#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-08-23

wpwrak(kicad) phew. lots of questions. i need some food first :)00:00
wolfspraul[kicad] sure, take your time. Most of these things are not technical anyway, rather process oriented and how multiple people and even vendors work together.00:08
wolfspraulthat's as much a communication challenge as it is a technical challenge00:08
wolfspraulbut we need to start/continue :-)00:08
wolfspraulalso we need to have a process that is practical enough for the real people and vendors we are working with, not something that only works in theory00:11
rohheh. i would gladly be a tester for that. havend had time for working myself into kicad00:22
rohmostly because of every time i needed some real schem or pcb, some eagly guy was around who 'just did it'00:23
wolfspraulroh: just jump in. asking questions is the first step, that's basically what I do all day long :-)00:25
wolfspraulfor kicad, my personal opinion is not everything needs to be stored in revision control00:25
wolfspraulit makes sense to have the schedule in the wiki, and to work with wiki as well in some other areas, like collecting errata, test reports, layout notes, etc.00:26
wolfspraulI would probably export generated files such as gerber/ai/stencil as well, and upload into the wiki. it's too hard to generate them from the real 'source' data, and depends on too many things that can break too easily, even with kicad version upgrades.00:27
rohwolfspraul i think the fist one is: users dont compile sw themselves. we need proper packages.00:27
wolfspraulbut let's see, it's a big discussion and we try these things out step by step rather than just announcing the perfect process that actually is not perfect at all and nobody follows anyway :-)00:27
rohwolfspraul i got like 10 computers i would need kicad to work on, and i am not really in the mood for being the one doing packages for them soon00:28
wolfspraulwhy 10? and why do you need kicad on all 10?00:28
rohwolfspraul doing and using schematics is a team effort. and in our hackspace we got compuers for all and some for special purposes. and everybody got his own also. so i would need to install it on atleast 4 or 5 stationary computers and the rest is personal notebooks. all with a bit different set-ups00:29
rohluckily most of them ubuntu00:29
wolfspraulwell that's why I think our projects server could auto-plot schematics into ps/pdf/png files on every commit.00:30
wolfspraulit doesn't work yet but that's one thing I think I already firmly have on my todo list00:30
wolfspraulthen we see who uses it and how00:30
wolfspraulalso where those files should be stored, whether it's important to keep old revisions around or not00:31
wolfspraulanother problem is that kicad is not very scriptable, so this won't help us when it comes to the gerber files00:31
rohtrue. would want the same too, but its hard. kicad's pro arguments are a)text files instead of binaries in the svn and b) opensource tool. when it comes to 'usability' (which includes not needing to compile som svn snapshot) i think it still needs to go a long way.00:32
wolfspraulalso I am looking for practical little steps, not some grand plan that means no real production for years :-)00:32
rohanyhow.. ubuntu has packages from 2007 or 2008.., i guess those are incompatible to what you guys do now?00:32
wolfspraulnext run is Milkymist One RC2, and it will be Altium-based again00:32
wolfspraulcan't wait for the KiCad process00:32
wolfspraulI don't know, different people use different KiCad versions, and upstream is not very open-minded about some patches either00:33
wolfsprauleven Werner's --plot parameter to be able to auto-plot schematics was not accepted upstream :-)00:33
wolfspraulI think the whole GUI should be scriptable...00:34
rohwolfspraul my only point is: the people who can help you most with making process, are not the ones which are in the mood manually installing stuff in undefined versions and keeping that stuff up to date. thats what packages are for. in the end i would be happiily using some ppa if it includes packages for x86 and x86-64, for ubuntu 9.10 and 10.0400:34
wolfspraulyes I agree. That's what a lot of my mail is about, no?00:35
rohi am just the wrong guy to generate and care for that ppa. thats somebody who got a clue about kicad needs to do (package maintainer)00:35
wolfspraulthe barriers of entry are too high right now00:35
uncloudedhow does gEDA compare to KiCad?00:36
rohack. i dont know any cad sw which doesnt support scripting nearly everything00:36
