#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-08-10

monofuelwell i can generate the world on my desktop00:00
uncloudedof course the best thing would be to ask them if they'd be willing to target the NN00:00
monofuelit's just got a single programmer who's already buisy enough bugfixing the game00:00
monofueldoes the nn have libpng12?00:01
xdpiratealrighty im out for now, thanks for the help unclouded00:01
uncloudedit seems you need 10 times the CPU power to emulate another machine, so a 330 MHz NN might be equivalent to a 33 MHz 48600:01
monofuelnot sure if it's needed for a bash though00:01
monofuelyea that's what i was mostly worried of00:01
monofueli figured it was a longshot. my other choice is running it over ssh with wifi00:02
uncloudedpresumably that will work if the new version can run in terminal mode.  best to check first though!00:03
monofuelbest to check first?00:03
uncloudedlooks like libpng has been ported to OpenWRT, not sure of the version though.  of course if you install Gentoo on SD then you have access to every single Gentoo port00:04
monofuelooohhhhhh :)00:04
uncloudedwhich would of course include angband, nethack and so on.00:04
monofuelwould the next device to follow the nn be a ways off still?00:07
monofueli just wouldn't want to buy a nn and have something new come out next week :)00:08
monofuelsnes-nethack-sdl- what other cool uses are there?00:11
uncloudedno idea sorry.  The Ya NanoNote definitely won't be out next week.  if you're considering a NN, you should be aware of the shortcomings such as no USB HOST but don't forget the good point too: it's cheap, it's got a real keyboard that is surprisingly nice to type on, it's incredibly small and it's actually available now, unlike the Pandora00:11
monofuelah k thx!00:12
uncloudedI guess different people will find different uses.  I only want to take a single device with me and that's my phone, so the NN won't be going everywhere with me.  I do think it would be great to take in to the garden with astronomy software and to emulate the C6400:14
uncloudedthere's a page about use cases too: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ben_NanoNote_use_cases00:14
uncloudedmusic player is a big one: a music player that actually has a keyboard with which to cue up your next track00:15
monofuelyea00:16
monofuelwould the cpu be fast enough for videos?00:16
uncloudednot sure.  I think people have done MPEG1 transcoded to 320x240 although I don't know if it would handle MPEG400:17
monofuelah- what about mouse controls? does it have a nub/joystick thing like some laptops have or?00:19
uncloudedno dedicated mouse but I think people have emulated a mouse with the arrow keys, which are laid out nicely00:20
monofueldoes it have java support?00:21
monofuelsorry if most of my questions seem like i'm asking too much from a simple device00:22
monofueli'm just wondering how far i can go with it00:22
uncloudeddoesn't look like it's ported to OpenWRT.  not sure if OpenJDK has been ported to MIPS or not00:25
uncloudedquestions are fine ;)00:25
monofuelhow would i go about using a usb:eth cable with it?00:29
monofueli found a small portable wifi router that i could use00:31
uncloudedit comes with a standard USB A to micro B cable.  when you use one to connect your workstation to the NN, the workstation gains a usb0 interface.  The NN already had one.  then you configured those two interfaces and you have a small private network00:31
uncloudedthen you can set up NAT on your workstation so your NN can get to the Internet via your workstation00:31
monofueli'm just wondering about connecting it to a wireless router running as a client over eth00:32
uncloudedyour wireless router would have to support USB HOST00:32
monofuelwell my idea is to use this http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1065011&CatId=266700:33
monofuelpowered by a small duracell usb charter00:33
monofueland plug the nn into the wifi point over ethernet00:33
uncloudednot sure.  it doesn't say whether it supports USB HOST.  I'm a bit out of my depth here but I'd suggest looking at OpenWRT supported devices and see which have USB HOST00:35
monofuelwell, it would connect to the nanonote over ethernet00:37
monofuelis usb host needed for a usb-ethernet conversion?00:37
monofuelah oh well- too much to carry around anyway00:38
uncloudedif you really have to get the NN on to the Internet when you're out and about then SDIO wifi seems the way to go.  if don't mind putting some work in you could look into tethering your phone to the NN's serial port and using GPRS or 3G to access the Internet00:39
monofuelserial port?00:40
uncloudedyes, the NN has a serial port.  It would need some electronics to get it tethered to a phone though so not really an option unless you're into that sort of thing00:42
monofueli don't even have a nice phone to tether to00:43
monofueli came acrost a couple pages on nn wifi...00:43
uncloudedsurprisingly many phones can be tethered.  check the gnokii package in your gentoo for more information00:44
monofuelmy phone doesn't even have 3g. or text messaging. or anything other than calling.00:44
uncloudedwhich phone is it?00:44
monofuela really really old nextel one00:44
uncloudedmaybe you are out of luck there ;)00:45
