#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-08-16

uncloudedlunavorax: are you set on using C to program with?  There are scripting languages such as Python, Ruby and Lua that are easier to actually program on the NanoNote itself00:48
bartbesxiangfu: so, how's your connection? :P05:03
xiangfubartbes: it's my awesome windows manager problem. :(.05:04
xiangfubartbes: this one: http://awesome.naquadah.org/05:05
wolfspraulthey call it awesome so even if people complain it still sounds good05:06
wolfspraul"my awesome window manager is crashing"05:06
bartbesyeah, I think I saw it before05:07
bartbesbtw, I can now inform you I found a fix for the lua bug I had05:07
bartbesit was all related to not being able to compile c++ with c9905:08
bartbesso I simply faked that part ;)05:08
wolfspraulhe, OK05:08
bartbes(to disable the check)05:08
bartbes(and who knows, maybe the compiler actually picks up on that)05:08
bartbeswell, this means I have no excuse but continue work on the new graphics backend05:09
bartbesthat sentence isn't correct, but you know what I mean (right?)05:09
bartbesxiangfu: I'm checking out this screenshot http://awesome.naquadah.org/images/6mon.medium.png05:09
bartbesand now I'm wondering why the guy has 9 (!) irssi windows05:10
bartbesactually I forgot one05:11
bartbesthere are 1005:11
zedstarall those monitors and no porn that is impressive05:11
bartbes"Very stable [...]"05:11
bartbeszedstar: check out the previous photo on the center-left screen in the bottom-right corner05:12
zedstarbartbes which photo?05:14
bartbesthe one I linked05:14
bartbesit has the previous photo at the place I just described05:14
tuxbrain2bartbes: the guy on the photo I think has seen too many times "Operation Swordfish" :P05:20
bartbesI want a setup like that ;)05:20
bartbesI need it too05:20
bartbesmy 4 virtual desktops are too little05:20
bartbesand need too much switching05:20
Action: tuxbrain2 thinks bartbes also has seen this movie to many times...05:21
bartbesugh, I now remember why I hate doxygen05:21
bartbesI have never seen it actually05:21
bartbesI had never even heard of it before05:21
tuxbrain2hehehe then the symptoms are caused for too many hours in front of your computer :P05:22
bartbesno but seriously, especially when developing for the ben I have lots and lots of windows open05:24
tuxbrain2Imperative need of more monitors than a NASA mision,05:24
tuxbrain2don't see "Operation Swordfish" movie , even knowing an impresive Hally Berry appears in there ...05:24
tuxbrain2btw, just envy of such configuration05:25
bartbesdo any of you guys know SDL_gfx?05:29
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: Add build variants support to InstallDev http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ef19f3c05:56
qi-bot[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: [package] ncurses: Add libncursesw package http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/4866c7305:56
bartbeso look at that05:57
Action: bartbes cheers05:57
bartbesthx larsc05:57
tuxbrain2that means we have ncurses on OpenWrt??05:57
bartbesncurses we always had05:58
bartbesncursesw is new05:58
tuxbrain2what is ncoursesw?05:58
bartbesthe unicode version05:58
tuxbrain2ok :)05:58
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update copyright to 3.9.1 format http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/c08a8d006:03
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the changelog time stamp http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/0aebda306:03
bartbesthen I shall soon mark wordgrinder unbroken06:04
bartbeswhenever I have the time to build it06:04
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: remove the comments http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/a851a3706:12
mstevensI should reflash my nanonote and see if there's new hotness06:53
bartbes_vps went down :'(07:20
pwpHello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that quemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?10:05
pwpqemu, rather*10:07
pwpIs anyone on here?10:08
pwpHello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard that qemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?10:09
xiangfupwp: Hi. I am not sure about qemu-mips.10:10
xiangfupwp: what software you want port ?? :)10:10
pwpUm... not sure, just some Free Software games.10:11
pwpNot sure of anything specific.10:11
bartbesI tried qemu-mipsel a few times10:11
bartbesbut in the end it always missed a file10:11
xiangfupwp: ok.10:11
bartbesthe bios the last time I tried10:11
xiangfubartbes: I think we should create a wiki page about qemu-*10:12
pwpWhat do you bartbes? It didn't read a file on the image that was there?10:12
bartbesno it missed some bios image10:13
pwpInteresting... was it the qemu bios or the Ben Nanonote? (Sorry, the only emulator I am really familiar with is bochs.)10:15
