into OE. For the tiny tools we will see which ones are the best to include into OE. So you can see that we use, currently, OE to build the feed of packages and the minimal rootfs, no as a tool to develop the minimal rootfs. We would like, but we prefer to wait a bit to understand which is the10:43
wpwrakrafa: okay, that workflow sounds pretty normal. so the small stuff that you're experimenting with, that is kept in per-developer repositories ?10:44
rafabest solution to develop. Then.. when we are happy with some idea then we will continue adding recipes and stuff into OE. That means10:44
rafathat we are not happy how it is yet (we=all the few guys in jlime)10:44
wpwrakrafa: understood. you only put "mature" things into OE upstream. hence the question what you are using. since some things will live a while in that intermediate state. (or may even get killed if it turns out they're not good)10:45
rafawpwrak: yes.. that is the idea.10:45
kristianpaulah :)10:46
rafawpwrak: being nn a bit different in user experience than hp jornada.. we are learning a bit how is the best way to use the machine ;)10:46
wpwrakyup, exactly. you're still doing a lot of "polishing" work. this all makes perfect sense10:46
wpwrakrafa: what is surprising, and i think that's what kristianpaul meant, is that you don't seem to have a place where you combine the jlime things that are still being tested.10:49
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: how may visitors to tuxbrain.com do you have nowadays?10:49
kristianpaulyay !, somebody else got my point :)10:49
rafawpwrak: combine.. if you follow the links in muffinman wiki page you will find all the stuff of it. If you want to know how it is combined.. then you just read one script of 30 lines maybe? which does the modifications to the rootfs image built by OE :)10:51
wpwrakkristianpaul: hwoever, i think that's something that should live entirely inside the jlime universe. no need to create dependencies at that level between qi-hw and jlime. in fact, such dependencies could become a problem if, say, rafa is testing some MP3 player and thus would have receipes and what not for that one10:52
kristianpaulgood point (jlime universe)10:53
wpwrakrafa: (combine) i don't mean the making of the rootfs. i mean, how do you bring the meta-data (recepies, patches, whatever) to the place at which you are making the rootfs ?10:53
wpwrakrafa: the "standard" way would be to have a project-wide revision control system into which such things are checked in. so when someone wants to build a rootfs, they just check that out and run the bitbake process.10:55
rafawpwrak: I did not do any patches whatever into OE to build the rootfs. The rootfs is just the angstrom rootfs image recipe that I copied with the muffinman name and added there a bit more of package names.10:56
wpwrakrafa: but you wrote before that there is no central revision control system for jlime and that things are distributed instead.10:56
wpwrakrafa: yes, i understand that you're not changing upstream :) but what if, say, B_Lizzard wants your rootfs plus a package he's working on ? does he have to ask you to mail him your additions ?10:57
rafawpwrak: he does that in his machine at home and show the idea, at least :)10:57
wpwrakrafa: alright, but how does he get your changes. the changes that are not in OE yet.10:58
rafawpwrak: again.. I do not have changes.. it is just a script which takes the image built from OE and add some stuff. NO more :)10:58
wpwrakrafa: but "add some stuff" is a change, no ?10:59
rafawpwrak: and all of that stuff is found if you follow the links10:59
wpwrakah .. wait. lemme see if i get this. you generate a "generic" rootfs image from OE. then you modify this binary rootfs to add your experimental changes ?11:00
rafayes.. and experimental is just (cp wallpaper, cp this-game, cp something more.. cp few icons, exit)11:01
wpwrakhttp://jlime.com/wiki/index.php/Jlime_Muffinman -> The requested operation could not be completed. Cyclic Link Detected.11:02
rafaand something_more are few tools written .. sources and packages are on the site. and the sources do not change. or at least those are few tinies to change a lot11:02
