#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-08-30

wpwrakphew. refactoring shell scripts is evil work00:55
wolfspraulwpwrak: are you moving them all to one location?01:06
wolfspraulor just internal refactoring for now?01:06
wpwrakinternal refactoring. so far, the whole git checkout, profile cleanup, eeschema --plot, postscript hacking, gs ps->ppm, and ppm rotation all happened in a single script01:08
wpwrakthat one also took care of caching postscript between full-sized image and thumbnail generation01:08
wpwraknow that i want to make pdfs, i need to reach into the process, at the point where there are unmodified postscripts around01:09
wolfspraulah OKkkkkkkkkk01:09
wolfspraul(sorry kbd...)01:10
wpwraknow i've broken that megascript down into its parts and converted the script to a wrapper that does exactly what it did before01:10
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Split gitsch2ppm into its constituents. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b3f201401:10
wpwrakhere it is :)01:10
wpwrakthe next step is to convert the callers of the wrapper to use the "inner" scripts instead of the wrapper. and then i can play with the postscripts.01:11
wpwraki'll save the great unifying move for another day :)01:12
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Merged the functionality of gitsch2ppm into schhist2web. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/800577303:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Sheet names now link to the sheet's PDF. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/337f13a03:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Generate a PDF with the all the current sheets. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/ab89a0003:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Commit entries now show date date, not the hash. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6bef1d903:47
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: We now generate and link delta PDFs with the state(s) of the sheet. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/66cf6a205:08
wpwrakqi-bot --append "(in progress)"05:09
qwebirc86457hi all05:57
qwebirc86457i have a short question. I want to reflash my ben but I get the error: Error - can't read bulk data from Ingenic device:-11005:58
qwebirc86457can someone help me? What should I do?05:59
xiangfuqwebirc86457: if you use the USB-CABLE with NanoNote? make sure there is no USB-HUB06:01
kyakalways wanted to ask, why there must not be hub? is this due to such design of Ben's USB?06:02
qwebirc86457Yes, I use the USB cable which come with Nanonote06:05
qwebirc86457lsusb says me ID 601a:474006:05
uncloudedhave you read http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/How_to_reflash yet?06:06
qwebirc86457yes, I read06:08
qwebirc86457I directly connected the ben nanonote to my linux laptop06:09
kyakmight be that in fact USB connectors on your laptop is USB hub06:10
uncloudedsome laptops have a USB hub inside them so I'm told.  the only way that worked for me was the uSD method.  do you have a uSD card?06:10
kyaktry all connectors one by one06:10
qwebirc86457ok tnx. I'll do06:10
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/3c4770611:41
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: FPGA has been splited http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/107ffeb11:47
rafa__wpwrak: we are in warsaw now18:07
wpwrakrafa__: whee ! how is it ? i've never been there myself18:26
zearit's awesome18:26
zeari am here 22 years now, it's totally rad18:26
zearwell, poland, not exactly warsaw ;)18:27
rafa__wpwrak: it is nice so far.. but we have not checked a lot of places18:29
rafa__we were sleeping :)18:29
wpwrakrafa__: drinking should be good there ;-)18:30
rafa__wpwrak: we had bad news though18:30
wpwrakoh ?18:30
rafa__zear: i forgot to tell you18:30
rafa__zear: wpwrak when we were in our way to madrid airport18:30
rafa__somebody opened the backpack of Miriam (zear: my gf)18:31
wpwrakargh !!!18:31
zeardid they steal anything?18:31
rafa__and the new nanonote was stolen18:31
rafa__also a little pck of euros coins18:31
zearwell, they will have hard time selling the nanonote18:32
rafa__zear: yes.. the nanonote would be a gift for some guy in BA18:32
wpwrakat least the thieves know what to go for18:32
