#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2010-09-01

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/usd-card.fpd: renamed "depth" to "push" and increased from 1.3 mm to http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e6fd40b00:04
wpwrakthanks !!00:04
kyakrafa: just try openwrt with setfont2 un-fuzzy-4x8-font.pnm, you'll understand :)00:40
kyakrafa: also, i didn't quite understand what about the colors00:41
kyakxiangfu: hi!00:43
xiangfukyak: Hi00:43
kyakdo you detect any problems with the latest openwrt-xburst image? for example, mkfs.ext2 is not working (it hangs)00:43
kyaki have the same problem with my self-built image and with default latest one00:44
kyakhowever, there was no such problem in 2010-06-15 image00:45
kyaki believe, it could happen after switching to uClibc-0.9.3200:45
kyak(i don't know what else software is affected)00:46
xiangfukyak: yes. maybe. I just checked  mkfs.ext2/3/4 all doesn't work.00:46
xiangfukyak: even "--help"00:46
xiangfukyak: ok. I will write down it in my TODO list. ahh maybe I send one email to openwrt upstream first. see if other people have the same problem.00:47
kyaki tryed now building from scratch (i.e. not only all possible make clean's, but also manually removed staging_dir which is left for some reason). i believe some old libraries could be mixed in00:47
kyakbut i'll be able to flash only in the evening..00:48
kyakxiangfu: thanks!00:48
xiangfukyak: yes. I also try to do that in my PC. "make distclean" :)00:48
kyakmake distclean proved to be nto so clean , too00:49
kyakbuild_dir is not removed00:49
kyakstaging_dir is kept, too00:49
kyakand there's a lot of old stuff in staging_dir/host00:49
kyakopenwrt_xburst dir was 1.5 Gb after make clean's. Then, after i manually removed old things, it was arounf 950 Mb00:50
kyakalso, make distclean removes dl/ dir, which is nonsense00:51
kyakthe most harmless dir00:51
xiangfukyak: yes. I already mv the dl to ..  , but I didn't notice it not remove the staging_dir and build_dir. thanks for the info.00:52
kyakno problem!00:52
xiangfuthen I will "make distclean" then remove those two folders . compile again. if it's fix the mkfs.ext2/3/4 problem.00:52
xiangfuwe need release a new release :)00:53
kyakif this works00:53
xiangfuyes. :) it's need 3 ~ 4 hours compile in my pc.00:53
kyaki left it running for the night, not sure how much it took :) would be great to have some time output by make, too00:54
kyakor just "time make"00:55
xiangfukyak: Hi "make distclean" remove the "stage_dir" and "build_dir" (I just finish the "make distclean")01:02
xiangfukyak: after "make distclean" and "mv dl/ .." . it's only 144M.01:03
kyakxiangfu: hmm01:06
kyaklet me re-check01:06
xiangfukyak: now I am "time make"01:06
kyakxiangfu: also, distclean removes your .config :)01:08
kyakxiangfu: you are right, build_dir and staging_dir are removed01:08
kyak140M now01:08
xiangfuthe dl is 785M. so total is 900+M.01:09
kyaki'll take the default config from data/ and time make01:09
kyak714M    dl01:09
wolfspraulxiangfu: can we keep a second config somewhere to build a xbboot image with some rescue tools only?01:14
wolfspraulfor example in data/qi_lb60/conf/config.xbboot ?01:15
xiangfuwolfspraul: yes. good idea. :)01:16
xiangfuwolfspraul: I will do that today.01:16
kyak2010-09-01 09:15:29 (5,82 MB/s) - «BUILD_LOG» saved [74826600/74826600]01:17
kyakwow, what was that? is qi-hw server in a neighbour house? :)01:17
kyakhm, not really from the BUILD_LOG if mirco had the staging_dir removed..01:18
kyak*not really clear01:18
wolfspraulI am thinking about turning the latest/ symlink on the server back to 0615, not 0826, because 0826 seems to have a number of severe regressions01:19
wolfspraulwhat do you think?01:19
kyakmaybe it needs to be renamed to devel01:21
xiangfuhmm.. I think we keep the latest symlink to 0826. if we found more issue in 0826. it's good for next release.01:21
kyakand the "latest" is official 061501:21
wolfspraulok, xiangfu argues for increasing the pain level :-)01:22
wolfspraulwell then01:22
wolfspraulit's also true...01:22
kyakit's a path of a warrior :)01:22
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [xburst] add default command line for kernel http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/fb4e18001:30
kyakxiangfu: should i ^C the beautiful clean make? :)01:32
xiangfukyak: no need.  we put the command line in uboot. we can change the command when system boot. use uboot-env tools.01:34
kyak@IF 2I FC A@DB?C H5,01:35
kyakhow do we change it?01:35
kyakare you saying it can be changed during runtime?01:36
xiangfukyak: yes.01:45
xiangfuwe have add the uboot-env to 0826 release.01:45
kyakhow to use it?01:46
kyakdoes it take kernel command line from some env variable during flashing?01:46
kyaki'm intersted, because i recently played with qemu-JZ, but without any luck.. basically because our uboot detectes that U key is always pressed for some reason and uboot from qemu-JZ doesn't like our kernel command line01:48
xiangfuthere are two command : fw_printenv  fw_setenv01:51
kyakwhere are those commands?01:54
xiangfuin your nanonote: /usr/sbin/01:57
xiangfufw_setenv is to set the uboot'env.01:58
xiangfuand in uboot's ENV , there is "commandline"01:58
xiangfuafter set we must reboot to make it works.01:58
xiangfuabout the U key. it's hard code to u-boot.01:59
kyakoh, got it now!01:59
xiangfuyou need edit the u-boot source to disable the detect U key.01:59
xiangfuif you set the wrong comandline. we must to connect the NN serial console to fix it.02:00
xiangfupress [S] when poweron. NN will goto u-boot console. then we can fix the u-boot envs.02:00
kyakok, i understand !02:00
kyakxiangfu: are you interested in playing with qemu-JZ?02:02
xiangfukyak: I just don't have enough time to play with qemu-JZ. but I'd like to if I have time02:03
kyakok :)02:07
mthkyak: maybe the GPIO reading of non-connected pins returns the wrong value in qemu-jz?02:51
mtham I right in assuming that non-pressed keys should read in the same way as a non-connected keyboard?02:53
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/stdpass.fpd, originally from gta02-core http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/7ca570103:01
wpwrakmth: have you considered what you'd have to do to dis_connect_ the keyboard ? :-)03:06
mthI have no idea03:08
wpwrak(assuming we're talking about then ben) you'd have to split the pcb in half :)03:09
mthI'm not suggesting to actually disconnect it, just as a though experiment03:10
mthin a matrix keyboard, a non-pressed key reads as a not-connected pin afaik03:10
mthso if the keyboard is not emulated by qemu, all keys should read "not pressed"03:11
mthbut the opposite seems to be the case03:11
mthI had the same problem when emulating the Dingoo (which uses direct GPIO keys, not a matrix keyboard)03:11
wpwrakthought experiment is less scary :) well, the keyboard is integrated into the pcb. so you can't disconnect it. but if a trace was severed, then this would appear as the absence of pressed keys, yes03:12
wpwrakas far as i recall, there are no external pull-ups either03:12
mtheach GPIO can be configured to pull up or not03:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [xburst] build zImage, but not copy to bin/ http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9f9473103:13
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [xburst] add config and README file for build xbboot image http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/1501b0703:13
mthit's possible qemu ignores that setting when reading the GPIO pin03:13
Ornotermeswpwrak: still there?04:06
demonoidHello there! Will usb ethernet card work on nanonote?05:57
zeardemonoid, nanonote has no usb host, so no devices connected to it's usb port will work06:02
demonoidI see. mini-USB 2.0 differs from USB ,right?06:03
zearit's not the issue of mini-USB vs big-USB, it's usb host vs usb slave mode06:06
demonoidHello Ornotermes, what's that?06:10
Ornotermesdemonoid: a microSD breakout board, http://slashhome.se/p/uSD_breakout/06:10