monofueli'd like to get an android phone such as the droid, but at minimum wage......00:45
monofuelnot sure what other uses i could have for the nn...00:56
monofuelwould be cool for nethack and custom-made sdl games on the go :)00:56
uncloudedthe limit is your imagination ;)  python is installed as standard and pygame is an "opkg install pygame" away if you want to be a road warrior00:59
monofuelah- forgot all about python! i'm a little more familiar with pygame than perl-sdl actually00:59
monofueland what about using directFB instead of an x server?01:00
monofuelis that tricky to setup?01:00
uncloudedthere's nothing to do.  it just goes.  just install pygame and start your python app.  you might need to update to the latest firmware to have python installed as standard.  I got great help from this channel when updating the firmware on my NN on the first day I got it01:03
monofuelah, so directFB is just automatic for graphical apps?01:03
monofuelsounds suspiciously simple :)01:03
uncloudedit really is that simple.  pygame is bound to SDL and SDL uses directfb and directfb uses the kernel frame buffer device01:05
monofuelneat01:06
uncloudedso there's another use case: go through all the pygame games and see which run well on the NN ;)01:09
uncloudedor write your own, on the device itself if you like01:09
wolfspraulwpwrak: I think your --plot extension to eeschema has not yet gone upstream01:29
wolfspraulin terms of finding the root .sch, I think the .pro file might have a link to it?01:29
wolfspraulat least that would be an official 'pointer' instead of inventing some new way to identify the root. of course we would then need to look for .pro files and follow the link to the root .sch01:30
qi-bot[commit] Panthera T. Altaica: Moved to Code::Blocks and GCC http://qi-hw.com/p/wakan-udtn/a725a2701:31
wolfspraulin the .pro file, there seems to be a RootSch= settings (under [general]), is that useful?01:54
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: cleanup the output message http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/b21d2e402:09
viriclarsc: hmm nice; maybe I really have hw problems then03:22
viriclarsc: thank you for the try. So it may have hapened that the hw broke between the switch from 2.6.34 to 2.6.3503:22
wolfspraulviric: the way the insert-detect pin is mechanically designed is really bad in the microSD connector used in the Ben NanoNote03:25
wolfspraulwe already oud this out the painful way, and will have our eye on it for future devices03:25
wolfsprauls/oud/found/03:25
wolfsprauli'm not sure whether that is what you have, it's just an idea03:25
wolfspraulsometimes that little metal tongue is pushed up (sometimes you can push it back down after opening the device)03:26
qi-bot[commit] Bas Wijnen: start nand-boot; wrap startup http://qi-hw.com/p/iris/e4151e704:10
viricwolfspraul: ok, I will check04:22
viricwolfspraul: thank you04:22
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: update the debian/changelog http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/c5fb13704:45
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add debian/watch file http://qi-hw.com/p/xburst-tools/ae00b6404:45
NecrosporusI have decided to avoid buying Ben NanoNote, because it doesn't have internal bluetooth and is rather slow (only 32M ram, while modern Mandriva works slowly even on 512M RAM computer)05:18
NecrosporusIs it planned to make next generation device with some wireless connectivity, bluetooth or wi-fi?05:19
Necrosporusbt for me is preferable05:19
wolfspraulNecrosporus: there's a lot of discussions around that. personally I think both bt and wi-fi are unlikely.05:20
NecrosporusThan internal USB05:20
wolfspraulit's just very hard to make any progress on the freedom side with these technologies, and if the hardware we are making is just about licensing proprietary technology, we could stop the project and license something really good right away :-)05:20
Necrosporuswolfspraul, I already have some USB dongle which work with gNewSense05:21
zearif it only had a regular size usb host, one could use that bt dongle: http://img19.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/11/73/48/52/117348529205:21
wolfspraulyes sure, more memory, usb host/on-the-go, and also some rf, although not sure about bt and wi-fi05:21
zearthough if it's gonna be mini usb host, need to put a mini to regular size usb adapter05:21
NecrosporusI can peel it from plastic and plug inside05:21
Necrosporuswolfspraul, what's rf?05:22
Necrosporuszear, I have no idea, where can I get such a dongle05:23
zearNecrosporus, every ebay auction05:23
NecrosporusSo it would be preferable to make a internal USB port05:23
zearthey're in computer stores now too05:23
wolfspraulsorry with rf I mean anything radio, like the bluetooth and wi-fi you mention05:23
zearNecrosporus, they're also silly cheap05:23
zearmaybe 5 EUR05:23
Necrosporus2 internal usb to plug some flash and bluetooth dongle inside the device05:25
NecrosporusOr 2 microSD + 1 internal usb05:25
zearthere are even smaller dongles ;) http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/11/73/55/50/117355508005:25
NecrosporusI wonder if it's possible to make a usb flash which can be drown into USB port completely05:27
