#qi-hardware IRC log for Sunday, 2010-08-22

wpwrakrafa: (kernel) i think 1-2 mminutes is a good time. no need to exaggerate :)00:01
rafawpwrak: 120 seconds are few for me.. ;)  it is a good time to heat water to drink mate00:06
rafawpwrak: btw... I was playing hexen and heretic... wow!..  these are great for nn.. still if I just played the shareware levels.. No idea where to download levels made by users yet.. But the sound.. man.. it is amazing to play..00:08
rafa(I am building games for the trip :D )00:08
wpwrakyou'll keep the whole plane awake ;-)00:09
rafaI already built around 10 great games.. I do not want to sleep now :)00:09
rafahexec would be great for nanowar.. you feel the metal at that game hehe00:10
rafahexen00:10
wpwraknever played it. should be fun to discover then :)00:43
rafahexen is very similar to doom.. but there are more effects and the player is more like medieval ages00:45
rafaeffects: for example thunders or storms00:46
wpwrakah, nice. so it's outdoors ?00:47
rafain fact I guess that hexen, heretic and doom share a lot of code.. when I built those the building output were similar between them :)00:47
wpwrak:-)00:48
nebajoththey do00:49
nebajothshare code00:49
nebajothI remember hexen00:49
nebajothmmmm00:49
rafanebajoth: do you want to play on nn? :)00:49
nebajothhmm00:50
nebajothI dunno00:50
nebajothmeans installing graphical environment :P00:50
rafanebajoth: no sure.. it uses sdl and sdl works on fb00:51
rafawpwrak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6I8hVaqmA000:51
rafanebajoth: yes :D you do not need graphical environment00:53
rafait works on fb as well ;)00:54
rohhmmm.. fsck.01:03
rohwhat were the needed levels on a usb again? vcc is 5V and io was 3.3?01:03
wpwrakroh: yup01:05
wpwrakrafa: heh, very very doom01:06
Action: roh fights with vusb01:11
wpwrakroh: where ?01:11
rohnah.. i 'just' wanted to make a friend a small develboard01:16
rohso i soldered up http://metalab.at/wiki/Metaboard from crap on my desk01:16
roheverything seems to work, it just doesnt enumerate.. /me puzzled. now i really could use a _real_ scope with some usb debug feats01:17
wpwrakroh: any ~100 MHz scope with deep memory will do. i debugged USB enumeration with mine.01:18
rohdeep memory ;)01:18
wpwrak500 kSa :)01:18
wpwraknot that it's complain if a genie popped out of a bottle and offered me something with a few more MHz and more samples, though :)01:19
wpwraks/it's/I'd/01:21
wolfspraulrafa: what is the launcher app you use in Jlime?01:32
rafawolfspraul: we do not use launcher01:43
rafawolfspraul: jlime use matchbox desktop and matchbox window manager.. Matchbox uses freedesktop.org spec01:44
rafaSo you can add desktop entries under /usr/applications/*.desktop01:46
rafawolfspraul: those would be launchers I guess. Well, you define *.desktop files like in gnome.. or others freedesktop thing and it is showed on desktop.01:47
wolfspraulah OK02:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, one problem of ben-wpan for which I don't have a good idea for a solution yet is how to connect it to a ben. particularly if placing the board next to the display02:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: the signals i can grab at the LCM aren't enough. i need at least three more: reset, chip select, and interrupt. there's one more signal used for sleep mode that may also be good to have. if i take the clock from the ben, saving the crystal, that would be one more signal. so, 3-5 signals to route from the main pcb to the display.02:07
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, one more: i also need MISO. the LCM only has MOSI and SCLK. so that's 4-6 signals.02:08
wolfspraulno problem if we integrate this we have an entirely new layout anyway :-)02:10
wpwrakpity that all the lines of the lcm's fpc are connected. there are many GND and +V3.3 lines. probably half the number would do nicely02:10
wolfspraulis the avt2 I sent you any good?02:10
wpwraki haven't played with it yet02:10
wolfspraulso basically my plan on the small run side looks like this:02:11
wpwraksmall run of what ?02:12
wolfspraulI hope we can continue hacking projects with the existing Ben, AVT2 or SIE boards, until we have a bigger package to go for another NanoNote prototype run02:12
wolfspraulsmall run anything :-02:12
wolfspraul:-)02:12
wolfspraulso of course we could make another avt2, and bring out everything you need, bit a small run is quite expensive, both in case and because we can only do so many small runs per year02:13
wolfspraulgee, typos02:13
wolfspraul"but a small run is quite expensive, both in cash and ..."02:13
wolfspraulso I am waiting either for a usable 4760, or do the milkymist nanonote right away, but it's a bit too early for that...02:14
wolfspraulwhich means ... to find your wires I hope we can get it going on a Ben, or AVT2, or SIE02:14
wpwrakMM NN would be fun. should make the headlines as the craziest project of the year ;-)02:14
wolfspraulwhat do you think?02:14
wolfsprauloh we will definitely do it :-)02:14
wolfspraulin fact we are working on it already, aren't we? :-)02:15
wpwraki can prototype on the ben, no problem. that's the least of my worries :)02:15
wolfspraulok but you said you don't know how to hookup ben-wpan?02:16
wpwrakwhat's harder is to test it in "real life" conditions. because i need to solve the cabling problem for that. well, at least to the point that they only need resoldering once a week or so :)02:16
wpwrakhook it up in a "real life" way02:16
wpwrakjust somehow connecting it to the pcb is easy. putting it in the display such that it stays connected when opening/closing the device several times is difficult.02:17
wpwrakwhat i also don't have is the fancy rf gear for testing spectrum leakage an all that. i think (*) i more or less check if something horrible happens at the first harmonic, but that's about all. (*) still need to get my usrp going.02:19
wolfspraulhmm02:20
wolfspraulintegrating it into the top side is indeed tough, didn't know you want to do that now already02:20
wpwrakrf properties are basically a function of circuit design, circuit implementation (including soldering), antenna design, and - you'll like that one - properties of the device this thing operates in. so there are many things you can only find out by measuring02:21
