#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-09-06

kyakxiangfu: hi! how is your success with the latest build?01:41
kyakmine is not very good01:41
kyakNanoMap is not working (complains that now driver could be found, lookinf for /usr/bin/gfxdrivers/)01:41
kyakstartdict is hanging is before, during startup01:41
kyaknlove couldn't be started, too01:42
bartbesthat's not a problem with the image though01:44
bartbesthe default screen you see when there are no arguments passed is still 800x60001:44
kyakbartbes: yeah.. it complains something about booter.lua01:44
bartbesso it can't open the display01:44
bartbesor.. that01:44
bartbesif you feed it a game it'll work01:44
kyakhm, how do i do it?01:44
kyaki just 'nlove'01:44
xiangfukyak: :( mine is still compiling.  I start is 4 hours before.01:45
bartbeswell, first you get a game, so npong: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/npong.love01:45
bartbesor snake: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/440010/nlove/snake.love01:45
bartbesthen you run nlove <game.love>01:45
bartbesI should fix the no game stuff sometime01:46
kyakbartbes: ok, thanks! gonna give it a try :)01:49
kyakfor some reson, i thought that "nlove" IS the game :) though i remember you explained it's just a framework01:49
kyakxiangfu: well, ok, maybe you'll have a better luck :)01:51
kyakxiangfu: is your latest config commited to git?01:52
xiangfukyak: no. since it's still compiling.01:52
kyaki mean, the one from 3rd September01:53
kyakor when you made the previous build01:53
xiangfukyak: hmm.. I am not keep that one.02:22
wolfspraulxiangfu: I think you should commit the config file before you even start the build. what is the advantage of keeping it local?02:23
wolfspraulthe revision control system can handle a few revisions :-)02:23
xiangfuwolfspraul: I want test before commit. :)02:24
xiangfuwolfspraul: I don't think without test , then just commit is a good idea.02:24
wolfspraulyes but it's a config file, and it needs to be copied to .config manually02:25
wolfspraulso whatever you commit, even if you commit a 'broken' config file, the build process that involves it is still manual02:25
xiangfuwolfspraul: ok.02:25
wolfspraulit's more like a documentation file, give its position in the directory tree02:25
wolfspraulwell that's my opinion only, if someone disagrees fine. do what you think is right.02:26
xiangfuwolfspraul: understand. :)  thanks.02:26
wolfspraulbut you see there were several people already asking now, and you send the file by mail, or you don't have it anymore, etc.02:26
wolfspraulsounds like if you would use revision control, you could point everybody to what they are asking for02:26
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes.02:27
wolfsprauland you don't break the build, because this file is in a manual-use location in the tree anyway02:27
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes02:27
xiangfuwolfspraul: I have add a sample music file to /root/Music02:27
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add some sample music file. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/e39e43e02:28
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update config to use uClibc, change VERSION to 2010-09-06 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/0b9c16f02:28
wolfspraulwe need to think about that 'including data' problem later in more detail02:28
wolfspraulbut some sample files are good for now02:28
xiangfuwolfspraul: I follow the roh's suggest. put a README file and attach the sample URL. license.02:29
wolfspraullater if we want to include more data, say entire dictionaries, wiki content, maps, etc. we need a way to package them. should we use normal openwrt .ipks for the data? or some other mechanism? I don't know.02:29
wolfspraulsure that's OK for now, that's about satisfying the attribution requirement.02:29
wolfspraulI am talking about larger amounts of data now, say entire offline wikis, or larger amounts of map data.02:30
wolfspraulhow should they come to the nano, packaged in which way? openwrt is typically only used for binaries (executables), maybe some small amount of documentation files02:30
wolfspraulbut entire music albums? hundreds of megabytes of data? like I said don't know.02:31
xiangfuwolfspraul: hmm.. me either.02:32
bartbesslackware tgzs02:34
wolfspraulbartbes: slackware tgzs what? can you be more precise?02:37
wolfspraulI think the normal packaging systems are suited for binaries and especially dependencies/versioning of packages.02:37
bartbesit's just a tgz but it includes full paths02:37
bartbesso if you want to install something to /usr/share/gmenu2x/epic-wallpaper.png02:37
wolfspraulso what? we put such files on the server somewhere? how do they get installed, how uninstalled? are updates necessary?02:38
wolfspraulfor example offline wiki content, dictionaries, map data02:38
bartbesyou have a tgz containing a folder usr, which contains share, which contains gmenu2x which then contains the wallpaper02:38
wolfspraulcannot have all maps of the whole world on the nanonote02:38
bartbesto install you just extract02:38
wolfspraulsay for nanomap02:38
bartbesof course removing is.. somewhat.. harder02:38
wolfspraullet's say you go to a trip in nothern italy02:38
wolfspraulflorence, venice, verona02:39
wolfspraulhow can you quickly get all of northern italy onto your nanonote?02:39
wolfsprauland when you are back home, do you quickly delete it02:39
bartbesyes, I know what you want to do02:39
wolfspraulor say offline english wiki data02:39
wolfspraulhere the main issue is probably updates02:39
wolfspraulhow to update it?02:39
wolfspraulsure we can throw everything into .ipk and reuse that system02:39
bartbesa super-intelligent bash (ehm.. ash) script02:40
wolfspraulbut : 1. that's definitely a different usage of the packaging system than what anybody upstream would use it for. 2. it may not be suited well to the needs of large amounts of data, incremental updates, etc.02:40
wolfspraulfor example I would like to quickly have a couple of Chinese cities in nanomap02:41
wolfspraulthe whole guangzhou/shenzhen/hongkong section :-)02:42
