#qi-hardware IRC log for Wednesday, 2010-08-25

qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: added copper pours http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/8dfb8bb00:31
kyakwolfspraul: what i mean is that feeds/packages/Xorg/lib/qt4 is coming from "upstream"01:18
kyakand from time to time it is broken due to some commit there01:18
wolfspraulok but which upstream?01:18
wolfspraulwhich repository are you working against, which branch?01:19
kyakit comes from openwrt packages directly01:19
kyakUpdating feed 'packages' from 'svn://svn.openwrt.org/openwrt/packages'01:19
wolfsprauldo you compile from source or are you talking about problems with packages others have built?01:19
wolfspraulis that the OpenWrt development trunk?01:19
wolfspraulah OK01:20
wolfspraulwell you should probably expect some breakage there, no?01:20
kyaki expect them to test, then commit01:20
wolfspraulI don't know exactly how mirko works on qt4 stuff, either he works there, and then merges into the stable branches, or the other way round?01:21
wolfspraulif that's the equivalent of an unstable repo, maybe the testing is just 'in progress'01:21
wolfspraulI want to start doing some testing of my own on the NanoNote, and document it, but it will only be based on what we have in openwrt-xburst and the package feed on qi (which is months old right now, so doesn't really help...)01:22
kyakhm.. i'm surprised to hear this from you01:23
kyakactually, qi-packages are updated quite freqeuntly, just have a look at "latest updates"01:24
wolfspraulI mean a repository of pre-built binary .ipk files01:27
wolfsprauldid we update it? if so I indeed missed it, let me check...01:27
kyakah, it's updated together with the latest built01:27
kyakwhich was.. maybe you are right, a month ago01:27
wolfspraulno we didn't :-) April 29...01:28
wolfspraulwe are talking about different things01:28
wolfspraulI think01:28
wolfspraulanyway I am trying to understand how you can feel better about qt4, because I think mirko is doing quite a bit of work there, and if you sync where you look with mirko, maybe things will get better? don't know01:29
kyakhmm, looks like packages weren't rebuilt with the latest image..01:31
kyaki'm not sure it is only mirko who commits to openwrt packages directly01:32
wolfspraulyou mean to openwrt.org ? no sure not there are many people I think01:37
wolfspraulwhat are you trying to achieve?01:37
wolfspraulby installing prebuilt .ipks from openwrt.org you are leaving what anybody tests on a NanoNote, even tries to test :-)01:38
wolfspraulyou are probably also not staying inside the upstream Backfire release, do you?01:38
kyaki try to build the latest opwnert-xburst image01:39
kyakfrom our git01:39
kyakbut building of qt4 fails due to some previous commit01:39
uncloudedkyak, we guessed yesterday that the pre-built .ipk files were automatically built along with the official release images but it seems that the repository of .ipks can be rebuilt independently of the official image releases01:40
kyakunclouded: sure, yes01:40
unclouded( not that's directly relevant to the current discussion)01:41
kyaki don't pay a lot of attention to pre-built .ipk files because i usually include all the software i need in my custom image01:41
kyaktslib.cpp:42:19: error: tslib.h: No such file or directory01:42
kyakthis is the error building qt401:42
kyaki don't knwo what was the update, but someone definitely missed some dependencies01:43
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Introduce PLATFORM_ENTER, replacing the old PLATFORM_SETUP for DFU mode http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/5ce904b03:33
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Got "cntr" to show signs of life. It was the watchdog, as usual. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/3584b5b03:37
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: The parasitic capacitance of the three probe input pins and R1 formed a http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/81ab67905:55
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added user-space counter utility. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/4d4992105:55
qwebirc26516Hello all,06:58
qwebirc26516I seem to be having trouble with getting into usbboot. I have tried different cables (of which at least two positively worked with the unit before), shortening the usb-pins, not shortening them etc. No avail, I cannot get back into usb boot mode.06:59
qwebirc26516Now, this happened after I (apparently successful :(  ) erased the NAND as per the wiki instructions, in preparation to re-flashing.07:00
