#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-09-14

kyakrafa: are you there? could please give the mencoder line to encode video files best suited for mplayer in Jlime? I know i can see it in README, but Ben is not at hand right now03:30
kyakrafa: nevermind, got it from irc logs (thanks tuxbrain2) :)04:13
kyakgoing to match some video in air plane, if it works well04:17
kyakwatch even04:17
kyakbtw, recentkly i left Ben running for a night. I can say this it can handle at least 12 hours of autonomous idling :)04:18
kyak(but i also have three additional batteries from my old Nokias just in case)04:19
Ornotermesoops, wrong window04:32
kyakoh no! i almost followed your link! ;)04:32
Ornotermeskyak: you better be careful, it's totally unrelated to qi-hardware :P04:33
kyaki know, it's "wrong window"! there could be Anything by you link.. thanks god i didn't open it :D04:35
rafakyak: did you check muffinamn wiki?05:04
rafawell, it has ffmpeg instructions, maybe mencoder is better if you have the proper arguments to add05:04
kyakrafa: np, i've figured it out05:24
kyakrafa: also, does Jlime have ubi-tools for mounting ubifs?05:24
kyaki'd copy those files to NAND memory because microSD is only 256 Mb05:25
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update upstream_versin. since we use git http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/3fa922f05:43
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add how to create source tarball to INSTALL http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/9e192ed05:43
xiangfuhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programmer_Day :)08:57
viricxiangfu: worth celebrating!09:10
aisa_The package I am trying to port requires pyexpat.09:50
aisa_Normally, this is part of the standard python distribution.09:50
aisa_I have found this module with make menuconfig,09:50
aisa_and I *think* after that I rebuild the python module:09:50
aisa_make package/feeds/packages/python-compile V=9909:50
aisa_is that the correct module to build pyexpat?09:51
xiangfuaisa_: by ./scritps/feeds search expat. it's give me :09:51
xiangfupython-expat             Python support for expat09:51
aisa_a new trick!  Hooray!09:51
aisa_Thank you xiangfu.09:51
xiangfuaisa_: so you better run this: make package/python-expat/compile V=9909:52
xiangfuaisa_: first you need select 'python-expat' in 'make menuconfig' before run 'make package....'09:52
aisa_Yes, good.  I've performed that step.09:53
aisa_I get the following error:09:54
aisa_make[1]: *** No rule to make target `package/python-expat/compile'.  Stop.09:54
larsc`make package/python/compile`09:58
aisa_dang, something happened to my build tree:10:02
aisa_/home/a/wa/tracking-xburst/staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.32/usr/bin/../lib/gcc/mipsel-openwrt-linux-uclibc/4.3.3/../../../../mipsel-openwrt-linux-uclibc/bin/ld: warning: ld-uClibc.so.0, needed by /home/a/wa/tracking-xburst/staging_dir/toolchain-mipsel_gcc-4.3.3+cs_uClibc-0.9.32/usr/lib/libc.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)10:03
aisa_This worked the last time I was here :-(10:03
aisa_trying to build libtool.10:04
aisa_I'll run make clean and start from the beginning unless someone knows what changed in the repo the last few days...10:05
xiangfuaisa_: never touch the toolchain section.10:19
aisa_xiangfu: Did I?10:24
aisa_hello derRichard!10:24
xiangfuaisa_: I mean no one have commit anything about libtool and toolchain10:26
xiangfuaisa_: I think there is something wrong with your 'make clean'. I never run 'make clean'10:27
aisa_I ran make clean, but it failed again, so I ran make distclean.10:27
aisa_and I'm trying one more time...10:27
aisa_xiangfu: On fidelio, python-expat compiled fine.  I'm not sure why my VM was trashed, but as it is rebuilding, and I have a package, I'll call it user error.10:42
derRicharddoes mplayer work on ben? ingenic seems to have a port10:57
aisa_derRichard: I haven't tried mplayer yet, so I'm not sure if it works.11:00
derRicharda videoplayer would be nice to have :)11:02
aisa_derRichard: What would you be using it for?  Would you mind talking about your use case?11:03
derRichardwatching movies would be great on ben.11:04
aisa_You would in this case then have a movie on a microSD card, plug it in, and want to watch the movie off of it?11:04
aisa_Got it.  Very interesting.  I wonder if the battery is up to a full length movie, streamed from the card and decompressed.11:06
