#qi-hardware IRC log for Friday, 2010-09-10

osokuroGood evening, folks.00:04
qi-bot[commit] kyak: sdcv depends on glib2 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/a0edda202:06
wolfspraulkyak: thanks for helping with the images!02:09
wolfspraulif an account on our new buildhost machine does any good to you, let me know and you have one right away...02:09
kyakwolfspraul: it's my pleasure! ok, if i need the account, i'll let you know, thanks02:36
wolfspraulkyak: don't hesitate to update the config.full_system file in openwrt-xburst either02:42
wolfspraulif you see a package that is useful on the Ben NanoNote but not included in the image, whether it's a library, console app, GUI app, etc. just enable it and commit the update into config.full_system02:42
wolfspraulI also still see things in there that don't make much sense, like ntfs utilities. I hardly can see anyone connecting an NTFS formatted microSD to the Ben...02:43
wolfspraulso I will also start enabling/disabling things in there. since it's a whole OS, the more eyes the better.02:43
bartbesyeah, me neither...02:44
kyakwolfspraul: i'm doing right now quite opposite.. i started from scratch, i.e. default config wit hno packages and now adding one by one necessary (from my opinion) packages02:44
kyakthere is a lot of useless things in config.full_system02:44
kyakbut RIGHT now i'm trying to port mupdf. I've seen it in Jlime, and it's quite good02:46
kyakit has two dependencies that are not in openwrt yet, openjpeg and jbig2dec02:47
kyakso not so straight forward02:48
bartbeswell it all depends on the deps02:48
bartbesI remember physfs02:49
bartbesapart from it being the first cmake project (that I know of) it was easy02:49
bartbes(well of course it has been done before, but then someone must've shot down a plane by throwing a rock at it as well)02:49
wolfspraulkyak: excellent!02:51
wolfspraulyes of course, let's kick out useless stuff from config.full_system02:51
wolfspraultotally with you02:51
wolfspraulI work on another config right now, config.debug02:52
wolfspraulI want it to be a minimal system, just bootable but with most system libraries installed. then debug options should be enabled.02:52
wolfspraulso if we run into a problem, it should be easy to add another package, rebuild config.debug, and be in a good position to fix the bug fast02:52
bartbeshave the sdl problems been fixed btw?02:53
wolfspraulkyak: how did you get to your 'default config' that you started from?02:54
wolfspraulbartbes: no, not fixed. And I need an image to reflash 1000 nanos next week...02:54
wolfspraulworst case I have to use the old 06-15 image, with heavy flickering and all...02:54
wolfspraulbut still some time, so we see02:55
kyakwolfspraul: make distclean, then make menuconfig. then select our target, and after make and reflash your Ben you will end up with 3Mb Linux distribution with busybox and base-files02:57
bartbesthen add lua02:59
bartbessdl02:59
bartbesphysfs02:59
bartbesfreetype02:59
bartbesand nlove02:59
bartbesand you have a love machine02:59
bartbes>:)02:59
kyakbartbes: actually, only add "nlove", all other must be selected automatically :)03:00
bartbestrue03:00
kyakactually, by building from scratch i've detected some missing depenedcies03:00
bartbesthough..03:00
bartbesI might have forgotten freetype..03:00
bartbesnow that I think of it03:00
wolfspraulkyak: when you select a package in make menuconfig, OpenWrt will automatically select the dependencies?03:06
bartbesactually..03:07
bartbeswut03:07
bartbesI'll need to check this out this afternoon03:07
kyakwolfspraul: yes03:07
bartbeswolfspraul: if they are defined properly in the makefile03:07
bartbesyes03:07
wolfspraulsometimes I am wondering whether it's a good idea to commit entire config files, maybe it's better to write a little script that can process a list of apps, and will manually edit the config file with sed or so, from 'is not set' to '=y'03:07
wolfspraulah OK, then an external script is not a good idea03:07
kyakwolfspraul: not a good idea, yes.. should keep consistency via make menuconfig03:08
wolfspraulalthough OpenWrt would probably 'pick up' the dependencies when running make?03:09
wolfspraulor are they enforced while make menuconfig is running?03:09
wolfspraulthey may have 'make oldconfig' and others things, no?03:09
kyakwhen you run make, it doesn't alter you .config, so dependencies are not "picked up"03:14
kyakwhen you run menuconfig, OpenWrt is cross-checking for dependencies and when you have the menu, these dependencies are already there03:15
wolfspraulhow about 'make oldconfig'03:17
kyakexample, if you added a new dependency for some package, then run make menuconfig and exited with saving (actually changing nothing manually in that menuconfig), you will see your added dependepcies in .config03:17
wolfsprauldo they have some way to automatically cross-check dependencies?03:17
kyaknot sure about oldconfig, never used it03:17
kyakstupid developers. .naming their tarball as openjpeg_v1.2.tar.gz04:17
kyakand inside is trunk/ dir04:17
kyakof course, not using autotools04:18
kyakgod, they have things like install -m 644 -o root -g root in their Makefile04:23
Action: kyak angry04:24
viricurgh. ubifs decided to do several torture tests to a PEB04:41
viricit looks like in a loop04:41
virictwo minutes, running a torture test on the same block every two seconds04:43
viricand still did not stop04:43
viricShould I stop the ben?04:43
viric4 minutes04:44
wolfspraulviric: is the whole device stuck? how do you know ubifs is doing something?04:57
viricwolfspraul: no04:57
viricwolfspraul: I could login, run programs...04:57
viricwolfspraul: they run slow though04:57
viricwolfspraul: I could run 'halt', and boot again. Then the problem disappeared.04:57
wolfspraulok04:58
viricBut ubifs was in the loop for 6 minutes, until halt switched all off04:58
wolfspraulmaybe a bug in ubifs...04:58
viricbad.04:58
virichttp://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.drivers.mtd/2950304:58
wolfspraulit's a long story. nand is difficult and ubifs is the best shot free software has to offer.04:58
virichere I saw a comment about a torture test getting into loop04:58
wolfspraul:-)04:59
wolfsprauldon't worry04:59
viricno?04:59
wolfspraulno.04:59
wolfspraulwe know too little facts about nand and the exact ubifs behavior to be worried04:59
wolfspraulthe best we can do is to run very recent Linux kernels, which more or less we are doing.05:00
wolfspraulanother cool thing would be if the ubifs developesr would use NanoNotes for development :-)05:00
wolfspraulscary link indeed05:02
wolfspraulif someone can still say in 2010 with a straight face that they only support SLC, and doesn't seem to be worried about that the slightest little bit05:02
wolfspraulit's as if the storage guys would happily say that they only support scsi, never heard or want to be bothered about ata or any of that sata stuff. overhyped, ya know? :-)05:04
kyaktrying to redefine TAR command, is not so obvious05:12
wpwrakwolfspraul, kyak: if you want script-driven configuration, switching on what you like and then running "make oldconfig" should indeed work. after all, one of its purposes is to take an old .config and process it in the context of a new set of Kconfig files.06:37
wpwrak(i've used this sort of approach on some occasions)06:41
kristianpaula06:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: maybe all the people who understand NAND are moving away from bare NAND ? (-:C06:44
kristianpaulhttp://paste.debian.net/89085/06:45
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ^ why i cant remove stuff from tmp?..06:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: (morning), moving to ... ?06:46