kyakwhat do you see in dmesg?07:00
qwebirc26516Any ideas what else I can try? I have tried on two ubuntu machines so far, no avail07:00
kyakalso, the suggested way is reflash_ben.sh.. why do you want to do it by hand?07:00
qwebirc26516reflash_ben.sh thre errors and did not proceed with flashing, thats why I cose to use usbboot.07:01
qwebirc26516threw. damn ;)07:01
kyakwhat about dmesg?07:02
qwebirc26516dmesg is /var/log/messages - no messages, there is no new device present.07:02
kyakis your usb port functioning?07:03
qwebirc26516strange, isn't it...07:03
kyaktry to connect other device to the same port07:03
qwebirc26516yes, I have checked that (and, used different ports, and, as mentioned, two different machines).07:03
qwebirc26516ie. a USB harddrive, using about the maximum power, works fine as do usb thumbdrives.07:04
kyakdo you see the red LED when you plug in Ben?07:04
ctsso, just to make suer I am not getting anything wrong here: I do have to take out the battery, wait, then connect the USB cable, then shorten the usb pins, then press power for two seconds, right? then I should see the USB device in lsusb (aas I did just this morning, before desaster struck...)?07:06
kyakno need to shorten. if your bootloader is not corrupted, just hold the "U" button while pressing the power on for two seconds07:07
ctssomeone just worked magic on my device. after trying at least 20 times, now I seem to be in usb boot mode (and, btw, the power-U mode didn't work for me, sorry).07:08
ctsOk, I'm good, the official version re-flashed fine. Thanks for holding your hands over my head ;)07:25
orly_owlWhat is needed to build a libre hardware webcam?07:55
wolfspraulorly_owl: how libre do you want to have it?08:05
orly_owlAs much as possible.08:05
wolfspraulhe :-)08:05
orly_owlI sense mocking.08:06
wolfspraulyou need to tell us more about your background and what you try to achieve08:06
wolfsprauloh no08:06
wolfspraultotally not08:06
wolfspraulthe best free camera I know right now is the Elphel 35308:06
wolfspraulbut it's expensive and can hardly be called a 'webcam'08:06
orly_owlyes i know it08:06
wolfspraulit's really a _long_ story with the 'libre'08:06
wolfspraulshould the entire production process be openly documented? should all machines using during production be openly documented? should the entire production process be free of patents?08:07
wolfspraulthose things are nearly impossible08:07
orly_owlI hear that the chipset/cpu it uses can output ogg video, which is nice.08:07
wolfspraulunless you want to go back to something like the flintstones08:07
wolfspraulyes and no08:07
wolfspraulthe older Elphel 323 had an Ogg Theora encoder in the fpga, but it was never forward-ported to 35308:07
Action: orly_owl looks up fpga08:08
wolfsprauljust to finish the 'libre', some projects that are not satisfied with the state of things in the IC world use fpgas08:08
orly_owlwhy did they drop it08:08
wolfspraulbut fpgas themselves are super proprietary ICs08:08
wolfspraulyeah well08:08
wolfspraulif hardware is neglected for 20+ years that's what happens08:09
wolfspraulsome people think you can design a 'freedom box' with Marvell technology :-)08:09
orly_owlit becomes rubbish like mr pc bios?08:09
wolfspraulGandhi shopping for some AK47s...08:09
orly_owlnow that's an analogy i understand!08:09
wolfspraulwhen you say 'webcam', what specs and pricepoint do you have in mind?08:09
wolfsprauland why libre, which part should be libre?08:10
orly_owlcheap as hell, VGA08:10
wolfspraulthe camera modules foudn in pretty much all webcams are proprietary ICs that an just give you jpegs08:10
wolfspraulit's a CMOS image sensor + IC logic to create JPEGs08:10
orly_owlthe internal firmware should be libre abd the circuitry08:10
wolfspraulis that libre enough?08:10
wolfspraulwell that's why I'm asking08:10
orly_owlwell i guess i want a libre IC08:10
wolfspraulfor the Elphel cameras this type of openess/freedom would by far not be enough08:11
wolfspraulnot flexible enough, too much hard coded in IC08:11
wolfspraulbut maybe for you that's OK?08:11
wolfspraulI assume you don't want to make your own libre CMOS08:11
orly_owli dont know08:11
wolfspraulunless you have a few billion USD for make a libre IC foundry08:11
orly_owlah right08:11
wolfsprauls/for make/to make/08:11
orly_owlnot handy, no08:11
orly_owlleft my walet at home08:12
wolfspraulyou want an external USB webcam?08:12
wolfspraulthere are no good camera/video standards in USB land, right?08:12
orly_owlactually there is08:12
