#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2010-08-29

qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: fpd2pdf: ignore fped backup files (and option -a to still use them) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b3728b500:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Minor code cleanup and robustness improvement. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3ca646c00:46
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Generate commit entry and show diffs also for the first commit. Plus cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/56a950400:46
qi-bot[commit] Neil Stockbridge: The help text in Nightsky is now more accurate http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/ec36abc01:22
wolfspraulcan't wait to have nightsky on my NanoNote...01:30
wpwrakyeah, on those cloudy days, it's the only option :)01:33
uncloudedwolfspraul: what's stopping you at the moment?01:35
uncloudedwpwrak: it's been cloudy here as well ever since I wrote it!  I had to compare the view with Stellarium to test it!01:36
wpwrakdarn. optimization defeated by the kernel's maximum symbolic link depth. that's a first :)01:36
Action: orly_owl wonders what other hardware there is01:37
wpwrakunclouded: ;-)) so your nick expresses some wishful thinking :)01:37
uncloudedwpwrak: I was just thinking the exact same thing01:38
wolfspraulunclouded: not much, just need to install and try :-)01:39
uncloudedwolfspraul: fingers crossed all the bugs have been ironed out then01:39
wpwrakben-wpan/atrf cache down from 357 MB to 114 MB. now let's see what happens with xue ...01:52
wpwrakaah ! and i found a bug. some of the empty sheets are cause by spaces in the file name. let's see where that quoting is insufficient ...01:57
wolfsprauloh nice, that sounds promising02:03
wpwrakhmpf. first time i get to use  ls --quoting-style=literal02:08
wpwrakhmm, nope. that doesn't work :(02:14
Action: wpwrak reaches deep into the box of dirt bash kludges02:23
Action: wpwrak brings out < <(ls -1)02:35
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Optimize cache usage by symlinking identical PPMs. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/02e2bf502:44
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Despite trying to be careful with quoting, some spaces in file names still http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/cfbdd4502:44
wpwrakxue cache is down to 615 MB (from 3.7 GB). some more stuff has become visible :)  http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/demo2/02:45
wpwrakand i need a bigger screen :)02:48
wolfspraultoo bad we had this chie->xue rename02:49
wpwraki'm not done yet :002:49
wolfsprauland the initial import into xue was done in such a way that the chie history is lost02:49
wpwrakthe lost history is a more serious issue02:49
wolfspraulthe older chie repository is still there02:50
wolfspraul(hidden I think but it's somewhere)02:50
wolfspraulis it possible to 'patch' the older history back in?02:51
wpwrakis it also in git ?02:51
wolfspraulit's not much though, just 4 days02:52
wolfspraulone sec02:52
wolfsprauloh I think as admin you should see it already02:53
wolfsprauldo you see that?02:53
wpwrakmy superpowers have met their match: "You are not authorized to view this page." :)02:54
wpwrakto piece things together, maybe you can use those mysterious "grafts". jan luebbe would be the expert for these critters.02:55
wolfspraultry again02:56
wolfspraulI'm not even sure it's worth stitching the history back together02:57
wolfspraulit's just 4 days and quite a few commits are labeled 'just a kicad test' and similar02:57
wolfspraulif the mostly empty chie columns in the diffsch view would go away that's 95% of the value02:58
wpwrakyes, the sheets i see as "starting point" don't look overly exciting. most of the time, you only care about relatively recent things anyway.03:02
wpwraknow the access works03:03
wpwrakhere's a quick cheat for the empty columns: just scroll to the right :) they're now all nicely bunched on the left side. the others are now populated.03:03
wolfspraulit's very nice already, no doubt03:04
wpwrakstill a few more things on the to do list ...i also want to get rid of the "commit" line and put the date there instead. small stuff.03:06
wpwraki think they had a bit of an edit war at commits 9202afdec7dd4d8ea292fcd28611032cecc70dba 263badf95fc8844f891b1ab9d9d072bc05abf7dc and 16026245e7eb4ad70b623f25616fb27e278f71f1 :-)03:08