rohgEDA was basically much too simplistic.00:36
roheven for hobbyists. atleast as i looked last time.00:36
rohand segfaulting enough that it annoyed me away.00:37
rohi think its a few years of work away from eagle and kicad when it comes to details.00:37
uncloudedI've not seen it segfault ( installed from the Debian Lenny repos)00:38
rohgeda got a nice thing tho: symbols are the same as schems.00:38
rohso to define a 'part' you can use the same tools and workflow as for using these 'parts' in bigger assemblys.00:38
rohkinda recursive, but very nice.00:38
rohunclouded i think lenny wasnt released when i last tried to use it really.00:39
rohdoes geda have converters for part libs now?00:39
uncloudedshame it's not tough enough for professional work yet then.  it's got everything I need but then maybe I'm not even a very advanced hobbyist ;)00:39
uncloudedroh: sorry, I don't know. I create my symbols and footprints by hand with digital calipers00:42
uncloudedprobably not yet judging by this page: http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:format_translation00:43
rohah.. there is a ppa https://launchpad.net/~paxer/+archive/ppa01:02
rohbut it doesnt have werners patches i guess01:02
gasherohello, my nanonote down when I update flash.01:48
gasheroThe screen say In: serial Out: lcd Err: lcd01:48
gasheroIs there anybody can help me ?01:48
wpwrakah, interesting. stefan schmidt is working with the cc2420, the predecessor of the cc2520. it's a small world :)09:53
wolfspraulwow, didn't know10:06
wolfspraulwpwrak: some feedback from me regarding your brick&mortar vs. blueprint thoughts10:06
wolfspraulin general I think 'in the industry', there is a lot more reviewing and sharing of knowledge going on than you realize or acknowledge10:06
wolfspraulevery good IC vendor offers real solid FAE tech support10:07
wolfspraulevery module maker, even makers of passive components!10:07
wolfspraulso by going to a KiCad process (which we will), I just want to be very clear where we make it harder for others to look over our shoulder, or how we can avoid such complications in advance, and provide them with the files they need to be able to help10:08
wolfspraulthe typical thing as in sharing full EDA files won't work if we use KiCad, because nobody will be able to deal with them10:08
wolfspraulbut if we know this in advance, and can share PDF schematics, or PDF/PNG/GERBER/whatever other general format layouts, I think we can still achieve 90% of the benefits without sacrificing our tool of choice10:09
wolfspraulI'm somehow too lazy to post this to the list, I wait until we have some hard facts and specific cases, then we can discuss a specific solution10:10
wolfspraulrather than trading opinions forever10:10
wolfsprauland yes - PCB makers (depending on who it is and what the nature of the project is) may have excellent people on staff, I won't even start with the SMT places10:11
wolfspraulif we cut ourselves off from all these experience people - not good :-)00010:12
wpwrak(reviews) okay, FAEs and such, yes. i just didn't fine the pcb/smt example very convincing, since these are production shops, not really engineering shops.10:15
wpwrakah, you just wrote about it :)10:15
wpwrak(catching up)10:15
wolfspraulnot true10:15
wolfspraulit's your choice of course10:15
wolfspraulyou can work with a shop and keep them blind as in "hey I know everything, just run this file through your machine and send me the results"10:16
wolfspraulpeople that work like that often will then start into an endles rant about 'incompetencies' 'stupid mistakes' etc. etc.10:16
wolfspraulthe people that I know work in actual real production (=high volume) all don't work like that10:17
wolfspraulthis is not how the industry functions, really10:17
wpwrakthe modus operandi i know of are those mail order pcb shops. you send them the files, they somehow toss them into their machines, out come the pcbs. even with electrical testing and such. they really don't seem to care what you send them, as long as it's a gerber or they can generate one from it.10:17
wolfspraulit's the opposite10:17
wolfsprauloh sure10:17
wolfsprauland of the x billion devices made each year, how many do you think are made in this way?10:17
wpwrakno idea :)10:17
wolfspraulI don't know either, but I'd say 0.01% or so10:17
wolfspraulthere is a lot of 'experience' traded all the time, you really need to hook into tha10:18
wolfsprauland it is offered, constantly10:18
wolfspraulbecause everybody knows without it you cannot be successful anyway :-)10:18
