#qi-hardware IRC log for Monday, 2010-08-02

kyaki wonder why it's not in our git yet02:32
kyakgoing to check it and add..02:34
kyakit seems like a good chance to finally have utf-8 working02:35
wolfspraulkyak: if you plan to commit into openwrt-packages, you will become the next beta-tester of my latest script fixes :-)02:58
kyakwolfspraul: cool :)02:58
wolfspraullet's see who thinks it's cool after you're done :-)02:59
wolfspraulI'm always amazed by these scripts, calling each other, piping, expecting, what not...02:59
wolfspraulkyak: btw, proper utf-8 would be AWESOME!03:00
wolfspraulwe need that for Chinese, Japanese, Russian, etc. etc.03:00
wolfspraulas you know :-)03:00
kyakand the question is always "hwo this even works??" :)03:00
kyakyes, utf-8 is very important03:00
wolfspraulthe problem was that I hooked the irc commitlog into the git mailing list commitlog, and stdout and stderr got mixed up03:00
kyakinternational input would be great, too03:00
wolfspraulshould be fixed now, and I tested it, but who knows03:01
kyakand then - localized versions of NN keyboard buttons :)03:02
kyakbtw, there's 33 letters in Russian alphabet; not sure how it can be fit on Ben's keyboard ;003:02
wolfspraulkyak: I'd love to do a russian version, but with ... let me see ... maybe 5 customers there (?) it's not really worth it yet :-)03:17
wolfspraulbut we get there!03:17
kyak5 customers, it's huge :)03:19
wolfspraulwas guessing03:21
wolfspraulmaybe 2-10, don't know03:21
wolfspraulactually it's nice, I like to start small and with a strong base, then grow03:21
wolfspraulbetter have a strong root first, then a lot of fluff huff, big announcements, etc.03:22
wolfspraulRussian customs is nasty, I think the proper way to get more in is via import companies in Finnland03:22
wolfsprauluntil then will only be individual units to real pioneers03:22
kyakit is nasty; actually our company has it's own "man" in customs to avoid problems during import (we import from China). I believe every big company has it's "representative" at customs to help move things faster03:28
kyakit's so corrupt.03:29
qi-bot[commit] Xiangfu Liu: add asound.state to data/qi_lb60/etc http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/3244d5e03:29
wolfspraulxiangfu: great!03:31
wolfspraulit seems the commitlog made it here into IRC, and it made it to the commitlog mailing list as well, and you got no error :-)03:31
wolfspraulthanks a lot for your help in tracking this down03:31
wolfspraulcomplete server setup is documented here btw: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Server_setup03:32
qi-bot[commit] kyak: initial port of kbd utilities (thanks to wryun) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/bef387803:49
kyakno errors03:49
wolfspraulyes, and the commitlog mailing list works as well03:53
wolfspraulkyak: very important commit btw, thanks a lot!03:53
kyakwolfspraul: i did nothing, but thanks :)03:59
tuxbrainany one has news on the video playing on openwrt?09:50
tuxbrainI want to launch a Nanonote-Nanowar version with the content of the group including his last album and if posible include some videos clips09:51
viric_tuxbrain: is there any problem with video playing?10:03
tuxbrainviric_: I see it working with the jlime os but I have no new on openwrt, it's already working?10:04
wolfspraulwhat you see may only be mpeg4, I think ogg theora is too slow10:07
wolfspraulsimd acceleration instructions are not being used etc.10:07
tuxbrainwolfspraul: this guys wants to launch his new album on september, do you think if I make a call for devels in the list we can have some boost on this matter?10:10
wolfspraulwe need more pain! :-)10:10
tuxbrainMeanwhile I will create a wikipage about it, preparing a costumized gmenu, and adding the songs and letters10:11
tuxbrainhehehe :)10:11
zearbtw "Nanowar" is a great name coincidence ;)10:11
zearwould be a great promo for the NanoNote :D10:11
tuxbrainyes , that why I so exicet by the idea10:12
tuxbrainand the band is also involved, they will sendme the songs before they edit the album, they have just remixed it10:12
zearoh, so they're already aware of your project? GREAT! :D10:12
tuxbrainGatto (Eduardo) is also a great Free source adbocate10:13
zearany chance of them getting a nanonote so they can make photo session with it?10:13
tuxbrainsure :)10:13
zearbtw, where can i get their songs? I was looking for them before, but found only one song - the one they have a videoclip of10:14