wpwraki should make a new project with all those gadgets. there are also fpd2pdf and the new and improved dsv system. and then we have things like symbols and footprints that could also be shared.03:12
wolfspraulyes agreed, new project03:14
wpwraki wonder if it should all go into one, or separate projects for scripts and symbols/footprints ? of course, the latter tend to have some small scripts as well, e.g., to turn fped footprints into kicad modules03:17
wpwrakah, and then there's the question whether it's possible to migrate the git history along with the files03:19
wpwrakwolfspraul: "stripped". i think he means "gcc -s" or "strip some_executable" :)03:22
wpwrakdist.ro ... nice domain use :)03:23
wolfspraulI don't have overview over the scripts right now, their complexity, dependencies. so don't know about 1 project or multiple.03:24
wpwraki would put the scripts into a single project. the question is whether this project should also host symbols and footprints or whether they should go elsewhere.03:26
wpwraki.e., "one-stop-shopping eda stuff" vs. ("eda tools" plus "symbols/footprints")03:27
wpwrakthe latter would be cleaner. the former would remove one step from the setup procedure. (you still need to get kicad, fped, etc. so the list of dependencies still has a certain size)03:29
wolfspraulwith "symbols/footprints" you mean stuff shared between multiple kicad projects?03:32
wolfspraulthen I would rather make 2 projects. you never know how things continue, who picks up what (also outside of qi).03:34
wpwrak(sym/fp) yes. e.g., xue and ben-wpan both reused stdpass.fpd from gta02-core (so there are now three copies of that file. hopefully all still identical ;-)03:36
wpwrakok. soon we'll need a hierarchical project tree instead of a list ;-)03:36
wpwrakbut first some food ...03:39
wpwrakthanks :)03:43
wpwrakcool. ftdi have a new series, the ft232r, where they now finally learned how to get rid of the crystal, too. in order to do more than basic serial conversion, e.g., to bit-bang, you need to use their binary-only library, though. no documentation to find about the protocol. do they never tire of that sort of shit ?08:04
kristianpauldall i have one of those chips :/08:07
kristianpaultwo of then... :(08:08
wpwrakkristianpaul: so, really no free driver for the gpios ? i searched all their documents and came back empty-handed.08:08
kristianpaulseems there is for windows08:09
kristianpaullet me check again08:09
wpwraksilabs, on the other hand, have some usb-to-serial chips, where they provide a gpl'ed kernel driver for linux. so the protocol is implicitly documented :)08:09
wpwrakwhat i'm after is a usb-to-a-bunch-of-gpios chip that doesn't need any firmware bootstrap, so that i can use it for a firmware bootstrap programmer for the c8051f32x.08:10
kristianpaulwell i need sorft of that i think too for some coming boards too08:11
kristianpaulbut with high speed bit bang (3Mhz)08:12
kristianpaulto usb08:12
wpwrakthere are some larger ftdis that can do this and where the protocol is documented08:13
kristianpaulbuit i think you can setup bit bang/gpio on the EEPROM just the provided sofware is avalaiable for windows only it seems08:13
kristianpauli'm reading DS_FT232R.pdf page 1308:14
wpwraksilabs' c2102 goes up to 1 mbps. i think it's just a c8051f32708:15
wpwrakyup. via their DLL08:16
wpwraklet's see what is in their zip ...08:17
wpwrakoh, that doesn't look too bad. i see sources :)08:18
kristianpaulcompile, compile !08:18
kristianpauli guess blobed sources..08:19
wpwrakah no. that's just libusb08:20
wpwraklibftdi, however, seems to support he ft232r08:22
wpwrakokay, that's acceptable. phew. why make it easy if you can let people jump through hoops :-(08:23
kristianpauli did :'(08:26
kristianpaulwas cheap i i bought in a colombia electronic shop to avoid import more stuff08:27
wpwrakyeah, they're very widespread. that's why i was considering it in the first place. the goal here is to make something that's easy to get.08:28
wpwrakhmm. small obstacle. i need to be able to create a pulse of 20...5000 ns08:33
kristianpaulthats not so small i think ;)08:33
wpwrak5 us is plenty of time in most cases. however, if you're on the other side of USB ...08:34
wpwrakbut it seems that the ftdi can bundle multiple operations in a single usb transfer08:35