wpwrakbut what feedback do you get from the pcb shop ? any process limitations really ought to be in your design parameters10:18
wolfspraulwe need to look into a specific case, definitely me personally I can't give you a convincing example now10:19
wolfspraulof course it also depends on the complexity of the board, the riskiness etc.10:19
wolfspraulmy point was just that by using a non-standard EDA tool, we need to take extra precautions to not cut ourselves off from valuable help10:20
wolfspraulI think as long as we do that, we can minimize the damage. PDFs and other commonly used file formats will probably do as well, if we only have them.10:20
wpwraki can't really imagine things much beyond "here's what we want to do. we know it's tricky. what do you recommend ?". but you wouldn't need access to the design files for that. maybe a screenshot.10:21
wolfspraulyes, but don't underestimate the power of habits10:21
wolfspraulthey are used to getting the PADS files10:21
wolfspraulchecking here, checking there10:21
wolfsprauleverybody has licensed or pirate copies of all standard EDAs on their notebooks10:22
wpwraki can see a benefit in having them as a means for making sure people really sent them all the files and everything in a consistent state, yes10:22
wolfspraulyou are just putting yourself out of that universe10:22
wolfspraulmy point is more about cutting yourself off from feedback10:22
wolfsprauland the dangerous thing is - you will never know if there would have been feedback :-)10:22
wpwrakthe problem with those big names EDA tools is that they create a huge barrier for cooperation inside our projects10:22
wolfspraulyes sure, no worries10:22
wolfspraulno need to discuss with me10:23
wolfspraulI just wanted to alert you to the maybe unimaginable level of personal support that is typically happening.10:23
wpwrakmaybe they make it easier to talk to the outside, but you're probably trading a small evil for a big evil10:23
wolfspraulit's irrational sometimes10:23
wolfspraulI was in endless such meetings.10:23
johnny6hi can someone tell me what is intel i5 750 equivalent amd processor?10:23
wolfspraulwpwrak: give you one example - Murata10:23
wolfspraulin the phone of our former employer, the Murata components added up to 10 cents or so, we had almost none10:24
bartbesjohnny6: wrong channel10:24
wolfspraulyet we were offered access to their FAE, at any time, access to their lab, lab equipment, etc.10:24
wpwrakwe seem to attract a lot of "pc shop" type of questions. i wonder if people think there is a place called "qi hw" at the mall ;-)10:25
wolfspraulI directly asked them how they could ever hope to make this back with our bom and volume, but they said they don't work like that.10:25
bartbeswpwrak: I think they think qi somehow means questions ;)10:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: sounds great. true idealists even :)10:25
wolfspraultheir assumption is that without this type of inside-out support, their customers won't be successful anyway10:25
wolfspraulthis is how the industry works10:25
wolfspraulyou can complain about mistakes in datasheets the rest of your life10:26
wolfspraulever wondered why people can still produce and sell working stuff today?10:26
wpwrakwolfspraul: with time, you acquire the skills to interpret the data sheet bugs :)10:26
bartbesbecause they work in their basements? ;)10:26
wolfspraulyou think from the perspective of a strong individual with vast knowledge10:26
wolfspraulbut most companies are not run like this, it's more like lots of people throwing all they know together to maybe make a working product10:27
wolfspraulbut lo and behold, they are actually quite successful that way10:27
wolfspraulso anyway, my style would be to always keep the possibility open to get support10:27
wolfspraulwelcome all offers, make sure we have what they need to look over our shoulders10:28
wpwraki don't think we're creating much of an obstacle there. for most things, you should be able to explain them with pencil and paper.10:28
wolfspraulwell whether it's an obstacle or not I would like to hear from them10:29
wolfspraulKiCad definitely is an obstacle10:29
wpwrakthere are areas where things get trickier. but then you're probably beyond the limits of the "standard" EDA tools already. (emi/rf simulation and such)10:29
wolfspraulnobody, literally nobody, will be able to 'quickly' open that file and give you some feedback10:29
wpwrakkicad is unfamiliar and they're not using it. so i think you'll be fine as long as you don't make them think you want them to invest resources in having kicad too.10:30