wpwrak(integration) http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/first-pcb.jpg02:22
wpwrakbasically the y-size of the antenna is what we have. the ground below the antenna can go under the lcm without problems (well, i also hope without rf problems)02:23
wpwraklet me take a picture of the actual circuit ...02:24
wolfsprauloh wooow! that's your own PCB antenna there?02:25
wolfsprauletched in home-made acid?02:25
wpwrakyup :) btw, it has about +3 dB, according to TI's documentation ;-)02:25
wolfspraulyou are getting scary02:25
wolfspraulif Al Qaida has any problems in recruitment, someone should point them to you...02:26
wolfspraulthe new 'base' is in Buenos Aires. Asado Qaida.02:27
nebajothpish posh02:28
nebajothyou should know better than to say the words "al qaida" in an irc channel02:28
nebajothECHELON HIRE ME02:28
wolfspraulok then let me rephrase "Werner's PCB antenna is cool"02:29
wolfspraulself-censored02:29
nebajoth:D02:30
nebajothcan't we do a 4740-based small run with usb host?02:31
wolfspraulthat was avt202:33
wolfspraulavt2 had a 4720 which is the same die as 474002:33
wpwrakhttp://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/board-100813.jpg02:33
nebajothhmmm02:34
nebajothI meant for cons00mers, I guess02:34
nebajothsmall run02:34
nebajothright02:34
nebajothgotcha02:34
nebajothI'm half asleep, watching my daughter :P02:34
wolfspraula small run doesnt' have to be profitable02:35
wpwrakleft chip is the usb mcu. right chip is the transceiver. little stuff right of the transceiver is balun and filter. it should be possible to replace them all with a single chip about the size of two of these small critters (they're 0402)02:35
wolfspraulbut a 'real' run does, and I don't want to increase prices of the NanoNote, I want to decrease prices02:35
wolfspraulso the 'small runs' will dance around for a while, until we find a package that we can successfully mass-produce02:35
wpwrakeverything left of the pads with the colorful little wires would come off then putting the board into the ben02:36
nebajothyes alright02:36
wolfspraulso what's next?02:38
wpwrakone problem is the crystal. there's no room for it in the ben, if putting the board into the display. but i can probably slave the board off a clock from the cpu. the 12 MHz crystal is almost good enough for this. sufficient for experimental use. for a real product, it may have to be replaced with a slightly more accurate one. shouldn't be a big deal.02:38
wpwraknext in my testing is to enable the receiver and see if the analog regulator comes up too.02:39
wolfspraulwe could make a special PCB behind the LCM, then use the current FPC that goes through the hinge to route the wires to the main PCB. but we would then probably also need changes there, so I doubt it will help much.02:39
wpwrakafter that, the fun part starts: the RF side. my plan is to first implement a spectrum scan, do the same on the usrp, and compare the two.02:40
wpwrakparticularly when generating background noise form my wlan, they both should see the same pattern02:40
wpwraks/form/from/02:40
wpwrakthe lcm's pcb has very large ground areas. i can just cut out these02:41
wpwrak(well, some of them. don't need all that much space)02:41
wpwrakthe fpc would need a change on both sides, yes02:42
wpwrakmaybe i can cut the traces leading to the fpc connectors. haven't examined that yet.02:43
wpwrakhere's the pcb's backside. basically just ground planes. http://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/board-100813-back.jpg02:49
wpwrakthe transceiver's reset behaviour is interesting. i was trying to read the chip's IDs. the data sheet says no explicit reset is needed. plus, spi is self-synchronizing (with nSS) and reading the ids is about the simplest thing one can do anyway. so i expected this to work.02:52
wpwrakinstead, i just got random garbage. pretty much all of friday went into trying to find the mysterious bug in my spi implementation. the general shape of the signals was okay. all the bits made sense. signal timing as well, signal shape too. and so on.02:53
wpwrakin the end, it turned out that i do have to reset the chip before it would return anything sensible. argl.02:54
wolfsprauloh well02:56
wpwrakof course this means that having a line for the reset signal is mandatory02:58
wpwrakthe one signal that's kind of optional controls transmit timing and sleep mode. we probably don't care about the former, but the latter is interesting: the chip goes from 1.5 mA to 20 nA in sleep mode.02:59
wolfspraulyou think the aread around the lcm (on the top side) is the right place to attempt RF, right?03:02
wolfspraulthere are orcad files of the behind-lcm pcb flying around somewhere, as a first step I could try to turn this into proper kicad files.03:03
wolfspraulone problem with converting GND lines in the FPC is that they are probably there for a reason, to reduce noise or whatever03:04
wpwraki think the lcm area is promising, yes. it would be far from parts with complex radiation patterns, next to a big chunk of ground, and it's likely to be uncovered by hands and such03:05
wpwraksome of the ground lines may be there for noise. but most seem to be there just for current. i don't think we need quite so many. even one of each (gnd and +V3.3) is probably enough. two of each should be plenty.03:06
wpwrakthen there are two more ground lines that may be there for noise. and i'm adding another even noisier line, the 16 MHz clock. i think the lcm clock is much slower than this. maybe 8-10 MHz03:07
wpwrakactually, i could measure it ... let's see ...03:07
rafawolfspraul: BTW, beta3 is almost there ;)03:17
wpwrakah no, it's 21 MHz03:19
wolfspraulgreat!03:19
wpwrakso the clock i may add will be a little less offensive than the one that's already there ;-)03:20
wpwrakin any case, i know that adam likes this kind of signals. we already had great fun with that sort of thing with the gta03 camera clock :)03:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: how is the EE design of the bens done ? is it split between carlos and adam ?03:26