wolfsprauloh good. didn't know.08:12
orly_owlUVC has brought some order08:12
wolfspraulgreat, so there is a standard USB procotol now?08:13
orly_owllogitech are making UVC webcams08:13
wolfspraulthen maybe you can treat everything behind USB as a black box, and that's free enough?08:13
wolfspraulkinda like a 3G dongle08:13
orly_owlyeah its a standard afaik08:13
orly_owlUSB video device class08:13
wolfspraulnot that I am satisfied with that but I just try to understand your motivations...08:13
wolfspraulI assume there are Linux drivers for that08:14
wolfspraulso why don't you just buy a UVC webcam and done?08:14
orly_owlwhy would i be here if that was the case? :p08:14
orly_owlmy motivations are: webcams have a massive markup on them, dont claim to support GNU+Linux on the box and are of (what i think is) poor video quality08:15
orly_owli feel ripped off paying $50 to find that it cannot provide smooth video08:16
wolfspraulok, #1 - #308:16
wolfspraul#2 seems just a printing problem?08:16
wolfspraulyes but 50 USD retail for an entire product is a great pricepoint08:16
wolfspraulthat thing costs maybe 12 USD or so in China08:16
wolfspraulif it's 50 in BestBuy, for example08:16
wolfspraulmaybe 15 USD in China, but that's it08:17
orly_owlits more the case of being able to walk in to a shop and /know/ that this webcam will work on my GNU+Linux system. and i can say to someone who asks what webcam to buy 'look for <logo> on the box'08:17
wolfspraulok but above you said you want a libre IC08:17
wolfspraulthat's a massively bigger undertaking08:18
wolfsprauland it would need to be driven by desires beyond convenience or what's written on the box08:18
orly_owlthat's the only way to stop it being a black box, isn't it?08:18
wolfspraulyes sure08:18
wolfspraulso there is Elphel, you know it already08:18
wolfspraulwonderful people, I visited them in Salt Lake City a few months ago actually08:18
wolfspraulthe cameras are expensive though, 1000-2000 USD until it's all said and done08:19
orly_owlyeah :/08:19
wolfsprauland that is not going to change, it may even go up08:19
wolfspraulbut these cameras exist, for many years, Elphel is a true pioneer in copyleft hardware08:19
wolfspraulon the practical side, well, it's a long long way to what you are used to08:19
wolfspraulauto-focus, auto-zooming, auto-whatnot08:19
wolfspraulall missing08:20
orly_owlwho buys their cameras?08:20
wolfspraulvery widely distributed08:20
wolfspraulsome winemakers are watching the ripeness of their grapes08:20
wolfsprauloceanographic institutes08:20
wolfspraulmilitary (flew on global hawk), tanks08:21
zearisn't google using elphel for street view?08:21
orly_owlah interesting08:21
wolfspraulmany industrial applications08:21
wolfspraulit goes case by case08:21
wolfspraulbut really I think what you are after is something totally different08:22
wolfsprauland maybe impossible08:22
wolfspraulwhat those tiny camera modules / black boxes in smartphones etc. can do nowadays is just unbelievable08:22
wolfsprauland whether they cost 10 or 20 USD, it's really all zero, because the real thing behind those innovations are many years and multi-billion USD investments by many companies08:23
zearwolfspraul, wasn't it global hawk that used no encryption for sending/receiving the data and talibs learned to receive the images from it? :D08:23
wolfspraulso when you come and really want to free something, suddenly you look at this huge pile of work, for years you would have only totally non-competitive stuff, etc.08:23
wolfspraulto compare, if I build a free phone for you now, I would be very happy if it could compete with the GSM phones in the early 90s08:24
wolfspraulanother camera project we are just starting now is called Xue08:24
wolfspraulit's a different concept from Elphel, tries to be much cheaper08:25
wolfspraulI think it's great too, but will take at least several months before we even have first prototype boards, then there will be no software, etc.08:25
wolfsprauland we won't have something to compete with your 50 USD webcam for a long time08:25
orly_owlso basically08:26
orly_owla few billion $ is needed to start anything08:26
wolfspraulno, I didn't say that08:26
wolfspraulyou can start anywhere08:26
wolfspraulbut there will be big compromises you have to make08:26
wolfspraulso for example you listed 3 things you don't like about off-the-shelf webcams08:26
wolfspraul1. you feel a 50 USD price point 'rips you off'08:27
wolfspraul2. you don't like that the box has no label that says "works with GNU/Linux"08:27
wolfspraulwhat was #3? ... :-)08:27