wolfsprauloh of course not10:30
wolfspraulbut you want them to be able to look over your shoulder as I said10:30
wolfspraulso if KiCad doesn't work, it needs to be in other common file formats10:30
wpwrakgerber, pdf, ...10:31
wpwrakit probably does take more effort to prepare the questions that way. you can't just dump them the design files and say "who does it not work ?"10:32
wolfspraulstupid high-level questions10:32
wolfspraul"which of your 25 ICs should I use here?"10:32
wpwrakbut then, this degree of effort is probably already necessary to run open projects in a sane way10:32
wpwraksome of these questions may simply be a means to avoid giving an answer based on insufficient information by making the question somebody else's problem ;-)10:34
wpwrakif you pass it around long enough, someone will just shrug and give an answer, even if they don't quite know either :)10:34
wolfspraulit's about finding someone with experience to share their snippet of experience with you10:34
wolfspraulas opposed to assuming over time you will know everything anyway and everybody else just needs to press buttons10:35
wpwrakyes. most of the time, what you really want to ask is "what do all the others use here ?" :)10:35
wolfspraulthe first approach will bring you to an actual production of sellable goods soonder, the second approach much much later, even though you are definitely wiser by then :-)10:35
wolfspraulyes, that also10:35
wolfspraulthere are many things really10:35
wolfsprauleverybody tries to help, share what they know10:35
wolfspraulbut if the process and tools are uncommon, that gets a lot harder10:36
wolfspraulthat was my only point10:36
wolfspraulit's managable I think10:36
wpwrakwell, i prefer to have that knowledge in the open part of the project. that way, it can be reused.10:36
wolfspraulin fact we need to create those 'easy viewable' files ourselves, because even for many of our contributions the KiCad barrier is too high10:36
wolfspraulyes true, of course, nobody is against that. but at some point I assume you also want to manufacture something.10:37
wolfspraulnobody is against documentation, it's just that things are constantly moving forward, so many people don't take the time10:37
wolfspraulyou need to pull in every bit of help you can get, that's my experience10:37
wolfspraulas you know I have worked at some real big disaster projects :-)10:37
wolfspraullike I said, I think if we create those easily vieable/reviewable file formats for ourselves, the same stuff should work for outside vendors who want to help10:39
wolfspraulbut I need to double check in specific cases that we don't lock someone out by using KiCad10:39
wpwrakwell, documentation in a very broad sense. probably nobody will sit down and write a book. but if you need to solve X and you see that there's something similar to that X already in another project, then it's nice if you can find out about the reasons why that X was done in this or that way.10:39
wolfspraulwe spent quite a bit of time on those layout notes, even you think it's too much? :-)10:40
wpwrak(viewable files) yes, i fully agree. like the things i generated in gta02-core.10:40
wpwrakwith the layout, where did things actually fail ? did anyone actually try to make a layout yet ?10:43
wpwrak(manually, with the non-Free push router, whatever)10:43
wolfsprauldon't know, too many projects and too long ago10:43
wolfspraulthe next one is Xue, which is also getting a bit chaotic already.10:44
wolfspraulwell open process is hard10:44
wolfspraulbut we try, definitely some good pieces now10:44
wpwraki think people just need to get their hands dirty. then we can discuss concrete problems. right now, all the layout discussion is a bit too abstract for my taste.10:44
wolfspraulI will take a closer look at how you created 'easily viewable' files in 02-core10:44
wpwrakchaos is normal :)10:45
wolfspraulso my point about industry help got across?10:46
wolfspraulyou don't feel it that much in Buenos Aires probably, digi-key, pcbcart.com, etc.10:46
wpwrakone small gotcha: the easily viewable files are just schematics. no layout there so far.10:46
wolfspraulbut that's not how things work once you are in Taipei, Shenzhen, Shanghai, etc. personally10:46
wolfspraulthere are FAEs everywhere, 'open labs'10:46
wolfspraulthey _WANT_ you to use their lab to test their stuff10:47
wolfspraulthey have their people sitting there trying to help you10:47
wolfspraulyou just call a bit in advance, a few days, like with a doctor, so they reserve time for you10:47