rafawpwrak: i find that link as well if I check muffinman and jlime in google. I do not get the proper link that B_Lizzard pointed11:03
wpwrakB_Lizzard: thanks !11:04
rafaB_Lizzard: no idea why, you?11:04
B_LizzardMail administrator@google.com11:04
wpwrakrafa: (cp) ah, i see. so the extra packages would be the ones from from http://jlime.com/downloads/repository/extra-packages/nanonote/11:04
B_LizzardThe idea is getting everything in OE11:04
B_LizzardI haven't followed the discussion but that's my idea11:05
wpwrakB_Lizzard: understood. but while you're still testing, things don't get pushed yet, or do they ?11:05
rafawpwrak: yes.. and some of them are there (on extra packages) because we wrote those to test how thoes look or some of them did not built well from OE11:05
B_LizzardThings will be pushed in a few days11:05
B_LizzardMost of the base system is done11:05
B_LizzardWhat remains for me is to port applications11:05
rafaB_Lizzard: like fileselector? or is it there?11:06
wpwrakrafa: (extra) precisely. so everyone who is working on those things that are still not ready for pushing to OE will just upload their work to http://jlime.com/downloads/repository/extra-packages/nanonote/ ?11:06
B_Lizzardfileselector segaults, I'll fix that11:06
B_LizzardI produced a testing userland here11:07
rafawpwrak: yes, if he wants.. like an anarchy :).. but well, at least it would be useful if he/she asks what to do :)11:07
wpwrakB_Lizzard: yup, i understand that these things are transitional. i'm just curious how you guys manage those things while they're not yet in OE.11:07
B_LizzardThis is somewhat unrelated to rafa's work, but in time both will merge11:07
B_LizzardI implement things rafa has done in OE11:08
B_LizzardIn the form of recipes11:08
B_LizzardFor now these things live in my PC11:08
wpwrakokay, so it's basically an ad hoc process. everyone does their thing, and if you want to combine, you need to discuss each case11:08
B_LizzardFor now.11:08
B_LizzardI'm working on implementing the stuff rafa has done into OE11:08
B_LizzardI've only had the Nanonote for what, 5 days?11:09
B_LizzardSo stuff is moving fast.11:09
wpwrakB_Lizzard: nobody is complaining about you're work ;-)))11:09
DocScrutinizermuffinman? Zappa?11:09
B_LizzardIt comes with a complementary mustache11:10
rafawpwrak: well, because we are few ones we already know what others/we did before, so no much to discuss.. we discuss from time to time to do something and no get bored :P11:10
wpwrakB_Lizzard: i'm just curious about how that workflow is organized.11:10
B_LizzardIt's not.11:10
B_LizzardFor now11:10
kristianpauli knew it !11:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: bingo ! ;-)11:10
rafaB_Lizzard: am the owner of jlime IIRC11:10
rafaI AM11:11
B_LizzardMy work is basically flailing around, trying to assemble bits and pieces from /dev/urandom into workable programs11:11
B_LizzardIn any case, the main issues are with software11:12
wpwrakB_Lizzard: so the goodies rafa does, how do you get them ? does he mail you the patches/tools/etc. ? or does he have an svn or such somewhere ?11:12
B_LizzardMost of the stuff is upstream work11:12
B_LizzardThere aren't many custom things which are of use to me11:12
rafafor me it is like an anarchy.. but at the same time we have a leader/main developer :)11:12
B_LizzardUntil we get our own OE branch going along with a git server it will remain so11:13
rafaso it is confussing.. he is a dictator surely11:13
wpwrakrafa: if you ask everyone in the team who is the leader, how many answers will you get ? ;-)11:13
B_LizzardStuff will end up in upstream OE in time11:13
B_LizzardI'm the only one with op, so anyone who says otherwise is banned fo life11:14
wpwrakB_Lizzard: yes. it was that branch and git that kristianpaul and me were trying to locate on the map :)11:14
rafawpwrak: ;-) .. few days ago some guy said that he is the owner of the Mendoza LUG  and that he has a certificate which says that11:14
rafawpwrak: so I could try something like that11:14
B_Lizzardwpwrak, I'm working on that too11:14
wpwrakB_Lizzard: (op) not here ;-)11:14
kristianpaulrafa: i support anarchy as good/open comunication protocols :)11:15
kristianpaulok i just can say be Free guys !! :)11:16
