#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-09-07

wpwrakwolfspraul: for IEEE 802.15.4, I can work around it by outputting some high levels on data lines. that flows via the pull-ups into the uSD supply and charges the capacitors. once they00:00
wpwrak're full, it's safe to switch on the FET00:00
wolfspraulhmm00:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: in openmoko, we learned to love this under the name of "the Vsys issue" ;-)00:03
wpwrakit's a small world :)00:03
wolfspraulthe sdio wifi card works00:03
wpwrakinteresting. maybe they're doing some inrush current limiting. well, i'm not sure about what exactly is allowed at that interface. the "simplified spec" doesn't talk about this kind of details00:05
wpwrakbut then, all i add are 2 uF, and that seems to be enough00:06
wolfspraulyes I was just wondering about that. what does the spec say, and does the NanoNote SDIO perform up to spec or not. If it does, does it still make sense to make some of those breakout boards, or is sdio just too weak on the power side for any interesting applications?00:06
wolfspraulI think you are able to get some 'power' out of that, otherwise how can the wifi card work. But of course I cannot follow the details of your argument "capacitive load" "inrush current" etc., only the bottom line.00:07
wpwrakin the ben, sdio power is not really limited. the problem is inrush current. there is no current limit either. maybe an inductor could help.00:08
wolfspraulinductor where? on the side of the ben, or the side of the breakout pcb/cable/breadboard?00:08
wpwrakthere is the average power/current and the peak power/current. if you open the FET (transistor) to empty capacitors, they can draw a lot of current for a short moment00:09
wpwrak(inductor) better on the ben, but also outside can help00:09
wolfspraulyou tell me :-) can we find out more about the exact SDIO spec? is it interesting to know?00:10
wolfspraulwith your latest findings on the "peak power", is the breakout board still interesting? (I was planning to make some...)00:10
wpwraki think what's interesting to know is how the power performs in the ben at the moment. sdio specs could also be useful background information, of course.00:10
wpwraki think it is. just with some constraints.00:11
wolfspraulhow can we find out how the power performs?00:11
wpwrakconnect a scope to +3.3V, switch uSD power on :)00:11
wpwrakit's just on the wrong side of the board for my current experiments, but i'll get to it00:12
wolfspraulwould it help you if I sent you one of those spectec wifi cards?00:12
wolfspraulI was stupid to not include it in your gift package...00:12
wolfspraulI think I have 2 remaining here. And a 3rd one I loaned to someone who is doing nothing with it, but also doesn't respond to emails anymore :-)00:13
wpwraka packrat never says no :) but they would only provide one data point of what can happen00:13
wpwraki think the main problem may be the capacitors in the ben - not a much on the supply side and a lot on the uSD side00:13
wolfspraulat least you could plug it in, it should get turned on and even start the RF right away. I think it works out of the box. Then you could see what it does to power.00:13
wolfspraulah yes sure, I understand.00:14
wolfspraulI don't plan to recharge the e-car with the ben, over sdio. Like the xphone can.00:14
wolfspraulbut I think we should understand the sdio spec. if we do something that is out-of-spec it's not going to give us much joy anyway, sooner or later.00:14
wpwrakmy uSD board should add only 2 uF to the 10.1 uF that are already there. so if that's really all it takes to kill the system, it's very close to the edge00:14
wpwrakit could of course be that there's another problem. i'm not 100% sure about that.00:15
wolfspraulwell that's why I point to the wifi card00:15
wolfspraulin my naive thinking about this, I can only compare 'a little' and 'a lot' of power00:15
wolfspraulI would think the wifi card needs 'a lot'?00:15
wpwrak"a lot" of power can be okay if it's continuous00:16
wpwrakthe problem is if you need "infinite" power for a brief moment00:16
wolfspraulyes I got that. but there may be a 'peak' spec, and maybe any SDIO card/breakout just has to know and respect that, if it wants to be sdio compatible at least.00:16
wolfspraulso my question is - where should we fix this - on the side of the ben, or on the side of the sdio application00:17
wpwrakan ideal empty capacitor can draw an infinite current. a real capacitor doens't so that, of course, but it can still be huge00:17
wolfspraulok maybe I'm asking too early. let's see. keep me posted.00:17