wolfspraulbasically yes, although keep in mind be bought the design so we started with a lot of 'known good' data03:27
wolfsprauls/be/we/03:28
wolfspraulbut then avt2, sie - yes, Carlos & Adam03:28
wpwrakokay, good. does carlos have resources to analyze RF characteristics ? such as the sort you need for FCC compliance03:29
nebajothis it mipsel or mipsn32?03:29
wpwraknebajoth: openwrt toolchain calls it mipsel-*03:30
nebajothyeah03:30
nebajothbut the kernel config for 2.6.36 seems to think its mipsn3203:30
wpwrakwhere is a -march=xburst when you need it to end all doubts ;)03:31
wolfspraulwpwrak: I doubt it. Although it's a university someone else might have it.03:31
wpwrakwolfspraul: that's what i was hoping for :) okay, something to find out03:32
wpwrakrafa: we should find out if there are any people at universities in buenos aires who could be interested in such things as well03:34
wpwraknice. i get non-constant rssi values. this is promising :)04:01
wpwrakhttp://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/rssi.png04:17
nebajothwhat does it mean04:18
wpwrakx is the frequency, in MHz. y are the seconds since the start, z is the received energy in dBm. at t=~6s i started a lot of traffic on my wlan, at channel 10 (2457 MHz)04:18
wpwrakin other words, i get something out of the ether04:19
nebajoth:D04:25
wpwrakupdated the image04:27
nebajothnice04:27
nebajothlabels04:27
nebajothI kind of want this kind of display live-updated on my wall04:28
nebajothor wristwatch04:28
wpwrakshouldn't be too hard. Gtk is your friend :)04:29
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atspi-rssi/: spectrum scan utility http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/723cfad05:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: atspi-reset: utility to reset transceiver or entire board. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/419b59605:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added Makefile to build/install/etc. all the ATSPI utilities. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/e514c0f05:51
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Additions to bookshelf: AT86RF230 programmer's guide and 2.4 GHz regulations. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d8c71a305:51
wpwrakwolfspraul: you'll like the last one :)05:52
wolfspraulregulations! my everyday bedtime reading05:54
wolfspraulfantastic Werner, thanks a lot!05:54
wpwrakbut i can't praise ti's wonderful collection of documentation often enough. they really have everything you need.05:54
wpwrakwolfspraul: i thought it was your bathroom reading, with dual use ;-)05:55
wolfspraulcan't get enough regulatory texts actually05:55
wolfspraulthe grammar, style, vocabulary - an ecstatic pleasure05:55
wpwrakhehe :) well, this one is an overview, so it's pretty decently written. the originals are probably a different story.05:56
wolfspraulwpwrak: I need your help deciphering the extensions of some KiCad files, and what should be committed into the repository, what is intermediate/temporary06:01
wolfspraulit's about the JTAG/serial reflashing cable for Milkymist One, a very simple little PCB06:02
wolfspraulsome files are already committed, but neither me nor Yanjun Luo are really sure whether it's the right set06:02
wolfspraulthe entire zipped folder from Yanjun Luo is here http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/wolfgang/tmp/06:02
wolfspraulthat's a total of 22 files06:03
wolfspraul4 * .lib06:03
wolfspraul1 * .pro06:03
wolfspraulwrong: 2 * .pro06:03
wolfspraul4 * .bak06:03
wpwrakusb_jtag.{pro,sch,brd }06:04
wolfspraul1 * .net06:04
wpwrakthen of the others ...06:04
wolfspraul2 * .00006:04
wolfspraul2 * .brd06:04
wolfspraul1 * .bck06:04
wolfspraul1 * .mdc06:05
wolfspraul1 * .mod06:05
wolfspraulpuh, that's 19 now I think :-)06:05
wpwrak{crystal_smd,ft2232h,mic5207-3}.lib, *.mod, not sure about the .mdc06:05
wolfspraul1806:05
wolfspraul1 * .lst06:06
wolfspraul1 * .ps06:06
wolfspraul1 * .sch06:06
wolfspraulthe .ps is definitely a plotted schematics, that I know06:06
wolfspraul1 * .dcm06:06
wpwrak.lst is the BOM. that can be generated. .net is the netlist. can be generated as well.06:06
wolfspraulok that's it06:06
wolfspraulthe .bak are probably backup copies only06:07
wpwrak.dcm is documentation. but since it's a cache anyway, you don't care aboutit06:07
wolfspraul.lst .net .ps are generated files06:07
wolfspraulok [.dcm]06:07
wolfspraulso .dcm never has original content?06:07
wpwrakit can, but probably not in this case06:08
wolfspraulthe nonamebrd.pro is probably just junk from the first steps06:08
wpwraki'm actually surprised it exists at all06:08
wpwrakyup06:08
wolfspraulok so let's scratch out the ones that are junk for sure:06:08
wpwrakkicad leaves a lot of droppings :)06:08
wolfspraulnonamebrd.pro, 4 * .bak, 1 * .lst, 1 * .net, 1 * .ps06:09
wolfspraulright? that's 806:09
wpwrakthe .dcm is definitely useless. has no content.06:09
wolfspraulleaves 1406:09
wolfspraulok, 1306:09
wpwrakfor the netlist, make sure you have a copy. just in case.06:10
wolfspraulhe well06:10
wolfspraulthat's just what I am trying to find out06:10
wolfspraulalso for the .dcm - if it's empty here that doesn't mean it won't contain original content alter06:10
wolfspraullater06:10
wolfspraulso it's important whether it's committed to git or in the ignore list :-)06:10
wpwraknaw, it's a cache auto-generated by kicad06:10
wolfspraulok06:10
wolfspraulso we are down to 1306:11
wpwrakthe netlist should have no original content, but i'd do a test to verify that06:11
wpwrakyou killed $savepcb.* and *.000 ?06:12
wolfspraulmaybe this is documented in the kicad wiki/documentation somewhere?06:12
wolfspraulI killed?06:12
wolfspraulno06:12
wpwrakthen do it :) 3 less06:12
wolfspraulok, let me move all probably-non-original files into a subfolder06:13
wpwrakthe netlist is generated by eeschema and cvpcb updates the netlist when you assign footprints to components. in this case, it should save them also in a .cmp file, though.06:13
wpwrakfootprints can also be directly in the schematics, so you don't need to run cvpcb06:14
wolfspraulwe are down to 1006:15
wolfspraulthere are two files with name -cache06:15
wpwrakreloading ...06:15
wpwrakkill 'em06:15