wpwrakone more item for my digi-key shopping list :)08:52
kristianpaulany one had take a look to the wikiriader summer update?09:13
wpwrakgrmbl. x complains that i'm at the maximum number of clients :-( nonsense. only 316 in total.09:38
wolfspraulsymlinks, X clients, ...09:44
wolfspraulkristianpaul: they keep hacking, but it's very tied to their own microkernel and embedded system. will be hard to reuse for anyone else.09:46
wolfspraulbut of course it's good, if they continue and have a clean design maybe some things are reusable...don't know. I would probably start with those textual readers we found recently, and once I run into issues the wikireader project would be one to look for sources to cut & paste from.09:47
kristianpaulrafa__:  did a great work about that09:50
kristianpaulat least is simple and works09:51
kristianpaulbut getting the dump not sure how hard or update it is?..09:51
wolfspraulwhat reader did rafa__ work on? and what dump format does it need? I didn't follow in detail...09:51
kristianpaulis a dump from the humane project09:52
kristianpauli think is not up to date09:52
kristianpaularggg damm my processor is getting slow :/09:52
kristianpaulnow i see whye two cores are important :)09:53
kristianpauli think the script from humane have problems with the lastest wikipedia dumps09:53
kristianpaulso the guy from the porject sent and old already done dump wich already works09:54
kristianpaulas far as i know09:54
kristianpaulhttp://xkcd.com/783/ lol :)09:55
kristianpaulso rafa have a nice gui09:56
wolfspraulah OK09:56
kristianpauland simple command line that search from the dump as easy as:09:57
kristianpaulcommand article09:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: ben-dispshell-outside: 1 mm and 500 um scans are done. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-scans/aedcb7610:02
wpwrakhmm. not so easy to find a 2.4/5.8 GHz antenna one can connect to a regular SMA system without too much trouble.10:10
wpwrakin fact, it may be more or less impossible. interesting.10:15
wolfspraultoo bad gotta go, will read tomorrow and try to understand what that means... (with the antenna)10:19
wpwrakwlan uses a "reverse male" connector. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMA_connector10:22
wpwrakso all the cheap wifi antennas don't fit directly on a "standard" sma system. instead, they need some sort of adapter.10:23
wpwrakhmm, does anyone know if there's a reasonable way to move a file, along with its revision history, from one repository to another ? let's assume for simplicity that all the commits changing that file changed only that file.10:50
larscquick and dirty: cherry pick each commit that changes the file11:04
wpwraklarsc: hmm, but that doens't work across repositories. i could of course convert commits into patches, and apply these. hmm ...11:09
larscwell you can add the one as a remote to the other, cant you?11:10
wpwrakah, that may be an option indeed. haven't used that yet.11:10
wpwrakyeah, i like the idea. thanks a lot !11:18
wpwrakand an EE question: i'm looking for a simple small shielded connector that plugs and unplugs easily. should interface well with rg-174. the usual barrel types are cheap but they're all on the large side. the best choices seem to be mcx and mmcx. which of these two is more future-proof ?11:46
he2has some one tried to install debian on the nn yet?11:49
wpwrakhmm, mmcx seems to be the choice. has nice board edge connectors.11:51
he2could someone help me?12:40
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Something routing http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/27b4eac17:58
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Cleaning http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/867023b18:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: OK I understood the sma/rp-sma problem now. oh well. Wikipedia says it's to make it harder to connect antennas that would create a system the FCC doesn't like.20:50
wolfspraulI'll go read that section mentioned in the Wikipedia article now :-) (15.203 Antenna requirement)20:51
kristianpaulwolfspraul: that could be a problem with GPS Atenna too, at least about finding a small one sma-like compatible20:51
kristianpaulthe GPS's i saw in the past have build in atenna i think20:51
wolfspraulindeed, an anti-hacker regulation20:52
wolfspraulor rather 'a hacker has to be really good' regulation20:53