wpwrakkristianpaul: something nicely packaged. uSD, for example :)06:48
kristianpaul:)06:48
kristianpaulbut speed?06:49
kristianpaulcause NAND memory are parallel isnt?06:49
wpwrakkristianpaul: on the Ben, uSD is 4 bits, NAND is 8 bits, DRAM is 16 bits06:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: so there's less of a difference than you may expect06:50
wpwrakand i've heard that uSD is actually faster than NAND on the Ben (haven't measured it myself, though)06:51
kristianpaulwell Jlime works like a charm most of the time06:52
kristianpaulbut is not a serios test06:52
kristianpaulindeed i need measure that, i wonder if i can save around 2Mb raw data per second and not hurt the whole system I/O06:52
zearkristianpaul, everything rafa works like a charm ;)07:30
zear*rafa makes07:30
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you can ssh into the machine as root08:18
wolfspraulhave you fixed your /tmp and sudo problem? feel free to install stuff as you need08:19
wolfspraulif you make bigger config changes shoot me a note so I can update the documentation, or update it yourself08:19
kyakhm08:34
kyakhas anyone ever overriden the /bin/gtar as unpacking application in openwrt toolchain?08:35
kyaki set TAR:=/bin/gtar (with whateve my parameters) in Makefile, but it doesn't work08:35
wolfspraulkyak: I tried to start with no .config and then just setting the target as you suggested. worked great, the .ubi file is 9.5mb though, not 3.5mb (maybe you meant .tar.gz size, or another filesystem type?)08:35
wolfspraulif it works (trying now), I will document what to enable on the wiki page08:36
kyakwolfspraul: yes, ubi file is bigger, i meant the output of df -h on your Ben :)08:36
wolfspraulok08:36
wolfspraulif make oldconfig works well, maybe we can switch to much shorter, more meaningful, and more maintainable config files as starting points08:36
wolfsprauland then the first step will always be 'make oldconfig' to mix it with whatever openwrt defaults08:37
wolfspraulneed to try though...08:37
kyakyes, good intention08:37
kyakif it works08:37
kyakthen we just define a list of "our" apps: 1) to be included in image 2) to be built as "modules"08:38
kyakoverride TAR:=/bin/gtars08:44
kyakmust be like this :)08:44
wolfspraulyes but first we need a system of config files that is cleaner. right now the config file is 100kb or more, and diffs are meaningless (too big) because it seems openwrt always moves options around.08:46
kyakyes, you are right08:48
wolfspraulmy hopes for the 'cleaner' part rest on 'make oldconfig' right now :-)08:49
kyakit's PKG_UNPACK, actually..08:58
kyakdamn those openjpeg people08:58
wolfspraulxiangfu: when I boot from that minimal image, it gets stuck at 'kernel panic ... unable to mount rootfs'09:16
wolfspraul(sorry I mean kyak ...)09:17
wolfspraulmaybe the kernel needs ubifs support09:17
kyakwolfspraul: mmm, here's my "zero" config: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/.config09:20
kyakoh no09:20
kyakhttp://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/kyak/tmp/.config_stage009:20
kyakthis one09:20
kyaki changed some busybox options and selected uClibc-0.9.30.109:21
kyakbasically that's all09:21
wolfspraulah uclibc, good point09:21
wolfspraulas always, impossible to diff these config monsters...09:30
wolfspraul:-)09:30
aisaI'm getting ready to create a couple packages for the Ben NanoNote.10:04
aisaIn each case, the software is in a svn/git repository, and there is not formal release.10:05
aisaMy plan is to checkout and package the software on my website, and configure the build system to retrieve the source code this way.10:05
aisaIs there a better way to do this when the software is only available in a revision control system?10:05
xiangfuaisa: openwrt will do that for you. you don't need to do that.10:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: so, when do you plan to dance with the schematics differences beast ?10:06
aisaxiangfu: can you give me the name of a package that does this so I can use it as an example?10:06
xiangfuaisa: finding ...10:07
xiangfuaisa: this one is git:  http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/fn-handle/Makefile10:07
aisaxiangfu: Thank you very much!10:07
xiangfuaisa: this one is svn: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-packages/source/tree/master/poke/Makefile10:08
xiangfuaisa: every time you update the svn revision or git commit. you need update the "PKG_RELEASE" in Makefile.10:09
aisaLooking at the Makefiles, I see this mechanism.10:11
wolfspraulaisa: we get new packages for the Ben? wohoooo!10:28
wolfspraulgreat!10:28
aisamy NanoNote crossed the Pacific last night.  Huzzah.10:29
wolfspraulwpwrak: I'm in a bit of stress right now because 1000 Nanos wait for me to be reflashed, but I don't even have a usable image.10:29
aisawolfspraul: thank you!  I'm starting with a couple easy ones.  My basic roadmap is here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/User:Alanpost/Backlog10:29
aisawolfspraul: can you give me details about the problem with the current testing image?10:30
aisaSpecifically: When did it become a problem, and what is happening?10:30
wolfspraulaisa: xiangfu can probably describe it better10:31
wolfspraulin general the plan says every release image should be better than the one before10:31
aisaxiangfu: I have one more question for you.  ^_^10:31
wolfspraulbut since 2010-06-15, we haven't really managed to do that, we currently have regressions that are so severe that we think they overshadow the progress that was also made10:32
wolfspraullike for example SDL apps don't work, or Qt apps don't work, or both10:32
aisaI would assume that the compiler, an essential library, or the kernel was updated after that point?10:32
wolfspraulthe latest testing image is 2010-08-26 by Mirko and then 2010-09-06 by Xiangfu, but both have serious bugs10:33
wolfspraulnow it also hurts us that the release process is not fully documented and nailed down, neither is there a definitive app list or test plan :-)10:33
aisaI made some corrections and additionals to the build instructions this morning,10:33
wolfspraulpretty hard to come out with incrementally better images, without regressions, in that environment...10:33
aisaand I noticed in doing so that making a release was scattered across several wiki pages, not directly linked to each other.10:34
aisaI imagine I'll continue to clean up as I go.10:34
wolfspraulbtw, in terms of disk space, a minimal config needed about 3GB for me, the config.full_system one with debug symbols turned on was already 31 GB10:34
wolfspraulfantastic. you will become our release hero.10:34
aisaI'm using 5.0GB of disk, having checked out openwrt-xburst and openwrt-trunk, plus compiling a build image.10:35
aisaHow do you turn on debug symbols, is it an option in .config?10:35
aisaAs I've played with the build I regret not ordering two NanoNotes right away.10:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: (stress) yeah, i've seen that :) just want to know what your plans are. it doesn't run away ;-)10:36
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: make copy zImage automatic, update config.xbboot.README http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/dc6bf6b10:36
aisaOT: can someone remind me how to scroll up and down in irssi?  (*sheepish*)10:37
wolfspraulaisa: just pg-up, pg-down works for me10:38
wolfspraulaisa: I gladly create an account for you on our buildhost10:39
xiangfuaisa: what is the question?10:39
wolfspraulthere's a couple hundred gig of HDD space and a decent, though single-core, Athlon64 compiling away...10:39
aisaxiangfu: I would like more details on the instability in the current image.10:39
aisaEnough to be able to do some debugging:10:39