zearyou have to get it out somehow05:27
NecrosporusIt would be impossible to extract it without special tools, but it would be invisible05:27
NecrosporusIf someone would not try to insert another USB device into that port05:28
zeari have also seen wifi dongles that are just slightly bigger from that size bt dongles05:28
NecrosporusAnyway, I want a device for reading books from fb2 files05:30
NecrosporusIt should be able to receive files from bluetooth, or at least support some sort of memory cards, it should have some backlight and  good-for-eyes screen05:31
NecrosporusI'm not sure if nano-note screen is good for eyes05:32
wpwrakwolfspraul: (--plot) i know. dick doens't like it because it's not "c++-ish" enough. but he doesn't have anything better either. so it'a just a patch to add.05:32
zearNecrosporus, 320x240 is not a good res for ebooks05:33
NecrosporusI read books from such a screen, it was good enough05:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: (root .sch) the .pro name would be a strong hint. it's difficult to use different names for .pro and .sch05:33
zearadditionally nanonte's led placement on the screen is not good for small text reading05:33
NecrosporusOnly there is a problem, my PDA is almost dead05:33
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, i got my ursp2 out of customs yesterday :) didn't get to play with it yet, though05:34
wpwrakNecrosporus: for wirless, it all depends on what chips we can find. if you can find something great for BT (or even wifi), that would help. there are the following issues o consider:05:36
wolfspraulwpwrak: [usrp] great! I saw the wpan commits, very curious what's going to happen next... :-)05:37
wolfspraulabout the eeschema, well, we just need to settle on something05:37
wolfspraulwe can say we assume thers is exactly 1 .pro file, and it has a RootSch= setting, and that will point to the schematics are are going to plot05:38
wpwrakNecrosporus: 1) can we actually get it. some chips are only sold to large customers, who buy hundreds of thousand. there may also be an up-front fee to pay to license the use of the technology, that can be in the order of 1 million USD, perhaps more. for some wireless technologies.05:38
wolfspraulfor plotting I like the --plot, although there are many options in the dialogs, svg, etc. so maybe a more general way to script the UI would be good05:38
wolfspraulbut in the end I don't want to talk, I want to make something work on the server now, because we have active projects and automatically generated schematics could help quite a bit05:39
wolfspraulfinally - how do we build the kicad binary for the server? if upstream is slow in accepting stuff, and maybe later we want fped or other extensions from you as well, maybe we just build from your kicad sources then?05:39
wolfspraulwhat is the 'official' way to build "werner's latest kicad"?05:40
Necrosporuswpwrak, there is a simple solution: internal usb host05:40
wpwrakNecrosporus: 2) is there publicly available documentation. we don't have that for everything (e.g., the CPU itself has a semi-closed data sheet), but it makes development a lot easier to have a data sheet we can actually share. if it's in the public, that's also about the only way to make sure you can still maintain your platform after the next company merger or policy change.05:40
wolfspraulNecrosporus: internal USB host is unsatisfactory, at least for me, for a number of reasons:05:41
wpwrakwolfspraul: (kicad) the one documented in gta02-core should be fine05:41
wolfspraul1) plugging multiple pieces together is not going to work for end users. too much will go wrong, dongle lost, connector breaks, etc. costs are also too high.05:42
wolfspraul2) going via USB means up- and down-regulating to 5V, so the power consumption of this solution will never be competitive with an integrated solution, issues such as sleep/suspend modes, incoming calls/connections etc. make it even worse05:43
wpwrakNecrosporus: 2b) there may be other concerns regarding openness, particularly if the technology is heavily proprietary or patent-encumbered in all other regards. in my opinion, that doesn't have to be a knock-out criterion, but it means that the effort put into this should be very limited.05:43
wolfspraul3) if we are licensing (buying) proprietary technology, such as the one neatly outsourced in your USB dongle, then I don't understand what the point of our project should be. Why not just use a really nice and integrated proprietary product right away?05:43
wpwrakNecrosporus: 3) must fit into the system. mechanically, electronically, in kind of use.05:43
wpwrakwolfspraul: for 1), a full-sizes A port would help at least with that tiny BT dongle. that's about the only sensible path to BT i can see at the moment.05:44
wpwrakon my fishing expeditions into RF-land, i also keep on looking for any BT or WLAN bycatch, but so far, i haven't found anything that's usable and that comes at least with a basic data sheet :-(05:45
wolfspraulyes but full-size A is big, we looked at it it wouldn't fit, plus I am just not motivated to spend my time integrating proprietary technology. if someone else wants to do that they are more than welcome :-)05:46
