#qi-hardware IRC log for Tuesday, 2010-06-08

DocScrutinizerhmm yeah, 256MB ram + 768 swap here :-)00:00
DocScrutinizermaybe for NN opkg is the better solution00:00
DocScrutinizerif someone killed all the bugs meanwhile ;-)00:01
rafa_DocScrutinizer: we have used opkg with 16MB of ram in HP Jornadas.. it is not nice yet, but it works at least00:01
DocScrutinizerwell, as long as it's not yast/red-carpet :-P00:03
DocScrutinizerwith mono XP00:03
DocScrutinizerthat shit easily brought machines with 512mb ram and 1G swap to a grinding halt00:04
DocScrutinizerI means, when ps shows me *.exe processes - on a unix machine - LOL00:06
DocScrutinizerbut I think they fixed it some 3 years ago00:07
DocScrutinizereven before SuSE became OpenSuse00:08
Action: gbraad in ¬ !00:48
wolfspraulgbraad: welcome00:55
wolfspraulin my dreamy eyes, you are Mr. FPGA and Mr. Fedora!00:55
wolfspraulgbraad: I think one time you said somewhere you looked at Elphel but found the CPU too exotic?00:58
wolfspraulso when I got one and built the toolchain and rootfs from scratch I was surprised how smooth it was00:58
wolfsprauljust a few hours, all was done00:58
wolfspraulI expected worse from your comment. Did you run into big problems back then?00:58
gbraadmostly experience from colleagues. they weren't so satisifed by it00:59
wolfsprauldo you remember details?00:59
wolfspraulwhich part caused the dissatisfaction?00:59
gbraadit must have been the general feel to them as they had done more work on ARM before (as they joined our team for the software porting)01:00
wolfspraulhmm, OK01:01
wolfspraulwe will try to get Elphel 353 supported in OpenWrt01:01
gbraadi am curious about this :)01:01
gbraadtonight at the blug they have a talk about openwrt01:01
gbraadI will attend the meeting as I have a meeting with someone; loongson will offer me hardware for the Fedora MIPS port ;-)01:03
wolfspraulI am thinking about a mobile Elphel, battery+spartan-6+cmos sensor, no CPU01:05
gbraadso everything in the spartan; very flexible01:07
Action: gbraad afk01:07
wolfspraulwant to focus the time on free tech, much more fun01:07
gbraadit is. but for example getting fedora on the Milkymist? I consider it not possible yet... ;-)01:11
gbraadtargetting mips is an easy step to a larger market of cheap chinese netbooks and maybe workstations01:12
gbraadi still imagine a OLPC sugar running an a Nanonote+01:13
Action: gbraad noticed Jon was also in town01:14
kyakwolfspraul: i know this might be an unappropriate question or even wrong in terms of copyleft paradigma, but does Qi-hardware actually earn money? Was your comment about employees coming at morning with their own money just a turn of speech or a joke? :)01:18
wolfspraulhe he01:19
wolfspraulwhy unappropriate?01:19
wolfspraulno definitely nobody makes money right now, same is true for distributors01:19
kyakasking other people about money is unappropriate :)01:19
wolfspraulbut that's OK, no problem here we knew this before01:19
wolfsprauldepends on the culture01:19
wolfspraulhugely different between cultures01:19
wolfspraulsince I am so global nowadays whatever it is, I go with the flow01:20
kyakso right now this is a bare enthusiam?01:20
wolfspraulno I think it's a real business opportunity01:20
kyakhow do you see it?01:20
wolfspraulcopyleft hardware01:20
kyakbut it's not a way to earn money, is it?01:21
wolfspraulwhy not?01:21
kyakyou give it away for free?01:21
kyakfor others to copy01:21
wolfspraulthe knowledge, yes for sure01:21
kyaki'll ask it in a different way: to earn money, you need to sell something. What are you going to sell?01:22
wolfspraulBen NanoNote, 99 USD01:22
wolfspraulwe will try to drive the price down, and software (usability) up01:22
kyakok, i was thinking of NN and it's price (which is already quite low) as a means to compensate for some current expenses.. I thought there was something bigger :)01:25
kyakBen NN is a thing for enthusiasts, it will never sell like iPad01:26
wolfspraulenthusiasts? no I think we can make it useful to everybody01:29
kyakalso, the more compnies will use your copyleft hardware, the less users will buy it from you?01:29
wolfspraulI doubt that. If another company would join (which would be the awesomeost thing that could happen), then we would both advance the state of technology01:30
kyakit would be nice to make it useful for everyone, but right now NN is for those who are let's say "technically educated"01:31
wolfspraulyes but let's make it easier and easier. first for ourselves, then for everybody.01:31
kyaki can't disagree with that! :)01:32
kyakactually, i;m quite impressed with people coming here01:32
kyakand their level of expertise01:32
kyakespecially when they start talking about FPGA :)01:33
wolfspraulthe progress in the first year of NanoNote was amazing01:33
wolfspraulif we can continue at the same rate in the second year things will be pretty interesting01:33
wolfspraulbut anyway, meanwhile we enjoy the path01:33
kyakhow long did it take from the start of development to the first production sample?01:34
wolfspraulI like my NanoNote, and the idea of slowly using it more and more.01:34
wolfspraulhmm, 'production sample' don't know exactly what you mean01:34
wolfspraulwe worked with a manufacturer and opened up an existing device01:34
wolfspraulit took us 9 months until we actually started selling01:35
wolfspraulfrom 0 to Ben NanoNote01:35
wolfspraulnow let's see how long it takes us to Ya, I think it's at least another 6 months out01:35
wolfspraulwe need to sell some more Ben01:35
kyakthat's fast.. what it used to be before? you said existing device01:35
wolfspraulwhich can only work, as you noticed, if we can make software and content more valuable01:35
wolfspraulelectronic dictionary01:36
kyaklocalization (that's what i'm afraid of most when i get my NN) - specifically, cyrillic input01:37
kyakhave no idea right now how it will work in openwrt :)01:38
freespacewhat will the ya have?01:42
wolfspraulkyak: yes, great, we should work on that01:42
freespacethe main thing holding me back from a ben nanonote is lack of gpio personally01:42
freespaceif i bought one i won't kno what to do with it01:42
wolfspraulkyak: we have a lot of customers in Japan, and I think they are using Japanese console fonts just fine01:42
wolfspraulbut we need to bring more of that into openwrt, I agree01:42
wolfspraulso I think we are trying to get fbterm into openwrt, for example01:43
wolfspraulI don't know all details of all hacking activities, you would need to look into the openwrt sources yourself01:43
wolfspraulbut I am definitely very very interested to get good cyrillic support01:43
wolfspraulout of the box01:43
wolfspraulfreespace: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Ya_NanoNote_Specs01:45
wolfspraulthat's all very speculative, but we started working on 'next-gen' features last year and got a lot of feedback01:45
wolfspraulit's all about Ben though this year01:45
wolfspraulthere are literally endless little things we can improve in Ben software01:45
wolfsprauland this will all carry forward to Ya, so it's time well spent while we also make the Ben more useful01:46
freespaceyep :)01:49
freespaceah, i see you have ardunio in there, excellent01:51
kyaki liked the Ya specs01:51
freespacea usb host would be sufficient, then we can use bus pirate with it01:51
freespaceand it would be an awesome mini debugging tool01:52
kyakwhy there is no bluetooth though?01:52
freespaceeasy add on01:52
freespaceif we get usb host, bt dongles are dime-a-dozen01:52
kyakyou're right01:52
wolfspraulfreespace: yes definitely, we are all on the same page01:57
wolfspraulUSB host, more memory, some RF connectivity01:58
wolfspraulbut like I said, whatever we improve in Ben software now, will all carry forward01:58
wolfsprauljust look at all the work going on right now, it's excellent01:58
freespaceso, the ben NN has no usb host, except on the developer board?01:58
wolfspraulkernel upstream effort, so mcuh work in the openwrt distro01:58
wolfsprauljlime, deian01:58
wolfspraulmaybe with gbraad's help we can even start a fedora effort (biggest problem seems to be 32 MB ram)01:59
wolfspraulfreespace: correct01:59
wolfspraullittle things like better console fonts, better localization options (cyrillic was just mentioned, japanese, chinese, etc)01:59
wolfspraulthere are endless things we can improve, and are currently working on, with a happy state of mind :-)02:00
wolfspraulI use my Ben only for note-taking right now.02:00
wolfspraulI could use it as a music player too, maybe that's next. and alarm clock.02:00
wolfspraulvery simple things02:00
wolfsprauldictionary and wikipedia would also be cool for me, but not there yet02:01
freespaceactually, i might buy a NN and do that02:01
freespacei really like the "repository of knowledge" idea02:01
freespacelike hitch hiker's guide to the universe02:01
freespaceand modify it to run off solar panels02:01
freespaceor at least charge off one02:01
freespaceand give it away to remote communities02:02
freespacei like that idea, where is my CC02:02
wolfspraulfreespace: yes that would be awesome02:03
wolfspraulthere are several offline wikipedia efforts but they all need help02:03
wolfspraulone is www.openzim.org02:03
freespacenice, saves me googling02:03
wolfspraulothers work with the .tar.bz2 dumps02:04
wolfspraul https://launchpad.net/wikipediadumpreader02:04
wolfspraulyes, it saves you googling, but...02:04
wolfspraulmany people have already looked into this, it's a lot of work to get to work really well02:04
freespacei will do my research :)02:05
wolfspraulso for the time being we are improving the fundamentals of the kernel/distribution/OS02:05
wolfspraulpersonally I believe in the openzim effort for a long time, but then I kind of lost hope there because the Wikimedia Foundation doesn't really seem to be behind it02:05
wolfspraulso I will try to .tar.bz2 based text readers next02:06
wolfspraulat least those dumps are regularly created for all wikimedia wikis, which is a huge chunk of work already done02:06