tuxbrainI have to print the stickers to "costumize" a little bit the case, I will put the mockups on the wiki page10:14
tuxbrainthe worst one10:15
zearah, thank you very much :)10:15
tuxbrainthe must listen10:15
tuxbrainand the live album10:16
tuxbrainyou can find more info in his offical web page http://www.nanowar.it10:16
tuxbrainI have to put also a Parent advisory advice :)10:17
rafawolfspraul: do you think that mpeg1 coould be a problem as video codec?10:25
wolfsprauldon't know10:25
rafatuxbrain: ? you perhaps know as well about tha?10:26
rafawolfspraul: I ask because we were using that video format as, at least, one video codec useful10:27
tuxbrainall mpg codecs are in the same boat I guess10:27
wolfspraulnot sure, patents expire eventually10:27
wolfspraulbut the patent holders never educate anybody about those things10:27
rafawell, they often do not have much good education10:29
tuxbrainthink we are lucky http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2008/7/18/232618/31210:30
tuxbrainmpeg-1 + Layer 2 audio should be patent free10:31
tuxbrainnot layer 3 (mp3)10:32
rafatuxbrain: cool, because we were using just that .)10:33
rafampeg1 video+mp2 audio10:33
rafatuxbrain: (we were using= if we use the ffmpeg command line we suggested on wiki)10:35
tuxbrainreading a little bit deeper the article... I thing is better to stay save on Theora10:36
tuxbrainmpeg (whatever layer) is a nest of vipers,10:37
rafatuxbrain: aha, I do not know why I have not tried that yet.) do you know the proper ffmpeg command line to get that?10:39
tuxbrainto play a theora/ogg video? or to convert it?10:40
rafato convert10:50
tuxbrainok I will search for it , let me finish the wiki :)10:51
tuxbrainrafa: what I use to convert videos to Theora ogg is this http://v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora12:21
qi-bot[commit] David K├╝hling: Make Gforth's built-in assembler/disassembler work on non-mips architectures. http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/915bd1012:27
rafatuxbrain: thanks, let me check12:42
xiangfuthanks larsc .12:42
viric_Can I find a tarball of the usual qilb60 kernel?13:30
viric_the sources I mean13:31
viric_or patches over mainline13:31
viric_I mean where can I find :)13:32
viric_hm I can't connect to that, somehow.13:33
viric_I can't connect to anything. great.13:34
shevekIs anyone here with a Ben NanoNote with a serial port and a micro-sd card who is willing to test something for me?13:57
viric_larsc: what tag should I consider there the stablest? v2.6.34-rc7 ?14:01
shevekIf so, please set your serial port to raw at 9600 baud (stty -F $SERIAL raw 9600) and listen to it (cat $SERIAL), untar http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/bas/20100802-iris-sd.tar.gz into the first partition of the sd card (which must be fat), and use it to boot from (by holding 'S' while powering the Ben up).  Then please tell me what you see on the serial port.14:01
larscviric_: v2.6.3514:02
viric_larsc: it's a branch14:02
viric_larsc: it's jz-2.6.35 right?14:02
larscviric_: yes, thats what i meant, sorry14:02
wpwrakrafa:  so ... jlime, its slow uptake by the qi-hw community, the problems with debian, and why openwrt is obsolete :)14:02
viric_thank you14:03
rafawpwrak: what do you think about?14:03
wpwrakrafa: i must say that i find the idea of having yet another distro with yet another build system, such as jlime, isn't very appealing14:04
wpwrakrafa: on the other hand, you guys are doing a lot of work to make the thing run nicely on the ben, so there is valuable work there that shouldn't be lost14:04
rafadebian is the best choice if there were some lightweight package manager to use its repository. And If you could set to install just the binary of a package, or something like that. No the extra files useless to run the application. Also we would need some way to easily to build rootfs for Debian.14:05
wpwrakrafa: then there's debian, which apparently isn't used much in the qi-hw community either14:05
wpwrakrafa: i guess building a rootfs shouldn't be all that hard. unless they dependencies are really evil, you should be able to just install what you really need, no ?14:05
wpwrakrafa: e.g., i made that myrootfs based on the ipkgs for openmoko that can be as small as you want. of course, those ipkgs aren't fat to begin with14:06