wolfspraulI am still planning to make some of those breakout boards, unless they are useless.00:17
wpwraki don't know (yet) how well we can control inrush current on the board side00:17
wolfspraulyes but maybe it's just required, at least if you want to be sd/sdio compatible00:18
wpwraki also have another somewhat unsettling experiment: a 100 Ohm resistor connecting uSD VDD with GND. that one also kills the system.00:18
wpwrakin this experiment, all the resistor does is create a base load and make sure the capacitors in the ben don't precharge00:19
wpwrakagain, maybe some contact problems with the pseudo-uSD cards may get mixed into this00:19
wpwrakso a meaningful test would be without any card. just to see what the stuff inside the ben does.00:20
wpwraksdio spec is only relevant for sdio :) so yes, it does matter as far as we want to connect sdio peripherals. but for breakout board stuff, the benchmark would be whatever people would ""typically" want to connect;.00:21
wpwraksome fat capacitors may be among it00:22
wpwrakof course, the breakout cable could also have an inductor :)00:22
wpwrakand even software may be able to solve it, e.g., by pulsing power00:22
wpwrak(pulsing) when you open the FET, +V3.3 will not drop instantly but it will take some time to drop to the critical level. so if you close the FET quickly enough, the capacitors in the uSD side will be a little charged but +V3.3 will not be compromised. then repeat this a few times, and the uSD capacitors will be at a safe level.00:26
wolfspraulhmm00:26
wolfspraulcarlos and others want to attach an fpga/cpld to sd/sdio, does that make sense given the power limitations?00:28
wolfspraul(I understand the peak/continuous/capacitor stuff... just trying to find 'action items' for me to do :-))00:28
wolfspraulmaybe none yet... too early I think00:28
wpwraki would expect some suffering :)00:31
wpwrak(bah, router/server just stopped. just like that.)00:31
wpwraka quick look at the schematics shows about 20 uF on the ben side and 10 uF on the uSD side. if the ben side is fully charged and you turn on the FET, you get the same energy distributed over 30 uF, so that would be around 2.6 V.00:33
wpwrakadd more on the outside and it gets worse00:33
wpwrakthere are 10 uF more behind a bead that may come to the rescue. and eventually, the regulator will catch up.00:34
wpwrakwell .. let's just see. now i'm curious enough :)00:36
wpwrakhmm. system is dead, scope didn't trigger. grmbl. let's try again00:40
wpwrakvery strange. i don't see any problem on +v3.3, but the system still dies00:58
wpwrakhmm, for some reason, my scope doesn't trigger. but some change certainly happens.01:06
wpwrakbetter. i see a dent :) now, without the rf board01:09
qi-bot[commit] kyak: NanoMap: Add a checkbox to skip downloading already downloaded tiles http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/cec800002:05
kyakmirko: hey, are you there?03:09
kyakok, maybe you'll read later..03:11
kyakfor some reason, qt4-packages are not selected automatically during menuconfig.. ie.. i can select them (need CONFIG_PACKAGE_qt4-drivers-gfx-directfb for NanoMap) manually, but every time i run manuconfig again, they are deselected.03:13
kyakmirko: i see your commit here http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/openwrt-xburst/source/commit/73e7e7a766274ed8978c3fd5b35b8b136695730b/ , does it mean you also had to select it manually?03:15
kyakxiangfu: hi! how was your latest build?04:30
kyaki saw you changed back to uClibc-0.9.32.. is it working?04:30
kyakxiangfu: i asked mirko already, but you might know, too:04:33
kyakfor some reason, qt4-packages are not selected automatically during menuconfig.. ie.. i can select them (need CONFIG_PACKAGE_qt4-drivers-gfx-directfb for NanoMap) manually, but every time i run manuconfig again, they are deselected.04:33
xiangfukyak:  yes. same here. don't know why.04:34
xiangfuand is the build is involved by cron jobs the rootfs.ubi only 20M04:34
xiangfus/is/if04:34
kyakhm, how do you start it?04:35
xiangfukyak: make distclean -- cp the config file -- feeds update, install -- make04:35
kyakyou might know, cron doesn't have your interactive shell (even if it's started under your user), so some env. variables are missing04:36
kyakoh04:36
kyaki'd suggest make distclean -- make package/symlinks -- cp the config file -- make04:36
kyakbecause make package/symlinks (same as feeds update/install) deface your .config04:37
kyakxiangfu: what about uClibc-0.9.32?04:38
xiangfukyak: oh. yes.04:39
xiangfukyak: not test the ubi image today.04:39
xiangfukyak: ok. I will compile again. if finished I will give you some feedback :)04:39