wolfspraul3. poor video quality08:27
wolfspraulof course the #3 is because of the 50 USD, which is 12-15 at the source in China08:27
wolfspraulnot exactly enough for anything good on the optical side08:28
wolfsprauland also not for a decent CMOS image sensor size08:28
wolfspraulat that pricepoint every penny matters, so it's designed to be able to be sold for 50 USD08:28
wolfsprauland then you even feel 'ripped off', so maybe you want to buy it for 40 USD, or 30?08:28
orly_owla bit better, yeah08:29
wolfspraulso to make you happy, with your set of motivations, yeah, that's hard08:29
wolfspraulsomeone would indeed need a few billion just for the fun of seeing whether a free camera for 40 USD instead of a proprietary one for 50 USD (if that's even the case in the end) will sell better08:29
orly_owlthen make it libre and $200, its a start08:29
wolfspraulwell, nobody will make that kind of bet :-)08:29
wolfspraulhe, OK08:29
wolfspraulthat's a serious margin!08:29
wolfspraulyes, once you introduce this kind of margin, then even if the volume is only a few thousand units, let alone several ten thousand, you can do a lot of free innovations08:30
wolfspraulhardware is no mystery, no magic as a well known company tries to tell us08:30
wolfspraulbut I can tell you, very few people are willing to pay 150 USD more for something only because on a very abstract level, somewhere inside, there is something 'libre'08:31
wolfspraulmost people prefer mentall to make a big black box around hardware, and outsource it to China or elsewhere08:31
orly_owlbut a few thousand nerds might, thus spurring libre webcams to a lower price point (hopefully)08:31
wolfsprauland they overlook that there's a lot of software that gets ignored that way, but after many years it's a bit late (and hard) to suddenly change that08:32
wolfspraulfollow the Xue project08:32
wolfspraulbut the main IC on that board alone will be around 50 USD :-)08:32
wolfspraulprice to buy just the IC08:32
orly_owlper unit?08:32
wolfspraultrust me, the people that are selling webcams for 50 USD today have made several billion USD investments over many years08:33
wolfspraulthis is not falling from the sky suddenly08:33
orly_owlbut its still a proprietry IC in Xue isnt it?08:33
wolfspraulI'm totally with you on changing the libre aspect, but if you neglect something for 20 years, well maybe it also takes 20 years to catch up?08:33
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: 2 ddr decopling capacitor has been replaced http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/437a1bb08:33
wolfspraulthere is a Xue commit :-)08:34
orly_owlmaybe it does08:34
wolfspraulwork is happening as we speak...08:34
orly_owli understood ddr08:34
wolfspraulwell, we are using (proprietary) FPGAs to start doing GPL licensed ICdesign08:34
wolfspraulplus there are no libre FPGAs, and at least to me evolutionary the libre ASIC must come before the libre FPGA08:34
wolfsprauland we try to not create dependencies to the specific proprietary technology we are using08:35
orly_owlthats a good plan08:35
wolfspraulso we try to keep our GPL licensed IC design portable from Xiling to Altera or other (proprietary) fpga makers08:35
wolfspraulthat's as good as it gets right now08:35
wolfspraulat a later stage, we could aim for our own copyleft licensed ASIC production process, and then also to make our own copyleft fpgas08:35
wolfspraulbut they still have to be somewhat competitive with the proprietary fpgas at the time, and then you are back to a problem similar like your webcam08:36
wolfspraulmaybe we can make a free fpga, but it will look like one 10-20 years ago, and be 10* more expensive still08:36
wolfspraullike I said, that's what happens when you neglect a big area for many years, and others keep investing while you are not08:37
wolfspraulit will change, but it will take time, many years08:37
wolfspraulit's not worse than the state of GNU software in the 80's, I think :-)08:38
orly_owlsounds like it08:38
wolfspraulthe Windows 95 moment, the mega dominance of some proprietary ICs, stil has to come08:38
orly_owlback then you threw some computers and hackers into a room and out came GNU08:39
wolfspraulthere's also a lot going on in hardware08:39
wolfspraulbut in the bigger picture (and your perspective is very valid, I am not mocking it), it's really hard to have something competitive08:39
wolfspraullike you feeling ripped off with your 50 USD webcam08:39
orly_owlyeah i know08:40
wolfspraulbut someone has to invest hundreds of millions even more first08:40