kristianpaul", but the use of a standard antenna jack or electrical connector is prohibited" !!!20:54
kristianpaulbut thats stupid i saw phones with sma-looking connectors20:54
wolfspraulyes, that's where (if I understand things correctly) Werner's problem of finding a standard antenna comes from20:54
kristianpaulis the same thinfg i can attach other atenna anyway20:54
kristianpaulyes it seems20:54
kristianpaulthats just make all this propietary now each vendors have their own stuff to sell at high rates !20:55
wolfspraulI am wondering whether a device that has a standard connector behind plastic, but where you first need to drill a hole, would be considered sufficient.20:55
kristianpaullike the weird TNC connector in some Linksys wireless20:55
wolfspraulif we ever ran into this, we would need to find out what's 'hard enough' so it passes the FCC approved hacker standard20:56
kristianpaulmay be easy attached/detach atenna with haker-like connector (of course not standard)20:57
kristianpaullook: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=44#imageTab20:58
kristianpaulbut hacker-friendly20:58
kristianpauli think20:58
wolfspraulare you sure the GPS problem is the same? I think external, standard, GPS antennas are quite common, no?20:59
wolfspraulit's receive only anyway20:59
kristianpaulnot sure20:59
kristianpaulbut i'm jsut wondering why i dint found small atenna with sma connector21:00
kristianpaulmay be i need do more searching21:00
kristianpaullike this product http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=943621:01
kristianpaulantenny looks tiny but i dont see wich stanrds uses or even a spare part21:01
kristianpaulbut i'm not sure, i think i need find a good book about atennas wich was pointed i the book i was reading21:02
wpwrakkristianpaul: you used "sma" and "small" in the same sentence ? :)21:02
kristianpaulwpwrak: yes21:03
kristianpaulbut look http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=987121:03
kristianpaulan atenna !21:03
kristianpauldamm i saw it before but i tought it was gps too21:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: have you solved the antenna problem you had? anything I can do to help?21:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: no need to add fcc-displeasing connectors. probably within the hours after they passed that regulation, the factories started producing adapters rp-sma to whatever you fancy ;-)21:04
wpwrakkristianpaul: (antenna) cute :)21:05
kristianpaul heh seems the GPS antenna was no big deal after allm whe you eliminate wthe word SMA from the search ;)21:05
kristianpaulwpwrak: why not atenna in PCB21:05
kristianpaul i saw mesh potatoe using21:05
kristianpaulthat idea21:06
wpwrakkristianpaul: it's for the test equipment21:06
kristianpauli toght was real solution21:06
wpwrakmy next order at digi-key will have a bunch of sma/mmcx/u.fl parts in it :)21:06
kristianpaulthey should give you discount if you keep buying all that things ;)21:07
wpwrakit's a pity you need to many different sizes. bnc for scopes and the like, sma for rf, mmcx if it should be coax and resonably small (e.g., for my frequency counter), and then u.fl if it should go on the board.21:08
wpwrak(discount) they found a good fede rate for argentina. down from usd 100+ to usd 40. that's already quite nice :)21:08
kristianpaulwhere i can ceck rates to colombia btw?21:09
wpwraki'll make the frequency counter a usb dongle. should be fun :)21:09
kristianpauli'm not aware off digikey webpage21:10
wpwraklet's see ...21:10
kristianpauli need to move from sparkfun to a more serious provider21:10
wpwrakwhee. usd 100 for you. that's because the plane has to stop so soon :)21:10
kristianpaulis just sparkfun shiping is cheap as i can choose from first class to next two fays deliver :)21:11
wpwrakdigi-key are extremely well organized. and they're incredibly fast. you send them a 100+ items order before 7 pm their time and it's on the plane that same night.21:11
kristianpaulmay be i can send it to miami then to colombia21:12
wpwrakah, you can try usps. digi-key sometimes offer that, too. that may be cheaper.21:12
kristianpaulwhat some cuntries have 100+ free shipping??21:14
kristianpaulhttp://paste.debian.net/86597 looky wolfspraul  :)21:15
wpwrakcountries where it's already cheap :)21:16
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes you should setup a forwarding account in Miami21:17