wolfspraulsome people looked into those readers recently, found some inefficiencies that would probably need to be improved before they would run well on a NanoNote02:06
wolfspraulbut anyway, I don't believe something like this will just fall from the sky one day. it's a lot of pieces that need to move in place.02:07
freespaceyep, i understand02:07
wolfspraultheoretically the NanoNote could be an awesome offline reader, with color TFT, even spoken Wikipedia (it has a speaker)02:07
wolfspraulbut that's just theory02:07
wolfspraulfreespace: there was a good mail about this recently on our list, trying to find it...02:12
freespacethanks wolfspraul :)02:14
wolfspraulfreespace: http://en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2010-May/000703.html02:16
freespacenice, thanks!02:17
freespaceah, i see02:18
freespacethank you wolfspraul :)02:20
wolfspraulyeah, well. if you would buy one, and hack on this, it would be ... don't know.02:20
freespacethat is the plan :)02:21
freespaceit is always fun working with limited resources :)02:22
freespacemakes one more ... creative in the problem solving02:22
freespacewhich distributor is "preferred" for nanonote purchase?02:23
wolfspraulwhere do you live?02:23
wolfspraulbuy directly from sharism.cc, the warehouse and fulfillment is in Hong Kong02:23
freespacenod, awesome02:23
freespacerather like all the electronics shops in hk02:24
wolfspraulwe have some quite good and active guys in Australia, I think Mark Adrian Bell is there for example02:24
freespaceseeedstudio is another .hk shop i am quite fond of02:24
freespacei will keep that name in mind02:25
freespacemaybe he will be coming to pycon in sydney in a few wks' time02:25
wolfspraulyou can announce that you are going there on the developer list02:25
wolfspraulor I can try to connect some of our Australian users, just need to be careful about privacy and spamming02:25
freespacea most excellent idea02:25
wolfspraulso if they ordered, and didn't check the 'subscribe to announcements' button, I will not contact them02:26
wolfspraulbut other than that sure, always like to help connect people02:26
wolfspraulyeah we already don't keep any credit card data on our servers02:26
wolfsprauland you can buy without creating an account02:27
freespacepet hate: make an account to purchase02:27
wolfspraulmaybe we should also delete data of customers who don't want to be talked to after 30 days or so02:27
freespacei never understood why they want to put more barriers between my money and their account02:27
wolfspraulI totally hate all these tricky things to drill into people's minds.02:27
wolfspraulSo that they always remember the company.02:27
freespacein a bad way!02:28
wolfspraulzedstar: hi there02:32
wolfspraulour old Nepal thing just came to my mind again02:32
wolfspraulany news there? we are working on some localization improvements, Japanese, Chinese, someone just mentioned Cyrillic02:32
zedstarwolfspraul hi....that demo was accepted.....also got a small amount of money for a small pilot study..02:35
zedstarwolfspraul now trying to see if funding to develop some SDL style apps like the pdf search engine02:36
zedstarwolfspraul re: nepal well sujan got accepted to some 2 week programme in india which is funded/hosted by microsoft so ive told him to make some useful connections02:38
wolfspraulwhat does this mean practically? how can we make the Ben NanoNote more useful for the Nepali users you are thinking about?02:38
wolfspraulis there anything practical we can do?02:39
wolfspraullike some fonts, some particular software02:39
zedstarwolfspraul personally i think the launcher side of things would be useful to improve......with a core set up apps like pdf view, search, wiki reading etc02:41
wolfspraulnothing Nepal specific then right now. keep me posted because those are requirements I wouldn't come up with myself.02:43
zedstarwolfspraul sure. does not have to be focused only on nepal....have also contact now with some people that did a project in kenya also02:44
zedstarwolfspraul i will have some more time soon as term finishing up....have some personal projects with the ben then will start work on the pdf search engine02:46
wolfspraulwhich distribution do you work on? openwrt?02:49
zedstarwolfspraul openwrt as i put a little bit of effort in to learn having used openembedded before02:50
zedstarwolfspraul basically anything that helps builds the dependencies....not such a fan of a standard alone toolchain02:51
zedstarstand alone even02:53
Action: zedstar just woke up02:53
tuxbrain_awaywolfspraul: have read the intentions (I also know long term) on the work on the elphel cam, can I suggest to add to the specs the 1039 card features? maybe changing CF by SD, and what was the intention? still targeting to industrial alike appliances or you have in mind to turn it a little bit general porpouse handy cam?05:46
wolfspraultuxbrain_away: yeah, very long term :-)05:54
wolfspraulI am just thinking05:54
wolfspraulintention is cheaper, focus on free technology05:54
wolfspraulthose are the 2 main things I am thinking about05:54
emdetetuxbrain_away: have you seen the vid? :D05:58
tuxbrain_awayI guess integrating the connectors and then using fpga to make the "virtual chips" to control them (ala milkymist style)  should not increase much the price05:58
tuxbrain_awayyeah emdete :) way to go the "Hello world" of any arduino haker blinking led !!!05:59
tuxbrain_awayjust one step beyond of course05:59
wolfspraultuxbrain: exactly it's along those lines06:01
tuxbrainthanks to milkymist I think we have the usb, ethernet, sd, and serial also there, so only the SATA interface should be worked on06:02
wolfspraulwhich vid are you guys talking about?06:02
wolfspraulwell, if all of those things would work stable or at all, which they don't06:02
wolfspraulbut with Milkymist we have no more excuse06:02
wolfspraulso worst case if nobody helps we will do it ourselves line by line. but I am hoping we can count on some support, so far seems to be quite good...06:02
tuxbrainheheheh wolfgang first steps of emdete with the Arduino board06:03
wolfsprauloh nice06:03
tuxbraina bunch of led blinking in secuence , "artistically" attached directly to the board06:04
tuxbrainhope one day is the SACK board on what I do the demos :P06:06
Action: tuxbrain knows is more up to him than anything else06:08
tuxbrainemdete: replace the yellow led with some flat red ones on line and you can tune up your car as the knight rider :P06:10
tuxbrainon line-> inline06:11
emdetetuxbrain: that was the idea, yes! :D :D06:41
emdetetuxbrain: so next i will do a serial protocol to talk to pyneod :)06:48
methrilhi all!!06:48
methriltuxbrain: allways with crazy ideas06:49
methrilwolfspraul: i own you at least two emails06:50
methrilgoing to work (bbl as methril_work)06:51
wolfspraulmethril: you only owe me your happiness and good spirits. no worries I know you are out there and we are committed...06:52
wolfspraulmaybe catch you later...06:52
methril_worki´m back07:21
methril_workwolfspraul: i´ve news about bringing nice prototype gadgets07:21
wolfspraulah nice07:28
wolfspraulabout the Elphel camera we talked recently, I already sent it to mirko07:31
wolfspraulhe was quite excited about it and will try to get OpenWrt to support it, so let's first see how that works out07:31
methril_workwolfspraul: oh!! what a pitty!! i was also excited but the bureaucracy and taxe rates get me sad07:40
methril_workwolfspraul: there are some nice projects as SAKC and Milkymist ;)07:40
wolfspraulmethril_work: no worries this is not lost07:41
wolfspraulnot at all07:41
wolfspraulmethril_work: with all those things moving right now, I suggest we give David and mirko some time and see what happens07:42
wolfspraulI still have a 3rd one I can give to you, but I wanted to start using it myself to record videos07:42
wolfspraulthen we can either send one to you, or get a 4th one :-)07:42
wolfspraulor produce our own, even better :-)07:43
wolfspraulwe'll see07:43
wolfspraulmethril_work: these projects all connect together, and we will try to generate as much cross-support as possible from them07:43
wolfspraulso what are your news?07:43
rafahello, which is the max size for a Linux kernel in NAND?07:44
methril_workmy news are that the products could be sent as Engineering Samples07:45
methril_workand theys should pass without all the taxes07:46
methril_workwithout applying all the taxes07:46
methril_workhere we have import taxes. transistion between states taxes and state taxes07:46
methril_workthe simplest way is some of you goes to LinuxCon Brazil or FISL and bring one toy07:47
rafaxiangfu: Hey, hello. I have a short question for you :) : Do you know which is the max size (possible) for a Linux kernel in NAND?07:51
methril_workrafa: i don`t thing there is a NAND size limit for kernel07:52
rafayeah, but perhaps boot loader has some limits that it can manage perhaps?07:53
rafamethril_work: I ask because I tried to put a kernel file with a little initramfs inside, but boot loader was not able to boot it07:54
methril_workyou need to get a compressed kernel or uncompressed one07:55
methril_worku-boot copies  the kernel from NAND to RAM and uncompress it07:55
methril_workthe recent u-boot supports lzma bz2 bzip ....07:55
methril_workyou must load the kernel first and later execute the initramfs07:56
rafamethril_work: I can build/boot kernel without initramfs.. but when I build a kernel with a initramfs inside it stucks .. with bad data crc07:57
rafaso I was guessing that bootloader was not able to manage that bigger one. But perhaps I am wrong07:57
methril_workbut i think that u-boot only supports ramdisk image07:58
methril_workyou have to pass the initramfs as init command08:00
rafammh.. ? I just enable "Initial RAM filesystem and RAM disk". Then I specify an "Initramfs source file"08:02
rafakernel uses that initramfs if it is there.. I do not need to specify an init kernel command.. or do you mean some init bootloader command?08:03