wolfspraulyou go there with your stuff, and of course their lab is perfectly equipped around whatever ICs they are selling10:47
wpwrak(industry help) yup, got it. but i don;t really think we're creating a huge barrier. of course, we shouldn't be arrogant and, say, demand that Murata review our KiCad files.10:47
wolfspraulyes exactly, that will never happen :-)10:48
wpwrakmaybe some day, if it gets popular enough. but we're not quite there yet :)10:48
wpwrak(easily-viewable files) not sure what's best for the layout. very often, you actually do need the pcb program to navigate the layout in a meaningful way10:50
wpwrake.g., if you just have a stack of gerbers or - worse - pdfs, it's incredibly painful to trace tracks across vias10:51
wpwrakso that's for reviewing the routing and such10:51
wpwrakif you have things like ground clearances, emi in general, or specific patterns (footprints, thermal, etc.), gerber/pdf are fine10:52
wpwrakpdfs are also quite handy for spotting inefficient routes in the x/y plane. sometimes you don't see them on the screen, but they pop right out on a print.10:53
wolfspraulyes but that also makes a strong point for people sharing in file formats they know, specifically the (proprietary) EDA formats10:55
wpwrakwhat definitely should be there is the component placement. maybe also with a map for going from component reference to position10:55
wolfspraulbecause they will already know how to work with these tools in the way that will make it easiest for them to spot what they wanted to go after10:55
wolfspraulbut if you give them flat/umodifiable PDF/PNG/whatever, that may be a lot harder, or at least unusual10:56
wolfsprauland don't ask me for a specific example, I don't have one, I am just saying this 'in general'10:56
wpwrakif they have to debug our routing, yes :)10:56
wolfspraulbecause the normal thing you would share are just PADS/OrCad/Altium files10:57
wolfspraulit could be all sorts of things, down to footprint issues, mechanical placement, heating, EMI, RF, whatnot10:57
wolfspraulyou don't know in advance, that's my point10:57
wolfspraulif I cannot share a PADS file with someone, I also don't know what that person might have been able to help me with. But he says "oh, if you had a PADS file I could do all this wonderful stuff for you"10:58
wpwrakwell yes. why get out of bed. you don't know what might happen ;-))10:58
wolfspraul"everybody else has that, you don't"10:58
wolfspraulI am careful to dismiss such things as "nothing there anyway".10:59
wpwrakand they can probably do even more wonderful stuff if you use windows :)10:59
wpwrakand you wouldn't believe all the incredible things they can do with those binary-only drivers10:59
wpwrakand if you sign just that NDA, then ....10:59
wolfspraullike I said, from my experience, a number of years now, I get more and more careful to dismiss it.10:59
wpwrakit's just not compatible with an open process10:59
wolfspraulno the NDA in most cases I know is totally separate11:00
wolfspraulall people working on real tech issues hate NDAs11:00
wolfspraulbinary-only drivers, same, no. we are talking about the ee side here.11:00
wolfspraulI am not talking about salesmen who try to sell you some strange usb dongle. they will give you the 'windows driver' story :-)11:01
wpwrakyou're basically trying to organize your process from the outside in. so you maintain compatibility with ..11:01
wolfspraulno, I just want to be careful to not exclude valuable input.11:02
wolfspraulbut we are aware of it already, I will continue to dig and see what we can do to get all valuable things out...11:03
wolfsprauland if there is nothing, then there is nothing... also good.11:03
wolfspraulwpwrak: if Adam has a bit of time, I will ask him whether we got anything back in the Milkymist One RC1 run we had. That one used Altium and only 3 or 4 vendors helped I think.11:09
wolfspraulXilinx FAE, SMT, PCB, layout house11:10
wolfspraulmaybe he still remembers whether anyone provided valuable input or not, and if so whether they would have also come in had we used KiCad11:10
wpwrakback. had to get a delivery11:14
wpwrakah yes, that would be a good case study11:14
wolfspraulwpwrak: last one for today - you will like it's it a bit subversive...11:15
wolfsprauleven the component distributors (!) act as hubs for full EDA files11:15
wolfspraulhow so?11:15
wpwrakwow ;-) because people can't find the "BOM" button ? :)11:15
wolfspraulbecause they are under pressure from their customers (who are buying the components) to give them some copy/paste starting points11:15
wolfspraulno no11:15
wpwrakstarting points ?11:16