pwpI used it for it debugging features10:15
bartbesqemu couldn't find a bios10:16
mthpwp: I started on adding support for the Dingoo A320/A330 to qemu here: http://github.com/mthuurne/qemu-dingoo10:17
mththose devices are similar to the NanoNote in hardware10:17
mthso if you'd like to extend qemu to emulate the NanoNote this would be a good starting point10:18
mthbut it's not ready to use in its current state10:18
pwpSorry, I was afk. brb10:23
mthactually, maybe it is ready to use, but I don't have a full NAND image yet to test with10:29
mthit needs a NAND image including the oob areas10:29
mththere is a tool to generate the NAND image here: http://code.google.com/p/jz-hacking/wiki/qemujz10:31
mthI don't know if it uses the same oob format as the NanoNote does10:31
bartbesbtw, is libfreetype available for the nn?10:36
pwpI am not sure, I just found out about the NanoNote yesterday evening and I need something to do until school starts.10:37
bartbesaww.. I can't use my font module yet..10:39
mthyou could try building qemu and making an image file for the NanoNote and see how far it boots10:42
mthyajin made the Pavo board (JZ development board from Ingenic) emulation and that part works10:43
bartbesnote that qemu and qemu-mipsel are very different10:44
mthin what way?10:44
mthI added the SD emulation which it not fully working yet, but SD is not required to use the NanoNote10:44
bartbesqemu-mipsel doesn't boot a system10:45
bartbesbut rather emulates a single program10:45
bartbesin a wine-like fashion10:45
mthno, I think we're talking about something different then10:45
bartbesI am absolutely sure qemu-mipsel does that10:47
bartbes"The qemu-user emulator can run binaries for other architectures but with the same operating system as the current one.10:47
mthyes, but this is not qemu-user10:47
bartbesno, but that *is* qemu-mipsel10:47
mththe executable is qemu-system-mipsel10:47
bartbesright, but that is different10:48
bartbesthis conversation started with qemu-mips10:48
bartbesnot qemu-system-mips10:48
mthwhat you're talking about is what Uli worked on to run Dingoo executables on x86 Linux10:48
bartbes < pwp> Hello, I am a programmer and I was wondering about possibly10:48
bartbes             porting some software to the Ben Nanonote. Unfortunately, I do not10:48
bartbes             currently own such a device (I am saving for a trip that will be10:48
bartbes             quite expensive and I can't justify $100 right now) but have heard10:48
bartbes<pwp> [...] that qemu-mips could possibly emulate the hardeware. Is this true?10:49
mthah ok, then I'm talking about something different10:49
bartbessorry for that paste10:49
bartbesI thought it'd be one line10:49
bartbesbut please do continue discussing qemu-system-mipsel10:49
bartbesthat'd be waay cooler10:50
mthbartbes: I don't have the time right now to play with qemu, but I was hoping someone else does11:31
bartbesI have a bunch of other stuff to do11:32
bartbesso I can't do it either11:32
bartbesand qemu seems to be particularly time-consuming11:32
mthmaybe pwp if he returns?11:32
mthactually qemu was a lot easier to understand than I had thought11:32
bartbes--> Dinner11:33
mthI do have some experience with emulators though; I've been working on openMSX for years11:33
mthbut I expected qemu to be much more complex because it emulates so many systems11:33
mthbut they kept it simple despite that11:33
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: General issues corrected http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/9202afd12:57
bartbesalmost forgot something12:58
bartbeshow do I update packages/?13:01
bartbesgit pull did something ;)13:02
larscscripts/feeds update13:05
bartbesno didn't work13:06
bartbesgit pull did update it though13:06
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: attiny.lib added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/263badf14:54
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: MLF20m1 footprint added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/43db22414:54
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: Merge branch 'master' of projects.qi-hardware.com:xue http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/91cfffd14:54
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Series resistors (DDR) added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/160262417:33
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Library path fixed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/6c2e36017:50
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: terminal resistors placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ba734f720:07
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: terminal resistors placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/f1c650620:37
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: ddr termination placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/2df63e421:56