wolfspraulusb_jtag-cache.lib, usb_jtag-cache.bck06:15
wolfspraulwow, so some .lib have original content, some not?06:15
wpwraknice, eh ? ;-)06:15
wolfspraulthat's not nice even if you hate extensions06:15
wolfsprauldown to 806:16
wpwrakwhat kicad does is that it copies the libraries it uses into a cache. if you use only stable "standard" libs and supply the non-standard libs with the reset of the project, the cache is redundant.06:17
wpwraknow you have all you should need. lemme check the .pro ...06:17
wolfspraulso the .lib files need to be committed06:17
wolfspraulthere's also jtag-uart.mdc and jtag-uart.mod06:18
wolfspraulboth are original?06:18
wpwrakthe .pro should be edited. has a long absolute path name. i also don't see the .lib files mentioned in there06:19
wpwrakbest to clean out all the junk (LibName30=valves, LibName22=digital-audio, etc.)06:19
wolfspraulok, will fix the absolute path06:19
wpwrakthen add the *.lib files. as  ./crystal_smd   etc.06:20
wolfspraulwell there is a crystal_smd.lib, and if I grep -i crystal_smd, I do find some references to that name here and there06:21
wolfspraulin usb_jtag.brd and usb_jtag.sch06:21
wpwrakyes. it should also be in the profile. not sure if eeschema can even display it if it's not there.06:21
wolfspraulmaybe it just suffixes a '.lib' and tries to open the file :-)06:22
wolfspraulI don't know06:22
wolfspraulso you think what's remaining there now are the files with original content?06:22
wolfspraulthey should go into revision control, the rest can be ignored06:22
wpwrakand i'm not sure why it's not there in the first place. maybe there's yet another strange workflow that lets you pick libs up without adding them to the list :)06:22
wpwrakyes06:22
wolfspraulwhat is in jtag_uart.mdc and jtag_uart.mod06:22
wolfspraulmdc is quite short, mod rather long06:23
wpwrak.mod is a footprint, .mdc is documentation06:23
viricHello all06:23
viricI have a linux question...06:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: ah, for once there is actually something in the documentation ;-)06:23
wolfspraulok but unlike .dcm, the .mdc documentation is original?06:24
viricIf I wanted to do an ubifs image, so it had the /dev/... contents, how could I do that on a linux without being root?06:24
wpwrakwolfspraul: yup06:24
wolfspraulok06:24
wolfspraulso at least in terms of original vs. intermediate/generated, the split is rather clean06:25
wolfspraulwe have all generated files in non-original, and the ones with original data remain, 8 out of 22 here06:25
wolfspraultrue?06:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: yup. it's manageable :)06:25
wolfspraulwpwrak: thanks a lot! very helpful06:25
viricIt's a similar problem with making an initramfs image. The only tool I know is one comming with the linux kernel, that allows putting device ndoes into a cpio archive according to a description, not only through the nodes being in the filesystem.06:25
wolfspraulI will try to write this up into an email to the list, good that we have irclogs...06:25
wpwrakwolfspraul: depending on the kicad version, things change a little. i.e., it sometimes it complains if certain files are missing (but works anyway)06:27
viricdo you talk about the 3d scans?06:27
wpwrakviric: no, about kicad. that's EDA (schematics, layout, etc.)06:28
viricah ok06:28
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok, but I would like to commit only original data06:28
wolfspraulthen it's a bug in KiCad :-)06:28
viricok. schematics, layout, for what? the nanonote?06:29
wolfspraulthey must have heard about the idea of separating original data from intermediates/generated data06:29
wpwrakone more scan shuold end today. quite a bastard been running for something like 3 or 4 days now. not sure why it takes *that* long.06:29
wpwrakviric: ultimately, that one too :) for now it's assorted smaller projects06:29
viricah ok06:29
wolfspraulalthough it seems quite brave to use the same extension for both original and cached data, first time ever I see something like this06:30
wpwrakviric: e.g., a JTAG dongle for Xue, or ben-wpan06:30
viricOn Linux I only used Eagle... it looks quite similar06:30
viricAh, very good.06:30
wolfspraulso maybe they don't care so much about that distinction...06:30
viricis your chosing of 'kicad' the result of exploring what kind of free available software there is for that?06:31
wpwrakhmm. i should make a c8051f326 programmer based on a c8051f326. then i don't need to abuse a freerunner for bootstrapping all my little usb toys :)06:31
wpwrakwolfspraul: the whole library system is ugly. there's talk about improving it, but the powers that be are slowing things down :(06:32
wpwrakviric: yup06:32
viricI'll try this kicad then :)06:34
wpwrakviric: there are basically two: gEDA and kiCad. i used gEDA once but it was quite a pain. e.g., you had to put meta-data into invisible fields in the schematics and define your schematics symbols in an m4-based script. not sure if things are still like that.06:34
wpwrakthen i stumbled upon kicad. never looked back :)06:34
viricgreat06:35
wpwrakthe main problem with kicad is that it doesn't have an autorouter. you can use an external non-Free but gratis push router, though.06:35
viricahh.06:35
viricthere may be people working on that though06:35
wpwrakwell, it does have an autorouter and even an autoplacer, but they're both useless.06:35
viricdon't have the geda people one?06:35
viric:) ok06:35
wpwrakthey have a fairly nice autorouter. not sure if they have a push router these days.06:36
virica 'push router'?06:36
wpwrakpush router = you route manually but the program moves conflicting traces out of the way06:36
wolfspraulviric: same here, definitely really trying hard to work with KiCad now.06:37
wolfspraulI just follow Werner's lead on choosing that tool.06:37
viricwolfspraul: same for Eagle you mean?06:37
wolfspraulEagle is not free softare.06:37
wolfspraulsoftware06:37
viricI know I know06:37
wpwrakso it's the best of both worlds - you don't need to waste time on those small details and you're still in control of how things are routed. (autorouters are essentially impossible for anything but trivial layouts)06:37
wolfspraulviric: sorry then I don't understand you. What is your question about Eagle?06:38