wolfspraulso you get the component, and you also get the EDA files of other products using that component :-)11:16
wpwrakhihi ;-)11:16
wolfspraulyeah, welcome to the real world11:16
wpwrakwell, it's not too different from what i'd hope would happen with projects centered around open tools :)11:16
wolfspraulat least those guys are not claiming they 'review' anything11:16
wolfsprauloh, in China it's all open already11:16
wolfspraulalso all software is free software already11:17
wolfspraulbinaries are preferred over source, more practical (doesn't need the compile step)11:17
wpwrak(everything "free") rms' dream come true :)11:17
wpwrakhe wouldn't like the binaries, though11:17
zearexcept free speech ;)11:18
wolfspraulbut anyway, yes, seriously, the distributors also play an important role here, they can give quite a bit of guidance as to common/uncommon components, and also 'reference' implementations11:18
wolfspraulbut that's not such a big concern for me on the KiCad side11:18
wolfspraulI'm more worried about FAEs11:19
wpwrakcommon/uncommon is the one i tend to worry most about. luckily, price is often a good indicator. if it's common, it's usually cheap. if it's expensive, it won't become common. nice self-reinforcing feedback :)11:19
wolfspraulI call it a day, cu tomorrow11:19
wpwrakif you interact with the faes directly, if all else fails, you can just show them on your laptop :)11:20
wolfspraulprice is not a good indicator, ICs have different marketing strategies too11:20
wolfspraulthat's because many IC companies also act as a sort of 'peacemaker' among their customers11:20
wpwrak(price) not even for the same functionality ? (as in "almost the same")11:21
wolfspraulsome ICs are sold in a tightly controlled way, others are just dumped openly to anyone who pays11:21
wpwrakokay, the former aren't so good to have anyway11:21
wolfspraulonly with very high volume ICs, say those in phones, you are really sure they cannot control distribution anymore, it's just overwhelming11:22
wpwraklikely come with non-public documentation and all that11:22
wolfsprauli'll read up tomorrow... n811:23
wpwrakcya !11:23
bartbesis there a way to dualboot on the nn yet?11:47
bartbesbecause if I can I might try jlime, but if I can't.. openwrt is still my primary dev target11:50
xdpiratebartbes, you can install jlime to your SD-card12:04
xdpiratebartbes, then boot from the SD-card by holding M while powering up the NN12:05
bartbesI briefly saw something about partitioning it, that seems a bit over-the-top though12:05
xdpirateYeah, you need a swap partition12:05
bartbesotherwise it sounds great12:05
xdpiratethough you might be able to have the swap as a file on the main partition12:05
xdpiratei think that requires a kernel recompile though12:05
xdpirateask in #jlime12:05
xdpiratemaybe rafa will be a nice guy and hook you up :P12:06
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Renamed fw/boot/ to fw/atspi-boot/. Fixed build problem in fw/atspi-boot/. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d6b045c12:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved fw/ and tools/ into atrf/ as well. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/c2dd23812:39
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Registers and register values are now CPU-specific. http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/1c7150c13:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: - fw/common/regs-f320.h: include mcs51/C8051F320.h, not mcs51/C8051F326.h http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/0f1c0ea13:32
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Basic framework for CNTR firmware. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5109e0b13:34
rafabartbes: hey you can use the jlime without swap. The swap is needed to install more stuff. But if you want to use the current applications there you can try without swap.13:37
bartbesswap as permanent storage?13:37
bartbes"The swap is needed to install more stuff."13:38
bartbesanyway, that sounds better13:38
bartbesdoes it still need to be ext2 though?13:38
rafabartbes: you can set swap just when you need to install more stuff. But like the release mail says.. we need to fix that, because still with swap opkg takes years until it install something. You can enable/disable swap, it is not needed to be permanent.13:39
bartbesopkg needs the swap13:39
rafabartbes: if you want to try a swap file on sd try with (for example and just an example): cp /boot/uImage /swapfile; mkswap /swapfile ; swapon /swapfile13:40