aisa_In theory it should, but I haven't tested the battery at load yet.11:06
aisa_(I've had my NanoNote for <24 hours...)11:06
derRichardmy nn plays musik up to 7 hours11:06
derRichardusing gmp11:06
aisa_excellent.  You have the music on a microsd card?11:07
aisa_or is it on the on-board storage?11:07
derRichardfor now only on the on-board storage :(11:07
derRichardi don't own a microsd card. because i don't have a real use case for it.11:08
derRichardbtw: a really nice use case would be ben as a password database11:09
derRichardas i described here: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-September/005451.html11:09
aisa_I was the one who replied with what I'm currently using, which was not satisfactory for you.11:10
aisa_I was trying to remember which password database I have tried,11:11
aisa_I seem to recall one that worked iteratively, such that it asked one question then the next, until it got an answer.11:11
aisa_I wonder if that one would have a smaller screen size requirement.11:11
derRichardah ok. you are alan?11:13
aisa_I am.  My IRC nickname is from a long time ago.11:14
aisa_Today I would use my real name :-)11:14
derRichardmy irc nick is also quite old. anyway. cmp (console password manager) has is also very strange to use. using crtl plus a lot other keys sucks on ben's keyboard.11:16
derRichardi can provide ipkgs for cmp. it was a pain in the ass to cross compile it11:16
aisa_I do plan on using a password manager on the NanoNote, but it is a fair bit down on my list yet.  I'm not ready to test anything right away.11:17
aisa_Let me follow that up by saying that I do think the NanoNote needs a password manager, preferably one that works well with the keyboard and screen.11:20
aisa_having anything is better than having nothing,11:20
aisa_and taking that and making it something easy to use is a necessary, but second, step.11:20
wpwrakderRichard: agreed on the password manager being an interesting application. that was about the first thing that crossed my mind when i saw the device.11:25
wpwrakderRichard: in a way, it turns one the ben's biggest shortcoming, lack of communication, into a feature :)11:25
derRichardthat's true11:25
derRichardwhen i have some spare time i'll write my own passwort manager for ben using qt.11:26
wpwrakderRichard: however, in terms of practical use, i think the ability to "type" passwords automatically would be desirable. ideally, over a wireless interface (for ease of handling)11:26
wpwrakderRichard: hence my interest in wpan :)11:26
wpwrakderRichard: i'm not sure you want anything as complex as Qt in a password manager. ideally, a password manager would not even link to libc. unless, of course, you've reviewed it :)11:27
aisa_wpwrak: Are you going to wrap your own system calls?11:27
wpwrakaisa_: it's easy11:28
derRichardnot linking against libc does not help against wrapping system calls...11:28
wpwrakderRichard: to avoid accidental exploits. e.g., when sensitive information gets stored where it is more persistent than one expects.11:28
aisa_derRichard: could you reword that double negative?  I can't parse it.11:29
wpwrakderRichard: i think aisa_  means the little bits of code that jump into the system call handler11:29
aisa_wpwrak: just because you can doesn't mean you should, I'm not sure I understand why you want to avoid libC but then have to write bits of libC?11:29
derRichardanyway, when you cannot trust your os then you are fucked in any case...11:29
aisa_Would it not be better to validate/check those portions of libC and use them?11:30
derRichardand what about the kernel? the system calls are kernel stuff. libc helps you only to call them...11:30
wpwrakaisa_: well, there would be very little of libc you actually need. the simple things are easy to replace. the harder things can be a risk.11:30
bartbesaisa_: I think he means when you hook the more lower-level calls, i.e. the kernel ones11:30
wpwrakaisa_: they may be a lot bigger than strictly necessary for the password manager11:31
aisa_bartbes: Yes, I believe I understand.  I was saying that libC does this, and the argument that doing it yourself is more secure is not true on the face of it.11:31
bartbesanyway, yeah, if someone hooks your kernel, then you're fucked anyway11:31
bartbesthe only way for it not to reveal your passwords then is to simply not hand them out11:32