demonoidAh...I just don't understand such geeky stuff06:13
Ornotermesall signals in microSD slot can used as GPIO (Generel Purpose Input/Output), so it can send an recieve almost any digital information06:15
Ornotermesbut usb is probably a bit heavy :P06:16
demonoid@_@... Anyway, there seems to be some sort of usb slave2host converter06:22
Ornotermesdemonoid: where did you find that?06:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: cheers kudos whatever for the last hack/mod :)06:53
kyakmth: it is definitely hardware-related, because qemu-JZ is for some other jz-base board, not specifically for Ben06:55
wpwrakOrnotermes: good morning :) just got up07:45
Ornotermeswpwrak: morning :)07:45
Ornotermesi been up a while, working on my break out board07:46
wpwrakOrnotermes: the little board works quite well. some little issues i found: because it's thicker than uSD, it doesn't go in/out quite as easily. not sure if this is a problem. i may also have accidently deposited some adhesives this way, which would make the problem worse.07:46
Ornotermesso i noticed07:47
wpwrakOrnotermes: the mechanical tolerance for board width is relatively narrow. if it's too small, it won't "click"07:47
Ornotermesit is possible to snd souwn rhe card a little to make it easier to put in/out07:48
Ornotermesdown the*07:48
wpwrakOrnotermes: and you need about 1.4 mm between the edge of the "card" and any ben-facing edge of the outer board, or you can't push it in enough to click. but in think you're using a much bigger margin for this anyway, so not a problem there.07:49
Ornotermesi started out with big margins, i idea was that people other than ben users might be interested07:50
wpwrakOrnotermes: (sand) yup. didn't want to dremel at 3 am, though :) (my mill sits in a sound-proofed box, that it's not so easy to trim the board along the z axis with that one)07:50
wpwrakah yes, good point07:50
wpwraki looked around for the specs of the card holders, but didn't find any that said how much travel this thing really needs07:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: thanks ! :)07:51
wpwraks/that it's/ but it's/07:52
wpwrakneed some caffeine ...07:52
Ornotermesit's getting time to test if the board actually works07:52
Ornotermesi had to do some creative fileing07:52
wpwrakhehe :) hardware hacking in all senses of "hardware" :)07:53
Ornotermesa couple of pads shorted when the card was inserted07:53
wpwrakfor accessing the gpios, you can reuse my "bll" application. http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/bbl07:53
Ornotermesofc :)07:54
wpwrak(shorts) aii ...07:54
Ornotermeswell ateast no magic smoke :)07:57
Ornotermesbut i just reflashed so i have to start by copy som things from my card07:58
wpwrakOrnotermes: i still need to find out if the corners need to be rounded or not. probably a good idea to do it in any case.08:02
Ornotermesi too think its a good idea, it makes less risky when inserting the card08:07
Ornotermesalso, i found it more prectical to bridge ethernet with usb0 on my desktop and let ben get a dhcp adress08:12
wpwrakoh yes. that's the only sane way for communication at the moment. i really wouldn't want to connect ethernet this way. maybe ieee 802.15.408:13
wpwrak(the latter is one of the reasons why i'm so interested in that idea :)08:13
Ornotermesoh, i meant instead the firewall method with static adress between ben and desktop08:14
Ornotermesi would peronally prefer bluetooth to connect my ben wireless08:14
Ornotermesi mean, even lego uses bluetooth08:15
wpwrak(address) aah, i see. well, depends. i like my gadgets to be easily identified. but i'd have to go to dhcp too if i wanted to talk to more than one at a time.08:15
wpwraki've prefer bt, too. but then, even bt has openness problems :-(08:15
wpwrake.g., try to find even the data sheet of an affordable BT module08:16
Ornotermesyeah, but if there were internal usb with a hub it bould use usb bluetooth08:16
wpwrakah, digi-key goodies have reached buenos aires customs :)08:17
wpwrakyes, that it could do. not sure about power efficiency, though. and you'd still want a bit of documentation for all the non-usb things the modules have too.08:17
wpwrakplus, there are some special parameters also via BT that you may want to access. i don't quite remember what it was, but we ran into that problem at openmoko. couldn't determine one of those items.08:19
Ornotermesit could be an idea to try to get a dialog with a company that make bluetooth chips and try to make them to open them08:22
wpwrakgood luck :-)08:22
Ornotermesatleast enough to use them in open source hardware08:22
wpwraki'm quite sure this has been tried before08:23
wpwrakand remember, sharism is a customer who doesn't generate revenue. 1000 units it not even worth hitting "reply".08:24
Ornotermesyeah, but a open enough chip could make a greate impact08:24
kyakOrnotermes: the disadvantage of bridging is that interface has to be put down every time to build a bridge08:25
kyakno very useful when you connect/disconnect Ben often08:26
Ornotermeskyak: really? i have it set up in my network configuration, just plug it in and start ben08:26
kyaktry pinging something, then connect Ben.. you should see your pings momentarily gone08:27
kyakyour bridge is built via udev, when you connect Ben, right?08:28
Ornotermesno, static pridge08:29
kyakhm..ok, maybe.. anyway, i have no problems using NAT on Ben08:29
Ornotermesit's not a "problem" to use NAT but by bridging i have more access to ben from my network08:31
kyaki'd use DNAT for that, if i needed08:32
kristianpaulmorning :)09:55
kristianpaulxiangfu: hey thanks you too for pointing this feature about uart emulation over usb10:04
kristianpaulreally awesome !10:06
kristianpauli wonder what else i can emulate over usb ;D10:07
bartbesI seriously break gmenu2x?11:12
bartbesI had no problems.. and I never heard someone had problems either11:12
bartbesanyway, I would update to the new image11:13
bartbesif sdl wasn't broken11:13
wolfspraulbartbes: yes it's broken. I was already worried it could affect you.11:13
bartbeswell I wouldn't mind messing with gmenu2x, but I compiled my version, ran it on my version of the image11:13
bartbesno problems whatsoever11:14
bartbesI'll try again though11:14
bartbesso, what is the exact problem with SDL anyway?11:14
Action: bartbes updates toolchain11:16
bartbesnanomap, huh?11:16
bartbessounds cool11:16
zearah yeah, i'd have some questions about the nanomap ;)11:18
zearfirst, wht is it exactly? i haven't tried it yet11:18
zearsecond, what libs does it use? SDL perhaps?11:18
zeari'd be interested in porting it to the dingoo, if it runs on sdl and can display offline maps11:19
bartbesyeah, I have no idea either11:19
bartbeswell, if it ran on sdl it wouldn't run on the nanonote atm, would it?11:19
zeari haven't been paying attention to owrt lately, was rather busy with jlime11:19
bartbesI think I know why gmenu2x might crash11:19
zearso we have broken sdl now?11:19
bartbeswolfspraul: do you have the gmenu2x crash too?11:20
wolfspraulbartbes: yes, for example starting dgclock will crash gmenu2x11:21
bartbesI only touched the explorer..11:22
bartbesI thought it was about the explorer anyway11:22
zearbartbes, explorer in the gmenu2x?11:22
bartbesfrom the list:11:22
bartbes>>  - the gmenu2x-explorer is unusable right now - gmenu2x is seg-faulting11:22
bartbes>> immediately - is anybody willing to take care of that?11:22
zearheh, that's not good11:22
bartbesbecause it *sounds* like the default dir doesn't exist11:22
zearwe need gmenu2x soon for open-dingux release11:22
bartbes(though arguably it shouldn't segfault)11:23
zearbartbes, wasn't default set to / ?11:23
bartbes /card11:23
zearit should read default from a config file11:23
zearinstead of being hardcoded11:23
bartbesit's a compile-time define11:23
bartbesbut yeah it should11:23
zearah, so it's good11:23
bartbeswell, I made it more flexible11:24
bartbessomebody already abstracted it11:24
bartbesbut left some of the hardcoded lengths in11:24
bartbesoh no wait11:24
bartbesit's *not* a define11:24