rafa__zear: they will not use it much18:32
wpwrakwell, now we just have to wait for this guy to show up here with questions ...18:32
rafa__wpwrak: :)18:32
rafa__but no nice18:32
zearthough this is a very sad news18:32
rafa__we were to the tuxbrain town to buy it18:32
rafa__so it has a little of story18:33
rafa__and it ended fast18:33
zearshould blizzard consider himself lucky that he's getting one by post?18:33
rafa__zear: maybe.. no idea18:33
zearthis is a shame a thief stolen a nanonote, he won't even know how to use it18:33
zearand nanonote costs a lot, too18:34
rafa__zear: wpwrak : we also saw at tuxbrain place the nanowar version18:34
zearrafa__, just be careful with the dingoo i'm donating to you ;)18:34
rafa__with the modified jlime version inside18:34
rafa__and videos of the metl band ;)18:34
wpwrakrafa__: ("heavy ben") whee ! which reminds me .. he still doesn't have the counterweights18:35
rafa__zear: i can tell you that we extremely serious checking our pockets, bags, and luggage18:36
wpwrakrafa__: maybe you can pick up a another one on when you return. if you have friends in madrid, perhaps he could mail it to them18:36
rafa__zear: shit people every place in this world18:36
rafa__wpwrak: no friends in madrid.. just in ibiza so far18:36
rafa__well, we go to ibiza as well18:37
zearrafa__, well, the people of certain ethnicity (won't tell the names because of this channel being logged) who are in great numbers in spain, are known to steal from people at the airports18:37
wpwrakrafa__: in a way, it makes sense. first their immigration laws force many people to carry lots of valuables. second, no surprise that the thieves realize that, too ...18:37
zearrafa__, i'm always super safe with my valuables18:38
rafa__zear: i think that it was in the subway18:38
zeari always carry them in a separate backpack, i keep my hands on18:38
rafa__the safe subway of spain :P18:38
zearrafa__, if that will comfort you, we have no subway in poland ;)18:39
rafa__zear: the no nice thing is tht we were super careful as well18:40
zearrafa__, at least here you can leave all the precious stuff in the hostel18:41
zearit is sad it was a nanonote though18:41
rafa__and surely in just a second where we did not check that18:41
zeara thief will have no use of it18:41
rafa__zear: i think so (to leave all the stuff in the hostel)18:42
zearrafa__, do you have a serial number or anything?18:42
zearany marks on the case?18:42
wpwraktuxbrain may have the serial number18:43
rafa__zear: of the nn?18:43
zearrafa__, yes18:43
rafa__no.. t was really new18:43
zearsomething so we could know this is this unit when we spot it on ebay18:43
rafa__with the package untouched18:43
zearwhat system was installed into it?18:43
zearalso, was it with the box, cleaning cloth, usb cable, carbonated button?18:44
rafa__zear: no idea.. maybe openwrt because tuxbrain is not selliing the nanowar version yet18:44
rafa__zear: yes the whole box18:44
zearthat will be hard to trace :(18:44
zearbut still, we might monitor the net18:44
zeardoes tuxbrain know about it already?18:44
zearshould we tall him? So he can tell us what spanish sites to monitor18:45
rafa__it is my first internet connection after that happened today in madrid18:45
rafa__zear: yes, we can tell him. no idea if that will be useful. a lot of time checking18:46
zearthis is really sad and not right. I mean, stealing anything is not right, but stealing open hardware is wrong on all the levels18:46
zearrafa__, but that is a very unusual hardware18:46
zearwe have a great chance of spotting it18:46
rafa__maybe tuxbrain knows where to check18:46
zeari hope so18:46
wpwrakwell, fortunately nothing more valuable was stolen. i'm sure you can arrange to get another one on your trip if you have a few hours to spare in madrid.18:47
zearwpwrak, at least for polish conditions, nanonote is VERY valuable ;)18:47
wpwrakzear: no laptops or smartphones in poland ? :)18:48
zearwpwrak, i don't give a damn about laptops :P18:48
rafa__wpwrak: well, i am not sure if we want to spend another 100 more for the gift18:48
zearthis is a nanonote, it costed me ~400PLN including shipment and custom fees18:48
zearand 1400PLN is a regular in poland18:49
wpwrakrafa__: ah, i see. getting kinda expensive, yes.18:49
zearso you can guess it's a good couple of days of hard work18:49