rafakristianpaul: yeah :) .. at least we use the chat channel :P.. you can imagine, no chat, no mails.. just a ftp server11:16
B_LizzardWhile we're at it, I'd like a Nanonote based on the dual core atom and 2GB of RAM please11:17
B_LizzardI heard it's super efficient11:17
rafaB_Lizzard: easy.. but what about the screen?11:17
B_LizzardMake it a *Retina Display*11:17
wpwrakB_Lizzard: don't forget the full HD 3D dual-head display while you're at it. without making the device larger, naturally11:17
B_LizzardI'll contact the suits at Qi about it11:18
tuxbrain_awayB_Lizzard:  just pay 10.000 unit in advance and we will do it11:18
rafatuxbrain_away: I heard that before11:18
kristianpaulchina rules? :)11:18
tuxbrain_awayno wolfwang rules :)11:18
wpwraktuxbrain_away: better make that 100 kU. with just 10 kU you don't break even. been there, seen it sink :)11:18
DocScrutinizera supplementary link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcm7uJ74XFI&list=QL&feature=BF :-D11:19
wpwraktuxbrain_away: of course, if it's pre-paid, then things may be okay. there are many nice countries where B_Lizzard won't find you ;-)11:19
tuxbrain_awayfor 10kU we do it, for 100kU we do it cheaper11:19
B_LizzardDid anyone check the userland out?11:20
DocScrutinizer(hear my whistles in the audience :-D )11:21
tuxbrain_awayif he has enough money to pay 100kU in advance for a such a project there is no so much countries where I can hide...11:21
wpwraktuxbrain_away: well, you'll be rich, he'll be poor ;-)11:22
wpwraktuxbrain_away: and even if he's still rich, the'll eventually get robbed while searching all the shady corners of the world for you :)11:23
rafatuxbrain_away: victor: great :) .. so a good partner ..11:23
tuxbrain_awayrafa:the best :)11:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: nice C++ [in german] http://www.heise.de/developer/artikel/C-Vor-und-Nachteile-des-d-Zeiger-Idioms-Teil-1-1097781.html11:24
tuxbrain_awayDocScrutinizer: wtf is that? ok at least the music has started :)11:24
tuxbrain_awayc u later guys11:25
B_LizzardI quit11:27
wolfspraulis this text serious or a joke11:32
wolfspraulyou never really know with C++11:32
wolfspraulthat language is the biggest screw-up and most over-hyped pos ever in programming in the last 30 years at least11:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: it does seem that the guy is serious ;-)11:33
wolfspraulwell it is that bad11:33
wolfspraulactually only scratching the surface of the badness, but still11:33
wolfspraulso yeah, maybe it is serious11:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: and it would indeed solve a problem i've noticed as well. the simple (in C) task of splitting a big messy function into parts, without changing the publicly visible header file11:34
wolfspraulyes it won't work11:34
wolfspraulI have written much cleaner and more object oriented code in C than would even be possible in C++11:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's probably no surprise that KiCad has quite a number of deeply obscure huge functions. simple because what should be a local implementation detail becomes something that looks much bigger11:35
wolfspraulunless you only use the C subset of C++, that is :-)11:35
wpwrakheh ;-)11:35
kristoffernot sure why I announce it, must be some misplaced ego thing11:36
wolfspraulin years before we met, I was a full-time coder, mostly C and C++, but also others as needed11:36
wolfsprauland I admit, I also had the goal of understanding and using 100% of C++, reading the entire Stroustrup cover to cover etc.11:37
wolfspraulpainful memories11:37
kristofferwolfspraul, Im having a hard time deciding between C vs C++. You would say, stick with C?11:38
wpwraksins of the youth :) i started with BASIC :)11:38
wolfspraulkristoffer: oh my god, what a question11:38
wolfspraulare you serious?11:38
wolfspraul_PLLEEAASSSE_, for the love of god, stick with C11:39
kristofferyes, unfortunantly. Im doing a programming project on the side :) and been considering rewriting everything to C++, just to get it fancy objectified. I have a fantasy that it will be easier to expand then11:39
wpwrakkristianpaul: my advice: stick with C. but it's okay to use C++ while at the toilet.11:40