bartbesOH GOD11:24
zearhmm.. wasn't the latest change in 28 days?11:24
bartbesI should really, really fix that11:25
bartbesI thought somebody committed..11:25
bartbeshe told me he was fixing it11:25
zearor there is yet another repo?11:25
bartbesnot that I know of11:25
bartbeshence the conclusion I broke it11:25
zeari thought you were talking about some new changes11:25
bartbesI see11:29
bartbesremoving /card actually causes the segfault11:29
bartbestime to fix it then11:29
bartbesbut how..11:31
bartbesI see where I went wrong11:34
bartbesright, so the segfault should be fixed11:36
bartbesnow the define11:36
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: Fixed segfault when CARD_ROOT didn't exist & added _CARD_ROOT http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/638167411:39
bartbesthere we go11:39
bartbesif there's anything just hilight me11:39
zeargood work man11:39
bartbeswell, the fix fails12:28
bartbesgoing to have to look into it later12:28
wpwrakhehe, the CPU has a bit in the SD/MMC controller called "OUT_OF_RAGE" :-)15:42
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: More fixed for when CARD_ROOT doesn't exist http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/cf9628a16:12
bartbesthat bot is fast!16:12
bartbesI typoed!16:13
wpwrakbartbes: better to have typed and typoed that to never have typed :)16:16
kristianpaulwpwrak: ohhh you wrote the doc for the initrd in Linux !!16:23
wpwrakhmm, did i ? i rememeber writing initrd, but my memory is hazy on documentation. well, a README or so will have been there .. :)16:26
bartbesI hate this segfault16:26
Action: wpwrak hates slow customs. goodies from digi-key are still sitting there. been available for clearance since 1:45 am, almost 16 hours ago :-(16:29
bartbeshave any of you ever seen the gmenu2x error "applet not found"?16:32
bartbesoh wait16:32
bartbesI know16:32
bartbes(gdb) backtrace16:33
bartbes#0  0x2acbe250 in ?? ()16:33
bartbes(that's everything)16:33
kristianpaulwpwrak: yes a initrd.txt sort of REAMDE if you want call it that way :)16:34
bartbesI know why it segfaults16:38
bartbesjust not why it doesn't prevent the situation from happening16:38
kristianpaulbartbes: are you trying last openwrt image?16:39
bartbesI can't16:39
bartbesand won't16:39
bartbesno sdl16:39
kristianpaulah ok16:39
bartbesbut I *am* fixing gmenu2x16:39
kristianpaulyeah :'(16:39
bartbesor at least trying to16:39
bartbesand now I know why it doesn't prevent the segfault too16:40
kristianpaulif fix means re write, go ahead ! ;)16:40
bartbesno rewrites ;)16:40
kristianpaulhehe i know16:40
bartbesnow.. how did I cross-compile..16:41
bartbes(without committing, that is)16:41
bartbesfound it16:45
bartbesthat's why I love the irc logs16:45
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: Automatically switches CARD_ROOT to / when CARD_ROOT doesn't exist http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/5c0534816:52
bartbesit *should* run the code I added17:02
bartbeswait a second..17:03
bartbesI don't see the build dir being updated17:03
bartbes(aka redownloaded)17:03
bartbesthat helps..17:03
bartbeswell *that* helps17:15
bartbesI hate this17:15
bartbesI might have fixed this ages ago!17:15
bartbesnow let's update the Makefile17:15
qi-bot[commit] bartbes: Updated gmenu2x makefile to use newest version http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/6ce326317:17
bartbesand now unrape my toolchain17:17
Action: bartbes is proud of himself17:19
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: working on mass storage http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/61d76aa17:28
wpwrakroh: hmm, is mail.openmoko.org down ?17:41
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/stdpass.fpd: added experimental -M variants for manual soldering that http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/476841d17:50
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Get stdpass from kicad-libs. Added bbl.cmp to make pcbnew happy. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/87f1ae718:08
rohwpwrak hm.. the whole host seems to be down18:48
rohwpwrak chandra is down, seems to be some scheduled rz stuff.18:53
rohmeans: it should be back soon18:54
wpwrakroh: ah, good. thanks !18:55
Ornotermeswpwrak: (bbl) the gpio is controlled by manipulating the memory, right?18:56
wpwrakOrnotermes: the port registers are memory-mapped, yes18:59
Ornotermesgood, i was thinking of controlling the gpio from python19:00
wpwrakOrnotermes: the concept they use is interesting: you don't write values directly to the registers but you have a set and a clear register. each 1 you write to the set register gets set, each 1 you write to the clear register gets cleared. that way, there can be no conflicts with read-modify-write instructions19:00
uncloudedthis stuff is fantastic.  what about shipping a uSD breakout with every Ben?19:00
wpwrakOrnotermes: hmm, i once tried to do these things on the ben with python and i found that the mmap didn't quite work. not sure whether this was just my installation or not, though. so if it doesn't work, you may want to strace it to see if mmap is really called with the correct arguments.19:02
wpwrakOrnotermes: if i recall properly, the one i had trouble with was the address. i think it got shifted or such.19:02
Ornotermesunclouded: could be cool with a "hacker pack" that has several other hacking tools too (usb-uart converter and other stuff)19:03
Ornotermeswpwrak: it is worth giving a try, especially since the whole python thing is more beginner friendly19:05
uncloudedwpwrak: nice source: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/bbl/bbl.c  easy to read19:07
wpwrakOrnotermes: yup. well, if it doesn't work and you can figure out why, you'll have done mankind yet another great favour :)19:08
wpwrakunclouded: thanks :) needs a bit more comments on the registers, though. i did it in a bit of a hurry :)19:09
uncloudedit's really useful having something short enough to read in one go that gives a demonstration of how to drive the SDIO pins.  that's what I meant to say19:10
uncloudedjust need to remove the comment about "command line parsing", which is confusing19:12
wpwrakunclouded: ah yes, that's actually one of the ideas behind making it :)19:12
wpwrakoh :)19:12
wpwraki'll do a bit of spring cleaning after dinner19:13
rohwpwrak btw: about the microchip enc28j60 stuff... spare yourself the pain19:21
rohthat stuff sucks and dies if you cough a bit on the ethernet19:21
rohmy current way of putting ip on avr's is using the serial and speaking zbus19:22
wpwrakroh: heh. i have no plan whatsoever to connect that thing to ethernet :)19:32
wpwrakroh: but this little connector should also be enough to put ieee 802.15.4 there :)19:32
rohwhich connector?19:40
wpwrakthe microsd, with a little pcb inside, and bit-banging it19:41
rohmy point is only: the enc thingie is crap. not worth the work. falls over and deadlocks a lot in realworld ethernet segments19:41
rohthere is nothing to bitbang which makes sense.19:41
wpwrakmaybe post that to the list for those who might want to try that ether thing19:41
rohalso its not unusual nowadays to have atleast singledigit, if not even 2 digit mbits of multicast load on a ethernetsegment, even at home19:41
wpwrak(bitbang) the at86rf230 doesn't speak sd/sdio/mmc and the ben's mmc engine can't speak spi. so bitbang it is19:42
rohmakes this thing not only saturate the phy, but also deadlock. it seems it deadlocks a lot.19:42
rohmeans: it doesnt even recover from a saturated phy19:42
wpwrak(mcast) ah, interesting. i don't think i have any on my net :)19:43
rohand its not that it wouldnt have mac-addr and multicast filters.19:43
rohwpwrak what do you think they use for iptv? ;)19:43
rohtcom-vdsl is multicast. you send group-joins and then get the traffic routed through your dsl line.19:44
wpwrakno iptv here :)19:44
rohsame here. but we got a hw-mpeg encoder on our cnc mill machine with a robot-cam19:45
rohgenerates 8-10mbit multicast19:45
rohin the end its much easier to use a serial and let something else handle ethernet.19:47