rafaI see the "another build system" like this: use it just once. Build the whole repository just once and then upload. For that I think that OE is great because you can build the whole thing and it will build a huge repository. I do not like the idea to rebuild again and again.14:07
wpwrakrafa: i think there are two approaches to get lean packages: 1) you break them down into the essential and the non-essential parts and (in the small device case) only install the essentials, and 2) install the monster but then throw away anything you don't like14:08
wpwrak(build system) yes, but you still have to maintain the distro. that requires manpower that could probably be applied more usefully. i mean, while it's fun and you're full of energy, why not. but after a while, it will become a burden.14:09
rafaFor debian yes, we would need some easy way to build different rootfs to install. And a lighweight replacement for apt, which seems heavy for tiny devices, but at the same time, it should be the current debian repositories.14:10
wpwrakrafa: so when you start a new distro, you better have an exit strategy for yourself :) if there's only a small group of people, the chances of finding someone to take care of the unpleasant work decrease14:10
wpwrakrafa: (apt) yeah, i wonder what the issue there is. also, what's preventing opkg to process debian's packages ?14:11
wpwraks/to process/from processing/14:11
rafamaintain the distro: just build the whole thing (repository) once a year. I have not seen many users complaining because they want always the latest version of busybox or dillo.14:11
wpwrak(maintain) i don't mean the build time. you can do that in a central package repository anyway. but the effort to maintain the packages.14:13
rafaYour option 1) "split the packages into the essential and the non-essential parts" is a lot easier than crosscompiling/porting the sources to build a full repository14:14
rafabecause you have already the whole thing built. Just need to set which parts are essentials and which no14:14
wpwrak(split) true. the build system could even help you with the split, and warn you of things you haven't assigned to one of the sub-packages14:15
wpwraknow, what would the debian guys say if one suggested to them to split their fat packages into many lean ones ? :)14:16
wpwrakif getting an excessively long package list is a concern, an option could be to extend the packaging mechanism to hide the split inside the package14:17
rafawe like our approach in jlime (OE repository). We can build the whole thing easily, and it already has the different parts of the packages for tiny devices. Also the opkg thing. Our approach is in the middle of openwrt (where a lot of effort is being used to have a minimal decent stable repository and the full huge (proper for PC) Debian repository)14:17
wpwrake.g., instead of just apt-get install emacs-supersize-me, you could apt-get install emacs/base,examples,double-cream (or whatever the syntax)14:18
tuxbrainwpwrak: just for you info jlime exist a lot of time before than Ben NanoNote was already thinked, Ben is just another platform to run it :)14:18
wpwraktuxbrain: i know, but isn't the current main focus of jlime the ben ? jlime has a fairly small installed base, as i understand things14:19
rafawpwrak: yes, as tuxbrain says, when we were building the OE repositories for Hp jornadas, there was not SH3 binaries Debian repository14:20
wpwraktuxbrain: rafa's concern is that the qi-hw community doesn't seem to be very interested in jlime, although it's a much friendlier environment than, say, openwrt14:20
rafawpwrak: that is why that was really useful to keep. No other distributions had sh3 binaries14:20
wpwrakrafa: but sh3 is now in, say, debian ?14:21
shevektuxbrain: Could you test if my new version of iris can boot from sd?14:21
rafayes, they have now I think. At least sh414:21
wpwraktuxbrain: then there's debian, where you would have even more packages than in jlime, but nobody seems to use that either. instead, people are porting packages into openwrt, which is certainly a valient effort, but one has to wonder if it really makes sense14:22
tuxbrainrafa know what the problem is and why qi cannot embrace fully jlime, is our strict pattent free policy, but from this to asure that jlime is doesn't have our interest is by far not the same14:22
tuxbraindebian is slow and heavy14:23
tuxbrainshevek: Not right now, but I will try to do it some day of this week if you dont mind the delay14:23
shevektuxbrain: No problem.14:23