NecrosporusInternal micro PCI05:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: about 3), i think it's okay of we accept it as a temporary solution. we just should make sure a route to more openness exists.05:46
wpwrakwolfspraul: i'm still unconvinced big A wouldn't fit :)05:47
wolfspraulI knew you would say that :-)05:47
wolfspraulok, for the server05:47
wolfspraulwe use the 02-core kicad then, and --plot05:47
wolfspraulkeep things simple05:47
NecrosporusIt's possible to sell NanoNote without modules05:47
wolfspraulso the only thing is how we find the root .sch05:47
wolfspraulis there normally only 1 .pro file per project?05:48
wolfspraulsome people don't seem to use .pro files at all05:48
wolfspraulwhy that?05:48
wpwrakwolfspraul: (wpan) the next steps: draw the remaining footprints (just a few qfn and solder pads missing), make the schematics of C8051F326 and AT86RF230 reference design (the latter with external balun, according to application note AVR2004), plus TI's antenna05:50
wpwrak(wpan) make the layout. build it. test voltage levels. test oscillator frequency and stability. move USB stack over from IDBG (this wants a clean solution, but not sure if i'll get to making it now or if i'll just branch and jump) add USB to SPI processing, along with a few "high-level" operations due to limited response times allowed by the chip05:52
wolfspraulhe, sounds great05:54
wolfspraulwhat about the .pro ?05:54
wpwrak(wpan) read chip's ID registers from host. tune the crystal from host. crank up RF RX and scan the spectrum for signal strength (f/power plot, kinda spectrum analysis). compare with wifi activity and what the USRP sees.05:54
wpwrak(wpan) finally, crank up the RF PA and establish communication. watch the spectrum with the usrp. then make an f/tx-pwr/link quality plot. play with distance and location. decide if the thing is of any use :-)05:55
wpwrak(wpan) if yes, examine competitors to see any if their chips are better. e.g., ti have a similar one that's a bit smaller. almost all the ieee 802.15.4 chips have good documentation.05:56
wpwrakwolfspraul: (.pro) not sure if you can get away without even having a .pro file. you can of course choose not to share it05:57
wolfspraulwpwrak: well you tell me, you know kicad much better. we can just use the RootSch= from the .pro file, and work that way05:59
wpwrakwolfspraul: (.pro) generally only one .pro per project. e.g.,. gta02-core has multiple .pro files, but that's because it splits the kicad project into derived (by machine) projects.05:59
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Oops, forgot to commit wpan-atrf.pro http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/42e8ecb06:00
wpwrak(hrhmm...)06:00
wolfspraulhe :-)06:00
wpwrakwolfspraul: i think you're fine if you just go for the .pro, yes. any simple project will have just one. complex ones like gta02-core will have their own extra build rules anyway.06:01
wolfspraulyes but that's the point, make a system that is flexible enough for kicad in general06:02
wolfspraulI can see the value of scripting on kicad files for several purposes, not just to create png/pdf schematics06:02
wpwrakwolfspraul: run a project-provided shell script ;-)06:03
wolfspraulbtw, the wpan-atrf.pro does not have the RootSch=06:03
alcyjust order the nanonote from IDA :)06:03
wpwrakwolfspraul: scripting in kicad is still a long way. one obstacle that the guys in charge really like their gui. so "scripting" for them usually means "clipboard"06:03
wolfspraulpainful06:03
wolfspraulhmm06:04
wolfspraulstill not happy don't seem to find a nice and clean and quick solution for the schematics :-)06:04
wolfsprauleither it's nothing (we have that already) or so general that it will take forever to implement (like running free scripts)06:04
wpwrakwolfspraul: oh, rootsch was supposed a tag in .pro ? didn't even know :) you can simply go for the same name06:04
wolfspraulalcy: great! thanks!!06:05
wolfspraulI hope you will not regret later, and this will lead you to an interesting development path. It should!06:06
wolfsprauland the device should also be functional day-to-day today!06:06
wolfspraulhopefully06:06
wpwraki think you can just try the simple case and for n in *.pro; do sch="`echo "$n" | sed 's/\.pro$/.sch/`"; [ -r "$sch" ] && eeschema --plot "$sch"; done; even with gta02-core,06:07
alcyshould arrive in about 3 days. thanks, wolfspraul. lol, I hope so too.06:07
wolfspraulok06:08
wolfspraulso for every .pro. you take the corresponding .sch and plot that06:08
wolfspraulyou think that will normally be the right thing in a kicad tree06:08
wolfspraulalright!06:08
wolfspraul:-)06:08
wpwrakwolfspraul: (wpan) if things work well on the hardware side, the software side needs a look. e.g., see how the zigbee and 6lowpan projects are doing.06:09
wolfspraulyes it all sounds SUPER INTERESTING06:09
bartbessomehow that sounds as if it is sarcastic to me06:10
wpwrakwolfspraul: (.pro) i think such a strategy would even work on gta02-core. one gotcha: if your schematics are in a different directory from the root, that would be harder to find. but then, i'm not sure such a setup would be very common. just have a means to turn it all off if it doesn't work.06:11
wpwrakbartbes:  is the use of the word "super" a giveaway ? :)06:12
