#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-08-31

wpwrakwolfspraul: how do you like this one ? http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/demo2/00:22
wpwrak(except for the renamed columns. haven't done these yet.)00:22
wolfspraulhe, now your scripts also need to deal with the splits! :-)00:23
wolfspraulso we support A4 and A3, but not A2?00:24
wpwrakit supports a2, but they don't look too good00:24
wolfspraulah OK00:24
wpwraki think the difference heuristics are now reasonably stable with a2. they may still miss some detail, i suppose, but they now find more than they used to.00:25
wpwrakthe price to pay for this is more demand on disk space. there are now three different pixmaps: the ones for the difference views, the ones for the thumbnails, and then another set for the calculating the differences. the latter used thinner lines than the rest and disables anti-aliasing.00:26
wolfspraulso now you basically have a 3rd level, the PDF00:27
wolfspraulwhich has the two sheets separately00:27
wolfspraulmaybe should be labeled 'before commit' and 'after commit' or so?00:27
wolfspraulon the second level, the large png, I still find it too small to be readable00:27
wpwrakthe two sheets, or one in case of addition/deletion. in the top bar of the front page, you also have the latest file and the while collection right of it00:28
wpwrak(label) what pdf viewer do you use ?00:28
wolfspraulmaybe the browser scales the large png? I use firefox 3.6.x00:28
wolfspraulprobably xpdf00:28
wpwrakxpdf should show BEFORE/AFTER in the sidebar00:29
wpwrak(hard to read) yes, that's generally a problem with things like schematics vs. non-zoomable images. the idea is that, if you're already familiar with the schematics, this image will tell you where the change is00:30
wpwrakto see all the details, the PDF is just one click away00:30
wolfspraulok, my firefox uses evince, I don't see before/after there. in xpdf I do see it, but it's not clear which page you are on visually (maybe my xpdf)00:31
wpwrakhmm, thinking of it .. i could make a zoom view. precalculate a magnified version of the change area and use an image map on the large view.00:31
wpwrak(xpdf) no, that's unfortunately how xpdf does it00:32
wolfspraulI understand your point about the large PNG00:32
wpwrakthe problem with labeling is that i don't quite know where it's safe to do so.00:32
wolfspraulfor me it's more psychological. in the small png (overview), it's clear you cannot read anything. just get a very rough idea of the location/magnitude of the changes.00:32
wolfspraulbut then you load the next larger png, and it is _almost_ readable. the almost is the frustrating part imo :-)00:33
wpwrakyeah, i know. it's very very close to being readable ;-))00:33
wpwrak(zoom) i think a precomputed magnified view could work nicely. needs to connect things from a lot of places, though, so it's not entirely easy. i'd say that's a version 2.0 feature :)00:37
wpwrakalso storage demands will go up.  the baby is getting a bit fat :)00:38
wolfspraulI think that should be OK.00:38
wpwrakrsync of xue output now takes me ~45 minutes00:39
wolfspraul50GB partition right now, 33 GB are free. and the 50 GB is totally arbitrary, I could easily increase it to 100, 200, etc.00:39
wolfspraulI am probably a bit more worried about server load.00:40
wolfspraulthe cache will stay, then it should be OK from what you said00:40
wpwraklemme check how much disk space it needs ...00:41
wpwrak1.4 GB (cache and output of Xue)00:42
wpwrakcache rebuild is now ~19 min00:42
wpwrakoutput rebuild from cache is ... waiting ...00:43
wpwrak2 minutes00:45
wpwrakif i don't regenerate the PNGs it would be even faster. kinda 2 cache levels00:46
wpwrakthat's a on a Q6600, basically without parallelizing00:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Fix two bugs left from the great reorganization. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/80c6f3e00:47
wolfspraulI have to see how it performs on the server. if we need more power it's also OK at least we have a good reason.00:47
wpwrakhehe :) you;ll need to take some precautions that you don't start a job before the previous one has finished00:48
wpwrakright now, that's even more or less global. if you run two in, say, ~qihw/xue and ~qihw/ben-wpan, they would clash on some temporary files00:49
wpwrakthat's more feature than bug. i have to go up the hierarchy to make sure relative paths crossing projects still work. so the only choice would be to use a fixed name for the temporary directory or a variable one (based on PID or such)00:51
wpwrakin the latter case, you'd of course get some directory with junk when the process fails for some reason00:51
wolfspraulpaths crossing projects?00:52
wpwrakbut then, you may actually now want to have more than one run at the same time00:52
wpwrake.g., ben-wpan uses things from f32xbase00:52
wpwrakso it assumed they're both at the same point in the hierarchy and accesses them with ../f32xbase/foo00:53
wolfspraulwhat 'things' for example?00:53
wpwrakf32xbase has firmware components. boot loader, USB stack, DFU, etc.00:54
wpwrakall my little usb devices share that code. ben-wpan, cntr, in theory also idbg (the code comes from there, but idbg doesn't live in the qi-hw hierarchy)00:55
wpwrakonce we have a kicad symbols and footprint library, also kicad could use things in this way00:55
wpwrakrelative paths avoid the problem of having to find a global install location on the system and all that entails00:56
wpwrakwell, there are three choices: relative paths to files, absolute paths to files, and names that get combined with a search path00:58
wpwraksearch paths only move the issue elsewhere, because you then have to put the right relative or absolute path there00:59
wpwrakor use a default path, which means installing in /usr/local/share or such (in the case of kicad files), or /usr/include, /usr/local/include, etc., in the case of code00:59
wpwrakbut now you need admin rights. not a nice general requirement.01:00
wolfspraulwait I cannot follow01:01
wolfspraulwe are talking about the scripts to generate the schematics diffs now, right?01:01
wpwrakrelative paths avoid all this. svn has another way, links into other repositories. not sure if git could do something like this, and at least in the case of svn it's a bit of a pain anyway01:01
wpwrakerr, of the effect the organization of projects sharing files with other projects have on the scripts01:02
wolfspraulwhat files do they share?01:03
wolfspraul.lib files?01:03
wpwrakben-wpan right now shares .c and .h files with f32xbase, plus a few special things like makefile templates01:03
wolfsprauland those dependencies need to be followed for the schematics diff generation?01:04
wpwrakif/when we make a "common kicad libraries" project (symbols, footprints, not scripts), then also .lib, .mod, and .fpd would be shared01:04
wpwrakit just assumes they are being satisfied01:05
wpwrake.g., assuming ben-wpan lives in /home/qi/ben-wpan01:06
wpwrakmy schematics are in /home/qi/ben-wpan/atrf/*.sch01:06
wolfspraulhmm, OK. so the scripts have some flexibility in following a ../ link outside of a project top-dir so in the future, links could be constructed between projects01:07
wpwrakif we had a kicad-libs project, and it would live in /home/qi/kicad-libs/01:07
wpwrakthen ben-wpan could access, say, at86rf230.lib as ../../kicad-libs/components/at86rf230.lib01:08
wolfspraulI got it. I guess my concern comes from trying to avoid making a qi-specific closed system.01:09
wpwraknow, the schematics diff generate needs to check out the repository such that these paths still work01:09
wolfspraulURLs would be better, but the kicad files need to be functional also locally for editing, so I guess for now the ../ thing works nicely both locally and on the server01:09
wpwrakthere's nothing qi-specific about it. if you share stuff across projects, you need some policy. if you install everything globally instead, that will work too01:10
wolfspraulno projects is nice01:10
wpwrakkicad won't follow urls :)01:10
wolfspraulyes :-)01:10
wolfspraulno it's all good, I got it already.01:11