wpwraktuxbrain: i think the patent policy is a separate issue, and (technically) much simpler14:24
shevektuxbrain: Thanks14:24
rafaI think that debian would be perfect if we could split the packages as wpwrak suggested. And a proper lightweight package manager.14:24
wpwrakrafa: such as opkg :)14:25
tuxbrainmmm and how per example you do on debian to install x using kdrive instad of xorg when installing a x depending package?14:25
tuxbrainnot sarcams I really want to know :)14:26
rafatuxbrain: no, I do not think in qi , I mean the community. If we ask in our #jlime chat or forums or mailing list (it is not useful yet though) there is not feedback from any user from the community.14:26
wpwraktuxbrain: can debian packages provide a "feature" ? i.e., kdrive and xorg provide X, x-whatever depends on X.14:26
tuxbrainyou mean to update debian package sistem or this is already implemented?14:27
wpwraktuxbrain: (i don't know much about the debian package format, but i vaguely recally having seen such pseudo-packages in other formats)14:27
wpwraktuxbrain: i don't know :) if they don't have it, they really should. but i think they must have something like this already. just think of "kernel", "syslog", etc.14:28
wpwrakthere are lots of things where many different packages can provide the same functionality14:28
wpwrakthe thing that makes openwrt attractive may be that there's a more direct way to contribute changes. that's of course important, and it gives the downstream project more control14:32
tuxbrainrafa: I just think is matter of critical mass, it's normal than the most users are in qi-hardwere channels due ben is qi, and I think we also still a few, we have to grew even more , and in term of maths you are a subset of qi-users, that means even low amount of mass, other jlime users , I thing is just natural. Whatever, I'm really really happy than an OE distro is so brilliant on NanoNote thanks to people like you. For me Jlime is a key part of th14:33
tuxbraine whole thing. don't be dissapointed yet, we are on the beggining on the road :)14:33
wpwrakto achieve the same with debian, a qi-specific "buffer" or "overlay" could be created, where changes are rapidly integrated, and then - more slowly - propagated to upstream (or anything they don't like is kept at the overlay. if upstream really really hates it for a long time, there's probably something wrong with it anyway)14:34
wpwraki guess it all depends on how the jlime folks see their own work. if they get the impression they're wasting their time supporting a platform that ignores them, it would be better to do something about this, before they just go away frustrated14:36
tuxbrainI'm still thining OE, and OpenWrt where thinked to just device like ben so that's why they really fits on it and we feel this easyness when working with them on NanoNote, debian is general porpouse monster, and was at first intended to servers and then to desktop and some brave man had achieved to bringing it down to more little devices, but once you start to work with it it easyly expands itself and you have a full Nand more quick than a apt-get upd14:38
wpwrakwhat fills your nand ? the package meta-data, the downloaded packages, or the installed stuff ?14:39
wpwraktuxbrain: i'm very lazy, so i always look for a way to make small changes that add the most value, but let others do the bulk of the work :)14:41
wpwraktuxbrain: also, Kant tought us that you should do onto others what you crave for yourself. so i assume others like it if they can be lazy, too :)14:42
tuxbrainmeta-data is a big concern but the most is filled with unsued dependencies :)14:48
wpwraks/tought/taught/  # argh14:49
wpwrakso the dependency tree has problems. hmm. indeed, the sub-packages should have their own dependencies. e.g., if you install gnuplot but not gnuplot/x11, you don't need libgtk or whatever it uses14:51
tuxbrainregarding feeling ignored, is really a false sensation, me as distributor, an sharism as manufacturer are tied to not be able to promote a sistem that allows patented codecs to be part of the sistem, not for we don't like it, totally the contrary we are just amazed and pleased with jlime progress really, the only thing is that they have to promote by it self14:51
wpwraki think what's troubling rafa is more the lack of end user responses14:52