viricI had no question. :)06:38
viricwolfspraul: well, my question was about your statement of "same here". I lost what could you be answering, with "same here". And I asked if that "same here" meant "same we used Eagle here"06:42
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, just how much do you dislike TI ? they have an 802.15.4 chip that's similar to atmel's but has more buffer space. atmel's has only space for one frame, so you have to be very quick to download a received frame or to disable the receiver. otherwise, new packets can overwrite old ones. not sure if this will be a problem, but it might.06:44
wpwrakwolfspraul: so it may make sense to also evaluate TI's chip.06:44
viricis 802.15.4 (wpan?) something like bluetooth?06:49
wpwraksort of, yes. it's for example the basis of ZigBee.06:50
wpwrakapparently, one couldn't write a Free ZigBee stack, though.06:50
viricah06:50
wpwrakbut there are other nice protocols one can layer on top :)06:50
viriclike ip?06:51
wpwrake.g., 6LoWPAN, IPv606:51
viricok06:51
viricare you planning an 'additional small board' to give network to the nanonote?06:51
viricOTH, I thought that through the serial port it could be easy to handle a gprs modem through that, right?06:52
wpwrakno IPv4, though. i think you'd get a public stoning if you were to suggest to start an IPv4 project at IETF these days ;-)06:52
virichehe ok06:52
wpwrakhttp://www.almesberger.net/misc/ben/wpan/06:52
wpwrakthat's the transceiver (a bit too large to fit into the ben but that can probably be fixed) plus an USB interface. the latter for development.06:53
viricwow, it looks great.06:53
viricis that 'low cost'?06:54
wpwrakquite, yes. about USD 2-3 for the whole thing we'd need for the ben. maybe twice that for USB.06:55
viricwow06:55
viricsounds very nice06:55
viricand a wpan transceiver for a PC costs around that?06:55
wpwrakyou can find cheaper RF chips, but then you're either in bands with hostile regulations or they implement some "vendor standard", incompatible with everything else06:56
viricI think anyone who bought a nanonote can afford this wpan thing06:56
wpwrakdunno what commercially available WPAN/ZigBee dongles cost06:56
wpwrakit's not an easy upgrade. it will have to be engineered into a new ben.06:57
bartbes:(06:58
wpwrakadding it to an existing ben may be unreliable and you'd have to cut the PCB in the display and route some new wires to the LCM. not very friendly.06:58
viricit's a pity the Ben did not come with an 'extension port', with exposed pins06:58
wpwrakinstalling an IDBG is a kid's play in comparison :)06:58
viricok, understood :)06:58
wpwraki'm not sure an extension port would help. chances are it's the wrong shape, at the wong place (rf likes to be undisturbed), and maybe even with the wrong signals.06:59
viricall rf could be outside the ben06:59
viricand something connected to that ext port.06:59
wpwrakugly06:59
viric:)06:59
wpwrakand the sooner or later, you'll break it off :)07:00
viricright07:00
viricdo you have the schemas in kicad for that?07:01
wpwraknow, let's see if my hands are steady enough to solder after yesterday's drinking ...07:01
wpwrakof course. http://projects.qi-hardware.com/index.php/p/ben-wpan/07:02
viricyou must be a good soldering, seeing that small (smd?) chips soldered07:02
wpwrakit's not so difficult. i find smd easier than through-hole.07:03
viricsure07:03
wpwrakthe main difficulty on this board is that there isn't a lot of space between components. spacing is still wide for industrial production, but with a soldering iron, it's about as dense as possible.07:04
viricwolfspraul: is it you doing those long-time 3D scans?07:04
viricwpwrak: clear07:04
wpwrakwell, "industrial production" ... a toaster oven is sufficient :) but i like the results of manual soldering better.07:05
viricI never used other than manual soldering07:05
wpwrakfor proper reflow soldering (with an oven), i would need to print stencils for the solder paste too. haven't gotten into that yet.07:06
wpwraki'm doing the 3D scans. well, my little cnc mill that ever sleeps is :)07:07
viricah ok!07:07
viricI should be in charge of doing 3D scans with laser triangulation07:07
viricBut we are very busy at the office these days, and I think I will not get into scanning until the late september07:07
viric(last week of september)07:07
viricwpwrak: I don't think I'll get results as accurate as you (in 0,1x0,1µm scans), but I hope we can get something close to that.07:10
viricat least I should be able to scan faster (30s per scan at that resolution)07:10
wpwrakmy scans are 100 um x 100 um, not 0.1 um. that would be nice, though :)07:11
wpwrak(30s) i envy that speed :)07:11
viricsorry :)07:12
viricI meant 0,1x0,1mm :)07:12
wpwrakwith those endless scan jobs, i'm extremely nervous about brown-outs. they happen here from time to time. and of course, they kill the entire scan. the crappy scan software doesn't to intermediate saves :-(07:12
viricoh.07:12
viricmaybe you can leave your CNC relax...07:13
viricif you can wait for my results07:13
wpwrakwhat accuracy do you expect to get ?07:14
viricIn general we only do algorithms, and we lack good scanning hardware :) Our customers get the expensive hardware and use our algorithms07:16
viricI hope I will be in the 0,1x0,1x0,1µm range.07:16
wpwrak(customers) ah. pity. it's always nice to have good toys :)07:16
wpwrak0.1 um or 0.1 mm ?07:17
viricgrrrr07:17
viric100µm^307:17
viric:)07:17
wpwrak;-)07:17
viricwe could scan at more accuracy07:17
wpwraki get 100 um on X/Y and 25 um on Z.07:17
viricbut I think we will be around that error for the time of integrating multiple views.07:18
wpwraki guess the better the scans, the better the merged views, no ?07:18
viricbut for very flat objects, it is very difficult to get common surfaces between the views.07:19
viricflat objects defeat the usual aligning technology.07:20
viricmmm we have a 360° scanner, not very accurate; maybe I could use this. http://www.aqsense.com/docs/papers/Aqsense_area_Volume_food_processing_application.pdf    this would solve the merging problems. But I don't think we can get that accuracy with the hardware we have.07:21
wpwraka food scanner. nice :)07:23