wolfspraul(for example, many happen to be in Miami)21:17
wolfspraulfrom there to Colombia is only 4-8 USD for a small package I think, something like that if I remember correctly21:17
kristianpaulsure i did that to get all my electronic stuff so far, last was avnet board21:17
kristianpaul49 + 30 (miami carrier + colombia taxes)21:18
kristianpaulnot bad i think21:18
wolfspraulsounds expensive, are you sure this is the cheapest way to forward things?21:18
kristianpaulwell if i have famliy in the US that send the thing like gift will help21:19
kristianpaulbut for the avnet i think wasf fair the box was 700gr21:19
kristianpauli paid two shipping once from avnet to miami then to colombia21:20
kristianpaulplus taxes21:20
kristianpaulwasnot so bad21:20
kristianpaulbut i dont mind if i can get it better :)21:20
kristianpaulmaybe andres-calderon  know how?21:20
kristianpaulwell i dont have famuly in the US, but some pople use then to send stuff like gift then save on taxes21:22
wolfspraulkristianpaul: sure try ask Carlos or Andres maybe they know more options21:22
kristianpauli dream with a electronic shop i china/hong kong/whatever with world wide free shipping as dealextreme :)21:24
wpwrakandres-calderon: i saw that you have an A2 sheet among your schematics (for the FPGA). is this really pleasant to work with ?21:40
wpwrakwolfspraul, andres-calderon: btw, schematics are now properly scaled. i seem to have a number of false changes on the fpga sheet, though. still debugging that one. http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/demo2/21:44
andres-calderonnot really, but the FPGA is composed of five big parts...  I do not know how to handle in differently way.21:44
wpwrakandres-calderon: just put them on different sheets ?21:44
wpwrakthe big sheet must be difficult to read if you print it on A4. it also looks ugly in my bitmap images, that's why i care :)21:46
wolfspraulmaybe the scale (pixel resolution) of the large image could be a bit larger still? I think some text is hard to read, especially when green and red are written over each other.21:46
wpwraki could make it larger, yes. but then that becomes difficult to naviate ...21:48
wpwrakwhat i'm thinking of is to also generate pdfs (zoomable but without deltas). that way, one could go there for the details.21:48
andres-calderon wpwrak I do not know if a component can be split  through multiples sheets.21:49
wpwrakthe workflow would then be to first pick an interesting change from the overview, have a look at the detail picture, and then go to the pdfs to see every last detail.21:49
wpwrakgreen and red overlays are virtually impossible to make readable.  i would have to make an animated gif or such.21:50
wpwrakof course, with pdf you could just flip back and forth. so that solves the problem as well. particularly if you know where to look.21:51
wpwrakandres-calderon: that should be no problem at all. e.g., here, the CPU (U1501) is broken down into something like 16 parts, spread all over the schematics: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-all.pdf21:52
andres-calderonok, then I go to split the sheet21:55
wpwrakwhoa ! for the cc2520: "Due to U.S. export controls, we are unable to add this item to your order."21:58
wpwrakwell, this simplifies things in a way21:59
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: scripts/: minor Makefile cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/081aed322:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Schematics sheets are now scaled and shifted (may still need some tuning) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a1c538622:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Copied WPAN-ARTF design files over for WPAN-CCRF. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/dce1c1022:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Put main components for the CC2520-based design on the schematics. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e4b757422:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: U-turn: The US restrict export of the CC2520. Atmel scores a design win. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7fbcfaa22:22
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Removed the CC2520 from AUTHORS as well. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/a61e9da22:22
--- Mon Aug 30 201000:00

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