rafa__zear: what is that in euros? :)18:49
zearrafa__, wolfram says it's 100 EUR18:49
wpwrakzear: so what is PLN 1400 ? PLN 400 would be just about the normal price. nothing outrageous. it would be more expensive in argentina :)18:51
zearwpwrak, 350EUR, this is the monthly salary in poland18:52
zearbut working in mc donalds or in the warehouse would make you even less money18:53
wpwrakzear: ah, i see. yes, in relative terms, it's not cheap then.18:54
zearwpwrak, at least we can have a satisfaction that the thief won't be able to sell this nanonote18:55
zearor he will try to fiddle with it and maybe convert into linux faith :D18:55
wpwrakzear: yeah. now if it just had a remote destruct function ... :)18:55
zearit's linux, we can implement it ;D18:56
zearwpwrak, but that might be a good idea, set an option, that if you're going on a trip you can set it to yell "a thief, a thief!" when someone opens it up :D18:56
wpwrakzear: they probably don't check their loot until when they're at a safe place. but nice idea anyway :)18:57
zeari know18:58
zearbut still18:58
zearit would be useless until you usb boot and reflash it18:58
rafa__needto go18:59
rafa__cya geeks18:59
zearrafa__, cya18:59
zeari also need to rest18:59
wpwrakrafa__: cya ! have a few nice beers to wash down the unplansantness ! :)19:01
zeari will take care of that ;D19:02
zeardamn, i'm taking a lot of stuff with me to warsaw19:02
zearlet's list: Jornada 720, Jornada 928, Ben NanoNote, Freerunner, GP2X, Gizmondo, 2x Dingoo, NDS19:03
zearhope none of that will get stolen19:03
kristianpaulLook this Foocorp20:46
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Making power source http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/01429d220:49
wpwrakand more toys are on their way from digi-key ;-)20:53
kristianpaulwpwrak: wich ones ??20:53
Action: kristianpaul cuirios as always ;)20:53
wpwrakkristianpaul: more at86rf230, various integrated baluns to try, a bunch of beads, a collection of rf cables and connectors, and a silver pen. never used the latter but i'm curious if might simplify some rework.20:55
wpwrakkristianpaul: ah, and a few ft232r. important detail :)20:56
kristianpaulmore idbg chips btw?20:56
wpwraki still have ~20 of the c8051f32620:57
wpwrakthey're used in idbg and the ben-wpan usb dongle. for the frequency counter, i use the c8051f32020:57
kristianpaulwoo a lot20:58
kristianpaulyou should sell me a idbg some day ;)20:58
wpwrakthe ft232r will be the basis for my new in-circuit programmer for the c8051f32x series. right now, i still use a freerunner plus debug board combo for this. awkward and quite a barrier for anyone wanting to reproduce my circuits.20:59
wpwrakyou can make your own ;-)20:59
kristianpaulhey :)20:59
kristianpauli like that20:59
kristianpaulsure have tow boards here and more coming21:00
wpwraktwo boards of what ?21:00
kristianpauli think the right word is breakout baords i'm not sure...21:01
wpwrakah ! i'm just getting the chips. much more fun to design your own boards :)21:02
wpwrakironically, it may even be more efficient in many cases, because you can also customize all the mechanical aspects21:03
kristianpaulwell i can get the chips in bogota so is okay :)21:04
wpwrakof course, the little cnc mill i have downstairs is quite helpful for getting boards to look the way i want :) (e.g., i wish anyone luck cutting something like the ben-wpan board with a dremel)21:04
kristianpauldam my reprap is nothing good for milling :/21:05
wpwrakah yes, you're luck to have a local chip source. i haven't found anything useful yet. well, i didn't search too hard. digi-key are quick and painless.21:05
wpwrakyou could try to print your boards :) extrude some fr4, then silver-ink on top :)21:06
kristianpauli think this guys in bogota are figikey disitrrbuidores21:07
kristianpaulheh why not ;)21:07
kristianpaulwell accuracy is the problemm..21:08
wpwraksome of the shops i know around here have amazingly good prices, but they only have old-fashioned components. and poor logistics - you never know what they may actually have in stock.21:08
wpwrak(accuracy) i guess those 4 mil traces could be a bit of a challenge :)21:09
kristianpaulhow accurate is your cnc?21:09