wpwrakso when you tell my eeschems diff system that you wish to diff the project at /home/qi/ben-wpan and the schematics rooted at artf/ben-wpan.sch, then it will make a temporary directory /home/qi/_something and check out the /home/qi/ben-wpan/.git/ repository there01:12
wpwrakin the checkouts, it steps through the revisions01:12
wpwrakah yes, there could be conflicts when the shared projects have changes that aren't compatible01:13
wpwrakwell, let's worry about this when it happens :) ideally, the project you share with should be conservative anyway. or else this will be the least of everyone's worries01:14
wolfspraulthere is no such sharing yet anyway, right?01:14
wpwrak"conservative" = introduce item, debug it, then keep it stable. others would only access it after the debugging.01:15
wpwraknot yet. but that could change quickly :)01:15
wpwrakwe already have files shared among projects by means of duplication. e.g., stdpass.fpd (small chip component footprints, 0402, 0603, etc.)01:17
wpwrakalso idbg and ben-wpan "share" a lot this way. and ben-wpan "shares" with gta02-core in the same manner.01:17
wpwrak(a lot) well, the c8051f326, symbol and footprint. ben-wpan generalizes the footprint. and code from idbg went into f32xbase. i just need to connect idbg to all this again, and things will be sane :)01:21
wolfspraulgot it01:24
wpwrakokay. now all that's missing is the rename tracking and the migration of the scripts in a new project. eda-tools or such.01:32
wpwrakproject could be more specific (schwebdiff or such), but then we may have sharing issues when the time comes to do the same with the layout. at least i hope that much can be shared :)01:35
wpwrakah yes, if you like scary scripts, the last command in this one should whet your appetite: http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/source/tree/master/scripts/schps2pdf01:38
wolfsprauldo you need the 'export' in export i = 1?01:42
wpwrakunfortunately yes. otherwise, it doesn't make it into the <(...) subshell01:42
wolfspraulah yes01:43
wpwrakactually. maybe that's not true. lemme check. could be that i thought i need it but i don't.01:44
wpwrakyou're right. works without it, like with other types of subshells. found two other bugs as well.01:50
kyakbtw, a nicer way to increment is just ((i++))01:50
wpwraki try to keep the bashisms to a minimum :) but you're right, it would make this one a little more readable01:51
wpwrakah, and there's even a real bug left01:59
kyakunder certain conditions, this script allows for local privilege escalation? :)02:01
wpwrakit almost certainly does :)02:02
wpwraknaw, it was just missing curly braces in an  eval var=\$$i  so the 10th element didn't work02:04
wpwrakgood that xue did the split ;-)02:04
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Debugged and cleaned up schps2pdf. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/541dd0402:06
kyakyour script is quoting hell :)02:06
wpwrakindeed it is ;-)02:07
kyakwpwrak: what is the target of ben-wpan project? is it to enable ZigBee communication in Ben?02:08
wpwraki'd aim for 6LoWPAN. we would get ZigBee on the way, too, but its IP status isn't quite clear yet02:11
wpwrakso it may not be good to "advertize" this as ZigBee. besides, 6lowpan may be more interesting anyway.02:12
kyaknever heard of 6LoWPAN.. "IPv6 over Low power Wireless Personal Area Networks" - IPv6 is clear, what does it mean "Low power Wireless Personal Area Networks"?02:13
wpwrak"on the way" = there's the linux-zigbee project that aims to implement support for things on ieee 802.15.4, including 6lowpan and zigbee02:13
wpwrakWPAN is the type of network ieee 802.15.4 is designed for. basically for a "bubble" surrounding the user with a 10 m radius02:14
kyakok, say, i have a wireless router. To support 6LoWPAN there is just a matter of SW upgrade?02:15
wpwrakonce i get the rf side right, it should be a little more than 10 m, though. the chip is quite a bit better than what the specs require.02:15
wpwraknaw, you also need an ieee 802.15.4 transceiver02:15
kyakah ok02:16
wpwrakbut you could put a usb-to-ieee802.15.4 dongle into your pc and let that one act as a router02:16
wpwrakby sheer coincidence, the current ben-wpan prototype has a usb interface :)02:17
kyaki see! what is the real operating range you are getting mnow?02:17
kyakdo you mean, the ben-wpan prototype that you connect to your Ben or your PC?02:17
wpwrakoh, now it's even less. maybe 3-4 m with a thin wall in the path. but that's crappy rf design on my side.02:17
wpwrakyup. for now, it only connects to the pc. once that works well, i'll branch off a ben-only version that doesn't have usb and crystal.02:18
kyakok, i understand.. sounds great02:19
kyaklooks like a lot of work has to be done02:19
kyakpretty expensive02:20
kyakand you are right, they all combine ZigBee / 802.15.402:21
wpwraknice margin :)02:21
kyakhey, whats the need of "120V AC Adapter (ZR154-AC-USA)"? if there's no Host, there is no sense in this connection02:22
wpwrakthe board that goes into the ben will be quite cheap. but not really user-installable.02:22
wpwraki think you can load standalone programs into these dongles02:23
kyakhm, can't think of possible application02:24
kyakso this means, ben-wpan will probably go to Ya?02:24
wpwrak(standalone) maybe you can hook up a sensor in some way02:25
wpwrak(ya) that would be nice, yes02:25
wpwrakdepends on a number of things, though. e.g., me getting this beast to work properly, and nobody else coming up with something better02:26
kyakwhy not a fully functional Wi-Fi chip?02:26
wpwrakso if you find a USD 5 Free software friendly WiFi module, ben-wpan will be pretty dead ;-)02:26
kyakah, so it's the price02:27
wpwraksee above, note the "if" ;-)02:27
wolfspraulkyak: more than that. ben-wpan is the kind of feature that makes Ya possible.02:27
wpwrakprice and freedom. there's almost no public technical documentation on most of the wifi chips02:28
wolfspraulwe don't know what it will be, but Ya needs to have some major progress on the freedom side, otherwise what's the point of this project, and when do we reach the free smartphone :-)02:28
wolfspraulso the Ya process could be entirely in kicad, with visualizations like the stuff werner just did02:28
wolfsprauland/or it could have some really open RF solution, like ben-wpan02:29
wpwrakthat would be nice :)02:29
wpwrakthat too :)02:29
kyakyeah, finding affordable and free Wi-Fi chip may be impossible02:30
kyakwolfspraul: i think, there are actually two features that make Ya possible: wireless connectivity and a better LCD02:31
wolfspraulhold your expectations down on the better LCD02:32
wolfspraulat least coming from me that is, maybe someone else picks up the stuff and makes a different product out of it. that can always happen of course.02:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: did you look if there's some WQVGA you could use ? that wouldn't affect the form factor (well, except rearranging the display shell)02:33
wolfspraulfor the LCD, I will just go with the flow, get whatever is the cheapest and easily available module. Plus something that protects the software we've done so far, for example with Ilitek drive IC.02:34
wolfspraulno didn't look, that has time until much closer to an actual Ya production02:34
wpwrakWQVGA would just provide those 80 extra pixels everyone craves ;-)02:34
wpwrakis the drive ic such a big issue ?02:34
wolfspraulI am not against better LCM, but you know my priorities. In the end these are all things we can 'just' buy.02:34
wolfspraulno, not very big. But since it's a 100% community effort I am very careful about "it's just a few lines" comments.02:35
kyakok, not very encouraging but pretty fair02:37
wpwrak(just buy) the thing with the narrow display is that it makes the ben look weak. even people who completely "get" then openness message like to have products that look good.02:38
wolfspraulkyak: don't misunderstand me. I want the best LCM I can get. But it's not an area of active work, because we will not make any headway in terms of opening up that component anyway.02:38
wpwrakof course, the narrow display leaves room for rf. so there's also something good in this :)02:38