kyaki'm afraid uClibc-0.9.32 will do bad04:40
kyakbut i'm compiling right now04:40
xiangfukyak: hmm.. we need fix the uClibc-0.9.3204:44
xiangfukyak: I will try to work on that. we will see :)04:45
xiangfukyak: NanoMap doesn't work in  2010-09-06, because the make menuconfig didn't select the QT-linux-fb... driver.04:50
kyakxiangfu: yeah, i know about NanoMap, i had to select qt4-drivers-gfx-directfb manually to make it work05:35
kyakxiangfu: startdict is also not working for a long time now05:36
kyakit just hangs during start05:36
xiangfukyak: in 2010-09-06, works fine in my Nanonote.05:37
kyakxiangfu: maybe because i tested with uClibc-0.9.30.105:42
xiangfukyak: the 2010-09-06 is using the 0.9.30.05:45
xiangfuthe startdict not work with 0.9.3205:45
xiangfubut , since Mriko vogt update to 0.9.32. let's focus on the 0.9.32 :)05:46
kyakyes, good point05:47
kyakthere is 0.9.32 without nptl support05:48
kyakmaybe that would work05:48
kyaki don't understand why stardict doesn't work for me, could you please provide your build log for stardict?05:49
kyakmaybe some libraries from my host are messing the compilation05:49
kyakruby is still 1.9.1-p376, won't compile with openssl-1.006:38
kyakwell ok, don't need it anyway06:38
wpwrakhm. something does not compute. i'm beginning to see what i expected to see, but the timing is all wrong.08:00
wpwrakah, found it :)08:03
wpwrakand killed the ben without external help. heh :)08:04
wpwrakfirst time i manage to do that :)08:04
wolfspraulxiangfu: when I compile the latest config.full_system, I run into a Qt error08:45
wolfspraul.obj/release-shared-emb-mipsel/qauthenticator.o: In function `qNtlmPhase3(QAuthenticatorPrivate*, QByteArray const&)':08:45
wolfspraulqauthenticator.cpp:(.text+0x2b84): undefined reference to `QDataStream::QDataStream(QByteArray*, int)'08:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: I am still compiling. start at 16:30 today. :)08:46
xiangfuwolfspraul: I try to grep the build log. seems the qauthenticator.o compile fine here.08:47
xiangfuwolfspraul: ok. compile fine here.08:48
xiangfuwolfspraul: have you run "./scripts/feeds update -a && ./scripts feeds install -a " ??08:50
wolfspraulI did, but I'll just do it again08:59
larscwell, there is someone working on the qt package. so the breakage might be the result of some recent commits09:04
wolfspraullarsc: how is the backfire branch handled. I'm confused. Does OpenWrt originally (upstream) have svn or git? are there branches for backfire?09:08
wolfspraulthe xburst branch in openwrt-xburst, is it based on backfire? or just on upstream trunk?09:08
larscopenwrt uses svn09:10
larscthere is a branch of the basesytem for backfire09:10
larscthe package repository though is shared between different releases09:10
larscopenwrt-xbursts xburst branch is based on backfire09:11
GNUtoo|laptophi,lol about openwrt names, specially the kamikaze name, because even it's a coctail it makes people thing it's the development unstable branch09:12
xiangfularsc: do you know if there is public backfire-branch git ??  because I saw the the openwrt-xburst xburst branch merge the backfire from a git service09:14
larscxiangfu: http://nbd.name/gitweb.cgi?p=backfire.git;a=summary09:16
wolfspraulok thanks, learning...09:17
xiangfularsc: thanks09:20
Action: xiangfu is git clone the backfire.git :)09:30
kristianpaulkyak: the nanomap already support gpsd?09:39
kyakkristianpaul: should support, but i never tried09:43
kristianpaulkyak: just run it and ya, or i need some paramater?09:48
kyakkristianpaul: sorry, i only used it for offline mapping :)09:57
kristianpaulkyak: oh ok10:01
tuxbrainwpwrak: there is an schematics of the leds some where?10:01
tuxbrainwpwrak: I see there is a kicad file but I don't have kicad installed10:04
wpwraktuxbrain: hehe, high time to install it ;-) but wait, i'll convert ...10:18
wpwrakhttp://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/bbl.ps10:20
tuxbrainthanks :), kicad is a little out of bounds to me right now, I more a Fritzing(less than newbie) guy :P10:32
wolfspraultuxbrain: werner has worked on some amazing schematics diff visualization10:33
wolfspraulwe'll get it onto the qi server, definitely10:33
tuxbrainwolfspraul: you mean diff as in soft code??? wow :) any source of info about it, it will be good material to comment at CEDI10:35
kristianpaulWTF china power? pp3dp.com :O10:39
wolfspraultuxbrain: you weren't in irc for a while, so I'm not sure maybe you missed this? maybe you already know?10:41
wolfspraulhttp://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/demo2/10:41