viricthis could take both top and bottom views of a flat surface at the same time07:23
viricof a flat object I mean :)07:23
wpwrakwell, i'll just keep my scans going. when you get to make yours, we can compare. if the equipment is good enough, then you'll obsolete my scans within a few minutes :)07:24
viricI hope to do so ;)07:24
viricOh, I got kicad built. Time to experiment07:24
wpwrakmy scans don't have common surfaces. (i could do them, but i'm not sure they'd come out great, with items mounted at an angle) so i have to measure the thickness of opposing surfaces.07:25
wpwrak(at 1 um resolution. micrometers still beat scanners ;-)07:26
viricwpwrak: right, that's a big source of error I see with one scan at every position.07:26
viricah, let's see what you get then :)07:27
wolfspraulwpwrak: I have no general problem with TI, that would be pretty irrational and stupid imo.07:27
wolfspraulif they have (bought) chips that perform well, sure let's take a look.07:27
wolfspraulwhich one of the two is cheaper - atmel or ti?07:28
wpwrakwolfspraul: atmel is a bit cheaper. lemme look up the digi-key prices ...07:29
wpwrakatmel: 2.2724@100, 2.09352@1000, 2.15384@5000(reel). i never quite understand why TR has a higher per unit cost than custom quantities plus reeling.07:33
wpwrakti: 4.73@100, 2.59350@3000(reel)07:34
wpwrakti themselves list their chip as 1.95@1k. so there seems to be some room for negotiations ;-)07:35
wpwrakthe atmel is at86rf230. the ti is cc2520.07:37
dmarschalhi!07:40
dmarschalcan someone help me how to run native gcc on my nn?07:41
dmarschali tried it under jlime but the keyboard is acting weird -- i can't type numbers07:42
dmarschali checked all gcc related stuff in the xburst repo. i've found nothing to 'opkg install'07:43
dmarschalany advices?07:43
bartbeshave you run opkg update before install?07:43
dmarschali don't have a working inet connection07:44
dmarschali'm running the 8-15 openwrt userland07:44
bartbeswell, then you either need to build the package, or download it on your computer07:45
bartbesI guess07:45
bartbesI'm no expect, maybe someone else knows a different way07:45
wolfspraulwpwrak: ok got it. seems they are similar, although it's very hard to tell from digikey.07:46
dmarschalbartbes: i hope so. i tried to cross compile gcc and transfer to my NN but it doesn't work. missing deps maybe.07:47
wolfspraulyou should feel free, really. if the TI chip is better it's better.07:47
wolfspraulI'm a pragmatist, both are proprietary ICs in the end...07:47
wolfspraulI have heard many good things about the ti cc series07:48
dmarschalso everyone is cross compiling even simple 'hello.c' applications? i think a 300mhz device is powerful enough to compile \07:53
dmarschaleven graphics applications (not x11)07:53
wpwrakwolfspraul: they're quite similar in terms of general characteristics and the number of external components. ti's has more buffers and an AES engine. haven't looked at the programming model yet.07:53
wpwrakwolfspraul: kewl. adding cc2520 to my digi-key shopping list :)07:54
wolfspraulcomparisons are always good, real comparisons, not spec comparisons :-)07:56
wolfspraulmarketing people are quite good, maybe terrific, when it comes to what to talk about and what not to talk about...07:56
viricdmarschal: most problems compiling come from the memory available, not the cpu speed07:59
dmarschalviric: thank you. i was able to compile sdl codes (even mplayer) on my zipit z2. it's almost the same device.08:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: indeed. gta01 gps, that wlan module by microchip, etc. ;-)08:03
viricdmarschal: maybe with an old gcc? With swap? or how?08:03
dmarschalviric: checking gcc version...08:04
dmarschalviric: gcc version is 4.3.3. i set up 130mb swap space.08:08
dmarschalit compiles sdl examples (from sdl.org) in a few seconds. so I assume the NN is able to do more.08:09
dmarschalsorry, from libsdl.org08:10
viricahh with swap. that's cheating :)08:12
dmarschalbut it worked (-:08:13
dmarschalzipit has thumb cracker keyboard that's why i need my nn to work as it should08:13
viricI could run gcc in the nanonote fine08:13
viriccross-built gcc.08:13
viricwhat did you say about the internet connection?08:14
dmarschali don't have a working connection on my nn08:14
viricwhy not?08:14
dmarschalthe host computer drops connection every 3-5 secs.08:14
dmarschalbecause of power saving08:14
dmarschalit's a fujistu u1010 with ubuntu08:15
viricdrops the usb?08:15
bartbesare you sure it isn't nm-applet?08:15
dmarschali have to check. thanks for the idea. by the way ubuntu on the u1010 is not perfect08:16
dmarschalnightmare starts when i want to set up a connection between those 2 computers.08:19
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: NAND flash routed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/750069409:25
viricIs anyone happy with the recording quality of the microphone?09:33
viricof the nn09:34
viricI've noticed that not all 'arecord' options work fine; does anybody know what should I tell to arecord to get the nicest quality?09:34
kyakviric: for some reason, arecord is not working for me at all09:36
kyakat least, the wav file i get is not played back09:37
viricI could record, but I got 'normal' results only at 8000Hz09:37
viricah, strange. it works for me.09:37
kyakwhat is your command line?09:37
viricarecord a.wav09:38
viricaplay a.wav09:38
viricthat gives unsigned 8 bit, 8000Hz mono09:38
viricI hear some 'crack crack' in the middle of the recording though09:38
viricyou have to set up the capturing with alsamixer maybe. Did you do that?09:39
kyakno, i don't get anything09:39
kyakyes, i tried playing with alsamixer09:39
kyakalsamixer - F4 - Mic set to 100 %09:40
viricdo you have CAPTURE enabled there?09:40
viric(space key)09:40
kyakin "Capture" section of alsamixer there are Line, Mic, Capture09:42
virichm09:42
kyakMic and Capture are set to 100, Line is enabled (with space key)09:42
viricI have 'master, line, mic'09:42
kyakthis is in "F5"09:43
kyaki.e., "All" section09:43
viricmm no. in f5.09:43
kyakoh!09:43
kyaki got it!!09:44
viricin f4 I meant09:44
kyakthough Mic was set to 100 %, it wasn't enabled (space key)09:44