aisaWhat do you do to create a problem?  What do you see?  What did you expect to see instead?10:40
aisawolfspraul: I would welcome a better machine to do builds on, I kept my laptop pegged all day yesterday and I had other work to do...10:40
aisa(I do data analysis, so my CPU can be precious at times.)10:40
wolfsprauldo you have a url to your public key, or can you email it to me? what account name do you want?10:41
aisaMay I have the account name 'a'?  That is what I use on my computers.10:41
aisaI will upload my public key and post, one moment.10:41
wolfspraulbtw, for the images, one thing to keep in mind is that we are currently trying to follow the upstream 'Backfire' release, although it seems some packages have already been upticked beyond Backfire10:41
aisaoh good, that answered one of my questions.  Who is working with openwrt to push patches upstream?10:42
wolfspraulif we are brave enough, and feel we are wasting our time, we can leave the Backfire path in our 'xburst' branch and track upstream trunk10:42
wolfspraulaisa: several people do, mostly mirko (on vacation this month), and larsc (though mostly for the kernel I think)10:43
xiangfuaisa: we have update uClibc to 0.9.32. then some program just hang. even "mkfs.ext2 --help". seems all SDL program not work,10:43
wolfspraulxiangfu: we have two branches in openwrt-xburst, 'master' and 'xburst'10:43
xiangfuaisa: <xiangfu> here is the "strace mkfs.ext2 --help" for 0.9.30:10:43
xiangfu<xiangfu> http://code.bulix.org/2nndcc-7747510:43
xiangfu<xiangfu> here is the "strace mkfs.ext2 --help" for 0.9.32:10:43
xiangfu<xiangfu> http://code.bulix.org/iobrqc-7747610:43
wolfspraulwhich one is 'master' tracking, and which one is 'xburst' tracking? can we document somewhere how we are tracking?10:44
aisaxiangfu: I'm happy to see it is a uClibc problem.  I'm going to be much better at debugging that than if it was a kernel upgrade.  I'm fairly good at how the C library interfaces with the kernel and applications.10:45
xiangfuhmm. 'master' is a clone of svn://svn.openwrt.org/openwrt/trunk/10:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: 'xburst' follow the svn://svn.openwrt.org/openwrt/branches/backfire10:46
kristianpaulwolfspraul: okay root, well ok..10:46
aisawolfspraul: here is my rsa public key:10:48
aisahttp://c0redump.org/id_rsa.pub10:48
Action: kristianpaul installing sudo10:48
wolfspraulxiangfu: what do (or others) think about renaming the 'master' branch to 'openwrt_trunk', and 'xburst' to 'openwrt_backfire'?10:48
wolfspraulor just trunk and backfire?10:49
wolfspraulmaybe with openwrt_ it's more clear10:49
aisaI think openwrt_ makes in clearer.10:49
wolfspraulxiangfu: are those two upstream paths documented somewhere? and what are the steps to sync down?10:49
aisarenaming master to trunk is a bit odd, as that is the same thing but different revision control systems,10:49
aisabut by prepending openwrt_ you indicate what branches are really m eant.10:50
aisawolfspraul: I'm updating the wiki now to include the two branches and what they point to.10:50
xiangfuwolfspraul: the 'master' branch sync be me. manually sync sometimes.10:51
xiangfuwolfspraul: 'xburst' lars or Mirko will merge the 'backfire' to 'xburst' manually also I think.10:52
wolfspraulcan you describe the manual steps somewhere?10:52
xiangfuok.10:52
wolfspraulxiangfu: how about renaming those two branches to openwrt_trunk and openwrt_backfire?10:53
xiangfuaisa: which wiki page you updating? maybe I write the step to the same page :)10:53
kristianpaulxiangfu: can i tell openwrt makefile use a .foo folder for tmp stuff instead the system tmp?10:53
wolfspraulaisa: try ssh a@fidelio.qi-hardware.com - that's our buildhost10:53
kristianpaula? :)10:53
aisaxiangfu: wiki page [[Building Software Image]]10:54
wolfspraulyes that's the account name he asked for, and actually I like it, less typing even when setting up the account :-)10:54
kristianpaulindeed10:54
kristianpauli like too10:54
wolfspraul12 times easier than yours!10:54
kristianpaulheehhe10:54
wolfspraulyou want k?10:54
aisakristianpaul: I had a boss at my first job whose unix name was 'n'.  I was quite inspired by that!10:54
kristianpaulwolfspraul: well no bother, i like my nick :)10:54
aisawolfspraul: I am able to log into this system using my rsa key.10:55
aisaWill it be ok to document using the system on the wiki?10:55
wolfspraulshould work, yes. please try.10:55
wolfsprauldon't understand [document using the system on the wiki?]10:56
xiangfuwolfspraul: hmm... I don't think we need add prefix 'openwrt_', but I am thinking change master --> upstream, xburst --> master10:56
aisawolfspraul: I was thinking something along the lines of:10:56
kristianpaulwolfspraul: xiangfu the /tmp problem i had is because a build was a as root i think, then some folder in tmp are root owned, then my build try same file, then.. O_o10:57
aisanightly builds, location of testing workspaces, filesystem layout for the project.10:57
wolfspraulkristianpaul: a build was run as root on the buildhost?10:57
xiangfukristianpaul: I found this: rules.mk:17:TMP_DIR:=$(TOPDIR)/tmp10:58
wolfspraulxiangfu: I think those names are even more confusing. we should clearly express the upstream relation in the branch name, imho10:59
wolfspraulopenwrt_trunk and openwrt_backfire10:59
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes10:59
kristianpaulxiangfu: great !11:00
xiangfuwolfspraul: hmm.. it's git tradition. "master" branch is always the branch you current working on.11:00
kristianpaulwolfspraul: it seems11:00
kristianpaulor11:00
kristianpaulwith a user wich is not me11:00
kristianpaulthat could make sense too11:00
kristianpaulany way xiangu pointed the solution11:01
aisawiki has information on trunk and backfire branches:11:01
aisahttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image#Downloading_sources11:01
kristianpaulxiangfu: i guess i change that TOPDIR for HOME or something more local?11:01
kristianpaulso we can build at same time and no worries about use same temp directories11:02
xiangfukristianpaul: git diff :)11:02
kristianpaulxiangfu: :)11:03
kristianpauli learn a new git command today :D11:03
wolfspraulso running multiple openwrt builds in parallel on the buildhost is not safe right now?11:03
kristianpaulseems not if my theory is correct11:04
wolfspraulxiangfu: yes I know [master]. but this is a public server, shared by multiple people. its only purpose is to track upstream. so I cannot decide which master 'we currently work on', and it's better to have no master at all.11:04
kristianpaulas the /tmp is common for the builds11:04
wolfspraulthat's actually precisely why I would not have a master, to make that clear. different people will use different starting points, or contribute to different branches.11:04
xiangfuwolfspraul: oopenwrt_trunk is ok for me . but openwrt_backfire will make people think it's another backfire branch. not ours11:05
aisaopenwrt_backfire_ben?11:06
lekernelhttp://free-electrons.com/fr/blog/videos-rmll-2010/ (mostly in French)11:07
aisaDo I need to wait for a commit before trying to compile an image on the buildhost?  To avoid polluting /tmp?11:08
wolfspraulwell we need to find out whether there is a /tmp collision problem11:08
wolfspraulis there or is there not? how can we fix it?11:08
lekerneldamn I speak super fast11:08
wolfspraulI even ran multiple builds in parallel in my user account, ignorant of any /tmp issues :-)11:09
aisaThis is what is causing the current build image to be unstable :-p11:09
CongoZombiehey11:13
CongoZombiewhere do you guys submit the .config for openwrt-xburst?11:13
aisaco'o la'oi CongoZombie11:13
CongoZombieI see it is in the .gitignore11:14
aisaCongoZombie: data/qi_lb60/conf/config.full_system11:14