bartbesnice how the 2 of you have different conversations at the same time06:12
bartbesdoesn't it make sense to.. you know, make sense?06:12
wpwrakbartbes: there is admittedly the small problem that ieee 802.15.4 is a bit of a niche at the moment. also, it's advertized as "personal area", with correspondingly small distances. but we'll see about the latter. some of the chips already seem to be some 20+ dB better than the standard requires.06:13
bartbesso ehm06:14
bartbeswhat do you connect the 802.15.4 to?06:14
wolfspraulbartbes: not sarcastic06:14
wpwrakbartbes: ZigBee, RF4CE (sp? now merged into ZigBee), 6loWPAN, anything new you come up with. it's mainly things like snesor networks at the moment, but i guess rf remotes and such will follow before too long.06:15
bartbeswell, how do we get internet connectivity from it?06:16
bartbesI doubt it is somehow compatible with 802.1106:16
wpwrakbartbes: 6lowpan should take care of that06:16
bartbesbut it needs a separate router, doesn't it?06:16
wpwrakbartbes: by the timne the ya comes out, the ipv4 address space should be exhausted already, so we'll be very trendy with an ipv6-centric solution ;-))06:17
bartbesheh06:17
wpwrakyes, need some kind of router06:17
wpwrak(ipv6) you could of course tunnel ipv4 over it or maybe even tweak the protocol to support ipv4 natively. so in case ipv4 refuses to die, we can handle it :)06:18
bartbesdie ipv4, die!06:18
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: merge over changes from OpenWrt trunk: http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/ff7b2bf06:19
zedstar6lowpan looks cool06:24
wpwrakusbboot == u key and xbboot == shorting the resistor ?06:31
larscxbboot uses the same mechanism as usbboot06:34
wpwraklarsc: hmm, so wolfgang's statement (on the list) that one may be better than the other doesn't make sense ?07:06
n0153hello all07:08
n0153i have a question07:08
larscwpwrak: what is the subject of his mail?07:09
n0153I'm from Belarus and I want to buy one ben nano note07:09
larscwpwrak: found it07:10
n0153I wrote to Yi@sharism.cc few month ago with same question07:11
n0153and still have no answer07:11
larscwpwrak: with xbboot you can load a kernel or whatever executable and run it. with usbboot you can read/write nand and stuff07:12
larscso with xbboot you would boot a kernel and then use standard linux tools to do the flashing07:12
n0153Maksim 'max_posedon' Melnikau(he is from Belarus too) said to me that there are some problem with standart delivery method07:13
n0153How can I buy ben nano note? Anybody on this channel can help me with this problem?07:15
n0153I very like idea of open hardware and whant to buy and use ben nano note and next versions of this device too07:16
n0153Also I want to help my friends to buy it07:17
wpwraklarsc: but they all use the usb boot in the CPU's ROM ? i.e., if the USB stack there has a problem, it would affect both in the same way ?07:17
rafawpwrak: I think that wolfgang was talking about to flash using linux initramfs tools would better than using usbboot07:17
bartbesn0153: you could look at this page: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Shipping_Notes07:18
wpwrakrafa: he does sound as if he's saying that avoiding usbboot would also solve general usb problems.07:19
larscwpwrak: the rom is only used to load another binary to do the real work.07:19
bartbeswpwrak: not to me, I agree with rafa, of course this is only interpretation though07:19
rafawe can ask him :D07:19
n0153Yes, I know about this page, but this page refers to max_posedon, and he adviced me to write to Yi@sharism.cc07:20
n0153I already do it, but there are no answer07:21
wpwraklarsc: ah, so it's rom+usbboot or rom+xbboot+kernel.07:21
larscmore or less07:21
larscyes07:21
wpwraklarsc: okay, then it makes sense. thanks !07:21
larscthe problem is that the binary loaded by usbboot is not very fault tolerant. thats why we see so many problems with flashing07:22
wpwrakn0153: maybe ping her again ? or mail wolfgang07:22
n0153I ping her twice already07:23
n0153How to mail Wolfgang?07:23
wpwrakn0153: wolfgang@sharism.cc07:24
n0153Thank you! I will try07:24
wpwrakn0153: good luck ! importing things can be fun :)07:24
wpwraklarsc: so usbboot and xbboot have a different codebase ? (sorry for the noob questions. still only getting my bearings.)07:25
larscwpwrak: yes07:27
larscxbboot is quite minimal07:27
wpwraki like the "let linux do it" approach better anyway. no use in replicating the same functionality over and over again.07:30
wpwrakwolfspraul: btw, did that story of the ben lost in buenos aires have a happy ending ?07:33
DocScrutinizer/kick HtheB07:33
wolfspraulwpwrak: hah, not really. turns out the guy outsmarted our payment system and used a stolen credit card :-)07:33
wolfspraulmeanwhile the Ben is back in safety in Hong Kong, of course we lost some money for shipping and all the attempts at delivering the ben07:34
wolfspraulcould thing we didn't succeed07:34
wolfspraulunfortunately it's too much trouble to bring forward the case legally, so he gets away with this nonsense07:34
wolfspraulsometimes that's real life :-)07:34
wolfspraulin about 900 Bens sold we had 2 such cases now07:34
wpwrakwolfspraul: wow. what a bastard :-(07:34