aisa_wpwrak: this is true of any application that uses libC, so you have argued that nothing should use libC.11:32
derRichardquite all known linux worms/trojans/etc... are kernel based11:32
wpwrakderRichard: yes, you have to trust the kernel to do what it does right. and not entrust it things where it could do bad stuff. so, no unencrypted data every goes to the kernel.11:32
bartbesbut the question arises, if you got that far already, why not force the program to reveal the passwords?11:32
wpwrakaisa_: most applications don't need that level of security11:33
wpwrakbartbes: you'd of course need signed binaries and establish a path of trust right from the boot process. i'm still trying to find out how to do this :)11:33
bartbesidea, make it its own os11:34
wpwrakbartbes: (ultimately needs hardware support011:34
bartbesand then11:34
bartbesdon't make it bootable11:34
bartbesand don't make it store anything either11:34
wpwrakbartbes: in a way, it would be a separate os, yes11:34
bartbesthat way nothing could be stolen11:34
derRichardguys....please come back to the real world...11:34
aisa_I agree with derRichard.11:34
bartbeslol, I was joking11:34
bartbesI simply told him to make an application not doing anything11:35
wpwrakderRichard: libc isn't the biggest part of the work. the hard part are the gui and the crypto-protocols11:35
bartbesbut.. why?11:35
wpwrakbartbes: why what ?11:35
bartbeswhy would you want to go through this much trouble11:35
derRichardwpwrak: what are you talking about? why should i care about libc anyway?11:35
wpwrakbartbes: because a password manager should be very very safe11:36
aisa_bartbes: I would ask what he was going to do with his passwords while he was going through this much trouble ;-)11:36
aisa_see, I assume a password manager should very, very, exist.11:36
derRichardusing gpgme and qt you can create a nice and secure password maanger11:36
bartbeswpwrak: but the moment you enter it, it leaves the security of the application11:36
bartbesso all is for nothing11:36
wpwrakbartbes: the moment you enter one of the passwords in the manager into some other system, yes11:36
bartbeswell, I doubt you store the password for the manager in the manager11:37
bartbesso you'd have to enter it somewhere else anyway11:37
wpwrakbartbes: in a way, you do of course :)11:37
aisa_in a way?  in what way don't you?11:37
bartbesoh.. of course.. the one time I do want to write a blogpost there is maintenance..11:37
wpwrakaisa_: i mean, you store information encrypted wit that password, plus information that allows you to validate what you encrypted11:38
wpwrakaisa_: assuming infinite computing resources, you can retrieve the password with this :)11:38
bartbeswpwrak: also, what would take the passwords anyway?11:38
wpwrakbartbes: someone stealing the device ? someone taking it, installing a keylogger ?11:38
bartbesyou're scared of stuff so low-level I wonder if you can even get back up once you do get control there11:38
bartbesI guess the keylogger is the only thing you really have to worry about11:39
bartbeswhat else can you do with a stolen device11:39
wpwrakbartbes: you have to design security bottom-up. can't build a skyscraper on sand, sorry :)11:39
bartbesnot what I meant11:39
bartbesI meant, if you ever dig a tunnel under it, how would you ever get back to the top floor with just your shovel?11:39
wpwrakbartbes: you also have to consider usability. it's relatively easy to design a system that keeps its secrets very well but that's also inconvenient to use.11:40
wpwrakbartbes: convenience requires compromises. e.g., a way to "unlock" the device such that it stays unlocked for a while11:41
bartbesbut if you steal the device11:41
bartbesyou either have direct access due to a 'flaw' like that11:41
bartbesor you have no access because you don't know how to unlock it11:41
bartbes(a password presumably)11:41
bartbesso, how do you obtain that password other than a keylogger?11:42
wpwrakbartbes: a stoled but poorly designed device may have copied of decrypted information in memory11:42
bartbesoh right, I remember that one test where they froze the ram11:42
bartbesbut come on11:42
bartbesif you have liquid nitrogen you might as well torture the dude anyway11:43
wpwrakdon't forget that a password manager is as valuable as the sum of all the passwords inside11:43
bartbesdon't forget the weakest link will probably be the user11:43
wpwrakso you have to defend against the strongest attack that's likely11:43