rohif one wants 'ip connectivity' and not neccessarily 'ethernet'19:47
rohwpwrak you would like zbus: http://www.ethersex.de/index.php/ZBus_Protocol19:48
rohdead simple19:49
rohabout the at86rf230.. bitbanging doesnt sound that bad... or is the chip that fast on datarate?19:50
wpwraknaw, data rate is 250 kbps. maximum spi speed (from buffer) is 8 Mbps.19:51
rohdoesnt sound so bad.19:53
rohdoes the ingenic cpu have no spi at all? or is the limitation to 'no spi' only for the mmc engine?19:54
wpwrakit has spi, bit it's blocked by the keyboard on the ben19:56
wpwrakalso, you can't have the spi engine on the mmc pins19:57
wpwrak(unless you connect them in some way, of course)19:57
wpwrakso for connecting boards to the uSD connector of the ben, it's bit-banging19:57
rohok.. old problem.. keyboard suckage19:57
wpwrakor hardware that speaks SD/SDIO/MMC :)19:58
wpwrakyeah, the choice of signals for the keyboard is pretty much pessimal, if this word existed in english :)19:59
wpwrakactually .. it does. just has a different meaning :)19:59
Ornotermesi'm back20:01
Ornotermesa microcontroler sdio - spi converter would be so cool :)20:02
wpwrakOrnotermes: you could probably do it with a psoc3/5 and the little cpld inside20:04
Ornotermesi think that would be a bit over my head for now :P20:06
Ornotermesi use AVRs20:07
wpwrakconsider it an opportunity to lean something new :)20:08
wpwrakalas, these chip still aren't in production. they've been available for evaluation only for more than a year now. not sure what's keeping them.20:08
wpwrakso it's still possible that they won't really make it to the market. that would be a pity.20:09
Ornotermesthere is atleast eval kits to buy20:09
wpwrakbtw, one very nice thing about uSD is that there's also a clock output there (the SD/MMC clock). just what i need for ieee 802.15.4 ;-)20:10
wpwrakshould be able to multiplex miso and mosi over a single data line (the transceiver seems to support such a thing). so even the small number of signals shouldn't be a big issue.20:12
wpwrakroh: does your food come when you call it ? :)20:17
rohnah.. was fetching it outside20:18
wpwrakgrr. mail still down :-(20:18
wpwrakroh: (food) ah, good old hunter and gatherer style :)20:18
rohberlin is great. <300m and choice of food20:20
Ornotermeswpwrak: but i think a cheap avr might be good enough to convert SDIO to SPI or I2C20:20
wpwrakOrnotermes: sdio is a bit tricky. you need to synchronize with the master clock and you have to be prepared to receive any time.20:22
Ornotermeswhat is the clock frequency?20:23
wpwrakOrnotermes: but if the SD/MMC clock is slow enough and you have short response time, then why not20:23
wpwrakOrnotermes: you could pick your own20:23
wpwrakOrnotermes: there's a "standard" minimum speed (dunno how much), but in this case, you can of course ignore that20:24
Ornotermesif it used max transfer(20Mbit/s) and 4bits it should be 5MHz?20:25
rohgo down to less and a pcint on a avr at 20mhz should be enough20:26
rohlike.. 2-3mhz20:26
uncloudedcan the uSD breakout be used to talk SPI directly?20:27
Ornotermesyes, but 20MHz @ 3.3V can be a bit problematic20:27
wpwrakunclouded: with bit-banging, yes20:28
uncloudedOrnotermes: are you thinking of something like a gateway between bit-banged SPI on the uSD breakout to I2C via an ATmega8 or similar?20:31
Ornotermesunclouded: no, i'm thinking of a SDIO to SPI (or I2C) interfece20:32
Ornotermesso ben can use the accelerated SDIO interface20:33
uncloudedOrnotermes: oh I see: you're going to make something that appears as an SDIO device?20:33
Ornotermesi don't know if i'm really going to make it, but i'm thinking a bit about it20:34
rohsounds like a job for a really small cpld20:35
Ornotermesthat would probably be the best yes, but on the other hand most AVRs is capable to bit bang usb :P20:37
wpwrakroh: mail is still down :-( let's hope the machine didn't burst into flame or something ...20:40
rohme too. gismo mentioned something about 'rz move' ... i guess they carry aall machines over20:40
wpwrakroh: wolfgang posted something about a major downtime (~9 hours) of the qi-hw machines in about two weeks.20:42
wpwraksep 19 to 20.20:42
rohyeah. gismo said also something about 'was a different date'20:43
wpwrakmaybe it's our turn tonight then. or the machine just decided it was a good general timeframe to die :)20:46
rohlets hope not20:49
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Cleaned up bbl.c and added comments. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1f509de20:52
Ornotermeshttp://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdcard/pls/ if anyone is interested in the "simplified" SD specs20:56
wpwraknot much meat on the mechanical side there :-(20:56
Ornotermesoh well, i have to sleep21:04
Ornotermesgood night21:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, how open can we discuss features of the various ingenic cpus, especially those of the jz4760 ?21:29
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw2, do you know the dsv (data sheet viewer) system i use in ben-wpan ? (a successor of the one in gta02-core)21:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: 4760, I think we can discuss openly, why not. There is not that much to discuss anyway.21:42
wpwrakgreat. things like the number of SDIO units or what other peripheral blocks are there. nothing fancy, i agree. just wanted to be sure they didn't explicitly ask you to keep all this secret or such.21:44
larscjz4760 = more of everything ;)21:44
wolfspraulmy passion is not around such chips anyway, they are just temporary stepping stones.21:44
wpwraklarsc: yeah, it's a bit of a wet dream come true :)21:45
wpwraklarsc: e.g., 3 SD/MMC units. wow.21:45
wolfspraulwell when I started to work with Ingenic my hope was that their engineering would be so bad that they couldn't do major upgrades that would destroy our GPL work.21:45
wolfspraulso by now, larsc has been doing phantastic work on the Linux kernel side. Now let's see whether Ingenic holds their part of the teamwork.21:46
wolfspraulin other words - how easy it will be to support the 4760...21:46
wolfspraulI will try to explain to Ingenic that they should re-base their work on kernel.org21:47
wolfspraulnot sure whether they get it though...21:47
wolfspraulabout the 3 SDIOs21:47
wolfspraulIngenic will first try to throw everything in, like lars said "more of everything"21:48
wolfspraulthen on the way to actual customers, things are thrown out again21:48
wpwrakoh yes, they should definitely do that. and be more open about the specs. it's really bad for open collaboration if you never quite know how much the person you're talking to knows.21:48
wolfsprauleither because they failed on the engineering side (their people just can't get the stuff to work)21:48
larscwell, even the 4750 has some substatial changes. So I doubt that most of the 4740 drivers will work for the 476021:48
wolfspraulor because of packaging21:48
wolfspraulone interesting thing in the 4760 is the dual-core21:49
wpwrak(now work for the 4760) that would be unusual. normally, function blocks are just copied with as few changes as possible21:49
wolfspraulmaybe one core can be dedicated for GPS signal processing or such21:49
wpwrakbtw, 4755 is too21:49
wolfspraulmy rough Ingenic roadmap looks like this:21:50
wolfspraulfirst - meeting with them to talk about upstream (2.6.36). I will ask them to release the 4740 programmer's manual under cc-by-nd. And I will ask them to re-base their work on upstream.21:50
wolfspraulXiangfu does have a 4760 EVB, and we did some hacking on it already, u-boot etc.21:50
wolfspraulso I will ask for another 2 EVBs, bringing the total to 321:51
wpwraksounds good so far21:51
wolfspraulthen I can have one for Adam to study, and one for Germany, for exampe if Lars is interested21:51
wpwrakalso the 4720_ds, please. you really need both.21:51
wpwrakyup. perfect21:52
wolfspraulthen I need to talk with them seriously about 4760 packaging21:52
wolfspraulso far I have only heard about a 350-ball bga package21:52