wpwrakhmm, hard to say. the positioning is quite accurate, maybe 1/40 mm or better. the problem is usually in the rigidity of the fixture and the table. the table flexes a bit in the z direction, which often makes things hard to predict.21:11
kristianpaulhmm sort of same with 3d printing21:12
kristianpaulhot nozzle is ont accurate some tmes...21:12
wpwrakwell, things like milling pcbs with 6 mil bits and such. so far, none of my attempts at that was successful. i'll need to get some thicker endmills.21:12
wpwraki'd very much like to be able to mill my pcbs. should be faster than toner transfer plus acid (although i've optimized that one pretty well by now), and it would eliminate registration problems on at least one side. plus, i could do any drilling at the same time, too.21:14
wpwrakright now it's cutting with the mill (or dremel, if it's something simple), then toner transfer and etching, and drilling manually.21:15
kristianpauli dint like tonnet transfer cause the acid part21:16
kristianpauli always get dirty :/21:16
wpwraksince i have big registration problems on two-sided boards with toner transfer, via drills are almost always heavily tiled. not nice.21:16
kristianpaulbye bye jean...21:16
wpwrakyou're not supposed to *splash* the acid around ! :-)21:17
Action: kristianpaul hides21:17
kristianpaulbut drops just bring to me :p21:17
kristianpauli just need more experience i dont do boards all days21:17
wpwrakwhat acid do you use ? ferric chloride ?21:17
kristianpaullocally and cheap avaliabl21:18
kristianpaullocalyy i mean inmy town21:18
wpwrakthat stuff sucks. stains as hell and you need to warm it up, which adds a lot of problems on its own.21:18
wpwrakthere's a MUCH better solution. cheaper, too. HCl and peroxide.21:18
kristianpauli need quote those then :)21:19
wpwrakworks at room temperature, about twice as fast as ferric chloride, it's a clear liquid, and it stays clean when using, not the brown-black sludge you get with ferric cloride.21:19
kristianpaulso i can re-use more than ferric.. ?21:20
wpwrakhcl you get at any hardware store (ferreteria). peroxide at any pharmacy.21:20
wpwrakmix two parts peroide (at the concentration you get at pharmacies - it's pretty weak. no need to get the stronger stuff) with one part of HCl and you're all set. couldn't be easier.21:21
wpwraki'm not sure about reuse. supposedly, long reuse is possible, but you probably have to put it into a bottle to prevent the peroxide from escaping.21:22
wpwraki just make small quantities so that i don't have much waste. and small boards to start with ;-)21:22
wpwrakof course, since the stuff costs next to nothing, it's not a big deal to have to discard some. only issue is neutralizing it. i toss a bit of NaOH (caustic soda) into the glass, quickly get away, and hope for the best :)21:24
wpwrakalso caustic soda is easily available at any hardware store. it's actually quite surprising that ferric chloride is so popular, when you can get much better materials so easily.21:25
kristianpaulhuy muy caro en cali esta mas barato21:25
kristianpaulwolfspraul: http://foocorp.net/foovc/21:26
kristianpauland comment i'm curios ;)21:26
wpwrakonly two issues with that acid: 1) it's more aggressive than ferric cloride, so you should be careful not to spill it. 2) it's clear, so you won't see the spills so easily and someone (kids, drunken guests, etc.)  may even think it's something they can drink.21:27
kristianpauldrunken guests??21:28
wpwrakfriends who come over for a drink, girls you pick up at a bar/club, folks that come when you're having a party, etc.21:29
kristianpaulyeah sure..21:29
Action: kristianpaul dont have that kind of social activities yet..21:30
wpwrakso you can safely do all the chemistry you want ;-)21:31
kristianpaulyeah !21:31
wolfspraulkristianpaul: nice, that's good!21:35
wolfspraulI'm wondering whether they want to sell those FooPlugs later too, or just have whatever thing to attach the donation to?21:36
wolfspraulif they can make money that way - more power to them21:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, how is the next ben run going ?21:43
wolfspraulin sourcing I think. I don't check every day, too many things moving.21:44
wolfsprauland no, there will be no changes :-) none.21:45
wolfspraullet's call it stability :-)21:45
wpwrakdang. and i was so counting on the 20" widescreen and the umts modem :)21:45