methril_workbut you need to copy the initramfs to RAM and set the initramfs pointer to the memory location08:04
rafamethril_work: is not the kernel doing that?08:04
methril_workin x86 yes. in other archs no08:05
methril_worki never try it in MIPS08:05
methril_workbut i know is working in some ARM archs08:05
rafawait.. when you specify a "Initramfs source file" you put inside the kernel the initramfs. It knows about it and it uses it. BUt perhaps nobody in the earth has tried that before? :) (in mips)08:06
rafaI have tried in ARM and SH archs08:06
rafax86 of course08:06
rafaif the kernel knows about RAM it just does the work08:06
rafathe initramfs is inside the kernel, it is not a special file outside..08:07
methril_workmaybe you need to take a look the RAM address and add a aditional boot command to u-boot08:07
rafamethril_work: the initramfs is part of the kernel file.. why would we like to add some additional boot command to u-boot?08:08
rafayou mean that uboot should says something to the kernel about RAM that it has not said before?08:08
methril_workif it´s embedded into the kernel maybe you are missing some info on the kernel to boot it properly08:09
methril_workor you get out of RAM (usually the kernel copies and decompress at the last memory address)08:09
methril_worki don´t know exactly the NN implementation08:10
rafaI know that when you embedded into the kernel the kernel already knows about it when building.. but I do not know what is happening.. the problem is before the kernel starts to boot..08:10
wolfspraulrafa: different question - does JLiMe support patented codecs like MP3, MPEG4, H.264?08:11
rafafor uboot it should be the same I guessed, like any other kernel, but bigger08:11
wolfspraulxiangfu is the u-boot and initramfs expert, too bad he's not in the channel right now08:12
methril_workand you specify that bigger size to u-boot?08:12
methril_worki could not access to NN right now08:12
methril_workbut i take a look tonight08:12
rafawolfspraul: we have madplay which knows how to play mp3. Other formats no IIRC. We have mplayer (with those craps codecs) but as extra package..08:13
wolfspraulok but in general in the JLiMe project you don't care to disable/configure out patented stuff?08:13
wolfspraulsounds like if you have madplay by default, and the video codecs probably in the package repository08:14
rafamethril_work: I think that I can not specify options to uboot. Well, we can re build it with more options perhaps :)08:14
methril_worknamesake. sorry that i could not give you more help08:14
methril_workyou could through serial line08:14
wolfspraulrafa: there is no problem with that (no patent policy at JLiMe), but it means that we need to keep the Qi copyleft hardware wiki & server resources and JLiMe separate08:14
rafawolfspraul: yes, we have not had care about to disable/configure out patented stuff. BUt that is because nobody started to talk about, which we should08:15
Action: methril_work remembers have to take a look to a sw taht access the u-boot params in linux systems08:15
wolfspraulyeah but that's a separate discussion and a clean IP boundary is good anyway08:15
wolfspraulI will write an email with our latest thoughts on the Qi patent policy to the list08:15
wolfspraulthe goal is to protect everybody's freedoms, no worries we will get this right eventually08:16
methril_worktime to back to work08:16
rafawolfspraul: sure, /about to keep the Qi copyleft resources separate)..08:16
wolfspraulthe openwrt project introduced the patented flag and helped us generate an image and package repository that can be configured to a state that the hardware won't infringe on patents08:16
wolfspraulwhich is important for the people that are touching (selling) the hardware in certain countries08:17
wolfspraulso we can always bundle the openwrt software (with those flags in place) with the hardware08:17
wolfsprauland other software needs to have their own home, but that shouldn't be a big problem08:17
methril_workcrappy lincense patents abuse08:17
wolfspraulI just hope the fact that you can recompile openwrt from source to include them back in, or get binary packages from upstream (though on links that are not documented/promoted by Qi) will not become a problem08:18
wolfsprauleventually we have to ship the hardware just as some pieces of dead plastic to avoid the patent nonsense :-)08:18
rafawolfspraul: I think that we (jlime) should not patented stuff. But we have not talked about never IIRC. It is there just because the bazaar Jlime story08:19
wolfspraulthe last legal advice we got said that as long as the out-of-the box image can't do it, and it's not installable via mechanisms setup by the manufacturer, we should be safe08:19
wolfspraulno problem, no stress08:19
wolfspraulwe first need to get this right for copyleft hardware and especially the copyleft hardware distributors in patent-affected countries08:19
rafaI think that we (jlime) should not have patented*...08:20
wolfspraulok but that's your decision08:20
wolfsprauland a lot of people may feel why should 80% of the world suffer for a stupid system that the top 20% of the world has setup08:21
wolfspraulI like openwrt's solution of having a flag08:21
wolfspraulI hope that allows us (the manufacturer) to separate ourselves enough from patented codecs so that we don't infringe on those patents08:21
wolfspraulto the best of my knowledge it does08:21
rafawolfspraul: well, we have no discussed that before, so there is not decision there, it is just our bazaar story08:22
xiangfurafa: Hi. don't know that.08:23
rafaxiangfu: hey, okey, no problem. I will check further and I will try to realize that using tests :)08:24
xiangfurafa: ok :)08:24
rafawolfspraul: it will be great if you write about Qi thoughts/decisions about patented stuff, so others (like Jlime) can think a bit about :)08:26
rafawolfspraul: that is not an easy topic to talk, because you need to know it a lot08:26
rafawolfspraul: what about other distros?.. should we remove all the debian links from our web sites? (I am talking about mp3 decoder for example).. All the main distributions have mp3 players and decoders/encoders..08:48
wolfspraulrafa: the point is to keep the hardware and software separate08:54
wolfspraulor rather to only bundle hardware with software that will not make the combination infringe on someone's patents08:54
wolfspraulso yes, we will move the Debian stuff from the Qi wiki into a Debian on NanoNote blog that is separate08:54
wolfspraulfor JLiMe this is all easy because JLiMe always has been a pretty clearly separated project08:55
wolfspraulso the people that are distributing copyleft hardware can say "we have nothing to do with JLiMe" and can do so in a legally correct way08:55
rafathat sounds good, perhaps we should write on wiki a bit about "why it is a good thing to separate differnt kind of stuff")08:57
qwebirc79935Greetings, I'm looking for expertise advice about systems engineering. I want to build a computer from scratch. I've got Linux from Scratch for the software aspect, but I've not been able to find a satisfactory resource for the hardware equivalent.08:59
qwebirc79935\nick IDMclean08:59
wolfspraulIDMclean: hey welcome!09:00
wolfspraulnow it gets interesting - how do you want to define 'from scratch' in hardware?///09:00
wolfspraulthere are wildly different approaches here, and many many projects09:00
wolfspraulI'm a big believer in the upcoming Milkymist One, that's definitely a 'computer', but a loooot of work09:01
IDMcleanwolfspraul, the aim of my endeavor is to understand how the system works at the machine level. I've got the abstract theories regarding circuits mediating logical operations and such. I kinda understand how to put boards together, and I can assemble a computer fully from motheboard-daughterboard components. I want to bridge the gap between that and high level programming.09:03
wolfspraulmany years ago I used to build my own computers09:03
wolfspraulback then that meant chosing a mainboard, maybe a CPU09:04
wolfspraulthen put some memory inside, and ISA cards, later PCI09:04
wolfspraulI think what 'building a computer' meant has changed dramatically over the last 30 years09:04
wolfspraulin mobile/embedded it's becoming hard again, everything is integrated by processes that require very high-end equipment09:05
wolfspraulsoldering a large BGA chip onto a board is not like plugging a PCI card into your mainboard09:05
wolfsprauland I doubt anybody wants to grow their own silicon and cut slices from it for photolithography :-)09:05
IDMcleanNot yet anyway.09:06
wolfspraulwell to give you a serious answer to your question, one would know a lot of parameters on your end09:06
wolfspraulhow much time and money you want to spend09:06
wolfspraulwhat you plan to get out of it in the long run09:06
wolfspraulfor notebooks the concept of 'build my own' already barely exists09:07
wolfspraulmaybe some mini-PCI cards, some ram09:07
wolfspraulfor smartphones? not at all09:07
wolfspraulso I don't really know what to tell you09:07
wolfspraulthe Ben NanoNote is a very integrated, mass-produced little pocket computer09:07
wolfspraulI don't think you can learn what you are looking for from it.09:07
IDMcleanI'm studying mechatronic engineering with an emphasis in artificial intelligence, life, simulation, and game design.09:08
Ornotermeswolfspraul: i talked to a guy in a forum some time ago that wanted to make his own micro-sd card09:08
arctanxIDMclean: If you want to run Linux you're naturally going to have to have an architecture supported by Linux -- unless you have a lot of free time, that's going to amount to at least buying an off-the-shelf CPU. You'll have to work out where to draw the line though09:09
IDMcleanIdeally, I would like to build a box to experiment with building living operating systems.09:09
IDMcleanIdeally, I want FOSS.09:09
IDMcleanA good descriptor of what I want is a laboratory in a box. If I can peel open all the hardware and software, it would be ideal. I'm going to build a custom linux distribution on it, so I've already started thinking about what kind of constraints I'm going to follow regarding manufacturers.09:11