wolfspraulwell we see, don't need to find a perfect system today02:42
bartbesI'd suggest a vcs if they weren't so inefficient (with space)02:42
wolfspraulbut as the software gets better (the viewers & editors), the question of how to get larger amounts of data to the ben and removed becomes more important02:43
wolfspraulotherwise why have viewers?02:43
wolfspraulfor larger amounts, incremental updates would also be cool02:43
bartbesofc you would have to mount a lot02:44
wolfspraulmy feeling is data is just different from binaries, maybe some solutions already exist02:44
bartbesbut you'd get self-contained data 'files'02:44
wolfspraulthe normal packaging systems are geared towards the needs of binaries02:44
wolfspraulheavy on dependencies, versioning02:44
wolfspraulbartbes: what do you mean with vcs?02:45
wolfspraulsorry that abbreviation doesn't ring a bell02:46
bartbesversion control system02:46
bartbes(git, hg, etc)02:46
wolfspraulmost are really weak with binary data02:46
bartbesthey are inefficient anyway02:46
wolfspraulbut in a lot of cases we may be dealing with binary data02:46
bartbesso, I then said squashfs02:47
wolfspraulI don't know. how does that help with the delivery problem, incremental updates, removal of data.02:49
bartbeswell, removal is easy02:49
bartbesjust remove the sfs file, done02:49
bartbesupdates are a problem, yes02:49
wolfspraulI think we need some software, just like dpkg/opkg, but tailored to the needs of data02:49
bartbesbut at least it contains all data in a 'package'02:49
wolfspraulI don't believe in twisting tools that were made for a particular purpose to do something else.02:50
wolfspraulI cannot believe that we are the first ones to look into this problem.02:50
wolfspraulthe nanonote has 2gb today, not that much02:50
wolfsprauland tomorrow? 16gb, 32gb, etc?02:50
wolfspraulwhat to do with all this space?02:50
wolfsprauljust need some good 'data manager' that knows what type of data it is managing, can get updates, can visualize amounts of data, make it easy to remove etc.02:51
wolfspraulwhat data are we talking about?02:51
wolfspraulmusic, videos, dictionaries/wiki content, maps02:51
bartbesgames :P02:53
wolfspraulyes sure, games. but many of those are still well suited to be managed by normal package managers, no?02:53
bartbesit seems a bit useless to make a ipk for a single .love file02:53
wolfspraulsure but then you just package suites of games02:54
wolfspraulunless the data content becomes really large, I think normal .ipks will just do fine02:54
wolfspraulwhat I am talking about is more about music albums, maps, etc.02:54
wolfspraulfor a music album, there will never be dependencies02:54
wolfspraulnor will there be an 'update' or a 'new version'02:55
wolfspraulthere may be different music. I may get bored with some album.02:55
bartbesbut for maps there will be updates02:55
wolfspraulbut maps will be so big, you cannot have the whole world on your nano02:55
wolfspraulto it should be easy to swap in and out, for trips02:55
wolfsprauland it should be easy to update, if you are in a region a bit longer, say your home region02:56
bartbesbut what I meant is, that you should not rule out versioning02:56
wolfspraulalso let's say your device is full, but you need some free space, the data manager should be able to quickly help you free a couple hundred meg02:56
bartbesalso, I wondered.. wouldn't it be great if it were capable of installing straight from your computer?02:57
wolfspraulsaying "there is these 5 music albums that you haven't listened to in a year anyway" - click here to delete02:57
wolfspraulthe data manager should present me with 'unused data', the same way dpkg can tell me about orphaned or unused packages02:58
bartbesbig diff02:59
bartbesit does that based on deps02:59
wolfspraulbartbes: yes, fine [versioning] but my point is, if the people writing the tool, say opkg, don't really wrap their head around the needs of data, in the use cases we are talking about here, then abusing their tool for data may work for a while, but will never be really god02:59
bartbesnot on whether you actually use it or not02:59
wolfsprauland if you explain your problems to them, they will be like "oh, we never use our tool like this"02:59
wolfspraulI don't feel right packaging a 100 mb music album into an .ipk file03:00
wolfsprauldoes anybody else do that?03:00
wolfspraulthere's some activity in distributed filesystems, but not sure whether it applies03:03
wolfspraulI don't believe massaging this into sql databases either, they were built for relational data... doesn't fit.03:03
wolfspraulare any of the distributed file systems any good nowadays? andrew, coda, etc? do they apply to this problem?03:07
wpwrakOrnotermes: hmm, have you tried drawing power from VDD ? I'm getting ridiculously little current04:27
Ornotermeswpwrak: i got a slow voltage drop when i connected my scope, so i suspect the fet transistor is switched off04:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: the real solution for xiangfu's slow updates will be to get him a faster PC :) also, even if the config is copied manually, if I understand what this is about, people who follow the manual process would still pick up the untested file, no ?04:30
Ornotermeswpwrak: check the state of PD0204:31
wpwrakI see the voltage rise and fall like it should. but when i add any kind of significant load, it drops badly.04:32
wpwraki modified an otherwide empty board to have a 100 Ohm resistor between VDD and GND. voltage drops to about 66 mV. that can't be right.04:38
wpwrakoh, wait. i have GPD06, not GPD02. hmm :)04:39
Ornotermesi traced it to PD02 anyway, but i could ofc be wrong :P04:40
wpwrakPD02 definitely looks right.04:42
wpwraknot sure where i got the GPD6 from04:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: if we only commit the config file after a successful image release, we have created a huge bottleneck to ever improve the image in the sense that more stuff is included04:57
wolfspraulin fact, this is why after over a year, we still don't have at least 50 easily included apps included, and sometimes even some apps 'drop out'04:58