wolfspraulthe umts modem of course with your chip antenna design and osmocombb-3g/lte21:46
wpwrakchip antennas are lame. pcb antennas rule ! ;-)21:47
wpwrakwell, it would admittedly be cool to cook our own designer ceramics ...21:47
wpwrak"designer" not for the shape but for the physical properties. almost all the interesting things in material science happen these days with ceramics.21:48
kristianpaulhow is that wpwrak ?21:49
wolfsprauloh no, don't get him started...21:49
kristianpaulsorry :)21:49
wolfspraulnext time I go to Buenos Aires I will see an apartment that is half turned into a diy ceramics lab21:50
Action: kristianpaul hides this chanel from his view21:50
wpwrakkristianpaul: well, think "high temperature" superconductors. they're all based on sophisticated ceramic mixtures.21:51
wpwrakalso lots of electronics use special ceramics: capacitors, inductors, oscillators, antennas, ...21:51
kristianpauli wasnt aware about atennas21:52
wpwrakwolfspraul: naw, 1/3 is already office and lab. taking another 50% from this would start to interfere with essentials :)21:52
kristianpaulhey seems worthly travel to argentina this days :)21:53
kristianpauland i jsut need my passort i think :)21:53
kristianpaulhope still*21:53
wpwrakargentina is a good place to visit :)21:56
rafakristianpaul: do you want to visit us? :)22:09
kristianpaulrafa: why not :)22:09
kristianpaulwe speak same languiage22:10
kristianpaulsame side of the world22:10
kristianpaulis not that bad :)22:10
rafawpwrak: we were out for a while but because we do not much the city we just buy some beers and we are again in hostel enjoying wifi :)22:10
kristianpaulhmm mmc source code is now in openwrt inst?22:10
rafakristianpaul: yeah ;)22:11
wpwrakrafa: ah, so you'll go exploring tomorrow :)22:11
rafafun.. gf is using netbook with wpa connection22:11
kristianpauldamm i need learn how to browse linux source..22:12
rafabut my hp palmtop just works with wpe22:12
rafaso we plugged neo freerunner via usb to netbook, for freerunner the netbook is its default router, then we set the wlan in neo as wep and adohc22:13
rafathen i set my old tiny hp palmtop wifi so neo is its default router22:13
rafanow i have internet22:13
kristianpaullong hops22:14
rafawho does say the freerunner is not useful?22:14
rafawpwrak: yes, we have in a good place in downtown22:15
rafaso it is safe i guess.. but we are exploring a bit, just a bit this night22:16
rafatomorrow maybe a bit morw22:16
wpwrak(fr as wifi router) nice ;)22:16
rafawe are in a good place*22:17
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Attempt at avoiding the false changes seen on Xue. Seems that alpha-blending http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/78f6cfb22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Fixed some smaller bugs and slightly improved formatting of commit entries. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a0cdb1e22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Files in the first commit didn't have an HTML wrapper with PDF link. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/20184ed22:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Reduce the number of I/O redirections. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/626061422:20
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Reorganized cache and output directory structure. Some code cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a3aac7e22:20
rafawolfspraul: hey.. did you read the short story today?22:26
rafawolfspraul: when we went to the tuxbrain town to visit him we bought a nn for a friend22:27
rafatoday somebody opened the backpack of my gf and stole it :( (in madrid)22:28
rafaso now i am drinnking beer to forget22:28
rafawell, i often drink beer :P22:28
rafano to forget. just for fun22:29
rafabut no today22:30
rafagrrr.. i can not forget the story... shit thief22:30
wpwrakrafa: what happened, happened. no point to dwell on it. shit happens :-(22:31
rafawpwrak: and the hostel has a bar.. but it is closed right now.. everyone against me??! :D22:33
wpwrakwell, it's monday :) besides, hotel bars tend to be sad affairs most of the time.22:35
wolfspraulargh that's stupid22:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: wait a bit and you can use ieee 802.15.4 :)22:43
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