kyakwolfspraul: is the LCM closed currently?02:39
wolfspraulwell there is little to open, from a free software perspective02:40
kyakthen we can "Just buy" a better LCM, which is the same closed02:40
kyakor not?02:40
wpwrakthe right side of the display could even host a capacitative sensor (keys or some slider). that way, one could have "functions keys" where they make sense02:40
wolfspraulthe drive IC maybe, and that could lead to interesting optimizations, but there are many more juicy low hanging fruits.02:41
kyakwpwrak: great idea, at least it would make scrolling easier :)02:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: so no inauguration of the Sharism Panel Fab anytime soon ? :)02:41
wpwrakkyak: now, how to implement this cheaply, without adding a microcontroller ? :)02:42
wolfspraulkyak: basically if you look at the current LCM module, you can start to think of it as 4 parts: drive IC, FPC, glass, enclosure (called 'module' here)02:43
kyaki don't know, are there free inputs left on Ben's CPU?02:43
wolfspraulif you have lots of money, you can customize and optimize everything02:44
wolfspraulmost really high-end products have customized glass dimensions, customized drive ICs, customized filters, customized FPCs02:44
wpwrakkyak: there are. and you could have more in a new design. even without changing the cpu much.02:44
kyakwolfspraul: i see.. is the "enclosure" part the one responsible for resolution, right?02:44
wolfspraulbut for our volumes, oh well... :-) I rather spend the tiny money we have on where it matters from a freedom perspective. we have to grow it that way.02:45
wolfspraulno I mean the metal enclosure02:45
wolfspraulif you break open the LCM (I doubt you can disassemble it without breaking it), you will see many more parts inside :-)02:45
wolfspraulso the LCM is also called an 'LCM module'02:46
wolfspraulsame as the 'RF modules' Werner doesn't like02:46
wolfspraulfiddling with any of this costs a lot of money. and may not net much on the freedom side.02:47
wolfspraulso first, let's see what really new/innovative things we can get going on the freedom side. Then we find the most cost-effective way to build a nice case around it.02:47
wolfspraulwhen you work in that order of things, you look at the LCM size later (or maybe together with mechanical), because you don't assume you can customize that part anyway02:48
kyakok, you have the plan and as long as i see you stick to it.. this will lead to success eventually02:48
wolfspraulhe :-) does it sound like that.02:49
wolfspraulwell then, good!02:49
wolfspraulyes I need to stay away from things that just cost money and create no free innovations02:49
wolfspraulwe first have to create free innovations, they need to generate money, and that money can then be spent to buy whatever shiny box02:50
kyakyes, this is what i'm talking about - you have a strategy :)02:50
wolfspraulit's amazing to see though how smartphone lcm resolutions are going up02:51
wolfspraulseems like a cold war arms race02:51
wolfspraulI don't even follow in detail anymore, it's all just going up up up it seems02:51
wolfspraulour 320x240 does look decidedly 80'ish, I agree02:51
kyakwolfspraul: it's not just the resolution.. my Nokia N73, having the same 320x240 can display much smaller, cleaner and nicer fonts. In fact, putty can display 80x24 terminal just fine03:00
kyakbut ok, no more moaning :")03:01
wolfspraulkyak: oh we have much nicer fonts now, are those included in your critique already?03:04
kyakyeah, i have the setfont2 installed, and now the terminal is 50x24 if i remember correctly03:05
wolfspraulthat's another thing - I totally want to max out everything our current Ben hardware can do.03:05
wolfspraulbut it's still not good enough?03:05
kyakno :)03:05
kyakwe need 80x24 - most console apps are working like this03:06
wolfspraulthat's the default font now because we felt it's the best compromise between readability and amount of characters on screen03:06
kyaki mean, they are designed to work with at least 80x2403:06
wolfspraulthere are smaller fonts too you can enable with setfont2 I think03:06
kyakyeah, i know..03:06
kyakcan't work for a long time with 4x8 font :003:07
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ben-dispshell-outside-100um is done. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-scans/1462d9d03:29
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ben-dispshell-inside-1mm is done. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-scans/656442303:33
viricsomeone here use kicad, right?03:45
wpwraksure :)03:47
viricit does not work for me03:47
viricIt says 'eeschema not found', when I click on it03:47
wpwrakdid you compile it from sources ? or install some packahe ?03:48
viricit looks only in .,/usr/bin,/usr/local/bin,/usr/local/kicad/bin03:48
wpwrakdid you "make install" ?03:48
viricI'll go on replacing those strings... I did not install into /usr03:49
wpwrakit should find it in /usr/local/bin03:49
viricbut I don't have it there03:49
wpwrak(that's the default)03:49
viricI did not follow the default :)03:49
wpwrakah :)03:49
viricI expected it to respect CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX03:51
wpwrakmaybe you'll run into similar problems with components (symbols) and modules (footprints)03:51
viric"KiCad can be installed in '/usr' or '/usr/local'." says the manual03:51
viricYes, I already found the trouble with components (because I have eeschema in the path and I can run it)03:52
wpwrakfor once, documentation that's correct ;-)03:52
viricit will get in trouble if you have both one in /usr and in /usr/local03:52
wpwrakit will just pick one of the two :)03:53
viricI'll fix that with a 'sed' string :)03:53
viricI package it for a distro, so I have to do the things right03:54
wpwrakah, nice. which one ?03:55
wpwrakaah, of course ! :)03:55
viricI also use its build system to build for the nanonote03:55
viricnix-build -A prboom.hostDrv nanonote.nix03:55
wpwrakthen we'll be able to run kicad on the ben, to view its own schematics :)03:56
wpwrakthen a little makefile, and out come little new nanonotes :)03:57
viricwpwrak: I've to send schematics to a person. I hope kicad will work well for that04:18
rafakyak: you just need to use 80x24?07:52
rafaor you could work with a bit less07:52
rafakyak: if so, you can try this : http://fz.hobby-site.org/hp660lx/nn/rxvt-5x7-font.jpg07:54
kyakrafa: 80x24 is the least usable, i think07:54
rafakyak: we have added xorg fonts so ou can run a terminal with the font you wish07:55
kyakrafa: looks good, but as i remember keymap is broken in rxvt07:55
rafathat would let you test07:55
rafakyak: rxvt keyboard broken?07:55
kyaklike function keys, or "Red arrow" ?07:55
kyakin Jlime07:55
rafabeta 307:55
rafahas rxvt with keyboard working07:56
rafafn key07:56
rafared arrow07:56
kyakneed to have a look then, thanks :)07:56
rafaall is okey07:56
rafakyak: when you run terminal in beta3 it will use a bigger font07:56
rafaif you want to change that just edit /usr/bin/rxvt.sh07:57
rafawith the font you wish to test07:57
kyakok, thanks for the hint07:57
rafakyak: the pic shows the 5x7 font07:57
viricwpwrak: Have you tried printing schematics in kicad?07:58
viricwpwrak: they look quite bad07:58
rafakyak: okey, if you do some tests with different fonts tell us which is useful for you so we can use the same :) (there are several fonts in xorg fonts installed)07:58
kyakmkey :)08:00
kyakthat also gives a chance to have full support of utf-8 in rxvt08:01
kyakmight be less painfull than linux console08:01
wpwrakviric: hmm, maybe try "plotting" them ?08:01
viricwpwrak: I'll try08:01
viricwpwrak: right, much better! Thank you!08:02
wpwrak(sending schematics) oh yes. you need to know which files to send, though. well, kicad has a "send everything you need" command. not sure if it works well. i generally don't trust such things much :)08:02
viricI don't need to send something editable by now08:04
wpwrakah, postscripts or pdfs are easy08:06