tuxbrainwell if it's for this, if you review the qi-hardware list the only ones proposing/discussing/participating are mainly developers and core stuff, there are some exeception but if you count we have selled 900 units, and there is not 900 users in the mailing list :) again, we are just a few, jlime is a subset of that few, patience and perseverance is the only medicine to the spirit in this situation15:02
rafatuxbrain: I think that we have just mplayer and some mp* decoder packages in our repositories. What about if we set video player just for ogg and remove libmad and other mp* decoder packages from repositories? Would it be useful for you? To promove jlime, or to put jlime in microSD as extra accessory for nns?15:03
rafaThere is not many stuff for patented codecs anyway.15:04
rafaSO that would not be a hard work to do.15:04
rafasome rm things :)15:04
tuxbrainwpwrak: also there where other projects involved in qi list than generates movement SACK ( a version of jlime will be cool as well) the Milkymist, and of course the philosophy of coplyleft hardware it self,15:05
wpwrak(900 units) i do indeed sometimes wonder where they all went ;-)15:05
wpwrakagreed on this being developer-heavy. maybe the time is just not quite ripe for jlime's hour of glory15:06
rafawpwrak: tuxbrain: BTW, we are preparing a jlime version for SAKC as well (professor is helping me, and I am helping him  ;) )15:06
tuxbrainrafa: that's interesting, did you mind if I check with wolfgang before to pronounce about it, my heart says a BIG YES but laws are totally unsensitive to my heart desires.15:08
tuxbrainrafa: that awesome really :)15:08
rafawpwrak: let me prepare the wikireader thing, perhaps that helps a bit more (as advertising haha)15:08
tuxbrainmust leave to soup :) see you later15:11
rafatuxbrain: I think that that would not be a big effort to do (remove the few annoy packages). we just would need to agree with kristoffer and other devs.15:11
rafacya man15:11
viricFor the nanonote, what -march=XXX you use in gcc?16:18
viricfor a mipsel compiler, it will be redundant, if I set abi=32, right?16:22
viricI can write nothing16:22
viriclarsc: can you advice to me a defconfig I could use for the system headers? Not to build the kernel...16:22
viriconly for "make install_headers"16:22
viricI'm about to choose any mips1 little endian16:23
viriclet's see what happens.16:25
viriclarsc: oh how great. Is that in any release?16:29
larscbut it's in the jz-2.6.34 tree at qi-hardware16:35
viriclarsc: for uboot, should I take that 1.1.6 from Ingenic there in git too?16:55
viriclarsc: how is the uboot upstream support for the nanonote?16:55
larscnon existent16:57
larscfor uboot you should take plain upstream uboot plus the patches in the openwrt-xburst tree at qi-hardware16:58
viricah, isn't 1.1.6 that used in the nanoboot?16:58
larsci don't think that it is worth it16:58
larscwe use 2009.1116:58
viriclarsc: 'master' or 'xburst' branch there?16:58
viricah, quite good16:58
viricuboot-xburst as package?17:01
viric(in the openwrt-xburst tree)17:01
viricI see it's over 2010.6 the patchset17:06
viricI'm not any good reading the openwrt makefiles... but that's my guess17:06
larschm, it says 2009.6 in my tree. but on the other hand i'm using openwrt not openwrt-xburst17:09
viricdoes the nanonote have fpu?17:14
viricahhh. softfp the17:15
viricin gcc17:15
viriclarsc: I can't find any manual for the xburst cpu in the ingenic website...17:20
larsci'm not sure if there is one17:25
viricbut those simd instructions should be somewhere documented17:25
viric(I can't read any chinese)17:25
viricI'm chinese-disabled :)17:26
larscsomebody took the time and documented them on a wiki page somewhere17:27
larscgive me a moment17:27
viricthis contains info17:27
wpwrakwolfspraul: heya ! so ... who owns USB vendor ID 0x20b7 ? Sharism ? Qi-HW ? Wolfgang ? The Grinch ? :)18:02
wolfspraulqi hardware18:15
wpwrakwolfspraul: thanks !18:23
viriclarsc: thank you ver much18:31
viriclarsc: I'm about to try my first cross build thing for the nanonote18:31
larscgood luck :)18:34
virichmm bad :)18:36
viricoh, it worked finally! :)18:39
viricthe 'rogue' game.18:42
rafaxiangfu: hey, you there?22:14
xiangfurafa, yes22:14
rafaxiangfu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPIZGN2sDds22:14
rafaxiangfu: that is a first gui try for a wikireader that we22:14
rafaare working on22:15
rafaxiangfu: and I wanted to share with you the test ;)22:15
xiangfurafa, cool.22:19
kristianpaulyes rafa is making a great work on that}22:37
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