wolfspraulit must be the other way round. whenever someone commits an app that compiles, the respective line in the config file is set to Y, and the config file is committed04:58
wolfspraulif someone builds an image later, and some apps don't compile, it's easy to set them to N again04:58
wolfspraulthe other way round simply means that there will never be progress in completing the apps that are included04:59
wolfspraulor maybe it takes a few centuries, at the speed we give feedback such as 'sox is missing', and then it takes x months until that is reflected in the image04:59
wolfspraulso like I said - everybody should feel free to 'enable' a nice little app in the config file, and commit that 1-line change right away04:59
wolfspraulat least until we feel we have a really strong set of 'base apps' in the image and running out of space in the rootfs05:00
wpwrakwill people who follow the build instructions pick up such untested configs ? if yes, that would be bad05:03
wolfspraulcurrently we have 2 config files (remember, at that location the configs are more like documentation / starting points)05:03
wpwrakone "stable" and one "testing" ?05:03
wolfspraulone is for xbboot (rescue image to be booted via usbboot), and the other one is an image that should include as complete as possible set of 'base apps'05:04
wolfspraulwe could have a third config file, empty base system05:04
wolfspraulbut when would someone need config.base? I don't know05:05
wpwrakseems that you need a stage for yet to be tested configs. that way, people who can't wait for xiangfu's pc can pick the bleeding edge config, while those who just want to build anything recent will get the stable one05:05
wolfspraulno no. I don't see the config files as having anything to do with development. it's not about unstable/testing/stable05:05
wolfspraulit's just a list of apps, Y or N05:06
wolfspraulso the xbboot image needs to be small05:06
wolfspraula few megs05:06
wolfsprauland only needs tools you would want in a rescue situation05:06
wolfspraulsince this is an initramfs that is loaded to boot/unbrick a nanonote directly from usbboot05:06
wolfspraulthe smaller the better (in that case)05:06
wolfspraulthe factory default should make some use of the NAND, which otherwise is just empty, and include all meaningful apps contributed or tailored for the Ben NanoNote05:07
wolfspraul                    reflected in the image05:07
wpwrakdid a config change ever have to be reverted due to problems ?05:07
wolfspraulof course, whenever an app actually doesnt' compile05:07
wpwrakaha ! so it is "development" :)05:07
wolfspraulmost of the time, when someone wants to make an image, and app whatever doesn't compile, that person will just kick that app out of the list05:07
wolfspraulit's an app list05:08
wolfspraulthere is no concept of unstable/testing/stable here05:08
wpwrakbut that reference list should be reliable, no ?05:08
wolfspraulif a kernel module doesn't compile, people will just disable it and build the rest05:08
wolfspraulthere are many kernel modules :-)05:08
wolfspraulunless that is a truly essential one that won't even boot the system05:08
wpwraki mean, if i just want to build the whole stuff, i don't really want to have to debug the thing too05:08
wolfspraulpeople deal with this config file the same way05:09
wolfspraulof course if uclibc doesn't build, the image build cannot proceed05:09
wolfspraulbut if yacas doesn't built, it's just set to 'N' for this time05:09
wolfspraulwhat is 'whole stuff'?05:09
wpwraksure, people can work around this. but why is it a benefit if they have to ?05:09
wpwrakwell, build the "standard system"05:10
wolfspraulwe may need different config files05:10
wolfspraulok, I described the xbboot system to you05:10
wolfspraulthat one is easy05:10
wolfspraulthe smaller the better05:10
wolfspraulrescue tools05:10
wolfspraulthen we need a factory image05:10
wpwrakxboot config may not change all that often anyway05:10
wolfspraulthat one should include all meaningful ben nanonote apps05:10
wpwrakyup, that one05:11
wolfsprauldon't you see that if you don't commit first, and then remove apps that don't build, the config file will simply never get updated?05:11
wolfspraulbecause, big surprise, it will always work, nothing will ever break05:11
wolfspraulonly that all apps are missing :-)05:11
wpwrakwhat's wrong with updating it after testing ?05:11
wolfspraulhow do you want to break out of this circle?05:11
wolfspraulyes, but people work on apps one by one05:11
wolfspraulthe problem is that they never get turned on in the config file05:12
wpwrakmake a "testing" variant and a "tested" variant05:12
wpwrakthose who just want a build take the tested variant. those who don't mind debugging the latest config take the untested one. xiangfu seems to do the full build regularly anyway, so there is a process for pushing the untested to the tested version.05:13
wpwrakare you saying that people working on apps don't cross-compile them themselves with "make" but use openwrt as their IDE ?05:14
wpwrakplease, not that insanity again :)05:14
wolfspraulI think this idea will successfully reduce the commits into both variants, because now people will be unsure which one to commit to.05:14
wolfspraulthe config file is just an app list05:14
wpwraka makefile is also a list of object files :)05:15
wolfspraulwhenever someone works on an app, and gets that app to work, the last step is to enable the app in the config file05:15
wolfspraulwhen someone builds an image later, and out of 20 apps 17 build, and 3 break, then those 3 need to be removed (set to 'N') at that point.05:15
wpwrakand it doesn't matter what the config file is. the issue is that it can break.05:15
wpwrakso you say there's no build process that can be trusted to work, and that's even intentional ?05:16
wolfspraulthe other way round. when someone completes work on an app, they know it builds. why would they not set the app to 'Y' in the app list now?05:17
wolfspraulbecause they don't trust the build process in general?05:17
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [poke] remove BROKEN, update to r5975 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/807277d05:17