wpwrakwolfspraul: hmm, what's actually the reason for not even considering small layout changes for the next bens ? fear of introducing a stupid bug ? lack of control of the process ? (so a small change would be expensive to implement, e.g., because you'd have to go via the layout house)08:14
wolfspraulit creates too much work, too much cost08:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: (just read carlos' comment. and i very much agree with the "USB as soon as humanly possible" point)08:15
wpwrakhmm, if you changes, say, a label in the silk screen, would that already create this sort of work ?08:16
wpwraki understand that risky changes are costly. but there's a certain amount of things you can usually change at minimum risk. particularly if you get it reviewed. not sure if routing usb to test points would be among the "easy" changes.08:17
wolfspraulyes sure. too many people and vendors involved. it will not happen.08:18
wolfspraulwhat is Carlos point? and where?08:18
wpwrakah, so you don't just send a new set of gebers to the pcb fab08:18
wpwrakon the list, latest mail "IMO we must provide the USB host lines as Test points in the next run." (unclear whether he means "Ben" or "Ben II"/"Ya", though)08:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think the frustration everyone feels with USB host is the same you have with my almost readable schematics. so close yet so far :)08:48
wolfspraulyes agreed _but_ ... it has been discussed many times. we have tried to explain how we got to where we are, and what the priorities are.08:52
wolfspraulI can send some letters to Santa Claus too...08:52
wpwrak;-) i understand perfectly well that you don't want to make expensive/risky changes now. what i don't understand is why this means "no change at all".08:54
wolfspraulso on the Ben, it will not happen08:55
wolfspraulthe Ben production process still uses proprietary software. otherwise we couldn't produce at all.08:55
wolfspraulwith SIE we are just starting to build up more testing software now, which will be helpful for future NanoNote runs as well08:55
wpwrakand that's proprietary software you don't have ?08:55
wolfspraulyes but the vendors we are working with, that are making the PCB, SMT, assembly and testing, cannot make changes unless the volumes are much higher08:56
wolfspraulit's just uneconomical08:56
wolfspraulwe are going in circles with this. The Ben is a starting point. We knew some of its deficiencies before starting (such as the lack of USB host). Others we found out later.08:57
wolfspraulwith the help of the Ben, we get enough momentum into this to be ready for an economical Ya production of a product that (hopefully, if we worked well), has less deficiencies than the Ben08:57
wpwraksure, sure. but where exactly *is* the cost of the change ? we're not talking about tearing the ben another hole ;-)08:58
wolfsprauldon't know I never asked or even thought about it. Maybe once you work with all these people and vendors for so long at some point some numbers are just so obviously off it's not worth to talk about...08:59
wolfspraula normal OEM has a MOQ of 10K08:59
wolfspraullet's just start there08:59
wolfspraulbecause we started Qi hardware in the middle of a massive recession, we negotiated it down to 3k09:00
wolfspraulfrom there we negotiated further down to 3 'shipments' of 1k each09:00
wolfspraulnow, if you zoom into the prices, you will realize really everybody is working with zero margins. literally.09:00
wolfspraulthe entire SMT + assembly/testing costs ca. 3.50 USD09:01
wolfspraulthat's about 300 people working together there to make this happen09:01
wolfspraulso 1 cent / NanoNote for each one09:01
wpwrakso your concern is that they would be upset if you made a change in a deal where you're already stretching things. even if the change is perfectly safe and no extra work for them, they may still bark at the sheer concept. is it that ?09:01
wolfspraulcan you please give them a break at some point. they also need to eat and sleep once in a while. and cannot 'skip' eating for a few days or weeks because some customers couldn't do the math right :-)09:01
wolfspraulit's just impossible09:02
wolfspraulthere are even no people to communicate these 'perfectly safe' changes to09:02
wolfspraulevery new lot in every storage causes administrative overhead09:02
wolfspraulthe only reason we can make 900 Ben is that we are massively sharing stuff with much larger runs09:03
wolfspraulour 1k order every 6 months is just a blip on the screen09:03
wpwrakso when you want to make 1000 more units, you don't send an order to a pcb house that makes the boards for you but you go to some one-stop-shopping house that already has the gerbers, case design, etc., and will then make the bens for you, with the actual ordering of pcbs and the like invisible to you ?09:03
wolfspraulnot invisible, we know all the people, all the way to the vendors09:04
wolfspraulbut you cannot strangle your business partners to death09:04
wolfsprauljust look at the numbers, it's scary09:04
wpwrakis it them who order/make the pcbs ? or do you send them the pcbs and they do the rest ?09:05
wolfspraulthey shouldn't even pickup the phone once - no margin for that :-)09:05
wolfspraulno we buy the entire product09:05
wolfspraulwe work with an ODM essentially09:05
wpwrakokay. i think that's the point that wasn't clear enough.09:06
wolfspraulchanges are possible, but uneconomical09:06
wpwrakand since this is a "3kU in 1kU installments" deal, for all you know, they may already sit on those remaining 2000 PCBs, waiting for your next cheque.09:06
wpwrak(at least conceptually)09:06
wolfspraulnobody has margins, so sourcing is very careful09:07
wolfspraulremember how many people need to be fed in all this09:07
wpwrakyeah, all the things USD 100 can buy you, it's scary :)09:07
wolfspraulyes, and how many people work together on this09:08
wpwraki'm not arguing that you should squeeze your business partners more. what i'm after is understanding where exactly such changes would even be a problem for them. e.g., it wasn't clear that the administrative process also included the pcb design, probably with approvals and related paperwork.09:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: keyboard factory as an example (I know, it's not silk/pcb, but to illustrate my point)09:09
wolfspraulkeyboard factory employs 6000 people09:09
wolfspraulrazor thin margins on everything09:09
wolfspraulthat means every day they have to crank out keyboards09:10
wolfspraulif they dont : no money to buy dinner09:10
wpwrakso it's not order PCBs from X, SMT from Y, cases from Z, send everything to W who then put it into the case09:10
wolfspraulso they need to make 150k / day09:10
wolfspraulnow imagine when the early shift comes in and looks at the plan of the day, and they see 150 tiny 1k orders each09:10
wolfspraulWHAT A SHITTY DAY THAT WILL BE! :-)09:10
wolfsprauland they have to finish all this, time has no mercy09:10
wolfspraulnext day the next 150k need to be produced already09:11
wpwrakthe early shift has it good. there will still be money for lunch ;-)09:11
wolfspraulso those orders, and all their messy little differences and little start/stop problems and what not will be a nightmare09:11
wolfspraulcompare that so a nice day with 3 big orders of 50k each09:11
wolfsprauls/compare that so/compare that to/09:11
wolfspraulsee my point?09:11
wolfspraulso when our 1k order comes in, it's already painful for them09:12
wolfspraulthis was only possible because we started in the middle of the worst recession in a while09:12
wolfspraulso that's keyboards09:12
wolfspraulbut it's the same principle everywhere09:12
wpwrakyes, what wasn't clear is why a 1 k order without changes would be any less painful than a 1 k order with changes.09:12
wolfspraulI think the SMT place needs to make about 4-5k / day to pay the bills09:13
wolfspraulevery minute is work, ah minute. it's optimized to the last second.09:13
wpwrakwhat you're basically saying is that all this is a pipeline and the next 1-2 k are already further down the pipeline.09:13
wolfspraulyou could say it that way09:13
wolfspraulyou can reach into this pipeline and fiddle around09:14
wolfspraulbut it's painful09:14
wpwrakthanks. that was the explanation that was missing :)09:14