wolfspraulbasically that's the one where everything of the 'more of everything' will be brought out21:52
wpwrakyou prefer COB ?21:52
wolfspraulno no21:52
wolfspraulI am not sure whether this 350-ball bga package will ever really be sold, or demanded by customers21:52
wpwrakah, i see. well, it's not bigger than the others21:53
wolfspraulit could be that there is too much failed and random stuff in there, the down-side of the 'more of everything' strategy21:53
wolfspraulso last time the CEO also spoke about 2 other packages they are planning - 256-ball BGA and 128-pin qfp.21:53
wolfspraulthese things are changing quite a bit, btw. it's super demand driven.21:54
wpwraknot sure just putting more of the same is a big design risk. i'd worry much much more about new things.21:54
wolfspraulso I have to find out - which of the 4760 variants (if any) will actually become a high-volume product.21:54
wolfspraulI think one reason we had quite a lot of fun with the 4740, including say larsc (let me know if I'm wrong), is that the 4740 is found in many products21:55
wpwrakfun = obscure bugs ?21:55
wolfspraulso the kernel work we did applies to Sungale, Hanvon, Dingoo - not just the exotic 'copyleft' Qi stuff21:55
wolfspraulno, interesting devices21:55
wpwrakah, fun = motivation21:55
wolfspraulalso meaningful21:56
wolfspraulgreat kernel.org support for a bunch of EVBs? come on...21:56
wolfspraulwe are wasting everybody's time21:56
wpwrakbah, just focus on hack value ;-)21:56
wolfspraulthere are too many things to hack on21:56
wolfspraulthat's why I stay away from 4750 and 475521:56
wolfspraulthey did not 'catch on'21:56
wolfspraulso some people are forced into them, but there really is no adoption wave, and never will be anymore21:57
wpwrakoh, i see. 4750 would be a "plan B", feature-wise21:57
wolfspraulI will not touch it.21:57
wolfspraulrather do Milkymist NanoNote right away21:57
wpwrakheh ;-)21:57
wolfspraulmy work needs to make sense (create value) from a free software perspective21:57
wolfspraulthe fact that the NanoNote helped to get 4740 support into kernel.org is good for a lot of projects21:57
wpwraki niche 4750 would also be a sourcing risk21:58
wolfspraulI cannot get lost in tons of proprietary features that are popping up here and there. life is too short :-)21:58
wolfspraulsourcing is OK21:58
wolfspraulthere is only 1 source anyway, so strategically the risk is always the same. and I have a good relationship.21:58
wolfspraulso about 476021:58
wolfspraulI need to understand which package may have the chance to catch on.21:58
wolfspraulthen I know which features are inside (or rather come out in that particular package)21:59
wpwrak(sourcing) i mean, if nobody else uses it and you're small, they may have to scrap it, no matter how much they like you21:59
wolfspraulif we do a Ya NanoNote, we are still free to choose - 350-ball bga, 256-ball bga, even 128-pin qfp (although I am afraid that one will have very little of anything)21:59
kristianpaulwolfspraul: hey22:00
wpwrakyou may want to consider having a 32 bit ram bus22:00
wpwrakalso, 4760 supports DDR22:00
wolfspraulwpwrak: making another wafer is cheap22:00
kristianpaulwolfspraul: just curios about  issues in SIE manufacturing process22:00
wolfspraulI think they currently still use 6 or 8'' wafers22:00
wpwrakso you could be up to 4x as fast as the ben22:00
wolfspraulso that's maybe 1000 ICs22:00
kristianpauli just read carlos mail about getting time short for hist studets start hacking the boards :)22:01
kristianpaulso i just feel curios to ask about :)22:01
wpwrak(making another wafer) hmm, usually things that sound so easy aren't ;-)22:01
wolfspraulkristianpaul: no all is fine. there was a couple days delay in getting all tests to work. the components are with the SMT factory already, run should be Friday/Saturday this week.22:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: I will ask a bit more about it, always curious to learn these things.22:02
wolfspraulI want to focus on high-volume chips anyway.22:02
kristianpaulwolfspraul: usual delays i guess? nothign to worry or take care next time?22:02
wolfspraulso that's where 4760 stands, and that's why I don't know whether it's 3 SDIO, or 2, or 122:02
wpwrakyup. safe choice in all regards22:02
wolfspraulkristianpaul: the 'delay' Carlos is talking about is relative to the wiki schedule Adam wrote up.22:02
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ah ok ;)22:02
wolfspraulbut that's not really fair. We are writing up the schedule as a first 'good guess', and share it.22:03
wpwrakokay. let's hope for the best. something like 2 SDIO and >= 2 SPI would be nice, preferably >= 3 SPI.22:03
wolfspraultwo weeks into the work you realize, oh well, you need another week22:03
wolfspraulso you push out the schedule22:03
wpwrakyou cna't have too many SPI anyway ;-)22:03
wpwrakor SD with SPI mode support22:03
wolfspraulif this wiki schedule would have been written by wpwrak it would first be finished in 2 weeks, and 6 months later wpwrak would still be working on very valuable stuff22:03
wolfspraulso yes, there were 'delays' on the wiki schedule, but in my experience all is smooth and moving forward.22:04
wolfspraulthe next big thing will be whether the SMT run is successful, and functioning boards come out22:04
kristianpaulsure delays happens22:04
wolfspraulwe know Monday22:04
wolfspraulit's not a real delay IMO22:04
wolfspraulrather a miscalculation22:04
wolfspraulif Carlos would have asked me, I would have doubled all numbers from Adam anyway.22:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: you should know by now that there's no point in asking me for a schedule ;-))22:04
wolfspraulon my schedule, there is no delay.22:04
kristianpaulah thats explain it more !22:05
wolfspraulthere you go22:05
wolfspraulI understand Carlos sentiment however. we are trying to make these boards asap.22:05
wolfspraulwe have dropped the ball on everything else to get this done. Not more I can do. And neither can Carlos that's why he writes the mail :-)22:05
wolfspraulI know the students are waiting since August 10.22:06
wolfsprauland they even have paid already by now.22:06
kristianpaulwpwrak: kernel modules or programas? i need to write a sort of logic analizaer and draw on screen 3 signals at ~ 2Mhz rate using gpio, what you recommend based on your experience?22:06
kristianpaulwolfspraul: sure thats emotinal stress happens after the "cash get out the hands"22:07
wpwrakkristianpaul: you mean kernel or user space ? where does the data come from ? gpios ?22:07
kristianpauli just was worried about some more tecnical process or soemthing22:07
wolfspraulwell on my side too. I hate pre-pay/pre-order. And essentially I accepted that because I sold the boards before I had them manufactured.22:08
wolfspraulwhat if there is a manufacturing problem now? very bad for me.22:08
wolfspraulbut like I said, we are breaking all the rules just to get these boards made asap, because the students cannot wait22:08
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah sorry, kerl or user space, from a SPI-like out-put from a IF chips, gpios from ben22:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: sounds more like all user space than kernel of you don't mind running with privileges. that way, you safe the time it takes to get in and out of the kernel22:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: before the dsv, I'm curious about ben-blinkenlights22:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: you'll probably need elevated cpu priority. do you write to the screen directly ?22:10
wolfspraulyou made it yourself? do you need a new kernel driver or can you control the lights with the current kernel already?22:10
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah all to make it fast22:10
kristianpaulalso because later need do some FFT22:11
wpwrakwolfspraul: yup, i made it. you just run bbl (fro bbl.c) as root22:11
kristianpaulof course in that step i dont need write to screen22:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: do you need to respond to interrupts ?22:11