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [guile] add development files http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/7e2599122:00
kristianpaulwpwrak: do you have the rfm12b modules?22:08
kristianpauli just found this "Ccheap"  interesting protocol https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/PSK3122:08
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: PSU sheet added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a1ba8c922:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: yup, i have some22:10
wpwrakkristianpaul: not very useful, though, imho22:11
kristianpaulyes i know22:11
kristianpaulbut i got 1022:11
kristianpauli need put something to some day...22:11
wpwrakkristianpaul: i'm sure they make nice paperweights :)22:11
kristianpauli have the avr16 chips i'll try some basic stuff22:12
kristianpaulif i got chatting i will be happy :)22:12
wpwraki'm trying to do the same with ieee 802.15.422:12
kristianpaulbut thats for more than simple chatting i think22:13
wpwrakproject ben-wpan. already designed a prototype circuit. now, once the darn flu goes away, i can actually build it22:13
kristianpaulaudio for examples22:13
kristianpaulgreat !22:13
wpwraknaw, it just sends packets :)22:13
wpwrakyou put whatever you want inside22:14
wpwrakeven IPv6 is a possibility22:14
kristianpauli just buyed this Rf stuff for fun also was cheap (initially)22:14
kristianpaulthats powerfull !22:14
kristianpaulthats why i just want chat/ircing with this things22:14
kristianpaulno more22:14
kristianpaulirc (not tcp/ip way)22:15
wpwrakthe problem with 433 MHz is that regluations are pretty mean on it. e.g., you can't output a decent amount of power for continuous transmission22:15
wpwrakirc would already be too continuous22:15
kristianpaulwhat they limit=22:15
wpwrakto be compliant, e.g., with FCC, you can only send a few messages within an hour22:15
kristianpaulpower ?22:15
kristianpaulohh i dint knew that part22:16
wpwrakyou can choose :) eiher good power but very very low duty cycle. or unusably low power but no duty cycle restriction22:16
wpwrakti have some compliance document ... lemme see if i can find it again ...22:16
kristianpaulhow many bits per hour?22:16
kristianpauli tought limitation was just power22:17
wpwrakon 433 mhz it's both. or rather either or. but the unrestricted power is basically below the noise floor.22:18
kristianpaulhmm :(22:18
wolfspraulkristianpaul: wpwrak has a very German approach to regulation :-)22:20
wpwrakwolfspraul: he just doesn't like to give customs an excuse for causing trouble :)22:20
kristianpaulwolfspraul: how is that, o dont understand the point?22:21
kristianpaulshould i read about germany first?22:21
wolfspraulkristianpaul: I was just kidding.22:21
wolfspraulyes, maybe :-)22:21
wpwrakkristianpaul: wolfgang suggests the south american approach to regulations :)22:21
wolfsprauland Chinese22:21
wolfsprauland Arab22:21
wolfsprauland ...22:21
wolfspraulno Werner has good points22:22
kristianpauloh i see the point now ;)22:22
wpwrakit's kinda the same as with patents. you can get away with a number of things, but you shouldn't rely on being able to do so forever. particularly if you're commercially successful :)22:23
wolfspraulyes, but maybe that's a universal truth. the more money you have, the more people are attracted to it.22:23
wpwraktrue, yes. you just don't have to make it too easy for them :)22:24
wolfspraulthese guys that just successfully squeezed 200 million USD out of Microsoft are now going after the next batch of companies with their trivial crap patents (I didn't read them and I won't, but I'd say a fair guess :-))22:24
wolfspraulkristianpaul: it seems there is a trend in some countries to move higher bandwidth applications, especially anything voice and network related, out of 43322:25
wolfsprauland instead 'free it up' for sensors, 'technical applications'22:25
wolfspraulcheck dash7.org22:25
wpwrakyeah. now they're fed and strong. i kinda puzzled why this kind of people doesn't simply have some accident.22:26
wolfspraulbecause the ones they are fleecing are even fatter and stronger :-)22:26
wpwrakstill, can't you remove someone without a trace back to you for that kind of money ? particularly now that they're going after lots of companies.22:27
wolfspraulbut I think it's also safe to say that 433 will remain as an unlicensed spectrum, more important that cheap super high-volume ICs will continue to be designed and manufactured for it22:27
wolfspraulwpwrak: but if the ones they are going after have even more to loose, why should they?22:27
wolfspraulit makes no sense22:27
kristianpaul# Operation at 433 MHz, globally available, unlicensed spectrum :O22:28
wpwrakoh, 433 will be around. just not for what we want. that's what i meant with "it's dead" - not the technology as such, but in our context22:28