IDMcleanI'd like to experiment with using parallel and non-von Neumann architectures.09:12
wolfspraulfor me it sounds like you need to introduce a few more real-life constraints09:13
wolfspraulcheck out Milkymist One09:13
OrnotermesIDMclean: there is some really custom CPUs out there, but i don't think they are capable of running Linux09:13
arctanxIDMclean: What you're talking about would probably require writing half a compiler and hacking a lot of Linux code09:14
IDMcleanThat's part of the plan09:15
arctanxWriting your own OS for whatever CPU you build is certainly possible. Just a lot of work to make it more than a toy09:15
OrnotermesIDMclean: a really good example would be Magic-1 (runs a port of Minix 2)-> http://www.homebrewcpu.com/09:16
lars_linux from scratch won't help you to make linux support your platform09:16
IDMcleanI'm going to take the time and effort to systematically go through the tutorials they provide.09:16
arctanxLFS is basically a guide for if you have a bog-standard x86 PC which is already running a host linux system with a compiler09:17
IDMcleanOrnotermes, I am aware of the fact. This is most certainly a long term project. I want to learn to write drivers.09:17
wolfspraulIDMclean: maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't FPGAs give you the tools to do just what you want?09:18
wolfspraulparallellism etc, your own CPU?09:18
wolfspraulI still think you should also check out Milkymist One, or in fact the Milkymist project09:18
wolfspraulbut maybe I'm not understanding exactly what the goal is...09:19
IDMcleanwolfspraul, at the moment the goal is to poll experts about what is and is not possible or feasible.09:19
nebajothwhat's the topic?09:20
IDMcleanI want to build a computer from scratch.09:20
nebajothgood lord09:20
nebajothcopylefted, I assume?09:20
arctanxIDMclean: On an unrelated note, if you want to learn to write drivers, check out http://lwn.net/Kernel/LDD3/ (free PDF) or "Essential Linux Device Drivers" by Venkateswaran. I can recommend both09:20
IDMcleanThank you.09:20
arctanxwell, not unrelated09:20
arctanxyou asked about drivers. but it won't help you build a computer09:21
Action: arctanx is wearing out C-r looking at the fedex page... a nanonote in China isn't much use09:25
IDMcleanThe purpose of attempting this is to learn computer engineering from the bottom up and theoretical computer science from the top down. Mainly, I'm looking for learning resources to better understand how and what my motherboard and it's component parts are doing.09:25
IDMcleanSo what would I need beyond LFS to get linux working with a custom board?09:27
wolfspraulIDMclean: in Milkymist One you have it all in free source form09:27
wolfspraulthe CPU, the compiler/toolchain, the realtime or Linux kernel, and everything above09:27
wolfspraulI wouldn't know how more to build a computer 'from scratch' than that09:28
wolfsprauldepending on your interests, you could modify the (soft)-CPU, or write an entirely new (soft)-CPU09:28
arctanxIDMclean: With a standard architecture (ARM, MIPS) or your own design?09:28
wolfspraulof course if you modify the lowest level, the CPU, then everything above needs to go along, toolchain, kernel, etc.09:28
wolfspraulbut if you don't align this well with others, even 5 lifetimes won't be enough to ever get your computer to do anything useful09:29
wolfspraulI think time is another thing you should factor in. When do you want to be finished?09:29
IDMcleanCirca ten years.09:30
OrnotermesIDMclean: have you been fooling around with off shelf microcontrollers?09:31
wolfspraulmy best bet is still Milkymist, especially for a 10-year project :-)09:33
wolfspraulbut that's selfish, I like Milkymist09:33
wolfspraulyou should seriously think carefully before you invest 10 years of your time (which is I guess what you are doing...)09:34
IDMcleanThat's part of this process, I'm looking for where to start. I've been told to look into circuit design before. I looked, found it unsatisfactory because it didn't link with my programming experience. I'm less interested with the electrical engineering.09:34
wolfspraula project like Milkymist allows you to really dive deep into parallelism, yet stay (mostly) in a software world09:35
IDMcleanI'm willing to learn it as I go to end up with a minimalistic computer that meets my specifications.09:35
wolfspraulany FPGA project allows you this09:35
wolfspraulso let's just say "fpga computer"09:35
wolfsprauldoesn't need to be Milkymist, that's just one instance09:35
IDMcleanI'm confortable with that.09:36
kristianpaulmilkymist is an fpga computer, at least i plan use the MM1 as one09:36
kristianpaulor webserver or something09:36
OrnotermesIDMclean: if you have any plans to make your own CPU you should learn some assembler(since that is a part of what your compilers would use) and how a CPU executes the code and work with memory and registers09:37
kristianpaulbtw i learning that with the Milkymist09:37
arctanxIDMclean: One possibility, if you're keen on linux and the programming angle, is to study the kernel code thoroughly. If you ever want to run it on custom hardware you'll have to be intimately familiar with it anyway, and if you understand it you'll have a really good idea of how the hardware fits in with all the high level software09:38
IDMcleanI'm on that currently. I'll be taking assembly soon, and I'm in the thick of studying architectures, automata theory, and the likes.09:38
IDMcleanarctanx, any recommendations on learning resources for kernels?09:39
arctanxNot really. That's a work-in-progress for me, and my conclusion is that it moves so damn fast that you just have to make do with things like that LDD3 book and try not to drown in all the code09:39
arctanxand changing APIs09:40
arctanxlower-level stuff, like how it boots on a particular class of processor, should be relatively stable though09:40
IDMcleanThe project I have in mind right now involves putting a variation of a genetic algorithm in control of automatically developing an OS. The working name I have for it is LifeOS. The idea is to make an OS for the machine's use that meets the criterion for life.09:42
IDMcleanIn order for me to adequately design the algorithm for such a thing, I need to know what the machine can do, so I can specify the genomic representation of the OS to match the interface (I/O, language, networking) of the computer.09:45
IDMcleanAny idea where I would look to learn about BIOS design? Or would that be covered by LDD3?09:47
kristianpauluboot or milkymist bios could help09:50
kristianpaulpmon is other bios09:50
kristianpaulthats other discussion09:50
Action: kristianpaul back to work09:50
IDMcleanOrnotermes, eventually I do plan on learning how to make CPUs and GPUs. I have a sketch for a processor architecture that I want to eventually implement. Hopefully, by the time I get to the place where I could implement it, we'll have first or second generation consumer grade quantum processors.09:51
IDMcleanThank you, kristianpaul.09:51
kristianpaulquantum processors will ne nice09:52
IDMcleanEspecially their oracle abilities.09:53
methril_workkristianpaul: where are you testing milkymist ? Do you have a FPGA board?09:54
kristianpaulmethril_work: i will, so far i'm using qemu09:55
kristianpauland hopefully icarus verilog soon*09:55
kristianpaulmethril_work: i bought an avnet spartan-309:56
methril_workkristianpaul: uff!! so expensive to bough any electronic device done outside at the country where i live:(10:01
kristianpaulmethril_work: it is 49usd10:02
kristianpaulis cheapest i can find10:02
kristianpaulmethril_work: where you live btw?10:02
kristianpauli'm located in colombia btw10:02
methril_workwell. if you have to pay 60% of import taxes and some others ... it gives expensive10:02
methril_worki´m living right now in Brazil10:03
methril_workbut i´m spanish10:03
kristianpaulbut is cheaper thta buy fpga to local dealers10:03
methril_worknot here10:03
kristianpaulhax what?10:04
IDMcleanHow much for a Milkymist?10:05
gbraadmilkymist is not for sale yet.10:06
gbraadalso not known when it will be as currently only bare pcb for prototyping exist10:07
IDMcleanWhat's the entry point for system-on-a-chip and pcb design?10:15
IDMcleanI've been thinking about acquiring an Arduino to learn more about hardware.10:17
OrnotermesIDMclean: another option is getting a AVR-programmer and use any avr8-chips10:26
IDMcleanOrnotermes, what's the comparative differences?10:38
IDMcleanThanks everyone for your feedback. I appreciate the critiques and recommendations.10:45
IDMcleanEnjoy. ^_^10:45
OrnotermesIDMclean: you get more control over the hardware (making your own PCBs, and components of your choice). Also you cna wite code in many languages. Cheaper since you can skip components you dont need10:47
wejpif anyone's interested, here's a picture with a size comparison of some handheld devices, including the ben nanonote: http://wejp.k.vu/gp2x/pandora-size-comparison13:27
Ornotermeswejp: how do the keyboard on ben feel compared to pandora?13:35
wejpthe ben's keyboard has buttons with a click, while the buttons of the pandora have not such a strong click but are more soft13:36
wejpit is a little easier to type on the pandora's keyboard, because the buttons are a little more separated, but the ben's keyboard is okay too, once one get used to it13:39
methril_workand the power of the pandora compared to the Ben?13:41
Ornotermeswejp: that sounds nice :)13:42
wejpyou mean power as in cpu power or as in battery power? ;)13:42
wejpas for the cpu, the pandora's cpu is very fast, the xfce desktop runs really nicely on it13:44
wejpas for the battery, the battery life is really amazing, with wlan turned on all the time it lasts almost 10 hours13:44
zearwejp, lucky bastard you got all of the cool consoles ;)13:45
wejpzear, hehe ;)13:45
zearthough on the other hand i only lack two from that picture ;)13:45
wejpwhich ones? ;)13:45
zearpandora and a33013:46