wolfsprauland that has already happened, that's why this amazing piece of technology (your webcam) can be sold for _ONLY_ 50 USD08:40
wolfsprauland not, for example, 10,000 USD08:40
orly_owlconsumer pc hardware is overpriced junk half the time08:40
orly_owlthe jerky video from webcams just /really/ annoys me :/08:41
wolfspraullet's do it better, it's hard but I am happy you are showing up here and interested08:41
wolfspraulover time your respect for what the current industry, proprietary as it may be, has achieved, will grow08:42
wolfspraulI am very interested in cameras, we get there.08:44
wolfspraulyou can follow what's happening at Elphel, or our very own Xue project08:44
orly_owlXue sounds more reachable at least08:45
orly_owlhow did you decide to make a network camera08:45
orly_owland not a usb webcam08:45
wolfspraulI'm not even sure that has been decided like that.08:46
wolfspraulfirst Xue is a derivative from Milkymist, which currently has only USB host support, not USB client08:46
wolfsprauland even the USB host support is far from a complete USB implementation (on Milkymist)08:46
wolfspraulthis is all such a massive construction site I don't even know where to start08:47
wolfsprauland then Xue is only in alpha stage right now, not 1 working board exists08:47
wolfspraulconceptual stage08:47
wolfspraulcompared to that Elphel, for example, is shipping working cameras for 8 years or so08:47
wolfspraulXue is really just an idea right now, and we are trying to implement it in reality (=hardware)08:48
wolfspraulonce we have the first working boards a lot of SW development needs to happen08:48
wolfspraulthen we can think about what products to go after08:48
wolfsprauland then a decision such as 'network camera' vs. 'usb webcam' will be discussed08:49
wolfsprauldoes network camera mean it's powered over Ethernet?08:49
wolfsprauldoes 'usb webcam' mean it must be < 100 USD retail, even less?08:49
wolfspraulno idea, really, we are far from even having to discuss such questions08:49
orly_owloh right08:50
wolfspraulwe are trying to do the entire Xue electrical design in KiCad08:50
wolfspraula GPL licensed EDA tool08:50
orly_owllets look that up08:50
wolfspraulthat's a very daring move, and we will see whether we succeed or have to jump to a proprietary tool again, if we have to make a choice whether we want a functioning board soon, or instead work on freeing tools first08:51
wolfspraulhey, cool. the screenshot actually is KiCad!08:52
wolfspraulthe advantage of the picture policied of the WMF08:52
wolfspraulin the industry, KiCad is very very rare08:52
wolfspraulto say the least08:52
wolfspraulI hope we can succeed with Xue in KiCad, we'll see08:53
orly_owlsounds good!08:53
wolfspraulto me that feels like 100 questions before "is it a network camera or a usb webcam?"08:53
wolfspraulI have "will we be able to pull off the design in KiCad?" as my next big thing...08:53
wolfspraulbtw, Elphel uses a proprietary EDA software as well08:55
wolfspraulthey want to make functioning cameras today :-)08:55
wolfspraulwell it's a big construction site this libre hardware stuff08:55
wolfspraulwe have to split the workload a little08:55
orly_owlyes its a good start08:55
wolfspraulso as long as we keep our goals in mind, it doesn't matter (to me) to use proprietary tools here and there to get started08:55
wolfspraulin fact I think that's great focus08:55
orly_owlas long as you work towards total freedom08:56
orly_owlso what motivates you to help with this project?08:56
wolfspraulit's a lot of fun, learn about new technologies all the time, make new friends. and I think it can become a real (money making) business too.08:57
orly_owlits a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll? :)09:01
wolfspraulit's fun, you should join, but given your starting motivations maybe it's too much to ask from you? don't know09:01
orly_owloh i feel too involved already09:01
wolfspraulif the printing on the box is not right for you, I would just take a big black pen and write "designed for GNU/Linux" on it, to make you happy09:01
wolfspraulproblem solved :-)09:01
orly_owlim organising stuff will my local user group09:02
orly_owlstuff for software freedom day09:02
orly_owlgetting CDs made09:02
wolfspraulcool, maybe someone should buy our lovely little Ben NanoNote09:02
orly_owli just feel very busy09:02
orly_owlyeah i should organise a group buy after SFD maybe09:03
wolfsprauljump into free software on embedded systems, OpenWrt, Jlime (OpenEmbedded), Debian with 32 MB RAM :-)09:03
wolfspraulthat would be great09:03