kristianpauli just need to start debugging what i'm reading from the chip22:11
kristianpaulwpwrak: dont know yet..22:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: the idea to use the uSD port came from Ornotermes. he also made a nice 1200 dpi scan of a uSD card that helped to get this done more rapidly22:12
wolfspraulwpwrak: so no new drivers needed. just run user-space as root?22:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: yup22:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: bbl just reprograms the gpios. kicks out sd/mmc ;-)22:13
kristianpauli think wpwrak relly like user space :=)22:14
wpwrak(fortunately, sd/mmc doesn't mind. i didn't actually check if this was safe. but if it wouldn't be, i'd know by now :)22:14
kristianpaulhey i forgot ask you about reading data using uSD22:14
kristianpaulnow that wpwrak is making good examples to use it on the openwrt22:14
kristianpaulmay be i can use uSD instead of gpio..22:15
wolfsprauldoes your discovery of the sdio possibilities mean that ben-wpan will now be attached to the microSD-connector, rather than on the side of the LCM?22:15
wpwrakkristianpaul: you can tell a good kernel developer by how well he/she is at avoiding to do things in the kernel ;-)22:15
wpwrakkristianpaul: you should be able to read back things without a problem22:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: well, the story is a bit more complicated. for the ya/ben II, i still think the lcm is the place to go22:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: but i can prototype on uSD. and the prototype could become an upgrade for the existing ben.22:16
wolfspraulyes I would love to manufacture crazy microSD cards22:17
wolfspraulalso, you know my opinion on proprietary microcontrollers22:17
wolfspraulnot that I want to stop anybody22:17
wolfspraulbut every new proprietary tool or compiler we introduce slows us down22:17
wolfspraulI'm talking about that CapSense stuff22:18
kristianpaulwpwrak: i'm just really worried that the monolic kernel we use all days, may slowdown acess and fast response talking about GPIO22:18
wolfspraulI agree the 8051+cpld is already a bit better.22:18
wpwrakwolfspraul: so this saves me having to worry about tricky cabling for a while. the tricky cabling is particularly bad because i don't even have the right kind of cable (fpc with customized shape), so it'll be an uphill battle all the way, with many annoying failure modes that just distract from what i want to do22:18
wolfspraulyes yes22:18
kristianpaulwolfspraul: good point about microcontrollers22:18
wolfspraultotally agree22:18
kristianpaulwolfspraul: so add micro fpgas (kidding about micro) is better for you?22:19
wolfspraulso with any (new or old) proprietary ICs, at least I want to understand how they help on the path to more freedom. if I have such a path in mind, the proprietary IC becomes acceptable.22:19
kristianpaulor just re-ue and avbuse from ingenic xbust as much as we can ;)?22:19
wolfspraulyes sure, if that means some of the work we do in the micro-fpga can be carried forward into our own ICs later22:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: that was just to answer carlo's question. i don't quite see capacitative sending in the main keyboard. and for the slider/softbuttons next to the screen, i think having to add an MCU just for that would have a poor cost/benefit ratio22:20
wolfspraulif anything I want to make my own ICs22:20
wolfspraulwe need a good (small) starting point for that anyway22:20
wpwrakwolfspraul: so i'm all for not having MCUs unless we really really have to. and of course, the more open and better supported with tools and the like, the better22:20
wolfspraulwe are on the same page22:21
kristianpaulwpwrak: i hope you order from digikey some cpld's too ? :)22:21
wolfsprauland if it's a fpga/cpld programmed in verilog/vhdl, and we can later carry this forward into a bigger fpga, or into our own asic, then that's the way to go22:21
wpwrakwolfspraul: in fact, i'll probably kick the MCU from IDBG and switch to FT232R. the latter now seems competitive and we don't really need the ability to run our own code in IDBG on the ben.22:21
wpwrakwolfspraul: (in case that changes, i can always bring the MCU back, of course :)22:21
kristianpaulFT232R !22:22
wpwrakkristianpaul: no cpld/fpgas for me for now. first, lekernel has to write his Open/Free fpga synthesizer ;-)22:22
kristianpaulwpwrak: wut?22:22
kristianpaula PHd take time i guess22:23
wpwrakkristianpaul: i'm not particularly fond of those ft232 chips, but in this case, it just looks like the better solution. slightly fewer external components, no programming required, similar price, same size.22:23
kristianpaulwpwrak: i dont understand you said not to fpga/cpld but still using propietary Micro-controllers, so whats diferences?22:24
wpwrakkristianpaul: ft232r is a black box for me. i don't care about what's going on inside. it does serial and bit-banging for me. that's enough.22:24
kristianpaulwpwrak: indeed22:24
kristianpaulsame with micro-controllers?22:25
wpwrakkristianpaul: microcontrollers, i have to program. so they're not a black box22:25
kristianpauleven when you know you can implement one SoC with the already made MM ?22:25
kristianpaulwpwrak: you program a blackbox..22:26
wolfspraulwpwrak: sorry I have a stupid question for you22:26
kristianpaulthe manufacture just give you the manual wich tell what is inside the box22:26
kristianpaulyou buy it22:26
kristianpauluse it22:26
wpwrakkristianpaul: fpgas are tricky. i would generally want them for the ability to hack them. but yes, if i just needed it to load mm and be happy with it, fpga would be okay.22:26
kristianpauland belive it works as he said22:26
wpwrakkristianpaul: i also don't mind that my usrp has a proprietary fpga. again, just a black box for me.22:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: fire away :)22:27
wolfspraulsomeone wants to manufacture a wifi design around xburst with me. he says he can give me the entire design, and I can open it up if I want to.22:27
kristianpaulsure fpga uses propietary sinteshys sofware but at least you can model some digial hardware, is that bad??22:27
wolfspraulso now, he writes "we have a power amplifier that brings RF power to antenna to 23-25dbm, I guess you don't need that"22:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: what are the semantics of "entire" ? :)22:28
wolfsprauloh, it's still a closed wi-fi chip, nothing special, not on our level here :-)22:28
wolfspraulI am just trying to understand what he means with "we have a power amplifier ... to 23-25dbm"22:28
wolfsprauland why I would or would not need that22:28
wpwrakmost transceiver chips have a relatively low power output22:29
wpwrak(that is, transceicers with built-in power amplifier)22:29
wpwrakso sometimes you add another one to boost the signal more22:29
wolfspraulah so it's stronger than usual?22:30
wpwrakthis one would be 300-320 mW22:30
wpwrakerr, 200-320 mW22:30
wpwrakyes. 100 mW would be normal for wifi22:30
kristianpaulthats more a my wrt54gl, isnt?22:30
wpwrak(if i got all the regulations right ;)22:30
wolfspraulso with that power amplifier it would not be cerfitiable as a regular wi-fi retail ap by the fcc?22:31
wpwrakkristianpaul: according to mine, it can go up to 251 mW22:32
kristianpaulwpwrak: wrt54gl?22:32
wolfspraulhow hard is it to remove such a power amplifier from a design?22:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: dunno. it may be a case of "as long as you promise not to use it where you're not allowed to" ...22:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: 100 mW isn't strictly the limit of the regulations. you can go up to 1 W, but with additional constraints22:33
kristianpaul1 W :O22:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: at least in FCC land. EU is another story again.22:33