wejpi had to pay money for my pandora, i did not get it for free ;|13:47
zearwell, i had to pay for all of my toys ;)13:47
zearincluding the nn ;P13:47
wejpi got my a330 for free :)13:47
wejppaid for the a320 and gp2x though13:47
zearyeah, i was told i'm getting one, but i guess things changed as i didn't get it in the end :P13:48
wejpoh :(13:48
wejpbut it is noth that different from the a320 anyways, so you are not missing all that much ;)13:48
zearbut hearing from stephanie that her unit died after a couple of days, maybe that's for the better someone saved the money ;)13:48
wejpoh, mine didn't die yet, but i did not have the time to play with it that much yet either13:50
zearbtw wejp if you like gmu on handhelds with keyboards, i can port it to jornada 720 ;)13:50
wejpoh, what kind of device is the jornada 720?13:51
zeara bigger cousin of the nanonote ;)13:51
wejpah :D13:52
wejpok, i've googled the device :D13:52
wejpincredible how much money people pay for getting a pandora :O13:53
wejpi should sell mine ;)13:54
zearwejp, http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/zear/pictures/p1010823.jpg13:54
wejpcool :)13:55
zearoh wow, is that auction for real?13:58
Ornotermesby the way, is there any space in ben for another PCB?14:05
tuxbrainwejp: you know where is the shippment order list?14:06
tuxbrainI want to know what numer I am14:07
tuxbrainI also want my pandora!!!14:07
tuxbrainOrnotermes: in addition to the one it has?14:08
Ornotermestuxbrain: yes14:11
tuxbrainecual size than existing no, a smoller one with very thin components maybe, I succesfully attacha a 8 pin connector under the speaker, I have to "dremelize" part of the plastic but it fits you can the pictures here14:19
Ornotermestoo bad the base dont have any space in front of the battery14:20
Ornotermesit would have been a nice plave to put a tiny pcb14:21
sdschulze[probably FAQ]: How supported is Debian on the NanoNote?  I flashed the image from pyneo, but most things were not really running.14:23
sdschulzeIs there any information on how they did the porting?  Did they just take the existing debian-mips port or is there anything non-trivial?14:24
emdetesdschulze: what does "most things were not really running." mean for u?14:26
sdschulzeShift-key was flawed for some chars, unable to load modules => no sound, only one tty working, etc.14:27
sdschulzedon't recall everything right now14:27
sdschulzeX ran, but the keymap was broken.14:29
nebajoththe pyneo image is crippled14:30
sdschulzeI realized. :)))14:31
nebajothuse the one linked to from tuxbrain's tutorial14:31
nebajothmy NN runs debian14:31
nebajothand its pretty good14:31
nebajothsure, sec14:31
nebajothonly the first part is relevant14:32
nebajothits the sid image at http://mister-muffin.de/nanonote/debian-sid.ubi14:32
nebajoththat works14:32
nebajothyou'll want to add swap space14:32
nebajothI use a microsd card14:32
nebajothbut I believe xiangfu li is using a swapfile on the ubifs14:32
nebajothif you don't add swap, apt will crap out on larger application installs14:33
sdschulzeI realized that, too.14:33
tuxbrainyou can follow the xiangfu tutorial to run in sdcard  http://www.openmobilefree.net/?p=53514:33
nebajothmine works pretty good14:33
nebajothI'm having a keymap issue atm14:34
sdschulzeand I couldn't add one because ubifs is so fragmented and Linux doesn't like that...14:34
nebajothbut otherwise, I'm using my NN pretty often14:34
nebajoththen use a microsd card14:34
nebajothmkswap /dev/mmcblk0p114:34
nebajothswapon /dev/mmcblk0p114:34
sdschulze(I was actually surprised how much I could even do without swap...)14:35
wejptuxbrain, there is no publich list, at least i'm not aware of one, but you can roughly estimate when your will be shipping, depending on when you've ordered yours. i think those who have recevied their device already all have ordered at the very first day when preorders started14:35
nebajothoh, sound also doesn't work out of the box14:35
nebajothbut its pretty easy to get going14:35
nebajothand the speaker is LOUD14:35
sdschulzenebajoth: as long as loading modules works...14:36
tuxbrainwejp It was some time ago than I don't remember if I do on the first day, or first week, or first decade14:36
nebajothyep, sdschulze14:37
tuxbrainwhen you ordered yours14:37
wejphehe, okay ^^14:37
nebajoththat's what I meant by "easy fix" :P14:37
sdschulzeBTW, what's the best way to choose a smaller console font, so I can have at least 72 chars or semthing like that...14:37
nebajoththere's a mailing list thread about that14:37
sdschulzenebajoth: Is there any documentation about how that other image was made?14:39
nebajothsdschulze: not to my knowledge.14:39
nebajothexcept for an off the cuff statement or two on the pyneo site14:40
sdschulzenebajoth: I mean the mister-muffin.de one.14:40
nebajothI haven't any idea14:40
nebajothask tuxbrain14:40
tuxbrainask pineo :P14:41
tuxbrainI think emdete is hanging here time to time14:42
tuxbrainwejp: I have ordered mine on 01-10-200814:42
wejpthat's one day after preorders started14:43
sdschulzetuxbrain: So the mister-muffin.de one is a fixed pyneo.org image?14:43
tuxbrainsdschulze: I think is a prove of concept to build a more complete one but you sould better ask to pyneo about it, I just download it and check that it works14:44
tuxbrainwejp:so..... why I don't have a pandora at my hand and this moment, hum? :P, just joking (sigh) If I have waited for .... what now... a year and 8 months? I can wait a couple of weeks more... or two months :P14:47
wejphehe, yeah, i guess it shouldn't take too long for you anymore, but otoh who knows? ;)14:48
sdschulzeSo there is no "official" Debian-on-Nanonote project?14:48
nebajothit turns the NN into a general purpose computer14:49
nebajothwhich comes with certain patent endangering potentials14:49
nebajoththe management of the project are leery of trolls14:49
nebajothso they've explicitly disabled support for proprietary codecs in their tailored openwrt image14:50
nebajothand discourage the use of any firmware that might re-enable it14:50
nebajothwhich debian certainly does14:50
nebajothI personally am not affiliated with the project beyond participation in the mailing list14:50
nebajothI use debian, and like it14:50
tuxbraintalking abour it, nebajoth is the NN-Deb site to forward the tuxbrain articles there?14:51
nebajothnot yet, tuxbrain14:51
nebajothhave been a little short on time14:51
nebajothI'll get something up this weekend by the latest14:51
tuxbrainok just ping me14:51
tuxbrainand thanks a lot :)14:52
nebajothmy pleasure14:52
tuxbrainI'm really piss off on that situation, I'm a debian lover, supporter and advocate so you can understand how painful is to me to banish my own created content from my own site... man it hurts just thinking aboutn it :(14:54
nebajothdebian users are usually the ones wagging their fingers at other distros14:55
nebajothfor including things like proprietary codec support by default14:55
nebajothI find it really ironic that its too proprietary for us14:55
nebajothcould do14:56
sdschulzeWould that remove patent problems?14:56
tuxbrainyeah, if it has the non-free tag... why don't they include those patent stuff there?14:56
nebajothgnewsense has a lot of emphasis on desktop14:58
nebajothit looks like its based on ubuntu?14:58
nebajothubuntu doesn't have a mips port14:58
tuxbrainfaq sais is based on debian14:59
tuxbrainsorry this was 3.015:00
tuxbrainactual one 2.3 is based on Ubuntu15:00
sdschulzetuxbrain: because it's not non-free in the sense of copyright15:00
nebajothI'm instantiating a community website dedicated to Debian on the NN, sdschulze15:01
nebajothI just haven't had time to put it up15:01
nebajothwork has been a bit busy15:01
nebajothI've only been procrastinating for two days though15:01
nebajoththis is a fairly recent development15:01
tuxbrainsdschulze: so in what sense? money?15:02
nebajothtuxbrain is just impatient to get his stuff online :P15:02
tuxbrainheehehe :) yeah you start to knowing me15:02
nebajothneeds a clever name15:03
tuxbrainI like the last one15:04
nebajothits not bad15:04
tuxbrainhehehe pissoffonsoftpattentsusingnanonote.org15:05
sdschulzetuxbrain: Things like LAME are free software in the sense that they are under a free copyright license.15:06
tuxbrainsdschulze: ok thanks :)15:09
xdpiratelame and libmpg123 are free software but mp3 patent holders don't like them very much15:11
nebajothtuxbrain, sdschulze: the lines of code for LAME might be free15:11
nebajothbut yes15:11
nebajothwhat xdpirate said15:11
nebajoththe codec itself requires licensing15:11
xdpiratewhich sucks15:11
nebajothit does.15:11
xdpiratemeh, guess i'll have to mass convert all my music to ogg or flac then15:12
sdschulzetuxbrain: I assume the Debian migration is already in progress.15:13
nebajoththere do seem to be a lot of debian users15:13
xdpiratequick question: is it possible to connect the nn as a mass storage device, so i can transfer files without being close to a linux computer? i usually don't drag my pc with me when on vacation etc :P15:13
xdpiratewindows pcs are everywhere, and connecting as a mass storage device would simplify putting stuff on it when not having access to a linux pc15:14
urandom_well most pcs have a sd cardreader or you can take one with you15:15
nebajothI've hardly ever seen an sd cardreader on a workstation15:16
nebajothlaptops more often15:16
xdpirateurandom_, yeah, that's true, but can you connect so you get access to the internal nand memory?15:17
sdschulzexdpirate: How can you read the ubifs from a Windows PC?15:17
xdpiratei don't actually have my nanonote yet15:17
xdpiratestill in the mail15:17
urandom_nebajoth newer pcs have them, well maybe most was too much15:18
mtheven if the PC can read the file system, it's not possible to access it at the sector level from both the PC and the device15:18
xdpirateanyone have more feature requests for dex before it's released? (must be doable in a terminal as of now)15:19
mthso you'd have to put the device in a special mode where it does not run its normal applications15:19