bartbesexcept if you do happen to go for plaintext password storage11:43
derRichardi'm leaving now. this discussion makes no sense at all..11:43
wpwrakand yes, you better include various forms of extorsion in your plans :)11:44
bartbeswpwrak: as far as I can tell your biggest threat is a keylogger11:44
wpwrakbartbes: that one's indeed a big concern. hence the need for a trusted path with signed binaries.11:44
wpwrakhah, extorTion. now i'm starting with spanglish :)11:45
wpwrakbartbes: keyloggers could also be hardware-assisted. so there's also the question to what degree you could "harden" a ben against physical tampering.11:46
wpwrakbartbes: none of this matters much if all you want a little password safe for personal use that hardly anyone else uses, because then any attacker would have to research an attack specifically against your system, which is unlikely to happen11:47
wpwrak(any millionaires present on this channel should take the previous statement with a grain of salt, though :-)11:48
wpwrakderRichard: maybe you'll perceive a greater need for tight security if you consider that you'd also want to be able to store things like ATM PINs, e-banking access codes, etc., in your password safe11:49
derRichardwpwrak: have you ever worked with cryptography in the *real* world?11:55
wpwrakderRichard: a bit, yes. i also keep up on developments in the area, on both sides.11:58
wpwrakderRichard: the crypto block per se is usually the least of your worries. you just take one that hasn't been degraded much yet. e.g., AES. what's already much harder is to use it properly. and then create an environment that doesn't leak.11:59
derRichardyour arguments are ok. but total unrealistic. using ben as password storage makes sense when you use good crypto (eg. pgp using gpgme) and you make sure no one installs a keylogger11:59
wpwrakwhy are those things unrealistic ? imagine a ben sold as password safe. then it has to withstand quite a number of attacks. at least to the extent that you a) can still claim it is actually useful as a password safe, and b) that you can inform users about its limitations in a way that's understandable and useful to them.12:02
wpwrakalso, protecting against keyloggers isn't trivial. in the absence of tamper-proofing, you could only be sure if the ben never leaves your sight for more than a minute or so.12:05
derRichardare you using a passwort store on your pc?12:05
wpwrakno, too unsafe12:06
derRichardokay. know it becomes clear...12:06
wpwrakwhat i do, though, is keep less critical items in lightly obfuscated files. hiding in plain view works relatively well :)12:07
wpwrakone problem with password stores and the like is that they become an easily identifiable target for attack12:09
wpwrakanyway, feel free to use a system with weak security :) as long as there aren't many people using it and you're not a particularly interesting target, you'll probably be fine12:10
derRichardthis is bullshit. you have to learn that there is and will be never perfect security. deal with it12:12
wpwraki think that's rather obvious :)12:13
wpwraki also wonder why you're so upset. in what way do weak password saves benefit you ?12:13
derRichardwpwrak: i'm not upset. i'm busy. sorry12:19
wpwrakalright :)12:19
derRichardbusy with using my weak systems ;-)12:21
bartbeswpwrak: also, I see you keep referring to "Security by obscurity"12:22
bartbeswhich is...12:22
bartbesweak to say the least12:22
bartbes(yes, dinner has successfully filled my stomach)12:22
wpwrakbartbes: security by obscurity works reasonably well in some cases, e.g., the "needle in the haystack" case. as long as you assess the attacker's ability to search that haystack correctly.12:25
bartbeswell, you specifically worry about high-value targets12:25
wpwrakah, but for these i do't recommend the haystack12:26
bartbesin which cases security by obscurity is almost an improbably way of securely storing data12:26
wpwraki said i use the haystack approach for myself, because i'm not a high-value target12:26
bartbesbecause if we're talking about low-value targets you're overthinking anyway12:26
derRichardwpwrak: read this book ;) http://www.schneier.com/book-applied.html12:27
bartbescome on, if you're low value they probably won't even bother to try and hack your ben12:27
bartbesthey'll be like "wtf, pmp? can't use it? DUMP"12:27
bartbesthe only time people will hack is either because they want to hack, or you're high-value in which case security-by-obscurity is an invalid approach12:28