xiangfuopenwrt-xburst/data/qi_lb60/conf/11:14
CongoZombiesweet, thanks11:14
kristianpaulwolfspraul: rules.mk:17:TMP_DIR:=$(TOPDIR)/tmp11:14
aisas/co'o/coi/, sorry to be rude :-)11:14
CongoZombieI'm trying to configure for the Dingoo, but I've been having trouble getting it to pull our kernel from git11:14
CongoZombiedon't worry, I'm from the UK ;)11:15
aisabristianpaul: doesn't that mean tmp is in the work area?11:15
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes that's a line in rules.mk, but what does it mean?11:16
kristianpaullet me see11:16
aisaright, I guess the best way to answer this question is to add debug code and run make :-p11:16
kristianpaulwait i can do that i did11:17
wolfspraulkristianpaul: xiangfu if I look in /tmp on the buildhost now, I do see some files owned by my user account. it looks very wrong.11:20
wolfspraulthey seem to be coming from the 'frotz' package11:20
wolfspraulso maybe it's just a problem with some setting in the frotz package?11:20
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes thats why i pointed11:20
kristianpaulhmm11:20
kristianpaulaisa: http://paste.debian.net/89129/11:20
wolfspraulso maybe there is something in the frotz Makefile that is just wrong11:21
kristianpaulbut i wonder what happen if two build remove a file from the other at the same time..11:21
kristianpaulcause this issue was founded whe just one build running11:21
wolfsprauleither filenames in /tmp must be totally safe in terms of multiple processes running, or they shouldn't be there11:22
kristianpaulahh yes11:22
wolfspraulthis seems to be only a problem in the frotz Makefile, I am sure the overall OpenWrt system handles this well11:22
kristianpaulthe tmo should be in the openwrt-xburst11:22
kristianpaulyes11:22
kristianpaulyou are right wolfspraul11:22
wolfspraulthere is a $(1) in frotz/Makefile, looks strange11:23
wolfspraulwell, others have that too...11:24
wolfsprauldoes anybody see what's wrong with the frotz Makefile, if anything?11:24
kristianpaulah frotz is a qipackage11:24
xiangfuwolfspraul: in frotz makefile line 18:  PREFIX = /tmp11:27
xiangfuopenwrt-xburst/build_dir/target-mipsel_uClibc-0.9.32/frotz-2.43/Makefile11:27
wolfsprauloh, it's in the frotz sources?11:28
wolfspraulso we need to patch it?11:28
mthsetting the prefix to a host directory is usually not a good idea anyway11:33
mthit's better to use DESTDIR11:33
mthotherwise any hardcoded paths in the binary will point to build dirs instead of install dirs11:33
xiangfumth: thanks. now I am re-compile the frotz now for test.11:35
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes. we need patch it.11:36
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [frotz] remove use sytem /tmp dir http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/502d2f011:41
kyakxiangfu: hi, do you know perhaps why the empty dir bin/xburst/uboot-xburst-qi_lb60 is created after build?11:46
xiangfukyak: not look into. let me check the u-boot package :)11:51
xiangfunow11:51
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I deleted the 3 dirs in /tmp that were created by my account.11:51
kristianpaulok11:52
kristianpaulfor now i can disable frotz from my build11:53
kristianpauli dont think i need it11:53
xiangfuwolfspraul: rename done. master --> openwrt_trunk and xburst --> openwrt_backfire : http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/tree/openwrt_backfire/11:55
wolfsprauloh11:56
wolfspraulnice! :-)11:56
wolfspraullet's see when/where the complaints will be coming...11:56
aisaI think each person is going to have to modify their .git/config file to update the branch names.11:57
aisaI believe it is the merge= line in each [branch] section.11:59
kyakhm.. what should I do? (not a power user of git)12:01
aisaopen .git/config12:01
aisathere are two lines that say merge = in them.12:01
aisaone says refs/heads/master, the other says refs/heads/xburst12:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul: /wi 3612:01
aisachange them to refs/heads/openwrt_trunk and refs/heads/openwrt_backfire, respectively.12:02
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you need to run scripts/feeds update -a && scripts/feeds install -a, then the frotz problem should be fixed12:02
kyakaisa: ok, got it.. then i should always "git pull origin openwrt_backfire"?12:02
aisaI just type git pull, but I think that one works too.12:05
aisawiki page is updated.  again.12:07
wolfspraulxiangfu: if I run a git clone from scratch, I can't checkout at all anymore12:08
wolfspraulmaybe the 'master' branch better always be there in fact, or some other problem?12:09
wolfsprauljust try git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/openwrt-xburst.git12:09
mthafaik "master" is only a naming convention for the main development branch, like "trunk" in SVN12:09
wolfspraulat the end it will say: warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout.12:10
wolfspraulmth: that's what I thought. just a string. but who knows...12:10
aisagit clone [blah] is working for me...12:10
xiangfuwolfspraul:hmm.. just need to "make package/frotz/{clean,compile} " will fix the frotz /tmp problem. since we don't update the frotz's Makefile. we don't need run ./scripts/feeds ....12:10
aisawaiting to see what it actually gives me...12:10
aisaah: warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout12:11
aisawe, uh, need to fix our refs.12:11
aisathe problem isn't that master isn't there, but that HEAD thinks it is.12:12
xiangfuwolfspraul: /tmp$ git clone git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-xburst.git12:12
xiangfuInitialized empty Git repository in /tmp/openwrt-xburst/.git/12:12
xiangfuremote: Counting objects: 158573, done.12:12
xiangfuremote: Compressing objects: 100% (54247/54247), done.12:12
xiangfuwolfspraul: works fine here.12:12
aisawait for it ;-)12:12
kristianpaulwolfspraul: great :) thank !12:12
aisayou'll pull down the repository, but won't be able to check out HEAD.12:12
aisaso you'll gave a .git dir, but nothing else.12:12
aisafor anyone with commit access:12:14
aisahttp://stackoverflow.com/questions/1961274/git-warning-remote-head-refers-to-nonexistent-ref-unable-to-checkout12:14
aisaI'll be happy to fix it myself if someone wants to give me commit access :-)12:15
wolfspraulaisa: do you have an account on projects.qi-hardware.com ?12:16
aisano, one moment.12:17
aisaoh, right.  The "sign in or create your account" has no "create your account" option.12:17
aisaI tried yesterday.12:17
xiangfuaisa: I update the HEAD by 'git remote set-head origin openwrt_trunk' but it not update the remote git.12:17
aisaxiangfu: I think you'll need to make a no-op change to have something to commit.12:18
aisaoh, sorry.12:18
aisaignore that.12:18
wolfspraulaisa: just go to 'sign in', say 'I am new here', etc.12:18
aisaxiangfu: do you have access to the remote directly?  like from the command-line and can run that command there?12:18
wolfsprauldid you do that?12:18
aisawolfspraul: dur, I see it now.12:18
xiangfuaisa: you mean, this must change at 'terminal' , like edit .git/config??12:19
wolfspraulneed to disappoint you, I think Indefero (the software behind the projects server) demands 3 characters minimum for account names :-)12:19
aisawolfspraul: I'll use alanpost, same as my wiki account :-)12:20
xiangfuaisa: yes. I have.12:20
aisaand done, btw.12:20
aisaxiangfu: I wonder if you should just set the remote there directly, using a similar command.12:21
xiangfuaisa: I need edit the .git/HEAD file right? because that command seems change .git/HEAD file12:23
aisaxiangfu: let me experiment to be sure, lest I give you terrible advice...12:23
aisawhat does cat .git/HEAD say?12:24
xiangfuaisa: very thanks12:24
xiangfuaisa: in my local: it's ref: refs/heads/openwrt_backfire (after run set-head)12:24