mthis it an option to run Samba on the NN?15:20
urandom_i hope the Ya will get two mircosd slots instead of NAND15:20
xdpiratesamba would be sweet, but doesn't windows generally have problems with usb networking?15:20
mthI don't know, I don't have Windows anymore15:22
mthon the Mac the Dingoo's ethernet over USB works fine without drivers15:22
sdschulzetuxbrain, nebajoth: It seems like even gNewSense includes patent-covered codecs, though.15:23
urandom_xdpirate what about installing linux on a pendrive or using a live cd?15:23
xdpiratemeh, i'll just install ubuntu on my old laptop and bring that, lol15:24
mthyou can always use winscp for transferring files, but I don't know if you need drivers as well15:25
nebajothtuxbrain: what about nanohack.net?15:27
tuxbrainxdpirate: techically posible also some trys but seems there is some DMA stuff to beat on kernel to make it working15:27
tuxbrainnebajoth: not bad but depending on what your intentions are if is for create a debian community nanodeb.net is better, if is for more generical nanonote "dirty" hacks not having space on official wiky due  legal materrs then nanohack.org is best15:30
sdschulzenebajoth: What do you have in your sources.list?15:31
nebajothI want to get the fedora mips port working on the NN15:47
nebajothand possibly gentoo later on15:49
nebajothI don't really want to make it debian specific15:49
nebajothalthough obviously that's our first concern righ tnow15:49
nebajothright now15:49
nebajothjust deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian sid main, sdschulze15:49
sdschulzenebajoth: mips or mipsel?15:50
tuxbrainwith that goals in mind then nanohack.org fits better15:51
sdschulzenebajoth: So unlike for openwrt, where there is really a fork, it's just using the standard port?15:53
nebajothnanonote is mipsel15:53
nebajothpretty much15:54
nebajothre: standard port15:54
nebajothneeds custom kernel15:54
nebajothand xboot15:54
nebajothbut otherwise its a pretty standard debian15:54
sdschulzeOK, yeah15:54
nebajothanybody else got an opinion on nanohack.net/org?15:56
nebajothgood?  bad?15:56
nebajoththat could be good15:59
sdschulzeif you want to pay for a domain name15:59
sdschulzeYou could also host at Sourceforge or somewhere.15:59
nebajothI don't mind forking over $1016:02
tuxbrainyes nanohacks sounds better16:03
nebajoth.net or .org?16:06
nebajotheven though nanohacks.net is alliteration?16:09
urandom_well i dont really care, it just came first on my mind16:10
xdpiratei'm in the process of preparing my 8 gb sd-card for when the nanonote arrives16:10
xdpiratehow should i format it?16:10
urandom_ext2 if you want debian on it16:11
xdpirateand what does openwrt support?16:11
xdpiratei'd like fat32 if possible, so i can use both on my windows and my linux pcs16:11
nebajothI hope you mean micro-sd card16:12
xdpirateof course16:12
urandom_i think is used one card with fat32 on the ben with openwrt16:12
xdpiratealright, fat 32 it is then16:13
xdpiratedoes blocksize matter?16:13
urandom_my cards came preformated with fat32 so dont know16:17
xdpirateah kk16:17
Skuerzocould someone help me find why my NN only gets icmp traffic on NAT?17:50
Action: FrankBlues waves18:10
FrankBluesOkay, are binaries compatible between debian and openwrt?18:36
FrankBluesAnd while I'm there, has anyone gotten the debian SD card to work?18:40
lars_lekernel: i found out that you were in hamburg recenlty18:55
lars_lots of milkymist stickers in the basement room18:55
lekerneli'm not the only one putting them :)19:00
lekernelbut yes, I was in Hamburg19:00
mthFrankBlues: in general, my experience is that there is no binary compatibility between Linux distros unless you link all libs statically19:02
mthzear's ports run on both Dingoo and NanoNote because of static linking19:03
FrankBluesI've got debian on an SD card booted, and I'd love to be able to run the stuff that's on my nanonote's openwrt partitions...19:03
mthbut it does increase the binary size19:03
FrankBlues(or at least access it...)19:03
mthah, but you could use chroot19:04
FrankBluesSo zear's stuff should run under debian?19:04
mthI think it would19:04
FrankBluesSo that makes it an issue of just mounting filesystems...19:04
mthwith chroot you'd be using both the libs and the executables of the other distro, only keeping the foreign kernel19:04
FrankBluesThanks mth, I'll have to look into that when I have a minute, right now I have to work on dinner... heh...19:09
nebajothyes hello19:32
tuxbrainhi nebajoth19:39
nebajothhello tuxbrain19:46
nebajothI registered nanohacks.org earlier19:46
tuxbrain:), you need hosting?19:47
nebajothI'm a sysadmin for an ISP that does hosting19:47
nebajothI'm putting it on one of our servers19:48
tuxbrainheheehehe :)19:48
tuxbrainok I just have one debian dedicated server19:48
nebajothis it your nanonote? :D19:48
tuxbrainhehehehe , a little bigger than that, but hey I have a lot of NN maybe I can do a nanoserver farm19:49
nebajothI dare you19:53
nebajothto beowulf cluster 100 NNs19:53
nebajothinto a crazy server farm19:54
Ornotermestuxbrain: define "a lot" :P19:57
nebajothhe sells them19:57
zxcvbwhether nanonote has USB host19:57
tuxbrainThe day I sell 1000 nanos(whatever version)/month for tree consecutive months I will reserve 100 just for doing that, It is written it should be19:57
nebajothzxcvb: no19:58
zxcvbbut, at http://www.linux.com/news/embedded-mobile/netbooks/296251:a-review-ben-nanonote-gets-small-with-embedded-linux    , it is mentioned that it has USB host19:59
tuxbrainso then linux.com is wrong19:59
zxcvbbut at qi hardware website there is no mention of it in the technical specs at http://sharism.cc/specs/19:59
zxcvbokay, fine19:59
tuxbrainat least until Ya nanonote hits the real world19:59
nebajoththere is a usb host controller in the JZ4740 chipset, I believe20:00
nebajothbut there's nothing connected to it20:00
zxcvbi remember there was lots of request for usb host feature from developers on the mailing list. Whether it got included in the ROADMAP atleast20:00
nebajothyes, usb host would be epic.20:01
nebajothusb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist20:01
zxcvbwithout it many of embedded app developers with plans for analog devices connecting to it ARE HANDICAPPED today20:01
nebajothanalog devices?20:01
nebajothsuch as?20:02
nebajothtuxbrain got the NN talking to an arduino20:02
Skuerzocould anybody help me find why my NN only gets ICMP traffic through NAT?20:03
zxcvblike ecg signals or oxymeters taking analog signals from brain etc and then by A2D convertors converting them and sending them to nanonote for further processing on the digital data. No need for developing a custom digital circuit with embedded source code on say ARM/Atmega etc chipset20:04
tuxbrainmost modules for embedded devices out there have an UART interface more than USB one, and BNN has an UART interfece20:04
mthSkuerzo: what device / OS does the NAT?20:04
Skuerzomy laptop with Gentoo, with iptables set to ACCEPT all20:04
max_posedonSkuerzo, are you sure that you correctly configured nat itself?20:05
mthACCEPT on the forward chain, I assume?20:05
zxcvbJust after A2D one can use this device for digital processing with normal PC like programming but with embedded device like light wieght and portability20:05
max_posedonSkuerzo, my gentoo configuration http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223388/20:06
Skuerzomth a iptables -L returns "Chain FORWARD (policy ACCEPT)"20:06
Ornotermesi don't know how bigg issue it will be but i worry a little bit over the i2c20:07
Ornotermesanyone managed to use hardware i2c or is it completely locked up by the keyboard?20:07
max_posedoniptables -L http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223389/20:08
max_posedoniptables-save http://paste.pocoo.org/show/223390/20:08
mthhardware I2C can only use two specific pins, software I2C can use any two GPIO pins20:08
max_posedonSkuerzo, may be this will help you20:08
Skuerzomax_posedon i'll try it, thanks in advance20:09
max_posedonSkuerzo, and btw, gentoo could works on BenNN20:09
SkuerzoI still have to change ips, my NN is running Debian atm20:09
max_posedon(at least I get cross compiled glibc and uclibc basic systems)20:09
wolfspraulzxcvb: that linux.com arti> Jahre. Er hat zwar auch keinen USB-Hostmode, aber es gibt eine Dockingstation,20:10
wolfspraul> die das hat. Und es gibt unglaublich viel Software für das Ding. Ich habe20:10
mthyou can filter by input or output interface instead of IP address, if the IP address is not constant20:11
wolfspraulzxcvb: that linux.com article stands out with by far the most mistakes in any press coverage NanoNote had20:11
Ornotermesmth: yeah, i know, and as far as i can see those are used by keyboard, there for i wonder if someone managed to use them by modifing hardware and/or software20:11
wolfspraulwe tried to correct it in many ways, before the article was published (!) and after, but oh well20:11
wolfspraulthey have their 'working style'20:11
zxcvbwolfsprual: :)20:11
wolfspraulyeah I can show you my email archives, where I am begging them to reply, call me, etc. along with the corrections, but no20:12
wolfspraulmachine was moving forward20:12
wolfspraulthe article is bad!20:12
wolfspraullong story short20:12
mthOrnotermes: the software I2C driver seems to work fine though, is there any particular reason you want to use the hardware I2C driver?20:12
zxcvbthanx, i was thinking of purchasing 4-5 units after reading this article(regarding usb host) . But now i will wait20:12
Ornotermesmth: not really, but don't want to bit bang if i don't have to20:14
wolfspraulzxcvb: he, fair enough. It's good that we avoided that disappointment.20:14
wolfspraulof course I would still encourage you to buy one to start playing with the platform20:14
mthOrnotermes: Linux does the bit banging for you, in the i2c-gpio driver20:15
wolfspraulfor Ya, the successor, the most likely thing right now is Ben + more memory + usb host (on-the-go) + RF20:15