wpwrakderRichard: "secrets and lies" would be better. applied cryptography is about the algorithms themselves. (and yes, i've read both)12:28
wpwrakbartbes: wait ... what i'm after is a solution that can be generally applied. i don't know your bank account, but i want to be able to tell you that it's safe for you to store your e-banking password in that safe.12:29
bartbesI won't anyway12:29
bartbesbut you are overthinking12:30
wpwrakbartbes: so such a password safe would contain all sorts of passwords, belonging to all sorts of people. and it would also become an interesting target for examination12:30
bartbesyou are discussing ways to protect data that nobody will even try to touch unless they really want to hack you12:30
bartbesin which case they will succeed anyway12:30
wpwrakbartbes: just consider all the encrypting usb sticks that have been cracked. it's not because the people breaking them had valuable data they wanted to get at12:31
bartbesfor the lulz I guess12:31
wpwrakmostly security researchers. i think c't magazine cracked one too, although i'm not entirely sure if they did it on their own.12:32
rafakyak: yes, it has the ubi tools, but you need to install some package which i do not remember the name12:32
rafamaybe mfd tools or something like that12:32
bartbesalso, do note I am not a security expert by any means12:35
bartbesI am just annoying ;)12:35
rafakyak: mtd-utils has the tools IIRC12:43
qi-bot[commit] Alan Post: pyexpat is only used when updating, move import inside class. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a81644212:56
kyakrafa: nto working unfortunately13:00
kyakgotta go now, sorry13:01
rafakyak: what think is not working?13:01
rafaopkg update, opkg install?13:01
rafait works, i have tested before the release13:02
rafa(it works=ubi tools and mount of nand)13:02
wpwrakhmm, is  http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Updating_Ben_with_usbboot  still considered valid ? i got as far as to the last step. there, i tells me "not enough argument."19:06
wpwrakthe line is nprog 2048 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-root.ubi 0 0 -n19:07
wpwrakthe .ubi file exists and is from http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/Ben_NanoNote_2GB_NAND/2010-06-15/openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-root.ubi19:07
wpwrakfunny. renaming the file helps ;-)19:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: is valid !19:30
kristianpaulwpwrak: i used and edited to fix my copy and paste, i do reflash my Ben some often19:30
wpwrakseems that there's a bug in usbboot's command-line parser19:31
kristianpaulquit uboot19:31
wpwrakafter i worked around it, it flashed okay19:31
kristianpaulthen try again that tricky line19:31
kristianpaul"nprog 2048 openwrt-xburst-qi_lb60-root.ubi 0 0 -n19:31
kristianpauli think is that19:31
wpwrakheh :-) i just renamed the file. then it worked. probably some uninitialized variable19:31
kristianpaulrafa: there?19:32
wpwrakall the other nprog commands worked fine. also, after the .ubi failed, i repeated one of the others and that one still worked.19:32
kristianpaulwpwrak: btw have you tried the last usbboot?19:33
kristianpaulaka xburst-tools19:33
wpwrakhmm, i got it a few weeks ago. could be that something changed since then.19:33
kristianpaulwell i tried compile the last one some weeks ago and asked me about what seems mipsel toolchain..19:34
wpwrakcould be that this has been fixed. there has been a command-line parser change ~3 months ago.19:36
kristianpaulrafa: i want try wikipedia on jlime, there is a doc about how do it? i forgot how ... and i really need it now (this days) :D19:37
wpwrakah well, it worked, that's all that matters :) now ... making that system behave nicely in an automated signal strength test ...19:37
kristianpaulutomated signal strength test <- can you tell more about it?19:37
wpwrakit's very simple. i make atspi-txrx send a bunch of messages, with the usrp2 receiving. all this then goes to a program that obtains the 90% percentile (to remove any noise around the peak)19:38
wpwrakthe idea is to step the board a few times through all the channels and record how strong a signal the usrp sees.19:39
kristianpauland how are you "debuggin" the signal in the nanonote side?19:39
kristianpaulahh is from Ben to usrp..19:39
kristianpauli see19:39