wolfspraulwell yeah, real life I don't mind. we need to strengthen our systems and we do :-)07:35
Textmodeonly two in 900 doesn't sound so bad.07:36
wpwraki should ask around if anyone knows some scary folks. send them over to show him how far the arm of the chinese mafia reaches ;-)07:36
Textmodenot that it makes it any less annoying, but...07:36
wolfspraulTextmode: we could have caught both of them, our mistake...07:40
wpwrakTextmode: what's sad about it is that, because the shipment was stuck in customs and the guy couldn't be reached by phone or by mail, wolfgang traveled all the way from china to argentina to tell him personally. such a fine customer service wasted on a scoundrel.07:43
Textmodeouch...07:44
wolfspraulha ha07:44
wolfspraulWerner exaggerates a little07:44
wolfspraulI traveled for the famous Casa Almesberger asado07:44
wolfspraulplus a nice soccer game07:44
wolfspraulbut yeah, of course, I did follow up and try to give this guy good customer service07:44
wolfspraulas I would do with anyone who buys a Ben NanoNote :-)07:44
wpwrakn0153: so there is hope ;-)07:45
Action: Textmode huggles wolfspraul 07:45
rafaTextmode: Wolfgang exaggerates a little07:47
rafait was not a nice soccer game07:47
Textmodeheh07:47
bartbesis there a way to run gdb on the nanonote?08:02
bartbes(or a gdb server, and then gdb on my comp)08:02
bartbesbecause "Segmentation fault" by itself doesn't provide me with too much information08:02
rafabartbes: could you install it? opkg install gdb?08:03
bartbesreally?08:03
bartbeswow..08:03
rafaI think so.. at least I do08:04
bartbesso ehm, where do I get the package from08:05
bartbesI never knew how to get packages without compiling08:05
rafado not you have opkg?.. I mean, I was thinking that openwrt uses opkg as well. opkg udpate; opkg install gdb08:06
bartbesreally?08:06
Action: bartbes sets up internet access on his nn08:06
rafabartbes: I am not sure, I use jlime and I have gdb on repo to install with opkg. IIRC I read from other guys here using opkg in openwrt08:07
bartbesI first had to run update08:07
bartbesbut then it worked08:07
bartbeshmm08:09
bartbescorrupted stacks08:09
bartbesnice08:09
bartbesehm.. weird08:13
bartbesah it doesn't support mips08:14
bartbes(remote debugging)08:14
Action: bartbes builds the gdb in the toolchain08:18
bartbescome on toolchain.. build faster08:23
rafabartbes: is not gdb on repo useful?08:24
bartbesrafa: I need the gdb from the toolchain (the one that runs on the dev computer)08:24
bartbesor at least, if I want to use gdbserver08:24
bartbesbecause the standard gdb on my comp doesn't support mips08:25
rafabartbes: ??08:25
bartbesbasically08:25
bartbesI'm running the application on my nanonote08:25
rafabartbes: standard gdb?.. did you install gdb from opkg?08:25
bartbesbut debugging on my computer08:25
rafabartbes: ah.. okey. it sounded me that you wanted to debug on nn08:25
bartbesI semi-do08:26
bartbesbut the gdb on the nn was easy to set uo08:26
bartbes*up08:26
bartbesas you said, opkg took care of that08:26
bartbesnow I'm setting up my comp to do remote debugging08:26
bartbesehm09:08
bartbesis the nanonote little endian or big endian?09:08
bartbesoh09:09
bartbesmipsel --> little endian09:09
wejplittle endian09:09
bartbesI think that caused my segfault09:09
bartbesbecause a platform-dependant check (not directly related to the endianness btw)09:10
bartbesdidn't include a header09:10
bartbesthe endianness is simply because I'm now circumventing the check09:10
bartbes</rant>09:11
bartbesI failed anyway09:13
Action: bartbes is tired09:13
bartbesI'll do it tomorrow09:14
Action: Textmode huggles bartbes 09:27
bartbes:309:28
bartbesjust what I needed09:28
bartbesthanks Textmode09:28
qi-bot[commit] Carlos Camargo: making some manufacturer recommendations http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/839001510:58
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: use uClibc version 0.9.32pre by default http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/eab6c3311:08
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: adjust config to latest revision of openwrt-xburst and feeds listed in feeds.conf.default http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/faee63f11:08
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: config: preselect qt4-packages which require nptl-support, since uClibc 0.9.32 with nptl support got merged over, preselect package <NanoMap> http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/73e7e7a11:08
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: check for <CONFIG_UCLIBC_VERSION="0.9.32"> instead of <CONFIG_UCLIBC_VERSION_0_9_32=y>, as CONFIG_UCLIBC_VERSION_*-booleans are only exposed, when <DEVEL=y> http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/d770d6611:08
kristianpaulwpwrak: hello:)11:13
kristianpaulwpwrak: i read you are planning do some stuff using SPI port11:13
kristianpaulare yuo using a native implementation of SPI in the ben, ifis truw, where is it?11:13
kristianpaulor planning bitbanging*11:14
kristianpaul(there is mail with this question too)11:14
wpwrakkristianpaul: haven't really decided yet. probably bitbanging11:27
qi-bot[commit] Werner Almesberger: Added a data sheet viewer. It improves upon the design used in gta02-core by http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/6ec22bc11:27