wolfsprauland even though it works on their own system now, they just keep it disabled?05:17
wpwrakthe use scenario i have in mind is someone who just wants to have a reasonably up to date system05:17
wpwrakthey probably disable the rest locally to get a faster build05:18
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok good, which use case do you have in mind?05:18
wolfspraulsomeone wants to make a new image, why?05:18
wolfspraulI have two in mind right now, xbboot and factory default.05:18
wpwrakto get new things. features and fixes. update the system from time to time.05:18
wolfspraulwhy wouldn't they just reflash from the published images?05:18
wolfspraul(actually I hope we can move to upgrades via packages, but that's another story...)05:19
wolfspraulwe are talking about a config file here that defines which apps are included when that config file is used05:19
wolfspraulan app list05:19
wolfspraulwe can have multiple app lists05:19
wpwrak(from images) well, there's admittedly that option. makes them quite blind, though.05:19
wolfspraulyes sure, so they want to compile from source05:19
wolfspraulbut why?05:19
wolfspraulif they want to compile the exact same image they had on their device, they can check /etc/VERSION and get the matching config file which is always kept right next to the image file anyway05:20
wolfspraultotally outside the revision control system05:20
wpwraksource build is also so far the only way to get a toolchain05:20
wolfspraulso we are not talking about that case05:20
wolfspraultrue, we need to look into that (toolchain), but what does that have to do with the config file?05:20
wpwrak(matching config file) ah, okay. so there _is_ a place for the "tested" config05:21
wolfspraulit's not a default config file, it's just a config file at a place in the tree where it needs to be (can be) manually taken from05:21
wpwrak(toolchain) the config file is still necessary for the openwrt build, no ?05:21
wpwrakat least that's how i understood the build process05:21
wolfspraulyes it selects the target too05:22
wolfspraulone sec look here05:22
wolfspraulthat's a released image05:22
wolfspraulthe config file that was used to create this image is right there with it, together with all other things that hopefully make it possible to recreate this exact image05:22
wpwrakalright. that one has a config. good :)05:23
wolfspraul(although I have never tried and I thnk it's hard with all the many versions updates everywhere)05:23
wolfspraulso in a way, that's the 'tested' config you talked about before05:23
wolfspraulyou are right, thinking about toolchain05:23
wolfspraulbut it's painful that someone has to build all factory default apps only to get the toolchain05:23
wpwrakokay, looks good then05:23
wpwrak(toolchain) indeed05:23
wolfspraulwe could have a config file config.base05:24
wolfspraulor config.toolchain05:24
wpwrakand even worse if they have to fix any config glitches :)05:24
wolfspraulof course, total nonsense05:24
wpwrakhow about making a toolchain tarball, like we had at openmoko ? i think that one worked rather nicely05:24
wolfspraulbut I am talking about the app list in the factory images, and our very painful process of ever getting that app list to grow to include all useful apps05:24
wolfspraulwhich at the current speed will not happen for decades :-)05:24
wpwrak(app list) is it really that bad ? isn't it just those ~10 hours it takes xiangfu to build the image ?05:25
wolfspraulyes but we are committing config file updates too slowly (this is how this discussion started)05:26
wolfspraulI think apps must be enabled in the config file at the same time the (working) app Makefile is commited05:26
wolfspraulotherwise why work on the app? and who will later remember to enable that app?05:26
wolfspraulit can't work, already proven for x months now05:26
wolfspraulxiangfu actually has a quite powerful machine, if it's only 10 hr for the whole thing that's quite good05:27
wolfspraulso what's the solution now? we have realized that there are in fact 'stable/tested' config files, together with the released images05:27
wpwrak(who gets to enable the app) ok, i see what you mean.05:27
wolfspraulwe may rename that 'config' file to 'config.factory_default'?05:28
wolfsprauland change the commit policy into that config file to 'first set to Y when app is committed, then remove when it breaks'?05:28
wolfspraulcreate another config file for a base/empty system, maybe for people who only want the toolchain?05:29
wpwrakand the build instructions have a "stable" config, correct ? (http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Building_Software_Image)05:29
wolfspraul(there may be better ways to do this in OpenWrt, have to check)05:29
Ornotermesi have added CC BY-SA for all my nanonote related pictures now: http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=2616 and http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=285605:30
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes it points to the stable/tested one05:31
wolfspraulwhich is correct05:31
wolfspraulOrnotermes: nice. your pictures are great, I really like them.05:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: okay, perfect then05:34
Ornotermeswolfspraul: thanks! :)05:35
wpwrakso the config in git is really meant to be "unstable at all times", but we have a nice and tested one as well.05:35
wolfspraulyou can see it like that05:36
wolfspraulI think we should rename it to config.factory_default05:36
wpwraki was missing that last point. that works then. thanks for explaining :)05:36
wolfspraulah thanks for pointing out the loose ends05:36
wolfsprauland encourage people to enable their apps in config.factory_default if they think it should be included in every NanoNote05:37
wpwrakhmm, "factory default" sounds a bit like "fall back to minimum", which isn't the case here05:37
wolfspraulok then what?05:37
wpwrakfull_system ? just full ?05:38
wpwrak"factory" may also scare people05:38
wolfspraultrue, I thought about that too. so config.full_system ?05:38
wpwraksounds good to me05:38
wolfspraulalright, great05:38