wolfspraulthat's an example of it (ignore the left columns, just scroll to the far right first)10:41
wolfspraulyou see the commits into the Xue camera kicad git repository (on the right)10:41
wolfsprauland in the columns left of it, each column stands for 1 page of the schematics10:41
wolfsprauland the green and red stuff visualizes the changes introduced by each commit10:42
wolfspraulyou can click on one of the small overview graphics to get a bigger one, and if you click on that you even get a PDF with separate before/after apges10:42
wolfspraulabsolutely brilliant stuff!10:42
tuxbrain:o10:42
tuxbrainWOOOOOOOOOOWWWW!10:43
tuxbrainthis is the best fucking graphical example of what qi-hardware is about10:43
kristianpaul:)10:43
Action: tuxbrain lack of enough hands to clamp10:43
tuxbrainclap10:44
larscthe visual diff is awesome :)10:50
tuxbrainthe hole thing is very intuive, :) there is a name for such thing?10:51
wolfspraulno name10:54
wolfspraulit's not live yet (on the qi server), that's on my end now10:54
wolfspraulmaybe one day it can be extended for layout too, but my part is first to get this thing live...10:55
wpwrakwolfspraul: i still need to move it to a better place.  i think i'll skip the history migration to save time, though.10:57
wpwrakwolfspraul: the history is "personal" anyway, nobody really looked at the code until perhaps the last one or two commits. so the old history doesn't convey much useful information.10:57
wpwrakwolfspraul: trading style for expeditiousness :)10:59
wolfspraulyou mean the history of the scripts?10:59
wpwrakyes11:03
wolfspraulsure, the authorship is clear anyway11:04
wpwrakthat too :)11:06
wpwraktuxbrain: (name) the script is called schhist2web :)11:19
wpwrakmaybe i'll just call it schhist. can't think of a nice name.11:19
tuxbrain:o leds blinking!!!! :) :) :) :)11:33
wpwraktuxbrain: you got it to work ? congratulations ! :)11:43
tuxbrainit works on debian (where I compile while flashing the 600Mb of the beta nanowar edition distro) and now is working on the jlime nanowar edit. where is my video camera!!!!!11:54
tuxbrain???11:54
wpwraktuxbrain: i think you need a camera team ;-) and you should send the video of you doing eight things at the same time to Bruce Schneier. he likes squid :-)12:08
tuxbrainwpwrak: hey and all knowing barelly nothing about nothing :)12:11
wpwraktuxbrain: you'll make it far ;-)12:12
tuxbrainwpwrak: just if I can parasite knowledge from people like you :P12:17
wpwraksounds like an efficient strategy :)12:18
Action: kristianpaul parasite12:18
leviathantuxbrain: hi13:42
GNUtoo|laptopleviathan, pm him13:42
leviathanGNUtoo|laptop: ok13:42
tuxbrainhi13:42
GNUtoo|laptopbecause qi-hardware is specific to qi-hardware such as the ben nanonote,the milkymist etc...13:42
GNUtoo|laptopcopyleft hardware13:42
GNUtoo|laptopfully free software13:42
GNUtoo|laptopetc...13:43
tuxbrain:) totally try GNUtoo|laptop :)13:43
GNUtoo|laptoplekernel, for the milkymist imagine a FLOSS SOC13:44
GNUtoo|laptops/FLOSS/free13:44
lekernel?13:44
GNUtoo|laptopoops sorry13:44
GNUtoo|laptops/lekernel/leviathan13:44
GNUtoo|laptoplekernel, you're french btw?13:45
lekernelyes13:45
GNUtoo|laptopok13:45
GNUtoo|laptopme too13:45
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: ah i tought you 're Italian14:35
GNUtoo|laptopI live in italy14:35
GNUtoo|laptopbut that doesn't means I'm italian14:35
kristianpaulahh i se14:35
kristianpaulhehe not of course i just supposed14:35
kristianpaulanywya..14:36
qi-bot[commit] kyak: NanoMap depends on dejavu-fonts-ttf http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/f7a7fa515:14
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: - tools/lib/atusd.c (atusd_cycle): we never turned power back on ? http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/406517b16:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Fix board initialization in uSD driver. atspi-id now works. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b25cbd816:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved schhist2web and friends over to project eda-tools. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/002941d16:07
wpwrakhmm, i think i'll have to unearth the "myroot" build system soon, to have a lean alternative to openwrt but with "regular" programs. the things busybox does are plain scary. e.g., running17:39
wpwrakstrace -f sh -c 'echo jz4740-mmc.0 >/sys/bus/platform/drivers/jz4740-mmc/unbind'17:40
wpwraktwice. the second run gets an ENODEV and then all hell breaks loose.17:40
wpwraki.e., http://pastebin.ca/193532317:45
wpwraktry to write. oh no, that didn't work. try to write a bit less then. still no go. try again. give up ... and write to stdout instead ! what kind of surrealist dreams up this sort of thing ?17:47