orly_owlyep, openwrt on WRT54G here. their documentation is just horrible though. so confusing09:03
orly_owli put familiar linux on a compaq ipaq. didnt do much with it though09:04
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: mic2550.lib added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/279ca2409:05
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: 2.5V USB PHY connected http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/9e5231c09:36
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: 2.5V cooper pour extended http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/93e7def09:36
wpwraklekernel: the truth revealed at long last ;-)12:34
kristianpaulis it a joke?12:46
kristianpauli'll find one for verilog :p12:51
wpwrakkristianpaul: would you rather use VHDL ? :)13:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: noe13:16
Action: FrankBlues waves14:35
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Routing DDR-2 http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ac39b8215:25
wpwrakmurphy's law on USB: one you've built a sufficient large collection of USB devices, all of a sudden you run out of "good" cables and only find those that bring to light all the weird bugs15:27
bartbesoh that happens to all collectios15:27
wpwrakaha ! bad contact in the connector. plus a bug in my USB library. and just how nicely they work together.16:25
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: lib/usb.c (open_usb): Stupid beginner's mistake: wrong operator precedence due http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/79396b116:31
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Made communication with CNTR board more robust. Added documentation. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c7303e417:49
johnny2hi can someone here help me with compatibility issue?20:02
kristianpauljohnny2: hey20:58
kristianpauljust people like questions here ;)20:58
kristianpauljust ask*20:58
johnny2i need to ask another question not related to compatibility21:01
johnny2i want to know which inexpensive graphic card can run crysis game on very high setting?21:02
mthjohnny2: this channel is not about PC hardware: Qi Hardware is the name of a company that made a handheld Linux-based computer21:12
mthas for your question: inexpensive and high settings Crysis are not really compatible - but most reviews on sites like Anandtech or Tom's Hardware contain Crysis benchmarks so you can see how well the different cards score21:14
wpwrakmth: naw, the company is called something like "sharism at work ltd." :) and i think they're making more bens just these days.21:22
mthwell, it's not easy to be both accurate and concise :)21:23
wpwrakmth: wolfgang did a good job at obfuscating his traces ;-)21:25
wolfspraulwe started as a Qi Hardware Inc. registered in California21:32
wolfspraulthen later we thought it would be better to make Qi Hardware the community, and have a separate manufacturing company manufacturing stuff.21:33
wolfspraulof course the idea is that the manufacturing company is just one of many, since all knowledge is copylefted21:33
Action: kristianpaul founded slides about shanzhai vs qi21:33
wolfspraulbut there is only one manufacturer now, and that is indeed a company registered in Hong Kong, called Sharism at Work Ltd.21:33
wolfspraulsomewhere in the middle we also had this idea to rename Qi Hardware to "Qi Inside", but only only we got pretty clear language letters from Intel lawyers21:35
wolfsprauland probably there were some other ideas as well21:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: (intel) oh, did you ask them or did they spot you the moment you tried ?21:36
wolfspraulthey spotted the trademark registration21:36
wpwraknot bad :)21:36
wolfsprauland instead of using the official trademark 'opposition' path, threatened in mafia (aha, real world) style with crazy fines etc.21:36
kristianpaulwell is 1nt3l... soo21:36
wolfspraulif I ever have some time, I go back to this21:37
wolfspraulI will register a "Wolfgang Inside" trademark and sell t-shirts21:37
wolfspraultell them in advance I will do this, and that I will not give in to their threats, instead I see them at the official trademark dispute courthouse21:37
wolfspraulsomething they want to avoid at all costs, backroom deals are so much nicer...21:37
wolfspraulbut I have no time for this right now...21:37
wolfspraulkristianpaul: oh trust me I will do it. I like this kind of stuff. :-)21:38
wpwrakso many windmills to fight in IPland ;-)21:38
wolfspraulyes, that's why not now21:38