wolfspraulfor the RF, it could be Wi-Fi, or an ISM RF (ism = industrial scientific medial)20:15
zxcvbbut without that usb host, how do you even put usb pen drives on nanonote?20:15
zxcvbi mean thats very basic20:15
wolfspraulthere is a small chance we will get GPS included as well, but we have to be very careful that we are not aiming for too much with the Ya, and in the end come out with a crappy device20:15
Ornotermesmth: shure, but its still bitbanging... and as i said, i avoid that as much as i can20:16
wolfspraulI do agree with people who want a backlit keyboard like nebajoth. We already talked to the keyboard factory about it, we'll see.20:16
urandom_GPS would be really awesome i would it even prefer to wi-fi!20:16
mthOrnotermes: well, if the keyboard is connected to the I2C GPIO ports, then soldering those connections to different pins is the only way to use the hardware I2C support, I think20:17
wolfspraulzxcvb: of course it's basic. That's the beauty of it. We cannot do more than this right now, and many people are currently working on bringing this 'basic' hardware to its full potential.20:17
tuxbrainurandom_: me too, even if it has also some kind of slow-fi :)20:17
wolfspraulurandom_: ah, hi there. I wanted to say thanks for the wiki translations into German you did. Very appreciated!20:17
wolfspraultuxbrain: both wi-fi and slowfi is also an option20:17
wolfspraulbut we have to be really careful20:17
mthOrnotermes: there is no way in the JZ SoC to select different pins for the hardware I2C, if that's what you wanted to know20:17
wolfspraulI will not do another freerunner prematurely20:17
tuxbrainuff not too much power draining?20:18
wolfspraulI need several years for that, and people have to go along and help (with sales and hacking). Then we can make it.20:18
wolfspraultuxbrain: well you can turn on/off everything separately if it's done well20:18
wolfspraulbut anyway, most likely that won't happen20:18
zxcvbwolfspraul: thumbs up for endeavour of u ppl to make it realize its full potential20:18
wolfspraulthe Ben is a beautiful piece of hardware, I think everybody agrees20:19
zxcvbwolfspraul: ya20:19
Ornotermesmth: i was tinking och some kind och multiplexing, but it would probalby not be a very good idea either20:19
wolfspraulof course it's limited, we try to communicate the hardware specs as clearly as possible (linux.com was the worst offender).20:19
wolfspraulbut the hardware it is, it's rock stable.20:19
mthOrnotermes: you'd have to share one resource between two unrelated drivers then; it would make a bit of a mess of the kernel I think20:20
wolfspraulthat was one of the key things I learnt from my prior job at Openmoko. If we want to have a basis for free software, which develops slowly (like good cheese or wine :-)), then we must have stable hardware to work on.20:20
wolfspraulif the hardware is also a big construction site, everybody will loose20:20
wolfsprauland that's what we are executing now20:21
wolfspraulrock solid hardware, slowly better and better free software emerges20:21
zxcvbwolfspraul: i agree20:22
zxcvbbut still i agree with nejaboth too (his statement usb host + wifi + backlit keys = my wishlist  )20:22
wolfspraulgood, we are all roughly on the same page20:22
wolfsprauljust please understand this is essentially a self-funded community project20:23
wolfsprauland that's what keeps it free20:23
wolfspraulso I will not trade that in20:23
wolfspraulusb-host is easy20:23
wolfspraulbacklit keys is easy on the software side, but a lot of leg-work with vendors20:23
wolfspraulwifi is a best20:24
Ornotermesmth: i was thining controling i2c-pullups could be controled by a fet connected to a gpio, and when i2c is reqested it turns off the keyboard raises pullups and do some stuff then turns i2c and pullups off and starts the keyboard again20:24
zxcvbthanx from heart for the statement (that usb-host is easy)20:24
wolfspraulwe are working on it20:24
tuxbrainagain to not dissapoint anyone is 1.1 USB not 2.0 USB20:24
wolfsprauloh yeah, nobody ask for USB 3.0 and so please20:24
tuxbrainwireless usb :P20:24
Ornotermesmth: but then i could probably use bitbanged drivers as well20:25
zxcvbwolfspraul: ya even usb 1.1 is ok20:25
wolfspraulbtw, wi-fi in ben nanonote works today20:25
wolfspraulsometimes forgotten20:25
wolfspraulbut the microSD card it is using (Spectec SDW-823) is 'expensive', so people are not crazy about that either20:26
zxcvbya once usb host comes in then addon wireless usb controllers will be easy to plugin by us only, no need to even support on core mother board (say)20:26
wolfspraulplus not much more money will be invested into it so it may disappear from the market soon20:26
Ornotermeswolfspraul: i was thinking of connecting a serial radio modem to a ben when i buy one (and use slip) :)20:26
max_posedonusb device 2.0, better that usb-host+device 1.1, thats what I dislike in Freerunner20:26
Action: urandom_ is still dreaming of some kind of trackpoint for the Yi :P20:27
wolfspraulI'm dreaming about better software for the Ben.20:27
wolfspraulthat's the only thing that gives me a remote chance of moving a few more units, and that's the only thing that will make Ya happen.20:27
wolfspraulit's good pressure20:27
Action: tuxbrain is just dreaming20:27
wolfspraulbuild a business, find customers, listen20:28
nebajothhaha yes20:28
nebajothsdw-823 is 'expensive'20:28
nebajothbecause its the same price as the whole NN20:28
tuxbraingood night guys don't be to vervose , there are people willing to sleep here :P  see ya20:28
nebajothI'd accept bluetooth + a second unit with bluetooth and wifi20:29
nebajothnight tuxbrain20:30
wolfspraulthe company that did the SDW-823 went bankrupt over the many millions they invested in making this beautiful technology happen20:30
nebajothwolfspraul: what do you mean by "better software"?20:30
wolfspraulnot Spectec, but KeyStream20:30
wolfspraulit's easy to lean back and complain about 'expensive', in the end we will all buy 99 USD iPads and iPhones20:30
wolfspraulhardware economics are really interesting20:31
wolfspraulnebajoth: 'better software', lots of things. For me the most important is that when I sell a unit, the out-of-the-box experience is great.20:31
nebajothI don't buy apple crap20:32
wolfspraul2 GB NAND packed full with great sw and content. fast gui. music player (ogg), video player, whatever you imagine20:32
nebajothand work pays for my blackberry20:32
urandom_someone bought a pandora for 1800$ or so: thats expensive20:32
wolfspraulthat's what I need to sell more Ben = finance Ya, etc.20:32
wolfspraulthen better software can also be Debian, JLiMe, Fedora20:32
nebajothwhat on earth is KLiMe20:33
wolfspraulbetter console apps (for me personally)20:33
nebajothconsole ftw20:33
nebajothalthough I'm finding even curses apps are usually too wide for the NN screen20:33
urandom_we already have a great music player, just need a video player and offline wiki20:33
wolfspraulsure, but you asked me what I mean with 'better software', so first for me it's software that helps me sell units20:33
wolfspraulthen second it's what I want myself on the BNN20:33
nebajothhell, catting logfiles is a pain20:33
wolfspraulurandom_: yes! :-)20:34
nebajothI don't see the offline wiki thing20:34
nebajoththe usefulness I mean20:34
wolfspraulhow about dictionary?20:34
nebajothwho cares about dictionaries, though?20:35
nebajothnobody in their right mind cares about dictionaries20:35
nebajoththey just go to the nearest pc20:35
nebajothand use google20:35
Ornotermeshmm, a serial bluetooth module might be a good alternative to get internet in the ben20:35
urandom_i just hope love (or ulove) really gets ported to nanonote, that is all that is needed to make me happy20:35
max_posedonnebajoth, people sometimes offline, I like my wikireaders, in bus in long travels20:35
nebajothwikireaders I understand20:35
nebajothdictionaries I don't20:35
nebajothis there enough space to capture wikipedia?20:36
nebajothin 2G?20:36
nebajothwouldn't that make a better add-on sd card?20:36
max_posedonits sometimes nice, when you aboard20:36
nebajothsell wikipedia on a microsd20:36
max_posedonand gprs in rouming very expensive to use20:36
tuxbrain_awayurandom_: all you need is love....?.... :D:D sorry I can stand good night20:36
urandom_lol yeah all i need is love20:38
nebajothJLiMe looks interesting enough, but I doubt it has a terrible large audience20:38
urandom_nebajoth people buy electronic dictionarys and they cost sometimes more than a nononote20:38
Ornotermeshow does navigation in for example GTK work on Ben?20:39
urandom_having a GOOD dictionary for the ben would really be a killer app20:40
max_posedondictionary with pronounces - defenetly20:40
max_posedons/pronounces/sounds for most common words/20:41
urandom_stardict is already good for my needs but i think needs some cleanup and nicer look and pronounces if possible20:42
nebajothI don't see it20:44
nebajothmaybe I'm just too surrounded by computers20:44
nebajothor have too impeccable spelling :P20:44
nebajothits the best damned OGG player I've ever had20:45
nebajothand FLAC player20:45
nebajothin fact20:45
nebajothFLAC sounds amazing in my car20:45
nebajothfrom the mini out20:45
nebajothI am using it as a little `remind` box too20:46
nebajothI used vim to write a python script to check battery levels20:46
nebajothON the NN, in the back seat of a truck on the way home from the cottage20:46
nebajothwhich was fun20:46
nebajothand also where I discovered that dusk means you can't see the red shift characters anymore20:47
nebajothalthough you can continue to see the others for a while20:47
nebajothif we CAN'T get backlighting on the Ya, we should at least change the colour from red to something more visible in low light20:47
Ornotermesif it is not possible to get back light, why not put one or two white led in the screen part, just like som thinkpads20:48
urandom_or sell it with a bigger and brighter screen :P20:50
max_posedonwhat about use NN, and learn red keys in 5-10 days?)20:54
nebajothwolfspraul: ping20:55