wolfspraullet me see what the easiest way is to build just the toolchain05:39
wolfspraul(we can still offer a binary toolchain, that's separate)05:39
wpwrakyou don't like the tarball idea ?05:39
wolfspraulthere are 2 options in OpenWrt05:39
wpwrakah. you anticipated the question :)05:39
wolfspraul"Build the OpenWrt SDK"05:40
wolfspraul"Build the OpenWrt based Toolchain"05:40
wolfspraulironically, both seem to be OFF in our config files :-)05:40
wolfspraulmaybe the toolchain is automatically built as a dependency? or the "OpenWrt based Toolchain" is something else?05:40
wolfspraulneed to find out...05:40
wpwraksounds interesting :) the toolchain is built and stays around with the "standard" build, so that works05:51
wolfspraulwhich standard build?05:52
wolfspraulI just built the SDK, it created a 25 MB .tar.bz2 file05:52
wolfspraulhmm, the SDK just seems to be a tarball of part of the OpenWrt tree. I am wondering whether it is not even better to tarball the entire OpenWrt tree then, including everything downloaded and pre-built as in the full_system image?06:02
wolfspraulthat will be bigger in MB, but maybe a faster starting point?06:03
wolfspraulwe are really talking about speed to get started with the various options. build everything from source, toolchain. Or download a tarball with toolchain binaries, and maybe also full_system sources and binaries all included?06:03
wolfspraulthat's a couple hundred MB download probably06:04
wolfspraulor direct people to always start with git, then compile everything from source?06:04
wolfspraulpersonally I'm not a big fan of pre-built binaries (although I run Debian, not Gentoo)06:05
wolfspraulwpwrak: what do you think? what should we offer?06:05
Ornotermesif you are going to make big files, use bittorrent as an alternative download source06:06
wolfspraulif I select that second option 'OpenWrt based Toolchain', it gives me a 15 MB tarball containing just the toolchain I think06:10
kristianpauldone duilding date command fail :p06:41
kristianpaulBtw i noticed NanoMap is working now, i'll try test it with my non.free gps later06:42
kyakwell i noticed quite the opposite, that NanoMap is no longer working :)06:44
kristianpauli dint test it in the last-lastest image from xiangu06:50
kristianpaulbut the lsat that the flash script isntal me had nanomap, i jut said wow !06:51
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, seem interesting....does nanomap works with Xorg?06:58
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: nope fb as i now07:03
kristianpaulas openwrt dont work with fb and X and same time07:03
kyakwell, it can work in X. too07:03
kyakif we had X07:04
kyakat least it works on my laptop just fine07:04
wolfspraulwell my feeling is that the OpenWrt SDK is a better starting point for people who want to port an app, and not start with the entire openwrt tree and build from scratch07:29
wolfspraulbetter than the plain 'OpenWrt Toolchain' which is missing libraries, if I see this right07:30
wolfspraulso maybe we should publish this .tar.bz2 SDK tarball along with the images?07:30
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: rename the config to config.full_system http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/49ac81808:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: toolchain plus the essential libraries sounds good, yes08:27
wolfspraulI think we will publish both first, then ask what people like, then remove what they don't want08:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: the definiion of "essential" can differ, of course :)08:28
wolfspraulI want to publish as few options as possible, because the problem is that the quality of documentation may matter more than what binaries are available for download somewhere08:28
wolfspraulif the documentation quality is junk, people will get lost in all the lousy documented options08:29
wolfspraulso rather have fewer options that are better documented and linked to08:29
wolfspraulbut let's start with both, then remove one after a few weeks08:29
wpwrakyes, people who want to get started will prefer not to have to have too many choices08:30
wpwrakOrnotermes: power to the board now seems to work, but when switching it on, there seems to be enough inrush current to crash the ben :-(08:59
wpwrakOrnotermes: and there's an interaction with the kernel driver, too: when it detects the card, it tries to power it up, which then of course also kills the system08:59
wpwrakOrnotermes: i don't think 33 mA or so should really be a problem. let's see what's really going on there ...09:00
Ornotermeswpwrak: how mych can the voltage regulator supply?09:25
kristianpaulwhat is included in a openwrt SDK?09:52
wolfspraulthere is a total of three options 1) toolchain 2) sdk 3) image builder09:54
wolfspraulI think basically they include more and more of the entire tree09:54
wolfspraultoolchain is just the cross-compiler09:54
wolfspraulI think you can only compare simple binaries with that09:55
wolfspraul'sdk' includes a lot more, libraries from the device rootfs, package making tools?09:55
wolfspraulimage builder contains even more, I think basically all binaries that appear in the image, so you can make a modified image without rebuilding anything that was already in the image before09:55
wolfspraulI think we will just publish all three options, and then find out what people use, and remove the unused ones09:56
wolfspraulyou can always do the 'gentoo style' and get the source tree from git, and build it all from scratch09:56
wolfsprauljust takes a bit longer, couple hours maybe 1 day, depending on your machine09:56
wolfspraulthis is my understanding right now, if I'm wrong please let me know09:57
kristianpaulyeah also i must be skilled in openwrt packaging wich is not so hard but takes time09:59
kristianpaulhope thereare package makign tools in that :)10:00
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: select ImageBuilder, Toolchain, SDK http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/4c4035c10:10
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: enable the IPV6 option http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1566c3b10:10