wolfspraulbut I really didn't like how they threaten you behind the curtain21:38
wolfspraulwhat is the legal system for? they make a mockery of it21:38
wolfspraulone would think the trademark office exists to settle disputes, but they don't like the uncertainty of due process, of course...21:38
mthor trademark "Evil Inside" and let Intel break their heads over whether they should claim they own that or not ;)21:39
wolfspraulthat was the main part that pissed me off21:39
wolfspraul"fear tax" all over21:39
wolfspraulI have no problem following the law, and if the law (trademark law!) says that {word} Inside is Intel's, fine, I will follow21:39
wolfspraulbut I never get the chance to find out from an independent party (aka judge)21:39
wolfspraulthat's not right21:39
wolfspraulanyway, that's just the Qi Inside side story21:40
wolfspraulno worries guys, I will not get distracted on that one...21:40
wolfspraulmth: they will come after you.21:40
wolfspraulthese lawyers have nice cushioned deals with Intel and I'm sure they charge the hell out of Intel for every letter and sneaky action they can come up with against you.21:41
wolfspraulthe law is theirs, to the last point.21:41
wolfspraulif you are paid 500 USD an hour it's also worth to be a little creative... :-)21:41
mthyeah, it's like spending money on weapons, most are bought with defensive intentions but they tend to get used offensively eventually21:42
wolfspraulis the Qi Hardware vs. Sharism thing clear now?21:42
wolfspraulSharism is just a small manufacturer, needs to be profitable. It's a primitive little business.21:42
wolfspraulQi Hardware is a grandiose free the world movement.21:43
mthit's clear now and it wasn't clear to me before, so all this was actually useful :)21:43
kristianpaulyes and the copyleft hardware words let me add :)21:44
wpwrakhmm .. with a 15 pF load and sloppy soldering on board #1 my crystal is 13 ppm slow. with a 10 pF load and neat soldering on board #2, it's about 20 ppm fast. before, without load caps, they were both within 5 ppm of each other. what conclusions do i draw from this ? *scratch,scratch*21:49
mthprobably that you have an insufficient number of measurements?21:50
wpwrakthat's always a good answer ;-)21:51
wpwrak"after ten years of research, we conclude that more research is needed" :)21:51
mthalthough once of my teachers said that 2 measurements is always good, since you can draw a straight line through them21:51
wpwraki did actually two measurements on each board. they differ by 1 ppm each. (i should add that my theoretical error bounds are in the order of 100 ppm, but they seems to be grossly inflated. the main factor there is relative NTP accuracy, which seems to be pretty good.)21:54
mthand you have factors like temperature at similar values?21:56
mthI'm mostly a software person, so correct me if I say stupid things about hardware21:57
wpwrakmth: temperature may vary by a few K, yes. there's little i can do about this :-(21:57
wpwrakthe good news is that fixing the clock that's a bit too fast should be well within the reach of the trim capacitors in the chip. let's see how this goes ...22:01
mthdo you need clocks that are this accurate?22:01
mthyou could always reduce the error margin by simply doing a longer measurement, right? since the NTP accuracy only comes into play at the start and end of the measurement and is distributed over the entire interval22:03
wpwrakmth: i need 40 ppm over the (ben's) operating temperature range. the crystal has a base accuracy of 15 ppm plus 15 ppm over its temperature range (-10 - 75 C)22:04
wpwrakmth: (long measurement) yes, that's what i'm doing. the ones i'm running now take about 1000 seconds and seem to be good to maybe 1-2 ppm.22:05
uncloudedhey xiangfu, have you got time to test a nightsky .ipk with some debugging in it?23:56
xiangfuunclouded: but I don't know how to do that :(23:57
uncloudedI'll supply a new .ipk that prints some debugging when it starts23:57
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added title, author, and revision to all schematics and layouts. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c1b7b8123:58
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Populated load capacitors of the crystal. Started organizing issues in ECNs. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5b73e8b23:58
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Picking time in the middle of the interval, not its edge, and reduce http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/85ab2c423:58
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