wolfspraulC is the more object oriented language than C++11:40
wolfspraulC++ is a confused piece of nonsense11:40
wolfspraulI speak from experience (which of course you are free to ignore)11:40
wolfspraulmany years experience11:40
wpwrakone problem with C is that it takes a long time to really understand. longer than many other languages. of course, with C++ that goal may be completely unattainable (or self-defeating)11:41
wpwraksome of the beauty and love for detail of C you will only discover when trying to write a compiler (or similar)11:42
wolfspraulyou can become a master of C in a few years, and then focus on using this tool to solve a problem you have11:43
wolfspraulwith C++, even after 10 years you will still be discovering new layers of nonsense regularly11:43
wolfsprauland your mind will be spinning with all the templates, STL, multiple virtual mega inheritance, and what not crazy idea some other C++ coder might have had that you need to decipher11:44
wolfspraulkristoffer: I would suggest this11:44
wolfspraulif someone wants to push you towards C++, just tell them that you love object orientation, and C is the more object oriented language11:45
wolfspraulif they don't agree, tell them they may have mixed up something11:45
wolfspraulleave it there11:45
kristofferIve used C for 6-7 years or so now, and I really like it. What Im pondering is if its easier to keep a large code base in C++ rather than C. Or if its better just to spend my time writing more organized11:45
wolfspraulthe latter!!!!11:46
wolfspraulwho gave you this idea that C++ would help you with that?11:46
wolfspraulthe opposite is true, the larger the project the better it is manageable with C11:47
wolfsprauleven a small project can be blown up significantly with C++11:47
wpwrakkristoffer: would the linux kernel be a sufficiently large codebase to convince you ? :)11:47
wolfspraula large one will totally crack down under loads of nonsense11:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: i thnk that's why they invented refacturing :)11:48
mthyou can code in C99 and get some of the more useful features of C++, like "for (int i = 0"11:49
wolfspraulthe C++ language does have something going for it11:49
wolfspraulyou only need to remember one thing about it, which is to never use its features11:50
mthand a bool type11:50
wolfspraulif you run into a C++ compiler, only use the C subset11:50
wolfspraulto be safe, use the -C99 command line options or such to avoid making a grave mistake11:50
kristofferwolfspraul, wpwrak other coders around me are talking alot about C++ and D so thats why Im having this aquired doubts11:50
wpwraktypical C++ workflow: monday 08:00 to 19:00 fix bugs. 19:00-21:00 write something new. monday 21:00 to sunday 04:00, refactoring. sunday 04:00-05:00 get really drunk. sunday 05:00-12:00 hit your head against table, wall, door, etc. sunday 12:00 pass out. and the cycle repeats.11:50
osokurowolfspraul: As long as you never try to accomplish anything with C++, it'll never let you down, eh? ;)11:51
wpwrakkristoffer: they're scared of your efficiency and envy your happiness. so they want to destroy both.11:51
mthkristoffer: D might be an actual step forwards, although I never used it myself11:51
wolfspraulosokuro: yes!11:51
mthC++ is more like a step sideways imo: it has useful features, but the immense complexity is a huge problem11:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: (C++ as C) that should also help with benighted APIs that are written for C++. you can limit the exposure :)11:53
kristofferOne thing that I have noticed though is the impressive ways a simple program can segfault, since it in C++ doesnt run linear in the same sense as C11:53
wolfspraulmth: agreed. the 'immense complexity' means that you always need to be careful to not use 99% of what the language offers11:53
wolfspraulthat's a hard discipline to hold up11:53
mthdepending on what you are writing, Java might also be an option: you get the classes from C++ with only a fraction of the complexity11:53
wolfspraulOK i reduce that to 95%11:53
osokuroWhat, if you never use C++ it'll only let you down 5% of the time?11:54
mthpersonally I love Python, but that is a good choice for a very different set of problems than C is11:55