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: include [sox] and [poke] http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/19ee48510:10
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: switch uClibc 0.9.30 to 0.9.32 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/2af418310:10
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: include qt4-* package http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/b9f0c0010:10
kristianpaulsox good :)10:14
kristianpaulThis is getting better every day :)10:15
bartbesthat is what I'm liking10:16
bartbesbtw, about pke10:16
bartbesI imagine it's like the c64 poke10:16
bartbesbut.. are there any fixed mem addresses?10:16
kristianpaulwolfspraul: one missing SDK is i think a easy (not bloated) way of UI design for some usefull software like sox that lacks one10:16
kristianpauli guess others are in the same state10:17
kristianpaulthere is SDL toolkit or SDK? :)10:19
wolfspraulwe just have to make sure that sox doesn't drag in patented codecs10:20
wolfspraulit was in a while ago, then we kicked it out, so let's see now...10:21
kristianpaulgood point (as always)10:21
kristianpauli never used10:21
Action: bartbes got ignored10:21
kristianpaulbartbes: no no :)10:21
kristianpaulbartbes: wpwrak will read the log eventually :)10:21
wolfspraulthe sox Makefile looks good. looks like we removed libmad, lame, etc. when the non-patented flag is on10:24
kristianpaulQT have a IDE, not sure how bloated is..10:24
wolfsprauldoes anybody know why we don't include ffmpeg in the openwrt images?10:25
bartbeskristianpaul: QtCreator.. well, it's pretty heavy, but it's nice10:31
kristianpaulbartbes: i dont care is heavy at the time of design, i care most about the final result10:32
Ornotermeswolfspraul: might be something like patents maybe?10:32
kristianpaulbartbes: what's your experience with it?10:32
bartbesI am not sure how the ide would change that10:32
bartbesif the code is the same, why would the ide matter?10:33
kristianpaulwolfspraul: probaly as i use it at home to convert some patented format to free ones.10:33
kristianpaulbartbes: ahh no matter then :)10:33
wpwrakOrnotermes: 600 mA, if the source (USB or battery) provides that10:41
Ornotermeswpwrak: try to switch off the screen and see if it powers down then too10:42
wpwrakbartbes: you need jz4740_pm.pdf for the addresses10:44
wpwrakbartbes: (of the cpu register, that is)10:45
bartbesand how do I obtain that?10:45
wolfspraulOrnotermes: yes but we can configure all patented codecs out of it, that still leaves valuable functionality I would think10:45
bartbesand what can I do with them?>10:45
wolfspraulbartbes: I will email it to you (if you want)10:45
tuxbrain2mmm ffmpeg without mpeg :P10:46
wpwrakOrnotermes: i'm running just the bare board, no screen attached10:46
tuxbrain2coffe without caffein10:46
Ornotermeswolfspraul: then i think that should be another package name, like ffmepg-free so user can install the real deal without problems10:47
Ornotermeswpwrak: ah, then it's harder :P10:48
kristianpaultuxbrain2: use it to convert ogv to ogv for jlime for example :)10:48
kristianpauli dint tried yet jsut saying :)10:49
Ornotermeswpwrak: what happens if you connect the load between main +V3.3 and VSS?10:49
wpwrakOrnotermes: haven't tried that yet. right now i'm looking at the dynamic behaviour.10:50
wpwraki'm optimistic - don't want to do tests that could only prove that it's impossible ;-)10:50
tuxbrain2convert video inside nano itself? well in case of emergency maybe but better do it on the host pc, isn't it?10:51
kristianpaultuxbrain2: ahh yes sorry inside nano no10:51
Ornotermeswpwrak: what kind of power does it use without any extra loads?10:51
wpwraktuxbrain2: must be a very slow emergency ;-)10:51
kristianpaultuxbrain2: yeah performance is other issue with10:51
bartbeswpwrak: hehe10:52
wpwrakOrnotermes: dunno. my USB current probe cable doesn't work with the Ben :-(10:52
kristianpaulthats sounds crazier that coffe without coffe, so now make sense this10:52
Ornotermesi guess you don't want to carve the trace of the VDD either? :P10:53
tuxbrain2I have convert some videos to jlime using mencoder10:53
kristianpaultuxbrain2: ogv?10:54
tuxbrain2no ogv no way for now10:54
kristianpaulyeah :(10:54
tuxbrain2unable to reproduce even in the most low and small resolution10:54
tuxbrain2rafa has some hope on a demo ogv player included in theora libraries, it works but must be developed to include some kinkd of playcontrol10:57
wpwrakOrnotermes: oh, there is a TP with VDD on the board. but one thing at a time :)10:59
bartbesurandom__: now I'm playing snake all day.. :@11:01
kristianpaulany one know agood logic siffer sofware client that DO NOT REQUIRE JAVA :(11:03
kristianpauli cant make this sump work, and i installed rxtx already11:03
urandom__bartbes you better work at font rendering for nlove :P11:04
kristianpaulhmm may be i can plug gnuplot to the seria port11:05
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: your gnuplot in the bug reads a file or the port directly?11:05
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, hi11:06
GNUtoo|laptopgnuplot didn't run on the bug11:06
GNUtoo|laptopbasically I did it that way11:06
urandom__but yeah snake is the kind of game that never gets boring11:06
GNUtoo|laptopbug->serial->eeepc->gnuplot on eeepc11:06
GNUtoo|laptopthat's because poky for bug was really outdated11:06
GNUtoo|laptopI didn't want to port gnuplot on it11:06
GNUtoo|laptopbut with bug 2.0 this problem will be solved11:07
GNUtoo|laptopor I could backport bug 2.0 software to bug 1.x11:07
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: can you sahre pulbi the bug->serial->eeepc->gnuplot code somwhere?11:08
GNUtoo|laptopit's public11:08
GNUtoo|laptopit's on the wiki11:08
GNUtoo|laptopit's the python code11:08
kristianpaulah ok11:08
GNUtoo|laptopbasically the gnuplot bindings were too slow11:08
GNUtoo|laptopthat's why I used that11:08
kristianpaulbug wiki i guess?11:08
GNUtoo|laptopalso the app is published in the app part of buglabs wiki11:09
GNUtoo|laptopbut it's written in java11:09
GNUtoo|laptopbut you can see the sources11:09