aisagood, mine too.12:24
aisawhat about the remote?12:24
xiangfuaisa: remote: [ref: refs/heads/master]12:25
wolfspraulaisa: I added you as member to both openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages12:25
wolfspraulyou probably need to upload your public ssh key but then at some point you should be able to commit12:25
wolfspraulthanks a lot!12:25
wolfspraulvery motivating to have you here pushing us :-)12:26
aisaxiangfu: edit that file, yes.  s/master/openwrt_trunk12:26
wolfspraulbetter openwrt_backfire for now12:26
aisaawww... thank you.  I can't tell you how excited I am about the NanoNote, it fills a need I've had that nothing else works for.12:26
aisawolfspraul: where do I upload my public key at?  I see also there is a way to link gravatar information, I imagine it is in same place.  But I do not see it.12:28
kristianpaulaisa: prefences12:29
aisakristianpaul: I don't see that on my screen.12:30
kristianpaulsorry not wait12:30
aisaI have Sign Out | Project List | Help12:30
kristianpaulhmm12:31
xiangfuwolfspraul, aisa: done and tested.12:31
aisafantastic.  let me try to download the whole thing again to test.12:32
xiangfuaisa: click you name  after the "Welcome"12:33
aisaxiangfu: that's it!  Yay!12:33
xiangfuaisa: then at left (maybe the third line) : Update your account.12:33
xiangfuaisa: no need to config gravatar. it's automatic link to yours by indefero system.12:34
aisaOdd:12:35
aisaa@fidelio:~/wa/test/openwrt-xburst$ git branch -r origin/HEAD -> origin/openwrt_backfire origin/openwrt_backfire origin/openwrt_trunk12:35
aisaa@fidelio:~/wa/test/openwrt-xburst$ git checkout --track -b openwrt_backfire origin/openwrt_backfire12:35
aisafatal: git checkout: branch openwrt_backfire already exists12:35
xiangfuaisa: no need to checkout to openwrt_backfire anymore.12:36
wolfspraulxiangfu: should we update the wiki page to say git checkout --track -b local_backfire origin/openwrt_backfire ?12:36
xiangfuaisa: I setup the HEAD to openwrt_backfire.12:36
wolfspraulxiangfu: yes but I think people should create a local branch, no? so they can commit locally etc.12:37
xiangfuwolfspraul: no need to checkout a new branch anymore.12:37
wolfspraulyou shouldn't directly operate on a remote branch I think12:37
wolfspraulthere's no 'need' but I thought it makes things easier, no?12:37
wolfspraulaisa: you could say git checkout --track -b local_backfire origin/openwrt_backfire, but let's see whether xiangfu or others think that's not needed.12:39
kristianpaulplease no, i relly apreciate a stable branch to work on localy12:39
kristianpaulreally*12:39
kristianpaulyes and then i can creame my loca branch to work locally12:40
wolfspraulkristianpaul: so you are saying the wiki should advise to create a local tracking branch or not?12:41
kristianpaulwolfspraul: yes i do12:41
kristianpaulmy point is i'll like have the source for the image my Ben nano have the be ablo to hack around12:42
kristianpauland sure if i want something more bleeding edge in develoment i can checkout devel brnahc12:42
kristianpauland take my risks :)12:42
xiangfuwolfspraul: hmm... for the READ-ONLY user. no need to create a new branch. becuase he don't have right to commit.12:42
wolfspraulyes but there is no harm either. create it once, done.12:43
xiangfufor the READ-WRITE users. I think it's depends personal habit12:43
wolfspraulso rather have some instructions on the wiki everybody follows and everybody is safe.12:43
xiangfuwolfspraul: ok.12:43
wolfspraulI'll edit the wiki. let's just call it local_backfire12:44
aisawolfspraul: local_backfire does work.12:44
aisaI can't see why it thinks I have a local branch called openwrt_backfire... :-(12:44
wolfspraulis that 'git fetch origin' actually needed right after git clone?12:45
aisano.12:45
wolfspraulif nobody objects, let's take it out from the wiki steps then12:45
aisaI agree with kristianpaul, I need a local branch.  I make lots of small commits and then package them up to ship them out.12:45
aisaI don't object, remove it.12:45
aisamake sure you get both of them.12:45
wolfspraulxiangfu: do you agree we can remove the 'git fetch origin' in the wiki?12:46
wolfspraulI am not 100% clear what it does, but it looks like not needed here...12:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: we can remove one.12:47
kristianpauli think is just to make sure the local repo is up to date to the remote branch12:47
xiangfukristianpaul: no. it's fetch all remove branch to local.12:48
xiangfufor example:12:48
xiangfu1. git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/openwrt-xburst.git12:48
xiangfuthen we only have origin/openwrt_backfire. but we don't have the origin/openwrt_trunk branch.12:49
wolfspraulreally?12:49
wolfspraulwell maybe we should leave it in then12:49
xiangfudon't have it in local.12:49
wolfspraulthen it sounds better to leave it in12:49
xiangfukristianpaul: up to date is "git pull origin ...."12:50
kristianpaulxiangfu: ah ok12:51
wolfspraulif that's true I suggest to leave it in, so that someone unsuspecting who thinks he has everything now won't suddenly need to go online when looking for something in the trunk branch, only to discover that there was some detail he overlooked when 'getting the sources'.12:51
kristianpaulfecth is not pull i see12:51
wolfspraulI won't touch it now... it's a wiki :-)12:51
wolfspraulif someone feels strongly it shouldn't be there - delete it12:51
xiangfuby the way . we should run "git remote prune origin" in local to remove the useless remote branch. or the 'master' and 'xburst' will be still there.12:54
kristianpaulhmm12:57
xiangfukristianpaul: is there 'master' or 'xburst' in [git branch -a] ??12:58
kristianpaulxiangfu: both12:58
kristianpaulahh wait12:58
kristianpauli miss -a12:58
kristianpaul  master12:58
kristianpaul* xburst12:58
kristianpaul  remotes/origin/HEAD -> origin/master12:58
kristianpaul  remotes/origin/openwrt_backfire12:58
kristianpaul  remotes/origin/openwrt_trunk12:58
kristianpaulxiangfu: ^12:58
wpwrak(btw, regarding /tmp, assuming the system is quiet and it's okay to risk upsetting it: mkdir -p $HOME/tmp; export TMPDIR=$HOME/tmp; sudo chown 750 /tmp; then see what happens :)12:58
kristianpaulwolfspraul: the tmp is on openwrt folder12:59
xiangfukristianpaul: ok. then not need "git remote prune origin", but you need "git remote set-head origin openwrt_backfire" :-)12:59
kristianpaulwolfspraul: you mean a home/tmp jsut in case?12:59
wpwrakkristianpaul: you mean me ? :)13:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: you13:00
wpwrakkristianpaul: i meant just to take away access to the "bad" tmp (thought you guys meant /tmp). so anything that tries to access it will fail.13:00
kristianpaulah ok13:00
kristianpaulyes i see the point now :)13:01
kristianpauli must leave see you on monday :)13:01
wpwrakof course, you better hope it doesn't do things like ... cd /; cd tmp; cd my_dir; rm -rf *   :-)13:02
kristianpaullol13:02
wpwrak(of course, if it does, it may be rather interesting to find about that, too :)13:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: have a nice offline weekend ! :)13:03
wolfspraulI will continue with hopefully cleaner OpenWrt configs tomorrow... n8 everybody13:03
aisaco'o la'oi wolfspraul13:04
kristianpaulnoches wolfspraul13:06
wpwraklarsc: if i get a project's kernel tree that tracks upstream, what would be a quick way to find out if it has decent support for the Ben ? e.g., what file(s) should i look for that have/has the "latest important changes" ?14:54
wpwraklarsc: ah, i think i found it. arch/mips/jz4740/Kconfig should be a good hint. hmm, seems linux-zigbee won't catch up before 2.6.36.14:59
tuxbrain2urandom__: hi18:12
urandom__tuxbrain2 oh hi18:12