wpwrakwolfgang's IRC client, written in C++, just crashed11:56
kristofferAre there any limits on the location of the uImage in a partition, with regards to u-boot?11:57
kristofferwpwrak, lol11:57
osokurowpwrak: with all that complexity there's plenty of room for emergent attitude problems.11:58
osokuroIt's not buggy, just mean-spirited.12:00
wpwrakkristoffer: NAND or uSD partition ?12:00
wpwrakkristoffer: you mean physcial location (occupied blocks) or depth in the directory hierarchy ?12:01
kristofferloading file "/boot/uImage" from mmc device 0:1 (xxa1) \0 ext2fs_devread() read outside partition sector 270008416 \0 ** File not found /boot/uImage12:01
kristofferIll try and reinstall it and see what happens. just weird.12:02
wpwrakthat sounds like a bug or bad filesystem/partition12:03
wpwrakah, how big is the uSD ?12:03
wpwraki thnk there is a bug in u-boot that affects uSDs of 8 or 16 GB (and maybe larger)12:04
kristofferwpwrak, only 4G so it sounds weird12:08
kristofferIll reformat and install12:08
kristianpaulwpwrak: thanks, actually  i was reading the other time then an ANSI C book12:12
Action: kristianpaul stick to C and ASM for low level things12:12
kristianpauland python just for fun :)12:13
kristianpaulnow i can trought to the windows a C++ book i have some wherer in the house12:14
wpwrakkristianpaul: keep it for a barbecue ?12:14
Action: FrankBlues waves12:23
Last message repeated 1 time(s).12:23
osokuroHiya, FrankieBlues.12:24
Action: djbclark notes to a left wolfspraul that he is, in fact, still alive, and even close to doing US distribution of Ben Nanonote.12:49
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: clean up the Build-Depends.  http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/a6136d012:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: use the new version rules. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/22104c312:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add the manual page manual/fped.1 http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/9525b6b12:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add debian/fped.manpages  for install manpage http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/21e7a4312:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add DESTDIR to Makefile. http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/af26e0b12:58
kristianpauldjbclark: you are distributing in the US right?12:58
djbclarkkristianpaul: Will be soon. Finding a fufillment house was fail due to minimum monthly requirements of various types (but research will hopefully be useful for future).12:59
djbclarkSo I'm getting a contractor to ship them. Just brought all 50 over to his place a few days ago. But it will still be a bit before they go up on the website.13:00
djbclarkAlso http://librewrt.org is near a place where we can offer it preloaded as an option, so also kinda-sorta waiting on that.13:01
Action: djbclark probably has email he need to reply to from wolfgang, like everyone else... the "put important things off until you can reply to them completly and thoughtfully" method isn't working out so well :-/13:03
djbclark(also yet another friend-in-crisis situation, mostly over now... arg)13:04
kristianpaulif the Ben hit US market will be awesome, north americans really buy lot of stuff :)13:04
kristianpauldjbclark: what about FSF/RMS tought about this copyleft hardware movement?13:06
kristianpaulcan you share us soemthing that are aware off abbout this topic?13:06
kristianpaulmay be as librewrt get ready for Ben they may recomend the device?13:08
djbclarkkristianpaul: so FSF/RMS still come at it from a very software-centric POV; they just don't want anything that the user would usually modify to be nonfree software. Unfortunatly this sometimes clashes with the realities of the hardware world, but I have high hopes that eventually we will get to a place that will satisfy everyone.13:08
kristianpaulas the did int the openmoko times13:08
kristianpaulwhen iphone was introducing in the market13:08
xiangfuHi All. I have uploaded a fped Debian package to : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/fped/downloads/54/13:09
xiangfu(the manpage is not finish. :)13:09