wolfspraulthe patent system is a social system for the legal profession22:28
wolfspraulnot what you want, yes22:28
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes, that's the marketing view of it, let's say 'american style'22:28
wolfspraulgo for the money!22:28
wolfspraulmeanwhile Werner digs up every last word in the regulations :-)22:28
wolfspraulI'm looking at this from a very practical Chinese view22:29
wolfspraulwill cheap ICs be available or not22:29
wpwrakjust enough to debunk the marketing :)22:29
wolfspraulI think they will be.22:29
wolfspraulcheap ICs can only be available if the volumes are very high22:29
wolfspraulI don't want to pay more than 1-2 USD22:29
kristianpaulmillions of ICs?22:29
wpwrakieee 802.15.4 chips also aren't too bad22:29
wolfspraulso I'm not coming at this from the regulation side, I am coming at it from the cost side22:29
wolfspraulif you want an RF IC at 580 MHZ, for example, it will be crazy expensive because you have to do it all yourself22:30
wolfspraulbut, big surprise, at 433 mhz there are 2 USD chips! great!22:30
wolfspraulof course millions, probably hundreds of millions22:30
wolfspraulhoperf sold 12 million modules in 2009 alone22:30
wolfspraul60% 433, 20% 868, 20% 91522:30
wpwrakthe chip i'm playing with costs you USD 2.0935 at 1000 units. cheap enough ? :)22:30
wolfspraulyes sure22:31
wolfspraulwerner we are on the same page22:31
wolfspraulwe look at this from different angles, I just try to explain to kristianpaul22:31
wolfspraulwerner comes at it from a tech & regulation angle22:31
wolfspraulI come at it from a 'which IC can I get cheap, well documented, easily' angle22:31
Action: kristianpaul evetually ignore regulation22:31
wolfspraulwell that's not good either22:32
nebajothyes, doesn't that require not heeding regulation at all?22:32
wolfspraulthen you put yourself outside of large western markets like US and Europe, at least after you grow22:32
nebajothneeds $1 gnu radio SOCs22:32
wolfspraulit's all about balance22:32
wolfspraulnebajoth: yes sure. if the global market would be 200kk/year you would have them22:32
wpwrakthe problem is that you probably already fail FCC certification if you do this. or if you wiggle by, someone will dig out the regulations and you have PR problem. just no fun there.22:33
kristianpaulwell, i will buy some resistors and try rmfblib anyway ;)22:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: you know how FCC certifications work, right?22:33
wolfspraulkristianpaul: yes sure, play with 433 is cool22:33
wolfspraulsee dash7.org22:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: i know there are way around it :)22:33
kristianpaulnice link!22:33
wolfspraulbut I agree with Werner actually, 802.15.4 is very interesting for real networking stuff22:33
kristianpaulme too22:34
wolfspraulkristianpaul: well yes, I thought I paste it to offset the regulation link werner gave you, which is kind of a depressing read to me :-)22:34
kristianpaulbut too complicated for me :)22:34
kristianpauli just want chatting !22:34
wolfspraulironically it was werner himself who pointed me to dash7 :-)22:34
kristianpaulwpwrak: thanks !22:34
wolfspraulyeah that's werner22:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: i'm actuallly quite happy that TI are collecting all that stuff. it would be nearly impossible to figure it out otherwise :-(22:34
wolfspraulhe can handle some contradictions :-)22:34
wolfspraultrue, but remember, some things grow the deeper you dig22:35
wpwraklet's hope not :) it's deep enough already ...22:35
wolfspraulthere are a lot of regulations that are meaningless, not enforced, well meant but ...22:35
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon:  MLF20m1 fixed http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/b05f6ed22:35
wolfspraulthen xx years later someone cleans it up, or maybe not22:35
wpwrakbtw, 433 seems to be more open in china. some ieee 802.15.4 document are referring to this band specifically "for china"22:36
wolfspraulI don't know. I can only talk to vendors, find out volume, how much they are shipping here and there.22:36
wolfsprauleverybody on that side says 433 is global.22:36
wolfspraulthey are shipping millions and millions of this stuff22:36
kristianpaulwow http://dash7.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11&Itemid=1322:36
wpwrakit is global. just mind the find print :)22:37
wolfspraulthat doesn't sound like customs is waiting to catch the dangerous 433 emissions22:37
wolfspraulI think we can settle on 433 being best for 'technical applications'22:37
wpwraki guess customs will only bother you once some competitor tells them to ...22:37
wolfspraulnow you are moving to the real world :-)22:37
wpwrakthe problem is that you then have to switch to something else. so, why not start with a "safe" band in the first place ?22:38