tuxbrain2sorry I ask you a question about the port on supertux, but I can't connect until today18:13
tuxbrain2what's the status on it? any port on openwrt or jlime?18:13
urandom__there is a supertux version for dingoo i got to work on nanonote but it crashed when you had done a level, shouldnt be to hard to fix i think18:15
tuxbrain2I'm collecting cool games to include on NN , until now I got prboom, hexen, heretic, gnurobo(really addictive), blockrage,  running awesomly on jlime18:17
tuxbrain2also freenukum18:17
tuxbrain2I hope when bartbes finish also to port love, we can increase the number, but super tux will be a really hot stuff to include.18:19
urandom__supertux shouldnt be much work, its just someone has to do it and i dont feel like it18:20
tuxbrain2well guys, two really intensive days in valencia spreading the copyleft hardware word to a crowd of very interested university and enterprise guys on embedded computer, to much tired, but very happy, I think a bunch of SIE boards will have soon home in various universities in south of spain, and new company espcializedn in artificial vision willing to collaborate on Milkymist  proyect on the FPGA part, with an eye on Xue. now time to some sleep.18:24
tuxbrain2urandom__: ok no problem we will find out a solution :) regards and goodk818:24
tuxbrain_awaybtw: Nanonote was the start in our table in the clousurance dinner you will see the pics later on18:26
tuxbrain_awaystart->star18:26
mthtuxbrain_away: what are the criteria for inclusion? openMSX (MSX emulator) is GPL and the BIOS it uses is BSD licensed; there is a lot of freeware MSX software to run on it but most of that does not come with sources19:02
mthwhat happens here to the XATTRS option in the Makefile looks a bit suspect: https://dev.openwrt.org/browser/trunk/target/linux/generic/patches-2.6.35/006-squashfs_add_lzma.patch21:22
aisaI'm trying to make my first commit openwrt-packages.  *crosses fingers*21:46
wolfspraulaisa: after sleeping over my suggestion last night, now I believe the branch names tracking_trunk and tracking_backfire would be better :-)21:47
wolfspraulI need to become more calm...21:47
aisaha!  all right.21:47
aisawell, we fixed it once already...21:47
aisahave you made the change yet?21:47
aisanew change, that is.21:47
wolfspraulno, not again. I'm quiet.21:47
aisaWhen I try to commit,21:48
wolfspraulbut personally I now agree Xiangfu was right, openwrt_backfire may make some people believe that this is in fact the openwrt_backfire repository, but it is not.21:48
aisaI'm currently getting an error message.21:48
wolfspraultracking_backfire would be clearer21:48
aisaI can agree to this, it is a very good point.21:48
wolfspraulok, what do you get?21:48
aisawell, I pulled this repository anonymously.21:48
wolfspraulyou can try to edit .git/config21:49
aisausing git pull this way,21:49
aisait works.21:49
aisabut yes, I want to add my username.21:49
wolfspraulurl, should be url = git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-xburst.git21:49
aisais it my projects.qi-hardware.com username?  alanpost?  or is it my unix account name, 'a'?21:49
wolfspraulcan you look in your .git/config, see what the url is and change it to the one I just wrote?21:50
aisait is now:21:50
aisagit://git@projects.qi-hardware.com/openwrt-packages.git21:50
aisaurl = %s21:50
aisaI get:21:51
wolfspraulchange it to mine21:51
aisaUnable to look up git@projects.qi-hardware.com (port 9418) (Temporary failure in name resolution)21:51
wolfspraulurl = git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-xburst.git21:51
aisaawesome, ok.  Now I get:21:52
aisagit@projects.*/openwrt-packages.git': unable to chdir or not a git archive21:52
wolfsprauldid you really change it to mine?21:52
wolfspraulpost yours again (the one above looked wrong too btw)21:52
aisano, no I didn't.  fixing *again*...21:52
wolfspraulthere is a ':' after the domain name now21:53
wolfspraulindefero uses two systems, one unauthenticated, one authenticated21:53
wolfspraulthe unauthenticated one uses the git:// protocol21:53
aisaah, I must upload my private key to my test machine, haha.21:53
wolfspraulthe authenticated one uses the 'git' user account over ssh, then compares with the public key you sent to which projects you have access21:53
qi-bot[commit] Alan Post: Create package for makfa, the Lojban dictionary. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f4fa2d521:54
aisaHey!  That's me!21:54
wolfspraulthere you go21:54
wolfspraulcongratulations!21:55
aisaObviously, I could not test this package, as my NanoNote is still 1000 miles away.21:55
aisaBut I tested what I could.21:55
wolfspraulmaybe you are the first NanoNote customer ever to commit a package before even receiving the device.21:55
wolfspraulaisa: btw, when you get the device and turn it on - don't worry about the flickering. it's a software bug :-)21:59
wolfspraulthe LCM itself is rock stable, we have been able to fix some of those bugs recently so newer images should be better21:59
aisaSorry, I was afk.  I am happy to be the first to commit a package before receiving my device!22:01
aisaI wanted to ask:22:02
aisaI'm going to get my device, then I will be away from the internet for several days.22:02
aisaI guess I should not flash the machine, and deal with the flickering,22:02
aisaand then flash when I come back and start to debug the instability.22:02
aisaAs in, the testing images aren't stable enough to play around with?22:02
wolfspraulhmm22:02
wolfspraulmost of the 'playing around' with will be flashing & trying (installing) software22:03
wolfspraulyou should try Jlime and Debian too, if you are really adventurous even Iris?22:03
wolfspraulbut all of this will require internet access, download this and that22:03
wolfspraulthat's exactly our big problem, that as of today we haven't been able to bring a lot of good stuff into _one_ image in NAND, and ship devices like that22:04
wolfspraulmaybe Jlime actually has the best all-around experience right now22:04
wolfspraulI don't know, hard to compare22:04
wolfspraulDebian also of course, but it's very slow, slow boot time, too little memory22:04
mthaisa: if you can generate a NAND image, qemu-jz should be able to run it22:05
aisainteresting.  I read that you selected OpenWRT because it was what you used on OpenMoko and were therefor familiar with it.22:05
aisaI certainly have an interest in having a stable platform to build from.22:05
wolfspraulthe NanoNote should have a 06-15 image on it. I doubt you can spend several days just with it (offline).22:06
mthI've merged the JZ4740 support with a recent qemu here: http://github.com/mthuurne/qemu-dingoo22:06
mthand added things like support for larger NAND chips22:06
wolfspraulaisa: that's what we are working on here, to fill those 2 GB with some really valuable stuff! :-)22:06
wolfspraulaisa: for OpenWrt vs. OpenEmbedded, it's a long story22:08
aisaThe last time I was involved in embedded linux, it was with OpenEmbedded.  But that was many years ago.22:08
wolfspraulwhat I like about OpenWrt is that it seems to function well as a kernel development and upstreaming environment22:08
aisamth: I've "watched" your github project to bookmark it, so I can come back to it.22:09
wolfspraulmaybe because of the way the patches are managed, in individual files etc.22:09
wolfspraulthen it's easier to make images with fast bootup times22:09
wolfspraulI don't like bitbake (a tool in OpenEmbedded), feel much more comfortable with the Makefile driven approach in OpenWrt.22:10
wolfspraulbut then, the Jlime people use OE and they are able to make great images22:10
aisaThe thing I notice about OpenWRT is that it is very basic.22:11
aisaSo if you want an advanced runtime environment, there is a lot of work to do on the infrastructure.22:11