GNUtoo|laptopit uses that11:09
GNUtoo|laptopsimply re-do it in python11:10
kristianpauli think i will need it faster11:10
kristianpauland learn11:10
urandom__oh and bartbes in case you didnt notice: press p to pause ;)11:14
bartbesI did not..11:14
Action: bartbes facepalms11:14
urandom__are you using wasd or arrow keys to move it?11:15
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, the wifi cafee closes soon11:15
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, what do you want to do exactly?11:21
GNUtoo|laptopyou've a got an von-hippel module without the bug device?11:21
GNUtoo|laptopif so I wrote a howto that permit you to write code faster than when trying to read the full specs11:22
GNUtoo|laptopit's not so java-specifc11:22
bartbesurandom__: 2 things about snake11:24
bartbes1 it should keep record of the longest length you had, not the last11:24
bartbes2 don't spawn 'apples' *in* the snake11:25
urandom__1 the love version of snake has an highscore and all, i just wait for font rendering11:26
urandom__i used to have an snake game where is spawned apples in the snake, not sure how ist was in the original one11:27
urandom__now time for some rl11:28
wpwraktuxbrain2: thanks for the address !11:37
tuxbrain2wpwrak: I'm searching for alternative to ups, I will keep you informed11:38
wpwraktuxbrain2: ah, okay. if all else fails, we can still use EMS. they're not very expensive.11:40
tuxbrain2I got a revelation now than wolfgang is not arround.... NanoNotes series must evolve to have touchscreen11:46
wpwraktuxbrain2: how did you realize that ? :)11:48
tuxbrain2I have created a pdf with history of the band for Nanowar edition, and I have in the screen the picture of the four albums , .... so I have start to thinking if this instead of a pdf was and html... and I found my self touching the pics to know more about... I we want than NanoNote series to become a handy information repo, so then Mister Obvious apears and tells to me we must mantain the keyboard for the searches and include a touch screen to navi11:51
tuxbrain2I we want-> If we want11:52
wpwrakhehe ;-) good reasoning. i agree that we need something better than just keys.11:52
wpwraknot sure if a touch screen would be very difficult to get, though11:52
wpwraka plan B could be to have a sensor array on the right side of the display. that way, one could display soft buttons there.11:53
wpwrakbut yes, a touch screen would be nice to have11:53
tuxbrain2It should not be a hires capacitive , a cheap resistive one should fit11:54
wpwrakand get rid of the function keys :)11:54
wpwraksure. the simpler, the better :)11:54
tuxbrain2ok , end of futuribles , lets continue pinping jlime11:56
wpwrakhehe :)11:57
tuxbrain2btw, Hexen, heretic & Doom,  works like a charm :)11:58
rohtuxbrain2 what are you trying to do? (low-res R-touch)11:58
zeartuxbrain2, dingux versions? or someone ported them to the nanonote?11:58
tuxbrain2well the ones rafa puts on http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/games/11:59
zearlooks like his own ports ;)11:59
zearbtw, i've seen with him in person for the last 4 days ;)12:00
zeara great guy12:00
tuxbrain2He is a fantastic guy12:00
zeardonated him my old dingoo :)12:00
tuxbrain2he loses on NN on the trip :(12:00
zeari know :(12:00
SiENcEzear, i tried the qi gmenu2x version and i have problems adding icons12:04
Action: tuxbrain2 desire a lot bad Nand blocks to the ripper12:04
SiENcEsome appear ...some not12:05
SiENcEis this a known issue?12:05
zearSiENcE, yes, same happens for me12:06
zearfor a weird reason only supertux and bubble dizzy icons work with qi version12:06
zeari reported this bug to mth, so i believe it's a known issue12:07
SiENcEyeah...soem work some not12:08
mthI don't have a good memory; if you want to be sure a bug report is remembered, please put it in the bug tracker12:08
tuxbrain2roh : I was not trying to do anything, just an obvious revelation than I want to share by chat... a kind of procrastination to avoid some work a have done before (so boring)12:15
tuxbrain2once finished , the next funny thing will be to reproduce the "knight rider" BNN , the 3V3 blue leds have arrived today :)12:17
mthSiENcE: can you find anything pattern among the PNGs regarding image dimensions and true color vs indexed?12:23
mthwhat happens with icons that are not displayed correctly? do they display incorrectly, do they not display at all or are they replaced by the default gear icon?12:24
wpwraktuxbrain2: ah, there's an idea :)12:25
tuxbrain2wpwrak: what idea12:29
wpwraktuxbrain2: to use blue LEDs12:30
Ornotermesblue leds is over rated :P12:44
bartbesurandom__: guess what just successfully ran?12:44
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: New version of nlove (0.0.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ef090fa12:47
tuxbrain2Ornotermes: not more than rgb ones :P12:50
Ornotermestuxbrain2: fading lights is kind of pretty, but just blie is kind of hard on the eyes12:51
Ornotermesi have a kind of green leds i really like12:52
Ornotermesi think they are based on phosporecense (in the same way white leds does)12:53
Ornotermeshttp://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=2751 ah, i had a pic :)12:53
bartbeshow do I quit mc?12:54
tuxbrain2I didn't kwow there were such passion on led colours :)12:58
bartbeshow do I do f12?12:58
tuxbrain2I just bought the blues due it where the cheaper 3v3 option :P12:59
tuxbrain2must leave c u later12:59
bartbesI killed it13:05
bartbesleft my tty broken though13:05
bartbesbtw, what packages are built on qi-hardware?13:15
qmasterr1 13:16
bartbesthat was very informative13:17
bartbesI see 2 spaces?13:17
bartbes1 actuall13:17
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, what was your project with my bug stuff?13:20
GNUtoo|laptop(the more details you know the better you can help)13:20
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop:  i need to do some logic analizer basic program with the nanonote13:24
GNUtoo|laptopso you don't need my java part right?13:24
GNUtoo|laptopjust the python part13:24
kristianpaulnope just python right13:25
kristianpaulor whatever it draw mea  pulso on screen13:26