kyakviric: thanks, now it works :)09:44
viricdo you get good sound?09:45
viricbe welcome09:45
kyakno, not very good09:46
kyakthe sound level is low, there are "cracks"09:46
kyakspeaking in a normal voice when sitting at the table where Ben is is recorded almost unhearable09:47
viricI guess it's not easy to configure it09:49
kyakspeaking directly in a mic produces mor or less suitable results09:50
kyakstill a lot of background noise09:50
kyakviric: arecord -f cd a.wav produces better results i think09:52
kyakthe sound is louder09:52
viricreally?09:52
kyakyes..09:52
viricah yes. still cracks though09:53
kyakyeah09:53
viricthe mic volume seems to do little09:54
viricbut the 'master' works fine09:55
kyakif you don't touch Ben during recording (Ben is on a table), there are not cracks09:55
viricreally?09:55
kyaki think these cracks are from Ben internal's somewhere :)09:55
kyakwhen you touch buttons, etc09:56
viricmm I hear cracks though. less, but I hear.09:56
kyaki hear background noise09:56
rafawolfspraul: BTW, any suggestion for the current GUI?09:57
wolfspraulyou mean in Jlime?10:05
rafawolfspraul: yeah.. you asked me about the launcher and I was thinking that you could have some suggestions.. ;)10:06
wolfspraulhe, no. I need to try first.10:08
wolfspraulI was just curious what you are using, because I was thinking about gmenu2x on the OpenWrt side.10:09
rafawolfspraul: ah okey. You should try ;) We like the chance to run several applications at the same time. Also, we can use many of the nice things written for desktops, like applets, xlibs applications, gtc, etc.. And all the current sdl applications I have seen on openwrt would work, because sdl works on X as well.10:15
wpwraknice. 2nd board works, too.10:32
wpwrak(just passed the rssi scan)10:33
kristianpaulrafa: whats the package name of your wikipedia hack in jlime?10:44
rafakristianpaul: no package yet, somebody should do that ;)10:44
viricdo you use any wikipedia offline reader in the nano?10:45
kristianpaulrafa: where is it hosted then?10:48
rafaviric: yes10:48
viricwhat?10:48
rafaviric: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=JP&hl=ja&v=hPIZGN2sDds10:49
rafakristianpaul: let me check.. I think that it is not uploaded.. I just have upload the files on temp when people were interested to test, and also I needed to give them instructions.10:50
rafakristianpaul: so if you want.. then just ask me .. (I need to have more time to do the package it seems :) )10:50
kristianpaulrafa: i just want a try now that finally got 2Gb sd10:52
wolfspraulwpwrak: are you ever sleeping?10:55
rafaviric: what do you think about the idea? (of the wiki demo)10:55
wolfspraulI just wrote up our KiCad extension chat from earlier into a mail, will send it now10:56
rafakristianpaul: okey.. let me a while.. working on beta3 and I need a bit of time to upload the files10:56
kristianpaulrafa: first beta3 i can wait :)10:56
rafawolfspraul: that guy is lazy10:56
kristianpaulalo i need learn package for openwrt and jlime ... so i may have an excuse :)10:57
wolfspraulI noticed there are many more extensions in KiCad - .pho .erc .drl .cmp, .pos, .rpt, .stf, .fpd, .cache (instead of -cache)10:57
viricrafa: let me watch the video first..10:57
kristianpaulyour wiki reader seems too  portable for xburst-openwrt :)10:57
wolfspraulthey must be out to get a record for most extensions or so10:57
viricrafa: ah, it's a dictd server serving the wikipedia?10:57
rafakristianpaul: I did a first shell command to get articles.. so yes... using that you can use it on different GUIS ;)11:01
rafaviric: no.. it is a offline wikireader.. and we did a mydict plugin to use it. NO dictd server11:02
kristianpaulit is me or last xbust-pénwrt have problems with DSL?11:07
kristianpaulSDL*11:08
kristianpaulit said that unable open mouse...11:09
viricrafa: ahh.11:11
viricrafa: I was thinking of a reader with pictures, like that of opensomething... that file format.11:11
viricI can't remember11:11
viricopenzim11:11
kristianpaulopenzim?11:12
virichttp://www.openzim.org/Main_Page11:13
kristianpaulyeah11:13
kristianpaulwhat is good with it?11:13
viricI thought it would show wiki pages as rendered by a browser11:13
viric(not a fixed-width text dump :)11:13
kristianpauldid you find a fast and reliable method to get  a zim file?11:13
viricI never tried that11:14
kristianpauli feel okay if can render stuff in console first as rafa did :)11:14
kristianpaulalso ahve an script tool kit that work arounf wikpedia dump files and not complicated to replicate HTML stuff in the case of openzim11:16
hike85heya guys, here I am again11:17
hike85I managed to compiled the toolchain, what I should do to compile a "normal" library for the NN?11:17
hike85I mean, what should I change in the make/configure file?11:18
virichike85: configure with --host=mipsel-linux --build=yoursystem   (something like this)11:18
viricwell, 'host' should name the prefix for gcc, ld, ...11:18
hike85ok, I'm trying now11:19
hike85good! it worked! now, how do I make the lib available to openwrt if I want to cross-compile a program that needs it?11:24
kristianpaulhike85: hey13:19
kristianpaulgcc for openwrt?13:19
kristianpaulor gcc got cross compiling?13:20
hike85hi kristian, I got it working :) I needed a lib to cross-compile a program13:20
hike85so I cross-compiled the lib first and then I put the library in the right folder in the toolchain13:21
hike85it took all the afternoon, but I'm glad I managed to get it working13:21
kristianpaulgreat :)13:22
kristianpaulare you documenting that in the wiki btw?13:23
hike85ehm... I'd like to, but it's about MP3 playing on the NN13:27
hike85maybe I should write it on a blog, so that I can share the knowledge anyway13:28
hike85BTW, it also took me a while to fix a few problems with the building of Qt while compiling the toolchain13:29
hike85I might document that :)13:29
kristianpaulyeah mp3 is not want we want in the wiki..13:32
nebajothhike85: nanohacks.org pls13:33
nebajothits low-traffic currently, but its where stuff like mp3 is supposed to go13:33
hike85ok, I'll post as soon as I can :)13:34
hike85BTW, is there a way to make the SD card on the NN appear as USB stick when connected to a PC?13:35
kristianpaulhmm13:37