wpwraki just send with atspi-txrx. i made a small extension ...19:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added more resistor choices to BOM processor. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6b5d23919:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusd/ERRATA: started errata section for 100912. Nothing major so far. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b390b2819:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atspi-txrx can now send repeatedly, cleans up on ^C, prints the power level. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c99ba2c19:39
wpwrak.. here it is :)19:39
wpwrakso it sends a message with defined tx power a few times. i just go through the usrp output and find the near-maximum. that should be at the carrier frequency.19:41
wpwraki don't do an fft to pick the peak from the right area of the spectrum. gnuradio is still too obscure for me to tackle such a thing. (i pipe things through a pipe, which causes losses. so i can't to an fft on the data on the other end of the pipe. but just looking for peaks should do as well. there aren't any supposed to exist outside the carrier +/- 1 MHz area anyway)19:42
wpwrakin case i get any weird results, i can always check the spectrum manually19:43
kristianpaulpics !19:45
kristianpauland data are wellcome just for curiosity19:45
kristianpauladn for those dont have a usrp2 at home ;)19:46
wpwrakit's mainly scripts :)19:46
kristianpauli tought you said "check the spectrum "19:46
kristianpaulwpwrak: okay what do you expect from the results?19:46
wpwrakhere are pictures (power spectral density): http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/atusd/tests/psd-2430.png19:48
wpwrakthis was the test setup: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/atusd/tethered.jpg19:48
wpwrak(check the spectrum) yup, with the usrp2 spectrum analyzer script. the one in the first picture19:48
kristianpaulyou can do 2.43Ghz peak, good :) ?19:50
kristianpaul-10 db too weak??19:50
wpwrakoh, i don't know what the absolute values mean, if anything. this is an uncalibrated antenna.19:51
wpwrakwhat's important is that the difference between the maximum of the +/-1 MHz region is at least 20 dB above the maximum in the region that's more than 3.5 MHz away from the center19:51
wpwrakthat's one of the requirements in IEEE 802.15.419:52
wpwrakhmm. also in the current image, gmenu2x still messes with the clocks20:21
kristianpaulbecause framebuffer issues?20:22
wpwrakdunno. why it does it. just something tells me that, whatever the reason, it's not a good excuse for messing with all the system's clocks ...20:23
wpwrakparticularly if the resulting clock isn't a multiple of 16 :-(20:24
kristianpaullets move to ncurses and problem solved :)20:24
wpwrakyeah :)20:25
kristianpaulyou should try same stuff with Jlime just for curiosity and if you have time for20:25
wpwraki'll just ask rafa when he's back :)20:25
kristianpaulhe had a usrp2 too??20:26
wpwraknaw :) but he can tell me if they're doing something nasty with the clocks :)20:26
kristianpaulhahah good point !20:26
kristianpaulyou think really linux could boot in 3 seconds and behave better in the nanonote?20:27
kristianpauljust wonder why cellphones run real time OS and not monilitc kernels..20:27
kristianpaulhmm may be android people is doing something to achieve whaty i said i terms of speed and performance20:28
wpwrakhmm ? i think the ben boots already quite quickly20:28
kristianpaul10 seconds..20:29
kristianpaulwell yes :)20:29
kristianpauli jsut noticed this slow as more i use it20:29
kristianpaulignore my complains :)20:29
kristianpaulsure is it quick compared to other stuff like fre..20:30
wpwrakhmm, the data that crawls out of my measurements looks very weird. i'm quite curious if i get the same sort of results also on the second run.20:32
wpwraknaw. just very noise. seems that my filter doesn't perform too well.20:36
wpwrakhmm. can't say i like the way those bursts look. they're drooping. let's see if the other boards do that too ...20:46
wpwrakah, much nicer. seems that this board has a bug. well, maybe. the one with "nice" signals is almost 50% stronger than the one with ugly signals. grmbl.20:50
wpwrakerr, the other way around20:51
wpwrakironically, the two are supposed to be very similar. this will be fun ...20:52
kristianpaulhardware is fun, isnt? :)20:53
methrilhi all20:53
kristianpaulhey methril20:53
wpwrakyeah, you never know what surprise will come next :)20:53