wolfspraulI would have no problem reflashing Jlime onto NanoNotes and shipping them out like that, as long as the patent problems are addressed (another story), and maybe in a dual-boot config with OpenWrt? don't know...22:11
wolfspraulaisa: what are you missing mostly?22:11
aisaOh, I'm going to have to write packages for nearly everything I want.  My version 1.0 dream is to have an environment to study lojban.22:11
aisathis means: dictionary, parser, and flashcard program.22:11
aisaI just uploaded the dictionary.22:11
aisaNanoNote will very easily support this.22:12
aisaMy longer term dream is to have a Tex environment and the ability to view .dvi files.22:12
aisaI want to display typeset text with embedded images.22:12
aisabasically, I want to display the following .pdf file:22:13
aisahttp://lodockikumazvati.org/le_vajrai_se_tadni/22:13
aisaOutside of being a study platform, I kind of plan to stick to the terminal:22:13
aisavi, wordgrinder, and sc.22:14
aisaI'm in the middle of writing up longer-term vision type documents.22:14
aisaAs to what kind of environment I'd like to see.22:14
aisaI don't really know if it will be broadly appealing.22:14
wolfsprauljust reading about Lojban on Wikipedia :-)22:17
wolfspraulinteresting, never heard about it22:17
aisaah, wonderful.22:17
wolfspraulI think we already have a lot of stuff working on the NanoNote, just not all coming together in one image.22:18
wolfspraulso if you can help with that process (which you started with already) - great!22:18
aisaWell, that means at least there are patches to make something work.22:18
aisaI'm quite happy to work on making the images generally better,22:19
aisawhile pursuing the packages I'm personally interested in.22:19
wolfspraulwell give you one example. there are 85 subdirectories (apps or libs) in openwrt-packages now22:19
wolfspraulthey were all specifically done for the Ben NanoNote, otherwise how could they end up on the qi server22:20
wolfsprauland they all worked at some point, for someone, in their build environment22:20
wolfspraulbut as of right now, 22 are marked BROKEN22:20
aisaI find it odd they aren't first arranged by category, because as more get added...22:20
aisaOh wow.22:20
aisathat is too bad.22:20
wolfsprauland from the other 63, there may be a lot that just build, but don't really work22:20
wolfspraulbecause:22:20
wolfspraulno definitely app list to check release images against, so things 'drop out'22:20
wolfspraulconfig file system broken, config files are too big and changing too much so diffs are huge and cannot be reviewed22:21
wolfspraulno test plan, so it's nearly impossible to avoid regressions in images, because nobody even knows what to test :-)22:21
aisamy config file system, do you mean /etc/* or do you meen config.full_system?22:21
wolfspraulOpenWrt configs22:21
aisas/my config/by config/22:21
aisayes, ok.22:21
aisaWhat is the one sentence or one paragraph vision of Ben NanoNote?22:22
aisaI ask because I need to keep a vision in mind as I work on this,22:22
wolfspraulpeople have done some cool stuff, like imgv, NanoMap22:22
aisaso I can use it to make decisions.22:22
aisaAlso, after answering that, please make this idea better.  It is the best one I've got:22:23
aisaWhat if we created an x86-flavor of our build, something we could run in qemu?  That way we could test without having to flash a device?22:23
aisaMy second-best answer is to keep a device plugged into a build computer for testing.22:23
wolfspraulI prefer to make working with the device easier, faster.22:24
aisaThis is good.  I saw on the wiki brainstorm sessions about use cases.  That was very valuable, but a clear vision did not emerge from it, as far as a target market.22:25
aisato which I could ask: What are we making easier?22:25
aisaeasier to hack on?  easier to use for a particular task?22:25
wolfspraulfor now I can only describe the technical challenges, it's too early for me to focus on applications as seen by the user. of course that is the goal later.22:27
aisathat is perfect.  It gives me a very clear idea about what is next.22:28
wolfspraulon the technical side, updating the software on the device is still very weak, and syncing data with a notebook/desktop is also weak.22:28
aisaI agree.22:28
wolfspraulthose are 2 big areas that are very important and a foundation for anything that comes later.22:28
wolfspraulhow to update, how to sync22:28
aisaI remember watching SquashFS projects wither on the vine for this very reason.22:29
aisaIt isn't clear to me what kind of relationship we have with openwrt.22:31
aisanamely about getting patches moved upstream.22:31
aisaIs anyone at qi-hardware also on the openwrt project?22:31
wolfspraulyes there is overlap. Qi hardware is a copyleft hardware project, OpenWrt is a free software distribution.22:33
wolfspraulso in a perfect world, we could just always use OpenWrt upstream to build our software. but realistically we may want to keep some local stuff, like the config files, maybe some experimental/development boards that OpenWrt is not interested in, etc.22:33
aisaI think you are correct.22:34
wolfspraulbut I would like to get anything into a state and quality that it would become acceptable in OpenWrt proper22:34
aisaThis is good to know.  And I like this plan.22:34
wolfspraulin fact some people do XBurst hacking right in OpenWrt upstream.22:34
wolfspraulthere are two repositories: openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages22:35
wolfspraulopenwrt-packages will not go upstream, unless some other package feed wants to carry these packages. openwrt-packages is to get new packages, new apps, into OpenWrt22:35
aisaThat was a question of mine.22:36
wolfspraulso if a package already exists somewhere else (as a feed), and we want changes, we would try to send our patches to that location22:36
aisaIt seems we have a mission slightly different from OpenWRT.22:36
wolfspraulwe had this once with joe & qijoe, I forgot the details of the solution but there was some solution.22:36
aisaWe want features that may not be appropriate for wireless routing.22:36
wolfspraulsure we are building images for specific devices, but OpenWrt is a build system22:37
aisaThat helps me very much, thank you.22:37
wolfspraulOpenWrt is not just for routers, I think it's fair to say that that is only the origin nowadays.22:37
aisagood.22:37
wolfspraulso with openwrt-xburst, it's a bit different. ideally the diff between that and upstream should be zero.22:37
wolfspraulif it's not zero, we will work towards zero, unless there are really one-off or Qi-specific things like config files, prototype boards and such22:38
wolfspraulso in the upstream strategy, openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages are very different22:38
wolfspraulopenwrt-packages is a permanent OpenWrt package feed with new apps that we couldn't find in other package feeds22:38
aisaYes, I am happy to hear this.  It matches what I would want to see.22:38
wolfspraulif a package is in openwrt-packages that also shows up elsewhere, we should try to reconcile with that repository22:39
wolfspraulthe 'qijoe' package needs to be cleaned up, we don't want to prefix packages with 'qi' (there was a big thread about this, like I said I forgot the details of the solution)22:39
aisaThe actionable direction I have taken from this conversation is this:22:42
aisaThat we need to document and formalize our build system, and in so doing improve our testing procedures.22:42
aisaThe measure of how well we do this is in the number of packages not marked broken, and perhaps the number of packages included in the base system image.22:43
aisaOh, and that the first goal is to make it easier to move data between a Ben NanoNote and another computer: images, repositories, packages, and data.22:43