rafaif that works, whatever FS you have on sd, then you can do a bigger swapfile13:40
bartbesand i don't need a modified image either?13:41
rafamodified image?.. for what? .. no .. you are enabling swap manually, or I am not following you13:42
bartbesto boot from13:42
bartbesbut I guess that's a no13:42
rafano.. you just use or ubi or tar.gz for nand13:42
rafathe ones on jlime.com13:42
bartbesfor nand?13:42
rafabartbes: you need to install jlime. You can install jlime on nand or on sd13:43
bartbesyes, but I want it on sd13:43
rafabartbes: have you already installed?13:43
bartbesthe goal of this all is *not* removing openwrt13:44
rafabartbes: there are two images: a jlime ubi image to install on nand, and a jlime.tar.gz image to install on sd. You choose13:44
rafabartbes: then you need to use jlime tar.gz to install on microSD13:44
rafajust do the ext2 partition on sd and ungzip untar the tar.gz image inside. And you need do that as root from your pc or it will fail to boot13:45
rafaand you will have jlime on microsd without modify openwrt13:45
bartbesor at least chown13:46
bartbesyeah, that makes sense13:46
rafano chown13:46
bartbesthat doesn't work?13:46
rafaif you ungzip/untar as NO ROOT your user will not be able to create devices files13:47
Action: bartbes gives up on fat32 and formats a small bit of his sd card with ext213:47
rafabartbes: qi uboot just read first ext2 partition IIRC. So if your microSD is 1) vfat 2) ext2 perhaps uboot will not find the system13:50
bartbesI'll try13:50
bartbeswindows does the same thing I believe13:50
bartbesand I guess most devices do13:50
rafayou need 1) ext2 2) fat I guess13:50
bartbesyeah, but windows only reads the first partition13:50
bartbesmost devices do13:50
rafahaha.. but uboot could read other partitions.. just that it needs some work perhaps in the source code.13:51
bartbesrafa: it indeed needs the first partition to be ext214:03
rafabartbes: you can get a 256MB microsd for $10 or less I guess14:04
bartbesyou can't get those here14:04
bartbesit's hard to find a 2gb one here14:05
bartbesso I got a 4gb one14:05
rafaor install on nand14:05
bartbesyeah, but I *need* openwrt14:05
rafato survive?14:05
bartbesI was hoping I could 'try' jlime14:05
bartbesit's my dev target14:05
bartbesah well, it was worth a try14:11
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: working boot loader http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/aef833117:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added timer register values. http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/d1b396618:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Completed the basic counter firmware. Now it just has to work ... http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5514c3318:56
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Minor comment cleanup. http://qi-hw.com/p/f32xbase/d254ca820:28
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atspi-trim: utility to set the crystal trimming capacitors. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b77005120:49
wpwrakwolfspraul: so i still have to "sell" idbg to you ;-)21:15
wolfspraulalready did21:15
wpwrakhave you used it ?21:16
wpwrak(sell) i mean for Ben II/Ya/... . doesn't make the "likely features" lists yet :)21:17
wolfspraulneed to see how expensive it really is later, and what the value is.21:18
wolfspraulI cannot tell now, the whole 'Ya package' is not clear to me.21:18
wolfspraulbut it's very good taht we have it, and we should think about whether we can make some as 'Ben hacker giveaway' or something like that.21:19
wpwrakc8051f326 plus a usb connector (micro or mini, whatever you prefer)21:19
wolfspraulthat's the first thing I think about21:19
wpwrakyes, it's not very easy to install, but sufficiently doable that many people who currently solder other kinds of serial consoles might do it21:20
rohwpwrak how much are these c8051f326? (in Eur)21:21
wpwrak(not very easy) unless you're use to do this sort of stuff. then it's nothing special.21:21
wpwrakroh: hmm, where's a distributor with prices in EUR ? :)21:21
rohbtw.. my avr-soft-usb is working21:22
wpwrakroh: digi-key want USD 2.851 a piece if you buy 1000 units21:22
wpwrakroh: how good is it doing usb to serial conversion at 57600 bps ?21:23
rohdunno. will need to test21:24
rohbut i got a free uart, so i can use it for that21:24
wolfspraulroh: did you know that there is an entire AVR soft-ic in Milkymist now, to implement the USB OHCI protocol?21:25
wolfspraulcalled Navre21:25
rohwell.. its a really nice to 'frickel' platform21:26
rohgives fast result21:26