djbclarkkristianpaul: Even more so than with Openmoko, I'm unaware of anything other than the GNU Distribution that would have prevented FSF from endorsing Ben Nanonote, and LibreWRT should fix that. However you should be aware that not everyone really wants or things FSF endorsement will be useful; thae prof or disproof will be if there is a sizable spike in sales after it happens or not :-)13:09
kristianpaulxiangfu: great !13:10
kristianpaulxiangfu: go sleep then ! :)13:10
xiangfukristianpaul: yes. :)13:10
xiangfusee you.13:13
osokuroDoes anyone know if an .ipk of the Sarien interpreter ever got built? all I can seem to find is a .diff13:24
SiENcEhey bartbes, any news for nlove and a sdl_sound module?17:53
bartbesSiENcE: sorry man, swamped17:53
bartbesrl's a bitch17:53
SiENcEyep i know17:53
bartbesanyway, I should get some free time in about 3 weeks17:54
bartbesbut.. ehm.. *should*17:54
SiENcEwhat else is on todo for nlove?17:55
SiENcEthere are some missing functions like setlinewidth aso17:55
bartbesyeah, graphics lacks quite some features17:56
bartbesbecause I had to rewrite it17:56
SiENcEyea i know17:57
SiENcEwhat about the nice particle system?17:57
SiENcEnot possible?17:57
bartbesit's probably possible18:00
bartbesbut tbh I'm not really good at graphics :P18:00
bartbesbe glad I got this far18:01
SiENcEme too18:03
SiENcEbut its cool for prototyping18:03
SiENcEif we know what does not work on nlove, we can remember this during development on pc18:04
bartbesyeah, I should all wrap it up18:04
bartbesbut as I said, swamped18:04
SiENcEis there a thread in love forum?18:05
SiENcEabout nlove?18:05
SiENcEor is it your own secret project?18:05
bartbesit is kind of.. hidden18:06
bartbesthe irc regulars know about it18:06
bartbesor should..18:06
SiENcElove2d irc?18:07
SiENcEor here?18:07
SiENcEi have to go now.ok cya18:16
wpwrakbartbes: btw, i'm a bit puzzled about this love thingy of yours. i see that there are some very nice games that have been implemented with it, yet what people talk about here tends to be at the level of worms or pong. why the gap ? i.e., why isn't there a huge flood of existing sexy games that come to the ben with love ?18:29
bartbeswpwrak: well because of the few people who know about it18:30
tuxbrain_awayI have a question what is the correct expresion for  working time in a job18:34
qbjectI first heard about löve on the Pandora boards. I remember there were concerns that some of its dependencies interfered with its portability (which is one of the otherwise unquestionably awesome things about Lua.)18:34
tuxbrain_awayin spanish is horario laboral18:34
tuxbrain_awaythe google translation doesn't sounds me very acurate "working hours"18:37
bartbesqbject: probably opengl though18:37
bartbessounds about right..18:37
bartbesor at least, my knowledge of french hints at that18:38
wpwrakbartbes: so love-based games aren't automatically portable to all platforms supported by love ?18:40
bartbestechnically speaking it isn't officially supported yet18:41
wpwraktuxbrain_away: depends on the perspective. can be working hours, office hours, opening hours, etc.18:41
bartbesand no, nlove will be following the uLove spec18:41
bartbesnote that uLove games will be fully compatible with 'full' love18:42
wpwrakah, nlove = nanonote-love ?18:42
tuxbrain_awayseems working ours is apropiate then thanks a lot #translation :P18:42
qbjectbartbes: Yep, now that you mention it, OpenGL was one issue, especially as the Pandora runs OpenGL ES.18:43
bartbeswell, nlove runs on SDL18:43
wpwraktuxbrain_away: or work hours :) maybe that's more common.18:43
Action: qbject thinks nLove is a pretty sexy idea18:53
qbjectam i allowed to say that?18:58
wpwrakbartbes: i wonder if there's a leisure suit larry derivate on it yet. would be fitting ;)20:53
wolfspraulaisa: you there?22:06
wolfspraulmirko looked into the problem with owner and permission info for the data/files in openwrt not being copied into the rootfs, but he couldn't reproduce the problem and says owners and permissions are copied into the rootfs22:07
wolfsprauldo you still have this problem?22:07
aisawolfspraul: I am, though I suspect I'm now too late.23:57
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