wolfsprauljust looking into an Indefero bug (projects.qi-hardware.com)20:57
wolfspraulseems when the first name is blank, it becomes '---' or so, and then the confirmation mails are not sent out20:57
wolfspraulsomething like that, still looking20:57
wolfspraulI would like to get some more action into the projects server, but first it needs to work really well20:58
wolfspraulI'm very happy with Indefero actually20:58
mthnebajoth: maybe some kind of fluorescent paint?21:02
mthnot sure if biological fluorescent dyes last long enough though21:03
mthradioactive ones do, but then you have to be very careful about the conditions in the factory21:03
mthmaybe just highly reflective paint is enough, since the LCD backlight is a strong light source21:04
nebajothmth: i had the same idea21:05
nebajoththe unit is already a clamshell21:05
nebajothput an LED or two in the side with the screen21:05
nebajothfold the thing in half when the keys need to glow more21:05
nebajothresume work21:05
nebajothwolfspraul: projects server?21:06
nebajothI registered nanohacks.org21:06
nebajothI just installed buddypress21:07
nebajothgoing to find a decent theme21:07
mthon my laptop, I actually use the bumps on F and J to type in the dark, instead of activating the key backlight21:07
nebajoththen customize it21:07
mthbut not everyone can type blindly, especially on a non-standard keyboard21:07
nebajothshould put braille on all the letters :P21:07
wolfspraulnanohacks - nice21:08
wolfspraulis that where you plan to host the Debian stuff (replying to your mail still on my list...)21:08
mthbraille keys + speech synthesis might be useful for blind people though21:08
nebajothwolfspraul: yes.21:10
nebajothtuxbrain and urandom_ helped me decide on the name21:10
nebajothwe were going to go with nanodeb at first21:10
nebajothbut I want it to be broader than debian21:10
wolfspraulnanohacks is cool21:10
nebajothI want to include fedora and gentoo later21:10
nebajothdid you meet up with the fedora mips project guys?21:10
wolfspraullunch today I think21:11
wolfspraulbut I will do this slowly21:11
nebajothI sent them an email21:11
wolfspraulfirst need to get to know gbraad21:11
nebajothyeah, he's the one that replied21:11
wolfspraulhe's on the channel actually21:11
nebajothoh eah21:11
nebajothgbraad hello :P21:11
wolfsprauldon't expect quick results there21:11
nebajoththat's what he said21:12
nebajoththat's fine21:12
nebajothI'm not impatient21:12
wolfspraul32 MB is low, not sure fedora can target this today. they should, but we see.21:12
max_posedonnebajoth, (gentoo) I think it won't be hard, I just successfully cross compiled uclibc and glibc for mips on gentoo (for uclibc few hacks requeired)21:12
wolfspraulwe have some devel boards with 64 MB21:12
nebajothmax_posedon: can you document what you're doing?21:12
nebajothI'd like to put it on nanohacks21:12
wolfspraulneed to talk to gbraad first to understand the bigger picture21:12
max_posedongentoo's out-of-box support is good enough (for glibc configuration mainly)21:12
nebajothmax_posedon: that's what I suspected21:13
nebajothI was a gentoo user for 5 years21:13
nebajothbefore ubuntu coaxed me away21:13
Ornotermeswolfspraul: could a ben board work with a 64 or even 128MB RAM chip?21:13
max_posedonnebajoth, there is some cross compilation issues, but many of them was fixed during openmoko-stuff, and some even before. cross compilation is defently "another story" and uclibc is "another story" in square)21:14
wolfspraulOrnotermes: 64 mb yes, we built such boards for small runs21:14
wolfspraulgbraad: are we on track for lunch today?21:14
FrankBluesFlargh... debian is being molasses like on the nn...21:14
gbraadit seems so. I will be in caochangdi around 1221:14
max_posedonnebajoth, I'll prepare docs as soon as I'll successfully run vim there.21:14
gbraadunfamiliar to the place, so bear with me21:15
nebajoththanks max_posedon21:15
nebajothFrankBlues: have you got swap space?21:15
FrankBluesYeah... same amount as in the sd howto.21:16
gbraadsee the messages about the fedora porting21:16
gbraadhave recevied about 5 emails about us having to target the nanonote21:16
gbraad32mb is really small21:16
nebajothnobody said "have to"21:16
nebajothI didn't21:17
gbraadbut it is a potential target21:17
gbraadas the alpha 400 is also ingenic based21:17
nebajothand that IS a target?21:17
gbraadnot yet21:17
gbraadtarget now is Loongson21:18
gbraadand we gradually move to other MIPS based processors21:18
gbraadand yes, Ingenic is one of them in the longrun21:19
FrankBluesnebajoth: 65528 total swap21:19
gbraadalthough 32mb poses a big hurdle21:19
gbraadwe will first create a mini fedora (base system with rpm)21:19
gbraadand see what will come from that21:19
nebajothperhaps it is more realistic to target the Ya21:21
nebajothFrankBlues: what are you running?21:22
FrankBluesDebian Sid from a 1gb sdcard.21:22
wolfspraulgbraad: Ya NanoNote is the successor of Ben NanoNote21:23
wolfspraulearliest in 6 months21:24
wolfspraulnext year :-)21:24
gbraadAh, it is now called the Ya21:25
wolfspraulalways was21:25
wolfspraulBen Ya Mu Guo21:25
wolfspraulGuo is the iPhone killer, in 202021:25
gbraadI only know AVT221:25
wolfspraulthat's a small run devel board21:26
gbraadok, just explain me more at the meeting21:26
nebajothFrankBlues: paste the Cpu(s) line of top?21:26
nebajothjust pastebin top output21:26
nebajothI wonder if the Ben will run Dwarf Fortress21:27
gbraadwolfspraul: +86 1326 964 2794 just in case21:28
FrankBluesnebajoth: http://pastebin.com/7KHqfNrQ21:28
nebajothlet's see21:29
nebajoth98% idle21:29
nebajothload was bigger a few minutes ago21:30
nebajothhave you stopped any processes?21:30
FrankBluesI just finished an apt-get21:30
nebajothyou're using 1816k swap21:30
nebajothits probably all i/o slowdown21:30
nebajothwas it moving like molasses during the apt-get? :P21:31
FrankBluesYeah, I did an apt-get update then upgrade, and the config parts were molasses-like21:31
FrankBluesThen again, I should probably expect that.21:32
FrankBluesI need to go through the rc files and see what I can pare down (unused gettys, etc...)21:32
nebajothdefinitely expect that21:33
nebajothapt-get is pretty demanding on it21:33
nebajothaptitude won't even run for me21:33
nebajothit chokes21:33
urandom_there is a reason why openwrt is using opkg instead of apt-get :P21:34
nebajothfor sure21:36
nebajothbut opkg doesn't have 60 000 packages :P21:36
nebajothand it runs fine21:36
nebajothapt-get works great, as long as you have swapspace for it21:37
nebajothyou just have to leave the ben alone for a few minutes21:37
nebajothwhich seems reasonable21:37
FrankBluesI'm wondering if I should give jlime a shot on the nn21:37
nebajothif you do21:38
nebajothdocument it21:38
nebajothI'll put it on nanohacks.org21:38
nebajothits still a skeleton21:38
nebajothI don't feel like theming it tonight21:39
Ornotermeswolfspraul: it would be neat if you freed more GPIO in future versions, you could probably free a bunch of io by using shift registers and/or mux/demux-chips21:39
nebajothbut I should have something solid up by the weekend21:39
FrankBluesArrgh! "mount: unknown filesystem type 'ubifs'"21:39
mthcan you modprobe it?21:40
FrankBluesHang on, I'm in the middle of another apt wait.21:40
nebajothapt-wait install doom221:40
FrankBluesFATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/ No such file or directory21:41
nebajothls -lh /lib/modules21:41
FrankBlues"total 0"21:41
nebajothapt-get install linux-headers21:41
FrankBluesmonolithic kernel perhaps.21:41
nebajothhm I was thinking wrong path21:42
FrankBluesapt-get install sandwich21:42
FrankBlueswhile waiting.21:42
nebajothYou require root permissions.21:42
FrankBluesI am root.21:42
nebajothInstalling sandwich to /dev/mouth.21:42
mthapt-get install linux-modules, I think21:42
FrankBluesIt wants me to be explicit for header install.21:42
xdpiratesandwich --deliciousness 10021:43
FrankBluesThis feels like the commodore 64 in terms of load time...21:43
FrankBluesflargh - no linux-modules pacakge.21:43
mthmaybe it's called linux-modules-2.6.32 or something21:44
FrankBluesapt-get install tylenol21:44
mthon my Debian gateway, the modules are included in the linux-image package21:45
nebajothLOAD "TYLENOL",8,121:45
FrankBluesYou know, VICE runs fairly smoothly on NN with openwrt.21:45
nebajothapt-cache search ^linux-modules21:45
mthlinux-headers is only needed if you want to compile kernel modules or other software that directly talks to the kernel, afaik21:45
nebajothyep, mth21:46
nebajothI misread the path it was complaining about21:46
mthFrankBlues: is linux-image-<someversion> installed?21:46
FrankBluesOne would hope... halfasec21:47
FrankBluesoh, and http://pastebin.com/rykwKMRE21:47
FrankBluesHow do you check if a package is installed?21:48
mthI don't know how the NN port was made, if it's a quick hack there might not be a linux-image package for it21:48
mthdpkg -l 'expr'21:48
Skuerzomax_posedon are you there?21:48
mthfor example: dpkg -l '*linux*'21:48
FrankBluesNope, no linux-image21:49
FrankBluesBut mtd-utils are there...21:49
FrankBluesAnd hostname as (none) is bugging me, but I think that should fix itself on reboot.21:51
nebajothFrankBlues: dpkg -l21:52
nebajothwith an appropriate grep21:52
FrankBluesnebajoth: Tried that, no linux-modules or linux-image21:52
nebajothwhat exactly are we trying to achieve?21:52
FrankBluesI have about a 1.3GB partition on the NN's NAND that I'd like to be able to access while using the debian from the SD card.21:53
nebajothah es21:54
FrankBlueshehehe... "apt-get install vlc-nox"21:55
FrankBluesI think I'm going to take a break for a bit. Thanks, nebajoth and mth!22:00
rafaI found a nice terminal emulator for console :)23:23
rafaif you have not tried.. fbterm.. it builds easily and runs great.. because you can specify the font size in number pixels ;)23:23
wolfsprauloh sure23:26
wolfspraulJapanese like it, I think they use Japanese fonts in it23:26
rafacool, it works really nice in NN23:26
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