emebgnarly17:51
emebso this is all due to busybox subsuming almost all ordinary commands in the system?17:52
emeb(and presumably not quite getting it right)17:53
wpwrakemeb: this is the sort of productivity killers that are lurking in those "light" tool replacements, dropbear, busybox, dash, and the like. every once in a while you run into a completely baffling anomaly and it takes you a long while to realize it's not some bizarre effect caused by whatever it is you're doing.17:53
emeb:)17:53
Action: emeb has fought with dropbear in the past17:54
wpwrakemeb: (busybox taking over) yup, /bin/sh is a link to busybox17:54
emebbusybox is probably not necessary on the Ben - there's enough room in the flash for a real system17:55
emebit's more a hold-over from the openWRT roots17:55
emebwpwrak: google doesn't turn up anything meaningful for 'myroot'17:56
emebdo  you mean buildroot? http://buildroot.uclibc.org/17:56
wpwrakyup. the ben shouldn't need this kind of diet. we've had the same story in openmoko. at the beginning, also everything was those reduced tools. and every once in a while, some new trap was found.17:56
wpwrakfinally, after years, they got replaced with the real things.17:57
wpwrak(buildroot) naw, i have a system that builds a small rootfs from packages (for the openmoko environment). svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/myroot/17:57
emebah - quotes around 'myroot' turns up the openmoko stuff...17:58
emeblooks a bit more lightweight than buildroot...17:58
emebbut using std tools...17:59
wpwrakit'17:59
wpwraks ver lightweight. needs a package repository to work from, though. perhaps jlime would be a good basis.17:59
emeb*nod*17:59
wpwraki'll have to chat with rafa about this when he's back.18:00
Action: Textmode shudders20:53
Textmodetext editing on the nanonote, never hated the default 8-space tab so much in my life :P20:54
kristianpaulheh having 23 register to drive gpio may sound crazy but at the end gives more organization :)21:43
kristianpaulokay now i got this,  do i need write memory directly? or that could end in linux be mad with me? ;)21:44
Action: kristianpaul checks wpwrak code now *seriuosly*21:44
kristianpaulmorning xiangfu :)21:50
xiangfukristianpaul: Hi21:50
kristianpauleso !21:50
kristianpauloops21:50
tuxbrain2wpwrak: thia is dedicated to you (the video not the song :P) http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Leds.ogv22:03
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: wait !22:04
kristianpaultuxbrain_away: whereis the vibrator??22:04
kristianpaulhmm i have that kidn of usd adapter, i'll copy tuxbrain_away idea :)22:06
kristianpaulxiangfu: any news a about xbusrt openwrt?22:22
kristianpauli jsut noticed some oggs22:22
kristianpaulbut about SDL and other knw issues?22:22
xiangfukristianpaul: not must. we only update the config file.22:25
xiangfurecently22:25
kristianpaulyou mean the config this one  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/software/images/Ben_NanoNote_2GB_NAND/latest/config ?22:33
rejon_hi dudes22:35
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: disselect the exo package. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/12f1f2522:37
xiangfukristianpaul: this one: openwrt-xburst/data/qi_lb60/conf/config.full_system22:38
kristianpaulxiangfu: ok22:43
kristianpaulrejon_: hola :)22:43
rejon_hi22:43
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: to make gpgme work at least the path to the gpg binary has to be set... http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/e6125bb22:54
rejon_you dudes have more news? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Community_News_2010-09-0822:58
rejon_please add to the list22:58
kristianpaulxiangfu: http://paste.debian.net/88483 this was an error compiling witha  loongsoon procesor23:17
kristianpauljust FYI23:17
kristianpaulwpwrak: hey now i udenrstand your poke ;)23:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: i'm just a bit missing on this part http://paste.debian.net/8848423:25
kristianpauli hope re-use this on my development23:26
kristianpaulthanks !23:26
kristianpaulnow time to sleep tomorrow i'll focus on understan the importance of a linux module23:26
kristianpaulgn823:26
Action: kristianpaul reads https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mmap23:30
kristianpaulahh who knows what is for or where is joined the TP77 ??23:47
kristianpaulalso TP2823:47
kristianpaulsorry TP3823:47
kristianpaulTP2323:48
--- Wed Sep 8 201000:00

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