wolfspraulonly if they have a case22:38
wolfspraulbut no need to argue this, I actually agree with you22:38
wolfspraulI said it many times - 433 - no voice, no networking22:39
wolfspraulall cool with me22:39
wolfspraulI can market a product like this, and if someone hacks it up, not my problem.22:39
wpwrakyou love it so much you forgive it any flaws ;-)22:39
kristianpaulahh and fianlly have to pay to the "alliance"22:39
kristianpaulthats why i never join menberchip groups22:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: yup. dash7 ain't open.22:40
wolfsprauldash7 is patented, correct. but that's only their protocol, not the whole band.22:40
wolfspraulI just wanted to point you to a site that paints a more optimistic picture about 433 than werner.22:40
kristianpaulyeah 433 likes better22:40
wolfspraulwpwrak: in one of the documents you referred me to, I read that luxembourg has special wifi regulations.22:41
wolfspraulI stopped reading at that point.22:41
Action: kristianpaul back to read about PSK3122:41
wpwraki'm not sure they disagree with me. their use is very different, though. 433 is find for sensor networks and such. as long as you don't read them too often.22:41
wolfspraulI grew up right next to luxembourg.22:41
wolfsprauleven if they have special regulations, it takes about 30 minutes in any direction to leave the country. borders are open.22:41
wolfspraulthat's less than it takes me to go to the big electronics shopping area here in Beijing.22:42
wolfspraulseriously, this stuff only exists so some luxembourgian officials have something to do.22:42
wolfspraulnot just reading newspaper every day in the office.22:42
wpwrakso it seems :)22:42
wolfspraulso they write something...22:42
wolfspraulTI picks it up.22:42
wolfsprauland Werner makes sure the whole world thinks about it :-)22:42
wpwrakwell, if you intend to sell  in luxembourg or sell to a reseller there, then you may care. at least warn them.22:43
wolfsprauljust kidding werner, I hope you don't mind...22:43
wolfspraulworst case the product is only available behind the border, i.e. about as far away as any shop inside the city would be too.22:43
wpwrakof course, you can put a big warning "illegal in luxembourg". maybe people will actually like that ;-)22:43
wpwrakyeah, sure22:44
wolfspraulthere are no border controls, just a sign 'entering luxembourg'.22:44
wolfspraulso you have to go to the media markt behind that sign? big deal...22:44
wpwrakmaybe their regs aren't too different from the rest anyway22:44
wolfspraulit seems you need a special license to operate a public wifi22:44
wolfspraulI didnt' really read it.22:44
wpwrakwow :)22:44
wolfspraulwe shouldn't forget the real intentions of regulations.22:45
wolfspraulif it's just to keep bureaucrats fed, that's one thing.22:45
wolfspraulif its' about safety, interference, etc. that's another thing22:45
wpwrakyeah, keep things from interfering22:45
wolfspraulboth are real :-)22:45
wolfspraulwpwrak: get better soon (read about the flu above)22:47
wpwrakthanks ! already preparing to take my canadian bug killer medicine ...22:47
wolfspraulwpwrak: btw, inside China, I can tell you what is cheap will spread, what's written on paper cannot stop that.22:49
wolfspraulso the western regulations influence what spreads in china because they steer investments in a certain direction22:49
wolfspraulwhich then leads to cheap products in certain areas, which will then spread inside China22:49
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: PSU controller added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/8cf60ce22:50
wolfspraulthe country is far too big to stop anything 'illegal' from spreading22:50
wolfspraulso if the 433 mhz rf ic is the cheapest, it will spread22:50
wolfspraulthe moment the xxx mhz ic is just 5 cents cheaper, it will move to that one22:50
wolfspraulthe xxx doesn't matter22:50
kristianpaulgreat !22:51
kristianpaulbut great anyway :)22:51
wolfspraulso if some large US companies start to order xxx mhz rf ics, and they become very cheap due to super high volume, then those chips will also spread in China.22:51
kristianpaulhow is GSM tech going in china btw?22:51
wolfspraul2g, 3g, cdma, td-scdma, etc.22:52
wolfspraulit's a huge country, don't forget that. everything exists somewhere.22:52
wolfsprauland as I said, if something is ordered by a foreign company, and that makes certain things cheap, then those same things will also be sold in China22:53
wolfspraulI'm now using my cheap 20 USD phone to see how long it lasts.22:53
wolfsprauland voice quality in general.22:53
kristianpauloh good, you it englihsh menu finally?22:54
wolfspraulyes :-)22:54
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: DDR0 termaintor placement http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/cf1645b23:49
--- Tue Aug 17 201000:00

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