methrilhardware is "hard"20:53
methrilhow are you doing?20:54
kristianpaulgood dealing with verilog to get a signal generation tool20:54
kristianpauli'm planning do what wpwrak but froma fpga board to the ben20:55
kristianpaulso more simple signals less pain o hope20:55
kristianpaulmethril: what about you?20:55
methrilkristianpaul, so bussy with paid job, an other paid project coming soon20:56
methrili thought i was going to have some time to hack a little bit nanos or Milkymist,20:57
methrilbut i need to sleep less to get time to hack something :)20:57
methrilso it's not bad20:57
methrili'm doing some FOSS development at work20:57
methrila port of a BDM dongle20:57
methrilsimilar to a JTAG, but for Motorolla/Freescale uC20:58
methrilit's another OpenHardware tool (USBDM) for that kind of architectures20:58
kristianpaulhi qwebirc8919421:26
qwebirc89194gota set my nick21:26
qwebirc89194hold on21:26
elricsfatethere we go21:27
elricsfatekristianpaul: hi paul21:27
elricsfatekristianpaul: just got my nanonote in the male. updating it now21:27
kristianpaulGood news  !21:28
elricsfatekristianpaul: absolutely21:29
kristianpaulxiangfu: thre is fuse support in openwrt xburst?21:32
kristianpauli was about try sshfs with my Ben then i got peer lost conection not sure if is because dropbear instea of openssh21:33
xiangfukristianpaul: here is the search result './scripts/feeds search fues':21:33
xiangfuconfuse                  libConfuse is a configuration file parser library21:33
xiangfucurlftpfs                CurlFtpFS21:33
xiangfuowfs                     OWFS - fuse file system21:33
xiangfupsmisc                   proc utilities21:33
xiangfusshfs                    SSHFS21:33
xiangfuI am not sure which one can make fuse work in NanoNote.21:34
kristianpaulxiangfu: sshfs !!21:34
kristianpaulthats one !!21:34
kristianpaulIs awesome !21:34
kristianpaulxiangfu: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Sshfs21:35
kristianpaulwel i think it is21:35
kristianpaulit just works21:35
elricsfateany way to update everything through usb on windows???21:38
elricsfatecome to think of it. I can get into my gentoo install on this computer if thats a must21:39
kristianpaulelricsfate: you can update usign a  sd card toom if remenber well21:40
elricsfateyeh I saw that. It would just be more useful to do it through usb. Well time to hunt up my sd card haha21:40
xiangfukristianpaul: what is the relationship between fuse and sshfs ?21:47
kristianpaulxiangfu: thre is not21:47
kristianpaulxiangfu: i think i should install openssh due dropbear dont support sshfs21:48
xiangfukristianpaul: yes.21:48
kristianpaulxiangfu: at least you have an esier idea about how to pass data to the nanonote (not using scp or command line tools)21:49
xiangfukristianpaul: yes.21:50
kristianpaulwich one?? :D21:50
xiangfukristianpaul: I remember the 'sshfs' works fine before.21:52
kristianpaulwith dropbear?21:52
xiangfukristianpaul: only not work after we update the uClibc 0.9.3221:52
xiangfukristianpaul:  "pass data to the nanonote (not using scp or command line tools)"  -- yes.  :)21:53
xiangfukristianpaul: I think so. wait me some minutes. I will test the old image .21:54
kristianpaulI also was thinking installa light ftp server in ben and use a firefox addon to send data to the nano21:58
kristianpaulanyway back to scp days22:06
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add gforth to config.full_system http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d4cb34a22:07
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: Revert "add gforth to config.full_system" http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/c0dd85e22:07
aisa_xiangfu: Are you online now?22:08
TextmodeGlulxe/glkterm wasw surprisingly easy to compile, I wonder how hard it would be to get fully-fledged Gargoyle built?22:08
Textmode(and does anyone here care?)22:09
aisa_what is gargoyle?22:09
Textmodeaisa_: gargoyle is a package of various IF engines, with a common front and backend22:10
xiangfuaisa_: yes22:10
aisa_oh, fun!22:10
Textmode(so you can basically run any IF file is supports with "gargoyle somefile.blorb", and they all look and act the same.22:10
aisa_xiangu: I just saw the commit come across reverting gforth.22:11
aisa_I installed emacs on my local build system, I was going to test to see if adding that package helped.22:11
aisa_I'm not sure if I'll see another problem.22:11