kristianpaulthat will be great !13:37
kristianpaulnot i'm aware off13:37
hike85I'm asking because it works with Qtmoko on the FreeRunner13:37
hike85I might look at the code and see if is feasible13:38
hike85to port13:38
kristianpaulgood !13:38
kristianpaulthat wil be asome indeed13:38
nebajother yes13:39
nebajothwith a sdcard adapter13:39
nebajothwait13:39
nebajothmaybe I don't understand the question13:39
kristianpauli think13:40
nebajothyou want the ben to be like a bootable usb drive?13:40
hike85not a bootable usb drive... I'd like to be able to see the Sd card on the nano as if it was a usb drive13:40
kristianpauli think like a other usb storage device13:41
nebajothfrom the pc the nano is connected to13:41
nebajoth?13:41
nebajothwhy is there no search for the mailing list archives -_-13:41
hike85yes, from the PC13:43
hike85I gotta go now, I'll be back in half an hour. If you find anything just give a shout :)13:45
wpwraknebajoth: google ?13:54
hike85mh... sftp should work as well, but if I try to connect, after I insert the password nothing happens14:22
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: debug+prog connector added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/980b85314:36
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: booting from nand works http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/04ed74316:04
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Routing DDR-1 http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/cb4795216:40
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: cleanup http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/f168be616:42
hike85http://www.nanohacks.org/groups/nanohackers//forum/topic/mp3-on-the-ben/, enjoy!16:45
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Routing DDR-1 http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a02ea1318:25
qi-bot[commit] neil: There is now a port of Nightsky - a very basic rendering of the stars in the sky http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/0ba991d19:26
qi-bot[commit] Neil Stockbridge: Merge branch 'master' of git@projects.qi-hardware.com:openwrt-packages http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/df0635c19:26
uncloudedhey, if anyone's interested in an app to show the stars on the NanoNote, could you please test that new port?19:28
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: MLF16 added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ce931a019:34
rjeffriesgood afternoon from Calif USA20:05
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: USB phy component has been changed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/fca992620:07
rjeffrieswolfgang: the qi-hardware main page does not have a pointer to irc fwiw20:11
kristianpaulrjeffries: sure?20:19
kristianpaullook at Join20:19
kristianpaul  #qi-hardware on freenode IRC - live chat for immediate20:19
rjeffriesI did not find it20:19
kristianpaulor you meant other thing?20:19
rjeffrieswill look again20:19
rjeffriesso I was looking for it and missed it let me recheck20:19
kristianpaulis the like-yellow square at the left botton20:19
rjeffriesI stand corrected I did not scroll down that far. was looking in upper left corner20:21
rjeffrieswouldn't hurt to also have a link (to irc info) right after Community Portal20:22
kristianpaulwolfspraul: ^20:23
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Moved hardware design files from top-level directory to atrf/ http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/2c29b5b20:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: New circuit: an arbitrary-precision counter. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/5553d3e20:45
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Forgot cntr/Makefile. Added ground fill. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/51de2a520:45
kristianpauli love this work http://news.jeelabs.org/2010/08/21/another-lipo-option/20:47
kristianpaulwolfspraul: http://pisg.sourceforge.net/21:22
kristianpauljust you interested in irc statics21:22
kristianpauland fun :)21:22
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: second usb-host added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/c3a237321:31
wolfspraulkristianpaul: can you do me a favor and go to http://en.qi-hardware.com/planet/21:50
wolfspraulwatch how long it takes until the page is completely loaded21:50
wolfspraulI am trying to debug some slowness on that page but strangely are not able to track it down somehow...21:50
kristianpaulwolfspraul: 5 secnds21:50
kristianpaul8 seconds with epiphany21:52
wolfspraulhmm. ok that's about right.21:52
kristianpaulthe other measure was in iceweasel21:52
wolfspraulmaybe some strangeness on my client's end21:52
kristianpaulmy home link is 1Mb/s21:52
wolfspraulit's grabbing lots of stuff from all over the net (naturally being a planet), but my Firefox keeps hanging supposedly at some elements coming from qi-hardware.com, which I don't understand21:52
wolfspraulor maybe it's just misinformation21:52
kristianpaulhmm21:53
kristianpauliceweasel dint said nothign about21:53
wolfspraulok thanks for testing, I'll leave it as is right now21:54
kristianpaulsure is great as i can see21:55
CTCP PING: 1282530177 557731 from kristianpaul (kristianpaul!kristianp@190.7.138.180) to #qi-hardware22:23
wpwrakwolfspraul: can i have another usb id ? :) cb72, for CNTR. no good mapping in "leet" for the N, but the B is conveniently close. it's for a little frequency-counting instrument i'm making for ben-wpan.23:50
wolfspraulsure sure23:50
wolfspraulI just sent you a mail regarding kicad success, process, etc.23:51
wolfspraulor rather to the list23:51
wolfspraulwe are definitely making good process on the kicad front, but the process is not well documented, polished, or proven yet23:51
wolfspraulI pasted some links too to illustrate some points, you will see...23:52
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: cntr/cntr.brd: remove the ground fill. The board got a bit messy with it. http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/9c2deb823:53
wpwrak(usb id) thanks !23:59
--- Mon Aug 23 201000:00

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