larscthere is no driver for the native spi yet anyway11:28
kristianpaulwpwrak: ok, but, btw how many gpio ports are you aware off?11:28
kristianpaulahh11:28
kristianpaulba dthing11:28
larscand i think the pins on which native spi is availabe are already used by something else11:29
wpwrakkristianpaul: phuh, lots ...11:29
wpwraklarsc: the keyboard, as usual :-(11:30
wpwrakU1A: PD25/TX (TP75),11:30
wpwrakGPB17 (NC), GPB18 (TP23), GPB30 (TP25), GPB27 (NC), GPB28 (NC)11:30
wpwrakU1C: GPC8 (TP35), GPC9 (TP36), GPD15 (TP38)11:30
wpwrakkristianpaul: the ones with a TP you can reach. the ones marked "NC" require special skills11:31
wpwrakmail answered as well :)11:38
kristianpaulwich speacial skills?11:39
kristianpaulgreat :)11:40
Action: kristianpaul read mail11:40
wpwrakkristianpaul: dig into the epoxy, attach a thin gold wire to the CPU die, place it where it's convenient for you11:40
kristianpaulhmm11:41
wpwrakkristianpaul: yeah, unfortunately not really feasible11:43
bartbesmay I ask why ldd crashes on every dynamic lib?12:00
Textmodelol12:00
bartbesit's certainly less than useful12:01
alcynot directly of interest, but worth a look nevertheless http://blog.2yb.org/12:01
rafabartbes: perhaps it uses bash12:02
bartbes...12:02
bartbesfor dynamic libraries only?12:02
rafaand you need to install bash12:02
bartbesthat would be weird..12:02
rafaah..12:02
rafait works for others stuff?12:03
bartbesfor executables, yes12:03
rafaokey, then another thing is the problem12:04
bartbesno clues?12:10
bartbeshmm12:15
bartbesthe toolchain doesn't even have ldd12:15
methril_workbartbes, did you mean ld? ldd is a shell script12:18
bartbesno, I mean ldd12:18
bartbesmethril_work: and I'm pretty sure it's not a shell script12:19
methril_work$ file /usr/bin/ldd12:20
methril_work/usr/bin/ldd: Bourne-Again shell script text executable12:20
bartbesoh wow12:20
bartbesit wasn't there earlier, did I typo?12:20
bartbeshmm but still12:20
bartbesit fails when running it on dynamic libraries12:20
methril_workthen is the linker12:21
rafabartbes: you have bash?.. just to know.. perhaps it is a link to something no bash? :P12:21
methril_workcould you post the error?12:22
kristianpaulany one around compiled iris recently?12:45
kristianpauli'm trying to install pypp and got and error about a could find a setup script12:46
viriclarsc: after putting and removing the sd card some times, that very same 2.6.35 works great detecting the card. Sorry for the noise.12:49
kristianpaulah np i got how copile it12:57
bartbesmethril_work: just a segfault, no error13:00
methril_workbartbes, and no warning when comiling?13:02
bartbesno13:02
bartbesbtw13:02
bartbesis this about ldd or the lib?13:02
qi-bot[commit] nico: [backfire] merge r22561 http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/26d1b0b13:05
qi-bot[commit] florian: remove rdc 2.6.32 support from backfire, not used http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9a92ea213:05
qi-bot[commit] florian: backport r22259 to backfire http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/431f80713:05
qi-bot[commit] florian: pupdate wrt350nv2-builder to v2.3 (#7580) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/7bf1f5113:05
qi-bot[commit] florian: backport r22580 to backfire http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/f166e3e13:05
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: Merge branch 'backfire' into xburst http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/62adc7313:05
qi-bot[commit] Mirko Vogt: adjust package/{openssl,mac80211} to openwrt-backfire http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/cf4c25d13:05
viricSorry; does anybody now what doom implementation people use in the nanonote?14:28
bartbesprboom?14:32
viricI don'tk now14:37
viricis it?14:37
bartbesthe doom I have is prboom14:39
bartbesthat I know14:39
bartbesand that is the one mentioned on the wiki14:40
bartbesby.. tuxbrain2 iirc14:40
mthbartbes: CongoZombie's doom port is also popular14:40
mthon Dingoo, at least14:40
viricok14:43
viricthank you!14:43
viricSDL can be built so it runs on framebuffer, and it does not require X, right?14:46
mthyes, SDL can run on the frame buffer14:48
mthprobably that driver is included in the default SDL for NN14:48
zearmth, i already ported czdoom to the nanonote14:50
zearand there's also yet another port of prboom to it14:50
zeari don't know if this is exactly the right place to ask this question, though it is about the qi mailinglist, so i guess it's related14:59
zearrecently i receive more and more mails from the mailing list that are splitted from the main "thread", and go directly to my main mailbox rather than being sorted as mailinglist mails15:00
zeari never had to deal with any other mailinglist, so pardon this silly question15:01
zearthis is quite annoying, because now my mailbox is spammed with mailinglist mail15:01
tuxbrain2zear, list disscusion y development has been merged, you have to reaply the rules to this new mailing list.15:11
zearah15:12
zearthat could explain it15:12
viricDoes the SDL for the nanonote (let's say, in openwrt) use simd instructions?15:19
qwebirc54507hi16:06
mthviric: afaik the only SIMD instruction using program is Ingenic's MPlayer port17:38