wolfsprauland we are already stretching the rules everywhere09:14
wolfspraulwell they are flexible09:14
wolfspraulbut you need to understand their pressure. it's the downside from the low margins and endless optimizations over years.09:14
wolfspraulthese processes are basically continuously being optimized09:15
wolfspraulbut the optimization has negative side-effects of course09:15
wpwrakyes, that's okay. nobody's arguing (so far ;-) about the quantitative side. what was missing was the qualitative side. i.e., why this would be a problem in the first place.09:15
mstevensHow is Qi world these days? Is there a good status update somewhere?09:15
kyakwolfspraul: does it also mean that you would have to order 10k pieces of Ya?09:15
wolfspraulbecause I know the people I work with and I cannot ask them for more favors.09:15
wolfspraulYa will have many interesting challenges.09:16
wolfspraulagain it's not so much 'have to'09:16
wpwrake.g., if you'd order your PCBs yourself and ship them do a "does all the rest" house, then there would be no penalty for making changes (as long as the changes don't introduce bugs, naturally), since it would be just a package with pcbs anyway.09:16
wolfspraulyou can order 1 Ya from me, if you pay 1 million USD I may still produce 'some more' in my backyard and ship you the one you ordered.09:16
wolfspraulso we will see what smart way we find to reuse some Ben stuff, and introduce some new Ya stuff09:17
wpwrakbut since you have a pipeline and you've essentally handed the design over to production, there _is_ a barrier, no matter how small.09:17
wolfspraulthat's why we work with all the Ben vendors one by one09:17
wolfspraulmstevens: no status update, sorry. need to become more active again on the PR side after the summer break :-)09:18
mstevenswolfspraul: alternative question, any cool stuff happening?09:19
wolfspraulmstevens: things are moving in many places, if anything we are spread very thin. Werner has been doing awesome stuff the last 2 months, case scans, 802.15.4 RF work, kicad revision visualizations, counterweights, etc.09:19
wolfspraulMilkymist One, Xue09:19
wolfspraulLars managed to upstream most of the Ben NanoNote kernel in 2.6.3609:19
wolfspraulJlime has much improved software.09:20
mstevensI kinda bought my nanonote on general principles of supporting free gadgets, I look back now and again to see if there's anything fun I can actually do with it :)09:20
wolfspraultry jlime09:20
mstevensI did have it setup as very difficult to use ogg p0layer09:20
mstevenslooks kinda cool09:21
wolfspraulwpwrak: I think in the future we should be in a better position wrt smaller runs. At least we are working towards that.09:22
wolfspraulbut I think mostly because we do the smaller runs ourselves. I think once you work with companies that do very complex work steps for ridiculous little money, you will always pay the price in some way, for example in their inability to process too many changes, if any.09:25
wolfsprauland if you still ask for those changes, you are just going to kill them, which also will not help (they will just refuse your business)09:25
wolfspraulthink about it this way: SMT + assembly/testing = 3.50 USD09:25
wolfspraulso for 3K, that's about 10,000 USD09:25
wolfspraulfor a company that needs to feed 300 people09:26
wolfsprauland then you want to break down even those 10k USD into smaller chunks, and have some special request after the first 2K, and then after the next 4K, and another one after another 2K.09:26
wolfspraulIt's just impossible.09:26
wpwrak(organize small runs yourself) yes, i think that's the key. so you can pick whatever suits your needs best.09:26
wolfspraulthe machine is already so crazy optimized it just cannot do this.09:27
wolfsprauldo you know how much work has to get done for those 10K USD? how much can go wrong? how hard they work for that money? it's insane. It's optimized to the last penny.09:27
wpwrakright now, the volume alone probably doesn't justify going to highly efficient places. even less efficient places would only raise the cost a little. (of course it's nice if you can spare some bucks)09:27
wolfspraulah no09:27
wolfspraulhe he09:27
wolfspraulcosts go up a lot09:28
wolfspraula lot as in A LOT09:28
wpwrakhowever, since you don't have all the pieces of the process under your control, you cannot cherry-pick. so it is all or nothing.09:28
wolfspraulit should get fun later09:28
wolfspraulwe only must resist to make all sorts of changes in components that reduce our ability to cherry-pick later09:29
wpwrakyup. that's one important thing09:29
wpwrake.g., no case parts that require production techniques that haven't been invented yet ;-))09:30
wpwrak(inside joke)09:30
wolfspraulisn't it amazing that 300 people work together and make 1 cent each on the finished product they are collectively working on?09:31
wolfspraulI continue to be amazed by this and thinking about it...09:31
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: 2.5V current sensor added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/136717f09:32
wpwrakbah, in qi-hw we have scores of people who make even 0 cents on the product they're collectively working on. heck, they even pay for it ;-)09:32
wolfsprauland these are very complex processes, with a lot of testing going on, a lot of 'return 2 stations, repair this', rinse and repeat...09:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: so you've out-optimized the chinese :)09:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think it would be good to post an explanation why such small changes are more difficult that one would expect to the list. until now, that point wan't clear even to people who try to have reasonable expectations.09:37
wolfspraulwhat clarified it for you now? the pipeline?09:38
wolfspraulI like that word, fits with reality :-)09:38
wolfspraulyes there is a pipeline, definitely. deep into the vendors.09:38
wpwrakpipeline and that the deal is for more than those 1k units.09:38
wpwrak"deal" or perhaps "understanding"09:39
wolfsprauloh sure. much more. the steel tool, for example, will be maxed out to 250k, no matter what :-)09:39
wolfspraulno matter how many products have to share the same look09:39
wolfspraulwell actually it will be worn out until the tolerances become too big, but they try to manage it well and produce as much as possible09:39
wpwrakand the reason for needing such an arrangement is of course that there are many things you can't go cherry-picking for yet09:39
wpwrak(steel tool) sure, but that only matters if you want to make a case change or when you're not able to get the case parts from another source09:40
wpwrakwe can exclude the case change but the sourcing issue would continue to exist09:40
wpwrak(another source) or without the rest of the package attached to it09:41
wpwraki.e., if you went to the same guys and asked them to make nanonotes with a board you supply, smt and tested, this would be a different kind of deal, with different prices, and maybe they wouldn't even want to do it.09:42
wolfspraulthat's probably what we will do with Ya09:43
wolfspraulin fact we are talking with them already now, to prepare, see who is interested in what, etc.09:43
wpwrakand, most of it, it would be a radical change to what you've negotiated with them for now. nobody likes customers who pay poorly and ask for crazy changes all the time :)09:43
wpwrak(ya) that sounds good09:43
wolfsprauland 'pay poorly and ask for changes all the time' unfortunately is a common habit among electronics industry customers09:44
wolfspraulso everybody is on the lookout09:44
wolfspraulyou want to work with people that make 5 USD a day, no, you not only 'want to' work with them, you absolutely insist to _only_ work with such people09:45
wpwrakright now, you need those "one stop shopping" houses because you can't so the individual steps in a useful way. be it because you lack contacts, expertise, just time to set them up, because they're not available at reasonable cost, whatever.09:45
wpwraks/so the/do the/09:45