rohmakes people enthusiastic and do more21:26
wpwraksilab's direct orders list USD 2.81 for 1000 units21:28
wolfspraulroh: what is the frickel platform?21:29
wolfspraulyou mean Milkymist?21:29
wpwrakroh: avr is nice. and the peripherals are bit less quirky than those of many competitors21:29
rohit seems to be tested and working with 38400bps with a 12mhz crystal21:29
wpwrakroh: needing a crystal isn't nice21:29
rohwolfspraul do you know the german term 'frickeln'? - to tinker ;)21:30
rohwpwrak high baud always need crystals or arent really stable/exact21:30
wpwrakroh: not if you can sync your clock from USB ;-)21:30
rohhad bad experiences in generic with rc and or even slightly (3%) detuned bauds21:30
rohwell.. thats a feat. true. doesnt make me like 8051 ;)21:31
wolfspraulyes sure I know21:31
wolfspraulbut what is the frickel platform?21:31
wolfspraulavr? milkymist?21:31
rohwpwrak avr in generic. arduino or not21:31
wpwrakroh: at the end of the day, it's all C ;-)21:31
wolfspraulmost people use 'frickel platform' as a negative term, but I just thought one could just market it like that :-)21:31
Action: wpwrak redirects roh's last message to wolfgang :)21:32
rohwpwrak yes. but peripherals are quirky.. always ;)21:32
rohwpwrak i think thats the biggest gainer arduino does. abstracting the peripherals. make you not need to worry about them. call stuff.21:33
wpwrakroh: agreed. the 8051 peripherals suck more than avr's. currently wresting with the c8051f320, a bigger brother of the c8051f326. still have to at least get it to light a LED ...21:33
wpwrakwell, you could have a cover-up library on any architecture. i like it that the silabs usb mcus don't need a crystal. makes it so much easier to use them.21:34
wolfspraulwpwrak: you were right. In the last Milkymist One RC1 run, neither the PCB nor SMT factory requested the complete Altium files, or would have provided any valuable feedback based on those files.21:35
wpwrakwolfspraul: good. i would have found that a little scary :)21:36
wolfspraulit was all based on standard files being traded, gerber, ai, bom, parts etc.21:36
wpwrakwolfspraul: FAEs and the like, there it makes sense. but factories, not really.21:37
wolfspraulI will still be careful that our free tools don't unnecessarily exclude us from standard industry practices. But no worries, no fear tax etc...21:37
wpwrakheh ;-)21:37
wolfspraulwe did work with a layout outsourcing house last time, and that would have been impossible outright with KiCad21:38
wolfspraulbut that's another story, that part of the work we want to get under control ourselves anyway21:38
wpwrakyup. having to rely on outsourcing for this isn't good.21:41
wpwrakwould the SIE be a suitable platform for that Uwe Dippler ? he's looking for something to tinker with21:47
wpwrakor is it too FPGA-centric ?21:47
wolfspraulI doubt it.21:52
wolfspraulit's a long story, he works at a university in malaysia and everything there takes ages.21:52
wolfspraulat that speed I can start thinking about retirement today.21:53
wolfspraulbut we see, maybe we find something for them later, I am happy he starts tinkering with the NanoNote a bit today...21:53
rohhm.. will milkymist be at the congress?21:57
wpwrakah, saturn V style project then :)21:57
kristianpaulsaturn V?22:07
kristianpaulbtw how can help with some mercurial commands?22:08
wpwrakbig old rocket. lots of money went into the project. and it took some time.22:08
kristianpauldid i go somewhere?22:09
wpwrakwell, to the moon :)22:09
kristianpaulseem i'm not that old :p22:10
kristianpaulis Bas Wijnen  here?22:23
mthhe usually uses the nick "shevek", but he's not often on IRC22:25
mthunless he has another nick that I'm not aware of22:25
kristianpaulokay i'll keep my eyes open22:26
kristianpaul!seen shevek22:26
kristianpaulqi-bot: seen22:27
kristianpaulqi-bot: help?22:27
kristianpaulqi-bot: ?22:27
kristianpaulanyw ay.22:27
wpwrakwolfgang: btw, my "dsv" system, along with the BOOKSHELF file, is something you may want to "steal" for other projects.22:32
kristianpaul20:54 -!- wolfspraul [~wolfsprau@lucia.q-ag.de] has quit [Quit: leaving]22:33
kristianpaulahn logs :)22:33
wpwrakah, didn't notice, thanks. let's see if he reads the logs :)22:34
Textmodehave any z-machines been ported to NN?22:39
uncloudedTextmode: there's a port of frotz22:40
Textmodeshould work.22:40
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: USB A routing http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/cb3f03d22:52
--- Tue Aug 24 201000:00

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