viricI tried to build it...17:38
viricbut it's quite coupled with *their* toolchain17:38
mthyes, it uses some awk script to preprocess the asm17:39
viricwell, that would not be a big trick17:39
mthalso, their MPlayer assumes it runs with their framebuffer drivers, which has some additional ioctls17:39
viricI'm afraid they have patched binutils17:39
viricAhh really?17:39
viricouch.17:39
mththey haven't patched binutils, but that is what they should have done17:39
viricWe would have the source for that, right.17:40
mthmxu_as is the awk asm preprocessor17:41
mthit's in Ingenic's SDK17:41
viricwow.17:42
viricDid you see that mplayer running?17:42
viricdoes it perform much better?17:42
mthI haven't tested it myself, but I heard it did run better17:42
mthI don't know how much of that is due to the SIMD instructions and how much due to the IPU17:43
viricwith the usual mplayer, does people manage to play anything?17:43
mthzear: did you compare MPlayer versions?17:43
viricI tried to put a mp4 video, and it went at 0.4 fps iirc17:43
viric(it was debian mplayer)17:43
viricI've been trying to build my own, but the build halts at a gcc file compilation *without any gcc message17:44
viric*17:44
mthif you transcode the video to 320x240, it should play smoothly even without hardware acceleration17:44
viricah great17:44
viricmth: what codec you have in mind?17:44
mthyears ago I used divx on a 200 MHz ARM17:44
viricthe divx implementation in ffmpeg?17:45
mthMPEG2 is easier to decode, but results in larger files17:45
mthI transcoded using mencoder, I think it uses ffmpeg17:45
viricI meant the decoder17:45
mthI don't know, whatever mplayer selects by default17:45
viricit was mplayer on the arm? ok17:46
mthSharp Zaurus17:46
viricah I've heard about it17:46
viricSo, I can't build mplayer! weird.17:46
viricIt looks like a gcc bug17:46
mthI've never seen gcc fail silently though17:47
viricIt's the first time I see it17:47
viricmake says 'error code 2'17:47
mthI've seen intenral compiler errors or complaining about legal code17:47
viricalways the same source file.17:47
viricIn fact it looks like the whole 'make' dies at once.17:48
mthwe even had miscompiled code once, but it did produce something then17:48
viricweird17:48
mthMake doesn't say which rule it was working on?17:49
viricI don't see even make.17:49
viric(I just noticed)17:49
bartbescan you.. paste the output?17:51
viricMmm I think I tracked that to something I use in-between17:52
viricsorry for the noise17:52
viricI got the gcc failing message:17:52
viriccodec-cfg.c: In function 'parse_codec_cfg':17:52
viriccodec-cfg.c:546:24: error: 'builtin_video_codecs' undeclared (first use in this function)17:52
bartbesthat seems like it's missing an include dir and/or header though17:52
viricI'll check17:53
zearmth, i haven't been really messing with mplayer for the nanonote17:59
zearwell, tried to both run the dingux binary, and compile it myself, in both cases it wasn't working17:59
zearbut that was on a very early version of firmware for the nanonote17:59
zearthings could have changed now17:59
viricok18:01
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: DDR de-coupling caps. added http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/cac88e318:39
bartbes<toolchain-path>/usr/lib/liblua.so: undefined reference to  `crypt'18:52
bartbesthat was unexpected18:52
bartbesso where can I find libcrypt.so?18:54
bartbesis it libgcrypt is it libmcrypt?18:55
bartbesI think it's mcrypt..18:56
viricbartbes: libcrypt.so comes with glibc19:05
bartbesah ok19:05
bartbesthanks19:05
viricnp19:05
viricit's rare when I can answer anything here :)19:06
bartbesit's very annoying when you see a simple program running flawlessly on your comp19:07
bartbesand then utterly fail when compiling/running for/on the nn19:07
virichow simple?19:08
viricmaybe it's not that simple19:09
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: SD connector attached to th S6 http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/57948cf19:10
bartbesit just loads a few lua libs19:10
bartbesand runs 1 line of lua19:10
viricoh19:10
bartbesyet.. crypt is messing with me19:10
Ornotermesi got an idea that could be really cool, an open hardware network router with wifi19:11
bartbesah well, I'll continue work on it tomorrow (ehm.. today, whatever)19:11
larscbartbes: how do you try to compile your program?19:12
urandom__Ornotermes yeah might be cool (but there are already some router you can install for example openwrt on, so it would have to be very open)19:16
Ornotermesurandom__: and advantages that other routers don't have19:18
Ornotermeslike being easy to hack19:18
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: only a test http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/ef2028719:28
qi-bot[commit] Andres Calderon: VCCs connected http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/a0ee3f919:52
qi-bot[commit] Juan64Bits: Fixing USB connections http://qi-hw.com/p/xue/11bf38022:25
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: [gmenu2x] this patch is out of date http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/8e5d78d23:28
--- Wed Aug 11 201000:00

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