wolfsprauland then on top, your orders don't come in as a regular stream, and then on top of that you want these people to understand all sorts of great new ideas you had along the way09:45
wpwrakoh yes. no only ask them crazy stuff, ask them to be _enthusistic_ about it, too ;-))09:46
wolfspraulmostly for Ya we are lacking production testing software, a solid SOP document (IKEA style) that someone can walk through09:46
wolfspraulfor the vendors we have established contacts and connections everywhere, continue a bit here and there, second source etc.09:47
wpwrakmake sure you look suitable disappointed in them if they don't follow your presentation of radical changes with standing ovations ;-))09:47
wolfspraulfor example I will try to find a smaller keyboard factory, not just that scary one with 6000 employees09:47
kristianpaul08:17 < wolfspraul> so we will see what smart way we find to reuse some Ben stuff, and introduce some new Ya stuff09:48
wolfspraulah no, it's all just simple math. and if they don't have enough money to eat, well, they will simply not do the work. big surprise :-)09:48
wpwrak(keyboard) as an aside, i'd love to see that get customizable. that could be a key [no pun intended] for OEM applications.09:48
wolfspraulyes so I want to find smaller and more flexible (he he) keyboard makers09:48
wolfspraulof course I still only want to pay 3.50 USD / keyboard09:49
wolfsprauljust kidding. Like I said I am able to follow simple math. And if the work needs so and so many minutes, and so and so many people are involved, then the price will be such and such or no keyboard.09:49
wpwrakas long as everyone's an asshole, if you just treat them a little less nasty than the rest, they'll think you're mother theresa ;-))09:49
wolfspraulI try to be very open upfront about our volumes.09:50
wolfsprauland so far I think everybody appreciates that and actually is very supportive of the project.09:50
wolfspraulin the meantime, I do not expect impossible things like workers paying 1 USD / hour for the privilege of working on my product :-)09:51
wpwrakwell, low cost is good for the baseline. i don't care much about it for customizations. so, ideally, you'd have both paths - a design that can be produced efficiently in medium to large quantities, and that still allows small-volume customized runs.09:51
wolfspraulyes correct!09:51
wolfspraulexactly my thinking, hopefully we slowly get there - as we get better to make small runs.09:52
wpwrakthe key for the latter being modularity, absence of crazily difficult elements, open design, and a resonably open/documented production process.09:52
wolfspraulall agree09:52
wolfspraulso the most interesting decisions from Ben to Ya will be what we change, what we don't change. the criteria.09:52
wolfspraulon the mechanical side, I do not like some of the glued stuff.09:53
kristianpaulwolfspraul: what is a small for you in numbers?09:53
wolfspraulI do not like the plastic clips around the frame.09:53
wolfspraulkristianpaul: you mean small run?09:53
wolfspraulanything < 100009:53
wolfspraul500 is maybe in the middle09:54
wpwrak(mech) i'd go for screws, just to keep things simple09:54
wolfspraulbut < 500 is definitely typically called 'small run'09:54
wpwrak(mech) not sure about glue. seems to be unavoidable for some things. but agreed, the less the better09:54
wolfspraulin other words the normal production SMT/assembly places cannot process such small orders. or don't want to, because they are over-optimized as I explained above.09:55
wpwrak(mech) if you can get control of the case making process, then some of these things will happen just naturally, because you'll be forced to keep things simple ;-)09:55
wolfspraulyes, that would be great09:55
kristianpaulwolfspraul: you may end building a small SMY/assembly factotry some how09:56
kristianpaulwell not build as the sense of make09:56
wolfsprauloh no. just the knowledge. documentation, software, etc.09:56
wolfspraulall freely documented and licensed of course.09:57
wolfspraulanybody can use this to manufacture.09:57
wolfspraulI will absolutely 100% not start to buy my own pick and place machines etc.09:57
wpwraknow, if just someone who knows about mechanical stuff would take the lead there. you can of course wait until i get around do doing that, because it does bother me to not have control over this type of things, but someone with the right experience and the right tools should be able to beat me by a decade or two ...09:58
kristianpaulbut is soo hard get small runs on china?09:58
kristianpauli guess there is market for everthing..09:58
wolfspraulyes sure but then it gets expensive09:58
kristianpaulahh true the expensive balance..09:59
wpwraknot sure if a basic smt line is really that expensive. it would have its benefits for prototype runs.09:59
kristianpaulwhy not just got cheap SMT and document more assembly09:59
wpwrakand an automated line that can do tens of prototypes can also do 1000 units. shifts the point where you need to go to the bigger houses.09:59
kristianpaulwell i must leave (real life work)10:01
wpwrakbut let's talk about this when your main worry is where to invest all the money ;-)10:01
wolfspraulwpwrak: it's not just the machines, it's the entire company and their people you need to think about.10:07
wolfspraulcompanies are targeting different customers, and have the appropriate staff and technical equipment for whatever they are targeting10:07
wolfspraulthere is a lot of diversity in PCB and SMT houses10:08
wolfspraulso it's not about what they 'can' (theoretically) do, based on outside speculation. it's about what they have been optimized for, and are competitive at.10:08
wolfspraulsome of them are upgrading their equipment, because it's part of their strategy and how they operate.10:09
wolfspraulsome don't. they will just be setup with equipment X, and then they will run down that equipment, and produce whatever that equipment is best suited for, at the lowest possible prices.10:09
wpwrak(company and people) sure. if you have an smt line, you'd need someone in charge of maintaining and operating it. "operating" also in the sense of making incoming designs match10:09
wolfsprauland those places don't even need anyone to think about what 'else' would be possible, if they only added this or that 'little' thing. It wasn't setup like this. The point was to produce ABC at rock bottom prices.10:10
wolfspraulothers can try other strategies, but that place may be using this strategy. end of story.10:10
wpwrakso that's something useful if you do many small runs10:10
wpwrakyup, that's MP again10:11
wpwraki'm thinking more of R&D and customization10:11
wolfspraulsure, I just try to explain why sometimes seemingly simple/little things turn out to be so hard.10:11
wolfspraulit depends on whom you are presenting your 'little' things to, and how they have been setup10:12
wpwrak"little" changes also need to be in relation to the money they can make with it ;-)10:12
wolfspraulthis problem only exists because of an almost insane optimization down to the last penny10:12
wpwraksmt fab != university of manfacturing ;-)10:12
wolfspraulso even some common sense things cannot be done sometimes, the people are just not there that would understand _anything_ :-)10:13
wolfspraulso while an SMT place like Minbo that we used for the Milymist One RC1 run (6 pieces) can make larger runs, it's unusual for them to get such orders, or at least not for too long, because they will be too expensive10:14
wolfspraulthey have all these expensive people walking around the floor...10:14
wolfspraulso the brains of these people are under-utilized if a 5k run is being processed. and at some point even their choice of equipment may not be ideal for larger runs, or it may not be configured well for larger runs, etc.10:15
wolfspraulthere is too much optimization going on for 1 super-automated machine to be able to scale from 1 to 1 million and always be competitive with companies (and real people) that have specialized10:16
wpwrakwow, 6 pieces is tiny indeed. how do you even feed pick and place efficiently for that ? :)10:16
wolfspraulin SMT you basically pay for time10:16
wolfspraulis like you rent the floor, by the hour (roughly)10:16