aisa_But I really wanted to ask about this e-mail:22:11
aisa_packages installing files in /var/...22:12
aisa_I'm certainly willing to just solve this problem the best way I can see,22:12
aisa_but if you have some comment I'd like to hear it first.22:12
aisa_xiangfu: I see your reply now on gforth, and I see that David asked for it too.  Awesome.22:13
xiangfuaisa_: I saw your email about /var/...  (sorry, will back in 10 minutes)22:17
xiangfuaisa_: the /lib/preinit/10_essential_fs:19. this file is for mount /tmp folder. but I think modify this file is not good idea.22:24
aisa_I agree.22:24
xiangfuaisa_: is that file must in /var/lib/  ?? how aobut /usr/share/makfa/...22:24
aisa_In a normal unix system, one would not put it in /usr/share/makfa,22:25
aisa_because the makfa program itself modifies the file,22:25
aisa_and /usr/share is supposed to be read-only.22:25
Action: Textmode is apparently invisible.22:25
aisa_In this case, it is my best idea for a solution.22:25
aisa_so it is what I am going to use unless we have a better idea.22:25
aisa_in a perfect world,22:26
aisa_I would like some kind of /var overlay,22:26
aisa_such that the contents are copied from the /overlay/var to /var at boot.22:26
aisa_and I can place "permanent" /var files in the overlap.22:27
aisa_I'm not really ready to do that kind of architecture change yet.22:27
aisa_but I think I will make a note for this kind of work in the future.22:27
xiangfuaisa_: how about ~/.makfa/22:28
aisa_It turns out this is essentially how the program used to behave.22:28
aisa_I have some notion that I will create a non-root user to work on the machine,22:28
aisa_so I was not thinking of this as an option.22:29
xiangfuaisa_: ok. understand.22:29
aisa_but currently, as there is the root user, I can see that it works.22:29
aisa_I like the /usr/share/makfa option better than this, because of this reason.22:29
aisa_Do you have a preference?22:29
xiangfuaisa_: let me search "openwrt /var/ /temp issue" first. :)22:30
Action: kristianpaul ohh ./feeds/packages/fftw322:32
xiangfuaisa_: it's hard code to package/base-files/Makefile:37822:35
xiangfuaisa_: so I would also like the '/usr/share/makfa'.  if we need more /var/... in future. we can think about patch the upstream :)22:37
aisa_agreed.  I'll add the upstream /var/... patches to my backlog, but put them after getting a test environment running for the nanonote.22:38
aisa_and in the mean time, I'll update the makfa package to use /usr/share/makfa.22:38
aisa_Thank you!22:38
xiangfuaisa_: you are welcome :)22:43
xiangfukristianpaul: hi. I test sshfs in old openwrt release. it not working. sorry I remember wrong.22:43
kristianpaulxiangfu: no problem22:47
kristianpaulxiangfu: i wonder if linux can emulate by USB a massive storage device??22:49
kristianpaulthat will be awesome22:49
xiangfukristianpaul: there is one option in kernel menuconfig :  File-backed Storage Gadget22:53
xiangfukristianpaul: there are many . I just found there is one option: "CDC Composite Device (Ethernet and ACM)"22:53
kristianpaulxiangfu: wow great22:54
kristianpaulFile-backed Storage ... implements the USB Mass Storage class (as CB, CBI, or BBB), appearing to the host as a SCSI disk drive. This uses a file or block device as a backing store for the drive, like the "loop" driver. (Read about how to set up the backing store.) The 2.6 version also lets you change the backing file associated with a given LUN22:57
kristianpaulFor example, you might specify the block device for an MMC card when that card is inserted (maybe using a hotplug script, or a GUI). Note that for MS-Windows interoperability, your backing store needs to be formatted with a DOS partition label. Data partitions can then be formatted with VFAT (for the widest interoperability) or some other filesystem (such as ext3 or reiserfs, for use with Linux22:57
kristianpaulgn8 now really22:58
Action: kristianpaul zzZ22:58
qi-bot[commit] Alan Post: move makfa.dump from /var/lib/makfa to /usr/share/makfa http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/b3f79e423:05
qi-bot[commit] Alan Post: makfa: only import ElementTree if we're going to use it. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4082f6723:05
qi-bot[commit] Alan Post: makfa: only import ElementTree if we're going to use it. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/2f685c023:05
--- Wed Sep 15 201000:00

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