wpwrakkristianpaul: yup22:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: i read most of the regs with the question "could we be in conflict with this one ?", so i'm not so sure on the things that i can exclude a priori, e.g., xxl power amps22:35
wpwrakfor reference, my wrt54gl is set to 42 mW output by default22:36
kristianpaulahh i knew it !22:36
wpwrak(remove the PA) should be easy. you're likely to find more documentation on the design without extra PA than the one with it.22:37
kristianpaulbut that up to 251 mW is a openwrt thing or firmware that mye not obey to you?22:37
wpwrakexcept if your transceiver needs a PA either way. they you would have to find a different PA22:38
wpwrakkristianpaul: dunno. i just see that it offers 251 mW and i assume its not lying to me :)22:38
wpwrakwell .. let's see what happens when i set it ...22:39
kristianpaulah you never tried that before? !22:39
wpwraknope. i just knew that tx power is usually something you can change, yet i rarely do22:40
wpwrakmost of the time, the ap's tx isn't the problem anyway22:40
wolfspraulok I think I got it, roughly.22:41
wolfspraulwell if he pays me enough money and I can open up some nice (if high-level) design files in the process, I'll manufacture the stuff for him :-)22:41
wolfspraulwe won't crack open the wifi thing like this ever, anyway22:42
wolfspraulwpwrak: did you digi-key shipment make it through customs?22:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: still sitting there. they're slow today :-(22:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: never had problems with things from digi-key, though. so unless they don't like the antennas for some reason, i don't expect any this time either.22:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: they once dropped a shipment from openmoko off the regular process and made me clear customs myself (trip to the airport, day lost going from one office to the next, etc.) because they thought this could be something to crack stolen phones.22:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: little do they know :)22:46
wolfspraulwpwrak: 'dropped off the regular process' - was this with fedex?22:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: not sure if it was fedex or dhl. it wsn't ems. (ems goes elsewhere)22:47
kristianpaulwpwrak: how do you argue those itemes were not to crack phones?22:47
wpwrakkristianpaul: i just tell them what they are for. and i don't explain to them that i wouldn't need all this if i really wanted to set up a phone cracking shop, and that, yes, i could explain them in detail how to do it. well, almost :-)22:49
wolfspraulin reality, the complexity of all this has long surpassed what governments can actually regulate22:50
wolfspraulbut in a move of massive inertia, they are able to hold up the perception of regulation for a bit22:51
wolfspraulwpwrak: I was just asking because fedex claims to have their own customs brokers, so with fedex theoretically it should never 'drop out of the regular process'22:51
wolfspraulthe broker will always drive the process, maybe unless you really smuggle some drugs or weapons or fissile material etc...22:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: yeah, when talking to those customs guys, it's always tricky to assess where exactly between sticks and stones and the transistor they are :)22:52
wolfspraulwell they have no chance22:52
wolfspraulit's a show22:52
wolfspraulbut the show must go on22:52
wpwrakah no, fedex, dhl, they all have their brokers. they do the simple process.22:52
wolfsprauldsv (data sheet viewer) - no I didn't know yet. tell me more...22:53
wolfspraulwhat is that? where can I see it?22:54
wpwrakif it drops out of this, you're on your own. they don't even have a broker they can recommend you. (although that may be because of some arrangements/regulations, not because they wouldn't want to help you)22:54
wpwrak(dsv) check out ben-wpan22:54
wpwrakthen  make dsv22:54
wpwrakwait until it's done. then22:54
wpwrakscripts/dsv antenna22:54
wpwrakscripts/dsv at86rf23022:54
wpwrakscripts/dsv mcu22:54
wpwrakor just scripts/dsv22:54
wpwraknote the time between experiencing the desire of seeing a data sheet and the moment it appears :)22:55
kristianpaulhttp://paste.debian.net/87209 how do i solve this?22:56
kristianpaulwolfspraul: do you need my public key? where i send it?22:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: yeah it's running "make dsv" now. It must be doing something _really good_, given how long it takes...22:57
rohopenssl broke my lighty22:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: it's just downloading stuff23:00
wolfspraulkristianpaul: there are two ways to access the repositories on the projects server23:00
rohjust in case some of you run into the same problem23:00
wolfspraulgit@ and git://23:00
wpwrakroh: awhttpd for the win :)23:00
wolfspraulthe git@ requires you to have write access to that repository (be an admin or member, and have a ssh pubkey uploaded for your account)23:01
wolfspraulbut in the meantime, if you just want to get the sources, try git clone git://projects.qi-hardware.com/ben-blinkenlights.git23:01
kristianpauli think that message you be fixed here http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-blinkenlights/source/tree/master/23:01
wolfspraulit tries to be smart and sometimes tell you to use git@, sometimes git://23:02
wolfspraulinstead of explaining the whole situation23:02
wpwrakit could show both :)23:02
wolfspraulif you log out from your account, it will give you the git:// URL for sure23:02
wolfspraulyes I agree23:02
kristianpauli wasnt logged frist time i try23:03
kristianpaulokay i uploaded my public key !23:03
wolfspraulok can you try the command I just gave you? the git:// url. what do you get?23:03
kristianpaulah sure that works23:04
wolfspraulokay, maybe that also works as long as you only read. you should not be able to commit unless your account is an admin or member of the projects (depending on projects settings, but that's the default)23:04
kristianpaulnow the git@ too :)23:04
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok yes, it is really downloading some PDFs23:04
wpwraksome sites are a bit on the slow side :(23:05
wolfspraulbtw, quite a few websites have fine print against 'deep links'23:05
rohwolfspraul doesnt support ssl at all23:05
wolfspraulthey pull it out when their legal dept has you on the radar23:06
wpwrak"pull it out" = change the path ? or make you not link ?23:06
wpwrak(try to)23:06
wolfspraulit's not really enforced until there is a bigger reason to go after you23:06
wolfspraulwpwrak: for example, http://www.mips.com/terms-of-use/23:07
wolfspraul"In addition, you may not "deep-link" or use robots, spiders or other automatic devices, programs, algorithms or methodologies to monitor, access, copy or acquire any Materials or portions of this Site."23:08
wolfspraulso if your script goes to such a site, it violates the terms of use of that site23:08
wolfspraulsorry, just fyi (you do this to me with 'regulations' all the time :-))23:09
wpwrakthere doesn't seem to be a safe way to access such sites then23:09
wpwrakeven written instructions in plain english could be read by a script, etc.23:09
wolfspraulyou have to describe the steps to go to the document you mean in prose ("go to the homepage. click on ..., then click on ..., then ...")23:09
wolfspraulno need to argue with me, I just quote the terms of use :-)23:10
wolfspraulit's my regulation 1:1 with you...23:10
wolfspraulwe are even now23:10
wolfspraulthey will pull this out if they have you on the radar for something23:10
wolfspraulof course they will. they have lawyers sitting around who need to justify their jobs.23:10
wpwrakso the solution would be something that actually parses step by step instructions23:11
wolfspraulI guess it's still a "program, algorithm or methodology"?23:11
wolfspraulI don't know, it's stupid.23:11
wolfspraullet's ignore this shit23:11
wpwrakso would be any description a human being can be reasonably expected to repeat accurately :)23:11
wolfspraulhey: and this is logged!23:12
wpwrakyeah, ignoring it seems to be the best approach :)23:12