wpwrakyeah, there are different classes of machines10:16
wpwrakso you do R&D runs in .cn or in .tw ?10:17
wolfspraulwe are also cherry-picking between Taiwan and China :-)10:18
wpwrakhehe :)10:18
Action: kristianpaul back :)10:36
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: Fixing some examples, adding scripts for compiling xilinx libs with ghdl http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/acf516e10:42
wpwrakkristianpaul: you have an efficient way of dealing with that "real work" :)10:43
wpwrakhmm, thunderstorm. and risk of brownouts. luckily i only have a medium sized scan running.10:45
kristianpaulwpwrak: yeah was fast :)11:07
kristianpaulactyually i cant complaint with my work at all11:07
kristianpaulyeah better said pay work instead of real work11:07
bartbesso on the mailing list x11 forwarding was mentioned12:08
bartbesso I was wondering12:08
bartbesare there any applications in the image that have x backends?12:08
zearperhaps it was about jlime?12:13
bartbesoh, that is not what I mean12:14
bartbesI mean I was just wondering whether there already is an application in the image having a (working) x backend12:15
bartbesso I can test12:15
bartbesfor when I ever want to use it12:15
bartbesit seems SDL is compiled without x support12:15
wpwrakgrr. involuntary desktop cleanup by x server crash :-(12:17
lekernelyou see: X is junk12:22
lekernelthat's what I've always been saying12:23
lekernelinstability is only one of its numerous problems (though I will admit is has improved since XFree86)12:23
wpwraklekernel: i think it's some ubuntu depedency problem. never had this kind of trouble until after the last major upgrade. i should probably reinstall from scratch. it's probably using some old incompatible driver/library.12:39
wpwraklekernel: the holy grail analogy is nice ;)13:22
kyaki don't understand.. trying to install latest Jlime from within Ben, it hangs at mkfs.ext2 (i.e. mkfs.ext2 is doing nothing). It's strange, because I've done this several times before..13:32
kyaki'm going to install the latest image from 26th of August instead of the image i just built myself13:47
rafakyak: me here for a wil13:47
kyakrafa: the prob is, i don't have the microSD card reader, so always have to install Jlime from within openwrt13:48
kyakand for some reason it fails this time./.13:48
rafakyak: ah... and now mkfs.ext2 freezes? :(13:48
rafaare the partitions okey? i mean.. i would not know what to check anyway13:49
rafahave you had patience? :)13:49
rafai mean. if it run for a long time13:49
kyakpartition is ok, i just unmounted it13:49
kyakand i was patient, though it usually only takes seconds13:50
kyakflashin rootfs now, let's see if it'll help13:50
rafaare you flashing openwrt ?13:51
rafahave you used the same kernel and openwrt last time that mkfs.ext2 worked okey?13:51
kyakno, definitely not.. i reflashed since that13:52
rafaah... okey.. so there are a lot things to check maybe.. kernel version, kernel support for sd, ext2, etc. mkfs.ext2 versions, if there was swap last time..13:54
kyakthese things are pretty much the same.. could be some mess with libraries during build13:54
rafayou can try jlime on nand as wellif you know how to reflash easily13:55
kyaknah, i'll better keep Jlime on SD :)13:55
rafaif your build lets you :)13:55
kyakit is absolutely the same14:04
kyaklast two lines in strace are14:04
kyakioctl(0, TIOCNXCL, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 014:05
kyakioctl(1, TIOCNXCL, {B38400 opost isig icanon echo ...}) = 014:05
kyakthis is when run without arguments14:05
kyakand then nothing14:05
kyakwill flash 2010-06-15 image now14:15
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Modifying USB H-D http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/d02e78314:16
kyak...and it works!14:29
kyakopenwrt-xburst is badly broken at some point -\14:30
kyaki suppose it is after switching to a next uClibc version14:30
kyaknow unpacking Jlime14:36
kyakrafa: btw, Jlime's rootfs already includes /boot/uImage. Is it as expected?14:42
kyakrafa: 5x7 font is not really readable in rxvt14:49
kyaksetfont2 from openwrt-packages makes use of Ben's special LCD much better14:50
virichow special it is?14:50
kyakspecial like this:14:50
kyak .14:50
kyak. .14:51
kyak .14:51
kyakmeans, pixels are in chess order14:51
kyaknot one under another14:51
kyakrafa: great job with other apps and fixing the keymap in rxvt!14:52
kyakthis claendar looks interesting :)14:53
kyakcurses based calendar - definitely my outlook and gmail friends will get jealous :)14:54
kyakpower button now works, too!15:01
viricIf you see a SIGBUS...15:07
viricwhat do you think?15:07
virica bad alignment memory access?15:07
mthmost likely, yes15:10
bartbeslooking at sdl's makefile it seems x support is built16:48
bartbesso.. how do I use it?16:48
mthon libsdl.org, look up the documentation of the SDL envvars16:54
mththere is one to specify which video driver to use16:54
mthprobably something like SDL_VIDEODRIVER=x11, but look it up to be sure16:54
mthyou also need DISPLAY set to use X16:55
bartbesdone that16:56
bartbesno result16:56
bartbes(using X forwarding..16:57
bartbesnow that I think of it might not be enabled in my conf)16:57
bartbeswhere is the nn's ssh.conf?17:00
bartbesI don't even see the ssh server..17:04
bartbesah dropbear17:06
bartbessh: /usr/X11R6/bin/xauth: not found17:08
Ornotermeswpwrak: i'm etching a couple of breakout boards right now18:14
Ornotermesi have always had a bit problem with smudged lines, but now it seems to work18:15
uncloudedOrnotermes: can we have a photo of your boards once they're etched and cleaned?18:23
Ornotermesshure, but i can't fix the shape tonight18:25
wpwrakOrnotermes: excellent ! ;-)18:48
wpwrakOrnotermes: now we should have all this in KiCad :)18:48
Ornotermeswell, it's done... a few shorts but that was kind of expected :P18:49
wpwrak0.2 mm is plenty :)18:50
wpwrakyou could make a little board with ten LEDs for tuxbrain18:54
wpwrakbtw, brilliant idea to make a board for uSD, congratulations !18:56
Ornotermessome more images18:58
wpwraknice lighting of the acid ;-)19:00
Ornotermesthanks :)19:00
Ornotermeshad my flashlight behind it to see the progress better19:00
wpwrakdid you change the track on the right edge ?19:00
Ornotermesno not yet19:00
wpwrak(flashlight) ;-))19:01
Ornotermesi will change that and a couple of other things later19:02
Ornotermesand thanks wpwrak :)19:02
wpwrakhave you used kicad yet ? would be nice to have all this accessible with a Free tool.19:07
Ornotermesmaybe it could be an idea to add another uSD slot to NN in the future, but as an expansion port with SPI/I2C/GPIO instead of sd(even if could be bit banged)19:07
wpwrakyes. maybe the next cpu will even have two sd interfaces, so each could get its own.19:08
wpwrakmake the second slot face towards an open internal space (battery) and voila19:09
wpwrakalso, make it a friction lock, not the push-to-lock/unlock type, so the card can be flush with the edge'19:09
wpwrakalso, there's nothing preventing anyone from routing sd and spi to the slot. maybe with an NC resistor in the part so that one can choose whether to join them or not19:10
Ornotermeswpwrak: but for hardware expansion i think SPI and I2C is most interesting19:10
wpwrakyup, agreed19:11
Ornotermesalso, i have an idea of a special conecor for the usb19:11
Ornotermesso when nothing is connected the usb goes staight to external, but if one connects a internal board (like 2port hub + bluetooth) usb goes to the hub and one goes to external and the rest can be used by devices on the internal expansion board19:13
Ornotermesbut it would probably require more space19:14
wpwrakhmm, sounds complicated. could also cause problems with signal integrity19:15
Ornotermesmaybe, but it would make it possible to add internal usb devices, and still have the port avaliable19:16
wpwrakthe whole usb setup may change with the next cpu anyway. so there's a chance that there will be an extra port we could use for such things19:21
wpwrakbut details on that cpu are still scarce19:21
wpwrakOrnotermes: do you have the coordinates/sizes for the uSD card in mm ?19:37