kristianpaulif is not done i will do anyway13:26
kristianpaulwhy the last xburst-tool is asking me for mipsel-openwrt-linux-gcc ?14:14
kristianpauldamm i cant compile the whole openwrt-xburst, will take ages on my mipsel latop..14:14
kristianpauli must14:16
kristianpaulthat will hurt14:16
kristianpaulbut why??14:17
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, mipsel laptop,nice14:34
GNUtoo|laptopI bet the same than stallman?14:34
bartbesis it binary compatible too?14:35
qi-bot[commit] kyak: stardict actually depends on gtk2 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/dbd4afd15:36
qi-bot[commit] kyak: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/4ee7a7515:36
Textmodemorning all15:41
TextmodeI'm still getting errors with opkg on jlime.16:22
Textmode"*** glibc detected *** pkg: double free or corruption (out): 0x00419368 *** Aborted"16:23
rafaTextmode: do you have swap?17:33
Textmoderafa: if I'm reading this right, a bit under 2gb of swap.17:34
Textmode(overhead, i guess)17:34
rafaTextmode: have you installed beta3? have you read the changelog and announce of beta3?17:34
rafaTextmode: so you run free and swap says?17:35
Textmodesince I've never heard of beta317:35
rafaTextmode: ah.. you have an old version of jlime17:35
Textmodestill though, should it really be out-right dying?17:36
rafaTextmode: how do you follow the news about soft? just curious17:36
Textmodeabout what?17:36
rafawe announced on jlime mailing list and qi mailing list17:36
rafathe beta317:36
rafaTextmode: with swap on you should not get that problem17:37
rafamaybe something more .. if you want we can help you.. Please report the problem with specific details about your system, either jlime forums or jlime ml17:37
TextmodeI'll propbably just upgrade.17:39
Textmodeor try something else (no offence, ofcause. but I might as well try all thats out there)17:40
rafaTextmode: it seems that debian is working really cool now. I read somethin on ml today17:40
TextmodeBeen meaning to look at NN-debian, good -a next stop as any.17:41
rafaTextmode: you should instll latest versions of different linux OS for nn and tell us which one you like more ;)17:42
Textmodenot sure my bandwidth is up to doing that fast enough to make it current.17:42
tuxbrainlakernel -> pachy? :) a very common name in vasque territory :)18:09
tuxbrainthere is a said here that: A vasque can born wherever it want :), it still a vasque18:11
tuxbrainit ->he18:11
TextmodeIts going to be one of those days, I can tell.18:12
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: dont now if same18:30
GNUtoo|laptopkristianpaul, hi18:30
kristianpaulbut i wish i could compile things faster18:31
kristianpaulbut seems cross compile is even faster18:31
kristianpaulnot sure18:31
kristianpauli meant cross compile for mipsel18:31
kristianpaulmay me Xbusrt SoC can achive more speed in the coming years18:32
GNUtoo|laptopah ok18:35
kristianpaulGNUtoo|laptop: if i could i will replace my AMD for a dual cored fast mipsel but i need it for binary compatible with Xilinx devel tools18:35
GNUtoo|laptopwhat about sparc cpu?18:39
GNUtoo|laptopnot compatible either with that proprietary stuff I bet18:39
kristianpaulis just a bit non-free but means a lot for next years of copyleft hardware18:40
kristianpaulmay be evetually fpga will got free sintesis sofware18:40
GNUtoo|laptopyes I know18:45
GNUtoo|laptopaltough if I ever use that I would need another computer only for it or something like that18:45
GNUtoo|laptopand that's not great18:45
pachykristianpaul, heh, why don't you start writing it? it will not happen by itself...18:46
kristianpaulpachy: i dont hav e the knowledge for that yet, i think you have more exprience than me on the field18:56
Action: kristianpaul shut mouth about free sistensis tool topic18:57
kristianpaulpachy: not saying you should do it, but other people think same18:59
kristianpauli know you just focused on MM18:59
TextmodeIn my attempts to get the Nano's networking to work with my computer, I seem to have transformed it into some kinda of etherbane, the simple act of hooking up the nanonote now renders the machine unable to properly comprehend the task of using any form of networking.19:13
wpwrakgrmbl. weirdness rules. now even my usb-based ieee 802.15.4 devices have joined the uSD-based one in its strike :-(19:52
Elvashiis anyone awake in here?20:07
mthyes, but you might need a better question to get them to respond ;)20:07
Textmodedoes anyone happen to know the dimentions of the default NN term? its definitely not the standard 80x2521:14
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: Adding LUA tutorials: lua_calls_C1 - lua_calls_C5 http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/7d9b7b821:27
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: Removing jz_test_gpio.c file from lua examples. http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/5a6f0b521:51
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: Enabling Set port and pin in blinker example http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/91fdaa221:51
kristianpaulxiangfu: bad luck i dont know why the image i built dint come with gmenu2x21:54
kristianpauland i guess more stuff21:54
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: Some changes to lua's blink demo http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/d01e4f422:27
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Routing attiny. http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/1e22c5922:28
wpwrakhehe, i see another blinkenlight come along :)23:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: how did the power issues end up?23:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think uSD power has some inrush current issues. i haven't measured the effect on the 3.3V supply directly yet, but all circumstancial evidence points to it operating just about at the limit23:58
wpwrakwolfspraul: good enough for uSD cards, which should be almost no capacitative load, but probably lethal for most SDIO or breakout board type applications23:59
--- Tue Sep 7 201000:00

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