wpwrakif they don't like it, one can always send it to some warez site and link that one ;-)23:12
qi-bot[commit] Juan José Díaz Vecchio: Aded 2 phototransistors; removed accelerometer, i2c http://qi-hw.com/p/sie-ceimtun/710236c23:13
wolfspraulwpwrak: look here, under "supporting documentation"23:14
wpwrakthe "deep link" stuff usually comes up when you try to pretent the content is yours. that's not the goal here at all23:14
wolfspraulthey can pull it out whenever they like to.23:14
wolfspraulif you go down to 'supporting documentation', you have the legally accepted way to link to the PDF on the mips.com site23:15
wolfspraulright before "Bit/little endian" - do you see it?23:15
wpwrakyup, i see it. hmm, isn't the full title, combined with google, as "deep link" too ? :)23:16
wpwrakwolfspraul: the URL "dsv" uses are in the file BOOKSHELF. so would you rather not have them on projects ?23:18
wolfspraulno no23:18
wpwrakjust checking :)23:18
wolfspraulI just bring this up because it's a fact, same as the regulations you are pulling up.23:18
wolfspraulI don't know how many tech sites have deep links rules in their terms of use now.23:18
wolfspraulbut I could imagine that it grows, for sure. the lawyers are writing and writing and writing...23:19
wolfsprauland they have the law on their side23:19
wolfspraulso if they would ever understand what this script does, they will write you a nice letter to stop violating their terms of use.23:19
wolfspraulif you are lucky, the letter does not come with an invoice.23:19
wpwrakyes. i know of the issue in general. but also all the work-arounds don't quite convince.23:20
wolfspraulthe best is to get rid of proprietary IP altogether23:20
wolfspraulkick all those comanies out23:20
wolfspraulthey have too much money, for the wrong things, obviously23:20
wpwrakfind a cure for lawyers ;-)23:20
wolfspraulin this case it starts with proprietary IP that they need to 'protect'23:21
wolfspraulthe deep link nonsense is just one small little tool in the 'protection' arsenal23:21
wolfspraulbut if you think they won't use it, for whatever reason, well, wrong23:21
wolfspraulthey will23:21
wpwraki wonder how alldatasheets do it. after all, they even have copies. now that should enrage the nazguls.23:22
wolfspraulthe opencores plasma homepage is so clean because they got some help from MIPS :-)23:22
wpwrakone of these days i'll write that english -> url parser :)23:22
wolfspraulI don't know how alldatasheets does it23:23
wolfspraulmaybe somewhat undergroundish?23:23
wolfspraulis there a legal entity behind it? where are they located? where are their servers? etc. etc.23:23
wolfspraulit's a big world :-)23:23
wolfsprauland what is their legal strategy? react quickly to take-down notices?23:23
wolfspraulthere are many strategies23:23
wolfspraulobviously the servers are still there, so whatever their strategy is, it seems to work in the real world23:23
wpwrakmaybe it's time for making a little satellite with a few TB of storage :)23:24
wpwrak"serve *that* task-down notice" :)23:24
wolfspraulthere you go23:24
wolfspraulgood idea23:24
wolfspraulthe freedom satellite!23:24
wolfspraulI love it23:24
wolfspraulPCBs made in werner's diy lab23:24
wpwrakanyway, what dsv tries to solve is the generally much worse IP violations caused by the need to send around copies of data sheets23:27
wpwrakneed or perceived need in this case23:27
wolfspraulwe launch it, and it hosts datasheets, ha ha!23:27
wolfspraulbut unfortunately I read that both the Chinese and Americans are working on the ability to take down satellites23:27
wolfsprauleven 'dock' on one for 'servicing'23:27
wpwrakwe can add some active meteorite protection :)23:28
wolfspraulyou are trying to circumvent non-redistribution clauses?23:28
wolfspraulnice :-)23:28
wpwrakplus make it all a bit more efficient23:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok dsv finished and it all works. so it's just a way to download files into a cache and view them.23:37
wolfspraulit's nice, a way to document urls23:38
wolfspraulunfortunately like I said, with many of those datasheets there may be some nasty terms of use associated with those urls and pdfs23:39
wpwrakthe idea is that each project user/participant can get the document set this way efficiently23:39
wpwrakyes. i guess we really need that english to url parser :)23:39
wolfspraulyes, unless there could be a central repository somewhere of greater stability/longevity than these vendor urls, it's good23:39
wolfsprauland such a central repository is too hard to setup right now, so it's the best compromise23:40
wpwrakof course, there's also the question of whether "dsv" falls under the things they can prohibit23:40
wpwrake.g., the MIPS exclusion would also include your Web browser23:40
wpwrakthe central repository would also be a pretty clear violation of traditional copyright law23:41
wolfspraulah sure, I try to focus on realistic threats only. we just need to keep it in mind, those policies and people to enforce them are out there.23:41
wolfsprauland we are not planning to steal any of their wonderful intellectual property anyway, so it's definitely different from a company that wants to sell cloned ICs, for example.23:42
wolfspraulbut unlike the schematics diff scripts, dsv is of no use on the server, I think23:43
wolfspraul(running on the server)23:43
wpwrakyup. we're not the enemy. of course, that doesn't have to prevent their lawyers from becoming ours23:43
wpwrakat least when you view BOOKSHELF in the tree (on projects), the URLs just appear as plain text. so we're not worse than heise.de :)23:44
wpwrakno, dsv is the contrary of being something for the server :)23:44
wpwrakbut if you can get companies to make things available at least at the level at which dsv can use them, that would be a win23:45
wolfspraulstrange. if I read this correctly, they only give you a license for non-commercial use.23:48
wolfspraulbut I cannot imagine that they mean no professional (paid) party can download and use their documentation23:49
wolfspraulso maybe they mean the use of the documents per se must be non-commercial23:49
wolfspraulso I cannot act as a print-shop and print-out the PDFs for a fee23:49
wolfspraulprobably... who knows...23:49
wolfspraulI mean I can download the PDF, go down to the street here and have a nice booklet sometime this afternoon still :-)23:50
wpwrakthey seem to equate "use" with "reproduction"23:51
wpwrak"termination of this license" ... "Atmel may terminate this agreement immediately without notice, for any reason. Upon such termination, you must destroy all Materials."23:52
wpwrakso, if they dojn't even notify you, how do you know ? :)23:52
wolfspraulwell basically the rule is: whatever Atmel wants, will happen.23:53
wpwraknothing new then :)23:54
wpwrakbtw, regarding potential IP problems, the antenna is probably the riskiest bit. after all it's a TI design we're using with an Atmel product. the antenna document doesn't mention any restrictions, so it's anyone's guess if this passes as "fair use" or not23:55
wolfspraulI understand, but let's just move forward.23:55
wolfspraulthe most interesting part is that you document the process, test results, etc.23:56
wolfspraulthat gives us the knowledge, hopefully, one day if someone comes and bullies us out of a particular thing, to come up with a replacement fast23:56
wpwrakworst case, we can always fall back to a chip antenna23:57
wolfspraulfor example I have the feeling the setup of your apartment, with diy pcb etching, usrp, puts you in a position to out-innovate quite a few of the dinosaurs23:58
wpwrakincidentally, there are a few cheap ones in my digi-key order :)23:58
wolfspraulso let's see what you find, what you think works, and then we proceed and I'm fairly optimistic we will not wake up the sleeping dogs too early23:59
wpwraktrial and error cycles can indeed be short :)23:59
wolfspraulyes :-)23:59
--- Thu Sep 2 201000:00

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.9.2 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!