wpwrakOrnotermes: i'd like to make a footprint with fped (for kicad)19:37
Ornotermeswpwrak: not really, but most pads are 3x2 mm (i think)19:39
wpwrakthey must be something like 3x0.9, with a 0.2 mm gap. some are a bit longer, maybe 3.3x0.919:43
wpwrakbut i was thinking more of the package outline19:43
Ornotermesi'm not sure of my measures yet, but you can take a look at the high res version of my board layout19:45
wpwrakhmm, but that still doesn't give me measures19:46
wpwrakah well, i'll just draw my own and see what happens. your scan is a great starting point19:47
Ornotermesits 1200dpi, so in a way it does ;)19:48
Ornotermesand uSD is 11 x 15 mm19:48
Ornotermesseems like my board might have been just a bit bigger than it should19:52
Ornotermesbut it might be a printer problem19:53
wpwrakthey're usually very precise19:54
Ornotermesmaybe look at it tomorrow, could be i who set dpi or something wrong too19:57
wpwrakhow wide is the board you made ?19:57
Ornotermesi draw it 11mm19:58
Ornotermesbut the lines was too thin to survive toner transfer and etching19:58
wpwrakah, i see19:58
Ornotermeswpwrak: http://gallery.slashhome.se/main.php?g2_itemId=2885&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 there is higher res but my uplink is a bit slow20:02
wpwrakdarn. indeed a bit too big20:05
wpwrakwhat pitch did you use ?20:05
wpwrakdistance from pad center to pad center20:07
Ornotermesshould be 1.2 mm20:07
Ornotermes0.5 pad, 0.2 space, 0.5 pad20:07
wpwraki think it's 1.1 mm20:08
Ornotermesyeah, might be20:08
wpwrakyes, 1.1 mm20:08
wpwrak1.1 mm is what i got from your scan. also, when looking at a uSD holder, the pin spacing is 1.1 mm20:09
Ornotermesoh, ok20:09
Ornotermesthen i have some changes to do20:11
Ornotermeswpwrak: and if you make a KiCad version i happily link to it20:11
wpwrakgreat. i'll have it in a bit. the outline already looks good20:12
wpwraknow .. which pin is #1 :)20:13
Ornotermescounting from the cut corner20:14
wpwrakyup. agrees with what the card holders say20:15
Ornotermesgood :)20:16
Ornotermesi changed the pad size, looks much more like a real card :)20:21
wpwrakgreat. my footprint is about to get ready ...20:23
wpwraklet's see what reality has to say about these dimensions ...20:30
wpwrakthe line along the back is the clearance needed for push-pull holders20:31
wpwrakwell, to be more precise, the ben's case, according to my measurements :)20:32
Ornotermeswpwrak: looks good20:37
wpwrakOrnotermes: how do you transcibe your last name into ASCII ? Lindstroem ?20:41
Ornotermesthat or Lindstrom20:41
wpwrakwhich variant do you prefer ?20:42
Ornotermesi dont really care but i think Linstrom would sound less weird than people trying to pronounce Lindstroem :P20:43
Ornotermesoh well time to sleep20:47
wpwrakeurope ?20:47
Ornotermes2:45 in the morning20:47
wpwrakthe best time to work ;-)20:48
wpwrakparticularly if it involves a dremel ;-)20:48
Ornotermesespecially when you live in a apertment ;)20:48
Ornotermesbut now good night20:49
wpwrakyeah :) make sure your neighbours don't forget you :)20:49
wpwraksweet dreams ! :)20:49
uncloudedhow would software on the Ben control the uSD lines?21:20
wpwrakunclouded: it could write directly to the port registers21:21
wpwrakor you can make a kernel driver that does all this properly :)21:22
uncloudedwould it interfere with the part of the kernel that interfaces with uSD cards?21:23
wpwrakyou just override it ;-)21:23
uncloudedis it built as a module and I can simply unload the module and then write to the port registers?21:24
wpwrakyou can check: lsmod21:24
uncloudedok.  what would the module be called?21:27
wpwraksomething mmc, mci, maybe sd21:28
uncloudeddoesn't seem so then.  With OpenWRT 2010-06-15 there are a lot of ALSA modules ( snd_*), "tun" and "ks7010".  nothing else21:31
wpwrakdoesn't sound like it then. you can also disable things via sysfs to some extent, but i don't think this really helps in this case21:34
uncloudedwould it be silly to insert a uSD breakout board wired to a project while the MMC driver is still active?21:36
wpwrakhmm. good question :) depends a lot on what the board does21:37
wpwrakgenerally, nothing untoward should happen21:37
wpwrakeven if you short things21:37
uncloudeddoes uSD do current limiting like EIA-232?21:37
uncloudedis that why it's OK to accidentally short things?21:38
wpwraksome SD do current limiting. but i kinda doubt the TM2301N is good at it (Q4, on the MEMORY sheet)21:40
wpwrakit's okay because you shouldn't be able to short power directly. and I/Os usually have a high internal resistance. 100 Ohm or so. enough that nothing bad happens.21:40
uncloudedah, ok.  just don't short Vcc to GND ;)21:42
wpwrakfortunately, these two are at fixed positions :)21:43
uncloudedQi Hardware is the number one search result for "TM2301N" with Yahoo21:44
rafakyak: hey21:45
wpwrakunclouded: victory ! ;-)21:46
wpwrakunclouded: there's a link here: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Inventory21:47
rafakyak: power button worked in beta2 as well :) BTW, colors have an important effect on fonts as well.21:47
wpwrak(very very useful page)21:47
uncloudedwpwrak: maybe we should use one of every electronics component we can find so we get all this free publicity ;)21:47
rafakyak: if you want to know more names of xorg font read the /usr/lib/X11/fonts/misc/fonts.alias file on nn21:48
wpwrakunclouded: and make mortal enemies at every fab ;-)21:49
kristianpaulhey i love this side i always found something usefull there http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/IO-Port-Programming.html22:34
wpwrakkristianpaul: you can try this - works also on the ben  http://svn.openmoko.org/developers/werner/poke/22:50
wpwrakalso useful for checking how things are set up without having to wade through half of the kernel sources22:51
kristianpaulheh i just discover UML exists few minutes ago :p22:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: seems that we have found our extension card connector ;)22:52
kristianpaulwpwrak: the tiny PCB on the lists?22:52
wpwrakkristianpaul: User-Mode-Linux ? Ugly Modelling Language ?22:52
wpwrakyup. or rather the uSD card holder22:53
kristianpaulwpwrak: linux thing :)22:53
wpwrakuml is kewl. are they still maintaining it ? i once wrote a little simulator on top of it (umlsim). didn't keep maintaining it, though.22:55
Action: kristianpaul erase UML from his mind22:56
kristianpaulqemu is our ffriend :)22:56
wpwraknaw, the simulator knew about kernel internals. it could affect time as well. so you could simulate, say, a wget over a link with a certain delay.22:57
kristianpaulwell i have a nanonote whos needs a sofware simulator ;)22:58
wolfspraulwpwrak: yes I saw it. sounds good, let's see what comes out of it. Too many things going on for me right now :-)22:58
kristianpaulre-use, look look, more free pins more free pinds, i think i will love this ben board :D23:02
wpwrakit's a pretty cool idea. i could kick myself for not having had it myself :)23:02
kristianpaulthats why micro-sd exists...23:02
kristianpaulbut some how is not so wide spread as we wish23:02
kristianpauldamm usb !23:03
wpwrakyeah, in my mind i had it permanently assigned to storage. so it wasn't really "available" for anything.23:03
kristianpaulthats happens23:03
kristianpaulas me for usb :)23:03
kristianpaulwell about ethernet with this SPI chip i dint sugguest use that port bacuase i relly need run debian from sd23:05
kristianpaulso i cant kill the port23:06
kristianpaulevertully i'll try the SPI  bit-bang slowness (1Mps is enought for me  )23:06
wpwrakthe jz4760 might have up to three mmc controllers. so we could have plenty of slots23:09
kristianpaulbut thats will no be considered posible until the other 1K ben run, no?23:10
kristianpaulour SoC now is jz4740 or do i'm confused,( again?...)23:11
wpwrakjz4720. jz4740 has the same core but different bond-out. (more signals)23:12
wpwrakjz4760 may be a possible future.23:12
wpwrakwolfspraul: one more project for the commit reporter: kicad-libs23:35
wolfspraulwpwrak: kicad-libs should be hooked up23:51
--- Wed Sep 1 201000:00

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