wolfspraulfor the last one more specifically, how to update software on the Ben, how to sync (backup) user/original data from the Ben22:45
wolfspraul'move data' sounds very abstract22:45
aisaGood, thank you.  I'm going to clean this up and put it on my product backlog.  Probably at this point as a theme rather than a task.22:46
aisaI will decompose it into tasks as I get there.22:46
nebajothhttp://openusbfxs.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/control-alt-delete-a-bit-of-history/22:46
nebajoththat's an inspiring open hardware story22:47
nebajothabout an amateur22:47
nebajothbreaking into the game22:47
aisanebojoth: what is FXS?22:49
wolfspraulnebajoth: did you plan to come out with a new Debian image? do you have a rough timeline how you think this could play out?22:51
wolfspraulwill it be uploaded to the nanohacks site?////////22:51
nebajothI compiled 2.6.36 a couple weekends ago22:51
nebajothit didnt boot22:51
nebajothI havent debugged yet22:52
nebajothdebian rootfs needs more love than I can give it atm22:52
nebajothtimeline = dismal22:52
aisanebajoth: what do you mean by needs more love re: debian rootfs?22:53
wolfspraulnebajoth: no problem then get to it later...22:55
wolfspraullet's see how the patchset in openwrt gets reduced after 2.6.3622:55
nebajothmoar people with moar unbroken extents of time22:55
wolfspraulthat may give you some clues as to why it doesn't boot22:55
nebajothI'm somewha short on periods of deep concentration22:55
nebajothI'm literally typing one-handed with a one month old baby girl in my other arm22:56
nebajothbabby no likey nanonote22:56
nebajothnot yet anyway22:56
aisawolfspraul: I've summarized our conversation in my backlog:22:57
aisahttp://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/User:Alanpost/Backlog#Backlog_Vision22:57
wolfspraulnice!23:00
aisaYou can say that again when we achieve the goal :-D23:00
wolfspraulaisa: do you have a problem in naming the 2 branches in openwrt-xburst tracking_trunk and tracking_backfire?23:01
wolfspraulwhen xiangfu is back I will ask him what he thinks :-)23:01
aisaI think tracking is a better name, so I support this.23:01
aisaI'm surprised no one complained in the last many hours on the mailing list.23:02
aisaso we should take advantage of this and rename them again!23:02
wolfspraulwe haven't emailed the list yet (quite a few people will need to update their local repos), so renaming again quickly should do little damage23:02
wolfspraulyes, that's exactly how I think :-)23:02
wolfspraulwell there are not that many people who have the tree locally, maybe 10-20 I would estimate23:02
aisaI'm really amazed you build this device with so few people.  You're really awesome.23:03
wolfsprauland not many active contributors _right now_, partially because the process of stuff getting into images is very slow, so it doesn't encourage quick feedback and progress23:03
wolfspraulthe last usable image was 06-15, 3 months ago :-)23:03
aisaAs soon as we fix that we'll have to decide what is worthy of being in the image.23:03
aisanot that I'm saying we shouldn't get there as soon as we can.23:03
wolfspraulso you can imagine even someone who commits an app doesn't expect feedback, or the need for a better version, for at least 'a couple of months'23:03
wolfspraulmaybe we are overdoing the SlowFi lifestyle a bit23:04
aisaWas this true of the Neo too?  Or is it unique to the NanoNote?23:04
wolfspraulif a new image could come out once a month, or later even some other way to upgrade software (smoother, not needing a full reflash), that would be cool23:04
aisaI agree.23:05
aisaOf course, a new image coming out every month will also mean we'll need something interesting.23:05
aisaeither from upstream or packages that people have written.23:06
wolfsprauloh there is tons of stuff23:06
aisabut releasing often can come first.23:06
wolfspraulwe just have to package it right23:06
wolfspraulthat's what we are talking about here23:06
aisagood, ok.23:06
wolfspraultoo many regressions so far, too much chaos over which apps are in, out, broken, buggy, etc.23:06
wolfspraulif I see all the individual success stories of people talking about app a, b, c, and imagine we could have all this happiness in one image - WOW!23:08
wolfspraulthat's the challenge23:08
aisaI learned a lot from the lesson's learned document posted on the wiki.23:08
wolfspraulaisa: makfa-cli has no license?23:13
aisaIt doesn't in the source code.23:14
aisaIt does, in a looser sense,23:14
aisain that it is hosted on github.org, which I believe has a standard by which to judge a project.23:14
wolfspraulthat's not good, we do need to clarify that quickly. I would hesitate to include software with unclear licensing in the images, package repositories or Qi servers23:14
aisaOh indeed.23:14
wolfspraulah no worries you are doing the right thing, emailing the author etc.23:14
aisaIf I don't get an answer, I'll either pull it or just never include it in the install.23:14
wolfspraulyes we need to spend some time to clarify this23:14
aisaI will say that everyone in the Lojban community uses this program, so I believe it is an honest oversight.23:15
wolfspraulsure, like I said I appreciate you are going after this. it's good!23:15
wolfspraulwe really try to do a very clean and proper job on the freedom side.23:15
aisaI notice we don't even, say, link to the debian free software guidelines.23:16
wolfspraula BSD license would be enough, even public domain :-)23:16
aisaso we don't have official guidance on the wiki, as to what our definition of free software is.23:16
wolfspraulbut the author has to clarify the license23:16
wolfspraulit's funny but Debian includes patented codecs that can cause problems for us, so in general we avoid direct links to it23:17
wolfspraulthere's nanohacks.org :-)0000023:17
aisaaha, I didn't know that.23:17
aisaI just discovered this site :-)23:17
wolfspraulthat is nebajoth's site, not very active right now but he will definitely get back to it later, I think23:17
nebajothfor sure23:27
nebajothI'm down but I'm not out23:27
nebajothwhen I try to power on the NN, it says "Wrong Image Format for bootm command"23:28
nebajothERROR: can't get kern!@#*$(@#)$*23:29
aisawiggle the cord?23:29
aisa:-(23:29
nebajothno, I'm sure I've compiled the kernel wrong23:29
nebajothits 2.6.3623:29
nebajothit was my first kernel compile for the unit23:29
nebajothbound to fail23:29
nebajothjust not sure yet what I did wrong, as I haven't had time to investigate too closely23:29
nebajothits not a built environment failure, since I compiled ON the nanonote itself23:30
wolfspraulnebajoth: how long did that take?23:30
nebajothI recorded it, but its on the other computer23:31
nebajothI believe it took about 4-5 hours23:31
nebajothiirc23:31
wolfspraulnot too bad23:31
nebajothactually I was pleasantly surprised23:31
nebajothI do remember that23:31
nebajothI expected it to be still going when I woke up the next day23:31
nebajothI intentionally did it last thing before bed23:31
nebajothit'd be faster if it didn't have to swap to the sd card23:31
nebajothI bet23:32
nebajothI had zram compiled in and used the new mainline nanonote support and everything23:33
nebajothI wonder if I didn't prepare the resultant kernel image in the proper way23:33
wolfspraulwow nice, but... :-) it didn't boot :-)23:33
nebajothyeah23:33
nebajothalmost only counts in handshoes and hand grenades23:33
nebajoth"almost" only counts23:33
nebajothoh and curling23:34
nebajothand maybe darts23:34
nebajothits a stupid saying23:34
nebajothhorse shoes23:34
nebajothhttp://www.buzzfeed.com/furyus/japanese-bed-intruder-cover-3bm23:34
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